28
2013
Nats and Braves Are In The Dynasty Building Business
An article by 
In discussing the impact that the Braves acquisition of Justin Upton will have on the Mets, Anthony DiComo of MLB.com writes:
“It makes for a particularly tricky situation in Flushing, where the Mets are concentrating on a long-term plan built around Wheeler, Harvey, Travis d’Arnaud and the rest of their vastly improved farm system. Tricky because the Nationals and Braves, perhaps already the two best teams in the division, are also built to last.”
DiComo hits on the very first thing I wrote on Twitter immediately after the deal went down:
“The Braves just got significantly stronger and younger, not with minor league talent, but at the major league level.”
The Braves are building for the short and long term. They always have. They don’t always rely on their prospects to win, they often use them to get the players they need to win.
As I wrote in a post last week, the Nationals and Braves are set up for a decade long run of dominance with more elite prospects still on the way. They are built to dominate now, and to sustain that dominance for a long time.
Additionally, the Braves and Nationals always make their drafts count and never leave the best player available on the table even if they have to overpay or hand out record breaking bonuses to keep them.
The National League East is and will continue to be a force to be reckoned with regardless of how things pan out for the Mets.
That’s an undeniable fact.
Sooner or later the Mets are going to have to bring in some MLB talent that can take the team to the next level. That may cost us either a lot of money or some of our better prospects. But until that happens we’re pretty much just standing on the sidelines while our division rivals are in the dynasty-building business.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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It’s become clearer everyday that “THE PLAN” is to be the worst team we can be without appearing to TRY to be it, in the hopes of collecting top picks for a number of years and then when the rest of the NL East stats to falter we make our move.
By the time the Prospects Basket people here are putting all our eggs into actually get here…
Niese, Murphy, Davis will all be Free Agents, Wright will be 34 or 35. Harvey will be almost out of Arb years and we will be foreced to trade them for more kids and another 4 years or WITH LUCK all those top picks they get rush through the system and they decide to keep one or two of those names I mentioned and hope the kids are enough.
This is why competing even in 2014 is a pipe-dream. The Mets are not good enough now, and they haven’t taken enough steps to be good then. We have our hopes on Harvey, Wheeler, and d’Arnaud. We have one established player in Wright, and few others who look like good pieces in Ike and Niese. That core doesn’t even compare to anything the Braves and Nationals have. We can make fun of the Marlins all we want, but you see what Seattle offered for Upton…Seattle will offer even more for Stanton. And then even the Marlins will have better young talent than we have.
P.S. People who make fun of the Nationals getting back-to-back #1 overall picks might soon get their opportunities for our Mets to have back-to-back #1 overall picks.
So let’s get this straight….a team worse than the Mets last year that has given up virtually all of it’s MLB ready talent in the last 5 months, will be in BETTER shape once they get rid of their young, cost controlled franchise RF. That makes perfect sense.
when the mets and their dwindling attendance cant afford tejada during his arb years…ike in his arb years…duda in his arb years…and we stay pressing the reset button…its not hard to see that happening
The Nats are just now in that window and while on paper they look like they may be due to go on a run I know too well from experience not to take that as a given. The Braves though have done a great job at maintaining their competitiveness in the NL East while I should also add at a much less cost money wise than the Mets. The Mets the last 22 years according to USA Today have spent $1,785,625,318 on payroll and have 3 playoff appearances to show for it meanwhile the Braves in that same span have spent $1,592,548,860 ($193,076,458 less) and have 16 playoff appearances (1 W.S. Win) to show for it.
Wow, what a disparity. Thanks for that info.
N/P by the way I left you an email.
‘The Braves are building for the short and long term. They always have. They don’t always rely on their prospects to win, they often use them to get the players they need to win.’
This.
That’s why the Braves didn’t stay down too long when their 3 big arms were headed towards retirement. All this with a moderate size payroll. Can’t find much fault with how they do business.
But whether you use those prospects on your own team or to fill holes in a trade, you have to have them to begin with.
And the Nats….owner has unlimited funds who had no problem spending big bucks when they were lucky enough to have the first pick when Strasburg and Harper were available. Took them several years though to get where they are.
“It makes for a particularly tricky situation in Flushing, where the Mets are concentrating on a long-term plan built around Wheeler, Harvey, Travis d’Arnaud and the rest of their vastly improved farm system. Tricky because the Nationals and Braves, perhaps already the two best teams in the division, are also built to last.”
Notice the quotes says: ‘also’ built to last. Implying that’s what the Mets are moving towards as well but are behind both the Nats and Braves with that plan.
Easier said than done.
Both the Braves and Nationals have about 4-5 years to win, the The Nationals have 110-115 million in payroll this year, that with out paying the big name guy’s. Nationals will have to pay big money in 4-5 years to resign Strasburg, Gio, Bryce, they also have to resign Detwiler and jordan Zimmerman in a few years. Nationals also rank in the bottom 5 in far m system prospect talent depth, other than injury prone players like Rendon they really have no chips to trade for big name talent if someone on the big club goes down. 4 years from now, can they handle $170+ million plus payroll? will see.
The Braves, on the other hand are never going to be $170 million salary team, which means they have to be creative. Right now they have an incredible amount of talent offensively, and in Relief, but where exactly is their starting pitching coming from? Hudson, Minor, Maholm, and Beachy coming back from a terrible injury? and if Kris Medlen is the real deal where will they get the money to pay him? In 3 years, Will they have $130 million+ dollars to pay to Hayward if he becomes a star, and if the younger Upton lives up to his talents where are they going to get well over $100 million for him? Currently the Braves farm system, although not as bad as the Nationals, it is still probably the weakest farm system they have had in the last 8 years or so.
So while talk of decade long runs are fun, it’s not so easily done. I give the Braves 3-4 years and the Nationals 5 years to win, before each team has to rebuild or reshuffle.
But of course both franchises are in better shape then our Mets.
Also, in addition to Upton, Hayward, Medlen, the Braves have to sign Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty. Eventually all these guys will be out of arbitration and making huge money.
Yesand when that time comes they will look at what is available and if it’s around the same price or slightly more they will sign the better guy (or trade for him) and let the player they had go….
Just as they have done this year with Bourn by signing one Upton and trading for the other!
We don’t seem to be doing that….We just let some go, Trade them off for something years away or sign some AAAA Player to take hi place in the name of some future spending that never materializes.
That’s when the re-shuffling starts and they’ll become a 78-83 win team for a period of 3-4 years, while rebuilding the farm .
Hi Russell,
My, how the Washington Nationals minor league system must have fallen in one short year after being named by Baseball America as the majors’ top farm system. Was it all based just on Bryce Harper?
http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120201&content_id=26545734&c_id=was
Neither franchise just woke up one day and said, OK we’re building our farm and also stacking the big club.
You can’t do 2 things at once when you are deficient in both.
To do the both at once thing (which is not some revelation) you need to build the farm first. That is the part that takes time.
This. Are we already forgetting that the Nationals have been the joke of the NL East for years? The reason they’re not anymore is because of the homegrown talent they’ve developed. Not only has it resulted in quality players for them like Harper, Strasburg, Desmond, Espinosa, Zimmermann, Dettwiler, Storen, etc., but it’s also put them in the position where they could afford to trade prospects because they could be reasonably sure that they would be able to survive without them, even if they did pan out. The Gio and Span trades were great, but they were great because of the position that they were already in. Same thing goes for the Braves; they’ve got their homegrown players like Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Medlen, etc., and they’ve got someone like Upton who they acquired using pieces from areas they knew they’d be okay in. That’s the position we need to be in.
Who are the ” elite” prospects in the Braves system right now ?
Teheran, their #1 would rank 4th or 5th in the Mets system. And maybe 3 of their Top 10 would crack the Mets’s Top 10.
The Nats Top hitting prospect, Anthony Rendon has been about as healthy as Reese Havens and Zach Lutz over the past couple of years and their Top pitching prospect, Lucas Giolito is out for all of 2013 with TJ surgery.
The Mets have a far better AND deeper system than the Nats & Braves right now. Of course, both the Braves & Nats certainly have impressive 2013 teams that should remain strong going forward.
But let’s see how these teams look by 2015 or 2016 when these payrolls will be awfully high if they hang on to every player they currently have. The Braves over the past 20 years have always had a very hard payroll cap. If they want to keep this core together beyond 2015, they’ll have to leave those boundaries by a lot.
The Mets should not worry about their division rivals but rather their own issues. By 2015, they have a good chance to be at a similar level, albeit with a window that is just opening.
What makes you think the Mets can keep their players? Do you think they are going to write Ike Davis 100 million dollar check? Who exactly is going to be elite in the Mets everyday lineup?
Isn’t Bryce Harper only 20 years old? Do we have a single elite prospect that young?
What is Heyward ? 24? These teams have younger players in the majors than our unproven prospects.
The 2014 projected Mets payroll as of today is about 50 to 55 million $ and barring any major additions it won’t be higher than 60 to 65 million $ in 2015 – which means they can add or keep pretty much every player they want going forward.
If Ike Davis and Daniel Murphy do well, you keep them over the next several years – even if they each eventually cost 7 to 10 million $ or more by 2015. If they remain averagish, you dispose them once they become expensive.
Sure, if you believe the plan is to proceed with a 90 million $ payroll longterm, then it’ll be quite difficult to ever reach the level where the Braves & Nats are likely to be in 2013 and 2014. However, with a loose payroll range in the 110 to 140 million $ range, this team has every chance in the world to get to that level, if managed properly. And it won’t be peaking before 2016 in all likelihood when the Nats will probably field a 180+ million $ payroll and the Braves have to find a way to somehow keep Justin Upton, Heyward, Kimbrel, let alone McCann and others and also pay them. Their pitching depth has also been eroded quite a bit. Maholm & Hudson will be free agents after 2013. If you plan to keep the young core together longterm but keep the payroll in the 95 to 115 million range, it’ll be awfully tough adding a proven SP.
