I’m sure it’s cleaner simply because we are not seeing any superhuman feats of strength but then a year ago the NL MVP was tested positive for steroids and got off a legal technicality even a Sandy Alderson would be proud of. We also still read of minor leaguers getting caught due to the tougher testing rules and eventually nine percent of minor leaguers do become major leaguers.

There is one player I think many of suspect does because of his sudden surge of power – Jose Bautista. The past three years he has been putting up Hank Aaron numbers while during his many other past seasons was only able to generate no more than 16 in any one year.

As for Mike, even though I think he was clean, he also brought the doubt upon himself by simply being loyal to his colleagues and not taking a stand one way or the other. That is what all those from his era will have to contend with. They all deserve to be second guessed for turning a deaf ear to the situation.

In the end the players that have been nominated have supposedly ALREADY met that litmus test to be confirmed by the voters….

If all the PEDS users had not been exposed we wouldn’t even be talking about Bagwell and Piazza they wouldn’t even get close to the votes of Bonds and Clemons….

The only reason why they are in this race is the voters want to send a message and they can only do that by MAKING a vote and voting for whats left.

How many years has it ever happened where NO ONE on the ballot got voted in or that no one got enough votes to get in that year?

And how many years was the ballot so weak that someone got in who shouldn’t have merely because they were the best of the bad bunch?

Unless they send back a blank Ballot (and some writers have in the past to no avail) someone gets in and it doesn’t mean they deserve to just that of all the people on the ballot he got more than everyone else.

Neither Obama or Romney had what it takes to be president either but one of them won the election didn’t they?

Owners don’t care about the record books…Why should they?
All they care about is attendance and production and PEDs hurt neither of those…

It comes down to the Owners saying if the Players want to kill themselves to get us to pay more thats thier problem. Why should we stop them from doing something that hurts them not us?

If 15-20 years from now Jeff Francouer is the best right fielder amongst those on same ballot, does he get your vote if per se, you had one? Presumably you know the difference between an All- Star Game Ballot and that of Hall of Fame.

I think you got yourself twisted into pretzel trying to validate Bagwell’s candidacy, and have subsequently dug yourself in deeper, trying to save face. Bagwell’s credentials are worthy of Hall of Fame consideration on their own accord. The quality of other first basemen on the ballot – better or worse – doesn’t matter.

And you’re no more responsible, than I, when those with Hall of Fame votes, abuse the privilege and make irrational decisions like some have. on current ballot. I believe they should be stripped of their privileges for making such mockery of the process,

Really, all parties are to blame. The only ones who I feel don’t deserve any blame are the media and the fans, who some like to say facilitated the cheating as well.

Which one is on this Ballot competing with him?
Hmmm?

Hmmm?

You think you know how the voting is supposed to go but you have heard many explanations for why people voted the way they did that had NOTHING to do with what you propose it’s all about!

People voted for Bonds and Clemmons…How does that fit in what you think the standard is?

And the Players did at thier OWN expense…They didn’t really hurt the fans as we saw the HRs we LOVE to see regardless of cheat or not….

No the Players only hurt themselves and the RECORD book they strive to get thier name in and now their name goes in with an asterix!

They resisted testing even after the Owners agreed to do it at the end of the Congressional gun to thier head and while they may have looked the other way they sure didn’t force them to us…

The Agents saw the dollars to be gained as did the Players….Hit 60 Hrs in your walk year and your set for life!
Get caught? So what you still get to cash the check!

The players are to blame they hurt themselves (healthwise), they hurt their fellow union memebers costing them money or forcing them to use, and they hurt thier legacy by making the record book a sham and their Hall status in doubt….

You know who should vote?
The League and the Players themselves….
Then it would be a REAL honor because your peers would have put you there not some Writer who probably has never even been to the hall and wasn’t born when the real HOFers were playing….

But these guys aren’t making decision by doing statistical analysis…
They are going by who is on the ballot and who did better than someone else over the course of an entire career…

SO while all those guys you listed have more HRs @1B it really doesn’t matter since they aren’t on the ballot to take votes away.

