7
2013
Alderson: The Future Is Not That Far Off
An article by Craig Lerner
While talking to reporters at a luncheon at Citi Field, Sandy Alderson said that the future of the Mets is almost at hand and that they can become very competitive, very soon with just a move or two.
“We’re getting to the point where we can be in the mix,” Alderson said on Monday. “I don’t want anybody to believe this is a long-term project that has no possible realization anytime soon. We’re at the point where we can make significant improvement in a hurry.”
He believes that signing a player of Bourn’s caliber could help change the franchise’s perception around the league and that negotiations are still ongoing.
Can adding a player like Bourn change the perception of the franchise just like that? What are the odds? Are they better than playing at http://www.casinodino.com?
“I don’t think it’s a leap of faith to think we can be very good,” Alderson said. “It’s not that far off. This is not one of those things where, ‘Okay, gee, they’re two, three, four years away.’ No, we’ve got the currency, which is the young talent, to be in play for some of these things and we’re not that far away.”
It sounds like Alderson feels confident that the team’s minor league system, which has moved up in recent rankings by ESPN, MLB and BA, is at a point where he can deal some parts to fill other voids and organizational needs.
It may have sounded far-fetched when Alderson said the team would be ready to contend in 2014 back when he first took the reins. But one must admit that there are now many tell-tale signs that the team is in the midst of possible reversal of misfortunes after four straight losing seasons. Spearheaded by trades of popular players for two of the best prospects in baseball, along with the development of many low level prospects he inherited from the previous front office, it all seems to be coming together for the Mets.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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Without more run producers in this lineup it’s a pipe dream.
That Sandy Alderson! What a character. This was another one of his jokes, right?
I loved:
Sandy Alderson said that the future of the Mets is almost at hand and that they can become very competitive, very soon with just a move or two.
Yes, if those 2 players are named Walter Johnson and Ty Cobb
I agree with SA.
I have zero allegiance with him, or against him, but I DO think we very well could be a couple of strategical transactions away from being “players” in the postseason mix.
Since I dont have any say in what deals are made, or not, I dont get into hating, or criticizing, the front office of any sports team Ive been a fan of. Its just wasted emotion.
Its obvious that the people that do make the decisions are, in their minds, doing what is best, if not only for the team, but for their own future existence in employment with any other organization.
But as a fan, year after year, I have to believe that the product we are putting out there has the talent to compete…..or else whats the use of watching?
easy….u dont have to watch…
why believe when reality and your beliefs dont match?
The quality of the pitching staff will ultimately determine whether and when the Mets will contend.
And it goes beyond the trio of Harvey – Wheeler – Niese at the front of the rotation going forward but also torwards how soon the Mets manage to build a strong bullpen. And the Mets do have a lot of potential in that area, especially thanks to their mounting depth.
Come to think of it, I guess I´ll have to write something more in-depth about it…
Definately, if those 3 have decent years and so do Gee, and Santana, and our accumulation of BP misfits can “gel” into a cohesive unit, the skys the limit.
I know it may be a big “IF”, but thats why I watch & root for our Mets.
Not to mention “wildcard” Marcum…..
I hope this not another bad joke. I’m running out of patience.
The time for action is at hand. At some point he has to stop talking and start doing.
I’d still prefer a power RF to Bourn. If you can get a 30 HR guy that plays a decent right, I’ll live with MDD or Kirk or even ‘spin in CF.
That makes two of us, but it’s kind of late in the game for that. At this point any improvement would be a plus.
There isn’t one of those available on the FA market, unless you consider Granderson for next year. Why not get Bourn and then trade Familia and some others to Minny for the Hammer? I know, it’s a dream, but it would be nice.
Because I don’t think Bourn is the answer some people make him out to be.
Me either. To me it’s just a version and much more expensive to say the least of what I hope Kirk or DD can be. To me we have in house candidates for the LH speedy CF that strikes out a lot. Don’t we have like 3 of those if you count V-spun? What we need is that RH power hitter. If they can actually afford both? sure. If signing Bourn keeps them from getting what they actually do need? All kinds of pissed off I will be.
exactly how I feel. In a vacuum, Bourn is fine to bring in. But teams, certainly not the Mets, don’t work in a vacuum.
limited resources goes for $ and trade chips. If you spend on player X, that might mean no more money if player Y comes along. And if you have say 3 good trade chips, once they are gone, they can’t be ‘spent” again.
so better make sure when you spend, it is smart spending.
per baseball reference, the estimated payroll without options but including arb and such for 2014 is 56.4 million. If they cannot sign Bourn and still look to add a bopper for the OF, then this team is toast.
Fair enough. I don’t think he is the final piece, but I see him as being an integral cog going forward. There really is no “this guys fixes it all” out there. Even Greinke or Hamilton don’t do that. It’s all pieces to a larger puzzle and while some will argue worth/risk/value/etc against Bourn, I am in the camp that he would be an overall positive to the team. I am not willing to go all hope and a prayer with Kirk or MDD. I don’t see their K rates dropping so significantly to where they are more than useful on the Major league level. MDD as a defensive replacement? Sure. But that’s about it at this point. Show me a 20% K rate of less from him, and then we can start talking warranted playing time.
Ya, but Bourn has issues with Ks as well and is significantly older than both Kirk and MDD. What is he bringing here that makes this deal a must do?
What would Bourn bring that Kirk or den Dekker cannot?
Speed, exceptional CF defense, and a legitimacy to the team that they aren’t filled with AAA outfielders?
I’m talking a 3 yr deal ish, not saying go get bourn at whatever cost
Every move you make, makes another one possible.
A signing of Bourn makes the Mets more attractive to lets say Hunter Pence next year. Now i’m not saying you need to go sign every free agent – but let’s be realistic here you need something to get them to listen to you and you’ll always need free agents, its just a matter of not signing just to sign.
Why do you think Wright wants Bourn here? Just to get a free agent? Or because he makes them better today and makes them more attractive to others tomorrow?