Who is it that we are going to get to play any of the outfield positions, 2nd and 1st if Ike regresses or gets too expensive. I don’t believe the Mets will ever spend money under Sandy Alderson. That’s why the Wright contract was so foolish and in my opinion a Jeff Wilpon special . He is a good player but clearly a secondary star.
Also we assume Tejada is the answer. He may only end up being a middle of the road shortstop.
I also think you’re misjudging the Nats payroll – guys will be coming off during those years also plus they are owned by a billionaire who could bridge the gap over a few crossover years. The braves major league players are better than the ceilings for many of the unproven guys we have.
We will have to get very lucky with drafts like the Nats did. I lready view Nimmo as a miss
Gee if the Nats would be like the mets and keep prospects in the minors way to long they could have lets see, Brice harper in the minors and Strasberg in the minors. but the new breed of Mets fan says, winning in the bigs is irrelevant, let’s win the prsopect # war. Then we can have duh, nothing, just like every other year this horrid pathetic worn out loser of a GM has been in charge. Your logic fails. Justlike Alderson fails and his fax to you is bull.
?
The reason why the Braves and Nats are in this position is because their systems are deep. The Braves particularly can trade their prospects for Younger controllable MLB talent because they do not waste their picks on big free agents, keep their payroll at a flexible rate, and always have an influx of talent at every level. If you notice their payroll is always at the level the Mets are at now, so anyone who thinks spending is the answer is incorrect. If the Mets where to make a trade like that now their system would take a huge hit, they are still in the bottom 15 in the league. They are very close, next year they can add a significant piece or two in free agency and possibly make a strong play for Stanton with another good draft without taking to much of a hit in the system, exactly why you can not lost the 11th pick. The system is still weak at position player talent, although their are players recently drafted very high at key positions they are extremely young, but if they start producing more as they grow the system gets better just on that alone.
As it is the Braves and Nats are set up for a long time . The Mets are on that path, but it is just anger, ignorance, and impatience that clouds your visions.For this to be done properly it takes time, and you have to look at who will be available next year and the year after through trades and free agency, and know who might be ready in the system by then as well. As it is I see a David Price or Mike Stanton in the Mets future within the next two years if the system keeps getting built the way it is.
Peter just wondering how on Earth would the Braves land a player like Stanton? They have no depth in their farm system and will have to trade guy’s like Kimbrel, Freddie Freman, Heyward, just to restock the farm. Let’s face it, this is it for the Braves they better win with what they have they don’t have the trade chips in the farm system that teams like the Cards, Mariners, Pirates, Mets etc. have. The Braves cleaned out the farm this off season trading for a new CF and trading fro Upton. The only way to re-stock the farm now is to trade away guy’s on the MLB roster.
You keep bringing up Stanton. That is never happening. First he is a free agent in 3 years maybe 4. He will cost 150 to200 million to keep at that point. He has little incentive to sign extensions prior to that. Plus if he keeps getting better we will have to give up the wheelers and Harvey’s. he will end up in the Bronx or in his hometown of LA
In 2010 the Nationals won 69 games and I bet you’d find anyone here who thought they were in any way a contending threat. In 2011 they added a pretty good young pitcher from their their farm, Stephen Strasburg to go along with their stud 3rd baseman and a few other additions and won 80 games. In 2012 they brought up their top rated position player, Bryce Harper and improved the surrounding cast and 98 wins.
It’s not like the Nationals were a long term power. In fact, they stunk for years. But they meticulously built their farm thanks to years of high draft choices and judiciously added the pieces they needed, when those pieces could be of real use. They were also fortunate not to have a financial crisis to deal with.
There’s no reason the Mets can’t follow a similar trajectory now that they are just about done clearing out the old, non-productive contracts/players and getting their financial house in order. They have some of the best young arms in the game in quantity and locked up at low rates for years which will allow them to see who is worth keeping and who is worth trading and have built a solid, mostly young infield anchored by a young catcher who has a chance to be one of the best in the game.
The Braves have been a well run organization for years, no doubt. The Mets have not been. But with a little patience we may finally be building an organization that is also built to win for years.
You left out Jaysons Werths 126 million dollar contract. Not sure that was judicious but our point is correct. They stunk forever and lost their way into top picks ( like the rays) an after being so bad for o long they finally hit on enough picks ( got lucky) and now are good.
We are doing the same but just won’t admit it.
Also the Nats are aided by having a legitimate billionaire as their owner
Yea well that was what I meant by the surrounding cast thing. And yes, I agree that is exactly what we are doing.
I don’t understand why some people are upset that the Mets aren’t just coming out and saying this. No team comes out and says this. No fan wants to hear their team say that they are rebuilding, retooling, pick your euphemism.. they want to hear that they are going to win now.
Fans don’t have to be rational and quite a few aren’t. Management is supposed to be both rational and forward thinking and while I don’t necessarily agree with every move the Mets management is currently making I do agree with their long term vision.
No two teams are going to follow the exact same path because they have different needs, different financial and personnel situations. But the Mets are following a time tested path of building from within and bringing in young talent that can be under their control for years. I expect by next year at the latest we will see them start to add MLB talent through trades and FA signings.
No guarantee it will work but the thinking is sound.
We are not doing the same. The Mets will never finish last and have the first or second pick. We were never and are not a team in full rebuild. We will always draft in mid round where the odds of success are less than of those selecting in the first five spots.
It was a pretty good bet for the Nats to bank on Harper and Strass, it’s not the same as banking on Wheeler and d’Arnaud. Two different animals totally.
Yea, because the #1 pick is always a strasburg and harper? they got lucky both years those two guy’s were talked about like once every 20 years type #1 picks, what about all the other #1 picks?
Trout the #25 pick
Kershaw 7th pick (Luke Hochevar was #1 that year, Greg Reynolds #2)
Buster Posey #5 pick (Tim Beckham #1 Pedro Alvarez #2)
doesn’t matter when you pick guy’s like Heyward were picked #14, it depends on how you evaluate and how you develop the player
Well they CAN be if you know what your doing….
There is at least one player in just about every draft that will be as good as them…
It’s just how obvious is it at the time of the draft.
The team who evaluates and scouts the best will find good players and their ability to get the BEST player is all about how big a choice they have to get the guy they think is best.
Top Overall you pretty much pick the right guy he is yours and no one can stop you from taking him.
The Nats also didn’t have a piece like RA Dickey or even Carlos Beltran to trade for top prospects. If you do well in a couple of veterans for prospects trades, you don’t need several worst place finishes to get the high ceiling young talent you need to build around.
And for all the myth building, Bryce Harper had very little to do with 98 wins in 2012. He may be the reason why they’ll win 95+ games per year going forward. But you could have stuck 2007 Ryan Church in RF and have the same results.
Jordan Zimmerman
Danny Espinosa
Ross Detwiler
the package of kids traded for Gio Gonzalez
Wilson Ramos
Adam LaRoche
Tyler Clippard
Drew Storen
and others had nothing to do with losing 95+ games for a few years.
They were a product of good scouting, developing and trading.
Problem is, the Mets still have the remaining cancer which is their ownership. The Braves have survived bad ownership- from Turner, to the corporate entity, and everywhere in between because of solid baseball people. The Nationals don’t seem to have the ownership problem that teams like the Mets, Orioles, and Marlins have.
Your logic fails. The Nats got a new owner who is willing to spend. The Mets got stuck with the Wilpons who only want to save their own wallet. Comparing the mets to the Nats is assinine.
The Nats have never, not once, had one of the top 10 payrolls in baseball. This is the first year they have a shot to break into the top 10 with a payroll that might just break $100 million. The Mets were in the top 4 a couple years ago with the same ownership they currently have.
They also didn’t win.
There’s spending, and there is spending intelligently. The Mets haven’t spent intelligently in almost a decade now.
Exactly. Which is why I scratch my head at those pining for the good old days under Omar. Yes, the Mets spent a boatload of money, the Wilpons’ money, and no they did not build a consistent winner and the legacy of those years is at least partly responsible for where we are right now.
It’s boring to hear the same people whine about Sandy lovers over and over again. I don’t know a single person who loves Sandy or every move he makes but it’s not hard to see the type of organization he is trying to build and believe that it is a much more sound approach for building a consistent winner than what we have experienced around here for years.
“Yes, the Mets spent a boatload of money, the Wilpons’ money, and no they did not build a consistent winner…”
This.
Boomer, let me add that the Mets over the last 22 years according to USA Today have been in the Top 10 in payroll 17 times. They have 3 playoff appearances to show for it. For me It’s not about spending more but spending wisely and the Mets over the last 22 years have done a poor job of spending wisely.
And now we are living with the repercussion of what happens when you do that and fail. I still hold out that when the time is right they will spend again.
I don’t know about that….
I mean the team that we spent on was a hell of a lot more playoff picture relevent and consistent than anything we have seen since they stopped spending and there is no sign or light at the end of the tunnel that seems to suggest we are getting back to even THAT level anytime soon….
Whats even worse is you guys complain about the spending then go onto say that we are going to win something in 2014 and 2015 when we start SPENDING again…
Which to me is an admission that this whole crap about rebuilding is just a delaying tactic and isn’t going to do what you claim because it REQUIRES the SPENDING you all say you think is bad and the wrong thing to do…
I think you are misinterpreting what at least I am saying. I am not opposed to spending and in fact think its necessary to a certain extent. But as was said above their is spending and then there is spending wisely.
I don’t think much of what was done over the preceding couple decades was always wise spending. It was quick fix, add a star type spending which we have seen over and over, not just by the Mets, and it fails more often than it works. It also tends to rob the farm of young talent. Not just because of trades but also because some of the dollars that could have gone to farm development get caught up in the vicious cycle of spend now, and then spend some more to fix the next hole.
