Morning Grind: “There’s Not A Lot Left On The Shelf”

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• Alex68 January 28, 2013 at 8:59 am

  Thsi guy is a liar. From day one i knew his intentions were to just clear salary for the wilpons and somehow put a team on the field, by acquiring all the former rejects from the padres, jays and oakland tells you how much of work these 3 gooners are doing. they’re not even looking at players from other teams and are still gung ho on their former players, why you ask? Because that way you don’t have to actually work on scouting anyone else, so go with whatever you think you know, hence the PO’s we’ve acquired this offseason, but is anyone surprised? Not me, we’ve foresee this coming a mile away, however, there are still those who will FIGHT against all odds to defend this man, the excuse makers, the sabergooner, the sandy lovers and sluR__s, it’s a shame that some fans of the mets have become more fans of his more than the team just because they wanna prove a stupid theory of moneyballin who hasn’t won anything to be perfect. Now instead of trying to win, we’re worrying about draft picks, waiting for minor leaguers to save the franchise and talks about being patient while not doing anything AT ALL to improve the team. at some point, these so called mets fans have to come to the realization that the team will not win anything with SA as GM.
• Petey January 28, 2013 at 8:59 am

  $63 dollars to watch the David Wright and the Flushing Bisons???
• Peter January 28, 2013 at 9:10 am

  Select, Copy, and paste same time next year.
• DrDooby January 28, 2013 at 9:11 am

  “Boy, you´re not kidding” as our beloved former Manager Jeff Torborg used to say.

  Again,this very much remains a work in progress.
  It´s rather difficult cutting cost, improving the farm system, filling the structural void at catcher and yet improving the major league roster at the same time.

  What the Mets basically need are at least two new fulltime starting outfielders while hoping that you can patch one spot together with what is already here. That´s a structural need. And Scott Hairston certainly wasn´t going to be the answer. Right now, the Mets have more than a handful of platoon type / backup outfielders / Quadruple A type fillers / modest prospects / suspects on their roster. It´s arguably one of the worst if not the worst groups in the game.
  Looking at the farm system, there´s no immediate solution on the horizon either. Just more of the same over the next year or two if you add 2nd tier prospects such as Lagares or Den Dekker to the current mix.

  The only bright side in all of this outfield mess is a) the clean payroll slate for 2014, combined with a rather deep group of solid (though not excellent) outfielders and b) a pretty deep farm system at the mid & lower levels that will be more advanced and tradeable a year from now. So, it won´t take a genius to fix those two gapping holes in all likelihood by next winter. Though I´m afraid that the cost will be steep anyway – be it in terms of a free agent deal or two or a trade that will cost the Mets significant young talent.

  Being where they are right now, a major trade wouldn´t have made a lot of sense. The major league ready pieces are needed for the turnaround. How does trading, say, Harvey or Wheeler for an outfielder make any sort of sense ? It doesn´t.
  And at the same time, prospects such as Michael Fulmer or Domingo Tapia and several others are too far away from the majors to realistically anchor a trade package for a significant outfielder right now.

  So, basically, it´s Michael Bourn at a bargain (and hopefully not at the price of losing the 2013 1st round pick) or this rather ugly unit.

  That said, Cowgill and Brown are intriguing enough to feel comfortable that they won´t be a downgrade vs. the collective production of at least Hairston & Bay at a fraction of the cost. Still, we´re talking about keeping a fringe status quo intact here.
  • srt January 28, 2013 at 9:30 am

    This, in a nutshell.

    It appears from that comment SA made about if Hairston was still available after Upton was traded…..that maybe the Mets were trying to work out a trade with the D’Backs for Upton.
    - Holding off on signing Hairston depending on how those talks went.
  • Alex68 January 28, 2013 at 9:33 am

    That said, Cowgill and Brown are intriguing enough to feel comfortable that they won´t be a downgrade vs. the collective production of at least Hairston & Bay at a fraction of the cost. Still, we´re talking about keeping a fringe status quo intact here”

    You’ve got to be kidding me… Those 2 are 2 PO’s… as bad as bay was for us how can you seriously say that those 2 will not be a downgrade? They will not hit 20 HR combined!!!!!!!
    But hey, it’s all about the money right? Keep saving it for the wilpons, don’t add it to the payroll because either way we’re gonna suck right? Amazing and embarrasing how people keep buying SA’s crap
    • DrDooby January 28, 2013 at 9:50 am

