In 2011,

Dillon Gee: 13-6 4.43ERA
R.A. Dickey: 8-13 3.28ERA

W-L does not ALWAYS tell the whole story, and it is difficult to predict. Who said anyone was taking anything away from Tom Seaver? We aren’t saying racking up an incredible amounts of wins is easy or that it has nothing to do with the pitcher, we are saying it’s difficult to predict, and really you would just be throwing a number out there, as no one could predict a 6-9 record to go along with Cliff Lee’s stats, or that 8-13 to go with R.A.’s 2011.

There are pitchers who have a better ability to induce a batter to hit it where they throw the ball better than other pitchers and those are the more successful pitchers. I don’t think it’s fair to Tom Seaver to discredit what he’s done in his career for all the teams he’s played for.
And basically what your doing is holding the way the game is played against the pitcher! You’re denying the pitcher his percentage of the responsibility of the win just because he’s supposed to have fielders. That’s wrong. This is the central figure that is doing the most work on this team in getting it to try and win the game.

Of course circumstances change game to game, relievers blow games, errors happen but all in all that pitcher deserves every win he gets.

I have high hopes for Niese and the only thing I would like to see him improve on is economizing his innings and getting guys out on fewer pitches…He isn’t too bad in that department already but with a little improvement in pitch selection and setting up the batter properly he could reduce the workload on that arm and extend himself from getting injured.

6 of the first 13 starts for Cliff Lee last season, could have easily been won the Phillies, yet he didnt have a win until his 14th start(go figure, it was against us.)

I had a debate with someone who thinks W-L is important to look at how many time your pitcher gave you a good chance to win, because “ERA” is just an average, what if they are dominant in 40% of starts and less than average in the other 60% your ERA will come out pretty solid, but you won’t help the team win that much. I do believe W-L is a tough stat to read a players skill level off of.

In 2011,

Dillon Gee: 13-6 4.43ERA
R.A. Dickey: 8-13 3.28ERA

So, I have to agree with Alex that it does not tell the whole story.

However, no reason we can’t throw an optimistic W-L record in there.

easily overlooked since it seems like he has been around forever is that he is only 25 (I think he pitches 2013 as a 26 YO), so still not even in what is normally the prime years for a SP.

15-17 wins too

Can’t wait.

The thing about Niese which most impressed me were how few base on balls he gives up and how consistent he was as the season wore on. I think he went something like his last 20 starts in a row giving up just 3 earned runs or less. Though i could be wrong on the number of starts.

I guess good pitchers don’t put their teams in position to win games. He can have a 3.50 ERA and go 7-13 but i know….you guys don’t think pitcher wins are important.

RBIs not important and pitcher WINS not important. Nice. No credit to the hitters who actually cash in the chips and no credit to the one main force you put out there to keep opposing hitters at bay. Instead all the credit goes to the guys that get on base before the RBI and the the players AROUND that good pitcher who gives any team a better chance to win a game.

It’s funny how is so many different levels in the saber world that wins are not important – statistically and in real life.

I see no reason why we can’t have all 5 starters with an ERA under 3.75 although Gee might be a little higher.