I also don’t think you give enough weight to the financial implosion the Wilpons suffered. Sure, it may have been their money and not the teams but who do you think spends their money on the team? It makes no sense to say the Nats now have one of the richest owners in the game and can spend what they want on players but the personal finances of the Mets owners don’t matter. The Nats outdrew the Mets at home last year by about 2000 per game. Forbes uses $23 per person per game in their calculation which amounts to about $3.7 million. And the Mets actually outdrew the Nats on the road so the delta is even smaller. It’s not all about attendance. It’s also about the wealth of the guys writing the checks. Always has been, always will be.
I do think the Mets will get back to spending money soon. Maybe not as soon as all of us would like but I rarely get everything I want. It would seem the worst of the Wilpons’ financial worries are behind them and they are now on more solid ground. The difference is they have spent the last couple years retooling the team to be younger, cheaper and centered around some really talented young pitching.
There are no guarantees this approach will work. There are no guarantees any approach will work. But I like this approach regardless of how we got here.
First off if it’s only about WISE spending there were plenty of players we could have spent on this year that would fit that description…
The problem is that this REBUILT team is all going to be in the MLB before this season is done….
You want to wait till all the clocks to start BEFORE you start looking for things to spend wisely on?
Is anyone going to be available next year to fill the OF holes that are considered any WISER spending than if we got one this year?
You cant really spend wisely when your back is to the wall and wait for ONE YEAR to get what you need because there isn’t enough in a year to get everything especially not an enitre OF.
So your setting yourself up (by not spending anything this year) to have to MISSPEND next year because you need too much and will have to pay a premium to get enough to fix your problems. Getting one this year would have made the burden less and you wouldn’t need to find three OFs in FA in 2014 maybe just two or one….
As for this:
“who do you think spends their money on the team?”
The TEAM spends it’s money onthe team, not the Wilpons….
The money it makes from selling tickets and all the concession and parking that goes with those ticket sales.
No owner kicks his own money in Revenue from attendance be damned. ANyone who thinks that I can only assume has never owned a thing let alone a business.
So by putting off tomorrow what we could have signed today your going to be Spending UNWISELY because you waited till the last minute and the stock you have to sign from is too low to meet your demand.
What I was getting at in my previous posts is everyone seems to suggest that Rebuilding leads to long term competitive teams…It doesn’t because it ALWAYS requires spending and not just spending AFTER your done rebiulding it has to start BEFORE those kids get to the MLB so your not wasting YEARS of their youth and control while you try to find enough pieces to buy to make all that rebuilding work.
>The TEAM spends it’s money onthe team, not the Wilpons….
The money it makes from selling tickets and all the concession and parking that goes with those ticket sales.
>No owner kicks his own money in Revenue from attendance be damned. ANyone who thinks that I can only assume has never owned a thing let alone a business.
I’m sorry, you’re just wrong. Rich owners are always more free spending because they can and often do sustain loses. Their wealth is their security blanket. Take a look at the Tigers and Mike Illitch.
http://www.freep.com/article/20120126/SPORTS02/201260500/Tigers-owner-Mike-Ilitch-praised-for-big-signing-lifting-Detroit
>>Gammons cited Ilitch’s willingness to lose money on the Tigers and use his own fortune to finance a high-payroll contender. Fielder’s contract busts the Tigers’ budget and will make it a challenge for them to break even this season.
>>”They don’t have to worry on the Tigers about losing money,” Gammons said. “You can’t do that in Cleveland. You can’t do that in Kansas City. You can’t do that in most cities.
>>”The Tigers have done it because Mike Ilitch wants to give people in Detroit something to be joyous about. To me, he’s one of the most charitable men in America. This is a great deal for a great player.”
Secondly, you should refrain from making statements about other people’s knowledge of how business works. Some of us have done quite well running businesses thank you very much.
The internet is like a box of chocolates, you never know who you’re going to speak with.
Big difference between willingness and actually losing money though….
Did the Tigers lose money? NOPE!
And neither did the wilpons until 2010 and made profits from 2006-2009!
Probably more money than they lost in 2010!
The owner in the Tigers case did not put his OWN money up to get that player….
He might have had to if the didn’t draw enough to pay for the singing…
But you see thats the thing about spending…It almost ALWAYS pays for it self the first few years…It’s only when they don’t win because that player by itself was not enough do they ever lose money on FAs they spent on.
That and when the GM goes on TV in July and throws his towel in.
>>The owner in the Tigers case did not put his OWN money up to get that player….
He might have had to if the didn’t draw enough to pay for the singing…
Of course he did. That’s the entire point. You can’t contractually agree to pay a guy over $200 million in the future unless you have the financial wherewithal to back it up. Obviously, you hope your attendance, concessions and TV money will cover the check but as the article states you have to be willing to personally back it up. And if you can’t pay guess what happens, you lose the club.
That’s been the Wilpons’ problem. They have been so financially weakened they could not afford to bet that they would cover their expenses and didn’t have the resources to cover big FA mistakes. So they cut way back to a payroll they knew, or at least felt comfortable, would be covered by a minimum attendance and TV money.
That’s the entire game in a nutshell. You might stay away but there will always be a baseline of fans who will show and enough people watching on SNY to cover the advertising rates to give the Mets a baseline payroll. That’s where we are now. And now that the Wilpons’ personal finances are looking more secure and much of the unknown risk has been removed they will start to be more able to spend money.
For years the Mets under the Wilpons were one of the most free spending teams in the league. That’s just a fact. And they only started cutting back when the Madoff scandal hit. Do you think this was just some sort of coincidence? They were being threatened with a billion dollar lawsuit a couple years ago, do you think that had no impact on how they allowed spending to go on with their club?
If you still don’t get it, I give you the case of the Texas Rangers and Tom Hicks.
>>The bankruptcy filing was the latest move in a 14-month fight between the creditors and Mr. Hicks, whose company defaulted on loans in March 2009, when Mr. Hicks decided he would no longer prop up the company’s operations with money from his personal fortune.
>>In January, Mr. Hicks reached a deal with Messrs. Greenberg and Ryan to sell the Rangers, the Ballpark at Arlington, and some 150 acres adjacent to the stadium in a deal valued at about $530 million, although the value has escalated with the rising amount of liabilities the new owners are prepared to assume. According to court filings those liabilities include almost $25 million that the team owes slugger Alex Rodriguez in deferred compensation and almost $13 million it owes pitcher Kevin Millwood. Neither player is with the team anymore.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704792104575264950799613356.html
Again, maybe you should stop saying that anyone who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t understand business. Some of us actually do.
So Metsie whats the deal? You’ve been saying as long as I’ve been reading this blog that anyone who didn’t agree with you didn’t understand business.
Clearly, I understand business and specifically the business of baseball better than you. And I have proven it with facts, not insults or name calling. And you’ve got nothing?
So where are the witty comebacks now? The name calling? The insults?
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about debating with other people not as morons who aren’t up to your intellectual level but rather people who are at least as knowledgable as you who have a different view on things. Typing in capital letters and calling other people names instead of knowing what you are talking about is not a winning strategy.
Just thought you might like to know.
You don’t understand crap about business if u insist that owners put thier own money up to buy Free Agents….
I suppose I had to put up a few hundred Million so Verizon could expand thier LTE coverage because I own stock in them too….
You just don’t get how business works at all!
You have never owned a damn thing!
And your link i about someone BUYING a team with debt….
It’s part of the purchase price dopey yet hereb you are beating you chest thinking you understand the difference….
So sad…If you did ever own your own business it sure wouldn’t last long…it would goo BOOMER UP!
The $25 million was for 2010. $70 million – 40 million = 30 million still in debt.
And we don’t even know if the short-term bridge loan was all used to cover the shortfalls.
Also, the very fact that there is a cash call clause for the new minority owners proves you are wrong,
The schooling continues!
Too bad for you they got 50 Mil from MLB…25 Mil in 2010 and another 25 Mil in 2011…
Link to prove that there was a $25 mill MLB loan made in 2011?
Here you go slappy….
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/05/sports/la-sp-shaikin-bud-selig-20110306
“Wilpon asked Selig to loan him $25 million from the commissioner’s discretionary fund, and Selig said yes”
This was in addition to the 25Mil MLB loan!
Since then all loans were paid with sales of the team and not a single penny of Wilpons was used to do it…In fact they took out some money they fronted while they were getting those loans secured.
LOL, strike three, you’re out, sloppy!
The loan they are talking about in that article is the $25 MLB million loan made in the Fall of 2010. There was no additional MLB loan made in 2011. LOL, that article is also from March of 2011 too, BEFORE any of those years losses could be accumulated.
You lost bad. Because even if there were a MLB loan MADE in 2011, you’re still wrong about the cash calls as both the NY Post and the very article you linked to proved. You’re just doubly wrong now as you can’t prove there was a MLB loan made in 2011!
Better luck next time.
Your flat out wrong….
The MLB had to approve the 25 Mil and did so begrudgingly and then got pissed that Selig gave them another 25 mil from his discretionary fund WITHOUT HAVING TO CONSULT THEM!
But believe whatever your crazy little self wants I’m done with you for today…
Nope, you are 1000% wrong, sloppy.
The loan made in the Fall of 2010 came out of Selig’s discretionary fund. And that is the loan that is being talked about in the March 2011 article, Your timeline doesn’t even make sense, The money was only needed late in the 2011 season or shortly thereafter, and so they wouldn’t need the extra money in March of 2011.
You’re wrong about the cash calls, And you’re wrong about the MLB loan.
The funny thing is I think even you know by now you’re wrong about the cash calls, Yet you’ve not admitted it nor apologized to Boomer who took you to school!
Sure you caner…If you know your team made 20 Mil in profits last year then you know you will have the money to pay him….
Are you under the impression that he gets all the money he is due when he signs the contract?
He gets paid when the Money comes in via Ticket sales and no Owner money is paid until the revenue doesn’t equal the payroll.
