15
2013
Nats Bolster Bullpen, Sign Rafael Soriano
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Jeff Passan of Yahoo! Sports reports that free agent reliever Rafael Soriano has agreed to a two-year, $28 million contract with the Washington Nationals.
As a result of the signing, the Nationals will have to surrender the team’s first round pick in the 2013 amateur draft, while the Yankees will receive a compensatory pick sandwiched between the first and second rounds.
Soriano was one of three remaining free agents with draft pick compensation attached. All three of them (Soriano, Kyle Lohse, Michael Bourn) are represented by agent Scott Boras.
Soriano, 33, finished 54 games for the Yankees in 2012 after taking over as the team’s closer on May 10. He went 2-1 with a 2.26 ERA, 1.17 WHIP and 69 strikeouts in 67 2/3 innings while collecting 42 saves. He joins a bullpen that already featured elite relievers such as closer Drew Storen and setup man Tyler Clippard.
According to Passan the two-year, $28 million deal also includes a $14 million option for 2015 that vests if Soriano has 120 games finished in 2013-2014, which would essentially require his being the Nationals’ full-time closer.
I think it’s safe to say that the two best bullpens in baseball are in the NL East; Atlanta Braves and the Washington Nationals.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
113 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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This is great news!!!! They signed soriano but at what cost! they lost their first rounder!!!! (Roll eyes)
Mets bullpen is better than you think. Dont forget we have Francisco and even Jessep admitted today that we have upgraded the bullpen and outfield significantly. You gotta believe.
Yes! Let’s go Sandy Alderson and Let’s go METS!!! Woooohoooo… We got rid of bay, torres was let go and kirk is not a shoe in to be the CF, meaning he was 100% right when he said the OF won’t be the same when the 2013 season begins, so.. I approved his msg.
Thanks for commenting.
interesting. Not sure how many closers one team needs, but entirely possible this is setting up a trade of someone. Or maybe a major overreaction to a few playoff games that did not go well?
Or maybe you forgot the biggest “or”. Or maybe the Nationals are focused on winning and going to the World Series.
no question they are in “win now” mode. still interesting that they would sign another closer when they already have one, if they expect to keep both, since closers are notorious for being territorial about the job.
they are win now node and win later mode…interesting how some teams can pull that off
well, in their case, they stunk for many years, and had a strink of being the worst in MLB, hence getting the #1 pick in the years there happened to be a generational type talent there to be picked. That is what gave them the base to work on.
Cut it out Maniac this is a Mets sight us Mets fans dont bother ourselves with stupid things like winning and World Series.
Whats important is we have prospects and all of our draft picks. But more importantly the Wilpons dont have to spend all that money they receive from the Mets and SNy on free agents.
Silly Maniac is worrying about winning lol thats so 80′s of you
Soriano got more per year than Dickey did.
Don’t know how Boras keeps pulling off these deals.
Who needs Soriano,Clippard and Storen or Kimbrel, Venters, Walden and O’Flaherty when you have
Frank Frank
Parnell
and ??????
and Jessep!
Who’s that? Was he an international signing by Alderson Ive never heard of
Thanks for reading and commenting guys.
You’re right Alex. You and Maniac aren’t obsessed with me at all… just 5 out of the 15 comments here are in some way about me and not about say, Rafael Soriano?
I hope you guys at least do not talk about me in your private life
Thanks for commenting.
The Nats and the Braves might have the best team on the field but what we have is better…..We have 2 Harvard degrees in our GM office.
‘
I wonder if Alderson or DePodesta are members of SKULL & BONES?!?!
o_O
Hey hey leroy, games are not won on papers ok? We still have our draft pick and they just lost theirs. that is huge going forward as we can add another cecchinni to the minors
Thanks for commenting your insight is always appreciated here….
(Comment boost!)
Don’t mention that word/player to Leroy. It’s a touchy issue. LOL
LOL!!!! Everytime I leave my house I feel like HAWKS are swarming over my head
All that money to setup? That’s more than what our entire bullpen, catchers and outfield will make in 2013.
Frank, yeah… Matter of fact, you can probably add at least half of the IF as well… And not to mention, they lost their 1st round pick for this year, and that can pay divident in say what, 4 5 years??
and the pick the yanks gave up in 2011, they got right back in 2013′s draft…
with the mets, u would think signing michael bourn to a 2 year deal would mean we could never offer arbitration and get an extra pick again !!!
how did i get to root alongside such intelligent fans !!!
just curious, but in the next few years, who are they offering a qualifying offer to, in order to get a pick? Johan? Not likely. And other than him, there won’t be anyone.
yup !!!
Yanks lost some young players for Vasquez ( one was supposed to be the next Pedro )
he so far has not panned out…
1 year later, Yanks get a pick for Vasquez ( Dante Bichette Jr. )
In 2009, the yanks trade 2 minor leaguers for Swisher
Nick Swisher in 2008 had the worst batting average among players with at least 502 plate appearances
3 productive low cost years later, Yanks get a pick for Swisher…
Yanks lost a pick for signing Soriano…
2 years later…Yanks get a pick for Soriano…
Mets ?
scared to sign a good player like Bourn for fear of losing a pick !!!
Whatever pick we give up ( in a WEAK DRAFT YEAR ) we would get back either in prospects or a comp pick
scared money dont make none
but in reality, Sandy is just pulling our leg.
you seem to have forgotten the new CBA. offering arbitration to get a pick has gone away. You now have to offer a qualifying offer, which this year was 13mill+. So guys like pedro F no longer get you jack.
so unless you see a FA to be on the Mets that you are willing to pay close to 14mill/year for, they are not getting any comp picks.
Bourn –
1 year deal w/ 1 year player option for 14 mil
offer Bourn a qualifying offer
allow Bourn to test the market and search for a better deal as there will be less outfielders on the market next year than this year
if he doesnt get a deal, than u play the same game in 2014…
either way, he would lock up defense for a year or 2.
Brandon Neemo should be ready to take over by then ….
For where the Nats are right now adding Soriano makes sense. After Rizzo benched Strasburg last season and the Nats not making it to the NLCS he needs to not allow to happen to the Nats what happened to the Mets after 2006 and try his best to get back to the postseason before his window closes.
As far as the Mets go hopefully this season can see the Mets add some in-house options to the pen that can be like some of those our division rivals possess.
their window goes way into the future
Sandy is only about money. We may only win 70 games this year but with our payroll that works out to about a million dollars per win. Such a deal.
Sandy hates spending money, winning, and latino ballplayers. And the Wilpons are powerless to stop this madman….powerless I say. #clowns
Just because Sandy is a hard-core Republican who supported Duncan Hunter and made it his mission to regulate what’s been going in Santo Domingo does not mean he doesnt like latinos
the only color Sandy sees is green
what scares the rocky balboa crowd is stuff like this
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43665383/ns/sports-baseball/
seriously…i think sandy alderson may be tanking our 2013 season on purpose…dwindling fan attendance…forcing the wilpons to sell !!!
why else would he reveal to the public that he was never interested in this job in the first place?
