6
2013
MMO Fan Shots: I Hope This Means The Mets Are Back In The Steak Aisle
An article by 
DrDooby says:
Omar Minaya wasn’t a great GM.
However, he also wasn’t a terrible GM.
He did what he was asked to do, i.e. build a quick fix winner, while swimming in cash and having two inexpensive young building blocks in Wright & Reyes.
Yes, he did at the cost of future payrolls – but he couldn’t foresee the collapse of Bernie Madoff’s scheme either I suppose, so while the 2nd half of his tenure was filled with dubious contracts, he thought he had the money.
Also, the farm system he inherited was terrible.
He built up a nice Latin American talent pipeline that will benefit the Mets for years to come. He did underestimate how long it´d take for that talent to get here though.
Likewise he ignored high upside prospects in the draft and went for low risk – but often low ceiling signings. Thus your current 2013 Mets roster, filled with lots of solid young players without much upside – save for Matt Harvey, a college pick that looks great and Jon Niese, one of the rare HS pitchers picked under Minaya´s watch.
The role players he added to the major league roster initially worked out well – then he lost his Midas touch and got mostly crap to fill out an aging roster during the 2nd half of his tenure – save for R.A. Dickey, of course.
I hate dividing the world in black & white, good or evil, with us or against us. In Minaya´s case, the truth is somewhere in between. He was neither the architect of longterm Mets greatness nor the village idiot who spent the rest of the Wilpons´ fortunes.
Hotstreak says:
Jeff Wilpon has a big sign in his office;
“Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Refinanced Dad”
Sandy Alderson has a big sign in his office.
“Retirement Days, 270 and Counting as Mission Accomplished”
Fred Wilpon has a sign that says:
“A Billion Dollar Legacy”
Scott Boras has a sign that says;
”I hope this means the Mets are back in the steak aisle”
Short Shots:
Damaja referred to MetsBlog as the Book of Matthew in one of the comments today. I must admit I nearly choked on my bagel this morning when I read it. I reference MetsBlog all the time, but now I’m strongly considering using the words “According to the Book of Matthew” for all future references. I kid, I kid…
Several readers and writers wanted to know why MMO is never recognized for any annual Mets Police awards (The Mazzys). The only thing I could think of is that he’s pissed off because we still occasionally post images with Mets players wearing black uniforms or the hybrid caps. And that we didn’t believe they had anything to do with the Mets’ decision to bring Banner Day back and the team confirmed it. No, but seriously, our community here is the best award any site can have. 500+ comments a day or a Mazzy? Hmm, that’s a tough one.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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History will be very kind to Minaya ten years from now. He planted many good seeds that are only now sprouting.
Maybe not steak, most likely poultry.
Mets Police is always trying to sell you stuff and keeps the site going to supplement his income. He can’t write and has no business calling himself a blogger. I wouldn’t be too concerned about being snubbed by him, It’s an awful blog about nothing.
Shannon is just a big old fat guy who doesn’t know anything about baseball and finances so he defers to Cerrone and Megdal on everything. That’s what he always says. LOL Comes off as a phony to me and is a legend in his own mind.
“He did what he was asked to do, i.e. build a quick fix winner, while swimming in cash and having two inexpensive young building blocks in Wright & Reyes.:
There’s this misconception out there that Omar was told to build a “quick fix” team that sacrificed the farm system and that he was told to spend a lot of money. That isn’t true. Sure, the Wilpons wanted to turn the team around, but Omar actually had to talk the Wilpons into opening up the purse strings and spend-spend-spend, which he did on so many older injury-prone veterans. That was a quick fix, sure. But it came at the heavy price of underperforming contracts in later years, lots of key players on the DL, and a neglected farm system.
But I do agree that overall Omar is an average GM. Not terrible. But not good either. Just meh.
Alderson may ultimately end up to be meh or worse. But it’s too soon to judge him. And he’s not had nearly the resources to work with that Omar had.
And beware of any “steak” Boras has to sell. Some of his steak in the past only gave the Mets mad cow disease.