      Cowgill & Brown have both hit well at AAA and hit for pretty solid power in their minor league careers. Both have done very well vs. LHP but haven´t had nearly as much success vs. RHP.
      Pretty much platoon outfielders.
      Hairston & Bay combined for replacement level caliber production in 2012 and will be replaced by two younger players who look like replacement level players.
      Scott Hairston – for all his nice HR pop – had a .300 OBP. Jeff Franceour & Rod Barajas also hit for some power but weren´t exactly impact players either because they didn´t get on base.
      Again, basically, Cowgill & Brown will have to combine for the very modest combined “production” of Bay & Hairston of 2012 to keep the mediocre status quo.

      I like the two additions because there´s some upside that both might do better than expected. However, neither of the two should and in all likelihood will ever be a starting outfielder for a team that wants to contend. So, at best, we´re talking about possibly finding a platoon partner for Nieuwenhuis / Duda / Valdespin / Baxter / Den Dekker going foward.
      • Alex68 January 28, 2013 at 10:23 am

        You know who also hit well in the minors? Butch Huskey and Fred Lewis….
• K Maxx January 28, 2013 at 9:15 am

  We should have gotten Anthony Gose instead of Syndergaard. Last thing the Mets needed was another impressive righthanded starter that we have plenty of. He never goes after what we really need. Worst part is nothing in free agency as far as OF next year either, nothing looming on the farm, same ole resistance to trading minors to fill needs. That all adds up to 2014 being in the flusher too.
  • DrDooby January 28, 2013 at 9:34 am

    Regardless of whether Gose was even available along with D´Arnaud (from what I read it was either Arencibia and Gose or D´Arnaud and one of the high upside arms, Syndergaard or Sanchez), in a rebuilding you always have to go after “BPA” (best player available) and not need.

    It´s similar to the draft where at least in the first couple of rounds, you don´t draft for need but instead go after the best available talent. If, say, in 2013, the best talents at the Mets spot are a RHP or a 3bman, they better go after them and not after an outfielder that ranks well below, just because the need is much bigger.

    Once you shift gears again into shortterm mode, you target need. The Mets aren´t there yet. So, entering 2013 with this rag tag team of an outfield isn´t such a problem.
    It´s a structural issue that eventually needs to be adressed. Hopefully before 2014.
    • K Maxx January 28, 2013 at 9:48 am

      Understood, but this isn’t the draft, it was a trade whose goal was to improve the team. Maybe Arencibia and Gose was the way to go. Both players are already in the majors and you fill two glaring needs for the 2013 team and beyond in exchange for our reigning Cy Young. Two prospects like all prospects are risks. We gave up Dickey for a caouple of lottery tickets. A little more certainty would have been better.

      Obviously, no foresight was prevalent on Sandy’s part otherwise he would know the outfield market will be even drier than this Winter’s a year from now.

      Additionally Gose and Syndergaard are practically ranked interchangeably depending on who you go to, and of the two one is in the majors and the other is in Single-A and still far from a sure thing..
      • DrDooby January 28, 2013 at 10:09 am

        Arencibia is a league average C who already will be entering his 3rd or 4th season in the majors. D´Arnaud has significantly higher potential and is under control for at least the full 6+ years. It´s obvious that D´Arnaud was the better choice in the Mets´ position as a non-contender in 2013. If you were looking for the Mets to contend in 2013, then Arencibia probably would have been the better choice. In fact, keeping RA Dickey would then have been the right call.

        Syndergaard & Gose being ranked close to each other in spite of Gose already having reached the majors shows the potential of Syndergaard. Maybe he can headline a major trade package for a true impact outfielder – better than Gose right now- a year or two from now. Or anchor the Mets rotation by 2016. Or tear his labrum and never be heard of by June, of course.