I just don’t think Bourne makes this an attractive stop. And I do not want a slob like Pence, who would swing at a napkin if it floated down from the stands.. Bourne is nothing special. I do not want them giving him silly money. I want them to bring in disciplined hitters.
He’s not a must sign. But he is significantly better than MDD or Kirk. Bourn K’s once ever 4.95 PAs. Kirk, once every 3.89 PA, and MDD once ever 3.2. I’m not writing home to Mom and saying Wooo Hooo, check out that 4.95 K rate!, but it is so much better than Kapt K and MDD(K).
Plus, he’s a Gold Glove CF. The legend of MDD’s glove means nothing if he can only be used as a backup OF who’s brought in for defensive purposes.
All in all, we all make our thought process based on what value is coming in vs. the cost. I think it’s justifiable, you and TRS don’t. Fair enough.
You make some good points, but Kirk and MDD can still learn pitch recognition. Is Bourn going to get better at that before his legs give out?
Also, MDD brings more pop.
I’m not saying it will cripple the Mets if they do bring him in, just that it isn’t the best of the available options.
Like you said, we just disagree on the cost/reward analysis and probably not by much.
Let’s just say it’s a 3 year deal with some sort of 4th year option AND the Mets do not lose their 1st rounder. Because realistically if it’s a longer deal and they lose their 1st – i’d be shocked.
From the outside looking in, does signing Michael Bourn make your team more attractive to potential free agents? Even lower market guys who may get very similar offers from a lot of teams…. the answer is yes. You know if the Mets offered just say Cody Ross the same exact deal, does Ross choose Arizona or the Mets? Having a guy like Bourne gives you an edge in those negotiations.
You have to take risks, and we as fans hope they are calculated ones. I mean heck look at the signing of Pedro. Pedro on the field was not worth his deal. He just wasn’t. But he brought legitimacy to the franchise and made the Mets a more attractive place to play when they hoped to sell guys like Beltran.
Not every minor leaguer can be turned into an every day player. I personally do not think Kirk will turn that corner. I like him, and hope he does – but I’m not willing to bet the next 3 years on him.
If the Mets have Kirk in CF and he fails, then the Mets are right back where they started in 2014 – in need of a CF and RF. If Bourn hits like Torres he STILL could be more valuable to the Mets through defense alone.
You want pop in RF right? So do I. I think the best way to build in the NL is strong defense up the middle (C, SS, 2B, CF) and pop at your corners. But to get pop in RF you are most likely sacrificing defense. Having a CF like Bourn eases that burden a bit.
It’s easier to upgrade your OF when you need 1 upgrade (depending on Duda) not when you need 2 or 3.
He hit .274 last year. I am not so sure Den Dekker might not manage tht, at a much lower cost. Yes he steals some bases. So what. Reyes stole bases. I say save your money. If it was a one year deal I would not care. But I do not want to tie up serious money over years with this guy.
must admit that there are now many tell-tale signs that the team is in the midst of possible reversal of misfortunes after four straight losing seasons”
Ummmm…. Ok. Care to point one out of the “Many” signs craig??? Other than the hype of a few prospects, what are the other signs? Don’t forget, you can be the #1 prospect in all baseball, but that doesn’t guarantee success in the field. Injuries come into play, mental aspect of the game, how can these kids handle NY and their hype, there are many things that can derail a player’s confidence that i am sure BA won’t tell you in their scout reports. Keep your fingers cross, but at some point, your love for all FO things at some point gotta take a backseat
Those same questions should apply to any player who comes here. There have been plenty of veterans who have come here via free agency and trades who failed.
Yeap. don’t forget many, MANY, MANY more prospects and young “Studs” who have come here and failed MISERABLY… i am thinking, miserably as hell… hell, not only do they don’t live up to the hype, the don’t even make it to the bigs…
No, I’d say our big prospects failed at the same rate as our big name acquisitions do.
There are also 2 things to remember
1) The Mets have not been renowned for their developmental system for a while now. If you aren’t selecting or developing your farm hands properly, they are going to fail.
2) When a prospect fails, you can drop him and move on at minimal damage to the org as a whole (if you build your farm right). A big money veteran on the other hand, is an anchor on your roster.
WTF!!!!!!!!!! Are you serious!?!?!!?!?!? Since the seaver trade we’ve been getting BURNED big time by our prospects and/or young talent, you’ve got to be kidding me, the only reason you’re saying this is because you do have an AGENDA against FA since your lord doesn’t like to sign any good ones you think that’s the way to go, it’s pathetic and absurd to even think like that, throughout the history we get like 30+ draft picks, imagine how many of those have really pan out,. you can name a handful of player who have make it and made some contribution, but i can’t believe you just said we’ve been getting burned by FA at the same rate as our prospects… I just can’t believe you just said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Since the seaver trade we’ve been getting BURNED big time by our prospects and/or young talent, you’ve got to be kidding me”
And we haven’t been burned by big name veterans?
Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Jason Bay, Roberto Alomar, Brett Saberhagen (yes, he was terrific in 1994, but he played less than 80 games in 4 years here), George Foster, Dave Kingman’s return and on and on
And you act like we never produced any good players. Strawberry, Gooden, Alfonso, Brooks, Hundley, Mookie, Wright, Reyes and plenty of examples.
And of course, the fact you and so many others willfully ignore, when you build your farm right, a busted prospect really doesn’t hurt you that much. When your big money, long term deal free agent busts, you are screwed.
Don’t forget good ole Mo Vaughn. Rusty would be so upset.
Stepping into the actual discussion here. It’s clear that, baring some exceptions that is just the nature of the game, it takes the right combination of both to build and sustain a successful team that actually wins a championship. You need a great farm system to produce, you need the right big name players signed and to produce, you need the right under the radar signings to produce…
This really isn’t a one way or the other type of deal.
‘Yeap, and god forbid you mention the good FA we’ve had right? You only seem to point out the bad deals and the good prospects we’ve had in 50 years… Short list of prospects who made it, and you’ve mentioned all the bust we’ve had in FA aside from Bay, Perez and castillo and appier if you’d like. But hey, you don’t have an agenda
Lets be fair and list all the great big name long term FA signed that worked out.