LoL
Boras is a POS snake-oil salesman who lives off the sweat of hard working gifted athletes who dont know enough of the business-world to be their own agent and not hand over 20% to that charlatan.
I hope theres a special place in hell for him to boil with the other sports agents who try to squeeze every last million out of the owners, and ultimately, the fans.
I truly hope the Mets stick to their guns & never sign a Boras client.
What we will never know is what strategy Minaya would have employed and what high end players would have been drafted if the Wilpon’s weren’t so buddy buddy with Bud Selig and would not allow Minaya go overslot. Minaya’s biggest strength as GM was supposed to be his scouting ability but he never really had the opportunity to go after the best player available.
That’s inaccurate. First, Omar went over slot with first round picks at least a couple of times when he was GM. I believe both Pelfrey and Harvey were over-slot signings. Second, part of the problem was that Omar had relinquished so many high draft picks to begin with by signing many free agents without regard to gaining draft picks back through arbitration. So there weren’t that many draft picks to go over-slot on! Third, Omar’s stated objective when he first came aboard was to funnel his funds to Latin American signings. So a de-emphasis on the draft and more emphasis on Latin America was part of his strategy.
In Omar’s tenure he was 2nd to last in MLB draft spending, 3rd to last in IFA spending ( where no comp picks are sacrificed )
please stop embarrasing yourself.
Omar is better at recognizing talent than the lawyer and any of his Ivy League friends.
based on what the farm produced over 7 years of his tenure, that is certainly debatable.
would i like to compare Omar’s draft record and IFA record with Depo?
If Omar was second to last in draft spending (link?) it was because the Mets had so few early round picks due to Omar signing so many free agents and he didn’t get the picks back through arbitration. That was his fault.
You should stop making a fool of yourself!
That doesnt explain how the Yankees, who routinely sign free-agents, were ranked much higher than the mets…
when it comes to draft spending, from 2005-2011, there was no cap. and often much money was spent not just on the 1st round, but on supplemental picks, 2nd rounders, 3rd rounders as well.
If you take out the 1st round, ( where the mets lost a few picks ), they STILL rank in the bottom 3rd in terms of draft spending.
And Not allowing your GM to even offer arbitration to players for various reasons ( Wagner in 2009 ) also cost Omar some draft picks.
the thing about the mets…is that historically since the late 80′s they have always been cheap on the draft…the same with IFA spending…
the one common demoninator is the wilpons.
I’ll say it again: :”… and he didn’t get the picks back through arbitration.” Do you understand what that means? It means the players Omar signed were too old and risky to ever offer arbitration to. He only did it a few tines. Maybe once or twice. However, GMs like Epstein and Cashman do it all the time. Cashman did it with Swisher and Soriano this year. So they get draft picks back. That’s how teams who sign free agents are able to compensate for their loss of a draft pick. Because they get other picks back.
That explains how teams like the Red Sox signed a lot of free agents and still maintained a healthy draft.
And don’t say Omar was barred from doing it. He was only barred from doing it with Wagner. One player.
And again, where is your link to back up your claim. I bet when you factor in the rounds that the Mets picked they do not rank so low in spending.
And where is a link about the IFA spending?
Omar is average at recognizing talent. Just average.
The jury is still out on Alderson & Company.
One thing to keep in mind is that rarely a GM is the one sitting in the stands and actually scout players – save for maybe a high 1st round pick, the most expensive Int. signing or a key major league trade target.
Otherwise, the GM basically is in charge of digesting information handed to him by the scouts, cross-checkers and assistants and moderating the process or making a final call after lengthy discussions of a matter.
So, Omar´s “eye” for talent probably didn´t play much of a role – neither in a positive or negative way – as the Mets´ GM. His administrative & philosophical (Baseball) skills played a much bigger role and selecting the right person for the right assisting job.