I think behind the scenes, Sandy and Jeffy ( 2 arrogant control freaks ) might be butting heads more than they will let us know.
it really makes no sense for the mets to have NO OF, no upcoming OF prospects in a year where there are several decent OF options…and we make no attempt at signing any of them.
not bourn, upton, hamilton, ross, ludwick, victorino, suzuki, swisher, pagan…
not one
then keeping the same staff that helped produce the 2nd worst bullpen in baseball and one of the worst defenses in baseball.
right now our last and only move we can do is sign Scott Hairston to play RF…
Scott knows he can get 600 AB easily on this team.
the reason he hasnt signed here, is either A – he wants 600 AB on a better team or B – we refuse to offer him a 2 year deal.
because trading Scott Hairston after year one is absolutely impossible !!!
and eating his enormous 4 mil salary he would command is insane !!!
esp on a team with a 50 mil payroll
LOL #Flexibility
Lets not forget that the Nats are a team the commisioners office put on their back and babysat them for 2-3 years while they stripped that horrible Expos moniker off their jersey and found them new life in DC.
How the hell are they finding 14M a season to pay a set-up guy or closer when viable bigger market teams passed on him?
Who would have ever believed 5years ago that that franchise would EVER be able to negotiate with a POS “Boras” client ????
Wheres our bailout commissioner ???!!!???
Oh, I forgot, you already send him to us: Alderson
thanks for nothing….
Nats are contenders
Dodgers get new billionaire ownership
and we get a “lawyer”
This signing shows the difference between a team that is built to win now ( and actually has a good chance of winning going forward) and a team that is rebuilding. Of course, it took the Nats quite some time to build this. And while Strasburg & Harper are a result of being both terrible and lucky, a lot of their talent was acquired via the draft and smart trades. Jordan & Ryan Zimmerman, Danny Espinosa, Ross Detwiler, Drew Storen, Wilson Ramos and trades for Gio Gonzalez or Denard Span, cashing in on a strong farm system.
Signing Soriano would have made ZERO sense for the Mets right now. Even without losing their # 11 overall in the 2013draft.
Just like signing Bourn would make ZERO sense right now.
The Mets right now are at a stage where the Nats were maybe 3 or 4 years ago.
The farm system is much improved. High upside youngsters are about to reach the majors. Once a young core is in place, you start building on it. And then it makes sense to add 2nd tier free agent talent and give up draft picks as finishing touches. Or trade from prospect depth for core major leaguers.
So we should all be honest with ourselves …we are not targeting 2014 or even 2015. We are building for 2016 and beyond
2014 and 2015 could be a feel- good contention season. And thanks to having a clean payroll slate with a projected payroll of barely 60 million $, it won’t be a problem adding a couple of solid veteran outfielders to this mix. The Mets should be back in the steak section…
However, the peak years don’t figure to come until 2016 or 2017, realistically….
the great thing is we can actually PROJECT who is going to be a free-agent next season…and the season after that…
and guess what…
the list does not get larger…it gets SMALLER …
what makes you think coming off years with dwindling fan attendance that the mets will be able to financially compete with the dodgers/yanks/sox/phils/nationals for a players services…
if bourn on a 4 year deal is too much…
u can say the same about ellsbury, who is more injury prone and will command MORE MONEY
or curtis granderson, who will be 34, hitting the market next year..
this is why it was insane to offer DavidDimples that deal when u could trade him ( then take the prospects u just got and trade for a young controllable player in his pre-prime years ( aka a Giovanni Stanton/Justin Upton type player )
The fact that you’re ok with not expecting to compete until 2017 is wild to me. That is a four seasons from now. Goodness gracious.
It is rediculous isn’t it Hank….
By the same thinking proccess none of us are likely to get rich in the next 3 years so might as well go on Welfare and food stamps UNTIL we are ready or think we are ready to get rich in the next year or two….
Only someone who is too young and has the rest of his life ahead of him to accomplish something thinks that way!
“Take a few years off it doesn’t matter…” Until they are 40 and still living at Mom’s House!
The only thing that makes any of this make sense to me is if Sandy is trying to force the Wilpon to sell by the let’s be so horrible they will hightail and sell route. If 2016 or 2017 is our “peak” time to start expecting a winner, signing Wright to that contract makes even less sense, thinking the team is headed in the right direction makes even less sense, and being ok with all of this…is yes, even less sense than all that.
exactly
Even that sort of doesn’t make sense because if he wa trying to force the WIlpons to sell he wouldn’t save them all the money he has and would be spending ever penny he is given to make sure they are forced to spend more than they can afford or attendance can support.
There IS some logic to sucking or not trying once you are ALREADY the worst team in baseball, Then you hoard the high draft picks and once you have a few of them in the system it actually DOES make sense to trade off your few star performers to add to the hoard.
But we didn’t do that either and since we were not the worst team in baseball the FEW kids we got Wheeler and d”Arnaud for Beltran, K-Rod, Reyes, Pagan, and Dickey (sad isn’t it) is not enough to change the competitive chances of this team because we didn’t get enough and none of our draft picks made in the last 2 years is going to be enough to change that!
This is why I challenged all those who point to Cashen as the model here….
Cashen inherited a last place team and already had the first overall pick in the draft to start the ball rolling.
two years plus later he traded his ONLY two stars to add to those drafted kids.
You rebuild when you can’t possibly fall further cause then if you did who would notice?, you were already worst in the league…
Then when you have stockpiled the high picks you can try and supplement by trading your main performers….
What these guys are calling good is really the race to GET to the place where a rebuild is appropriate!
The last three offseasons were the last three years of GRANT (77, 78, and 79) that made Cashen able to rebuild….
So anyone who think we are doing what Cashen did should start thier 5 year clock somtime around October of this year!
phil evans
cecerilli
neemo
( this is what they call whording draft picks ? )
instead of jose fernandez..courtney hawkins…
Hi Hank,
If Sandy was trying to force the Wilpons to sell, all he had to do was to tell Bud Selig not to interfere in the Met situation back in October, 2012 – beginning with the $25 million loan no financial institution was going to lend them.
I’m just wondering if there is a chance by reducing expenses making it possible for the team to meet it’s loans it brings the value of the club back up. Right now I understand it would be below market worth.
Either way, this is not the way any medium or large size market works. I’ve never seen a dismantling precede a rebuilding stage nor have I ever seen a need to just rebuild and not try to win at the same time. I’ve seen mid and big market teams makes mistakes which didn’t help them improve themselves in the standings but with those at least there were attempts.
No, it appears all Sandy is doing is trying to build back the equity. Re-building is just spin to justify getting rid of as many costly players as possible (the only reason David is still here is so not to tank the team’s attendance altogether) and obtaining as many inexpensive prospects and cheap players as one can. There is no other plan – certainly not a baseball one.
