31
2013
Who Will Be The Odd Man Out When Wheeler Arrives: Gee Or Marcum?
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Updated by Joe D. on 1/31
Here is a breakdown of Shaun Marcum’s deal including the $4 million in incentives which are all tied to him staying healthy. (Courtesy of Adam Rubin, ESPN New York)
Shaun Marcum is guaranteed $4 million as part of his major league deal with the Mets. He also can earn as much as $4 million in incentives.
Here’s how that potential bonus money breaks down, via the Associated Press:
• $250,000 apiece for reaching 120, 140, 160 and 170 innings.
• $375,000 apiece for reaching 180 and 190 innings.
• $500,0000 for reaching 200 innings.
• $375,000 apiece for 90 and 120 days on active roster, or on disabled list for injury unrelated to his right arm.
• $500,000 apiece for being on active roster or DL for injury unrelated to right arm for 150 and 170 days. (The major league season is 183 days.)
Here’s what I’m wondering…
Lets say Wheeler comes up in May for argument’s sake…
I’m thinking that the Mets won’t be able to just yank Marcum out of the rotation. It would seem that his job as a starter is pretty much guaranteed unless he gets hurt based on these incentives; otherwise these incentives mean nothing.
That tell’s me that no matter how good Dillon Gee is pitching, he’ll likely be the odd man out whenever Zack Wheeler is promoted.
Updated 1/30 4:00 PM
Shaun Marcum spoke to beat writers at Citi Field on Friday and revealed that Mets special assistant J.P. Ricciardi was a driving force behind his decision to sign with the Mets.
“I know he pushed a little bit. I can’t say how much. But I know he had some say in getting me there,” Marcum said. “And the other thing, for me, was an opportunity to go out and pitch — make 30-plus starts — and an opportunity to go out and throw over 200 innings. I think that’s every starter’s goal. They’re giving me the opportunity to do that.”
It was Ricciardi who drafted Marcum when he was the general manager of the Jays in 2003,
Marcum also said that replacing R.A. is not just his responsibility but that it has to be a team effort.
“As far as filling R.A. Dickey’s shoes, I think that will be tough to fill, having one person do it. I think if all five starters go out there and do their jobs, stay healthy, get to the goal of 200-plus innings, then I think that will fill R.A.’s shoes in itself — having those five guys make 30-plus starts.”
Of course it’s not just the starts and the innings, but essentially the quality of the pitching that will be most paramount in duplicating what Dickey meant to the team last season. It’s easier said than done.
Original Post 1/30 2:00 PM
The New York Mets today announced that they have signed righthanded pitcher Shaun Marcum to a one-year contract.
The deal is worth a guaranteed $4 million dollars with an additional $4 million dollars in incentives according to Ken Rosenthal.
Marcum, 31, ranks 16th in winning percentage (.613) among active pitchers with at least 100 career starts. The 6-0, 195-pounder also has 52 quality starts over the last three seasons and the majors’ best road ERA (2.67) over the last two years.
He made 21 starts last year with the Milwaukee Brewers, going 7-4 with a 3.70 ERA (51 earned runs/124.0 innings).
Marcum was placed on the 15-Day Disabled List on June 23 last season with right elbow tightness and returned to the Brewers rotation on August 24.
In 2011, Marcum was 13-7 with a 3.54 ERA (79 earned runs/200.2 innings) and 158 strikeouts in 33 starts with the Brewers. He led the majors with a 2.21 road ERA (24 earned runs/92.2 innings) that season.
Marcum missed the 2009 campaign after undergoing “Tommy John” surgery, but rebounded to win 13 games and notch a career-high 165 strikeouts in 31 starts for the Toronto Blue Jays the following year.
Marcum is 57-36 with a 3.76 ERA (383 earned runs/916.2 innings) with 746 strikeouts and 282 walks in 174 major league games, 149 starts with the Blue Jays and Brewers. Over the last two years, the Kansas City native is 20-11 with a 3.60 ERA (130 earned runs/324.2 innings) with 267 strikeouts and 98 walks.
Marcum was selected in the third round in 2003 by the Blue Jays out of Southwest Missouri State University. He made his major league debut with Toronto in 2005.
The rotation appears to be set now and will likely look like this:
- Johan Santana
- Shaun Marcum
- Jon Niese
- Dillon Gee
- Matt Harvey
That should be the norm at least until prospect Zack Wheeler arrives.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
215 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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Perfect. For one year. I was actually hoping for someone like him instead of Pavano or Lowe. I am just surprised Marcum didn’t get a better offer from someone else.
No details on the money yet?
I guess the money Hairston was asking for was slated for a 5th starter.
Good signing. If he pitches decent and we’re out of contention at the trade deadline, he can be a trade chip. Especially with Wheeler waiting in the wings.
Oh this is so great. A pitcher with elbow trouble who averages less than 6 innings per start.
Good move! I wanted NO PART of Pavano. Webb and The Beard still intrigue me.
Yeap, Game Changer move right there
POSSIBLY, OUR HORRENDOUSLY HORRIBLE LUCK HAS CHANGED WITH MARCUM CHOSEN IN LIEU OF PAVANO(NO SIDELINED W/RUPTURED SPLEEN) I CERTAINLY HOPE HOJO’S SPECULATED ROTATION SLOTTING IS INCORRECT AS I SEE TERRIBLE MISMATCHES I THE TOP 2 SLOTS AS I DON’T ENVISION EITHER SANTANA OR MARCUM MATCHING OTHER 1s & 2s BASED ON EACH HAVING ONLY MADE 21 GS APIECE IN ’12 WITH A COMBINED 13-13 RECORD (6-9 FOR JOHAN + 7-4 FROM SHAWN) THOUGH THE BACK 3 APPEAR STRONGER THAN THE USUAL BACKEND PLETHORA. NOTWITHSTANDING INDIVIDUAL PITCHING STATS I’D PREFER: SANTANA,HARVEY,NIESE,GEE,MARCUM AS MY LINE OF BATTLE AS SANTANA+MARCUM IN SUCCESSION WILL EXHAUST WHATEVER BULLPEN SETUP WE COBBLE TOGATHER & FAMILIA HAD BETTER BE MUCH GREATER THAN ANTICIPATED AS THE LONGMAN, HEIR APPARENT. CASE ANYONE FORGOT THE REMAINING ROTATIONERS FROM LAST SEASON SPORTED THESE STATS FOR THE SEASON:
SANTANA 6-9 4.85 IN 21 GS
NIESE 13-9 3.40 IN 30 GS
GEE 6-7 4.06 IN 17 GS
ADDING MARCUM’S 7-4 3.70 IN 21 GS CEWRTAINLY BEGGARS THE QUESTION OF WHICH REQUIRES WHEELER REPLACEMENT SOONER… JOHAN, DILLON OR SHAWN
ANYBODY FOR 3-CARD MONTY?
My prediction 6 is Santana….
If he can pitcvh well enough to be a 5th starter they will trade him at the deadline for some kid…
How good that kids is will depend how much better than a 5th Starter he is….
The Deadline is right around the time Wheeler should be ready for promotion….
And if they can find a taker for Buck (that is if he hits better than a buck 20), Wheeler and d’Arnaud will take the same bus (or in this case flight) to the park.
Probably for the Colorado or Arizona Series (to Save plane fare, afterall, you know we are BROKE! LOL)
If you’re making the case that you wouldn’t want Santana followed by Marcum why switch Marcum to # 5 followed by Santana?
For the scrap heap mavens we have become, this is a good signing. It’s a one year deal for a pitcher who could excel pitching half his games at Citi. The biggest question is health for Marcum. If he’s healthy, he will b a solid rotation piece. This gives us a great placeholder until Wheeler is ready, should send Familia and Mejia back to the farm for more development as starting pitchers, and wait for it…improves the MLB team, finally.
Typical, another injury rehab. Seems like we are attracted to them like white on rice. Great move, Sandy. A real difference maker. This should please the masses.
considering all the wailing about not having signed a ML FA deal, it should. Unless that was all noise about nothing?
Is it a MLB deal? I haven’t seen the details on that, you have a link?
But yes, you are right. This is what I’ve dreamed about all winter, acquiring Shaun Marcum as evidence that we still had the wherewithal to sign a major leaguer.
It was a major league deal since it is pending a physical. ST invites do not need to pass a physical.
This is an excellent move! Every analyst I have read shows Marcum winning around 12 games and posting an ERA around 3.65. For 3 million I would take that in a heartbeat. His only drawback may be his health. This is a signing that most definitely supports the risk involved. We now have a full rotation. And a very good one at that!
Yup. Except the rotation order: Santana, Harvey, Niese, Marcum, Gee
Whoever goes down first will likely be replaced by Wheeler, provided it happens after June. If it happens sooner, look for Hefner to join rotation. I don’t think they’ll rush Wheeler, just as they did not rush Harvey. Turned out to be for the best.
TOMMY, PLEASE DON’T GET FOOLED INTO BELIEVING WHEELER’S NOT BREAKING CAMP TO TRAVEL IN STYLE HAS ANYTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH “BEING REASDY” OR “NEEDING MORE AAA INNINGS” THE TRUE BARRIER TO WHEELER’S PROMOTION HAS MUCH MORE TO DO WITH THE SUN THAN THE EXPERIENCE AS THE SUN MARKLS TIME, THE INNINGS PITCHED MARKS EXPERIENCE AND THE THE MARK BEING COUNTED BY ALDERSON IS THE ELIGIBILITY FOR ARBITRATION/FREE AGENCY DATE ON THE CALENDAR(SUN TRAVEL).
TOMMY, OF THE 5 EXPECTED TO BE ROTATIONAL IN APRIL THERE IS CAUSE FOR CONCERN ATTECHED TO THREE OF THEM AS SANTANA & MARCUM ONLY COMPLETED 21GS EACH IN 2012 WHILE GEE WENT DOWN AFTER ONLY 17GS.
APARENTLY ALDERSON’S VISION HAS THE TRADITIONAL REVALUTIONARY WAR TRIO MARCHING AHEAD DESPITE BANDAFGES & LIMPS HOLDING THE COLORS, PLAYING THE FIFE. GET THE PICTURE? UNLIKELY ANY BUT HARVEY & NIESE STILL STANDING COME SEPTEMBER IF THAT LONG.
Good signing. I’d like to see them bring in two or three more of these guys for depth.
This is a great move and has the seal of approval from Captain Shill.
Matthew Cerrone : This is a good signing. I like it. Marcum isn’t an ace, but that wasn’t the goal. The goal was to get a formidable, experienced pitcher with upside, who could help work to replace R.A. Dickey’s innings. I think Marcum can do this.
Woohoo! Happy dance!
From the stand point of taking the pressure off of Wheeler to rush up, this is a good signing. Starters will get injured as well, so this is a good move overall. Only question mark is if he is healthy.
I agree with you as far as that goes. You can never have enough pitching depth and you do want to protect against rushing Wheeler before he is ready because someone gets injured. But like you, I’m concerned as always about these injury rehab players. We got burned the first time we signed Chris Young and he missed the season after 4 starts. But I’ve grown used to the idea that thse are the only types of players Alderson is attracted to because they are always cheap and below market.
If the roster was in better condition we wouldn’t bat an eye at this signing. You role the dice and Marcum has the potential to either do well or a be a bust, but these are good risks to take. Why it’s depressing is, it’s the only signing the MEts have done so far and the roster is in bad shape.
At this point, i rather see him than hefner any day of the week!!!!!!
Not the worst. This is for the 5th spot anyway. Hopefully stays healthy enough to let Mejia and Wheeler develop.
Relatively speaking, and evrything is relative my dear Watson, this is a very good F/A signing, armed with the ‘health caveat. When healthy, the guy goes into the 7th inning. He’s a good pitcher. A 1-year incentive-ladened deal is perfect. And yeah, if we’re out of it in July, he could net us a decent player. Good move.
Absolutely love this signing. Marcum has been one of the most underrated pitchers in MLB. Not sure he’s a #2, I think he’ll turn out to be a solid 4/5 option.
I was pro Marcum months ago, and I think assuming he can stay healthy – he’s a great fit. 195 innings in 2010, 200 in 2011.
Over those 2 years he had a 1.15 whip, 3.59 ERA. That’s solid.
All about health for him
Totally agree, i said “hell yeah” when i saw this signing lol.
Hes not great, and he is injury prone, but he has thd ability to pitch like a number three, and even a two at times.
Veey respectable numbers, very underrated
I wish you hadn’t said you liked this signing because now I’m worried about this guy….
LOL
The world was waiting for the number 1 puppet to announce love for her puppet master’s move. Go away and let real people tell their opinions. The site doesn;t need puppets spewing out Alderson’s crap every five minutes.
Why should he go away, have you ever posted an actual baseball opinion or are you just here to stalk certain people and criticize for the sake of it, never once posting an intelligent opposing opinion.
Yea an injury prone pitcher, just what we needed! The good news is when Wheeler is ready
in may or june Marcum will most likely be hurt and Wheeler can just slip right into his
starting spot! God forbid they saved the money they gave him to put towards signing Bourne!!
Johan might beat him to it.
Which is it Metsblog, what should I believe?
“The goal was to get a formidable, experienced pitcher with upside, who could help work to replace R.A. Dickey’s innings. I think Marcum can do this.”