I believe everyone agrees that Omar was a good scout. Whether he was a good GM, probably is a very different matter. Based on what he did with the Mets – his brief tenure with the Expos really cannot be judged based on the circumstances of looming contraction – his final Grade is “fair”. Built a shortterm winner. Nice. Rebuilt the farm from terrible to average, though I´m not sure the development method of rushing the best prospects to “challenge” them at higher levels to “prepare” them for the NY pressure was the optimal way to go. Still, outcome pretty solid. Got several low key major leaguers that worked early. Nice. Got several low key major leaguers that flopped later. Bad. Got RA Dickey. Great (and somewhat lucky as well because nobody – including RA himself – didn´t expect this outcome). Spent way too much money on non-productive pieces or overpaid for merely solid players. Bad – and worsened when the money well of Uncle Bernie dried up. Now, was Omar a great public speaker ? Certainly not. However, from what I´ve gathered, he was a very gentle and respectful person who didn´t “big league” anyone, so his personal interacting skills were outstanding. All in all, the overall grade for his tenure probably should be a B- or a C+.
Dooby, I agree with you and would give Omar a mediocre grade myself. He wasn’t great but he wasn’t terrible either. I’m glad they let him go though and think they should have done it sooner. What I find comical are some who are trying to resurrect his reputation by making him out to be better than he was. He was deeply flawed.
Some folks apparently only know the categories ” outstanding” or “terrible”.
Neither fits with Omar Minaya’s tenure as Mets GM. Which was a mixed bag – and figures to have lasting effects, both positive and negative.
And – for the time being – Sandy Alderson’s brief tenure cannot be labeled ” a huge success” or ” gigantic failure” either. In fact, considering the task and situation, it’ll take a couple of more years to evaluate both the process and the outcome. Though the general direction, i.e. rebuilding instead of constant quick fixing like for the past 20+ years before Alderson, is the correct choice – be it mostly financially motivated or a change in philosophy.
Of course, ultimately, results will need to be there. Three more seasons of 70 to 75 wins annually certainly won’t be made up with nice prospect rankings. So, while patience is needed, at some point the future will have to arrive. And the ETA was always going to be 2014. So by then – and especially going forward, this thing will need to be turned around, so this finally is a winning franchise again. The 2014 through 2020 Mets all need to finish above .500 each year and reach the playoffs 5 times out of 7 seasons to make this worthwhile undertaking.
I have to say both Dr Dooby and Metro12 are two of the most objective and agenda free posters to hit this site in a long time.
Fonzie13 – if by objective you mean sandy apologists ? than yes u are right
No they’re both objective. Neither one are Sandy apologists. Objectivity! You should try it sometime.
Are you like the civil activist police on MMO? I swear all I ever see you comment on is 1. Calling everyone you agree with objective, 2. Jumping into the pool in any thread about Minaya, 3. An obsession with Alderson’s tenure in Oakland.
When the Wilpons took over as majority owners it was obvious Omar was told to go out and spend and get big name stars right away. That meant giving Pedro Martinez more money plus the extra year he was seeking that no team other than I think St. Louis was willing to agree to.
Pedro’s contribution to the Mets was minimal as far as performance was concerned (one and a half seasons and that was basically it) and the four year commitment in itself was ludicrous in both terms of baseball and finance, but his contribution to what his signing meant- the image wanting to build a winner – was what the Wilpons wanted most and got. Sort of like the original direction of the 1962 Mets – go for old veteran names to get a following rather than youngsters.
But what Omar did after that – Beltran, Wagner, Delgado was money well spent for the time as was following that up a few seasons later with Santana and Krod among others.
The best GM? Probably not – for the test of a great general manager is putting together great clubs without the advantage of virtually unlimited resources. Could he have made better moves than quick fill ins like Alou, El Duque, LoDuca, Valentine and others? Probably. Was the Met team he assembled for 2006 built for the future – definitely not. But did he not have the foresight to think of rebuilding down the road for the years ahead? Absolutely. We can now see that he was serious about the future as well with the young players on the parent club and the prospects we have today.
Many credit Sandy for having a vision to rebuild from within to plan for the future without taking into consideration that a financial mess necessitated the Wilpons to hire him to begin with and he thus stripped the team of all expensive players, regardless of how well they were producing and replacing them with young prospects to help achieve that. That is not a vision but a road taken out of financial necessity. Omar, on the other hand, did not have the burden of financial necessity on his shoulders so what he did with the farm system was much more a planned baseball strategy than anything Sandy devised.