        In any case, rebuilding means that shortterm needs take a back-seat. That´s exactly what has happened this winter. Michael Bourn would certainly help. But he comes with a significant risk & pricetag as well.
        • K Maxx January 28, 2013 at 10:31 am

          I’ll agree to disagree, because your points are as valid and we simply see this differently. But as far as the short term hit for a better longterm outlook, I’m not sure I agree there either. How long is the short term? It’s already been three years under construction and much work remains to be done, particularly in the outfield. Even if that were to be addressed in the draft, you are still talking about 3-4 years away, and Nimmo has yet to advance past short season ball putting him just as further away. That short term hit is becoming a longterm reality and that concerns me. We are moving at a snail’s pace and the attention to stark organizational needs has been lacking.
    • TX January 28, 2013 at 10:15 am

      In the same year that Posey was drafted, Houston made a stretch pick with the number 10 pick to grab Jason Castro, because they had an organizational need at the C position. Castro was a 4 year college guy who they thought could be rushed up to fill a spot on the major league level. Injuries have hampered him, but he’s proven to be adequate, at best. Maybe he can blossom a little more and be something slightly above average, but considering what else was available at that pick, the stretching for a positional need was not a smart decision, at all.
• Metfan Lou January 28, 2013 at 9:20 am

  Of course there’s nothing left on the shelf. You went to the supermarket five minutes before the store closed before the big blizzard. What did you expect T-Bones to fill the meat section. Stale bread and sour milk is all that’s left. I thought all was rosy after the Wilpons won their court case and did the refinancing and don’t forget the 20 suckers they got to invest in the team too. A FAN BOYCOTT! Nothing less will do. I feel sorry for the players but only empty seats will force an action. And I me thousands and thousands of empty seats. Taking a great team in a great city with a great history and running it into the ground is criminal and to me it all started when they built that disgusting Citi Field as a homage to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Disgusting and P…..s me off to no end!!
  • taskmaster4450 January 28, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Ah yes. Havent heard the fan boycott in a while. A intelligent move when dealing with billionaires.

    Here is a little fact to burst your bubble. The Wilpons have assets to outlast any boycott. If the fans turn away in droves, they simply keep lowering payroll to the $50M-$60M level and remain profitable. With the money coming in from national tv contracts plus what SNY pays, they will be able to hold onto the team.

    Just accept that Jeff Wilpon will be the owner of your beloved team for a long time because that is what the reality of the situation is.
    • ifthevansrockin January 28, 2013 at 9:42 am

      absolutely. Once they got the debt under control, they can go into bare minimum mode. Pretty much how the Pirates, Marlins, etc. stayed in (profitable) business all these years with minimal attendance.
    • Metfan Lou January 28, 2013 at 10:00 am

      Disagree. Boycotts do work. When one airline raises fares too much and other airlines don’t follow then that airline backs down. If the Mets continue to spiral downward into a Triple AAA team it affects attendance at other parks. And those owners will be upset at a loss of money. The owners are an old boys club but if you mess with their money they get upset. So what you are saying is that MLB thinks it’s okay to have elite teams like the Braves, Nats and Phillies in the division and then two whipping boys in the Marlins and Mets to get fat on. I don’t think so and when those guys get behind closed doors I bet all hell breaks loose after they belt back a couple of Jack over ice. Do you even think the Mets will be on a game of the week knowing when Buck and McCarver pan Citi Field and only see a few thousand fans that that won’t have an impact? A fan boycott is the only weapon the Mets fans have now.
      • taskmaster4450 January 28, 2013 at 10:47 am

        Tell me how well boycotts work in Miami. Have you seen their attendance? Yet Loria is still there.

        How about in Minnesota when Pohlad didnt want to spent money?

        And comparing an airline to a passion doesnt work. How many people are loyal to one airline? Sure they have their frequent flier miles but do most care whether it is Delta or American? Not in the least. But baseball. What, are Mets fans going to go watch the Yankees? Phillies? Dbacks? No. Are they going to go without baseball? Not likely either. Are they going to stay home and watch the games? Perhaps but that feeds the same hand.

        So no, boycotts will not work when you have a billionaire family with enough assets to outlast any financial downturn. Losing $20M a years, the Wilpons could cover a decade of those loses with one Manhattan building (well maybe two depending upon the size).

        So I applaud you and will watch you lead the charge of total boycott of the NYMets. I presume you will have to come on here to get the results since a true boycott means no SNY in addition to Citi Field.
        • Metfan Lou January 28, 2013 at 11:09 am

          Well as two loyal Met fans we’ll disagree on this one but one question to ponder. Will low attendance be due to poor baseball or a fan boycott. I suspect a little of both but for a boycott to be effective it will have to include a boycott of Mets merchandise too. I just got two new hats for Christmas so that is the end of my purchases even if I wanted something real bad.
• ifthevansrockin January 28, 2013 at 9:37 am