Which rarely ever happens to any MLB team that isn’t punting on half season, trading AWAY it’s best players and signing MiL contracts as their big move of the offseason.
I’m not sure what you are talking about but you haven’t addressed the fact that you were dead wrong about the fact that the owner, that’s a key term that you should pay attention too, it’s not the same as president or grand poobah, it’s connotes a legal responsibility that the courts understand, is responsible personally for the contracts his team signs. Owners of sports teams are unique in American business as has been noted by Congress. They represent a legal monopoly, but they still have legal responsibilities.
Continuing to insist that owners have no responsibility for the contracts they sign on behalf of their teams is ignorant to the facts.
No the COMPANY called the METS is responsible….Not the ShareHolders!
Ever hear of LIMITED LIABILITY? It applies to ANY CORPORATION which the Mets must be in order to do business!
Tell me something Mets lost 143 Million the past three years….
Tells how much WILPON money was used to pay for any of it….
Answer that question and then I’ll tell you how much WILPON money was actually used to pay the debt.
The problem is your thinking of business as if you owned a store….
Thats small thinking of you but probably about as high up on the corporate ladder you will ever experience.
This isn’t s tore with a sole proprietor…
This is a Corporation and it’s shareholders are not required to pay it’s debt. The Company is and if it can’t it can declare bankruptcy but not a single shareholder will have to pay a penny out of pocket to pay those debts!
So you think you got me but again you just showed your lack of corporate understanding in the ways big business works.
Ok, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You pretend that shouting means you know something.
>>In June, the cash-strapped McCourt struggled to meet payroll, only meeting it with help from some of his friends. As the Dodgers’ end-of-June payroll, which included over $8 million in deferred payments to former Dodger Manny Ramirez, neared, it was reported that McCourt would be unable to meet payroll without the approval of a 17-year, $3 billion TV deal with Fox Sports Net. However, on June 20, MLB commissioner Bud Selig declined to approve the deal.[20] Selig’s action also voided a settlement reached on June 17 between Frank and Jamie that divided their assets apart from the Dodgers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Los_Angeles_Dodgers_ownership_dispute
I’m tired of arguing with someone who either refuses or ignores facts in favor of their pet theories of how they think business works.
I really don’t give a crap how you think things should work. I’ll stick with how they do work.
You have the wrong example there because McCourt TOOK DODGER MONEY….
Thats why they had no money to pay thier debts because he took THEIR MONEY spent it and then couldn’t pay it back….Thats why he was responsible for paying the TEAM so it could pay its own bills!
You really can’t seem to find a good example of what yor trying to say…So far both examples have nothing to do with the owner being required to pay TEAM debts just one where he had to repay his OWN for ROBBING the team and another for agreeing to pay outstanding debts of the TEAM they were about to buy!
But since you like links try reading this one….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability
“If a company with limited liability is sued, then the plaintiffs are suing the company, not its owners or investors. A shareholder in a limited company is not personally liable for any of the debts of the company, other than for the value of their investment in that company.”
There wrap your head around that because thats the part of business you seemingly have failed to grasp!
Get back to me when you find an example that fits under that reality.
I know perfectly well what an LLC is. My current business started as an LLC before we took on shareholders and incorporated.
Here’s a tip. Neither the Mets nor any other MLB team is a LLC. The operate as a unique monopoly approved by Congress.
Try again. And do better cause at this point you’re just embarrassing yourself to more than just the Core.
Most owners of MLB teams are definitely required to cover shortfalls in cash flow. It was even recently referenced when the Mets were selling minority shares. As part of the agreement, the Wilpons agreed that the new minority owners would not be required to cover cash calls for a limited period of time — 6 years. But thereafter, if there is an operating loss, the owners have to cover that.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2012/01/12/mets-close-to-selling-small-number-of-20-million-minority-stakes/
LOL now your just making crap up….
Guess what your company is STILL and LLC….It never dies…It’s a corporation!
The Monopoly is not APPROVED by congress it has just been given exemption from Anti-Trust litigation but it is still a corporation and limited partnership….
Sorry but you have yet to show a case where the owner had to pay bills of a team out of pocket….
In fact if your first example showed anything it proves they don’t they can just sell the team with all of it’s debt and never pay a penny!
Guess you wish you could take that example back now huh?
Name even ONE that has!
Most owners are required…LOL As if other are not!
It’s all or nothing dude so you had better figure out which one it is…
Since this bizarre commenting system will only let me respond here, no, I don’t wish I could take back a single thing. I am more sure now than ever that you have no idea what you are talking about and think that bluster makes you smart.
You’re completely wrong when you say an LLC never ends once you incorporate. If that is the extent of your corporate law knowledge you are dumber than I thought you were. And trust me, that was a very low bar.
But that’s beside the point. As I said earlier, neither the Mets nor any other MLB team is a LLC in any sense of the term. MLB operates in it’s own monopoly with their own rules. But one rule is absolutely clear to all owners, they are personally responsible for the debts their teams take on, If they can’t meet them, they are out. How this is a mystery to someone like yourself who proclaims endlessly to be an expert on everything about baseball is a mystery. Well, not really, some of us know why.
But you go on thinking you know everything about business and baseball and being completely stunned why life operates in a completely different way than you can understand. The world needs people who shout and rage for no apparent reason.
So you think Bill Mahr (being an owner of the Mets having recenty paid 20 Mil for a share) Got a bill from the Mets that said BTW we appreciate that 20 Mil you invested in us and we are happy to inform you that you must now cut us a check for your share of the 23 Million we lost this year…
And I have it all wrong….
Please if you can’t even figure out the reply system here then stay out of discussions on how complex business’, Corporations and Limited Liability companies operate and who is required to pay thier bills…
Cause you really have NO GRASP of the situation involved.
The only thing the owners can lose is thier investment.
If the team doesn’t make enough money the TEAM must take a loan (as the mets did in 2010 from MLB and 2011 from BoA,essentially borrowing from one creditor to pay for another) and then to pay off the loans the METS took to pay the bills the METS sold off shares of the team and paid those loans off….
NOT A SINGLE WILPON DOLLAR PAID FOR OUR LOSSES THE LAST THREE YEARS!
SO just stop thinking you know what your talking about….Work on the reply system first then work your way up to the tough and complex items.
Geesh … don’t you read? Why would Bill Maher get a bill when the link says the minority shareholder were told no cash calls for 6 years?
As for the Wilpons never covering losses …
After a disappointing season, the Mets are expected to lose $70 million in 2011. However, up to this point, the Wilpons have kept the Mets solvent by putting an additional $38 million in the team, the source said.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/mets_next_pitch_WTbeypwaj93Lp1Mb58gOQN
There are times when an owner just can’t get any more loans. Which is what happened to the Wilpons. So they have to cover any losses.
What link says that? Another fantasy you dreamt up?
Second….They DID get a loan in 2011 so all they did was float the money and take it back once the loan was finalized….
But you didn’t get that from your unnamed source did you?
Nope didn’t think so…
Metro12 = the unnamed source in the rumor that beltran and omar had a personal connection !!!
LOL, look up! It’s just 4-5 posts right above. Geesh!
And, NO, they did not get a loan in 2011. They got one a full year prior to that in 2010 to cover shortfalls that year. That was the MLB loan. And that was for just $25 million. The shortfall in the Fall of 2011 was $38 million!
Hi Metsie and Metro,
Metsie, I have to side with Metro here.
The Wilpons did put $38 million of their own pocket into the Mets when the team was losing $70 million overall. I was the one who came across that and brought it to Metro’s attention when we were having our own conversation about Forbes’ credibility. I even asked Metro whether or not Forbes could have included that in their calculations to say the Mets only lost $40 instead.
Neither of us, of course, knew the answer. In fact, I even tweeted Forbes (Metro, no answer back yet) to find out why how they came up with a figure lower than most other financial sources.
I have not done further research as to find out what that $38 million was used for but assumed it was to help offset the losses in order to pay bills – since no more loans were coming from MLB, or in the form of a bridge loan. And it was at a time the Wilpons had yet to sell those minority shares. So my uneducated guess is that Fred simply needed to in order to hold onto the team for no help was coming from anywhere else – a sign of how fragile a footing they probably are still on.
I did attach the article in which that information appeared but don’t recall anything more made of it other than Fred had to put his own money into the club.
Thanks, Joey. It’s just amazing at how some can be so confused about the way the finances of baseball teams work.
Another example of owners covering expenses: I recall when the Red Sox had to pay the 50 million posting fee on Matsuzaka, John Henry had to use his own money. Now he may have gotten all or part of it back, eventually, but he had to cover the “shortfall” himself, out of his own funds.
“And, NO, they did not get a loan in 2011.”
Read it and weep….
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7346675/new-york-mets-received-40-million-bank-loan
“Neither of us, of course, knew the answer”
I however DO know the answer…They put 38 Mil in by getting a 40 Mil Loan from BoA…
They actually put 40 Mil in and it wasn’t thier own money!
They did float the bills until the loan came in to repay them back the float.
:Nope. You do NOT know the answer.
There is no indication that the BRIDGE loan, which is a short term loan, was used to cover the shortfall in operating expenses. The 38 million that Wilpon plowed back into the team appears to be a separate transaction.
Even if they used some of the BRIDGE loan to cover the shortfall, there was still another 30-40 million in losses that year. Where do you think that comes from? Thin air?
Bottom line is you were simply wrong that a team’s owners aren’t liable for and don’t cover a team’s losses.
To be more specific … There is no indication that the BRIDGE loan, which is a short term loan, was used to cover the shortfall in operating expenses that the Wilpons covered with their 38 million cash infusion as the NY Post mentioned.
And, you have just proven yourself wrong! In that same ESPN article you linked to, even Sandy says: “On the other hand, I’m not surprised. With losses that we sustained last year, they have to be funded somehow — and that’s either with cash or debt. Owners can’t always get another loan if they are already highly leveraged. So cash is the only option!