Sandy must be looked at for what he is – a corporate executive running a business. We’ve had more than two years to observe, learn and evaluate Sandy and I do not understand how anyone still thinks he was hired for matters related to baseball as a game. All the advanced statistical analysis in the world is not going to change that when one has no professional understanding of the game coming into the business.
Some might not agree with that, but this is an interesting article that appeared in the Times about five years ago regarding the sharp divide.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/sports/baseball/14chass.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
The author notes new, younger, inexperienced and heavily dependent upon statistical analysis just being hired at the time for three teams in particular: Cleveland, Houston and Pittsburgh. Consider what has happened with those teams since.
It is also seemed that the middle ground is being stressed, the usage of the old and the new but it seems many of the newer types of general manager are stuck with having their organizations run by the way they see things in stats. We’ve seen the result of that here in New York.
Joey D.,
A few points-
- had Uncle Bud not provided the $25 nil loan to the Wilpons, they would have ponied up their own cash, just like they did a few months after that when the themselves, or as SNY, bought several of those 4% $20 million shares
- Alderson was clearly brought on board to change the organizational philosophy, and at the same time the ownership incurred a fiscal crisis that required slashing payroll $50 mil to stop the bleeding. This is an ownership environment that would suffocate any GM, not just Alderson
- 2012 was a banner year for the Wilpons. While most of us, including me, would prefer new owners, they managed to settle a $1 billion lawsuit for pennies on the dollar, see MLB expand annual TV revenues by some $20 – $25 mil annually beginning 2014, and see the value of thier holdings increase dramatically based on the sale prices of the Dodgers and 49% of YES. This allowed them to refi the SNY debt and expand their credit from $430 mil to $700 mil, at better interest rates
- they are also lucky that they couldn’t sell most of those 4% shares, as they retained a higher percentage of ownership. These owners have weathered the storm and are not going anywhere
-What is left to fix is to restore the brand, via restoration of fan confidence, which will lead to increased the team revenues, which in turn will lead to even higher payrolls. This will be done by investing in payroll immediately. Not just to burn money, but to address needs and increase the competitiveness of the team right now. While the will not challenge the Nats on paper, nor the Braves, it is absolutely critical to reverse the downward trend, increaase the win total beyond last year’s 74 wins, and move the team closer to the competition immediately. Failure to do so will make it much less likely that they will be competing for championships in 2014 or 2015. If Alderson fails to do this now, before the start of 2013, the fans should and most likely will stay away in large numbers. Do it, Sandy, do it.
Hi TJ,
If it came to the Wilpons using their own money or capital from their other holdings, why did they wait to the point of defaulting on their monthly obligations to do so? And then a second time with that bridge loan that MLB had to back up. Would not that have resolved the cash flow and even credit problem? Metsie has pointed out that as a practice business people do not use their own personal assets in that manner and how it explained it does make sense.
Yes, Sandy re-organized and perhaps has put them on footing where they can now pay their debts and not lose money at the same time. But look at what the organization has come in order for them to stay afloat – not being able to re-invest in players. If you recall that article I attached, it showed all but one team made money in a four year period ending 2010. It was up to the owners whether they wanted to pocked that money or re-invest those earnings for more players.
Other teams seriously trying to re-build themselves do not have a five year plan waiting for prospects to do something. Those that aren’t – the ones who look in terms of their franchise as a business first – and a sports team second – on the other hand, do.
Joey D.,
I agree. The Wilpons would only have used their own money as a last resort, rather than lose the team. But, like most all rich people, they prefer and are able to use and risk other people’s money (thanks Uncle Bud). I also agree that the “rebuilding”, although Alderson denies it, is a misrepresentation. The have money now and need to spend some and fill holes with decent players or better, even if it does not get them to playoff caliber. If they don’t, I can’t see why anyone would pay for a ticket.
HI TJ,
Yes, if there was no uncle Buddy there would be no more Fred and Jeff. Just like in Los Angeles, Texas and before in Montreal. And we would all be better off.
What he did was not in the best interests of baseball but rather in the best interests of the Wilpons. Yes, Fred and Jeff got hit with something that never happened before – being swindled. So if that’s why Selig took such unusual steps – not only out of friendship but because (as he said) the Wilpons were “victims”, then this is what happens if the Wilpons wanted to retain ownership so badly. The business is going to suffer for years, and so will us fans, until things eventually straighten out.
Then they are banking on the fans just coming back since the Mets are not going anywhere and they can wait it out financially. If Kansas City and PIttsburgh can make money with less revenue coming in and as small an operating budget as possible, so could New York.
Joey D. and Metsie,
I’ll see you both in 2017.
LOL Hank….
Hey maybe by the time these guys finish rebuilding this team…
If we barrel up some Sotch today we could celebrate with some 35 year old scotch when they finally get around to winning! LOL
Hi Hank,
You’re really that optomistic?
Dooby I challenge you to name the OFer(s) you think you will be able to buy next year…
Metsie,
I´ll gladly take up that challenge.
Before I mention names, let´s start with a few opening points:
First of all, one benefit of the current 40-man roster is that it´s young & under team control longterm. Three of the lone four players over age 30 (FF, Buck and Santana) are free agents after 2013 (clearing 40+ million in salaries) with Wright – who barely turned 30 last month – being the lone remaining veteran. Plus, there are several other youngish options on their way in the minors, thus creating alternatives in how to fill positions for 2014 and going forward.
And while the Mets may not have a sufficient number of starting caliber position players, they may well have a sufficient number of backups and depth going forward even among hitters.
As a 2nd key part, for now, the 2014 payroll – even including arbitration raises and deferred Jayson Bay money – projects to be in the 60 million $ range. So, even with a mere 2014 budget of 95 million $ which is still far below what you´d expect a NY based MLB franchise to spend on players (even if managed prudently, you´d expect a payroll in the 110 to 130 million $ range), you´d have about 35 million $ to spend on players. And unlike a couple of years ago, realistically you only have a few spots to fill, namely the 5th starter, a closer and two fulltime outfield spots.
And there´s a realistic chance that among Mejia, Familia, McHugh, Gorski & Co., you may not even need the veteran 5th starter or closer from the outside.
Still, even being conservative, you have 35 million $ to spend on 3 to 4 players, i.e. 8 to 9 million $ on average.
We agree, the OF is the main trouble area.
Let´s assume / hope that among Nieuwenhuis / Duda / Valdespin / Baxter / Den Dekker vs. RH and Cowgill / Lagares / Brown vs. LH, you have at least one workable platoon you return for 2014, batting 7th or 8th. That´s a conservative plan, too as the upside is that two of these youngish combos or players establish themselves as solid regulars in 2013. Still, let´s be pessimistic and expect only one OF spot to be filled going forward.
Now, there are several interesting free agents for 2014:
Carlos Gomez, Chris Young jr. (unless an 11 million $ option is picked up), Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury, Shin Soo Choo, Corey Hart, Nelson Cruz, David Murphy, Jason Kubel (unless an 8 million $ option is picked up) and Hunter Pence. Just to name a few.