Beltran,
What about Pedro? Do we count that as a great signing that worked?
These are serious questions.
Beltran did a great job here. Carter and Hernandez were valuable pieces of a championship team, who were acquired by trading good young talent. Piazza was a monster.
I’m not against going after big time veterans. What I am against is this notion that they are some panacea.
“Prospects don’t guarantee winning. Just look at Martinez and Generation K!” as if we’ve never produced top notch players from our farm or all of our free agents were some how raving successes.
TRS is right, you need balance. But first, you start internally. use free agents and such to supplement and fill in holes. A strong farm also gives you a safety net.
Donal, perhaps you can help me out. Lets set the record as since the last championship. Lets list any big name long-term FA signed that worked out. Not trades but FA.
I got Beltran as the obvious one.
I’d count Pedro, since he wasn’t just an on the field signing.
Yeah, I am torn on Pedro. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the signing. Just saying was it one that we would actually count as “working out”? I guess I still would. Now I need a list to see who else.
Eh, why do I care what a GM says?
Beacuse you are always defending what he does.
What does that have to do with what he says?
Et tu, Brute?
I no more always defend Alderson than you always agree with the super hero group.
Because you want it both ways. You always say that it’s GM speak and to never believe what he says but if anyone ever has anything negative to say you run around replying to every persons comment defending “The Plan”.
Actually I am incredibly consistent when it comes to GM talk. He said something positive here, don’t care. He said something stupid before, don’t care. He said something negative, don’t care…
As for defending the plan, I still do believe that the plan that is being carried out is appropriate for the situation that was presented. I haven’t agreed with every move and I am waiting on the Bourn deal because it has bad written all over it.
Put hey thanks for playing.
You always say that it’s GM speak and to never believe what he says but if anyone ever has anything negative to say you run around replying to every persons comment defending “The Plan”.”
Salty, THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am still trying to figure out why me defending some of the GM’s moves has anything to do with caring what a GM says in public.
If you guys can explain that to me I will concede the point.
Because you relentless comment on every comment here that has any touch of negativity towards the front office. Even after people beg you to leave them alone, for over the last year you obsessively defend everything at all cost.
You can’t stalk defending his plan and then say I don’t care what he says, you need to be consistent.
AH, my wishywashy friend. You see what you want to see as do ALL of us here. Anyone not agreeing with you is defending the plan at all cost. Of course I come to a blog to debate. As for people asking me to leave them alone? LOL. All Alex has to do is ask and I will never reply to another one of his comments. He enjoys the banter and has for almost a decade.
How am I wishy-washy,, give me one piece of evidence to support this. I have always been firm in my belief that they got 2 years to to get the house in order and then they need to start moving forward. 2 years are up, house is in order and now they are wasting time and shorting their window of opportunity by not building around the young guys they brought in. I have been nothing but consistent and you know that.
You gave them 2 years, I gave them 3. Until the end of those 3 years I will still be preaching patience. If you want to attack, that’s fine, I will look at each move individually remain calm and preach patience. That’s what blogs are for, differing opinions. I am not saying that people shouldn’t be negative. But that being said, if you are on a blog with a reply button then why shouldn’t you expect someone to reply with a converse opinion? Perhaps after next off-season if they are still in this situation then someone else will be here to talk me off the negativity ledge as well.
He’s right TRS. I call you out on that all the time. What you call wishy-washy is just a person being objective. You keep saying you are not biased but your own words prove otherwise.
Maniac, you and I both know that objective is subjective based on the mindset and the interpretation of the person being objective. I am sure we ALL think we are being objective. Otherwise, then we actually would have an agenda.
You always say that it’s GM speak and to never believe what he says but if anyone ever has anything negative to say you run around replying to every persons comment defending “The Plan”.”
What part of that you didn’t understand???? He pretty much sums up what you do here, ALL THE TIME… you defend the guy to no end when we put him on blast, yet you always come up with the it’s GM talk comment when you know he’s lying… can’t have it both ways, either you support the NY METS or your american idol sandy…
Alex, do you remember when you were bashing Omar? Do you remember when commenters were killing him for everything he said in the media? Who was one of the first ones to “defend” him by saying I didn’t give a damn what he said then either?
This isn’t anything new and certainly isn’t an Alderson thing. I rarely ever give a damn what any GM says to the media. They have a clear agenda and telling the truth isn’t one of them. The ONLY thing they are trying to do is to make their team look better. Period.
As for defending Alderson, the only thing I have tried to convey is patience. Time is indeed running out and following the 2013 off-season I may be in your frame of mind as well.
Yes I remember when Alex was bashing Omar. I was bashing Omar right along with him. But all of a sudden any criticism of Alderson is apparently taboo and uncalled for. Why is that?
And just because you need 3-4 years to make a goddam decision on Alderson, it doesn’t make the ones who gave him 3 offseasons wrong. Take your sweet as time, just stop pressing your inability to discern a 3 year track record on the rest of us.
Why? Couldn’t you say that you are pressing your judgement on us? Has your complaining stopped some of us from saying there’s a plan? Has my saying there is a plan stopped you from complaining? It’s a blog, no one is really going to influence anyone’s opinion.
As for being taboo to bash the GM? Since when? Has anyone said you shouldn’t bash him? I think the only issue is when you get called some stupid name for having a different opinion.
To me being called a name for agreeing with a move or direction set is no more idiotic than when those idiots try to come in and say that someone isn’t a fan because they don’t agree with the GM. It works both ways.
I’m not passing judgement on anyone. You are the one that comes after ANYONE who has something negative to say about Alderson. You and your buddy begin grouping us in an attempt to make us look like clowns just because you disagree. That’s why we do the same to you in defense. It wasn’t like this when Minaya became GM, we all disagreed here with no bannings or crap like that. This all started after Alderson and because of his steadfast cult followers like you. And you can deny it all you want. You are so full of it when you say you were giving him 3 years and it sounds just like Jessep saying he would call out Alderson if he didn’t see a revamped outfield. Keep on genuflecting.
