As you know, I’ve attached so many links on that subject. It’s not that they are told not to swing on the first pitch but to indeed laying off pitches if not in a good hitting zone. That has caused a lot Met players to take called first strikes, put them behind in the count 0-1, and then have to swing defensively.

The problem with that was with what Bob Ojeda talked about. I attached many links to which Bob Ojeda first said in May that he, as a former MLB pitcher, was picking up the signal that the Mets were telegraphing to opposing pitchers that they were not being aggresive on first pitches and that it was going to work against them for the reason just stated. Then, in August he touched on the subject again explaining exactly why the run production had gone down.

I had also attached several different links pertaining specifically to Davis coming out of his slump in which it was quoted by Terry Collins he told Ike it was OK to be more aggressive on the first pitch. If I recall properly, it was noted that this went against Dave Hudgens wanting Ike to be more disciplined on the first pitch since he swings so often at them (as you pointed out with those stats).

I do not have the time right now to go review all the numerous articles written on the subject and then review each of them to find my reply with the links, but they are there. If you’re curious to see if I misunderstood something, of course, please feel free to do so as well and let me know what you found.

Then you understand how egos, need to be accepted, and flawed memories warp our perception of reality. How we’ll say things just to look like we’re connected to the event in question.

How we’ll offer a tidbit of “information” to make ourselves look like insiders despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. How we’ll absolutely convince ourselves these tidbits are true.

No, I never played the game, but I have participated in the human experience. And since Ike had been an aggressive first pitch swinger since high school, Terry Collins did tell him to go back to the approach he felt more comfortable with.

I had posted months ago articles which quoted Collins and Hudgens about that move but since so many things have been written since, there are just too many web pages to browse through to find them. We would have to go through MMO for late June early July to see the links I attached.

So that’s why I mentioned his psyche being affected by not being allowed to approach his at-bat the way he was emotionally comfortable with as one of the MANY things going wrong at the same time. His turn around did happen after Terry Collins told him it was OK to return being more aggressive on the first pitch – even though the stats said he never stopped doing that – so that is why I suggest having the weight of knowing he was going against the instructions of his batting coach and manager (and front office) lifted for one so young was a factor in this as well.

But you never played the game. You have no connection to professional sports. If we apply your standards equally, you shouldn’t regard your statements at all.

I am not saying that there are no psychological factors. But, most of what we see and read and say are not special insight into a player’s mind. It is insight into ourselves and our desperate need to think we have 1 clue as to what goes on inside the clubhouse.

A person gets a hit not a stat!
Maybe if you watched baseball on a field as opposed to watching it on your computer you would know these things.

Whitey Herzog and the Cards in the 80′s would like to have a talk with you in the back alley!

Using speed doesn’t make you a weak offense thats determined by how many runs your able to score…

All using bunts and speed means is you not RELYING on the HR to get all yor runs or just sitting back WAITING for the big hit your producing runs in other more creative ways…

I said go beyond the stats and to look at the human element. If you believe a young player’s psyche cannot be affected knowing he is going against instructions of his manager and coaches instead knowing he has the backing of them, well, that means the game is played by robots.

What has been said about Ike Davis, among other things, of not listening to instructions? Did it not rattle him?

http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2012/09/mets_ike_davis_rattled_by_trad.html

Ignoring the human element when it comes to others is impossible. We can’t ignore our own sensitivities, motivations, fears, confidence levels, intimidations or try to be someone that we aren’t – but baseball players can? Some are less inhibited than others, granted, but that comes with age and maturity. Ike Davis is only 25. His confidence level was down during his slump. If one thinks I still made up out the point about one’s psyche and the affect it has on a person out of thin air, well…, there is nothing more that could be discussed.

You completely pulled that out of thin air. Your answer makes us much sense as saying Ike found a good acupuncturist.

Ya, I know. that is what I’ve been saying. Glad to see you learned.

“But as we also know, Davis had always been an aggressive first pitch hitter and was taking more pitches.”

No, you are completely wrong. and you constantly repeat this lie. You are verifiably wrong. And it has been explained to you many times.

Davis was not taking more pitches. Let me repeat that: Ike Davis was not taking more pitches.

You are right that Ike is an aggressive swinger. and since you and I know that, it is a pretty safe bet every pitcher in the league knew it. So, what they did was start throwing this thing called a curveball. They did it more frequently on the first pitch to Ike than before. We know this. the game logs confirm it. The game logs also confirm Ike was not taking them. He was swinging away at them.

“So along with a change in mechanics, Davis also got the OK from Terry Collins to go back to what made him comfortable – knowing he could swing first pitch if he thought he could. When one sees a pitch they believe they can turn on, one should swing at it for often they might not ever see “their pitch” in that at bat or even get a chance at another good pitch at all.”

No. documented facts prove you wrong. Game logs show Ike started taking those first pitch curveballs. This increased the number of fast balls he saw.

Guess what kind of pitch Ike most frequently puts over the wall.

“When one sees a pitch they believe they can turn on, one should swing at it for often they might not ever see “their pitch” in that at bat or even get a chance at another good pitch at all.”

and there in lies the problem, Ike was swinging at pitches he obviously couldn’t turn on.

In other words, he referenced the lack of production of a pitcher vs a typical #2 hitter.

“Sacrifice and stolen base over rated?”

Yup

“The 1965 Dodgers became world champions specifically relying on the sacrifice and stolen base to generate the little offense they could due to such poor hitting.”

I’m pretty sure the Hall of Famers on the rotation had a little something to do with it.

But, yes, a reliance on bunting and stolen bases is a sign of a weak offense.

And 1 example does not disprove a mountain of evidence. that is called an outlier.

“Or, what about Bill James who said: It has never been my philosophy that including stolen bases in an offense was futile”

Again, you are creating a strawman. I didn’t say futile, I said over rated. Mainly because people for a long time didn’t take into account caught stealing. also, people tend to get caught up in how flashy stolen bases are and ignore deficiencies on the base stealer’s game.

“And if stats are a valuable aid in evaluating talent, why Bill James’ answer to the following question about which minor leaguers would best help the Red Sox?”

I have no idea why his answer contradicts what you claimed I said. First off, what is Bill James’ role with the BoSox? Is he their minor league talent evaluator? To my knowledge, he mainly focuses on the big club.

also, since minor leagues focus on development and not pure production (unlike the majors), statistical analysis isn’t given as much weight. Not that stats aren’t valuable, just not as valuable as they are on the big clubs.

“Well, as mentioned before, when players, managers and coaches begin explaining a player’s production – or lack of production – in terms of statistics rather than not only how he is performing but how he is being utilized in terms of in-game strategy and the consequences”

Not their job. managers should have an understanding of advanced stats and strategy, but in terms of figuring out why a player is having problems, him and his coaching staff should be focusing on things like mechanics. Again, you are confusing issues.

Good thing we got all those great players in return eh?

A team with 10 Hits and no runs loses to a team than has one hit and one run!

You said you could tell me what happened in that game based on the numbers…
I see you couldn’t tell me how they won what events were involved but you still think the numbers tell the story don’t you?

All you saber rattlers can now discuss this among yourselves!
LOL