Matt Cerrone – Executive Editor, Metsblog
“Marcum was the most ideal candidate. He won’t replace all of Dickey’s innings…”
Michael Baron – Pitching Analyst, Metsblog
Good signing. Period. No other comment.
Lmao, this is funny as hell:
jessep January 24, 2013 at 8:44 am
“I refuse to sit here and pretend Scott Hairston is anything but a platoon bat at best”
“Signing Hairston could have done what? Maybe made the Mets better by 2, 3 games? ”
“Hairston doesn’t solve the problem of the OF – he just adds another element to it.”
“He’s not an everyday player, he just isn’t.”
Now, here comes the fun part:
jessep January 24, 2013 at 9:31 am
“Absolutely love this signing.
“he’s a great fit. 195 innings in 2010, 200 in 2011″
“Over those 2 years he had a 1.15 whip, 3.59 ERA. That’s solid.”
Lol, this guy is something else…. While i like the signing too, you cannot help to wonder what goes trough his head while flip flopping like that, remember, playing in NY is a different monter than in toronto or milwaukee, hairston proved he can help the team, let’s just hope this guy does the same..
Look I know you hate the guy but that comparison does not represent a flip-flop in any manner.
Hairston is a 4th outfielder on a team that already has 5 of them. Would I rather have him as a 4th then the others absolutely and 2y6m is peanuts. But he does not solve the outfield problem, the team needs goes you can start and play defense.
Salty, what i mean is, when sandy doesn’t sign a guy they look for excuses as to why it happen to the extend that they bash the players, but when sandy brings in a guy he’s all of the sudden a HOF player and sandy is in line for Executive of the year, now, while i like marcum, you can’t help to wonder why 31 other teams didn’t sign him quicker, his numbers speak for themselves right? maybe he wasn’t worth the risk for every other club like he is to us, who more likely than not will suck bad this year, so if he comes in and pitches 4 games like young did in 2011 he somehow will be a good pick up either way according to the apologist including this guy… again, i hope it works out because he’s a good pitcher, but with him not being sign sooner makes you wonder if he’s healthy or will be during the season..
You have nailed it Alex but it is forbidden to make fun of thepuppet brigade. Afterall they mimic their master so perfectly they cannot be criticised. Afterall the goal is to dupe few others to buy tix so Fred breaks even or better. Winning is irrelevant.
High Risk, high reward. Heck, at this point all take it over another Sandy one-liner about our horrid OF.
Good signing. No Pavano, No Young.
Thats the best part of the entire thing. Seeing Chris Young again would have been difficult to stomach.
Should also include Pelfrey with this duo
This signing instantly lets every NL east rival know, the Mets are not letting the Marlins take fourth this year.
Seriously though, good move by Aldy. The rotation should easily be a strength of this team. We can only hope that they don’t go nuts and sign Bourne. I’m really not liking those rumors, although I’d understand fans who just want then to do something. I don’t think with Marcum signed, adding Bourne really turns the team into a winner yet. Still think they’d need bolder moves and more money for that.
I too was not enamored with signing Bourne and giving up our 11th pick. Looking at the last 20 years of draft, only Andrew McCutchen being the player with any significant time and production in majors, if contract is not overboard crazy, why not. 3 years at around 12Million ?
I would have preferred resigning Pelfrey. Strange, we let a healthy Mike Pelfrey walk and sign a more expensive rehab. project. I am going to guessing we signed Marcum to a 1-yr 3.5million deal.
hey lifelong – Pelfrey is coming off TJ Surgery. Marcum is not. Getting 1 year out of Marcum isn’t as big of a rehab quest as it would be for Pelfrey
Sorry puppet girl but coming off TJ hasn’t been a shocking development since your lord was a leader in roids players and winnings. Just like him and his outdated knowledge base, so is your faxes from him. Cut your strings and try to restore your mind. Being brain dead can’t be any fun. Maybe for you. Free tix for being a puppet good deal.
opps I meant I am guessing we signed Marcum to a1-yr 5.5 million dollar deal
I haven’t seen the cost yet. Where are you seeing 5.5 MIL?
Pelf signed for 4.5 MIL, if I remember correctly.
Also, this is pending a physical so the Mets have to be satisfied he and that arm passes that before they sign him.
Marcum’s month by month breakdown in 2012 by WHIP.
April – 1.34
May – 1.15
June – 0.98 in 3 appearances then went on DL with elbow injury!
July – On the DL with elbow injury!
August – 1.667 in 2 appearances after he came back from the DL!
September – 1.448
Pre Injury – 3.09 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, .652 OPS
Post Injury – 4.39 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, .808 OPS
Never had the surgery and opted to rest instead. Was never the same when he returned. Sound familiar? (Young, Francisco, Maine, Putz, Santana)
Why do you think the Brewers said no way on him?
Brendan, exactly my thinking, this guy is a good pitcher, but he comes in with a red flag, more than anything, why other 31 teams didn’t want him either? it seems odd to me that we hadn’t signed anyone with a major league pedigree, and the day after we lose hairston we come out and signed this guy. let’s hope he does work out, but i wouldn’t be surprise if he becomes a bum.. to me this is more to apeace the fan base over losing hairston at a very reasonable price to the cubs.
Seems you could say that “…31 teams didn’t want him…” smackdown with ANY F/A signing. No? Yeah, ‘health’ is an issue, but that’s likely factored in prcie / years of the deal. I think this is a good move IF he’s healthy. And if not, well we made a move and he stacks up okay versus the health risks / stamina of a Young, et al.
Of course 31 other teams didn’t want him. Why would NFL teams want a baseball pitcher?
Nice addition. Now get bourne(3yrs 39m??)and trade for upton
Upton to the Braves.
Braves deal – trading for J. Upton – sounds like a done deal this morning.
Sign Bourn and trade for Stanton…
That would be a home run of an offseason now wouldn’t it?
I like Marcum. Iknew he wasnt going to get a lot. That’s why I thought he would be a good signing for us. We should have also signed Lindstrom. He was cheap and can be used at the back end of the pen. Delmon Young also would have been good for us in terms of money and being right handed. Most people have trouble getting past what he said which is understandable. However, to me he was loaded and did something stupid it happens all the time & plenty of people have done worse. We seem to be bargin bin shoppers & when your shopping in the bargin bin sometimes you have to take an apple with a blemish so you don’t starve. This year our outfield production will be starving.
Maybe this move was made to give us some depth in the rotation so Sandy can trade for an outfielder. Maybe Sandy was serious when he was talking about bringing in a good outfielder. Ha ha ha we can dream.
Per MLBTR:
The Braves get Upton and Chris Johnson for Martin Prado, Randall Delgado, Nick Ahmed and Zeke Spruill, Mark Bowman of MLB.com reports
How would that have been comparable to what the Mets would have had to give up?
I am kinda surprised it included Prado, I guess the Braves are going with the rookie at 3B sooner rather than later.
Well, Now that I’ve read a little, Prado is on the last year of his deal. Even still, I would expect AZ to extend him and it solves their 3B situation and they have a full OF. I think this may be a nice move by AZ. I think Prado was a 6 WAR type player last year.
Yeah it’s the best of both worlds for AZ. They get a great clubhouse guy, full-time 3B who had a better season than Upton last year AND prospects while saving money as well. For the Braves it makes sense because if Upton lives up to his potential they may have the best OF in the Majors. Certainly the best defensive one.
I always liked Marcum. Underrated craftsman who has pitched his entire career in hitter friendly parks. Of course Sandy and Depo weren’t going to mess with Wheeler’s development.
BREAKING NEWS: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/21609866/justin-upton-traded-to-braves-pending-physical
To counter attack the mets getting marcum, the braves trade for upton…
I have to believe the Mets didn’t trade for Upton b/c SA wasn’t giving up one of Harvey, Wheeler or D’Arnaud to get him. But we’ll never know for sure.
I,if, if, Marcum stays healthy–at least for half a season–he should be a good part of the rotation. I wanted a Capuano-type, and, though different pitchers, Marcum is a skilled competitor.
A Capuano type is a HR…but what if he is a Chris Young type. I guess only time will tell on that one.
On paper, the deal makes sense.
The problem with any signing of a player with health issues is that the medical records are being looked at by the Mets quack medical staff.
Man, it seems like only a week or so ago I was chastised for saying that the Mets weren’t done dealing and there was still time to sign players before the season started.
Oh wait, it was a week ago.
I think it’s the “me, now” mentality of young generation.
Mets package would have to have started with wheeler or harvey & that’s why it was a no go. It only takes one team. I did not think they were going to get what they were lookin for & to get it from the Braves is surprising. Some day’s Upton looks like a world beater & others he looks like a lazy spoiled brat. There is no denying his upsibe. He has the potential to finish in top 10 in MVP voting every year. He’s already making money to which is tough for us but the Braves got real serious real quick. I think a lot of Delgados shine has worn off and dont see him being a Superstar. It’s hard to figure out how Ari values players. They traded Bauer for a box of rocks and now this. Arizonas moves are suspect at best. Maybe I’m just soar cause I thought we had pitch & a stud 3b prospect we lined up well. Just didnt want to give up the pitchers they wanted.
I don’t know what’s the bigger surprise: The Mets signing Marcum to a ML deal after beating around the bush about him for over a month or Towers getting hosed….okay, the latter is not much of a surprise after the way he’s been back and forth throughout this Upton saga.
I really like this signing, had this guy on my fantasy team in 2011 and he was pretty damned good. I still wouldn’t be surprised if they signed another starter. I think it’s smart the way the Mets are building up what was already a strength (starting pitching), but good lord if you’re going to go that direction you’ve GOT to shore up the OF defense, especially playing half your games at Citi Field.
SA has been very good at these type of signings. Cappy was very good and Young was a good signing too IMO. with a little run support and a decent bullpen i think he could have easily been an over.500 pitcher last year. So now that the pitching is in place, I expect to see some action on the outfield front. Hairston is still out there and his price is dropping by the day.
Hairston was signed yesterday.
I guess the signing of Marcum eliminates the chances (barring injury) of Mejia or say Familia making the rotation out of camp. Though I think Familia might still have a chance to make it out of the pen. Marcum when healthy has pitched well so if he can continue to do that as a Met great.
Sign Javier Vazquez …
Kill em with pitching … I’d seriously consider that.
Wouldn’t be a bad thought to sign Vazquez to follow this up. Gee would most likely be the odd man out, becoming a swingman, which in turn pushes Hefner out of the equation.
“Wouldn’t be a bad thought to sign Vazquez to follow this up”
No way that happens….. Vazquez said specifically that he wants to play for a CONTENDER this coming year….So you can scratch the Mets off that list….only thing we’ll be contending for is last place with the Marlins and the 1st pick in next years draft(ie last place)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk is cheap. Ben Sheets said the same thing when he was making one of his comebacks and went to Oakland. He may say he wanna play for a contender, but he may end up signing with a team to show what he can still bring to the table if a contender doesn’t magically show up at his doorstep.
Sorry, but have you seen him pitch here in NY twice? He would be killing US with his pitching.
I would rather have Gee.
Have you seen him pitch in the National League? I could care less what he did with the Yankees. He’s always been a much better pitcher in the NL than in the AL.
The guy’s got like 14 different pitches he throws. Seems like every time I ever got to see the guy (outside of his time with the Yankees) I wondered how he didn’t win more.
Night & Day NL vs AL, when he says “contender”, he should add “NL contender”
Quite honestly, I like this signing. Carl Pavano would have been great for the right price, but I think the Mets are getting a quality starter who will alleviate some of the innings lost after trading RA.
Eh, just another Capuano, Young type deal. It’s the only type of staring pitchers this front office likes, Moneyball, buy-low players. That’s the new market inefficiency. Like Boras said Alderson is shopping in the frozen foods section again.
If the mets were able to sign Marcum and beat out all the other clubs there must be something wrong with him and considering he missed two months last year with elbow
tightness he’s scary! I just hope our crackerjack medical staff checked him out completey!
LOL
Wouldnt it be SMART to sign a guy like Marcum to more than 1year???
It wouldnt kill him to sign someone other than that bum Frank Frank for 2yrs. Or at the very least add an option year to the deal…
I can see it now Marcum has a good year his price goes up and Good bye a la Capuano and to a lesser extent Hairston
I am guessing that Marcum didn’t want a multiyear deal at the price the Mets got him for.
The excitement over a scrub. How the Met fan has replaced the Ryals. PATHETIC. The NYMETS. The only team outside of Miami and Houston nottrying to win anything.
If Marcum is a “scrub”, then you probably think Anibal Sanchez is garbage.
Wow, would you consider a guy that has 3.67 ERA and a 1.189 WHIP over the last 5 years combined while going 54-32 a scrub? High standards.
Obviously the Mets got him not because he is a scrub but because of injury concerns.
Well, it’s a gamble worth taking but I wish Sandy took more of them.
As for as Marcum and his injury, it is something to be concerned about. He was having another good season until that time and upon his return, he pitched 42 innings, gave up 46 hits, 15 walks, 21 earned runs and 24 runs overall. Thats a 4.50 ERA and 1.45 whip over eight starts with an average of just under 5.1 innings per start.
I am also just wondering – do teams actually sign players to one year contracts hoping they later turn into good mid-season trading chips as rentals rather than acquiring them to help the team win and then re-sign him if he plays well and a deal can be worked out?
