BA Announces 2013 College All-America Team

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• Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 8:49 am

  LOL This ought to shut up all the know-nothings who said Alderson didn’t sign Teddy Stankiewicz as a strategy to load up for 2014. I love validation. Best prep school pitcher on the board, and we didn’t sign him because Mets wanted him to take 60K under slot! 60K! LOL

  Plus the other second rounder Plawecki who I said was projected to be a backup, is now the invisible man with D’Arnaud here. LOL

  The Mets farm system is ranked higher yes, but not because of anyone these clowns drafted or developed. Take away Wheeler, D’Arnaud and Syndergaard, and where do they rank? Who did they develop?

  Thank goodness Minaya left them Beltran and Dickey. Without those two, this new front office would have three years of doing nothing and all this talk about new direction would be moot. Two terrible drafts and people are worried about losing the #11 pick to sign a top defensive gold glove outfielder with speed? Or even BJ Upton? LOL Ya gotta be kiddin me!
  • Metsie February 2, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    THIS!
• SheawasBetter86 February 2, 2013 at 8:51 am

  I want a complete change in philosophy from the mets in this draft. I’d really hate seeing another high school kid drafted and know it’ll be 5/6 yrs before he might actually help out. If that is the best option, then so be it, but I’m hoping for the actual best player available.

  Last year that would have been Hawkings or McCullers. The year before it would have been Matt Barnes or 15 other guys before Nimmo.

  They say drafting for need is a bad thing…okay, I’ll agree to not ask for a college outfielder, but if that’s the best available then I’d expect that to be picked. Damn the slot recommendation. The new CBA has ruined the draft; it has made teams worry about having money left for their tenth pick, instead of worrying about getting the best player with their first.

  After seeing what the Mets and Rays got via trades this off season for their star pitchers, I’d have to always pick the best pitcher available. Knowing that with tremendous pitching depth, I’d be able to secure a kings ransom in a trade to net me multiple already developed players without much chance of failure.

  That’s how I’d go about my draft strategy. Barring a supreme talent falling to me with a sweet can’t miss swing, I’d always look to the arm with the most upside; knowing that with a surplus of high ceiling arms, comes the ability to upgrade multiple positions in one single trade.
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 9:04 am

  Maniac

  That’s completely unfair! I’m not a Sandy lover but I understand he is rebuilding the entire organization. You can’t say take away Wheeler, Syndergaard, and d’Arnoud, then say thank Omar for leaving them Dickey and Beltran. It’s not like getting those players was as asking for them. I think he did an amazing job getting what he got for Beltran and Dickey (2 players I absolutely loved).

  I know he didn’t draft Wheeler or Syndergaard but certainly developed them and I would say the same for Harvey. I love Omar and his eye for talent but as a GM he was way to quick to pull the trigger on bringing up talent too soon.
  • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Sorry, but until I see evidence of building in one of their drafts that would instill confidence that they took the best players rather than players who has prearranged deals, I’m not buying, Sloats. Until I see evidence of developing in the form of one player they drafted making any impact on the team or stealing an everyday job, I’m not buying.

    I’m not saying he didn’t do well by trading Beltran and Wheeler, I’m saying that is not evidence of anything regarding their own drafting and developing.

    And don’t mention Matt Harvey and them in the same sentence. Harvey came up in mid-2012, just as I told Donal and Hitman he would the day he was drafted. I said Harvey would move through every minor league level within 1 1/2 years and that’s what he did. He was not developed but simply is a product of what happens when you DO take the best player on the board when it’s your turn to select.

    But I’m not going to applaud the Mets for having the 11th best minor league organization when the reason for that was only thanks to the net gains of Beltran and Wheeler. They haven’t developed anyone. Nobody. At least nobody that would make them worthy of a top ten tanked system. Their best position player is still Wilmer Flores and their best pitcher was still Matt Harvey.
    • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 9:47 am

      One more thing Sloats,

      I’ll tell you what is completely unfair. How about that post by Andre Dobie that was solely intended to say that Minaya left Alderson shit? Where was the outrage there? Was that post unfair? And yet it becomes an MMO Feature Post after it finally got pushed off the front page. Did Minaya leave Alderson shit?