Just being totally non-creative and hesitant to part with any of our further advanced young pitching prospects, let´s sign your choice of Corey Hart, Hunter Pence or Nelson Cruz to a 3-year, 30.0 million $ contract (probably compensation free as none figures to get a “qualifying” offer) to provide some RHH power. A pretty steep price – but the money is there.
And then go a bit bolder and sign Jacoby Ellsbury or Shin Soo Choo or Curtis Granderson to a 5-year, 80 million $ type contract which seems like a realistic proposition as of today, considering what Upton, Pagan, Victorino and Hamilton have received this winter.
Total money spent annually: 26 million $ even without deferring or backloading any money…
Your 2014 lineup:
1) Ellsbury or Granderson or Choo, of
2) Tejada, ss
3) Wright, 3b
4) Davis, 1b
5) Hart or Cruz or Pence, of
6) Murphy, 2b
7) D´Arnaud, c
8) Nieuwenhuis or Den Dekker and Cowgill or Lagares platoon, of
Bench:
Centeno / Recker, c
Turner, if
Baxter or Valdespin, of
Cowgill or Lagares, of (see above)
another backup infielder such as Hicks, Havens, Lutz, Quintanilla or Tovar
That looks like a pretty interesting lineup to me. 4 lefties and 4 righties.
And you still have 10 million or so to spend on the 5th starter or closer.
And you still have every prospect you have today – just another year more advanced and possibly worth something in trades.
Instead of signing the Hart / Cruz / Pence group, you may also target a veteran OF close to the end of his contract in a trade btw. Josh Willingham or Michael Cuddyer come to mind for example who both will be free agents after 2014 and play for teams that aren´t locks to contend in 2014.
You could also adress the higher profile OF part in a trade. Besides dreaming of Giancarlo Stanton or Justin Upton, more realistic targets without having to gut your system beyond control could include Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gonzalez, Andre Ethier or Yoenis Cespedes for example.
And a year from now, arms like Michael Fulmer, Domingo Tapia, Luis Mateo, Rafael Montero or Noah Syndergaard may have reached Double A and be worth significantly more in a trade than they already are. And depending on how good Harvey, Wheeler, Mejia, Familia & Co. are, you may be a lot more open minded trading some of that next wave of promising young pitching. Let alone other arms taking a step forward in 2013 – be it at the upper levels (DeGrom, Mazzoni, Verrett, etc.) or lower levels (Matz, Diaz, Robles, Ynoa, etc.).
On a final note, obviously, if the Mets stick to the “no contract beyond 1 year of 5 million $ per year” policy of this and of the past couple of winters, then this won´t be possible. You might as well forget about building an all homegrown / young / inexpensive outfield here for the next 3+ years.
But besides saving the franchise for the Wilpons (unfortunately), part of the entire plan was to be very flexible by next winter and be able to get any sort of player that fits. For all of us that believe that the time isn´t right to spend yet, 2014 was always “The” year to start spending again. There will be lots of options – be it in trades or free agency. But they will cost money or prospects or both. If the Mets aren´t willing to give up either, 2014 contention won´t happen in all likelihood. But first, the talent base needs to be there. If Harvey, Wheeler and others flop like “Generation K”, you may delay those plans until 2015 or 2016 and hope for Syndergaard, Fulmer, Tapia, Montero and others to do better. The good part is, from next winter on, all decisions can be made with mainly “talent” in mind instead of managing “finances” too…
Nice job. Always very impressed with how well you express yourself.
Well thought out but does rely on a few debated assumptions. One being that we have 2nd base and short filled going forward. still a lot toprove there especially at short. Rotation still only boasts one proven starter – Niese. Harvey will have to progress and Wheeler will have to fulfill the incedible hype. But assuming the the three of them perform, we still need two more starters. Lastly, no gaurantee any of those guy s sign with us as many may pay more for their services
Of course there are no guarantees. Also, I view 2B as much more of a problem than SS. As long as Ruben plays great defense and hits more than his weight, his offense isn’t an issue to me.
I liked the strides Murphy made in 2012.
He was – 11 runs defensively already by late June – and pretty much stayed there until the end of the season. Offensively, I expect him to be above average for a 2bman.
And Valdespin, Havens and Flores seem like pretty decent hedges in the system.
One of these 4 should be at least a solid average 2bman in 2014.
Your 2014 lineup:
1) Ellsbury or Granderson or Choo, of
2) Tejada, ss
3) Wright, 3b
4) Davis, 1b
5) Hart or Cruz or Pence, of
6) Murphy, 2b
7) D´Arnaud, c
8) Nieuwenhuis or Den Dekker and Cowgill or Lagares platoon, of
Appearantely, you haven’t been paying attention… I feel for guys like you who still somehow got hope on this FO making moves especially like that magnitude
Well, so far, the downsizing has made sense to have the clear payroll slate and then start adding onto the young core built in the meantime.
By the end of 2013, Wheeler and D´Arnaud should be fulltime major leaguers.
Mejia, Familia, McHugh, Valdespin and others too.
So it´ll either be sink or swim.
If this team is going to contend in 2014 and 2015, you´ll need to add from the outside.
And you won´t get the needed complementary talent without either trading away prospects or signing expensive free agents or doing both.
Cheap options are alright during rebuilding. Why waste 4 million on Scott Hairston when Andrew Brown may be capable of similar production for 0,4 million ?
However, neither Hairston nor Brown should be a starting OF for a contender. So, once you believe you have the framework for a contender, you better start investing.
Unless you get extremely lucky, you won´t be able to build an all homegrown 90+ win team.
And looking at the Mets system, even that best-case scenario won´t happen until 2016, when maybe Brandon Nimmo, Vincente Lupo, Cesar Puello and others could be in an all “homegrown” outfield.
If the target year is 2016 or 2017, then extending Wright and even keeping Niese, Ike Davis, Bobby Parnell and Daniel Murphy around right now, doesn´t make too much sense.
If 2014 and 2015 are target seasons to contend, it very much does.
Again, impressed with your ability to explain things.
Dooby name the young core that has been BUILT to add to….
Careful because if your list contains more than two names your redefining BUILT to be something used that was already here…..and already BUILT!
The core is BEING built right now. Since it’s not there yet, it makes no sense to add significant complementary pieces now. Adding just cheap no- name guys so far this winter is a bit arrogant towards the casual fan but makes a ton of sense with the bigger picture in mind.
For now, the core is merely Wright, Niese and if you’re generous Ike Davis.
Matt Harvey is closing in – and he’ll hopefully be joined by Zach Wheeler and Travis D’Arnaud shortly. That combined with a low payroll and a deep farm system, plus several solid complementary pieces ( Gee, Parnell, Tejada, Murphy, maybe Nieuwenhuis, Familia or Mejia eventually) is a very promising situation to build on.
Will it work out ? Who knows. There are obiously no guarantees and a bunch of things can go wrong – like labrums popping instead of 95 mph fastballs.
But the general idea is pretty sound.