40 Mil from BoA plus 25 Mil from MLB = 65 Mil
70-65 is about 5 Million dollars in cash
Here endith the lesson!
The $25 million was for 2010. $70 million – 40 million = 30 million still in debt for 2011. That needs to be covered.
And we don’t even know if the short-term bridge loan was all used to cover the shortfalls.
Also, the very fact that there is a cash call clause for the new minority owners proves you are wrong,
The schooling continues!
He spent but he also made very good trades and found undervalued pieces at major and the minor league levels. He made some mistakes late but let’s not assume he inherited a rolls Royce when he took over. The team sucked and was a last place club with many undesirable pieces.
He turned that around quickly.
I have yet to see anything more than cashing good chips for a prospective good return from our new FO. Hopefully it works but anyone saying this isn’t Aldersons team now, and still likes to blame the last guy can’t betaken seriously.
Too many things can happen to say that anybody is standing in the way of anyone else’s long term plans. The Braves were a joke for a decade before the 1990s. The Mets went into the 1997 season having lost all three of their Generation K prospects.
As little faith as I have in the Mets front office, things happen. The right trade, right draft picks, you never know. Did anyone see 2003 as the pinnacle of Mark Prior’s pitching career? Too much can happen that can derail a team’s destiny.
Do I have faith in the Braves front office keeping it together? Sure I do. A quarter-century of success cannot be argued with. The Mets? No. The Nationals- jury remains out. However, I think the Marlins will sniff the postseason again before the Mets do- something about the ability of that team to develop talent…
I think the real problem here with thinking that some team’s MiL system is going to allow them to have long term success is that is only true if you believe 4-5 Years is LONG TERM….
Whatever you have in the Minors now is only going to speak to about 5 years of production 4 years from now.
So if you want to succeed long term and keep the Youth ball rolling there is really only ONE way to do that….
Via the Draft!
Pick good players and the pipeline keeps flowing…Trades cost you as much as they may get it’s like putting todays’s money into a 4 year bond that may never return the same amount of money you put in and even if it does there is no guarantee that the interest from doing that actually helps you win considering you don’t know what team you might have when you cash it in.
There is only one way to compete for longer than 10 years with Kids…
Draft better than anyone else….
And if you can’t do that you havde to do what the Yankees, Braves and Phillies appear to have done…They BUY PLAYERS, Don’t worry about dumping them when they decline either via trade or eating the contract and then go buy a replacement thats younger and does as more for you than the guy they dumped!
But trading your best players just to have the priviledge of promoting some UNPROVEN KID every year is not the path to long term success….
EWspecially when your trading away All Stars and Cy Young winners to get those kids.
All it takes is one or two busts to have that method blow up in your face and send you to the Cellar!
The Phillies bought players after they won it all…
They developed Hamels and Rollins, Utley and Howard and were able to successfully reclaim the Jayson Werths and Shane Victorinos of the world.
You don’t sign a core, you develop one either through your own minor league system or trading for young players. The only team that signed a core and won championshipS is arguably the 1976-1981 Yankees- who sure, they signed Reggie and Catfish Hunter- but they had already had in place Thurman Munson, Ron Guidry, Graig Nettles, Willie Randolph, and Mickey Rivers who grew up together in the organization for a couple of years before those big pieces arrived.
The Mets have not developed their core since the early 1980s.
This.
In a recent chat Jim Callis of BA said he ranks the Mets farm system at 18 and mostly due to Wheeler and d’Arnaud. After they come up in late April, the Mets farm system may ranked 24-25 again when BA does their mid-season rankings. Braves and Nats have quality PLUS depth that is not wrapped up in two players.
Exactly! That Minor League we have spent two years rebuilding goes right back to the ranking it was before we traded or let go 4 All Stars, 1 Cy Young Winner and a guy who if here would be the best OFer on a team with no Outfiled!
We have accomplished pretty much nothing and are in the same exact place we were when we said we had to trade away our BEST PERFORMER each year (and multiples) to rebuild the farm….
It’s a vicious cycle that will lead to only one thing….
Trades of Davis and Niese next offseason
Maybe even trades of Murphy and or Wright
Eventually Harvey and Gee wil go too
Because we need to rebuild the minors for a sustained competitive franchise that NEVER COMES!
john Sickels who has been publishing his book on prospects for 15 years and has been more accurate in grading farm systems then BA has ever been. Also every other prospect ranking publisher has the Mets either in the top 10 or top 13. BA has been dead wrong on the Mets system for as long as I can remember they over ranked players like Humber, Miledge, and Pelfrey, meanwhile when there is actual talent they ignore it.
Mets: http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/12/16/3775304/new-york-mets-top-20-prospects-for-2013
Braves: http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/11/8/3620974/atlanta-braves-top-20-prospects-for-2013
Nationals – http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/12/27/3809440/washington-nationals-top-20-prospects-for-2013
This is not even close, the Nationals system Reminds me of the Mets farm in 2010 it is pathetic, and the Braves system is full of utility players and pitchers who may not even bee good enough for the BP.
I mean it’s not even close:
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2013/1/2/3829866/minor-league-system-rankings-based-on-sickels-rankings
Your funnyRussell. Tell us Mr Alderson Jr just where the Nats need their farm to save them the next several years? First base NO, 2nd base NO, SS NO 3rd base No. Catcher NO, outfield NO, Starters NO, Bullpen NO. See, their farm made them Youy Sandy lovers are totally clueless and don’t look at anything in the big picture. One little isolated stat makes your boy a false hero.
I’m a little confused where in my post did I imply that I am pro Sandy Alderson? My apologies, perhaps I should spell things out for you, I’m in no way in favor of what the Mets current GM and management is doing. Take that for what it is. unless you’re a troll.
As far as my post, I was replying to the above poster who implied that the BA “imaginary ranking” of #18 is a way to say that the mets farm is just as bad as the Nats or the Braves, or close to it. When in fact it is years a head of those 2 farms, I’m a big fan of Sickels rankeings and have been for almost 10 years, his grades are accurate and he reviews all his grades years after to see how close he was to his projections. The links are there for you if you wish to actually read.
Funny I seem to recall a “Stacked” Mets team in 2009 and 2010 who didnt need much of a farm system either but then injuries took their toll and there werent players to adequately replace them. So, you are presuming the Nats go without injuries. While it is possible, it is not likely.
What happens if Zimmerman goes down? Or Harper? Or Strasburg? Or all of them.
in 2009 the ENTIRE TEAM AND BACKUPS TO BACKUPS were hurt. That is so unfair to not mention that i don’t know where to begin. But that’s typical t agee – unfair and dishonest. Blaming the last 20 years in which the Mets had 5 opportunities to get to the World Series and establish some sustained success. But due to losing fair and square in some highly competitive baseball games that did not happen.
But it gives you solace to go back and second guess and blame the executives. Typical t agee
Ah Bayonne is here…he finally broke away from his educational session on cartoon network. Keep learning champ.
Again, you show your poor self esteem that we discussed the other day. It is time to stop being a cyberbully…it doesnt make you a man. The guy who beat you up in the schoolyard cannot harm you any longer….let go of the anger.
As for your baseball argument, you are further out in left field than Jason Bay with his double concussions. It is a valid comparison because the Mets did not lose their starters and all their backups. That is misleading or as some choose to call it, dishonest. Notice your word choice…might be time to look in the mirror.
Hey t agee,
There’s really not much else i can say if you think i’m being dishonest when I say almost the entire team was hurt including the backups for the backups.
Every honest person reading my words knows that it’s true so I don’t need any backing really so for you to say that it’s not true and i’m being dishonest? Well i don’t know how to respond to such a outlandish, erroneous, and basically incoherent response.
Here’s a reminder:
http://metsonline.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/mets-crank-injury-list-up-to-11/
But I’m sure you’ll assemble a short story, 4 years later, on what should have been done.
That is typical t agee and make NO mistake YOU are t agee. Once a jerkoff always a jerkoff
Did Callis say anything about their criteria? Youth and projection vs upper-level production? Because I´m hopeful that the guys at the lower levels will continue to progress and keep the Mets system at least even with where they are now, if not better. Next year the top prospects may by Syndergaard, Flores, Montero, Fulmer, Nimmo, Lupo….
Good point – I was thinking the same thing.
Even when Wheeler and TAD come up, the hope is after the 2013 minor league system some of those prospects move up a notch or two. The rest aren’t going to stay stagnate after those 2 come up this season. This is where you rely on the development.
According to BA, Gavin Cecchini also was the #2 prospect in the Mets system prior to the Dickey trade with Luis Mateo at # 4 being the best P prospect behind Wheeler. Their Top 10 list has been done by Matt Eddy over the past few years, before by Aam Rubin. Eddy also had Brad Holt and Juan Urbina in his top 10s at a time when most other Mets prospect followers didn’t even have them in their Top 20s anymore.
Every other reckognizable prospect ranking outlet has the Mets as an ” easy top 15 system” right now.
Even Jim Callis – when I e-mailed him – acknowledged the promise & depth at the lower levels but just doesn’t like what’s there at the upper levels beyond Wheeler & D’ Arnaud at all. So, apparently Flores, Familia, McHugh, Tovar and others aren’t liked by BA.
Where having a bit more in- depth knowledge would help BA is that the young wave of pitching currently in A- Ball should advance faster than expected than your normal group of kid pitchers from A-Ball. They already mostly have above average control and power stuff. And don’t need projection.
Also keep in mind that BA generally places a high emphasis and pride on their draft coverage. And the Mets have happened to stray away from the BA lists Nimmo & Cecchini were rated several spots lower. BA didn’t even have Fulmer and Plawecki on their pre-draft Top 100 list. Now, time will tell whether BA or the Mets got this right. But that lack of hype certainly didn’t help the Mets in their eyes.