Not true, Joey D. I heard Omar say himself that he had to convince the Wilpons to spend big. He had to convince them to open up the wallet and sign big free agents,. That was Omar’s strategy. The Wilpons of course agreed and ultimately signed off on Omar’s plans, but it was Omar’s strategy from the beginning.
Hi Metro,
This was the first I heard about that and considering that Omar continued to spend big for five years (KRod in 2009) it would then mean he had to continue convincing Fred and Jeff to allow him to do so.
Could you locate anything on the web to indicate this is not what the Wilpon’s foresaw when they hired Omar? There is every indication that was not the case according to this release on Mets.com when the announcement of Omar’s hiring was made – which shows he was given total and complete autonomy on what he wanted to do.
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040930&content_id=876515&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym
First, having complete autonomy never meant one has an open wallet. Heck, it doesn’t even mean that for the Yankees, disregarding the fact that Cashman never had complete autonomy anyway since the Steinbrenners went ahead and signed Sheffiled and A-Rod without Cashman’s approval,. Complete autonomy means that the owners won’t interfere with the pure “baseball” decisions, and Omar had complete autonomy for most of the years he was Mets GM. I think some was taken away from him only after the incident with Bernazard. There probably isn’t a GM in baseball who has an unlimited budget, with the exception of maybe Coletti, lol.
Second, it is widely known that Omar had to convince the Wilpons to jettison Leiter and spend more money by signing Pedro. He had to sell the Wilpons on Pedro, contrary to what you think. Here is an article that references this:
“If we were gonna pay Al $8 million, why can’t we go out and get the best guy for another $4 million more?” Minaya says, repeating the reasoning he used to sell the Wilpons on chasing Martinez. “A guy who’s not only going to impact your team, a Hall of Fame guy, but a guy who’s gonna impact the brand. And the key was, Pedro wanted to come here.” Minaya elides the fact that Leiter’s contract would have been for a single season and Martinez’s ended up being for four years, a difference of a mere $45 million.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/11260/index2.html
Third, as I said, I’ve heard and read often that Omar had to sell the Wilpons on the idea of spending more money in general. The payroll had shrunk right before Omar came aboard., Here is one reference I’ve found to this:
In 2004, hope seems to turn to gold when Omar Minaya returned to the Mets as General Manager. Minaya seemed to have the ear of Wilpon and convinced him that the team had to compete, salary wise, with their cross-town rivals, the New York Yankees. He came out of the box with the free agent signing of P Pedro Martinez and OF Carlos Beltran.
http://mets360.com/?p=12943
As for Omar’s continuing to spend after 2005, there wasn’t much convincing to do after 2006 and the Mets made the NLCS. Ownership by then believed in Omar’s plan. That’s why they extended him, despite many fans saying it was the wrong thing to do. It wasn’t until the Perez and Castillo contracts and the Bernazard incident that the Wilpons started to change their view of Omar. But even until the end, it was rumored that the Wilpons would try to keep him in the organization in another role when they hired a new GM.
Omar had complete autonomy?
I guess Omar and Theo’s deal to trade Manny for Lastings and Heillman in 2006 being turned down by the Wilpons for financial reasons proves Omar had unlimited resources and complete authority?
then Omar is left to shop in the garbage bin for a LF…finds Alou on a 1 year 7 mil contract with a 1 year option…
Alou is healthy in the 2nd half, hits .344, provides leadership and the right-handed bat we missed when Nady got traded….
when Omar picks up the option, everyone turns into monday morning QB when Alou gets hurt…
conveiently forgetting that Omar had no other choice for LF in the 06/07 off-season…
unless u think paying Soriano 129 million was a better option than Alou at 7 mil
GTFOH w/ that BS
Omar is the best Met GM since Cashen.
Well at the time the WIlpons said that Omar never really came to them for a decision on that deal….They agree they didn’t like it but it never got to the stage where he asked and they said no.
He might have convinced them if he had made his case but he didn’t
(according to them anyway you take that as you will)
Yes, absolutely, Omar had FULL autonomy when he came aboard — well at least as full as one is going to get in MLB.