  The $ amount for Hairston was not likely the issue (since he is getting not a hell of a lot more than minimum wage). More telling is the other part of Sandy’s comment, about Hairston wanting a FT job, and the mets (rightly so) not being willing to commit it to him.
• Justin January 28, 2013 at 9:37 am

  How is this OF any worse then what they had last year with Bay-Torres-Duda? now they can give some young guys time to see what they have…

  gotta remember, they arent competing this year so why waste money on veterans that will be in decline when the Mets get good….ok, IF the Mets get good
  • TRS86 January 28, 2013 at 9:48 am

    Very true, it remains to be seen if they made it any better but chances are statistically it can’t be much worse.
• Jon January 28, 2013 at 9:38 am

  They are not billionaires and would not be surprising once Selig is gone that their SNY partners either Time Warner or Comcast push them out of SNY thus cutting off that important income srream. It would hinder their ability to retain the team. Thus anew ownership group would be brought in.
  • ifthevansrockin January 28, 2013 at 9:43 am

    how exactly are they going to push them out of something they own?
  • TJ January 28, 2013 at 9:52 am

    Jon,
    Unfortunately, this ownership is going no where, like it or not. They are unquestionably collective billionnaires, even conservative analysts would agree on this. Their remaining problem is that since they ran the team into the group financially in order to weather the Madoff threat to ownership, they need to fix the “brand”, whether they are a long shot in 2013 or not. No one is going to believe anything that this ownership or Alderson says, they need to take actions. By getting a competent CF/leadoff hitter, which looks to be either Bourn at a reasonable price or Crisp at a reasonable price in prospects, plus a legit bullpen arm or two with closing upside (Brian Wilson anyone?), they can at least show the fan base they are trying to assemble a decent 2013 team with a punchers chance. Failure to do that will just continue to alienate an already diminished and disgruntled fan base.
• Jon January 28, 2013 at 9:44 am

  Dr Dooby – disagree . Gose is only 22. It wouldn’t be need but a better option and he may project higher than the pitcher we got anyway.
  That said, Toronto wanted to keep him anyway and ended up keeping their best pitching prospect as well. Good trade for both teams
  • DrDooby January 28, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Gose was more likely to help the Jays in 2013 (i.e. an “all in” sort of season) than Syndergaard.
    And I have no idea whether the Mets even had the option of Gose instead of Syndergaard without losing D´Arnaud in the package either. One can make a valid case for both Gose & Synd. – and the deal would have been just as fine with Gose in there imho. Still, Gose probably should spend at least another half a season at AAA himself, so he wouldn´t have solved any immediate issues in the Mets OF either.

    Again, considering how many solid outfielders are free agents next winter, it doesn´t take much creativity to fill out a potential outfield alright if you´re willing to spend 20 to 30 million $ on it annually in 2014. Payroll restraints won´t be an issue anymore a year from now. Even by signing, say, Cory Hart and Shin Soo Choo to Victorino & Swisher type contracts, next winter, the Mets 2014 payroll still doesn´t crack even 90 million $. Or Hunter Pence & Jacoby Ellsbury or Carlos Gomez and Nelson Cruz for that matter. Or trading for Dexter Fowler and Josh Willingham instead. Lots of possibly ways to adress this. And the focus should shift more towards the shortterm.
• Jon January 28, 2013 at 9:48 am

  They don’t own the whole thing – only 60 percent . Given their lack of cashflow, huge obligations to banks and dwindling team they may have to tap SNY more. They already are to get the extra financing. Without lord Bud watching out for them and “baseballs best interest ” they could get squeezed very easily.
  • taskmaster4450 January 28, 2013 at 10:05 am

    Which makes them majority stock holders meaning that the other two partners do not have enough votes to push them out.

    And the Mets finances are turning around. They lost $23M (or so) last season and have the cash to cover any loss this season (if there is one) because of the debt refinancing. Cash flow was improved by going with a lower interest rate.

    Plus in terms of their wealth, all their assets are appreciating in value. Everyone knows SNY is exploding. Manhattan real estate is going upwards as well. With the sale of the Dodgers, all teams increased in value. And, their debt load, with each passing month is being paid down.

    So again, like it or not, the Wilpons have more than enough assets to outlive any boycott.
• Marco January 28, 2013 at 12:03 pm

  Let’s be honest, Mets fans: the Wilpons and Sandy Anderson have decided that Long Island does not deserve a major league team. The sleazy deceptive and shameless way they have approached this new season is a insult to the base. A boycott opening day will send a powerful message.