      For all the people I’ve argued with here who tell me “nobody ever said that” or “your fighting a strawman” explain the purpose and intent of that post?
      • Trs86 February 2, 2013 at 9:51 am

        His opinion isn’t valid? I think it’s right in the middle. It certainly was far from great but not barren, which is what Depo has alluded to as well.
        • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 9:54 am

          So your saying that when a VP of player of development praises his system like all 29 other execs in his position, it’s evidence that their farm is a great system? LOL That’s rich.

          And you are one of those who ALWAYS jumps in and says show me one instance of anybody that ever said Alderson left the cupboard bare. Yet there you were defending the piece then and now. LOL Like I said, that’s rich.
      • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 10:05 am

        I read Andre’s piece to mean “shit” in relation to the Braves and Nats. And I would agree on that. Even if you factor in the bump the Nats got from drafting Strasburg and Harper, the Mets system over the same time period falls short.
    • Trs86 February 2, 2013 at 9:49 am

      There were many on draft day that criticized the Mets for reaching to pick Harvey, also keep in mind that Chris Sale was drafted after Harvey so the hindsighters that criticize every draft pick were there then too.
      • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 9:56 am

        Not in the MMO draft chat. I was there with 25 others and said I’d take either or because they would bot move fast. You weren’t even there so why even say anything about it?
        • ifthevanisrockin February 2, 2013 at 11:27 am

          because there is a big world outside that chat, and at the time, there was a lot of criticism of Harvey (essentially that he was a bit of a signable reach pick, and that there were other high-upside guys (but more expensive) that should have been taken instead.
          • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 11:30 am

            Well guess what? They were all wrong, and Harvey had one of the best debuts of any other pitcher in the last 10 years. Those who stood by the pick on day one, and those who said he’d be an impact player and in the majors by 2012, take a bow.
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 9:48 am

  I actually posed this question a while back. But where does the do the credit for DEVELOPMENT rest? I fully consider Wheeler as developed by the mets. If he stays same for Syndergaard and the outfielder they got in that trade. Just curious what your opinion is on this.

  I agree that we need to wait to see what these players turn out to be before we count our championship.
  • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 10:05 am

    The credit should be shared for Wheeler by Sabean who began the most critical part of any player’s development; transitioning to the pros, working on release points, instilling confidence, etc. All Mets did was advance him and some say he hit a brick wall in AAA.

    If D’Arnaud comes up in May like everyone says, Mets get ZERO credit for developing. I’ll give them partial credit like 2% for rehabbing him after missing the season. How can you credit Mets with D’Arnaud when he was already ranked #6 overall before he even put on a Mets uniform? You understand my point?

    You want to see what the Mets did in first year development with Nimmo and Cecchini? Check them out and judge the results. High school players drafted in their same class are already in AA and AAA. Neither of them advanced past Low-A and still have to make it to the FSL. Is that a sign of great drafting and developing?

    It’s still to early to make a final judgement, but this celebrating and talk of championships is the same crap I heard when we got Steve Henderson, Dan Norman, Doug Flynn and Rookie of the Year Pat Zachary the #1 prospect in the game too. We gave away the Cy Young for those guys too and an eventual Hall of Famer. So forgive me for being skeptical.
    • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 10:11 am

      Except that for Wheeler, it was said that he struggled with the Giants because they tried to change his pitching style. When he got to the Mets, he dumped what the Giants tried to get him to do and reverted to his old form. He was also only in high A when the Mets got him. So I give full development credit to the Mets for Wheeler.
      • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 11:07 am

        Come on guys. Stop trying to exaggerate everything.

        Wheeler pitched 27 inning for Mets with 1.7 walk rate and that means he’s fixed? Really? Only 27 innings?

        Lets ignore the fact his walk rate was 3.7 in AA and 4.4 in AAA and that was done in 149 innings. Is his walk rate improving or declining?

        You take a small sample size, err tiny sample size, and you want to say Mets get full credit for fixing him?

        And you say his walk rate went “way down”????

        Sorry but it did NOT go way down.

        Also there is this. His strikeout rates:

        10.7
        10.3
        9.1
        8.5

        Is that more fixing and development?

        We got a top pitcher who was highly regarded before he got to the Mets. Lets see how those walk and strikeout rates hold up in the majors before proclaiming any success and dishing out credit.

        All I know is that the Giants drafted a solid pitcher and that it took a star like Beltran to get him. Those are the only facts. The rest of the story has yet to be told.
        • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 11:33 am

          It’s more common than not for walk rates to increase and K rates to decrease as a pitching prospect progresses through the minors. So having Wheeler’s walk rate increase from St. Lucie to Buffalo is not unexpected. But to start out with a 5.8 BB/9 rate in the Sally league? C’mon!