If Marcum pitches well, he’s going to be a free agent and at 32 can still then demand a multi-year deal at a lot more than we are spending on him now. So the only way it’s not a lose-lose situation for us is that he pitches well enough up to the trade-deadline just for another prospect.
If you look at this from Marcums POV, you have to know that this far along into the offseason no one is going to make you a multi year offer. Obviously the arm issues have spooked anyone interested in investing money & time in a multi year. SO, you better take a 1 year incentive laden contract w/whomever offers it, including a cellar dweller like NYM.
If you pitch well, BOOM, big money next year….if you dont, tommy john, but obviously he had no options or he wouldnt have signed w/a team that is rebuilding for a 1 year deal.
From the Mets point its pretty much a win-win deal too. If he passes a physical and we give him 4M with incentives, and he pitches like the pre-elbow Marcum we’re in gr8 shape. Trade him at the deadline and get something we need or consider offering him a multi-year. If he’s still hurt, well, we’re out 4M….
Hi Joe,
I don’t want to see a player like Marcum pitching well when knowing he’s either going to be traded at mid season or allowed to walk. To me that is no fun at all. Don’t need another R.A. Dickey story.
I hear ya Joey, I have been one that wasnt rooting for ANY SP at all. I think we had bigger fish to fry in the OF or BP. I think we could have gone w/what we had: Santana, Harvey, Niese, Gee, Heffner.
But in reality, now, if Marcum does real well, & we sign him longer, where do we put him in 2014? Can we really go w/Wheeler, Harvey, Marcum, Niese & Gee?
Hmmm..maybe we can. But if we did sign him for 3-4 years now & he pulled a Pavano w/the Yankees, we’d only have a millionaire paperweight sitting at the end of the bench waiting to recover for a year or so. Like I said, I wouldnt have signed any SP, but I think 1 year w/incentives is the best option here.
Hi Joe,
Isn’t a shame when a player like this comes along, it feels so empty because of the reality of the situation.
Like getting Nick Swischer in Cleveland. Am sure that is going to make the fans feel better considering that was it.
Don’t forget as well the lure of a soft tosser pitching at Citi-field for half his games in his rebound year. There could have been a market but if I am trying to rebuild value you have to consider those things.
Marcum was the best of the rumored candidates. Basically a more durable & better fielding version of Chris Young.
Certainly better than Pavano or Lowe for that matter. Which isn’t to say much, of course.
Of course, he sure ain’t RA Dickey and he probably won’t be better than Dillon Gee but should be pretty similar IF HEALTHY ( which is a pretty significant ” if”).
Also, the price is a factor. Is it Mike Pelfrey / Scott Baker money (4 to 6 million) which’d be alright, more ( ugh) or less (nice).
I could be wrong but…
I will make the bold prediction that Shaun Marcum will pitch more in 2013 than Chris Young did for the Mets in 2011 (4 games – 24 innings).
LoL, Cmon now your just jinxing the poor guy.
NJ -
As a Mets fan you have to set your goals high!
Hahahaha.
Hopefully Marcum underwent some “blood spinning” injections in his elbow & he’ll be 100%.
If not, hopefully hes now an avid MMO reader, spots this post, and books a 1st class seat on a flight to Germany and gets it done b4 the Mets doctors try to heal him !
Wrong the rotation is
Santana
Harvey
Neise
Gee
Marcum
I agree, Marcum needs to be #5, except I prefer Niese at #3 instead of the guy you got in there…..”Neise”
welcome shaun marcum! you are entering an alternate universe where the gm is a smug sob who delights in mocking his own team.
past 2 years management gave up after the allstar game and so did the team.
now, captain clutch got his money and all the same mngt/coaches are in place. so what will be different?
considering Marcum made 7.7 million last year and is coming off a good year (despite 21 starts), and 4 consecutive good years. I would say this is a 1 year $8.5 million with having $3 million deferred to 2019.
My guess would be 1-year, 5.5 million guaranteed, plus incentives of up to another 2 million based on GS and IP that could bump this to 7.5 million.
Somewhat similar to the contract RH Scott Baker signed with the Cubs a couple of months ago.
By the way, if you care for some blasphemy, here are the 2010 and 2011 totals for two pitchers:
Pitcher A:
2010: 174.1 IP, 2.84 ERA, .660 OPS against
2011: 208.0 IP, 3.28 ERA, .690 OPS against
Pitcher B:
2010: 195.1 IP, 3.64 ERA, .691 OPS against
2011: 200.2 IP, 3.54 ERA, .656 OPS against
Pitcher A is RA Dickey.
Pitcher B is Shaun Marcum.
Entering 2012, the market value for both was quite similar – Milwaukee had traded an elite prospect in Brett Lawrie for Marcum the previous winter.
Of course, in 2012, Dickey developed the “high & hard” knuckler and became the NL Cy Young winner while Marcum missed time with a sore elbow…
Marcum is a risk, no doubt, but I agree that a worthwhile risk. His performance away from the offense-friendly Brewer’s park is very strong in 2011 and 2012…low 2s EERA and good peripheral stats. He should do quite well in Citifield. If his elbow is healed he is a legit 10-12 game winner. Solid move, but Alderson has a ways to go before we can pat him on the back.
Wait a second, 4 million for Marcum???
Great deal right?
Seems like a fine deal for both sides. Marcum only gets a very modest guaranteed contract but can add to that with a strong season and be in a good position to hit the market again next year . Prior to his injury riddled 2012 season, Marcum was a fine # 3 type starter. He´s now getting a contract similar to Scott Baker – with a lesser guaranteed sum – who received 5.5 million guaranteed with incentives to take him up to 7.5 million with the Cubs after missing the entire 2012 season with Tommy John surgery.
Certainly seems better than what lesser pitchers such as Jeremy Guthrie or Joe Blanton received this winter. And if healthy, his upside clearly is higher than that of C.Young and certainly Pavano or Lowe.
Marcum also could have pretty significant trade value by mid-summer, if healthy, depending on where the Mets are in the standings.
Of course, he may also go and visit Dr.Andrews in late May – that´s why he´s “only” getting 4 million $ guaranteed…
Stanton will hit the market next year, exactly why Mets can not give up the 11th pick, they need whoever they get to put in the trade for Stanton or keep in the system so the trade does not totally rip apart the system.
Should have tacken a chance with 26 year old Jair Jurgains instead ALOT more upside
It is a great deal for the Mets. It only guarantees him 4 mill and if he pitches well enough and stays healthy enough for the incentives to kick in, they could easily trade him once Wheeler is ready to acquire a prospect or two.
I have a feeling that attendance will be horrible this year which will make the Mets big time sellers come July. Expect Marcum, Santana, Gee, and possibly even Murphy on the block if things go as south as everyone predicts.
I agree we very probably are out of it by mid-July, but what if we’re not? What if we do sign Bourn (& keep the #1 pick), Marcum is a great addition & we have a 5 1/2-man rotation of Santana, Niese, Harvey, Marcum, Gee, Wheeler (sparing the kids & Santana) and good up-the-midde D with d’Anaud & Bourn in place and a decent RF / LF with Brown / Kirk, Cowgil / Baxter (Duda is traded in my dreams) and we’re in the Wild Card hunt all the way into the August heat? What then?
CHICAGO, WHILE I HATE TO BE YOUR SPOILER, IT’S TOUGH TO SEE HOW THE ADDITIONS OF MARCUM & POSSIBLY BOURNE CAN BE PASRLAYED INTO NEGATING THE ADDITION OF UPTONS TO ATLANTA’S OUTFIELD LIKELY SECURING THAT W/C #1 SLOT FOR THE BRAVOS MAKING 3 PLAYOFF TEAMS ESCAPING THE SAME DIVISION A NEAR IMPOSSIBLE UNDERTAKING.
WHILE I’VE FOND RECOLLECTIONS OF BOTH ’69 & ’73 I’M HARD PRESSED TO CONSIDER ANY BERTH BETTER THAN #4 IN ’13.AS IT’S UNLIKELY WHEELER & d’ARNOUD SEE ENOUGH MLB GAMES TO TIP ANY DOUBTS OUR DIRECTION.
So potentially $8Mil for a year…
Wouldve much rather spent that money on acquiring an Outfielder even if it cost a few more clams and let Mejia, Familia, McHugh and even Chris Young compete for the final spot on the roster…or even signed a cheaper option
While I agee on money better being spent in the OF….
He’s never going to hit those incentives which are probably based on Game Starts Complete games and other numbers he is unlikely to get….
Doesn’t matter how well he does Wheeler is coming up in August and the only way this guy lasts beyond then is if Santana gets traded (or Worse Niese, Harvey, Gee or Wheeler)
Leroy,
Depends on what is available in the OF. On thing for sure, when healthy this dude can pitch. How many RH pitchers with a sub 90 mph fastball casn pitch to a low 2s era on the roas for consecutive seasons? I’d much rather invest in good pitching than mediocre position players. For reference, see 2010 and 2012 Giants.
How sad is it that a guy of this guy’s circumstances had to be CONVINCED and SOLD on coming here….
From that quote above, it actually looked more like J.P. convinced the Mets to go after him, not convinced Marcum to sign.
That’s they way I read it too. It seemed what sold Marcum was the opportunity for 30+ starts and 200+ innings.
I’m not really sure why it’s surprising that a GM is selling his team to a FA anyway. That’s part of their job.
Agreed. That’s part of a GM’s job. Heck, Omar had to hard sell Beltran on the Mets even though he offered him a huge contract. Even then, Carlos tried to jump ship at the last moment to the Yankees!
I guess Omar’s “personal connection” wasnt deep enough with Beltran
Nah, I think his adulation of the Yankees and Williams just trumped all.
Usually injuries take care of these things (by mid summer 2012, 3 out of 5 opening SP were on the DL and out for the year).
If the Mets are extremely lucky and everyone remains healthy, then I assume either Marcum or Santana is traded by July – or maybe Gee for an outfielder.
I wouldn´t worry about issues like these, usually they take care of themselves.
Hope you’re dead wrong, dude. The thought that Matt Harvey has a 40% chance of getting injured and being out for the season now frightens me. Thanks for putting that thought in my head.
Who is the odd man out? Santana and/or Marcum. If the team isn’t doing well, look for those to be traded (if they aren’t hurt) and open up a spot for Wheeler.
I think if Johan is tradeable then he will be gone either way…. See Beltran.
Doesn’t he have 10-5 rights? He may not want to go…
I am sure he has a no-trade clause anyway but that hasn’t stopped him before.
Probably Harvey.
Good god that’s morbid.
Someone has to fill in for the void left since Alderson said he won’t be cracking any more jokes.
La-La-La, I can’t hear you.
Don’t take this personally SRT….But there seems to be a lot of that going on around here!
That’s what she’s been doing whenever Alderson is criticized. She may be the last person standing that has not criticized one thing he has done…….after almost 3 years. I believe that’s a new record for ANY General Mgr. in Mets history. It is the 1st time. Have a missed the excitement or something over the last 2 1/2 years?
No good can come from me conversing with you.
Moving on…..
So why even say it? Just say nothing
Again the RDM crew pushing back an interesting comment from the Recent Comments section to add useless personal responses to comments that if they feel that way about the comment then why even say anything?
ARGH Must fight the urge. Don’t do it Gary, Don’t do it…
http://imgur.com/1WR019U
LOL.
Well Bay while that may be true she has not tried to SELL us on the moves and insisted everything was going great….Merely placed the blame for what she admits isn’t very good on someone else….
One thing to admit the team is wrong and lay blame in the wrong place…
Another thing entirely to actually support and try and SELL this sham to the masses on a daily and every singular post made basis as if it is the work of a MASTER!
I’m not interested in fixing the blame just the problem….Most of the arguments are from those who think there is nothing and no one to blame at all…Everything is going GREAT….
That is where the real problem and arguments come from at least from my perspective….
And I have to give SRT the props that while she may be doing all she can to keep a positive outlook and will from time to time blame the wrong guy (as the article where Alderson saying “It’s ME!” proves) I have yet to see her trot out Stats and Other TEAM models and try to twist them as an example of what we are doing….
She knows things are not great around here….Thats at least halfway smart compared to the others who think there is a championship coming soon and spend all day selling us that fantasy…
Mother Effffn This^^^^^ Metsie
Salty people think I hate Alderson….Or anyone who does NOT hate him…
While I don’t hold his GM skills in high regard I could actually care less about him…He will probably ruin this team but I also agree with SRT (and others) that he came with the MLB loan.
What I DO have a low tolerance for is bull….
And there is a platterfull (maybe 10 Platters full) of it served everyday regarding just how GREAT things are going, Just how GOOD this team is…
How REBUILT the Minors are now that we are ranked 12th (which will soon be back to 24th the second Wheeler and D’Arnaud are promoted meaning right back where we started from)
and this notion that there is some LONG TERM COMPETITIVE WINNING on the horizon when the reality is there is nothing but LONG TERM CELLAR DWELLING in our future….
In the end if things go as I think they are Sandy WILL contribute to this team winning something and a rebuilt Minors….
But only because he will make us the WORST team in the MLB and we will get all those consecutive years of top 10 picks that whoever takes over once Sandy is fired wil use to fix this team….