Please show proof that it was the Wilpons who nixed any Manny deal and not Omar himself. I never heard of that one before.
Omar had the largest budgets in the NL when he was GM. If he was left to shop in the “bargain bin” then that was Omar’s fault and it says a lot about his inability to handle money.
Alou’s age and history of chronic injuries and DL stints never made him a good option. Anything is better than having someone like that on the DL.
And hey, you GTFOH!
Saying Omar is the best GM since Cashen is a big fat joke. LMFAO!
“Saying Omar is the best GM since Cashen is a big fat joke.”
Name a GM Since Cashen that has been better?
Phillips?
Harazin?
McIlvane?
Hunsicker?
I mean really SINCE cashen Omar has been far better than any of them with Phillips being the closest to Omar as far as having a team be successful…He got to the WS we missed when Beltran took that Curveball…
First off, none of them have been notably good since Cashen. NONE. Second, if you want to rank then, well then I’d put Philips at least higher than Omar because he at least got the Mets to the WS, and he acquired TWO all-star caliber position players while he was GM. I also think that the jury is still out on Alderson.
Now if Harvey and Ike turn into All-Stars, then I might change my tune. But so far, it’s a joke to say Omar is the best since Cashen, since they’ve all been pretty poor.
I guess you forget who helped him do it and how it all stopped the second he left to go to Montreal….
Anything Phillps achieved had a lot to do with Omar being his right hand man through it all!
Once Omar left they never won more than 82 games again until Omar came back.
And I fail to see how Sandy has even a SNIFF at being better than Omar while the win column keeps going down instead of up.
Any success Sandy may have will be due to what he got from Selling off all of Omars’s players not due to any drafting or signings of his own.
But you keep on drinking that Kool Aid….
Metsie, you’re forgetting that the team had been in steady decline ever since 2000 — for two years before Omar left. So it’s not true that it stopped “the second” he left for Montreal. That’s totally false. It stopped in 2001.
Do you have any firm evidence that Omar was a key part of Phillips’ success?
And Omar was only gone for two years. It’s not as if there were long years of losing in between the time he left and the time he came back. There were two. And those teams had a lot of aging starts of them who just weren’t good anymore. Omar wouldn’t have made a difference. The team was in a down cycle then.
Alderson has had just two seasons with the Mets. If he puts together a team that has a long run of success not primed to fail after an initial bump — the way Omar put together his teams — then I might rate that as more successful than Omar.
Any success that Alderson will have will likely be a result of his efforts as well as some from Omar. And that’s ALWAYS the case when a team wins under a GM. That GM benefits from the decisions made by prior regimes as well as his own.
I see you’ve never dropped drinking Omar’s kool-aid!
And Omar left at the end of 2001….So he was there for ONE year of your alleged decline which really was not even CLOSE to the decline Sandy has presided over the last two years…
They won 82 Games in 2001 And what was the difference that made it happen?
Letting Hampton go!
Not a decision Omar would have had much to do with especially if you believe he was all about spending on FA!
Truth is letting Hampton leave is more in line with Sandy’s way of doing things than Omars now isn’t it?
Omar inherited a 71 Win team and got 97 Wins out of it a mere 2 years later….
Sandy got a 79 win team and made t a 7 win one in that same time period.
yeah but… they were right about Hampton. So aren’t you just validating Sandy’s methods?
or are you trying to suggest Hampton didn’t hit a steep decline after 01?
You mean like Steve Phillips, Fred Wilpon and Jim Duquette all saying that Omar had a huge hand in shaping those rosters.
Had the wilpons not been so cheap, we also get robinson cano and ubaldo jiminez…to go along with reyes, nelson cruz…
4 all-star’s from the IFA we found in the 3 years Omar was Asst GM
thats more than any other Met gm has found in 50 plus years combined
please do not embarras yourself any further, just exit left while you have some credibility left..
