I wanted to comment under the Business of Baseball but it was closed. When have a chance, I’ll try to tweet Oz – it was just that his name was hard to spell (you know, like when Rocky’s friend signed autographs as John Smith because Bullwinkle was hard to spell)

I wouldn’t take Samson at his word on that since he is the second in command unde Loria….,

Again, that is third person stuff.

“He said, ‘I really want to play in Miami as long as you pay me $1 more than anyone else. … I really want to make the most money I can,’” team president David Samson told Miami businessmen during a speech Tuesday, according to Miami Today.

Still think scoring the highest contract wasn’t his ONLY goal?

Hey, blow Ozanian a kiss for me!

“He said, ‘I really want to play in Miami as long as you pay me $1 more than anyone else. … I really want to make the most money I can,’” team president David Samson told Miami businessmen during a speech Tuesday, according to Miami Today.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/39497/jose-reyes-is-a-ballplayer

Still think scoring the highest contract wasn’t his ONLY goal?

Hey, blow Ozanian a kiss for me!

I was looking for his name on twitter but just could not find it – or was just too tired to look further!

I’ll of course let you know but this will be most all I’m going to do with tweeting – don’t have the courage to confront Sandy LOL.

As far as Jose rebuffing Sandy, as mentioned, that is not unusual for players to do. However, I can concede the possibility that with his season going so well, Jose and his agent felt they had the upper hand in waiting – whereas, had Jose been having just an average year, they might have sat down at that time. Then again, had he been having just an average season, would Sandy have contacted Jose’s agent to begin negotiations at that time?

But that doesn’t mean Jose was going to go for the highest bidder. And yes, it was at that point where he said no more home team discount. That too could be because he was fed up with no negotiations up to that point. And yet Sandy was still willing to negotiate after the end of the season, having an idea of what Jose was looking for.

That’s what I mean – it’s all speculation at this point on both our parts. We both can raise counterpoints to each other. That’s why I can say there is no evidence to point to Jose only wanting to to go to the highest team offer and not wanting to return a Met.

We can only go on the facts as presented to us. That’s why we cannot say for certainty that what Sandy was telling us was just for show or that he simply played this one wrong. You know what my hunch is, but I will not swear by it being anything more than that.

If Forbes writes back to me, I’ll tell them you said hi!

Sure, Sandy miscalculated. But that was a risk he was willing to take. And I don’t think he miscalculated all that much. If not for Loria’s big bid — and no one thought the Marlins were going to go crazy that winter — then Sandy would have had the highest offer, roughly 85 million guaranteed with an option that would bring the total package to 100 MILLION.

The only thing I’m accusing Reyes of is going for the highest dollar. And not giving the Mets a home town discount. Frankly, he wanted the most money, plain and simple. He is not unique. There are many players like him.

If I think about it a little more, no one is to blame. It just wasn’t meant to be. Even if the Mets had been in better financial shape, I think the contract that Miami gave Jose was way too high. If the Mets had ended up signing signing for that amount or more, there would be Mets fans whining about him in 2-3 years when his performance declines. So they may have dodged a bullet by not signing him.

As for the $38 million, I doubt that type of money goes into Forbes equations, though I’m not sure. I mean, how would they know about it unless they monitor every team almost every day of the year for news tidbits like that? I would think the logistics of doing that would be impossible. Furthermore, if a principal owner plows personal money into a business to cover shortfalls, I’m not sure that it’s proper to count that against losses on a balance sheet for a business. It may be against accounting principles. After all, it’s not revenue. That’s something someone with an accounting background may know.

Be sure to let us know if you get an answer.

I just stuck with the timeline of facts and Sandy’s own chronological statements about both Jose and the financial situation the Mets were in – plus that of having Ruben Tejada – along with his background of contradictory statements and that is why it is either a case of Sandy not being as serious as he wanted Met fans to believe or that he miscalculated his moves badly and lost.

There is no evidence to show that Jose might have been just as guilty and was also giving fans nothing more than lip service. If he was, using a poker expression, Sandy never called him out on his bluff. Thus whatever one says about Jose is purely hypothetical. There was nothing on his part to base it on. And that includes Jose’s agent early on conveying to the Mets that he was seeking “Crawford” type money as Fred Wilpon said in that interview. So what? As Sandy said in November an extremely high first offer is to be expected.

Thanks for the links. I agree that other than Forbes, the reports all focus on the $70 million loss. I would like to know how Forbes arrived at such a different figure – but I bet the Wilpons wished that Forbes was right in their assessment.

This is just a thought – and only a thought – but the New York Post (again, via an “un-named” source” had reported that the Wilpons put $38 million of their own money into the team in 2011. That has to be accounted for in some capacity and could Forbes had taken that into account for their bottom line figure? Again, I’m not saying, I’m just asking.