It didnt have to be this way but thats where we are right about now….
And this Offseaosn COULD have stopped that destiny from happening if we had gone out a bought ONE decent OFer (I like Victorino but others would have done) to get SOME of the OF so if we could manage to swing a trade for another this year or next (stanton being the top there) then 2014 Might actually be worth watching.
And 2015 would be a year where you could take the risk to go for that one guy who COULD make us a Playoff team….
All Water under the bridge….
In the end I don’t care if someone ewants to look for the positive light in a dark lightless room…
Just as long as they are not busy trying to convince me the room has PLENTY of light!
‘She knows things are not great around here’
So true, Metsie. I’ve gone on record saying I’ll lead the mob with the pitch forks if they don’t open up the wallets and start investing in this team for 2014 – when supposedly big $$ coming off the books and we’re all being asked to be patient for.
Well Srt….
Maybe our difference in opinion (and with a few others around here) is that I KNOW that money coming off the books is not what is going to solve the spending problem…
They lost 23 Mil last year and if Attendance stays the same this year compared to last that number is likely to repeat or actualy get WORSE due to the loss of the Dickey Draw….Attendance after an Off Season like THIS one is going to go DOWN not UP.
And thats going to offset ALL or MOST of the savings they will get from expiring contracts.
To spend next year they will have to promise money they can’t know they will make….
And if your going to do that then this year was as good as any year to do that because it might at least stop the attendance from going down and that would at least be just swapping one commitment for another and going from there.
But that ship sailed a month ago!
Mostly all valid points.
And I don’t much believe they’re suddenly going to open their wallets next season either. I think they are stringing along fans, crossing their fingers they’ll actually field a team fans want to come out and see to get that revenue up.
I don’t have a problem with the ‘plan’. Strengthen the farm system, use prospects to fill holes at the ML level both on the field and in trades. And that takes time. But y’all know how I feel about the Wilpons. The number one goal was for them to hold onto the team at all costs. Right now, it looks like goal accomplished. I think SA was part of that plan, brought in to do basically what he’s done up until now.
At some point though, results have to be seen or realized. And I think that some point is going to come sooner rather than later for the Wilpons.
you would hope. Though other teams have proven over the years that you can go a long time with minimal wins, and lousy attendance, and still make good money at it! Though it certainly helps to have revenue sharing money coming in.
You have to figure that another attendance hit in 2013 is already baked into the model. 2014, that is when I guess you find out what the floor is for sustainable payroll without an attendance increase.
but, I still say Sandy is gone after 2013 because he will ahve had enough (or maybe Selig retires finally, though I imagine they have to take him out of office in a body bag). And then we will see what Jeffy and his faithful sidekick J.P. can do without the stern old man in the way.
I also believe SA is a ‘one and done’ type GM. He’ll be handing over the reigns as soon as his contract is over. My biggest fear though is Jeff inserts himself in as GM.
As to Selig….I really believe the reason he keeps delaying his announced retirement is b/c he’s got too many fingers in too many pies and either has to:
– cover it good
– get those pies all cooked
– make sure his successor isn’t going to blow any whistles
But that’s a discussion for another day….
Well my problem with what they did is they tried to CUT thier way into keeping the team instead of doing what needs to be done (and STILL needs to be done even after all the cuts) which was to find a way to increase attendance…
160K of attendance per year translates to roughly 20Mil in revenue.
In a city like NY it doesn’t take much to get that….
A .500 record, Keeping and re-signing your best performers coupled with the improvement of the kids you DID promote can get that easily….
the Cuts just made the problem worse not better and as a result after all the money people called bad money comes off the books they still won’t have enough to sign anyone that might get you that 160K that would wipe out the 20 of the 23 Mil in losses they had last year….
They may even LOSE 160K in attendance now that Dickey is gone and that translates to a potential 43Mil in losses for 2013, just 7 Mil shy of what they lost in 2010 when the GM got fired and Snady started “THE FIX” that didn’t fix a thing regarding profitability and finances and after 50 Mil in cuts saved the Wilpons 7 Mil in the loss column when all is said and done.
METSIE, MY FRIEND, WITH SOME FOLKS IF IT WEREN’T FOR HINDSIGHT, THEY’D BE BLIND. NOT U OF COURSE; BUT SO MANY OTHERS HERE…
PERSONALLY, I LOVE R.A. DICKEY FROM THE VERY OUTSET SIMPLY FOR HIS ABILITY WITH THAT KNUCKLEBALL OF DESTROYING MOST YOUNGSTERS USING THE NEW MONEYBALL PREPARATION COMPUTERS WITH SYNCHRONIZED VIDEO PITCHING GRAPHICS & THE LIKE AS THE SOLE LEAGUE”KNUCKSY” PRACTICIONER OVER THE PAST 20 YRS HIS “BUTTERSLIES” CERTAINLY STUNG THE MOST PROLIFIC YOUNGSTERS MORE TIMES THAN NOT.
HOWEVER, EVEN I MUST ADMIT THAT THE FUTURE’S BLEAKNESS WOULD BE MISSING THE PINPOINT OF LIGHT BEING SHED WITH HAVING 3 MEMBERS OF MLB’s TOP 100 KIDS INSTEAD OF JUST THE 1 “STOLEN” FROM SF IN MY ESTIMATION GETTING WHAT SOME EXPERTS ASSESS AS THE 6th & 29th BEST PROSPECTS FOR A “STUD” 38 YR OLD “MAGICIAN ON THE MOUND” WHOSE EFFECTIVE LONGEVITY HAD A USEFUL LIFE SPAN RELIANT UPON THE CONTINUED MISSING PLATE PATIENCE EXHIBITED BY OPPOSING YOUTH. EVEN MY EYEBALL EVALUATIONS INFORMED ME THAT R.A.’s KRYPTONITE WAS PLATE DISCEPLINE AS HIS STANDARD REPETOIRE OF NON-BUTTERFLIES WAS PEDESTRIAN @ BEST UNLIKELY TO DOMINATE EVEN A LOCAL BABE RUTH LEAGUE TEAM OF 17 YR OLDS+
METSIE, IS IT NOT TRUE WE FINISHED 4th WITH THE CY YOUNG WINNER AND OUR FIRST RECORDED NO-NO WITH A REPEAT PERFORMANCE BEING @ THE SAME PLATEAU OUR LIKELY DESTINY WITHOUT BOTH THIS COMING SEASON?
SURELY AS WHEELER COMBINES WITH HARVEY FOR THEIR FIRST SHARED FULL SEASON IN 2014 PROGRESS INTO THE FINAL TOP 3 CAN BE DREAMT FOR REALISTICLY AS BETTER CAN BE FORSHADOWED WHEN SYNDREGAARD JOINS THE LEAD PAIRING/
NONE OF THOSE “DREAMS” ARE LIKELY TO MATERIALIZE WITHOUT GREAT INVESTMENT OF TALENT(BELTRAN & DICKEY) INSTEAD OF MONEY SINCE MONEY OBVIOUSLY IS IN SHORTER SUPPLY YET DEMANDS PLACED TO GAIN FUTURE SUCCESS REMAIN UNCHANGED.
I FOR ONE TAKE CONSIDERABLE SOLACE FROM BEING THE ONE & ONLY TEAM WITH PROSPECTS CONSIDERED TO BE ELITE TOP `10 MATERIAL(D’ARNOUD[#6]WHEELER[#8]
ERSONALLY I CREDIT ALDERSON AS THE ONLY GM SINCE CASHEN TO HAVE THE TEMERITY TO STICK TO HIS WELL THOUGHT OUT PLAN RATHER THAN, LIKE SO MANY PREDECESSORS TO ABANDON HIS TRACK @ THE FIRST PROMISING SIDING UNDER PRESS NEGATIVE SCRUTINY
You know the best thing about having Dickey on the team was?
Not the Cy Young, not the Knuckleball…
Just the PERSON HIMSELF, someone you could take your kid to see and say you see this guy he is smart, thinks his way through the game without the need for athletic absurdity and body. Never quits, fought for everything he has…
Wins and is humble and is the perfect role model for Kids to aspire to!
Thats pure GOLD and a better reason to go to see a game than any playoff (which the average fan never gets to go to even if they MAKE it due to the Season Ticket holders getting all the tickets)
Yes we will have three players on BA’s list, but you know my feeling about that list…F-Mart used to be on it so enough said.
I’m sure d’Arnaud will be a fine player…But he will be no Dickey in either a performance or role model level. He might very well be the next immortal Met fan Favorite.
Snydergaard may be a very good pitcher but he is at least 2-3 years away from anything….
And I have stated previously if they had gotten the OFer (Gose) nstead of Snydergaard I would have been happy to have less guys on BA’s top list knowing full weell I got an OFer for the next 3 years.
As for finishing 4th, we finished 4th DESPITE him….
If Santana had not tanked midway…
If Gee had not gotten hurt…
If Harvey was brought up to replace Gee a start earlier maybe that losing streak gets broke and the bats wake up from thier slumber…
If we did not insist on Starting Bay knowing what we knew about his abilities…
If we did not focus on a Bullpen and fail….
Then we don’t wind up in 4th place WITH Dickey….
Is the future bright with the kids we have?
Well define FUTURE….
Two of the kids that make that list will be off that list come July/August.
The list goes back to being what it was when Sandy took over and 24th ranked as far as that list will be concerned.
Only the first time it was 24th all we needed was some pen one OFer and a catcher…
Now we need three OFers, a closer and we still need to fix the pen…
I call that digression not improvement….And as I sted above they didn’t even fix the finances after all this time…That too just stagnated as the cost went down so too did the revenue go down to meet the cost savings….
Which will make the last three years to have been suffered through for nothing….
Right back where we started.
Ha!
Harvey is one of the few reasons to watch this season. Just love this kid and what he represents. Hope he picks up where he left off last season.
Lets just hope that OF doesn’t inflate his ERA with thier bumbling or hurt his run support which will hurt is numbers,
which leads to hurting his confidence,
which leads to over pitching trying to get three outs on every pitch.
Which lead to Injury, Surgery and a possible loss of career because he can’t recover from it.
Thats what happened to Generation K!
You’re first sentence…that’s why I wouldn’t be opposed to signing Bourn – if it’s reasonable and we can keep the pick. Solid defense up the middle can only help with our young pitchers.
I wasn’ opposed to Bourn, but I also didn’t think he was a perfect fit by any means….
For one he bats Lefty…We have PLENTY of those!
If the price was right he could replace one of the lefties we intend to play this year….Would be a better leadoff guy than Tejada and since he plays CF he would help cover ground and let Duda cheat towards the line so the fielding is better leaving his BAT as the only question to answer on him….
The furthest I went on Bourn was if the price was right then the Pick we would have to give up to get him shouldn’t matter….I don’t expect them to do much with it anyway and even if they got a great player he wouldn’t help for another 4 years min.
I would have signed Victorino myself @2Yrs 13Mil per…
A Veteran CF, Switch Hitter, Playoff Experience and played for our rivals and could provide some insight and maybe even some of the spirit that made that team good.
Not to mention he would probably become a Philly Killer whenever we played them!
But we just sat on our hands….
Victorino in the orange and blue? Yuck, I just can’t go there….
at some point, you have to have some standards to maintain any self respect. Besides, he got 3 years (3/16? 3/29?) from Boston, and while Vicky is bad enough, 3 years of him is too much to take.
Better than 5 at the same price for burn though wasn’t it?
And who is the kid who is going to be part of the CORE to play there?
Nimmo? When will he get here?
Right around the time the Victorino contract would be expiring!
What standard was in play when we signed those guys who hit Mendoza?
From what I´ve seen of him, I don´t think there are many (if any) things that will hurt Matt Harvey´s confidence. Certainly not Lucas Duda dropping a flyball or Mike Baxter not getting there.
Yeah well a 10.0 ERA and n 0-5 record would kill even SEAVER’s confidence….
Especially if it had been in his first FULL season in the MLB….
The confidence is not the problem though…
It’s the overpitching that will come from trying to win due to OVERPITCHING because you know your numbers should be better, and decision to win the game by yourself that eventually leads to arm and shoulder problems that can ruin a promising kid!
METSIE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN I CAN BORROW YOUR CRYSTAL BALL AS U BELIEVE U CAN DECIPHER WHAT CREATED THE DEGENERATION OF “…’K” AS I BELIEVE THE WERE JUST AS LIKELY VERDUCCI’d IN MINORS AONG WITH THEIR PREDECESSOR, TIM LEARY (WHO MOST IGNORE OR EXCLUDE)
PERSONALLY, I’M SEEM TO BE PART OF A GREAT MINORITY WHO BLAMES FRANK CASHEN FOR OUR POST 80′s MISERIES SINCE HE ABSOLUTELY FAILED TO GROOM A PROPER SUCCESSOR READY & CAPABLE OF WEARING HIS SHOES. HARAZAN & McILVANE WERE EACH A HALF ASSED ANSWER WITH NEITHER BEING EXPOSED ENOUGH TO LEARN THEIR MISSING CAPABILITIES ONLY COMBINED AS “MASTER-BLASTER COULD THEY ATTEMPT COMPETANT FUNCUATION. AS FOR YEARS CASHEN KEPT THEM MIRED ONLY IN THEIR BEST PRODUCTION AREA SANS ANY CROSSOVER, LEARNING OPORTUNITIES.