And so far, except for failing to maximize the value of Jose Reyes by either trading or keeping him, not a single move over the past two years has had any sort of meaningful negative impact on that plan. The number of cheap “hidden gems” picked up from the waiver wire has been quite low so far. Though after going for mediocre veteran plugins with limited upside over the past couple of years, the front office has finally started picking up the types of younger players this winter ( Burke, Cowgill or Brown) I expected to see more of earlier. It’s certainly more creative than signing Jon Rauch, Ronnie Paulino or Ronnie Cedeno.
ALL those names you mentioned were already built before Sandy got here!
All he has added in 3 years is Wheeler and d’Arnaud and it cost him an All Star and Cy Young Pitcher!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever it is you think they add is certain not as much as they cost to get!
Sorry Dooby there is no core being BUILT it was already here….
You can say he added to the core that was here but he sure didn’t build it and he certainly isn’t doing anything to help it by signing the other scrubs he has while waiting for Wheeler and d’Arnauds clock to start.
He’s not PREPARING this team to be ready to INFUSE/INCORPORATE a new young core…
Most of it is already here, already has thier CONTROL clock ticking off and will have most of the control you covet WASTED while we play AAAA players around them.
SO there is no point in having a core when your going to waste all thier early years over a MONEY PHOBIA!
The only thing this core will bring us is MORE trades of THE CORE to get even MORE kids we will wait on before spending around them because they will be the names of guys who “We Can’t Win WITH so should trade to build the NEXT CORE we won’t build around and waste it’s team control of.
Hi DrD,
My first response about the core was who brought it down to that level to begin with? Why do we have three holes in the outfield instead of no more than 1/2 (Hairston being platooned, possibly resolved with Duda coming back)? Why have no speed at the top of the lineup? Why now have a bullpen without a closer? Why no Cy Young award winner? Why no bench strength?
Many have argued that the Mets would have needed a $160 million payroll to compete in 2012. I don’t think so. Let’s do a little math with the understanding these are more estimated numbers and could vary one way or the other but not so far as to not be accurate enough for our purposes.
If they signed Jose to $18 million a year, Beltran for $14 million ($1 million more than St. Louis), kept KRod at his $12.3 million, hung onto Pagan, the payroll would have remained in the range of just under $140 million (added to the $93 million which includes the $6 million for our other Francisco, Rauch, other minor free agent signings plus the contractual raises for Wright, Santana and the others).
In actual costs, that’s an extra $47 million, however, we must also look at total expenses and not just that of payroll. Notice that the 2011 roster payroll (search through the attached) does not include money owed Perez and Castillo. So in terms of actual player expenses, that $47 million would have really only been $29 million because those two ($18.2 million combined) were off the books. That $29 million could have been made up an approximate addition of drawing 120,034 more fans (1,486 per game) based on the estimated $241 spent by fan per game in 2011 (I attached an article several weeks ago breaking down the average cost per fan going to a game- the Mets were the fifth most expensive in 2011).
It would be a good bet that the Mets would have played much better that first half and continued to do so with the roster being what it could have been, resulting in more fans coming with the team in a playoff hunt instead of feeling betrayed by many by the team being dismantled (there had to be at least 120,000 in the tri state area who felt strong enough to have stayed away LOL). So why didn’t Sandy go this route? My only hunch is that Sandy did not want to risk counting on those additional 120,034 fans to bring in $29 million more in revenue when not paying iit guaranteed $29 million less in expenditures.
So how would the 2012 team have looked like? In alphabetical order:
Outfielders: Bay, Beltran, Duda, Hairston, Pagan; Reserve: Baxter.
Infields: Davis, Murphy, Reyes, Wright ; Reserves: Polino, Tejada, Turner,
Catcher (weak link): Thole, Nickeus
Starters: Dickey, Gee, Harvey, Niese, Santana
Relievers: Byrdak, Francisco, Parnell, Rauch, Rodriguez
And all we would have not to show for our “rebuilding” efforts was Zack Wheeler and nothing more. Our farm system would have remained in tact and with Santana, Beltran and KRod moving on after 2012 those kids coming up this season (sans Wheeler) would still be doing so. We have no idea what would have resulted from the better success of the last two seasons as far as better player moves as well.
http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2008/05/Issue-162/Leagues-Governing-Bodies/MLB-Teams-Insure-Long-Term-Deals-To-Protect-From-Player-Injury.aspx
Joey D.,
yes, keeping all those players around would have made the Mets a lot more competitive over the past two seasons. Reyes + Beltran + KRod ( on a restructured contract instead of the 17.5 million vesting option, say, 3-years, 33 million instead) + Pagan for about 45 to 50 million $ combined in 2012 is a valid projection. Add it to the roughly 90 million $ for other players and you get to about 135 or so million for that team in 2012.
And instead of 74 wins, that team probably wins 85 games in 2012 if all goes well, maybe even up to 88 with good luck and challenges the Cardinals for the 2nd Wild Card. Would it have been enough to win it ? World enough fans have shown up to cover the extra operating expenses ? And what about 2013 with Pagan leaving as a free agent ? Yet an extra 10 million $ in costs for Santana and Bay plus raises in arbitration for Ike, Murph and others ? You enter this off season with at least 140 million in obligations for 2013 and have lost Pagan ( or kept him to be at 150 million with the same team returning, albeit a year older, still without a catcher and still with iffy middle relief and no guarantee to top 85 wins – albeit it very high costs.
Do you keep Dickey around in that scenario ? If so, no D’ Arnaud, no Wheeler and no Syndergaard going forward.
After 2013 you clear a ton of payroll space by losing Santana, Bay, Beltran and KRod and get back to the 100 million or so range even including RA’s much deserved extension. Still, thebullpen and C issues remain the same, you have to fill a hole in the rotation and in RF and CF ( if you didn’t keep Pagan).
Sure, it’s a valid alternative scenatio that’s a lot more interesting ( and costly) in the shortterm but seems questionable in the long term without any guarantee to reach 90 wins again…
Hi DrD.,
Of course we are both speaking in generalities but as far as the payroll, it would only be Pagan whose salary would have affected payroll for this season. Wright and Dickey would not kick in until 2014 and at that time, Santana’s contract is over. So it would have meant an additional $10 million this season.
But we must remember that for any other team but the Mets it’s not a matter of not having the money, it’s a matter of whether the owners want to spend some of it or pocket as much as they could. We cannot look at payroll as a separate entity but part of the financial whole. It’s no different that if the Mets invested $25 million more on non-roster personnel. Financially, pocketing the money might not reap as much profit as re-investing in the team but it is then a guarantee of at least a certain amount of profits should the revenue not come through as hoped otherwise.
Sandy is not taking that gamble, financially, for whatever projected reasons only he and the Wilpons have privy to. His actions (forget about the statements) show that he has not only not spent but has also taken extreme measures to cut back and thus save – and that is throughout the organization, not just the roster (ten percent cut back last season, the elimination of an executive VP position last month and who knows what else privately).