But you know what I just did? I sent a tweet to Forbes asking why the $30 million difference. Will let you know if they tweet back with the explanation.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/mets_next_pitch_WTbeypwaj93Lp1Mb58gOQN

Speculation early on was that Reyes would score a Carl Crawford-type, seven-year, $142 million deal but the shortstop’s second hamstring injury this past season cost him, Greenberg admitted.

“He lost some value in the second half (when he went on the DL again),” he said. “He’s still a rich man,” Greenberg said.

While Greenberg doesn’t come right out and say it, it can be inferred from this exchange with the reporter that Crawford money was Reyes’ original goal.

And as for spring training, there was just no feasible way a deal would ever get done between the two parties. Reyes firmly had free agency and Crawford-type numbers in his head. He wasn’t going to settle then:

“Jose Reyes sat right there in that chair and looked me in the eye and told me he was looking for the same deal Carl Crawford signed. He sat right there in that chair. He said it on the air loud and clear, that he expects to get paid like Carl Crawford. This isn’t speculation, this isn’t from some blogger, this is from Jose Reyes himself who sat right there and said it to me. Now, is he gonna get a Carl Crawford type deal? Who knows, I don’t know. We’ll find out.”

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/05/francesa-on-jose-reyes-wright-mets-reputation.html

So, sure, if you want, put Sandy’s post-season negotiating strategy under a microscope, but you have to at least lay off his actions prior to and during that season.

It is common for players not wanting to negotiate during certain points of the season. David said he would not negotiate a contract extension once the season started, either, because he did not want to be distracted. Sandy knows this too.

So as it stood, there was no attempt by the Mets to begin significant negotiations until late June and that was when Jose told his agent he didn’t want to be distracted. We don’t know what Jose would have said had they wanted to open up negotiations earlier in the season. There is no proof that until that time Jose didn’t want to negotiate with the Mets before testing the free agent market – Sandy never gave him that opportunity. There is, on the other hand, proof that Sandy didn’t want to negotiate with Jose before he tested the free agent market just by Sandy admitting he wanted Jose to get offers and then come back to him.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/04/27/inside-the-new-york-mets-financial-ledger/

The above link is Kosman of the NY Post reporting on 2012 losses and says the $23 million lost in 2012 is 1/3 the amount lost in 2011. So that means roughly $70 million for 2011.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/04/27/inside-the-new-york-mets-financial-ledger/

The above link is even more interesting. It’s from April of that year but it’s from Fortune, and it includes sources who saw financial information regarding the Mets sale of minority shares. It says that they lost $50 million in 2010, and they project 2011 losses to be $70 million, which makes sense considering attendance dropped.

Why this second link is so important is because this is the information they were giving their potential partners, so there was no reason to lie. They could be in hot water with MLB and the partners themselves if it were later shown that the numbers the Mets gave them were not accurate. Also, if the Mets were going to give false numbers, they would lower the numbers. The lower the losses, the more value the Mets franchise, and the sweeter deal they would be able to strike for themselves with their new partners.

As I said, even their enemies like Megdal was reporting $70 million.

So really, Forbes is the ONLY one who reported a loss of just $40 million in 2011. Everyone else including Fortune reported much more.

If they only reached the stage of than “phone tag” by that time, then how serious could that informal telephone conversation earlier in the season have been?

I’m not sure what you are talking about. No one said there were serious negotiations earlier in the season or preseason. Preseason, neither Reyes or the Mets were inclined to strike a deal. Reyes wanted to test free agency. And Sandy wanted to see Reyes play first and also see how his health was. So there were no serious negotiations preseason because neither side wanted to strike a deal then.

Then, during the season, Sandy approached Greenberg about a deal, but was rebuffed and told by Greenberg that Reyes didn’t want to negotiate during the season! So I think it was clear at that time that Reyes wanted to test free agency. And yet STILL Sandy was hopeful of resigning Reyes.

What many of us argue is that so many make the assertion that Sandy did not pursue anything further after that informal telephone conversation with his agent because he already knew the Mets could not afford what Jose wanted.

Who is saying this? After the informal conversations in November, then Sandy had serious negotiations with Greenberg in early DECEMBER to try to sign Reyes. Yes, he had a limit that he wouldn’t exceed, but he still hoped to sign him. There are 3 links in this thread which show Sandy was in serious negotiations with Greenberg in early December.

it is preferable to deal with him while one has exclusive rights – not only just during the season but for that period after it ends

I’m sure Sandy agrees. But remember, Reyes refused to negotiate during the season, and he wanted to test the waters. He always wanted “Crawford money” and so there was no way he was going to accept substantially less than that without first going to free agency.