          Here’s his BB/9 rate throughout the minors:

          5.8 — Giants A
          4.8 — Giants High A
          1.7 — Mets High A
          3.3 — Mets AA
          4.4 — Mets AAA

          A 4.4 walk rate at AAA is high but not as as bad as what it was with the Giants at the lower levels. And he only logged 33 innings at AAA.So if you’re going to dismiss his St Lucie walk rate because it came in only 27 innings, then you have to dismiss his AAA walk rate in 2012 because of the similarly small sample size. You can;t have it both ways.

          And, yes, it took a star like Beltran to get Wheeler. But I don’t believe Omar would or could have made the same deal. Omar always seemed to blink first in trades and would too readily accept marginal talent back or quantity vs. quality.

          BTW, when d’Arnaud makes his debut with the Mets, who will you give the development credit to?
          • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 12:20 pm

            And here we go. Another swipe at Omar that was initiated by the ones with the agenda.

            Did Omar blink first with Santana or Delgado trades, his two most significant?

            Why do hate him so much?

            Did he take a piss on your head or something?

            Always the people who scream agenda start in with the agendas.

            I present facts, and you present distortion.

            I give up with you fanatics. Yes, Alderson has transformed Wheeler into the next Tom Seaver. He took a crappy pitcher and turned him into a jaw dropping phenom who will have the best walk rate in the world and win 5 Cy Young s.

            Discussion over, you and Sandy win. Omar is a Latino POS. Everybody applaud.
            • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 12:37 pm

              Maniac, when you point out that Sandy had to trade a star to get Wheeler, your implication is that the previous GM is the one who should get credit for Wheeler. I spent one small paragraph telling you why he shouldn’t, and now you get all bent out of shape?

              As for the Santana trade, Johan had the Twins over a barrel and he practically wrote his own ticket to the Mets. He had vetoed an earlier trade deal the Twins had made with another team. And the Twins preference was to send Johan out of the AL. It’s not as if Omar drove a hard bargain to get him; he practically fell into Omar’s lap. Delgado was a pure salary dump. Plain and simple. No other team was willing to eat all that money. And the Mets paid for that contract with the last year being almost a total waste.

              I don’t hate Omar “so much” and if you had been reading my posts you’d know I said I’d rate him a 4 or 5 out of 10 and think he is terribly mediocre. I’m really glad he’s no longer GM, and couldn’t wait till they fired him. But I don’t “hate” him.

              And, LOL, no one is saying Wheeler will be a CY pitcher. Way to go with extreme exaggeration and hyperbole!
  • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 10:08 am

    I agree. Unless you get these players as already successful AAA players, they should be considered to be developed by the team that brings them through the upper levels.

    So, for Wheeler, drafting credit goes to the Giants,. Development credit goes to the Mets.
    • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 10:18 am

      So the fact he was already a top regarded pitching prospect and ranked #1 on the Giants had nothing to do with it? The Giants were trying to keep him from flexing his elbow awkwardly on breaking pitches which not only could jeopardize his longterm health, but he was tipping his pitches as well. He’ll get away with that in the minors, but not in the majors. And for you to discredit the number one MLB team in the last 10 years in pitcher development, wreaks of an agenda to me or just ignorance. Knocking he Giants development practices? LOL Wow. They are the best in baseball!
      • lol February 2, 2013 at 10:27 am

        “The Giants were trying to keep him from flexing his elbow awkwardly on breaking pitches which not only could jeopardize his longterm health, but he was tipping his pitches as well.”

        nonono. They did that to improve his control, but it ended up making it worse. Then when he came to the Mets he went back to his high school mechanics and his walk rate went way down. I’m gonna go ahead and give Zack Wheeler credit more than the Mets or the Giants.
      • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 10:31 am

        He was a #6 overall pick and a highly regarded prospect when he was drafted.That status isn’t going to change for the first year or two just because he struggles. And just because I said he struggled with the Giants doesn’t mean I am discrediting their entire development program. I’m just saying that in at least Wheeler’s case, the development credit should be given to the Mets.