Come off of it Maniac. I don’t think any group can say that one group started it and the other group was innocent and just defending themselves.
I mean listen to yourself. You are getting on me for “grouping” in the same paragraph that you call me part of a cult of followers. LOL.
As for not being like this when Omar was GM? I am guessing that is true to an extent. I wasn’t here. What I do know is that Omar faced vicious attacks too and there were many to blame and defend him as well. In fact the final results ended up with the MMO taking off and blogs like mine to form.
Just so we’re clear if you wish to quote me, please at least try to be accurate?
Here is the exact quote that began this entire opinion that you hang on.
“If the 2013 roster looks like the 2012 roster then I may have to join Joe D in criticizing Alderson”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/08/mmo-crossfire-sandy-aldersons-2013-plan.html
I further explained that I didn’t want to see Bay and Torres penciled in as starting OFs or Thole as the C – so those things actually happened. I never suggested I need to see an all star outfield. I said, wait let me get it
“If the 2013 roster looks like the 2012 roster then I may have to join Joe D in criticizing Alderson”
Well you can support the Mets and Sandy at the same time, I know it’s hard for you to understand that. I just don’t understand how people can support working to bring in all these young kids and doing nothing to support them. It just makes no sense to me unless the trus answer still is no money.
You and I have already been over this. I think they are waiting one more year, waiting until Wheeler and TDA are here and there is surplus cash to spend. To me this off-season wasn’t it. To you it was.
That being said, I am sure you also remember me writing post clamoring for the Upton brothers. I was fine with adding long-term solutions this off-season but in reality considering what those two got, it was a pipedream for this off-season. My hopes are that in the future that will no longer be the case.
Here’s my thing, i do agree you have to have the right combination, what you guys fail to see is how it’s easier to acqurie FA who are good to be faces of the franchise, than to bank all your eggs on a prospect, in 1983 we made the deal for keith hernandez right? Why? Because he being a veteran GOOD player he would take all the pressure from Straw coming in, it’s easier for a prospect (no matter how great he is) to come into a situation where he doesn’t have to be the man right away, if anything helps his development in the bigs because even if he losses a game, it’s not the end of the world because he’s not the guy leading the charge, by bringing wheeler and d’arnaud without any help around them (wheeler more) you’re basically asking them to change the fortunes of the franchise, putting more pressure on them than they should have, which in most cases lead to them bombing out than becoming good.
I know you disagree but do you think that might be one of the reasons they re-signed Wright?
so now david wright is keith hernandez? I know you are not actually saying it, but i am asking?? Are you comparing a guy who had big time success, was a leader, a winner, a great clutch hitter with david allen wright? who’s greatest accomplish is spraying champagne on fans 8 years ago?? Please tell me that’s not what you’re mplying here???
No that’s what you are implying.
What I am replying to is this:
“it’s easier for a prospect (no matter how great he is) to come into a situation where he doesn’t have to be the man right away, if anything helps his development in the bigs because even if he losses a game, it’s not the end of the world because he’s not the guy leading the charge”
Like it or not, and I think we both will agree, all the pressure after Wright signing the big contract will be on Wright. TDA doesn’t have to be the man in the lineup. He is looked at as the #3 behind Wright and Davis. Wheeler doesn’t have to be the #1 right away, he might have more pressure, but having Harvey and Niese already here and maybe Johan when he comes up should also allow that.
So I guess what I am saying is that Johan and Wright are guys that are already here to take pressure off those guys.
TRS, while i get that, johan will be gone this year, and we’ve seen how wright performs under pressure, you’d really enthrust these young studs under him? When things go well, everyone and their mother praises wright, when things go south, you don’t hear a peep about the ambassador.. double standard and hypocritical mets fans, and also this, wright signed the biggest contract in mets history, keith was brought in a trade and the clubhouse was his, when he struggles then who players will tend to?? BIG difference between him and keith, keith from day one said i am not here to lose, i am here to win and played his ass off, wright? Juggling to first base and showing off the manager while losing every year are not sign of leadership, just him being a long tenure player on a losing franchise
Alex you and others will never let Wright go without criticism. LOL. You criticize him when he does well. I don’t think with the contract signed there will be a shortage of criticism for Wright if he doesn’t perform.
Yet either way, as fans do you think they are more likely to blame TDA for the offense’s failure or Wright if indeed it does fail?
actually, Wright being signed as a mentor/veteran support to build around is very analgous to picking up a Hernandez in 1983. Someone to give credibility to a young team coming up. They just happened to have him on hand already instead of signing him. And given his age/vteran status, bourn would fit the bill too.
and yes, at this stage, Wright is a very comparable level player to hernandez was when they brought him in. At the same age too, which should be an indication that Wright is not guaranteed to fall into the abyss starting next year!
People also like to focus on the intangibles with these guys, overlooking (though it has been 30 years) that there was a reason Keith was traded at age 29, while he was performing well, that went beyond his on-field skills.
ifthevan, you obviously didn’t see keith hernandez play…. BTW, different era and all, if keith played in this era, there’s no doubt in my mind he’d be a 350 hitter with 15-25 HR and easily 100+ RBI every year….
I am not sure about TODAY but if he had been playing during the roid era, he may have hit 60 HR and hit .450… I am not sure Keith ever cared about protecting his body.
I like Wright but I like the Mets more and comparing Wright to Keith at this point is a little far fetched no matter what the numbers say. Yes Alex, I said that. I will however will set the world back at ease that I would put Wright ahead of Straw so at least you have something to complain about Alex
Keith Hernandez coming to the NY Mets was one of the luckiest things for the team. Some make it sound like a genius move by Cashen when if fact, Hernandez fell in his lap. He fought with his manager Whitey Herzog, and it’s well documented. St. Louis wanted him unloaded and the Mets were in the right place at the right time.
Yes, I saw him play, I remember the trade, not selectively, but lets keep bringing up how Wright had words with Collins, while in the dugout, because he wanted to stay in the game and take one for the team.