CERTAINLY IT’S CRITICAL FOR ONE FRANCHISE TO PROCEED IN ONE DIRECTION AIMED AT ONE PRIMARY GOAL UNFORTUNATELY THIS, OUR BELOVED FRANCHISE, HAS RARELY KEPT IT SO SIMPLE.
I’m in that Minority with you on Cashen 62!
Cashen has a good instinct when he saw players…Added to the business Harazin covered and the scouting McIlvane Cashen could take what those guys would bring up to him look at them and make a decision on him.
Those two were merly filters for Cashen, Here is what we think Frank….Frank would Yes or NO them.
Once he stepped back those two were lost.
As for what killed GenK there are lost of reasons for their failure….But I don’t hink any are related to thier ability and selection….
Dallas Green gets some credit for ruining them. He was always known to work Pitchers to death.
But I clearly remeber at the time those guys overthrowing trying to live up to thier hype….
Green could have helped them but he put even MORE pressure on them….
Thats what led to the injuries to guys like Wilson and Pulse…
If you want kids to succeed you need to put them into good situations that will not hurt them….
We were talking here the other day about NFL draft picks succeeding quickly…
Most do because they are put on pretty good teams to start off. They are not the only player that can get things done on that team. Yet guys who get picked 1st overall bust far more often than guys who get picked in the middle, Why?
Because the guys who are first overall in the NFL are put on pretty sucky teams unless your the Colts and the only reason why you lost was because your QB was out the entire year…
With the MLB it’s different they won’t get here for 4 years….
And just taking them is not enough, you have to develop them (may be a factor here maybe not) but you also have to make sure the team you have when they are ready can create the conditions that will help them relax, stick to what they do and got them there…
If you put them in a BAD situation they will try to do too much, either FAIL miserably (cause they get away from what got them there) or they wind up hurting themselves and ruining thier career…
I think it is safe to say that ALL APPLY in some way to the three GenK pitchers….
But if they had a team that was ready to help them be all they could be we might have at least salavaged ONE of them!
And maybe even two….
METSIE, I FREELY ADMIT TO BEING MUCH MORE CAPABLE IN MLB SPEAK THAN NFLeese; REGARDLESS, I WOULD THINK THAT WITH NFL TEAMS DRAFTING TO FILL EITHER AN ABSENT TALENT OR A WEAK ONE FROM THE PRIOR SEASON THAT AS THE VETERANS LEARNED TO COMPENSATE (IN-GAME) THAT ABILITY HELPS TO BOLSTER THE EVEN LESS THAN AVG CONTRIBUTION THE DRAFTEE CAN BRING, IF I MAY ILLUSTRATE BY USING THE GIANT’ LINEBACKER WEAKNESS…
AS I WOULD CONSIDER THEIR BIG HOGS HAD TO BE MORE SELF RELIANT IN PREVENTING PENESTRATION TO INCAPABLE LINEBACKERS, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT ANY UPGRADE BACK THERE WOULD APPEAR STRONGER DUE TO THE OVER COMPENSATION AFFORDED BY THE HOGS.
SAME EFFECT IF U CONSIDER WHAT A NEW JETS’ QB MAY LOOK LIKE AFTER SANCHEZ’ HIGH TURNOVER RATE WHERE A SLIGHTLY WORSE THAN AVG RATE APPEARS AS A NEAR MIRACULOUS IMPROVMENT OVER SPORTS’ WORST RATE.
WITH BASEBALL REQUIRING MUCH MORE THAN COLLEGIATE SEASONING TO PROVIDE MLB READY PRODUCTIVITY THERE IS A LAG TIME BETWEEN DYSFUNCTIONAL POSITIONAL PLAY & DRAFTED IMPROVMENT SOLUTIONS REQUIRING @ MINIMUM 2-3 YRS OF GRADUAL IMPROVMENT BY TEMP FIXES GRADUALLY NARROWING THE GAP BETWEEN WHAT IS & WHAT TEMP-REPLACEMENTS CAN BRING TO THE POINT WHERE INSTEAD OF A WIDE CHASM NEEDING TO BE BRIDGED THERE IS AN INCREMENTAL CRACK NEEDING PERMANENT ADHESION.
BASICLY BRINGING US BACK TO THE CONUNDRUM NEVER SOLVED BY STEVE PHILLIPS’, THE “ART OF DRAFTING FOR FUTURE NEEDS” AS STEVE CHOSE TO SELECT BOTH GOOD & FAIR PITCHERS WHETHER EARLY OR LATE IN THE SELCTION PROCESS BELIEVING PITCHING OF ANY ILK COULD BE DEALT TO FILL IMMEDIATE NEEDS A PRACTICE THAT WAS PASSABLE UNTIL JEFF HIRED PETERSON TO EVALUATE THE PITCHING ASSETS EMPOWERED AS THE C.O.O. “SPECIAL ASSISTANT ON PITCHING” ALL FOUND WANTING AT PETERSON’S UNCHECKED IMPRESSION TO BE DISPATCHED “AT WILL”. AS IF PETERSON HAD A TITLE OF “PITCHING GM” , AS FIRST MiLB PITCHERS WERE CUT IN DROVES ALONG WITH BEING THROWN INTO DEALS BY BOTH DUQUETTE & MINAYA DUE TO PETERSON’S OMNIPOTENCE aka, JEF’SF ENDOWMENT OF POWER ONTO HIS “PITCHING CZAR”
ONE OF THE MANY INDICATIONS OF FRONT OFFICE BAFFOONERY THAT HAS PLAGUED OUR RANCHISE FROM ITS’ INCEPTION.
I can’t speak much to the Giants situation, only because I’m a Dolphin fan….But I can say that if they are having isses filling via the draft it’s thier own success that is hurting them get the player they need.
The big difference between NFL and MLB is you easily CAN draft for need in the NFL becauase there is no 3-4 year gap between selection and playing for the pro team in the NFL.
As for Phillips in-ability to predict and draft for future needs, his philosophy was to get Pitchers with his top picks: (and there is some who would say Pitcher was a position of need at the time)
Goetz LHP-OF
Tyner OF
Traber P
Heilman P
Kazmir P
Milledge OF
Humber P (3rd Overall)
The issue with predicting needs is yuou have to predict what your team will look like 4 years from now…Especially hard to do with Free Agency causing high turnover of the Roster.
Instead of drafting for need on the MLB squad perhaps drafting for need in the Minors is the better play….Some say draft the best player on the board…Well if the best player on the board is a 3B it really makes no sense to draft him considering Wright will be here till 2020 and at best you will get a piece of a package to trade for what you DO need.
Omar actually did quite well predicting his future needs….
He took Ike to replace Delgado, went after Tejada (IFA) to have as an option at 2B or SS when Reyes was about to expire.
Drafted Harvey to replace Santana when his contract expires plus Pelfrey and Niese to help him replace the aging Glavine…
There will always be a debate on picking for need or taking the best player…
Truth will be somewhere in between….
When you pick high in the 1st Best player is probably the right move but the rest of the draft should probably be based more on what your Minor Leagues lack and what contracts on the MLB team are due to expire in 4 years time.
Maybe Santana…he could be traded.
I’d imagine, if Gee is pitching well, they’d look to trade him to.
Santana, Gee, and Marcum…whoever gets them the best package will most likely be dealt when Wheeler is ready.
It’s got to be Santana or Marcum but most likely Santana. Yes, he has a no-trade clause but I don’t think it means squat. Those are usually protection against being traded to an undesirable spot.
I’ve got to believe at this point in his career Santana would love a shot at a ring.
Agreed. I predict Johan to LA, either one, if he’s healthy enough to make the trip.
LAD has like 8 starting pitchers right now. Probably not there.
Possible but I think they could move some of those.
Going with your argument Joe D of Wheeler coming up in May if at the time the rotation is Santana, Marcum, Niese, Harvey and Gee. Gee would most likely be the odd man out with Gee possibly sliding into the pen.
The odd man out will be Santana. Traded if he’s healthy, on the DL if he’s not.
I believe Sandy Alderson, genius that he is, will trade Johan Santana, no-trade clause and all, for Dylan Bundy, because that’s the way he rolls. Praise be his holy name.
AhhhhhhhMen!
LOL
Would not bring him up till July. If Marcum is pitching well and Sanatana I would trade both of them in July, Bring up Mejia and Wheeler for the rest of the year with a dose of Hefner or mchugh in September because of innings limit.
ah,
You’ve already decided on the last day of January, before Spring Training starts, before any Spring Training games have been played, and no regard to April, May, & June and who knows how things can develop between now and then….. that Wheeler will not be brought up until July.
Nice.
Bay are you talking about what SHOULD happen or what will?
I think if you look at it from a What Sandy would do perspective it’s not a stretch to say Wheeler doesn’t come up until the clock is safe…..
That being the right or wrong thing not withstanding…..
Wheeler is very likely to be better in spring than three of our Pitchers…
Niese usually struggles with control early…
Gee is coming off a long layoff…
Santana is going to be the talk of the town as to if he is ready because guys like him ALWAYS struggle working on specific things in spring and take it easy because they know thier spot in the rotation is safe….
Wheeler is going to go all out to try and make the team…
But Sandy is going to do what he ALWAYS does…Ignore the Performance and go for what the MONEY says to go for…..
And the MONEY says no Wheeler until that clock is started a year later….
You seem to put a lot of weight on ST results. I take them with a grain of salt.
‘
you even point out why. Veterans that are set with their spot simply look at it as prep time, getting in shape, working on specific things (regardless of the outcome). While a rookie trying to make the team goes balls to the wall, trying to impress.
but, it is not always against ML caliber competition, or maybe against a vet that decides he is throwing 20 straight changes ups, no matter what happens to them.
so teams look at where a guy was the previous year, track record, what they are seeing in workouts, along with the #s from exhibition games. As they should.
and yes, the business side (and roster management) comes into play. Guys get to spend a few extra weeks in the minors to lock in an extra year of cheap control. Guys with options go down at the expense of guys without them, to keep them both in the organization. And that is true for every team.
so you can’t simply say player X had a “better” spring so he should be on the clue at the expense of player Y.
I guess you need to re-read what I said because I said no such thing about the importance of ST results and in fact said that Santana will likely take it easy and not perform to his game state because he is working on things not trying to get guys out….
I don’t put more stock in ST numbers but I DO put more stock in them than I do numbers acquired in the Minors….
Something people seem to play UP as more meaningful than what they do vs MLB players…
Kids do better in ST because they have something to prove!
And the only thing you can take from thier Spring is if it’s BAD….Thats a sign they aren’t ready!
If they are good they will have some success and probably deserve the chance to continue that success and ride that train to the MLB.
because there is no better time to bring a kid up than while he is being successful against MLB HITTERS who are NOT taking it easy in ST…
that is exactly what you said. “Wheeler is very likely to be better in spring than three of our Pitchers” then you named 3 veterans that will be just getting ready for the season.
and you really think what a guy does in 20 or so ST innings, means more than what they did in a full season of real competition in the minors?
well, going by that logic, wheeler can’t possibly win a job in ST, because those other guys all have significant ML results to wave around. And ML real season > ST results, that is a given.
No I said he is unlikely to make the team because of the MONEY AND CLOCK ramifications regardless of his performance….
It always amazes me how much mets fan under appreciate Gee. Why would the Mets want to get rid of (or move the bullpen) a young, established, and cheap starting pitcher? I know that that sounds like the kind of guy other teams would be willing to trade for, but in reality, he wont bring back as much as someone like Santana and Marcum would if they are performing well since they are bigger names. Gee gives the Mets a chance to win every time he goes on the mound, gives us solid and relatively productive innings. I know we all want Wheeler to come up, but there is no need to rush him and plus his time will come when someone inevitably gets injured.
I know we have a lot of young, promising pitchers in the minors, but until any of them start to get close to the majors, why get rid of one of them that is already there. Keep Neise, Harvey, Gee, and Wheeler for now while we wait for others to advance to the major league level. All 4 of those guys are under 26. Wouldnt you want a young core of pitchers for now?
Making Gee the odd man out would be a mistake, just look at what happened to the team once he got hurt last season. Just saying.
I don’t think it’s about under appreciating Gee. It is looking at one scenario and making a case why Gee would be the player replaced over Santana, Marcum, Niese and Harvey all things being equal. There is also quite the possibility that Wheeler may never be called up due to struggling making all this moot but that was not the point of the post.
It’s not just Gee Kunym…..
Prett much anyone inherited from Omar and wears a Met Uni….
A guy who hit 32 HRs last year was said to be a complimentary player yesterday…..
And a guy who hit 17 last year was called a STUD worth Wheeler, Harvey or Niese to get….
Gee is our current day Rick Reed if you ask me…
I do believe you make a good point in that anyone from the old regime no matter who, has very little job security on this team. There is a hatred here that transcends from Minaya to any players he brought in. It’s very apparent and they don’t even try to hide it.
Projection, its not just a river in Egypt.
Projection is an ILLUSION that tricks the eye into thinking something is there that really is NOT!
A Movie is PROJECTED on a screen….The ACTORS are not really there, the ACTION is not REAL…It is all an Illusion to trick your mind into thinking your seeing something that isn’t really there!