We would be in much better shape in the field if circumstances hadn’t been so serious for the Mets financially. Certainly, the team could have remained competitive without sacrificing the future for I cannot believe that the future of the team is dependent so much on the shoulders of a Wheeler. We would have also acquired something better than “inexpensive” players as Sandy admitted he did for a purpose other than to field a competitive team (remember he said one can’t expect to win with those type of players who could only produce fifty percent). And had the moves been different, we would not even be talking about d’Arnaud.
Doesn’t mean a guarantee of October baseball – only the competitive integrity to attempt it. The players weren’t the only ones kicked in the teeth – the fans were too – for isn’t competitive integrity the reason why we buy tickets (if we could afford to) – and the reason why so many aren’t (even if they could afford to)? Re-building comes from not having a core of good players to begin with. That is dis-mantling and salary dumping that has nothing related to competitive integrity.
That the Wilpons were victims of a scandal that forced this upon them nobody disagrees. It’s the contention that what happened with the Mets beginning in November, 2010 had something to do with putting together a winning organization and that the measures taken were wise ones regardless of the owners being named Wilpon or Steinbrenner.
I’ll take these one by one….
“one benefit of the current 40-man roster is that it´s young & under team control longterm”
That cuts both ways you own them long term but do you really want them there long term?
You can own a junker outright but that doesn’t make it more valuable to have than a new car. Young and Under control is only relevant if the guys your talking about are good enough to want to keep long term.
You saw the debate yesterday on locking up Ike….
Tejada looked good but only because many WANTED to focus on the BA to justify letting Reyes go and if the rest of the team was playoff ready those slap singles would become an issue for them…
No one seems to think Murphy is a great 2B despite the MLB Network Shredder saying he was #10 in the league (see that recent debate as well)
And d’Arnaud is unproven in the MLB and he already has the two worst injuries a catcher could have, Bad back (discs) and Bad Knee….
Harvey had a good 2nd half of the season…Keep your fingers crossed there…
Wheeler is still unproven in the MLB….
Gee is coming off surgery, he should be fine but if he’s not does it matter if we own him long term?
Having players locked up long term and under control is really only important when your sure you WANT them long term and thier performance makes controlling them worth something!
RE: Payroll – Any discussion of Payroll is just excuse making and rooting for the owner not the team winning. There is no benefit to building a team with a 100 mil payroll over building one with a 150Mil payroll or more (until you hit the luxury tax) And I know you all think well we will put all that money in the bank and spend it all next year but as you list shows there isn’t much there worth having aside from maybe Granderson.
Carlos Gomez- a career .247 hitter!
Chris Young jr – a Craeer .239 hitter! (and he costs 10 Mil+?)
Jacoby Ellsbury – Who aside from his 2011 Anomoly (can you say PEDS?) is 28 and not very good just a slap singles hitter…
From your list I don’t see anyone who makes next year a championship ready team other than granderson….And none that would have done any better than the guys who were available this year.
And to think that any of the guys you like is going to sign for 10Mil per when the seeming average for a decent OFer is atabout 13 Mil per I don’t see where your getting any of them at the price you suggest.
I think your just doing the same thing with 2014 FAs that many of you are doing with the Kids Hyping and Hoping….
Sure, a 150 million $ payroll would be nicer than a 100 million $ payroll. And I’m actually convinced it’ll be in that range again 5 years from now. However, part of the rebuilding is aligning the payroll with the quality of the roster again. Instead of an 80 win team for 145 million, I’d rather watch a 75 win team for 75 million in a bridge year if it means there’s a good chance it’ll turn into an 85 win team at 100 million in due time and then get to 95 win level at 150 million eventually.
Soriano, no..
but Bourn?
Hell to the YES !
right now, if we offered Bourn a 4 year 50 mil deal…and by February 15th, no other club matched it….we get a top of the order hitter and a great defensive CF for a decent price
right now our payroll is 69 mil…
adding just 16 mil more would = having an OF of
Duda – Bourn – Hairston
with depth in Kirk/Spin/Baxter
as opposed to
Duda – Kirk – Spin/Baxter
with depth = Cowgil – …..I have no clue who else we have :-/
having a payroll of 85 mil ….with 20-25 mil coming off next year …
our 2014 payroll WITH Bourn AND Hairston would be 60-65 mil
You have to be kidding me if u think that is too much
JDD,
I’m with you on Bourn at the right price, but what chance to you think Spin has of becoming the CF/leadoff hitter? I know it is a risk, given his OBP issues, but putting aside the personal stuff and focusing with just on the field capabilities, do you he has a shot at filling this tremedous need?
I would say Spin has about 0-10% chance of even ever being a starter for any MLB team and about 0-1% chance of sticking in CF and leadoff. I hope I am wrong but…
hmmmm…
i did see a change in his approach towards the end of the season…he looks like he is a quick learner…
he attempted 11 bunts for base-hits last year…successful on 3…
the thing is….he is not going to be ricky henderson on day one…but give him a Carlos Beltran or Cliff Floyd or a Julio Franco on the team…someone who takes the younger kids ( not just the ones that look like him ) and mentors him, Jordany would be just fine…
in NY…on the Mets…with THIS squad…with a manager that doesnt appear to even like him…
Jordany Valdespin is going to have to be PERFECT in every sense of the word…
not likely he gets a chance to flourish here…
I don’t see why people are saying he got too much money or even suggest he is a setup guy considering how well he did as their closer last year…..
And The Nats traded away a very late 1st rounder to get him which is not a whole lot considering the fact they would have to wait 3-4 years and still no guarantee the player they take is worth having….
I also don’t see why anyone would question the Nats need for another guy who can close (or setup) but I guess people forget that back in 86 with all the starting pitching we had we had two guys who could be the closer when needed allowing us to keep Orosco rested and pitching McDowell and on days when both were available have a solid one two punch in the 8th and 9th Innings.
Smart move to protect all that Starting Pitching they have in the 8th and 9th.
For the price of a measly late 1st rounder…and some MONEY which they will have no problems paying because they just IMPROVED a team that was already playoff caliber.
This is why it doesn’t pay to start trading the farm for Upton. The Mets couldn’t compete with the Nats….they are built to win big time.
Hopefully, this’ll quite down those who say Alderson isn’t doing the right thing by holding into the prospects. He realizes how far away they actually are and giving up pieces now would just be pointless.
It’s not about teams asking too much, it’s about making moves that will help considering the situation the mets are currently in. Which right now, is a holding pattern until more money comes off the books and the system goes through another year of development.
By this time next season, the Mets rotation will be fortified. All infield spots filled with legit players. They’ll be a ton of money to spend. And guys like Syndergaard, Fulmer, Montero, and DeGrom hopefully will all be close enough to the bigs that teams will be willing to see them as center pieces to deals as opposed to secondary pieces. Same too, goes to Flores.
This is just the reality of where the Mets are due to having owners that can’t fund the team like a NY franchise should be easily able to. Today’s market for even so/so players would eat up the 20 million or so the Mets do have to spend this off season and the team would be only marginally better.