This is just pure bullshit. No response is needed.
And yet, you did.
The mind, it boggles.
oh wow you got me! You took out time just to post that useless reply? Go back to doing what you do best, long-winded posts that serve no other purpose than your own.
Not until you posted your useless and completely contradictory response.
There are no mirrors in your house, are there?
To save you time Kay
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/08/mets-trades-of-the-past-keith-hernandez.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19830618&id=jsJaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=I1kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6508,784100
Wow Kay…. Just wow.. I get the whole dimples and all, but come on… Even you should know this is balloney. Come on..
They traded for Hernandez, got him. That’s it. And they were all ecstatic back then too so who the HELL are they kidding.
I noticed the 3 musketeers this morning have taken on a new approach. Trying to rationalize Frank Cashen’s tenure as some sort of argument to defend Alderson against Minaya.
- The Bullshitter
- The guy who called you a you know what and speaks out of both sides of his mouth
- and Wright’s nanny
“so now david wright is keith hernandez?”
Haven’t seen Wright testify about cocaine trafficking, so no.
“Are you comparing a guy who had big time success, was a leader, a winner, a great clutch hitter with david allen wright?”
Simple question, when did Hernandez demonstrate this “leadership”? Was it during game 6 of the World series when he popped up and went back to the club house to pack up and have a beer? Was it the red hot .231 batting average with that monstrous .231 slugging he put up in that World Series?
Did Hernandez have a lot of big hits? Yes, he did. He also had way more opportunities than Wright by benefit of playing on better teams.
well, to be consistent, you have to consider the rest of the team, right? Since Wright supposedly was a product of his surroundings, didn’t it help Keith to have 2 rabbits in front of him on base all the time, and being protected by Strawberry and Carter (and more)?
hey, just trying to keep a levelplaying field here!
Again, keith was consistent throughout his career even after being traded, check wright’s number since 2008 and get back at me… Please , do not be disrespectful and compare keith hernandez with david wright… Please….
I don’t know that comparing Wright and Hernandez is really smart – different players in different era with a much different team
but if I wanted to
In 17 years:
8 time Top 20 MVP, with 1 MVP
5 time All Star
11 time Gold Glove
2 Silver Sluggers
In 9 years:
6 time Top 20 MVP, with 0 MVP
6 time All Star
2 time Gold Glove
2 Silver Sluggers
Keith joined the Mets past his prime though. So if you compare their stats in a Mets uniform, its not really fair.
True you can’t straight up compare different players of different eras.
But this is nostalgia for the sake of trashing the present.
And of course, silly empty cliches like “veteran leadership” tend to show up on my radar.
I still have yet to see anyone show me where Hernandez demonstrated any real leadership.
it doesn’t show up on your radar cuz you were not even around or old enough to be conscience of the Mets 80s run. What an IGNORANT thing to say but coming from the source it’s to be expected. The BULLSHIT that comes from these people is epic. Epic Fail.
Here’s a little video specifically about Keith’s Leadership back then, which i was around and old enough to witness and understand. Those are intangibles that help drive the statistics that a loser like this worships.
http://metsblog.com/video/video-keith-hernandezs-leadership-in-1986/
Cue arrogant, snarky response.
Hey, you looked something up. I’m so proud of you. Another person here who has benefited from interacting with me.
Funny how you never mentioned it before when I have repeatedly questioned the myth.
Now, for the video itself. I do like how he worked with pitchers to strategize for hitters. Really great.
But, does that make him a great leader? Does that negate the fact that he had a reputation for slacking? Did he take any of the younger players and teach them how to be a pro? Did he teach guys how to balance being a baseball player and a party fiend? Did he reach out to guys coming from other teams to acclimate them? Did he ever stay late with guys in a slump and help them work on their game?
Because those are things I’ve heard Beltran and Wright and Pedro doing.
You harp all the time on Wright leaving Murphy on 3rd but won’t acknowledge Hernandez popping up in Game 6 and then going to pack up and have a beer. Getting mad at Wright for what you perceive as slacking, but giving Hernandez a pass when it got so bad, he was shipped off a World series contender to a division rival.
You’ve chosen to bash Wright by holding up a Keith Hernandez that simply didn’t exist. Hernandez was a terrific player, an intricate part of the 86 team and probably a borderline HoF. I think he does a great job breaking down hitting and fielding as an announcer. But, you have to take the good with the bad. To do otherwise is to diminish the man himself.
JesseP, again, please, i know you’re an idiot who is goo goo gaga over stats and numbers, i get it, but trust me when i tell you this, it was a totally different era, nowadays numbers are being put up at a ridiculous pace, numbers that keith had were good enough to indulge him in the HOF, he’s what we call a borderline HOF, imo he should be in, he brought to the mets something different, A WINNING ATTITUDE, something the mets lacked for most of the early 80′s, you cannot compare what he did for the franchise even if it was in the latter year of his career, imo the best defensive 1B i’ve ever seen, a great clutch hitter, a guy who didn’t shy away from pressure instead embrace it, a guy who imho i’d put money down to come trough for the team, wright is NOTHING like him. please stop it.. i am for once just asking you to shut the HELL up. you didn’t see this guy play nor know about the history of the mets during the 80′s, do not compare the 2.
“what you guys fail to see is how it’s easier to acqurie FA ”
Yes, its easy. At first. But what happens when those guys don’t pan out? Buy more guys?
And just because it is easy, doesn’t mean it is right.
“Because he being a veteran GOOD player he would take all the pressure from Straw coming in”
You mean after we already had some good young players either here or ready to make their debut? Keep in mind, when they had him for 95 games in 1983, they still finished well under .500. In fact, they were probably worse with him that year.
He wasn’t some magic pill that fixed everything.
“it’s easier for a prospect (no matter how great he is) to come into a situation where he doesn’t have to be the man right away,”
Doesn’t that apply to anyone? Couldn’t we also say that Beltran rebounded from a “disappointing” 2005 to a stellar 2006 because Wright had matured into a better player and Delgado was here to take some pressure off?