The BA Top 10 list for this winter certainly doesn’t prove a very intense look at his system. It’s by far the worst compilation among any national outlet ( leaving out MLB’s list by Mayo which still has Havens at 8).
Seems everyone is more sold on the Braves than I am. Make no mistake, over the past 2 decades, they are one of the elite franchises; there is no doubt about it. They have done a fabulous job of developing talent while bringing in major league level players to fill in. That being said, Liberty is not going to give them extra money to spend. The Braves payroll will work its way up slowly. The Braves make up such a small percentage of Liberty’s profits that they are an afterthought in the board meetings.
As for the present team, they are going to have to pull some magic to repeat what they were in 2012. Their SP is very suspect at this point. Keep in mind all arguments against Dickey when they were made; the age factor was at the top. Well, how do you think that applies to a guy of similar age, Hudson, who isnt a knuckle ball pitcher? Also, is their BP going to be lights out again. Lets be honest, they were sensational…is it possible to maintain that high a level of performance. As for the rest of the team, it looks like they have a solid lineup. But there are a lot of strikeouts there and many are apt to prolonged slumps.
The Nats are the cream of the East right now. The SP is loaded with the BP even being better. Their lineup is balanced with a nice mix of professional hitters and power. This team, on paper, is going to be tops for a number of years.
Of course, people said that about the Mets teams of the mid 80s and they won only 2 division titles. Injuries, under performance, and surprise teams have a way of cropping up and destroying some of these dynasties.
Try it another way….
Who are you sold on to be good this year and next more?
The Braves or the Mets?
Personally Metsie, I like the Mets position because of the SP. Of course, to have a chance the Mets BP needs to improve significantly. I do not believe the Braves has the SP going forward to compete the way the league is these days. Right now, because of the Uptons and Heyward, the upside potential of the Braves is great. For the Mets, the only one you really can say that about is Ike. However, if Duda and TDA come along with say a Flores replacing a Murphy, then you are talking a different ball game.
All is supposition but I dont believe the Mets are as dead as most want to believe because of the SP.
You have about a 5 year window on the SP though….
And two of your biggest chips there are still relatively unrpoven.
Harvey did great in his short time last year, no denying that…
But what if the hitters catch up to him this year?
What if Wheeler never gets that control that is starting him off in AAA this year? Especially considering where he is going to be pitching in AAA a park that makes every Pitcher look like a bust!
Gee is coming off Surgery, I believe he will be fine but you never know.
Santana is gone bext year so this new guy we got is still going to be pitching for us next year unless Mejia and Familia step up.
The Bullpen is still a shambles no real closer and the one we got is gone at the end of the year even if he does well.
What the Braves may lack in SP they sure will make up for just from the offense of thier OF alone…
While it’s true JUpton’s splits probably made him a bad fit here he is still playing the Hitter and HR friendly park so he probably won’t drop in production as much there as he would here…
Braves still have a pretty good pen especially compared to us…
So really I get the importance your placing on SP but we don’t REALLY know what SP we have We certainly are not deep in pitching once Wheeler comes up and are two years away from the next rotation maybe.
And all the while the clock keeps on ticking on Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Harvey, Gee, and Niese while the Age clock ticks away at Wright.
Hard to say that we will be competing anytime before the Braves start thier decline.
“Hard to say that we will be competing anytime before the Braves start thier decline.”
Before ? Next to impossible
After? Doubtful !
those are our odds
Absolutely Metsie…everything you say is accurate. It is a crap shoot with risks involved just like any route a team decides to take. We all know the Angels took a risk in signing Hamilton. He stays clean and productive, very good signing. If not, it will move Bay down the list of worst FA signings.
That is why teams that develop talent play the numbers game. People want to defend Omars regime but the biggest problem is where is all the talent. I give credit for Ike but where are the other 1B to back him up. How about 2B? Havens didnt work out but Murphy, a converted 3B, is their only choice. Catching? OFs? The list goes on.
Look at the Braves approach in the past. Take the OF. Justice, Klesco, Gant, Jones. They just kept producing them. Pichers? Merker, Avery, Milwood, Schmidt. They just kept pounding them out.
At this time, the Mets are dependent upon Harvey and Wheeler as starters. Their success rate needs to be pretty good. But, fortunately, there are more arms on the way. Will every one of them pan out? Not likely. Yet if 10 are headed up through the system, there might be 3 or 4 major league arms there. That is the formula a team like the Braves used.
As for the BP, I didnt mean to state that the Mets were anywhere close to the Braves in that category. They were first, the Mets last. Obviously that gap needs closing. The one advantage the Mets have is they cant get much worse. So the only direction is up. And perhaps, some young arms is the recipe needed.
With the improvement in the minor leagues and some talent floating through the system, I am happy with the direction of the Mets at this time. The Braves got younger which will help them in the long run but I am not sure they are at the same level as years past. Plus, their lineup is filled with guys who have had up and down career numbers. It is not as if Upton, Upton, or Heyward have put together 4 or 5 years in a row of terrific numbers. Like with the Mets, they are asking if the true player will show up.
Hi t agee
“That is why teams that develop talent play the numbers game. People want to defend Omars regime but the biggest problem is where is all the talent. I give credit for Ike but where are the other 1B to back him up. How about 2B? Havens didnt work out but Murphy, a converted 3B, is their only choice. Catching? OFs? The list goes on”
So you wanted him to draft a starter at 1B, 2B, SS, C, CF, LF, RF. So you wanted Omar to have an all homegrown team by now? I know you HATE any player over 29 and you spend all your time hanging around minor league fields even though you have no affiliation with anybody. Why is it you HATE any player over 30?
I thought you were gone for good when you disappeared at the exact time the Mets fielded their all homegrown team even though 2 years ago you predicted they would have an all homegrown team by 2013 that would include Jose Reyes, Angel Pagan and..wait..remember this?
t agee says:
September 16, 2011 at 12:08 pm
“If they threw Hermedia in there who at 27 had a great year in AAA we could live him for a year in RF and see if he raises his value.
That would leave us with a potential everyday 2013 starting lineup of Grandell/Thole, Davis/Evans, Valdespin/Havens, Reyes/Tejada, Wright/Lutz (with Flores close), Duda/Evans, Pagan?/Kirk/Den Deker (with Puello possably in AAA) and Lagares/Hermedia in RF.”
That would have meant the Mets would not have made any trades or signed any free agents from 2011.
Dude, my advice to a sick puppie like you is to just pray the Mets have a winning team any which way possible EVEN if it has…gasps….OLDER players!
“People want to defend Omars regime but the biggest problem is where is all the talent”
It’s in the Infield and Pitchers mound…This is a point lost of the Sandy Cultists….
He HAD talent in the OF and Two more guys in the IF and Mound as well…
We traded them or let them go for the return of One Pitcher and a catcher.
As for it being a crapshoot only if an idiot is making the decisions is it actually a crapshoot.
a smart GM will make mistakes but fewer mistakes than successes.
Omar made two mistakes….Bay and Perez. People what to thorw Castillo in there but he made only 2 mIl more per year than our current closer and was much better at his job than our closer is.
If you really want to compare the two GMs and what they did then compare this…Who had the better OF and Pitching staff acquired if you split the team by acquisitions?
Who left the team without an OF? Omar or Sandy?
Who has gotten us more Young kids to pitch off the mound and fill that rotation?
Who actually has an IF on thier side?
And of the spending who has spent more wisely?
Sandy who has gotten nothing but crap even he knows which is why he has refused to re-sign anyone he brougt here outside of Chris Young?
As for the teams cited who developed talent they DEVELOPED it they didn’t just trade all stars to get them, they used the draft. Sandy has had two and signed one and a half of those picks.
The BP wasn’t as bad when Omar left as it is now….
Braves drafted and picked well you don’t see them trading away a chipper jones every year to restock thier minor leagues in fact you see them do the oppsote…Same with the Phillies…
Nats Drafted all those guys they didn’t trade away thier best 5 players two years in a row to get those kids they are winning with.
I’ ll pick the Braves in 2013 an 2014 and the Mets from 2015 on and going forward, ok ?
Your faith is undeniable. I love how you still hold on to this 2015 pipe dream. In 2015 the Braves will still have the Heyward and the Uptons in the outfield, Freeman at 1B, Simmons at SS, and probably Bethancourt at C. The money freed up from McCann and Uggla will be used to fill in the rest of the lineup. That lineup is better than anything we can project for the Mets right now. As for pitching…they have proven better at building bullpens than we have so I’m just going to cede that to them…since there’s no other way to predict bullpens. And yes we love our pitching, but so do the Braves…and oh yes, they have a way better history at developing pitching.
As for the Nationals, our best hope is that they keep a $100-110 payroll, because their core is still really young and as they grow in payroll, they will grow in projection. For all the love for Wheeler, he is in Strasburg. For all the love for Harvey, he is not Zimmermann or heck even Gio. I’ll call Zimm and Wright a push at 3B. And yes we have Ike and I guess d’Arnuad but they have Harper, Span, Desmond, Rendon coming.
I just don’t get our 2015 pipedream. Other teams have better talent, and better development strategies and just as good if not even better farms. Oh and the Phillies are due for a regression, but I don’t think they’re just going to stop investing in their product. As for the Marlins…you can argue their Minors is as good as ours now. And once they move Stanton (see Seattle’s failed Upton package)…they will have the best farm in the division, and maybe in all of baseball.
In 2015, the Mets have just as good of a chance to be good, as the Marlins. Heck, most of baseball would probably take the Marlins.