It’s not really due to a hatred of the players Roxio…
They say those things about the players yet they STILL consider them part of the CORE Sandy is building and if they thought for a second Sandy could take credit for them being there the statements regarding them would be different….
It’s all about the Sandy (which is why I hate it so much)
The only way to make Sandy look good (since the Win column and next season outlook can’t do it) is to say OMAR did BAD, OMAR PLAYERS BAD….
SANDY GOOD because he NOT OMAR
SANDY PLAYERS GOOD because they NOT OMAR!
If they don’t downplay the players Omar brought here they have no excuse to support what Sandy is doing…
Thats what ALL of this is about and it’s pretty sad that Fans find is good to trash players just to support thier favorite GM!
are you talking about the FO? if so, that is a fantasy. and just as much if you are referring to the majority of posters on this site or any other. 99% of them don’t give a crap where a guy came from, under who’s watch. They just care what they can deliver.
If anything, it goes the other way with an obsessive need in some cases to defame anyone associated with the current FO and GM. But noone is trying to run players out of here simply because they came from the Omar days.
No we are referrng to the fans not the GM….
Sandy isn’t downplaying the Omar crew he is COUNTING on them since he has yet to get more than two players of his own that will have any contribution to the MLB team and won’t until July or August if he does what he says is his plan for them.
well, more power to you. I keep looking, and can’t find a single poster here that is saying to jettison all the Omar guys just because they were here when he was GM, and to relace them all with anyone that Sandy is responsible for. Or to do so with any player. Everything is about the relative merits of a guy, and what he is doing on the field. And that goes for any objective analysis of what Ike has been so far.
I can’t imagine there is any other team site where so many people are obsessed (at a personal level) with the GM, and are still more obsessed with a guy that got fired 2 years ago. Omar is gone, he ain’t coming back, just get over it already.
You need to read what people say before you respond…
No one has said they want them jettisoned in fact I said the opposite they would like to claim them as part of Sandy’s credit if they thought they could get away with paiting them as HIS….
What I said was they TRASH them as the exuse to say the team sucks, has no young CORE and needs rebuilding….
Thewy are being TRASHED as an excuse to say we aren’t ready we need more SANDY players…
But you go right on misreading things and events as you see fit….
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METSIE,FOR SOME REASON “THE REPLY BUTON” IS DYSFUNCTIONAL IN YOUIR ABOVE COMMENT IN WHICH U CITED A NUMBER OF “IF” CONSIDERATIONS I’LL PASTE HERE…
If Santana had not tanked midway…
If Gee had not gotten hurt…
If Harvey was brought up to replace Gee a start earlier maybe that losing streak gets broke and the bats wake up from thier slumber…
If we did not insist on Starting Bay knowing what we knew about his abilities…
If we did not focus on a Bullpen and fail….
MY RETORT, AFTER CAREFUL, THOUGHTFUL, UNBIASED CONSIDERATION WOULD BE…
#1 OF ALL YOUR IF’s SANTANA’S FAILURE TO COMPLETE THE SEASON, IMO, WAS THE EASIEST TO FORSEE AS HE HASN’T DONE SO IN ANY BUT 1 OF HIS NYM YEARS.
ALSO, IF I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR BAY’S CONTRACT, I, TOO, WOULD HOPE FOR ANY REBOUND OF EVEN A GOOD WEEK ON WHICH TO POSSIBLY INDUCE ANYONE TO OFFSET A SMALL AMOUNT OF THE TREASURY HE WAS DUE. AN OPPRTUNITY THAT REQUIRES HIS PLAYING NOT SITTING JUST AS THE ODDS ARE EXTREMELY LONG AGAINST A LOTTERY WIN, U CAN’T WIN UNTIL U PARTICIPATE BY BUYING A TICKET
PERSONALLY, I’M ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE CITIFIELD’S DIMENSIONS PLAYED ANY PART OF BAY’S DIFFICULTIES SINCE LF IN PNC WHERE HE FLOURISHED IS FURTHER; HOWEVER, AS A PIRATE HE PLAYED IN RELATIVE ANONYMITY; HIS BOSOX SITUATION REQUIRED PERFORMANCE UNDER PRESSURE HE NEVER VOLUNTEERED FOR; BUT ONLY EARNED JOURNEYMAN REMUNERATION; WHEREAS IN NY, HE FOUND HIMSELF UNDER A GLARING SPOTLIGHT OF HIS OWN CHOOSING, THE GLARE FROM WHICH BLNIDED HIS ABILITY TO PERFORM WITH CONSISTANCY
AT THE EARLY ONSET OF FREE AGENCY MEGA-CONTRACTS’ ‘FAILURE TO PERFORM’ UNDER THE WEIGHT OF $$$ WAS MORE APPARENT AS THIS WAS JASON’S VERY FIRST CAREER SPOTLIGHT DANCE RARELY BEFORE WAS HE EVER CONSIDERED EXTRIORDINARY WHILE AS A DEVELOPING PLAYER HE WAS TOSSED INTO MULTIPLE DEALS WHILE NEVER AS THE TARGET OF ONE REQUIRING HIM TO PROVIDE COMM,ISERATE PRODUCTION LEVELS.
GEE’S INJUREY, HARVEY’S DEAYED CALLUP? ARE MOOT ISSUES SINCE HARVEY SIMPLY WOULD HAVE MET HIS INNINGS TARGET SOONER.
METSIE, THE ISSUE IS SIMPLY “THE FUTURE” NOT “THE PRESENT” HOW MANY FUTURE YEARS COULD U HAVE ANTICIPATED FROM R.A.?
BY ACQUIRING 2 TOP 30 PROSPECTS, ALDERSON HAS EXTENDED THE PLUS EFFECT OF DIVKEY’S NYM CAREER WELL BEYONF HIS PERSONAL LIKLIHOOD TO CONTRIBUTE HOPFULLY, SOME DAY BY APRIL, 2015 WE’LL BE TREATED TO A ROTATION APPEARING MUCH LIKE WASHINGTON’S WITH DOMINANT PITCHING ABILITY FAR EXCEEDING THE PEACHFUZZ BEARDS AS WHOMEVER JOB IT IS BY THEN PENCIL’S IN HARVEY, WHEELER, SYNDERGAARD, NIESE, GEE ONTO THE LIST OF BAGS TO BE SHIPPED TO FLUSHING
Well in regards to Santana sure you could predict it but there was nothing they could do to have a remedy for him going down…
Harvey may not have had an innings limit if it wasn’t for the fact we were out of it. And we were out of it after that losing streak he could have helped snap.
Regarding Bay, lets be clear…The ONLY reason Bay was continually thrown out there was because he batted Righty and they had a shortage of RHB on the Roster. This was of thier OWN doing because if you remember in ST when they were looking for another OFer the guy they were targeting was a left handed batter to play the OF (Ankiel was one name). They should have been looking for a RHB so they forced them selves to play Bay.
Money should not have been a factor in the decision it was wasted either way. Playing him only made his money even MORE of a waste.
As for the FUTURE….
Well what is the biggest issue facing this team NOW and in the Future?
The Minor Leagues?
Or FINANCES/ATTENDANCE?
I already showed how if Attendance goes down having those players means squat as they won’t have the money to go get talent in the next two years….
Might those players (and lets be honest it’s just one for the next 2-3 years) going to win enough to offset the loss of attendance Dickey would bring?
What is d’Arnaud going to get us 5 more wins and back to 79 win team which was bad enough to fire a Manager and GM?
Is a rookie catcher going to make Niese and Harvey Cy Young runners?
Or would Dickey with his attitude and thinking about how to get Pitchers out be the bigger and more important influence to Harvey and Wheeler in the long run?
Unless Dickey has some injury that kills a season or looses the feel for the Knuckler I see him pitching for another 4-5 years….
And While d’Arnaud might be the best catching prospect in the Minors no one predicts him to be the next Posey or Piazza.
This is the SECOND team who has traded d’Arnaud away for a Cy Young winner….
And the second team who gave away the first Cy Young winner decided he wasn’t worth more than having a Cy Young winner….
In the end I hope d’Arnaud is as good as he is hyped but he is not about the FUTURE he is about the NOW….
The FUTURE is all about those revenue that lets them run the MLB team based on MLB acquisitions….
And Dickey would have done more for that future and solving that problem than d’Arnaud will.
Maybe if they got him and Gose they might have gotten enough NOW to not lose and possibly increase attendance so the financial issue goes away…
Until the financial is fixed the future of this team is going to look a lot like the last two years…
Wait for all the WANTED players come off the board then play hardball with the few remaining players hoping everyone else was wrong and you get him cheap due to the leverage.
METSIE, ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT COULD’VE ERASED THE IP LIMITATIONS PROJECTED FOR HARVEY HASN’T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO TODAY’S “GROUP THINK” IN MLB.
TO BELIEVE WINNING AGAINST PRACTICAL ODDS OVERRIDES PLANS TO PROTECT YOUR GREATEST ASSETS HAS BEEN STEINBRENERIZED IN THE NY BUBBLE FAR TOO LONG AS OUTSIDE THE BUBBLE THERE EXISTS A COMMON SENSE APPROACH THAT DOING IT RIGHT OVERRIDES DOING IT FOR GLORY OR BRAGGING RIGHTS.
AS THE RIGHT WAY CERTAINLY LEADS TO THE ATLANTA RUN OF THRE 90s
WHILE CONVERSLY THE GLORY ROAD, WHEN ACCURATE CAN CREATE NYY TITLES AS IN ’96,98,99,00,09 aka #s 23 THROUGH 27 WS TROPHIES HOISTED & WHEN TIMED INACCURATELY TO A KAZMIR 4 ZAMBRANO FIASCO.
PERSONALLY, I OPT FOR DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME SIMPLY BECAUSE IF U THEN FAIL, AS NATIONALS DID LAST SEASON, U SIMPLY CONTINUE FORWARD WITH YOUR BEST ASSETS INTACT
METSIE, THERE IS CERTAINLY MORE TO DOING IT RIGHT THAN A CARPE DIEM APPROACH BECAUSE SEIZING THE RIGHT DAY IS SUPERIOR TO SEIZING ANY OLD DAY JUST FOR THE SAKE OF GRABBING A HANDFUL(LMAO)
PATIENCE IS A QUALITY IN VERY SHORT SUPPLY “IN THE BUBBLE” FORTUNATELY WE HAVE A TRIUMVIRATE RAISED OPUTSIDE THE BUBBLE, WHO ARE PATIENCE RICH. ALDERSON, DiPOTO, RICCIARDI ALL, UNLIKE PHILLIPS,DUQUETTE,MINAYA HAVE PEDIGREES UNBLEMISHABLE BY WILPON INEPTITUDE & DUPLICITY.
62 you do realize we are talking about a grand total of 6 or 7 innings we might lose in September if we started Harvey a start earlier right?
Yet if we had started him a game earlier if the loosing streak is broken maybe they go and get that player they needed to make the decision hard or irrelevant in September…
But it’s Water under the bridge…
On rebuilding the RIGHT way…
Do you really think this is the RIGHT way?
What have we rebuilt?
We traded a Cy Young pitcher to get d’Arnaud and Beltran to get Wheeler….
So in essence you traded Wheeler for Cy Young Dickey and Beltran for an upgrade of Thole.
That is if they are all everyone projects and don’t bust once they get here….
That leaves Snydergaard to make up for Reyes, K-Rod, and Pagan. And he won’t be here for another 2-3 years.
Rebuilding the RIGHT way as you say DOES work….But only if done at the right TIME the way the Braves and Phillies and yes even the yankees did….
They didn’t start the rebuild while they were a 3rd or 4th place team….
They all started when they were one of the worst teams in the league and got top 10 Picks to rebuild with.
Neither the Yankees, Brave or Phillies traded away thier starts to fill up thier Minors…They drafted and only AFTER those picks were made and those picks were close to coming up did they then look to trade away some MLB talent to augment and the talent they traded was able to be replaced by those picks.
So Yes the right way works provided your in position to do it the right way….
This team is NOT in that position and for all the horse trading to get kids the truth is this REBUILD consists of Two trades for SUPERSTARS in Beltran and a Cy Young winner and there isn’t a team in history that has ever rebuilt by trading players like that….
METSIE, BEFORE WE ATTEMPT TO COMPLETELY OBFISCATE HISTORY BY OBLITERATING IT IN A REWRITE EDITION LET’S FOCUS FIRST ON THOSE TEAMS U CREDITED WITH DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY… ATLANTA, PHILADELPHIA & NY YANKEES: TO BEGIN WE NEED A MEASUREMENT STAKE IN THE GROUND MARKING THE TURNAROUND YR FOR EACH OF THEM. AFTER CAREFUL EVALUATION OF STANDINGS SINCE 1980 I’D CHOOSE 1991 AS ATLANTA’S SEASON, 2003 FOR PHILADELPHIA WITH 1993 EARMARKING YANKEES RESURGANCE TO WINNING. WITH THAT IN MIND AS THE POINTS IN WHICH EACH HAD THEIR REBUILDING STRATEGIES BEGAN TO ALTER THEIR FINISHES. A CLOSE EXAMINATION SHOWS THAT PRIOR TO THEIR SUSTAINED RUN OF 15 CONSECUTIVE FIRST PLACE OR SECOND PLACE FINISHES THE ATLANTA BRAVES SUFFERED THROUGH 6 CONSECXUTIVE YEARS OF LAST OR NEXT TO LAST FINISHES MOSTLY AS PART OF THE NL WESTERN, LESS COMPETITIVE APORTIONMENT. WHILE PRIOR TO 2003 THE PHILLIES FINISHED DEAD LAST IN NEARLY HALF[3] OF THE PRIOR 8 SEASONS WHILE THE YANKEES PREVIOUS TO ’91 LANGUISHED “OUT OF CONTENTION IN THE BOTTOM HALF IN DIVISION I ALL 6 YRS FROM ’87 THROUGH ’92.