“you’re basically asking them to change the fortunes of the franchise, putting more pressure on them than they should have, which in most cases lead to them bombing out than becoming good.”
Ya, you can never ask a young pitcher to turn around the Mets. That would be crazy.
I agree it’s a team game and one player doesn’t fix everything, but the 1983 Mets were 22-36 before Keith arrived and 46-58 the rest of the way.
Who says prospects are going to fail on the Mets and not another team.Oakland acquired 3 starting players this off season and not one of them was a free agent. Beane made 3 trades, prospects are like cigarettes in jail, you keep prospects you want to build around and then trade some for pieces you need as apposed to spending a ton in free agency. You get younger controllable players through trades guys. They will add through free agency, but that is not it, they will get the key players to add to the team through trades and to do that you need a deep strong farm.
So what he is saying is if he signs Bourn it is a piece that will help towards next seasons playoff run. He will trade for a right fielder with power next season, yes I am sticking with Stanton in right field for the Mets next year, but it could be another player, it will be someone that fills the hole though. He can then sign a starting pitcher to fill Santanas spot and add a closer. Mind you the payroll will still be around what it is. He is not saying they are gonna make a run this year, although it is possible.
Next off season the Mets will have a top ten farm system with prospects to trade, and money to spend. They will be a playoff team next year. You can not rush this process, he is doing a very good job.
Don’t listen to anything Sandy says. Just look at what he’s done:
He’s jettisoned albatross contracts of underperforming players, eating tons of salary in the process. These players would have been a drag on a team which already had plenty of holes.
He’s avoided long-term free agent signings which could have become additional albatross contracts.
He’s put an emphasis on the farm system, restocking it with elite players.
He was the driving force behind modifying Citi Field’s fences, making the park more neutral and friendlier to both their own hitters and free agents.
He shored up the catching position, which has been a weakness ever since Piazza left.
He did stumble with the bullpen, but seems to have learned his lesson and is approaching 2013 in a much smarter way.
And he’s had relative peanuts to spend.
I like the direction the team has been going in. I don’t feel they are too far off, and 2013 can be a very competitive season, if not a playoff-caliber one.
He’s jettisoned albatross contracts of underperforming players, eating tons of salary in the process. These players would have been a drag on a team which already had plenty of holes.
OMG, that might be the most obstinate, ignorant, uninformed, over the top comment in MMO history!!!
Underperforming?
Dickey, Pagan, Beltran, Reyes > Marcum, Nieuwenhuis, Baxter, Tejada
LOL
Metro wants to win his World Series in Las Vegas and Binghamton. Those don’t count, Peter Pan.
OMG, that might be the most obstinate, ignorant, uninformed, over the top comment in MMO history!!!
That clearly describes what you just said.
What about “eating tons of salary in the process” don’t you understand? Need a dictionary?
Alderson ate no salary (or ate just crumbs) with Beltran, Reyes, Pagan and Dickey.
He ate TONS with Bay, Castillo, and Ollie.
LOL indeed!
Maniac, this guy has no idea what he’s talking about…. move on before you catch stupid
Seems like he’s hungrier than Pomes. All he talks about is eating. He must be Fred’s accountant.
Yeah Maniac, ignore that clown. He’s about right up there as the most steadfast worshipper of The Father, Son, & Holy Ghost over the Mets as anyone. Ohhhh the unbelievable ability and magic it took to release Castillo & Phillips. No other GM can possibly have fathomed being able to do something as intricate & complicated as that.
And do you remember this classic?
Fonzie13 January 6, 2013 at 8:17 pm
“I have to say both Dr Dooby and Metro12 are two of the most objective and agenda free posters to hit this site in a long time”
Absolutely! They both speak objectively about the FO. They both talk about good moves and bad moves. Bash and praise. You only see when they post about the good things.I don’t get your freaky obsession with me lately.
You wanna talk about classic posts. How about when you said the Mets should non tender Pelfrey and then trade him. Now that’s classic! Especially since it’s an impossibility.
I’ll reserve the optimism for 2013 just a tad longer, but the gist of the comment holds truth. I do like the direction of the team. If the prospects turn out to be something of worth and they can fill in 2 of the 3 OF spots (be it Cowgill taking the Cow by the Horns, be it from acquiring a piece via FA or trade), they just may surprise us this year.
You really must be 12 years old… A GM greatest achievement is jettison contracts?? You failed to mentioned how he failed to acquired anything for them. all he did was released them, forcing the mets to eat the contracts..
He’s avoided long-term free agent signings which could have become additional albatross contracts”
Didn’t he just sign wright to an insane $138 million dollar contract?
“He did stumble with the bullpen, but seems to have learned his lesson and is approaching 2013 in a much smarter way.”
Ummmm… How? By not acquiring anybody????
I like the direction the team has been going in. I don’t feel they are too far off, and 2013 can be a very competitive season, if not a playoff-caliber one”
Sure you do…. keep drinking the kool aid
Alex, I didn’t know whether to laugh or throw up when I read that comment. But whenever I see comments like that I’m thinking they either never saw a Mets World Series, they are like 12, or they are in rehab.
he failed to acquired anything for them.
Anyone who thinks Bay, Castillo and Ollie had any real trade value was born yesterday and hasn’t a clue about baseball.
Didn’t he just sign wright to an insane $138 million dollar contract?
No, it is not insane. And I said “free agent.” Wright wasn’t a free agent signing. The contract was reasonable considering Wright’s worth.
Ummmm… How? By not acquiring anybody????
The assumption is Lyon is going to be signed. And he’s attempting to build it from within. With pitchers like Familia and Gorski added in to the mix that already includes Parnell, Francisco, Edgin, Heffner and Byrdak
Sure you do…. keep drinking the kool aid
What brand do you drink Alex? It seems to be much stronger than mine.
Is the chat loading for you???
no, it links me to a giant pic of the lord…oh the horrors
Don’t talk about the bat lair like that.
Like I said Joe D.