“All infield spots filled with legit players.”
Pray tell….So who is going to be there next year that isn’t starting this year?
“They’ll be a ton of money to spend.”
And no one to spend it on….as all the decent OFs were signed this year!
Hello Jason Bay!
Thats how we got him isn’t it?
Why don’t you tell us which two or three OFers will be available for purchase next year…..
Am I the only one who finds this to be a tad odd by Washington?
You sign a guy to be your closer at 33 years old… when you had Drew Storen at 25 years old with 43 saves in 2011 and Tyler Clippard with 32 saves in 2012 due to Storen’s injury
Why the need for a 3rd closer? Why demote both Storen and Clippard?
I mean I get the idea of getting the most talent possible but I think anybody who follows NY sports knows Soriano is kind of a baby when it comes to the closer role (see Yanks 2011)
So was getting him worth demoting both Storen and Clippard?
I don’t see how. I find the move excessive and I think the people who scoff and act like them giving up their 1st rounder is no big deal… Soriano doesn’t change anything for the Nationals. He doesn’t make them better he doesn’t make them worse. They had 2 young and capable closers. So basically they traded their 1st round pick for an older closer that isn’t better than what they had?
The only thing I can think of is that Davey plans on splitting up the closer duties between Storen and Soriano. Personally, I think they should have focused their efforts on a LHP moreso than a 2nd or even 3rd closer. Zach Duke is their only lefty in the pen to my knowledge and he is questionable.
I would prefer Storen over Soriano to be honest
I’m thinking more something like their version of the Reds “Nasty Boys”.
I guess my response to that is… why?
If we can look at this logically… their 2012 bullpen consisted of Clippard, Stammen, Mattheus, Burnett, Gorzellany, Rodriguez, Gonzalez and then Storen.
Of that group…they lost their solid lefty on Gonzalez and replaced him with? Zach Duke. And they lost a middle reliever in Burnett.
Clippard, Stammen, Mattheus, Rodriguez and Storen are back. So basically you’re way of replacing a middle reliever is to… get another closer? Why?
Is there anybody in Washington that thinks Zach Duke will be as good as Gonzalez was? I don’t see how they could.
We hear all the time how important a LHP is in the NL East right? So the Nats have a significant weakness in that spot but we ignore it because they got another closer?
That’s their weakness. Their weakness wasn’t the 8th or 9th inning. So what if Storen had a rough playoff series, it happens. He’s 25 and have ya seen Soriano in the playoffs? The 2010 postseason wasn’t exactly a gem.
I just don’t get why people act like this was a brilliant move. It seems to me like a move for the sake of making a move. You wanna downplay a 1st rounder, that’s fine – you never know what will happen with a pick…. but to lose it to fill a spot you already have filled? I don’t see how that makes sense
I guess the answer your seeking can only come from the man who signed Soriano, Mike Rizzo. I’m sure he will address it sometime in the near future.
Soriano dominates lefties ……221 batting average against last year and .234 batting average against career.
Tyler Clippard even better agaianst lefties …..170 batting average against last year and .186 batting average against lifetime. Much better against lefties than righties. has a pretty good change up.
they don’t need a lefty specialist and Soriano is a dominant closer. Storen is still young and has had injury issues. Clippard is among the best set-up men in baseball and thats where he should be.
The Lerners are billionaires and want to bring a winning product to their fans.
But jon if they are saying (which as of now they are) that Soriano is their closer, then he’s a 9th inning guy, not a lefty specialist (that throws righty).
If you are gonna waste an arm like Clippard on LHB I don’t think that makes much sense either. Make no mistake, I don’t think Soriano is bad – I just don’t think they needed him and I think they have enough solid Righty relievers, they don’t have a lefty one right now
Jessep, here is a Washington Post writer’s take on the signing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/in-rafael-soriano-signing-washington-nationals-go-all-in/2013/01/15/0a706718-5f68-11e2-a389-ee565c81c565_story_1.html
They don’t need a lefty
Stamen and and Matthews are also very good vs left handed hitters
When your best relievers can get hitters on both sides of the plate out you dont need specialists.
Clipboard sets up in the 7th and storen the eigth and soriano no shuts it down.
It is also not a waste when you can afford it.
Yea see I disagree I’m sorry.
They won’t win any more games because they have Soriano. If you give away a 1st rounder and add payroll and you can’t say your team got better – then why bother?
There was nothing wrong with their bullpen before. All they did was demote their 2 younger and better mind you relievers for an older reliever. I don’t see the value in that. I get that the more arms the better, but all they did was spread their bullpen thin and take the ball out of the hands of other capable relievers
so let me get this straight…
you think adding a guy who just came off a year where he saved 42 out of 46 games…in the AL EAST….in a hitters paradise….under heavy pressure ….and was willing to set up before he became the closer..is not a good thing…
“There was nothing wrong with their bullpen before”
so being pro-active is now a bad thing !
“I saw enough from Soriano in 2011 to know that if for some reason he has to go to the 8th inning that this can blow up on them”
I think the Nats owner wants a ring …storen ( the future closer ) is 25. he’ll get over it….
at the end of the day flags fly forever
wow…you are really are a champion for mediocrity
Yeah sorry I think Soriano I don’t see value in adding a 33 year old closer when you already have two closers age 25 and 27. And I’m not sure where you got the idea that Soriano is willing to set up. He was a baby about it in NYY in 2011 when it actually happened.
I’m not suggesting he’s a bad reliever, I’m suggesting they didn’t need him and throwing away a pick for a player you do not need is silly. I could understand if they gave up the pick for something they need but now all they did was set Storen back. They aren’t letting him develop as a closer they are pushing him to the side for an older closer. Storen becomes collateral damage here because the team just essentially said they do not trust him.
Did they need Soriano to win a WS? The answer is no.
That’s all I’m saying… they didn’t need him, and it pushes somebody out which isn’t always a good idea
So it’s really about the age for you isn’t it?
If the two guys he was replacing was the same age you could understand it.
Right…Soriano was a baby about setting up for Mariano Rivera…i am sure he signed with the yankees with the full intention of not winning a title…but of winning a title and putting the greatest closer in MLB on the bench !!!!
What Soriano was peeved about was his GM telling the whole world that he was FORCED to sign him by ownership and it wasnt his call !!!
If Soriano was that big of a baby…why did he execute his PLAYER OPTION ?
At the end of the day, Washington is doing exactly what NY should’ve done in 2006…
instead of acting on best-case scenario’s and crossing your fingers that everyone stays healthy, they prepare for the worst…
Tyler Clippard was shaky as a closer
Storen had chips in his elbow
Why bank your season on everything going right with 2 shaky but good players when you can sign a top closer and have….real DEPTH in case !!!
like i said, you are a champion for mediocrity
Clippard has proven a average closer so far but a phenomenal set up man. Faded big time down the stretch last year. amybe some day he becomes a lock down closer. Storen has big injury concerns and has only made it thru one full season. Soriano is one of the best closers in the game and proved it in the AL east with two different teams. Actually made the Yanks forget about Mo for a year. Talk a bout pressure. It is exactly who the Nats need.