        Also, the upper levels are just as critical as the lower ones. The jump to AA is considered the most difficult in the minors, and it’s always a balancing act trying to keep a prospect challenged but not overwhelmed. By the time Wheeler makes his Mets debut he will have pitched more innings in the Mets minor league system and at more levels than he did with the Giants.
      • Metsie February 2, 2013 at 5:06 pm

        If you haven’t guessed yet Maniac…..Metro and LOL are the same guy!
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 10:00 am

  I saw that post differently. I thought it was just explaining the different philosophies. Again, in the old school eyeball way of scouting, Omar had virtually no peers. He really has an eye for YOUNG baseball talent, especially in the foreign markets. But I thought Doobs did a good job of explaining (if I’m remembering the post correctly) the different types of approaches. I especially liked the part about the different types of personalities and how certain players sort will themselves into something special.

  Again I love Omar but his talent was NOT development
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 10:50 am

  Metro

  I agree completely with you. Wheeler Syndergaard, like Harvey are Met developed. d’Arnaud is 100% Toronto developed. No sharing credit with any on wheeler, especially since the mets corrected his issues and absolutely no taking development credit for d’Arnaud if he’s nearly majors ready. The only way to take credit for an advanced level prospect is if you rehab or correct a major flaw that turns them completely around.
  • Bayonne Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 11:05 am

    I’m sorry but i researched and Zack Wheeler has over 400 innings pitched in Giants organization, was rated by Baseball America while in their organization and comes here, pitches one season, advances and you want to say the Mets developed him?

    I’m sorry but making adjustments on a player you just acquired as being claimed here by some is NOT developing the player over a few years. Fixing a bump in the road is not the same as developing a player over several years.

    That’s just flat out wrong. Oh and somebody said he will wind up with more innings pitched in the Mets farm system than in the Giants? WRONG AGAIN. I will bet you $100.00 that kid will be with the Mets long before he ever sees his 400th inning in the minors.

    He was developed by San Francisco.
    • Met Maniac February 2, 2013 at 11:10 am

      Bay, where are you getting that info on the 400 innings from? I can without bias tell you that is grossly inaccurate, but I stand by what your point is and that the Giants drafted and developed a solid pitcher who is still developing and that it took a near hall of famer to get him.
      • Bayonne Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 11:12 am

        Yeah Maniac and went back and was counting the Total Innings pitched in the Baseball Ref statistics sheet, it’s confusing and I went through it fast. My mistake
    • Bayonne Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 11:11 am

      my mistake Sloats, i misread his statistics and he does not have 400 IP in Giants Org. It appears it’s only 146? If so then I’d have to say the Mets could have some hand in developing but you still can’t dismiss the Giants part in it either. And forget the bet because i was wrong about the minors IP. But I still think he’s not long for the majors (like THIS year and EARLY) based on everything i read here and without ever seeing him pitch.
      • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm

        Nope. Can’t just cancel it. I accept your bet. Actually, Wheeler’s already logged more ML IPs and more levels for the Mets than the Giants. So pay up!
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 11:51 am

  I said earlier. d’Arnaud is Toronto developed. No buts about that.
  • Metro12 February 2, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Sloatsburg, so what about the Phillies? D’Arnaud has actually played more innings in the minors for the Phillies than Toronto.

    However, because D’Arnaud has spent significant time in the Jays system, and because they are the team he was with when he got to AAA, I’d give the Jays all the credit.

    At some point you have to streamline and generalize things or it becomes an endless pointless exercise trying to attribute blame or credit. Which is why I say that at this point in time, the major league club is all Sandy’s team. But you just know if they get off to a good start, Sandy’s critics will find a way to give all the credit to his predecessor.
• SheawasBetter86 February 2, 2013 at 11:55 am

  This whole argument is dumb…who cares? What’s the difference who developed them?

  Sandy got them into the system. You can’t take that away from him. So if Reyes was traded for a great outfielder, you’d thank Steve Phillips???

  Come on, just be happy they’re here.
  • Trs86 February 2, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    This whole argument is dumb…who cares? What’s the difference who developed them?
    Bingo
  • Metsie February 2, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    Well f t doesn’t matter wy are we constantly haring about how great the new FO has developed players compared to the last FO?

    Either it matters and it’s worth mentioning or it doesn’t and some are just grabbing at straws to promote thier Sandy agenda…

    Which one you want to go with here?
• Sloatsburg Mets Fan February 2, 2013 at 2:57 pm

  Metro

  I give the Jays credit (and for that matter the Mets too) more so than the phillies because I CAN’T STAND THE FILTHIES!!!!

  Trs & Sheawasbetter

  Pipe down! I like the question. JK!