Hank, In 2015 Uggla will still be on the Braves payroll (13million), at 35 years of age, it’s unlikely anyone takes that contract unless the Braves eat a great portion. Hayward who is currently making 3.65 million will be in his last year of arbitration and if Pence got 13.8 million this year in his last year of arbitration, Hayward will get anywhere between $13-16 million. Upton who is currently making $9.75 million will be in his last year of the contract making $14.5million. Kimbrel will be in his last year as well, and as the best closer in the game he will likely camonda 12-14 million in arbitration. The Braves can not afford these raises and will not be able to keep all these guys, currently most of the Braves best players with the exception of the catcher, are all in arbitration period…which means after 2015 they are getting paid big time.
There is no way the Braves are going in to 2015 with Upton, Heyward, Kimbrel all on a 1 year contract, if the Braves can resign one they will if the other require 100+ million $ contracts they will be traded in the off season prior to 2015, most likely entering a rebuilding phase.
Q – who plays SS if Tejada is out for any extended period of time?
In 2013: Who cares, probably Quintanilla
In 2014: Wilfredo Tovar
In 2015: Tovar, P. Evans or G.Cecchini
In 2013: Who cares, probably Quintanilla
OQ signed a minor league contract, he’s not even a lock to make the team !!!
who cares??? really? thats ur answer ???
In 2014: Wilfredo Tovar
You dont even know if Tovar is going to hit AA pitching…he hit a scorching .251 last year….
In 2015: Tovar, P. Evans or G.Cecchini
LMAOOOOOO
so basically, we have no depth at SS…not on the MLB level…both evans and Cecchini are so-so far in the minors…
awesome..
living on a prayer
Bob Joby will be your next SS
Lumping the Braves and Nats together is nuts. The Braves have been dominant for 20 years. The Nats – 1. You can’t use terms like always and never with the Nats. They are in a very healthy spot right now, but you can’t compare them to the Braves. It’s just historically ignorant.
And you can’t compare the Mets with anybody except the Pirates. Don’t worry, twenty years of losing will pass by and like the Pirate ownership, Fred will make a fw bucks and you will be happy fir that is the only thing that matters to you new breed of not very much baseball fans.
Where have you been…the Mets basically have been losing for 20 years.
The mets had 2 brief spurts of success
98-00 and 06-08…with a WS appearence and a NLCS appearence…
in both cases, the teams were mostly built for short term success…with Omar rebuilding the farm quietly on the cheap…
getting pelf, niese, murph, joe smith, tejada, duda from 05-07 and ike, harvey, flores and the rest from 08-10
he basically did a better job of half-assing it than any other GM in Met history…
most go all the way in 1 direction or all the way in the other…
And it took the Nats since 1995 to build this. Years of loosing since the expo days. Then they became the Nats, lost for another bunch of years getting great draft positions and now, finally, they’re built for the long term.
The Mets have been in this mode for 3 years!!!! Give me a break Joe D, tell the whole story please. It’s not like when the Nats were losing they were also dipping heavily into free agency. That had not started until AFTER they drafted Straburg and already had a great system. You can’t twist the Nats as if they didn’t take years of loosing and drafting good players, to make your point. AND, the Nats have one of the richest owners in the game!! They had a build from within plan that took years before finally using that system and free agency to make their current club. Even after trading for Gio, they still had a deep system.
If the Mets make just one trade to get a GIo type player, their system takes a huge hit. That’s the difference between the two.
Joe, I disagree completely. Your assessment is so wrong. The Nats were build over a long period of time, and many losing seasons.
“The Nats were build over a long period of time, and many losing seasons.”
I never thought that was in question.
Off Topic: The things Rubin holds on to. A Manny Ramirez joins the Mets concept ad.
@AdamRubinESPN
Maybe #Mets can dust off this never-used ad concept that accidentally leaked seven years ago: pic.twitter.com/V5xo7tXn
https://twitter.com/AdamRubinESPN/statuses/295643233239851008
LOL…nice.
makes you wonder how the mid-years would have turned out if they had the balls to pull the trigger on Manny? Think that bat could have made the difference?
I am 99% sure that one year Manny was on the waivers that you could not pull back, meaning that if any team had just claimed him, they would have had him for nothing (put taking on the last couple years of contract_. Just can’t remember which year that was?
The player I wonder about in the fashion you just did ifthevansrockin is Vladimir Guerrero.
lol
responding to the fans lined up outside of SNY in the 2008 winter….Jeff Wilpon said Omar never approached them about Manny Ramirez in the entire time he was a GM…
2 years later…Omar said he had a deal with Boston for Manny in 2006, but it got turned down over money
So for those that said Omar had all this money…
realize the mets were coming off a playoff run…where their LF was injured and came to bat with the tying runs on base…and couldnt even walk to 1B if he hit a single…
the wilpons saw all this and STILL passed up on the best hitting LF in baseball…
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/10/healey_red_sox_.html
Now put Manny Ramirez in our lineup for 07/08 instead of Alou…
think we still miss the playoffs by 1 game?
Agree with the dominance of the Nats and Braves in the division. However there may be a chink in the Braves armor. In the past their starting pitching was ever so dominant. I think it could be a little more suspect. They have the best bullpen in baseball and certainly in the closer spot but Hudson tops the rotation at 38 and Beachy and Minor have not proven themselves to be durable pitchers that can go deep into games and Maholm is a good fifth starter. I think they better score a lot of runs.
Hank, the hopes are not on just those three. Add Wright, Davis, Tejada, Murphy, Niese, the many prospects that could contribute in ’14, and an extra 50 million in payroll.
That’s what they’re hoping will make ’14 better….not just the three you mentioned.
But those guys are Omar’s and they don’t count for some reason.
Shea, look at both comments in this thread, my point might be more complete if you read both. TRS, not sure if your comment is in reference to me, but I don’t remember mentioning anything about Omar’s guys.
Not you Hank, I did not notice he was speaking to you.
Fact: If the mets signed BJ and traded for Justin Upton….that would’ve totally changed the dynamics of the division…
Instead of having the WORST OF in the majors…we would have one of the top 10…and a deep lineup….that would also be balanced…
Yes that might’ve meant giving up the 11th draft pick, Matt Harvey, and Wilmer Flores…
but for the next few years…we would’ve had a lineup of:
1- Tejada ( cheap )
2 – Murphy ( cheap )
3 – Wright
4 – Ike ( cheap )
5 – BJ
6 – Duda ( cheap )
7 – Justin
8 – Travis ( cheap )
o well !
Well, the Mets made the decision to build around young pitching – basically the SF Giants or Washington Nats formular instead of a high- octane offense like the last Mets contender for example. Which doesn’t mean you can’t improve the offense during the course of an extended contention cycle – look at the mid 80s Mets. They started with strong young pitching and gradually added bats to that mix. So, Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler were keepers for obvious reasons.
And for all the accolades and hype that has always surrounded the Upton brothers since they were early 1st round picks, their previous organizations both were quite disappointed from unfulfilled expectations and they’ll be expected to replace a combined total of 11+ WAR players in 2012 with the Braves in 2013 over Bourn & Prado who were different kind of hitters but provided spectacular defense – which also helped the Braves pitching staff – and also gave the offense two pesky hitters that worked deep counts.
Again, make no mistake, the Braves are setup well for the next couple of years. However, that is more due to the existing talent already on that roster such as Heyward, 1b Freddie Freeman, slick-fielding SS Andrelton Simmons, C Brian McCann, LH Mike Minor, RH Craig Kimbrel, RH Kris Medlen and others – all homegrown players, I might add
But the Upton brothers replacing Prado & Bourn may not make any meaningful difference in their win column.
u mean like having a buster posey…a pablo sandoval…trading for angel pagan, than resigning him…trading pitching for OF Carlos Beltran…then trading pitching for OF Melky Cabrera…trading for OF Hunter Pence….then there is gary brown coming soon…
the giants had the 3rd highest batting avg and scored the 5th most runs in the NL
the giants had the 5th best ERA in baseball…
they play BOTH sides of the ball well..
this whole fantasy that they suck on offense is just a lame excuse to defend Sandy Alderson not doing anything about our OF situation
sit down and have a V8
I believe the Nats are set up nicely for a long run. I like their starting pitching. But I have my doubts about the Braves. First, their rotation is suspect. Especially this year with so few of their starters having logged close to 200 innings in recent years. Second, I’m not entirely sold on the positive impact the Upton brothers will have on their offense. Are they really any better than Chipper and Prado?
This is what Nick Cafardo has to say about the Upton brothers:
There was no name that caused more debate in organizations around baseball this offseason than “Upton.”
There were impassioned debates on the Upton issue, talent vs. intangibles. There were baseball people who pleaded with their teams to go after B.J. Upton as a free agent and to deal with Arizona for younger brother Justin Upton, and there also were those who said “over my dead body” would they have either.
Officials in one American League East organization were virtually unanimous in the opinion that neither Upton was for them.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/01/26/braves-acquisition-upton-brothers-spurs-debate/2lga8flNLTfIErTdIby28M/story.html
I’m not saying the Uptons are going to be a bust. But I wouldn’t bet on both of them either.
LMAO
“Officials in one American League East organization”
aka …using an imaginary source to back up my opinion
Cafardo has been writing about baseball for the Boston Globe for about 20 years. The Globe puts out more baseball talent, including guys like Peter Gammons and basically the entire staff of Sports Illustrated, than any other publication on the planet.
Cafardo is no shill. If he said it it is well sourced.
12/2012 – Cafardo: Red Sox Trying To Trade Jacoby Ellsbury, Sign Cody Ross
12/2007 – “The idea of the Giants trading Tim Lincecum seemed crazy at first, right? Cafardo says they may be willing to do so for a “stud outfielder.” How about Delmon Young?”
11/2007 – Cafardo also speculates that Andy Pettitte could follow Joe Torre to L.A. Pettitte has previously talked about a Yankees or retirement stance.
would u like me to link up all the “unidentified flying sources” this guy has ?
Cafardo’s job is to sell papers…
lmao
I never did understand the whole “lmao” thing. Do you think you are funny or did you think the thing you posted was funny or, what?