And why do you care about what he costs so much. You have to pay for quality sometimes. Washington is a growing market for baseball and they are owned by a billionaire. A real billionaire…not a madoff one
Storen had a bone chip in his elbow. I don’t know if that is a chronic injury… I wouldn’t call him a major injury concern.
And again, I don’t care what Soriano costs. If they didn’t have a closer I’d say good move. But they do. A 25 year old who had a crushing game 5 and they stand by him by demoting him with Soriano. I am just saying the damage done to Storen may negate any good Soriano brings to the table.
certainly possible but i think it is worth the risk. As always players have to perform.
I agree Jessep. Especially when they could have gotten somebody only slightly worse for ten times less money.
Something I just came across regarding the signing.
@JimBowdenESPNxm
Nats deal with Rafael Soriano is $7m in 2013, $7m in 2014 and the other $14m is deferred starting in 2018…the aav of deal is approx $11.8m
https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/291319377020723200
I actually think this is a good move for the Nats. They added a lockdown closer to an already league best bullpen. This allows them to continue to keep short leashes on Strasburg and Zimmerman. They can turn their starts into 6 inning games without stressing out the arms of Clippard and Storen. Or they could trade one of Storen or clippard with Morsenbut I don’t think they will. I think they did this move with Strasburgs health in mind. Barring injuries they’ll win 100-106 games this year.
See I don’t get that. Why trade any of the 2 better and younger relievers just to have Soriano?
I’d rather have Clippard and Storen than Soriano. I saw enough from Soriano in 2011 to know that if for some reason he has to go to the 8th inning that this can blow up on them
Eh, there’s no reason to trade any of the BP pitchers. Trade Morse for a LOOGY and prospects and go win.
I wouldn’t but that might be what they’re thinking. Personally I would go to war with that bullpen as is except try to add another or better LOOGY than Duke.
“I’d rather have Clippard and Storen than Soriano.”
I’d rather have Cilppard, Storen AND Soriano than just Clippard and Storen.
Nats are better now, only an idiot would think otherwise.. Somehow losing a first rounder who might not even make it to the majors is a big deal. It’s amazing how anyone can’t see why they did this, Did anybody remember the last playoffs game the nationals played??? as good as their bullpen was last year this year is even better, but if you’re an idiot who don’t know about baseball you’d think this is not a fgood move. of course, thinking the mets not having the same OF as last year is an upgrade for this year too.
SMH
Oh it’s a great win now move and I think it’s a perfect move for them. No at this point they should not be worrying about losing the 35th pick or whatever they have. Obviously their situation and the Mets right now is 100% different.
I think what you’re either missing or ignoring with regards to my point is that I think this move sets Storen and Clippard back. I see them as collateral damage. They have a very capable 25 year old closer who could become one of the best closers in the game and they just replaced him with a 33 year old closer who is good don’t get me wrong, but he’s no better than Storen.
Now Storen moves to the 8th inning role and I don’t know what you think about closers but they usually do not enjoy being demoted. This moves impacts Storen’s development in the major leagues and to me when you do that by making a move you really didn’t NEED to make – there’s more bad than good done.
Remember the young Storen had a crushing defeat in Game 5. Closer mentality has to be a short term memory but how did the Nats support him? By demoting him.
It doesn’t set them back, come on. They can’t worry about setting those guys back, they have a window of right now. This is a great move, you can’t think like they are in the Mets situation or even a slightly more competitive team. They are built to win NOW. Any hole, fix it. If the Mets had done it this way when they were blowing all that money in 2006-2008 maybe we would have a WS instead of spending and spending but then still leaving holes.
TRS – Is Storen as good as Soriano? The answer is yes. There’s no significant difference between them. All this does is tell Storen his team lost faith in him after Game 5 of the LDS, and a young player with 0 confidence is a problem. This was a move for the sake of making a move.
There most certainly IS a big difference between the two….
Storen played 37 games last year Soriano had more (42) Saves than Storen had Game Appearances!
SO much for the younger guy being better to have because older guys are injury risks….
Keep in mind the philosophy of the Nats FO….
This is a team who shut down thier best pitcher while they were still in a playoff race!
They seemingly are very CAUTIOUS (same say overly) about the amount of workload thier pitchers get especially when coming off an injury or surgery.
Since Storen was hurt they sure are not expecting him to go and be effective for an entire season. They can lower his workload and deal with who becomes the closer between the two next year when Soriano is in the final year of his contract!
So not only was it a smart move it was a smart DEAL as well…Sure they give away some money…Money that will easily be made by ensuring they stay in the playoffs and repeat this year…
And it expires after storen has the benefit of a season of coming off injury to build up arm strength and get sorted and one year at full strength to win back his job making Soriano expendable, tradeable and likely to get back the LATE first rounder they lost to get him!
I think you’re comparing a tommy john situation to bone fragments on his elbow and I think that is not a valid comparison. He had minor surgery.
What diference does it make what kind of surgery he had…He MISSED games!
Soriano had more saves than Storen had game appearances….
What happened to the guy who said reyes wasn’t worth having because he missed all of about 30 games a season and is now apparently has been replaced by a guy who thinks 30 games in a season makes you the best closer that doesn’t need iprovement or help?
Storen’s Game 5 could have happened to anybody. But he’s a young player and felt devastation for the first time. Read this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/drew-storen-pained-by-washington-nationals-loss-to-st-louis-cardinals/2012/10/13/93e416be-152d-11e2-ba83-a7a396e6b2a7_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop
And how does his team respond? Not by saying we have confidence in you, gotta lose before you know how to win… no – they sign 33 yr old free agent Soriano to replace him.
Everybody is acting like the names on paper are all that matter for the Nats but 1 of those bullpen arms is mentally damaged and his team just added to it rather than trying to instill confidence
Hi Jessep,
I agree with you on that. On a club so good as Washington, one needs to shore up their weak points rather than adding to strength. And even more important, it is not in their best interests to harbor that resentment that is sure going to be felt by both Storen and Clifford. At this point, it will be a battle between the two of them to see who will emerge as closer. But that is not the same as being demoted. Anyone who remembers Sparky Lyle being demoted from the closer after winning the Cy Young award (just so Steinbrenner could get a bigger star in Gossage) will understand the point we are getting at..
To Follow up the Nats Rizzo trades Morse to Seattle.
Nationals trade Michael Morse for A.J. Cole in three-team deal.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2013/01/16/nationals-trade-michael-morse-for-a-j-cole-in-three-team-deal/
Hey Dr.Dooby, nice job on your first MMO article the other day! I don’t think many made the connection that it was you. Maybe we should mention it in your bio?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/01/the-5-%c2%bd-man-rotation-a-healthier-and-winning-formula-for-future-mets-teams.html