You want to make a case for them not being on the ballot at all I’m with you but it seems every year SOMEONE gets in and there are Nominees every year regardless of if they belong or not…

They have to vote for who is nominated and thier decisions will be based on that more than anything else….

A Ballot full of guys who don’t deserve to be in the hall will elect ONE of them to the hall which is why you always hear the argument well if he got in this guy should too…
But the reason he got in was most likely because he got on a very weak ballot and got enough votes because none of the other players who didn’t deserve to get in either did…

It’s really a flawed voting system and I think they LIKE it that way because it gets people talking about the sport at a time no one but kids in the southern hempsphere are playing it!

But since you wanted to use fielding %:
Mark Grace .995
JT Snow .995
Todd Helton .996
Derrek Lee .994
John Olerud .995
Raf Palmeiro .994
Don Mattingly .996
Wally Joyner .994
Mark Teixera .997
Tino Martinez .995
Albert Pujols .994
Doug Mientkiewicz .996
Darrin Erstard .996
David Segui .995

So Bagwell’s career .993 % means he was one of the best defensive 1B in his era? There’s 14 1B who according to your measurement of skill were better at 1B so how does Bagwell rank as “one of the best defensive 1B”?

You pat yourself on the back as if you’re gold medal brainiac, for what, unbeknownst to you, is not how players are judged as Hall of Fame worthy. You make yourself look foolish. The players on the ballot merely reflect eligibility relative to minimum of 10 years in the majors, what year they retired and whether they accrued the minimum necessary on previous ballots to remain on subsequent ones for total of 15 years. There can be no one on current ballot who retired before 1992. Eligibility starts 5 years after the player’s final season, with maximum of 15 years on ballot for those who’ve played 10 or more years.

On rare occasions, eligibility requirements were waived following tragic deaths as was the case for Roberto Clemente and Kirby Puckett.

There’s also a special committee that includes current Hall of Famers who can vote in players who were on the ballot for 15 years but never got voted in the standard way.

I may be in the minority but I really believe the game is mostly clean now. You won’t see any more power displays such as what happened with Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire. So at least we can be thankful for that,

Shame on Chass, Rubin, Davidson, Noble and the others. Disgraceful.

When comparing the number of homers between players, one must consider total number of AB’s which you didn’t.

Bagwell – 449 in 7,797 AB’s

Piazza – 427 in 6,911 AB’s.

The difference of nearly 900 AB’s is equivalent to two full seasons for an everyday catcher. For Piazza, that amounts to another 50-70 homers at least.

And when comparing a catcher with non-catchers, the grueling nature of the position, must also be considered. including, but not limited to worn down knees and beat up hands and body from ions of foul tips,

Mike Piazza has more home runs than any catcher in the history of the game.

Jeff Bagwell does not have more home runs than any first baseman in history. There are dozen first basemen who’ve hit more including:

Carlos Delgado
Willie Stargell
Albert Pujols
Fred McGriff
Lou Gehrig
Eddie Murray
Willie McCovey
Rafael Palmeiro
Mark McGwire
Harmon Killebrew
Jimmie Foxx

Mike belongs in as a 1st time HOF, no matter what these holier than God writers think they are.

Add to that was Mike’s throwing arm having no pop to it toward the end of his career. Steroids would have made it more un-naturally powerful and he was bouncing throws to second base. Pudge Rodriguez, on the other hand, was throwing out base stealers with his knees on the ground – which meant no momentum in his throw.

Remember how slim McGwire looked when lying to senate committee? Of course, loss in body mass is just as valid an indicator as a gain in one.

Yes, I have my suspicisions about Mike not because of him personally but because I do about everybody who played during that era. And that is the shame of it all because Mike contributed to help foster that suspicion upon himself as did every player regardless of using it or not because as a group they all kept the fact that steroid use was rampant closed to outsiders.

So if Mike is not named on the hall ballot because of an unfounded suspicion of steroids it’s because he and his fellow union members caused that suspicion to happen by simply being quiet about the whole thing – unless there was an underground movement with their ranks to change it.