“Don’t listen to anything Sandy says. Just look at what he’s done:”
I am fine with that as well. Of course some will see the moves he’s made as all positive, some will see them as all negative and some will be “fence sitters” like me that just as I did with Omar see each move independently and realize that there are good and bad moves and sometimes we don’t even have a clue about what factors even went into the decision to start with.
Hey Alex…David Wright is better than Keith Hernandez.
Gotta say man…do you even enjoy watching the Mets? Seems like you enjoy watching them lose so you can spread the negativity each day.
The Mets are REBUILDING!!!! Enjoy the kids coming up this year….add pieces next offseason and contend in 2014.
^^^^^ HA! Very true.
um no
Davie Wright is not better than Keith Hernandez and will NEVER be better than a player who made teams around him better like Keith Hernandez.
NEVER. And no amount of empty numbers compiling will change that.
Bayonne –
You’re fighting an uphill battle with these guys.
Have you no idea how many fantasy baseball championships were won because of David Wright?
Bayonne, you have to stop looking at the two World Series Hernandez won and consider the thousands of Fantasy Leagues that Wright has won. Oh and ignore the MVP too.
I see now that some other so-called fans have also jumped on the Keith Hernandez Hate-Wagon along with JesseP.
Point taken,
Also didn’t you know it’s National Rationalization Day? Now today they are rationalizing down Frank Cashen’s and Keith Hernandez’ time here.
Doesn’t get any more transparent and phoney than that.
Maniac, remember what we talked about? Now that we mention how we like keith as a player jessep jumps right in and go against him. never mind he hardly if he did see him playing, now he goes against keith why you ask? Because we like him and we saying he’s better than the ambassador. SMH…
You say black, they say white. If we like someone, they hate them. It’s not an agenda , it’s just… umm… welll… uhh… hmm… an agenda.
I should’ve waited and go against you guys on this one JUST to see what his reaction would’ve been… My goodness. You have to be either insane or at some point just plain stupid to even bring up such an argument like that. It’s downside disrespectful and pathetic to even say that.
“I like Wright but I like the Mets more and comparing Wright to Keith at this point is a little far fetched no matter what the numbers say. ”
So does my comment make me now one of the cool kids too or just not a sheep?
LOL.
See I am capable of independent thought.
TRS, please make sure your buddy jessep understand what you just said… i am sure he’ll pay attention to you.. Cannot compare the 2, but to say at any point that wright is better or like keith is downright disrespectful.
Alex – Can I ask why you are acting like I wrote a blog titled “Keith is Terrible, David Rocks”
I said, wait let me quote it again
“I don’t know that comparing Wright and Hernandez is really smart – different players in different era with a much different team…but if I wanted to”
And then just listed their individual achievements.
So me saying that somehow translates to you that I hate Keith? You really need to take your anti jessep glasses off next time you read what I say please
thanks for reading!
Alex, I don’t have “buddies” on here and in fact I have most likely due to volume over the past decade agreed with you more than anyone else on here…. man that’s scary. Keep in mind that is more because we have been commenting for the last 5+ years so even we have to occasionally agree.
I have no sides here, no matter what you guys say. I take each comment individually. You and I are going to disagree on Wright to some extents and not others. To me he’s the best if not the 2nd best (if you want to go Straw because of 86 I am ok with that) position player the Mets have ever developed. As far as impact, I put Keith ahead of him in terms of position players as do I Piazza.
TRS, i will answer to you since you saw it coming, from june 1983 when the mets traded for keith up to 1989 his last year as a met the mets record when like this:
1989: 87-75
1988: 100-60
1987: 92-70
1986: 108-54
1985: 98-64
1984: 90-72
Now, different era meant the mets were in the playoffs twice, but in this era they would’ve been in the playoffs every year…. The mets became winners because they got good players as well no doubt about it, but the culture changed when this man came abord, and f anyone is questioning that should have his baseball knowledge card revoke.
Alex, as I said I rank Keith and Piazza ahead of Wright in terms of impact.
Hey Alex…David Wright is better than Keith Hernandez.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh good lord, can we let David’s career play out before we make statements like this.
Keith has like 10 gold gloves, a MVP and could have gotten it a couple other years. I like David Wright very much but am happy he will finish his career with the team, but let’s take it easy on these kind of claims.
Unless your whole intent was to inflame the Wright haters, the comment is pretty silly.
AND when the guy found out he was being divorced he went on a hole night coke/alcohol binder and showed up the next day to his a grand-slam. David cannot handle his coke.
Sorry, Sandy, you are just not believable. You have some nerve making such a statement when you have done absolutely nothing even remotely positive to justify such optimism.
This franchise will neither sport a sustainable longterm winner by solely relying on young talent nor by constantly shooting for veteran help.
What is needed is a) a good young foundation and b) a quality supporting cast and c) continued depth on the farm for in-house help and trade bait.
a) and c) should be in good shape within another year. How far b) is seems debatable.
However, if…
- at least one of Wheeler or Harvey becomes a legit front-of-rotation SP
- the other becomes at least a solid mid-rotation type
- the bullpen problem takes care of itself
- the Mets create an at least average major league outfield (the difference between atrocious and average is probably 5+ wins per season – right now, the Mets are about 3 at least average outfielders away from having an at least average OF. One may develop from within, the other two probably need to be added from the outside)
- D´Arnaud becomes an at least average major league fulltime C
…I´m pretty confident that the Mets will contend for a playoff spot in 2014 – and won´t reach their peak until at least 2016 or 2017. Of course, coming up with that outfield remains a significant hurdle. However, I´m quite optimistic, it will be feasible.
Say, the Mets add Michael Bourn and an OF with some pop such as Cory Hart or Hunter Pence to go with a platoon of either Nieuwenhuis or Duda vs. RH and Cowgill vs. LH at one spot, that already makes for an at least average OF overall – that should easily be 5 to 8 wins better than the 2012 outfield. Add 5+ extra wins from the bullpen and maybe 3 extra wins from the rest of the team (due to improvements at C and Ike Davis playing closer to his ability for e.g.) and you approach the 90-win range. Yes, there are risks, question marks and no guarantees. However, it doesn´t take a lot to see something like that happening.
oh please enough already with your self-serving pscho-babble. I think you overanalzye yourself into a corner because you like the way you’re writing looks. A lot of words saying NOTHING.