LET ME SEE, WE’VE NOW HAD 6 COMPLETED SEASONS SINCE THE ’06 SEASON WITH 2 SECOND PLACES, 4 FOURTH PLACES AND U COMPLAIN ABOUT DOING IT RIGHT? & LOSING PATIENCE?
IN MY ESTIMATION, OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM HAS BEEN A TOTAL & COMPLETE LACK OF PATIENCE IN EXPECTING TO BATTLE FOR BACKPAGE SPACE TOO QUICKLY BECAUSE WE FORFIETED TOO MANY DRAFT PICKS IN OUR POCKETBOOK RESTRUCTURING OF A PRE-FAB FRANCHISE UNLIKE BRAVES & PHLs WHO HOARDED PICKS AS BEING MORE PRECOUS FOUNDATIONALLY THAN IMMEDIATE RESULTS NEITHER OF THEIR ONE NEWSPAPER(AJC) (ENQUIRERER) EVER CALLED FOR.
ONE MORE LAST ISSUE DICKEY WAS NOT EXHANGED FOR d’ARNOUD; BUT d’ARNOUD AND SYNDERGAARD WITH POTENTIALLY 2013 & 2015 AS RESPECTIVE ANTICIPATED ARRIVAL DATES
METSIE, IN TRUE REALITY THE METS DURING THE PHILIPS & MINAYA ERAS WERE NOT GOING TO GET A SHOT AT SIGNING DRAFT TALENTS EQUIVILENT TO WHEELER, d’ARNOUD OR SYNDERGAARD SIMPLY BECAUSE OWNWERSHIP HAD FOOLISHLY COMMITTED TO SLOT RESTRICTIONS DESPITE FEW OTHER TEAMS BEING COMPLACENT TO VOLUTARY RESTRAINTS
METSIE, HAVING LAID OUT THE STRATEGIES FOLLOWED BY ATL & PHL DO U BELIEVE THEY WOULD SCOFF OR DISCOUNT A SYNDERGAARD MERELY BECAUSE HE WAS 2 MAYBE 3 SEASONS AWAY?
SURELY THE CHOICE OF TORONTO BEING WILLING TO SURRENDER 2 TOP 30 PROSPECTS PROVIDED A MORE SUBSTANTIAL REASON TO SURRENDER A SINGULARLY EFFECTIVE STARTER UNLIKELY TO ALTER THE FUTURE BY VIRTUE OF HIS PERSONAL APPEAL OR CONTRIBUTIONS.
U MENTIONED UPGRADING THOLE RATHER DERISIVELY WHILE I’D COUNTER THAT BY MERELY EVALUATING THE d’ARNOUD ADDITION AS A THOLE UPGRADE IS LIKELY TANTAMONT TO A ’98 FAN SPECULATING THE PIAZZA ADDITION WAS UPGRADING THE CASTILLO/PRATT TANDEM OR MORE LIKELY JOHN STEARNS AS A HODGES UPGRADE.
MY FRIEND, AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED HOW THOLE SQUEEZED HIS EYES COMPLETELY SHUT WHENEVER HE SENSED A SWING BY THE BATTER?
NO WONDER HE LED IN PASSED BALLS & IT HAD ZERO TO DO WITH KNUCKLEBALLS! HELL, A PURE STRAIGHT WALL CLOSE AT HAND FOR TRUE BOUNCEBACKS WOUILD SUFFICE AS A MERE UPGRADE! EITHER THAT OR A BLIND CATCHER WITH BEEPER BALLS. THOLE’S LUCKY TO CATCH A COLD LET ALONE MLB PITCHES WITH WRINKLES FACING A BATTER, WHO MIGHT SWING & FOUL ONE TO THE MASK.
TO ME, PERSONALLY, THOLE’S INVOLUNTARY MALFUNCTIONING IS NEARLY AS DISTURBING AS SASSER’S ISSUES.
ON A FINAL POSITIVE POINT TO MY REBUTTAAL YOUR STATEMENT REGARDING HARVEY’S CALLUP, I BELIEVE FORTIFIES MY RGUEMENT AGAINST AN EARLIER CALLUP WHERE HE’D BEEN SHUTDOWN & INACTIVE BY MID-SEPTEMBER IN LIEU OF KEEPING HIM ACTIVE THROUGHOUT THE REMAINING MLB SEASON. WHILE BOTH DATE WERE MORE LIKELY TOO LATE TO MATTER.
62 you talk abot when they ascended back to winning…..
But when did the REBUILDING start?
In the case of the Braves and the Phillies a lot longer than 6 years!
Braves lost the NLCS in 82. Finished 2nd two year after that…Started thier rebuild in 85 where they were in the cellar. So those 6 years started AFTER they were in the cellar. SO start your 6 year clock after THIS year not two years ago!
We have dismantled the team the last two years to GET to the place where a rebuild is possible but we have not got there yet!
Phillies Lot WS in 1993. Took the 13 years to get back to playing for something.
It’s one thing to do what we did when your already the worst team in the league and have the pick placement to rebuild with….
It’s quite another to trade away talent to get to that point!
At best, the way we have done things it will be 6 more years before we can be rebuilt!
Not two or three which is even LESS optimistic than the daily propaganda bunch are saying….
Until we are 5th of 5th for a couple of years in a row we will NOT have the ability to rebuild.
And what we have done so far has only helped us SUCK enough to get there!
So pick whatever number of years you think it takes to rebuild a team and start the clock when the NEXT offseason starts….
The Yankees being the exception to this and WHY?
Because they kept on buying and paying the talent they had so when they got a few kids they could hit the ground running….
We have NOT done that because we didn’t have the PICK they had to get the Jeters and traded away anyone who would HELP a Jeter to get the players we have…
One thing to be patient…But if Patience was in order then they should have WAITED to rebuild until they were the worst team in baseball then when they had a few top picks in development THEN look to make the trades of Talent that you will replace with those kids.
Thats what Cashen did! But he too started off with the worst team with the highest picks….
He didn’t TRADE us into that position we were already there!
Thats the difference between what WE are doing and what the Braves, Phillies and Yankees did!
METSIE, IT WOULD TAKE A TOTAL SCRAPPING OF OUR ROSTER TO BEAT THE MARLINS @ THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM U CONSIDER NECESSARY TO FOLLOW PREVIOUS MODELS OF LAST PLACE FINISHES AS A REBUILDING COMMENCEMENT POINT. YOUR CHOICE OF NYY IS UNIQUE; BUT CERTAINLY INDICATES THE FLAW IN OMAR’S ORIGINAL ’05 PLANNING AS IT WAS “UNDONE” BY WILPONS’ SELIG ALLREGANCE. I DISTINCTLY RECALL A “BREAKFAST INTERVIEW IN THE DOMINICAN BETWEEN, I BELIEVE, BILL MADDEN & OMAR MINAYA, AS OMAR AWAITED A RESPONSE FROM PEDRO OR BELTRAN.
BILL MSDDEN POINTEDLY ASKED OMAR IF HE WAS CONCERNED WITH SACRIFICING THE DRAFT SELECTIONS REQUIRED TO INK SUCH KEY PLAYERS? TO WHICH OMAR RESPONDED BY ALLUDING TO HOW NYY & BOSOX MANAGED TO APPROACH THE DRAFT WITHOUT FIRST ROUND POSITIONS, ALLUDING TO THE ‘POACHING’ OF DROPPED DOWN FIRST ROUNDERS WITH LARGE BONUS PROMISES DESPITE LATER SELECTION.
MADDEN RETORTED BY POINTING OUT THE WILPON’S PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED INTENTION TO ADHERE TO THE COMMISSIONER’S RECOMMENDED SLOTTING GUIDELINES. AS I RECALL, OMAR WAS TAKEN ABACK SINCE AS MONTREAL’S GM HE’D NOT PAID AS CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS TYPE OF INNUENDO, AS OMAR RESPONDED WITH A WEAK,” I’LL LOOK INTO THAT, COMMISIONERS’S RECOMENDATIONS ARE NOT BINDIN”, G TYPE OF RETORT. HISTORY HAS PROVEN OMAR WAS UNSUCCESSFUL IN GETTING WILPONS TO WALK BACK THEIR FOOLISLY ANNOUNCED INTENTIONS AS THEY DELIBERATLY SCUTTLED THE POTENTIAL TO RECONSTRUCT A MLB WINNER WHILE STOCKING A FARM SYSTEM EFFECTIVELY. GIVEN HIS CHOICE OF EITHER OR OMAR’S DECISION TO CONCETRATE ON MLB IS NOW A HISTORICAL FACT.
’05 WAS ALSO OMAR’S LAST BIG INT’L BONUS SIGNINGS AS HE INKED 16 YR OLDS IN F-MART & GO-GO GOMEZ OF THE DR. RELATED? WHO KNOWS? CERTAINLY A CIRCUMCSTANCIALLY INTERESTING COINCIDENCE.
METSIE, EITHER WAY, 2013 WITH OR WITHOUT THE DICKEY DEAL WILL LIKELY END IN 4th PLACE FINISH. THE KEY QUESTION WOULD BE WHICH IS THE MORE LIKELY LONGTERM UGRADE AS OF 2013. R.A., THOLE, NICKEAS OR d’ARNOUD, SYNDERGAARD?
WITH HARVEY & WHEELER ALREADY PENCILED IN FOR A 2015 PLANNING ROTATION OF A) DICKEY,HARVEY, NIESE, WHEELER, GEE OR
B) HARVEY, WHEELER, NIESE, SYNDERGAARD, GEE
A DECISION FAVORING EITHER CAN CERTAINLY BE DEFENDED ADEQUATELY UNTIL U INCLUDE FRANCHISE FINANCIAL STABILITY AS A CONSIDERATION.
METSIE, THERE CAN NEVER BE A COMPLETELY LEVEL PLAYING FIELD ON WHICH A SENSICAL COMPARISON OF ATL,PHL,NYY WITH NYM CAN BE BASED. AS IN SPORTS, THE MEDIA PLAYS A CONSIDERABLE ROLE IN THE ALL IMPORTANT PERCEPTION POSITION AS BOTH THE BRAVES & THE PHILLIES LUXURIATE IN THE PRESS POND DOMINATED BY A SINGLE BIG FISH THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION(AJC) COVERING THE BRAVES WITH GHOMER AFFECTION AND A MORE CHALLENGING PHILADELPHIA ENQUIRER AS THE SOLE INQUISITOR” IN CHARGE” HARBORING A LOVE/HATE HOT/COLD PERSONIFICATION OF “FIGHTIN’ PHILS” TO THEIR [PREDOMINANTLY BLUECOLLARED READERSHIP OF BRAWLING OVER FINESSING ENTHUSIASTS.
METSIE, AS A FORMER GA RESIDENT I CAN ATTEST TO ATLANTA’S BEING POPULATED HEAVILY BY WHITE-COLLARED TRANSIENTS ON BUSINESS RELATED LIFE JOURNEYS WHO MOSTLY BECAME BASEBALL FANS OF TEAMS NOT ADORNED WITH FEATHERS OR WARPAINT. FEW INVESTED HEARTS & SOULS BLEEDING ATLANTA COLORS OF ANY KIND IN ANY SPORT.
FINALLY, THE YANKEES ALREADY HAD ESTABLISHED THEIR DOMINANT ‘TITLE’ SUCCESSION BY 1962 MAKING A PERCEPTION OF EQUALITY THE MOST UNLIKELIEST OF POSSIBILITIES ESPECIALLY AS THE METS CHOSE TO RELY UPON FORMER YANKEES IN SUCH IMPORTANT NAVIGATIONAL ROLES AS GM & FLD MNGR
Actually 62 all it would take to be the worst team in the division is to lose any one of Wright, Davis, Niese or Harvey to injury for awhile.
The Marlins won 69 games last year…Thats just 5 games less than we won last year.
And we traded away the guy who won 20 games last year….
Worst team in the League (Houston) won 55 Games…
Thats just a 19 game difference and if they improve by 10 games while we decline by 10 we ARE the worst team in the League….
Lets be honest we are much closer to being the WORST team in the league than we are from being the best!
And we are at least 14 games away from the Wildcard….
Losing a Cy Young Pitcher to get an improvement on Thole is not going to make up that difference!
And if 2014 is when people think we are close enough to do something about it then they should have done something THIS year about it since there isn’t anything coming up after them to wait for.