Cafardo is right a hell of a lot more than you are. I’ll take his reporting over yours any day.
so ignore the various times that Cafardo reported rumors via his inside sources and focus on the “lmao”
do u really think that worked?
here, I’ll try it again, without the laughter
2/2012 – Cafardo: Red Sox Trying To Trade Jacoby Ellsbury, Sign Cody Ross
12/2007 – “The idea of the Giants trading Tim Lincecum seemed crazy at first, right? Cafardo says they may be willing to do so for a “stud outfielder.” How about Delmon Young?”
11/2007 – Cafardo also speculates that Andy Pettitte could follow Joe Torre to L.A. Pettitte has previously talked about a Yankees or retirement stance.
would u like me to link up all the “unidentified flying sources” this guy has ?
Cafardo’s job is to sell papers…
wanna talk ?
People believe what they want to believe. If they don’t want to believe a particular report then the columnist is a shill, a phony, or his source is a hot dog vendor. When they want to believe the report, the columnist is the widely respected, highly regarded, etc.
We see this all the time with Adam Rubin, Joel Sherman, David Lennon, etc.
People in this country has been shooting the messenger ever since Alexander Hamilton started the New York Post. And in his case, they really did shoot the messenger, and killed him.
very true…however metro12 is trying to downplay ATL’s improved OF by referring to Cafardo’s report…that hinges on the credibility of:
“baseball people ” – WHO are these people???
and
“Officials in one American League East organization”
“baseball people” and officials in 1 AL east organization can technically be 2 people who work for the red sox
ATL’s OF is improved. had Sandy added BJ and Justin, folks would be pointing to the VA connection with David Wright and his powerful positive influence, b/c w/o it, BJ and Justin would start selling crack in between innings.
Huh? All those stories you cited were presented by the Globe as mere SPECULATION — ie, “may be trying” or “could be trying” type of thing.. There isn’t a baseball reporter alive who hasn’t reported speculation which ended up not panning out.
The story on the Upton brothers is reported as assertions of fact. Not speculation. Big difference.
Calling everything that doesn’t suit your viewpoint a lie is a weak transparent tactic.
An AL East team. Not an imaginary source. Probably a team that took special note of how B.J. Upton played over the years,
probaby a guy with the boston red sox…aka an american league east team…
so basically, nick cafardo relayed the message that john doe, an asst secretary from the red sox and his buddy jane doe from the PR dept. red sox disagreed while having a six pack of coronas over the upton brothers…
frames it in a way that makes itlook like he spoke to 19 scouts and 4 GM’s
yeah ok
try harder…except next time…with more flair
… Or the Yankees.
So, yes, basically an AL Team, likely the RS or Yankees,told Cafardo that they wouldn’t touch either the Upton brothers with a 10 foot pole!
I’d ask you to try harder next time, but it would be useless!
I need to see much more from Washington. The future of the franchise hangs on the unhealthy elbow of Strasburg. I still do not think he will last 5 full years in MLB and if he doesn’t, that changes everything.
I think they are trying (as they should) to win right now because they know their window isn’t a big one.
I can’t call a team who just finished above .500 for the first time in 8 years as “building a dynasty.”
I have to see more. They have talent, nobody can or should deny that. But “dynasty building”? No way
Hi Jessep,
Share with you about the future of Strausberg being a big question mark down the road. I see it maybe not just with the elbow but in his arm above it and shoulder. There is no fluid or smooth coordination between his arm and shoulder in his pitching motion which accounts for that whip action of his – he stretches it right across his back.
Having to see more from Washington before saying they have built a dynasty is true is similar to what many of us say about the Mets. We aren’t convinced they are truly focused on re-building as they are keeping down expenses in order to meet their tremendous debt with more of a hope that the prospects all come through – which is a tough order.
Sorry big Russell, never said anything about the Braves getting Stanton, they just hot Upton, I am talking about the Mets getting Stanton
I think that many are neglecting to observe that the Braves and Nats are clearly”going for it now,” by virtue of signings like Soriano for the Nats and the Upton acquisitions for the Braves. While there is certainly a decent window for fielding a post-season likely team here for both franchises, it doesn’t vary greatly from the models used by the Red Sox and Yankees in the AL East over the past decade, which still yielded at times to the Rays who were able to compete using a decidedly lower payroll and a less home run reliant offense. Using the SF Giants as a model (or even the LA Dodgers of the early mid-60′s), the Mets should certainly be able to compete if they can construct a team with a powerhouse rotation, decent pen, and ENOUGH offense. Don’t forget that the Giants won the WS while hitting the fewest HR’s in the league last year. It’s all about scoring more runs that your opponent, not the rest of the league. A project rotation of Harvey, Wheeler, Niese, and a decent 4 and 5 spot has historically been enough to get it done. The Cardinals of the 80′s are another example. Granted, speed was a big component, but has been overrated in my opinion. The Mets should have a deep enough farm system to provide chips for trades to fill the gaps in the next few years. It means a lot to have some smash at skill positions like second base and catcher which they will, and if Duda is worth anything, then RF is the only major hole to fill. I’m willing to be a little more patient.
Well, the draft rules changed. Can’t just overpay in he draft for talent anymore. D’uh.
“Additionally, the Braves and Nationals always make their drafts count and never leave the best player available on the table even if they have to overpay or hand out record breaking bonuses to keep them”
The title of the post refers to the Nats building a dynasty. It goes on to say that they are getting players right now at any cost because they want to win now.
It doesn’t say that the Nats are in this position because despite having a owner with plenty of money to buy any player he wanted years ago while they were losing, he waited and built the farm up. Years of losing help build their farm into one that fed the team and also contributed greatly in trades. The farm is so good that despite those trades, their system is still strong.
None of that is possible without the years of losing and holding the course, realizing that making hasty moves to appease a restless fan base wouldn’t help in creating a sustainable winning team.
Years and years of losing. They didn’t sniff the playoffs since ’94. Lets not try to point to them and say the Mets current plan is bad. This is Sandy’s 3rd year. Can he have some time to build a dynasty or is it all about inpatients?
The Braves have a window. Their farm is terrible. MCcann is in decline and they have Justin Upton for 3 years. They have no pitching left on the farm.
The Nats are in better shape, but their farm is on the slide. They have graduated most of their stars.
Put it this way…this “Mets are doomed because the Nats and Braves will be dominant for 10 years” theme is overblown. Big time.
Joe D
Where are the Braves elite prospects you speak of? I’ll wait….
Damn, the Firm seems to be kicking the crap out of the Core lately.
Any day now Joe will stop saying dumb passive aggressive shit like “Sandy lovers and those who don’t agree with what he has done”.
Any day now.
LOL
u mean like when The Firm stated that Omar had a personal connection with Beltran…based on the fact that Beltran was drafted in 1995…when Omar was running the draft for Texas?
or like when The Firm stated that Chipper signed a 6 year deal at age 34….lmao…
Nah, I think it was when the “firm” had to correct the “core” when the core said that Bourn only played 53 games in 2011 … or that Omar was Josh Byrnes boss (that was a real funny!) … or when the core kept insisting there were payroll rankings on a web page showing only attendance rankings!
a – i quickly corrected myself on bourn’s 2011 numbers, as i said before, i was in a car…in traffic…and my phone truncated the baseball reference page…
b – i listed oakland’s payroll rankings from 1982-1993…and it showed exactly what i stated…that sandy alderson, unlike billy beane, never won anything with a low payroll.
u lose
once again
try again
25 cents please
Before you listed anything, you were arguing that the web page that didn’t show any payroll rankings did. You hilariously went on and on and argued. Only after Joey admitted that there were NO payroll rankings on that page did you back down.
I have the link to prove it.
elite prospects?
lets look at their lineup
jason heyward – 22 ( younger than valdy, kirk, mdd )
freddie freeman – 22 ( younger than ike )
bj upton – 28
brian mccan – 28 ( 4 years older than travis )
justin upton – 25 ( 4 years older than Neemo )
dan uggla – 32
Their SS – Andrelton Simmons – 22
Simmons was named NL rookie of the month for June 2012, after hitting .333 with six doubles, three home runs and 14 RBIs in 25 June games. He led all NL rookies in batting average and on-base percentage.[9] Simmons also won praise for his outstanding defense.[10][11]
So, pretty much all around the diamond, the Braves are young and talented…most of their MLB productive staff is around the same age as our prospects and/or young players…
any questions?
Yes. Where are the elite prospects?
You named major leaguers. My point was their FARM was weak. Which means there is a window, not a “dynasty” as you Chicken Littles are claiming.
Actually, Jon, I totally agree with this statement of yours as it pertains to the major league club:
but anyone saying this isn’t Aldersons team now, and still likes to blame the last guy can’t betaken seriously.
Because by now, Sandy has had a chance to trade, release, replace or move almost all pieces around that he didn’t like.
Unfortunately, as I found out in another thread, some Sandy bashers want it BOTH ways and want to “cherry pick” blame/credit. That way they can blame Sandy if things don’t turn out well or give Omar credit it they do. SMH. Total double standards.
Ironic that you quote me from 2011 when I had not started posting on this site until 6 months ago. But that is okay, you never let the facts get in the way of anything.
As for a homegrown team, I didnt say draft and develop starters….just get some players at that position. Alderson had to sign bum catchers the last two off seasons because Omar had no catching worth even AAA in the organization. Remember, Thole was the starter and Nickeas was the backup. There was nobody at AAA. 1B…Ike and that is it. Middle IF…Cedeno is signed because the Mets have nobody to back up Murphy and Tejada.
That is the point. You heralded Omar left the minors is such poor shape that little of the talent he brought in is even able to make it to AAA. Even now, the AAA roster is going to be filled with a bunch of ST invites at C and OF. Do not forget, the AAA team needs to replace its best player, Fred Lewis, another journeyman player signed to fill a spot on the roster because there was nobody.