The time is now to start adding pieces..and you’re STILL on that 2016/1017 kick?
It’s funny how on one hand everyone one of Sandy’s Acolytes preaches PATIENCE he just needs more time but there is never any patience when it comes time to heaping PRAISE onto him…..
“He needs time before you can see the progress…But he is making GREAT moves! Lets Applaud him!”
Until such time as he wins more games than the team he took over the best you can say about his tenure here is he has failed because they have gotten worse and STILL are until they prove otherwise!
We were too far away to KEEP a Cy Young Pitcher yet after doing that we are now close enough to start making moves….
I guess d’Arnaud is the next Albert Pujols then right?
Exactly. If you’re one or two moves away why trade away a Cy Young award winner? the whole rationale for that trade was that 2013 was a lost cause so we may as well maximize Dickey’s value.
I get the concept of ignoring what a GM says and focus on what he does, but Alderson just can’t say the Mets are rebuilding and preach patience. He has to have his cake too by saying he’s not punting 2013. That is a ridiculous statement. The Mets have no closer and not a single outfielder that would start on another team. Santana and Gee are coming off serious injury and I’d like to see a full season out of Harvey and anything from Wheeler and D’Arnaud before we put them in Cooperstown. And when did Jon Niese become anything other than a nice middle of the rotation starter? So even the rotation is not necessarily a lock. One or two moves away?C’mon.
There is so much BULL being thrown around here OSMF that it’s hard to distinguish between the smell of horse and dog at this point.
Sandy saying he is not punting on 2013 is aimed at people who might be fooled into buying tickets…And I still say the Bourn back and forth is aimed at them as well….
The FO doesn’t need to wait until BREF posts it’s attendance figures to know how Ticket sales are going. By the end of this month anyone who re-upped thier tickets from last year will have sent in payment. They have a pretty good idea how many did that and I would bet anything it’s LESS than re-upped last year.
And they probably have a good idea how NEW sales are going as well…Bet you they are down as well!
Not hard to take those numbers and project what attendance might be and seeing that all of a sudden (a Month after trading that Cy Young guy because we were not close enough to warrant keeping him) we are PLAYERS in the Mil Bornes game and Close to competing….
It’s all bull!
It could only be possible if d’Arnaud is a hall of famer right out of the gate!
Because thats what’s different from then to now…A Cy Young Pitcher gone and replaced by d;Arnaud who won’t even start the season for us….
This sudden change in the propaganda isn’t due to the team being ready to compete…Sandy doesn’t think this team is closer to a WS than it was when it had Dickey, certainly not until maybe Snydergaard is ready….
It is merely an admission that what I said two years ago is true…
Cutting payroll didn’t(couldn’t) solve the problems of this team because it’s problems were not salary or players it was spent on it was a lack of revenue that only spending on a player that people thinks makes you BETTER can solve….
If they think you have improved the team they might renew tickets they had or be insipred to buy tickets where before they did not.
So this is all about trying to trick fans into buying tickets.
What they got for Beltran and Dickey might have been fine under different circumstances…
That is they were the worst team in the league and had two years of top picks already in development to augment with those trades. Then maybe they get two more years of high picks to develop and have 4-6 years worth of kids ready to come up and make the team a winner….
We didn’t do that…We traded our best players hoping what we got would immediatly make up for those losses….
Wheeler will be here as will d’Arnaud….After that we are right back where we started in 2011….a threadbare farm, no one within two years of promotion and no money to spend to get what we need.
We WILL need patience before we see a World Series here….NOW….
We were closer to one when Sandy got here than we are now though….
It will take at MINIMUM another 5-6 years of picking at the top to create this winner through PATIENCE….
And by the time they get here Davis, Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, D’Arnaud will all be too expensive to keep and getting close to FA….
And then we trade them (like we did Dickey) for the same reasons as we did Dickey and Beltran and this vicious cycle lasts another 20 years!
For someone that screams Race every chance you get, I find it ironic that you reply with “dimples”, don’t have facts to counter with so you resort not a sexist remark.
Wright’s nanny another good one. Dude get a grip, I didn’t compare Wright nor defended him, if you don’t know how to read ask a grownup to help, I was only talking about the trade. That’s ok I know a woman on a sports site with actual facts emasculates you, poor thing.
Never once did I say a negative about Hernandez but make that argument anyhow.
For a bunch of boys to know everything about baseball you seem to former a lot or selective memories.
Remember when Omar compared Perez to Verlander. HAHAHA
Good sh-t, keep arguing I like it. Yes the team is better because they traded Dickey and Beltran, not this year but the next 7 or 8. And obviously they did not underachieve, they performed very well at the time of their trades. But they where up there in age and the Mets had many holes.They filled the catcher position long term and short term, better than any free agent out there this off season. Syndergaurd could be a huge trade chip or an extremely good starter. Alderson has done a great job with the farm system and that will pay off on the major league roster starting this year, by the kids coming up and playing and trades next year.
I understand the anger some of you feel but the fact is Alderson is setting up a team to win over a long period of time and doing a good job of it. Sure you can make an argument maybe B.J Upton would have been a good move this year, but so would Gomez next year when they are more inclined to compete, know more about Wheeler and Darnaud, and some of the other good talented pitchers they have. I would rather Gomez, Ellsbury, or Young next year than Upton this year.It just makes more sense. If they get Bourn on a good deal without giving up the pick fine, but in the end it does not put them over the top. Next year is the time they will shine. Relax and enjoy this season, it will be much better than most of you think.
Go Mets
Cmon Alex…based on your extreme negativity I am sure you were bashing someone on the mets in 1986. Who was it? Was it Danny Heep? Did Cashen not aquire a 2nd loogy? Dude you are a clown and your posts are amateurish.