We know he did not play the wait game with David, he was not doing that with R.A. either, but he was doing that with Jose

That’s because neither was a free agent. So Sandy was not vying with any other team. He could plunge right in. But with Reyes, he had to wait till his market developed.

But to paint it as if it was Jose who walked away from the Mets

IMO, they walked away from each other … but Reyes a little more than Sandy. As I’ve said, all Greenberg had to do was call Sandy that first weekend in December, accept the 100 MILLION package that Sandy offered, and Reyes would be a Met today.

One thing you seemed to have completely forgotten that I want to reiterate — Sandy approached Reyes in the middle of the season to see if he would negotiate a deal and Reyes is the one who turned the Mets away! So for you to chastise Sandy on anything he did DURING the season regarding Reyes is totally unreasonable.

Sorry I misread your intent.

Over the last few weeks we’ve again presented evidence using Sandy’s own words from that first press conference introducing him to the public, a blogger conference call nearly two months later, his interviews in spring training, through that informal talk during the season and onto November.

In the past we’ve also presented articles where he spoke frankly about his business philosophy – not to mention a history of the Mets bad financial state and how they had to be saved by MLB because twice they could not meet their end of the month financial obligations because they had exhausted their working capital and financial institutions refused to give them any more loans (which says a lot in itself when a big market baseball team is considered by financial institutions as too much of a risk to invest any further in).

Everything he has said contradicts his actions and the conclusions of many others- including that of either 1) not wanting to rebuild around an injury plagued Jose and yet wanting to then negotiate with his agent and 2) perhaps willing to rebuild around Jose but couldn’t because Jose was out pricing himself but then wanting to negotiate after admitting he had an idea of what Jose was seeking and where a compromise could be reached – though still never offering a formal proposal (Sandy knows nothing is legal or binding until put in writing).

Well thats the point I made isn’t it?
If he really wanted him he would have made an offer before the Marlins got a chance to beat it…

He didn’t…and all this talk of phone calls and Options is really just an attempt to APPEAR to negotiate without negotiating…

Sandy never gave a formal offer for a reason….
Reyes might take it! And he really didn’t want Reyes to come back!
Something The circle jerk keeps insisting he did.

I think you are putting Sandy Alderson down too much in this aspect – for I don’t think his intention was really ever to sign Jose instead of just being a bad negotiator. It appears it was not a case of not wanting to bid against himself as it was not wanting to really bid at all but making it appear so with the public, then making it seem that Jose and his agent were the stumbling blocks by asking for too much.

All his public statements were for show for they did not back up the actions really taken. One who wants to make it a priority to attempt re-signing a player does not do it in the fashion he did. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t willing to re-sign Jose, but not that it was a priority.

Also, the argument so many make is that Sandy was re-building and that Jose would not be a part of it. If that is so, then why the claims now that Sandy made an offer to Jose to begin with and still wanted to negotiate with him. Doesn’t that sound like a contradiction of three things:

1) Didn’t have the money to spend and thus could not afford to keep him – yet then he is negotiating knowing he had an idea of what Jose would eventually want.
2) Wanted to re-build and did not want to be stuck with an injury-plagued shortstop who relied on speed and past his peak – yet then starts to negotiate knowing it would have to be a long-term commitment.
3) Re-signing Jose was a priority.

And why didn’t he just trade Jose at the 2011 deadline if he wasn’t serious about keeping him – and at least get something more substantial in return? Because sending Jose packing on top of already dismantling the team of it’s top hitter and closer would have been even a worse financial and public relations disaster.

Sandy was not going to commit to Jose for it was too expensive and that was a business decision which doesn’t make him a bad guy or a good guy. The problem is not so much that being the route he took but with others wanting not to see that and thus needing to blame Jose for what happened. I don’t see what the problem is for anyone to acknowledge that.

The question was answered quite clearly by MNJ….

There was NO FORMAL PROPOSAL!
They never got that far because he didn’t offer a 100M Guaranteed contract which was what he already had on the table….

Sandy tried to get options instead in these phone calls and was told why would I take unguaranteed when I already have it guaranteed….

But in the end Sandy actually spoke the truth and never offerred 100MIl or made any formal proposal at all….

And if he wanted to make a formal proposal for 100Mil unguaranteed the time to have done it would have been BEFORE Reyes was no longer exclusive and could get any other deals that would have trumped what Sandy wanted to offer him…

But he was too worried about Bidding against himself….
So he got what he wanted he had to bid against the Marlins instead….

And he LOST because of his own stupidity!

This guy is just going to run you around with half facts and semantical definitions of what an offer is…..

It wasn’t an offer it was a question asked of Reyes’ agent on what might be an ACCEPTABLE offer….
It wasn’t acceptable enough to trump the offer he already had because Sandy wanted someone else to bid before he did!