METSIE, #1 HOUSTON IS NO LONGER IN NL MIX STARTING THIS SEASON
#2 THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THINKING $$$ OFF OF PAYROLL WILL BE REDEDICATED TO TEAM INVESTMENT AS THE TEAM IS A SIDE BUSINESS FOR OWNERSHIP WHO ARE STILL LIKELY I NEED OF MASSIVE DEBT REIEF
THE CAPITAL NEEDED FOR WILLETS’ POINT DEVELOPMENT HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE SINCE THE MOST LIKELY INVESTMENT RESOURCES HAVE EVAPORATED COMPLETELY AS DID ALL THE $$$ IN ESCRIOW TO SATISFY ACTIVE DEFERRED PAYMENTS TO MOST LIKELY SANTANA, BONILLA, BELTRAN AND LIKELY OTHERS. EXECUTIVE’S 401K & IRA ACCOUNTS MOST LIKELY DISINTEGRATED AS WELL STERLING EQUITIES, NOT WILPON OWN THESE METS FRED IS MERELY “THE FACE” WHILE JEFFREY SERVES AS THE “AH”.
#1 does that mean Houston no longer gets to pick in the draft?
#2 no one is saying they HAVE to re-invest it…But if they want people to come to the park they had better start or they will have saved NO MONEY and lose 50Million without any other players left to cut that can save them the money Attendance isn’t getting for them to pay the bills.
I think we both would assume more wins from Harvey and if Marcum is healthy that also helps make up the difference. However, of course they will miss a CY pitcher. You have to hope that other players take the next step, that Niese becomes the top of the rotation type pitcher, Gee is healthy, Harvey marches forward and Wheeler comes up as a solid guy down the line.
But thats the problem isn’t it….We all run to say the team is better due to that trade but the truth we are just ASSUMING it is just as many ASSUMED the Pagan Trade was a good day….
Everything you said is HOPE, ASSUMPTION and Prayer….
Lets just for discussion sake say they DO make up for Dickey and we win 74 games this year…
How does that make us closer to winning and ready to BUY talent in 2014 compared to 2013?
And how will 2014 be any different and not cause us to trade Niese as quickly as we traded Dickey for the same reasoning?
Sure those kids might make up for performance…But they won’t equal the attendance which is the KEY metric that will determine if we buy or sell next year.
If Attendance stays static, and they lose another 23 Mil then we are still in the same boat too far away to row to shore…
If Attendance drops then Niese or some other top performer is traded for the same reasons Dickey was….No sense in Rowing to shore just keep bailing for another year….
The only way these guys make up for Dickey is if they draw as much as him Which means they have to out perform him and thats only possible IF you ASSUME they are going to win the Cy Young this year….
Anyone assuming that here?
My guess, wheeler won’t come up until a spot naturally opens up for him. So if it is May and the rotation is all healthy and productive, they won’t immediately make a move.
so who Wheeler replaces will likely be the guy that gets hurt.
If it gets into July say, and they are all pitching well, and wheeler really has earned a promotion, then the issue will be solved by trading marcum or Santana. Unless, of course, the Mets are actually in the playoff race, in which case they may keep them all and work out something with the Pen.
Yeah, it certainly would be a good problem to have to have no room for Wheeler this year. I still think if Johan is tradeable they will do so in July regardless.
July will be the key….If Santana does well they trade him and bring up Wheeler…
METSIE, UNFORTUNATELY YOU ARE THINKING THAT A” TITLE” AS THE UNIVERSAL GOAL IN FLUSHING’S PENTHOUSE. ALDERSON HAS ALREADY SCOFFED @ YOUR SHORTSIGHTEDNESS BY CLEARLY EXPLAINING THE GOAL IS ACTUALLY BUILDING A POTENTIAL FOR A STRING OF TITLES, IN ACTUALITY, TO BUILD A STRONG ENOUGH, YOUNG ENOUGH ROSTER SO THAT THE FIRST COMMITTED TO YR TO BEGIN BE IT ’14 OR ’15 IT IS NOT A RETREADING OF ’06 AS ONE & DONE OR EVEN OF ’99′s 2 SUCCESSIVELY
METSIE TO A MAN WITH THAT VISION;ONE YR ATTENDANCE + OR [-] MEANS NOTHING AND IS AN ANTICIPATED COST TO DOUING BUSINESS AS HE TRIES TO SMOOTH OUT THE DIPS & DROPS WITH AN OVERALL ENTERTAINING BUNCH OF GAMERS AS PREFERABLE TO A SINGLE CROWD INSPIRING HEADLINER WHO MAY ENSURE FANNIES EVERY 5th GAME WHILE A BUNCH SUPPLYING GRITTY COMPETITIVENESS IS ENTERTAINING EVERY NIGHT.
WHERE I BELIEVE ALDERSON WAS SOMEWHAT BLINDSIDED IS THE ADDED TEAMS TROLLING IN THE SAME WATERS TARGETING THE SAme prospects for veterans deals AS BOTH HOUSTON & SUDDENLY MIAMI APPEARED IN THE SAME “BAY OF GROWTH. ” ARMED WITH THE SAME BAIT(VETERANS)
EVERTY GM SINCE 88 HAS HAD PROJECTIONS & REBUILDING PLANS FOR IMPROVMENT; EACH ALLOWED THOSE PLANS TO BE SHREDDED BY LISTENING TO SHORTSIGHTED FANS & JADED WITH PAST PROMISES FANS, THE BLOOD-THIRSTY PRESS & FINALLY WE HAVE THIS NON BASEBALL DEPENDENT BUSINESSMAN/LAWYER WHO, FOR NOTHING ELSE, IS THE MIOST SELF ASSURED EXECUTIVE TO PRESIDE IN FLUSHING FOR QUITE SOMETIME.
HISDTORICAL RECORDS SHOW THAT VISIONRIES ARE OCCASIONALY THE BEST LEADERS; BUT PRAGMATIC VISIONARIES WITH SELF CONFIDENCE IN EXCESS OF NAYSAYERS SURROUNDING THEM ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE & SUCCESSFUL OF ALL.
IN BASEBALL, I PERSONALLY CAN EASILY NAME TWO SUCH MEN IN BRANCH RCIKEY & GEORGE STEINBRENNER. DESPITE DIFFERENT PATHS.
CERTAINLY MUCH OF THE PRESSURE FROM BOTH BACKPAGE DENIZENS & FANS WOULD HAVE BEEN ALLEVIATED BY RELENTING TO AZ’s UPTON DEMANDS FOR REPORTEDLY WHEELER & d’ARNOUD, SURELY PHILLIPS,DUQUETTE & MINAYA WOULD HAVE SHREDDED EARLIER DESIGNS AND ALTERED COURSE FOR THE QUICK EASY PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE.
THE SMPLE FACT THAT ALDERSON STOOD FIRM UNRELENTINGLY GIVES ME CONFIDENCE IN HIS ABILUITY TO REMAIN COOL & STEADY UNDER FIRE AS HE BELIEVES BOTH THOSE TALENTS, THOUGH UNPROVEN & NON-GUARANTEED ARE MORE LIKELY TO HELP ACCOMPLISH HIS STRING OF PEARLS(WINNING SEASONS)
But 62 Sandy can explain what he is doing any way he wants….
But it’s not fitting his actions!
We started off needing a Catcher, some pen and one OFer…
Two years later we got a MAYBE for a Catcher and now need THREE OFers, a Starting Pitcher (on TOP of Wheeler), a Leadoff Hitter and someone in there a Power RH bat.
I don’t know how anyone can say Wheeler and d’Arnaud adds enough to the kids we already had to make this team a long term consistent competitor….And thats just a HOPE and a PRAYER not a promise of a fact.
Even if you think it can be rebuilt by trading veterans for kids…Look at the return from doing that…
Beltran, Dickey, K-Rod, and Reyes and what came in? Wheeler and d’Arnaud. Thats two all stars for every MAYBE! At this rate we would have to have a team Comparable to the Yankees of old to get 5 kids as a core.
Then look at all of his FA signings…How many kids there? How many YOUNG guys? How many who hit above .250 in the MLB?
He can talk and project all he wants but I don’t go to see his stated word I go to see the players on the field and the way he is operating it will be 20 years before this team gets to that long term competitiveness and thats after a long time in the cellar where we will get the kids that will replace EVERY player Sandy has brought in to date!
Cause thats all it takes to get a Wheeler and D’Arnaud…Suck and pick at the top!
LET’S REVIEW YOUR LIST, SHALL WE?
Beltran, Dickey, K-Rod, and Reyes METSIE DOES MR. PEABODY KNOW U’VE MISAPPROPRIATED HIS MACHINE?
LET US SEE WHAT U SHOULD HAVE SEEN…BELTRAN, [AT TIME OF TRADE]?
REPRESENTED BY BORAS WITH JUST A COUPLE OF MONTHS LEFT TO HIS LAST NY SEASON @ MEGAMILLIONS WITH 2 KNEES COMPRISED OF BAILING WIRE & DUCT TAPE, JUST ONE MISSTEP FROM PERMANANTLY DISAPPEARING FROM A NL, MLB LINEUP.
DICKEY, A FANTASTIC HUMAN BEING & TRUTHFULLY, A GOOD LOCKERROOM PRESENCE BY ALL UNTAINTED REPORTS,UNSELFISH, RELIABLE & REASONABLE, AN OUTSTANDING HUMANITARIAN MNGT MANIPUL;ATED ROTATION TO SECURE HIS 20Ws WITH THOSE 20Ws A 4th PLACE FINISH, UNLIKELY TO IMPROVE WITH HIS CONTINUED SERVICE BEYOND AGE 38, ESPECIALLY SINCE AN IMPROVED SUPPORTING CAST NOT IN FORSEEABLE FUTURE FOR AT LEAST 2 YRS AS KEEPING HIM WITH HARVEY & WHEELER GIVES U ONLY 3 STUD PITCHERS SANS OFFENSIVE SUPPORT WITH A WEAK “UP-THE-MIDDLE” CONTINGENT OF A JOURNEYMAN CATCHER, MURPHY,TEJADA & JOURNEYMAN CFer’; HOWEVER THE ALTERNATIVE IS A FUTURE WITH 3 PRIME AGED POWER PITCHING STUDS HARVEY,WHEELER,SYNDERGAARD AN IMPROVED UP-THE-MIDDLE OUTLOOK WITH d’ARNOUD(RHH W/POTENTIAL POP) WITH THE CONCEPT BEING CONTINUED CONTENTION FROM 2014….TO FORSEEABLE HORIZON, CERTAINLY DICKEY FALLS OFF THE TALENT DEPTH CHART LONG BEFORE SYNDERGAARD’S PROJECTION.
REYES? AN UNDESIRABLE COMPONENT BASED UPON WILPON DISAPPOINTMENT. OBVIOUSLY DESIRED BY SANDY, IMO, UNSUPPORTED BY OWNERSHIP FORCING ALDERSON TO KEEP POCKETED THE L;IKELY MISERLY OFFER HE PRIED OUT OF FRED’S TIGHTLY SEWN POCKETS. IF SANDY’S CHOICE WAS JETTISONING JOSE, OBVIOUSLY HE’D HAVE BEEN DEALT PRIOR TO BELTRAN FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON, UNRELIABLE LEGS/PERFORMANCE APRIL-OCTOBER. LORIA’S LARGER PKG MADE METS’ OFFER POINTLESS TO SHOW RISKING PUBLIC OUTRAGE @ LACK OF FUNDS FURTHER DAMAGING THE F/A DESIRE FOR CITI ADDRESS. OFFER STAYED FOLDED, UN-MADE!
METSIE, BEFORE U COUNTER WITH CRITICISM REGARDING THE QUANTITY OF IFS & MAYBES IN THAT VISION, CONSIDER THE ALTERNATIVE WAS ALREADY ATTEMPTED BY MINAYA & SINCE OWNERSHIP IS CONSISTANT THE FAUILURE TO ADD PRICEY QUALITY DEPTH WILL MOST LIKELY CONTINUE UNLESS THAT DEPTH IS HOME FERTILIZED BY UNSQUANDERED DRAFT PICKS LOST BY INKING QUALIFIED F/A NEEDED TO REMOVE IFs & MAYBEs.
METSIE, MY FRIEND, U CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS U CAN’T SIMULTANEOUSLY SIGN & DEVELOP AS EVENTUALLY THE SIGNINGS DRY IP YOUR PIPELINED PRODUCT.
UNLESS U ROOT NYY U MUST ACCEPT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF IFs & MAYBEs AS MODELED BY BOTH ATLANTA & ST LOUIS AS BOTH HAVE GAMBLED THEIR PIPELINERS’ IFs WERE TOLERABLE TO REPLACE THE LIKES OF PUJOLS, GLAVINE, SORIANO. U NEED TO GET USED TO NOT KNOWING; BUT HOPING.
You mention the high probability of injury yet ignore the fact that just about everyone he has signed is OLD and coming off injury…..
As for your Boras mention…How much did Beltran get from the Cards again?
What numbers did he put up for that money?
You CAN sign players, Maintain a competitive MLB team WHILE you rebuild the minors….
Just draft well and don’t trade kids away!
Have we traded Kids away? NOPE!
Have we drafted well? Yet to be seen it’s sure not looking good since we found it neccesary to trade away a Cy Young pitcher to take the place our second highest draft pick to date was meant to fill @ Catcher.
Omar did both at the same time and managed to get to the playoffs in year two!
Any attempt to say what he did hurt this franchise is wrong…It wasn’t his buying that hurt us it was that he didn’t buy ENOUGH and go get that second ACE every WS winner has to carry them through.