LOL, you’re calling 12 fewer wins an “alleged” decline? LMFAO! FYI, there has not been a 12-win decline in wins from Omar’s last year (2010) to any of Sandy’s years. The Mets won 79 games in Omar’s last year. And the worst Sandy has done is 74 wins. That’s just 5 fewer wins which is less than the 12 fewer wins from 2000 to 2001. Moreover, Alderson’s worst year still isn’t as bad as the 70 wins under Omar in 2009.
And, no. Hampton wasn’t the big difference between 2000 and 2001. What was the big difference is that Zeile, Fonzie and Ventura all saw drastic declines in production in 2001. Hampton won 15 games in 2000. Appier won 11. I hope you can do the math!
Omar was given a fortune to spend when he got here in 2004. Alderson was given relative peanuts. That’s the big difference between the two. That’s why Omar was able to increase win totals over his first two years.
What else are they going to say about Omar in public. If you noticed, for some reason none of the GMs who ever leave the Mets are ever bad-mouthed for their job performance. Not by the Wilpons, the managers or the other Mets GMs, past or current.
LOL, Omar had the largest budgets in the NL and all you can do is blame the Wilpons for “being cheap” …, you are the one who is embarrassing yourself! But at least it’s funny.
And now you’re trying to give Omar credit for the talent acquired under Phillips. I guess Bernazard and Ricco should get all the credit for Ike and Harvey?
Sorry, but no dice. The Ass’t GM does NOT get the credit for what the GM does unless it’s clear that the Ass’t GM was directly responsible for a player. And that ain’t the case for Omar. Try again.
Actually, it all evens out. As the Asst. GM, Omar was instrumental in acquiring Piazza. Phillips was at an impasse with Dombrowski and Omar came up with the structure of the deal to bring Piazza here, buy making three columns of players and telling Dombrowski to pick one from each column. It was never divulged which players were in which columns or how the columns were created. Phillips mentioned this on Francessa’s show two years ago when he had his weekly spot when Omar’s tenure was coming to an end.
That being said, all the kids Omar is credited for like Ike, Harvey and Niese were all discovered by scouts Phillips hired. Omar had very little to do with them. There are so many moving parts in player acquisitions, it’s almost impossible to specifically attribute the correct party with correct credit, so just like the coach gets fired when the team sucks, the GM lives and dies eith everything. Nature of the beast.
xtreem, I agree. You have to give the GM total credit or total criticism for any acquisition, because if you don’t, then it becomes just a case of cherry picking. If we give Omar credit for some of the players acquired under Philips, should we then charge Omar with the dogs Philips acquired? And what about Daniel Murphy? We know he was recommended to the Mets by Bernazard, so should we then give him the final credit instead of Omar? If you keep doing this, it just become an arbitrary mess.
“they were right about Hampton”
Were they really right about Hampton?
Or was it more like Hampton was wrong about going to Colorado where Pitchers go to die?
Note he went back to an under 4.0 Era when he left there….
Had some pretty good years in Atlanta. And even helped them get to a few Playoffs
SO I don’t really see how they were right about letting him go, Justhis being wrong about where to go to next…
He took the money and it cost him two years and reputation.
Funny how we don’t hear a pep out Scouts ans Assts whenever it’s Sandy getting he credit for Wheeler and d’Arnaud do we?
Nope it’s Sandy’s grand PLAN then….
Not even the half man half woman in the circus has as much duality as some around here do…
Yes 12 fewer wins when you just lost your ACE is not a big number….
Wait to see how many we lose now that Dickey is gone and then we will talk about DECLINE!
LOL, — 12 fewer wins is a big decline. Again, Hampton’s replacement had 11 wins the next year. That’s just 4 fewer than Hampton had in 2000. So Hampton’s leaving only resulted in 4 fewer losses. Bet you won’t see any 12-win declines during Alderson’s tenure!
Yes Metsie, they were right about Hampton. Hampton’s issues stemmed from his control not Colorado. Hampton signed an 8 year deal which means the Mets would be paying him through 2008…
He had a 5.10 ERA in 2001 away from Colorado and a 6.44 ERA in 2002 away from Colorado.
His strikeouts went dramatically down from 1999… altitude doesn’t make a hitters bat touch a ball. His 2003 season doesn’t erase the other 7 years.
Pove it wasn’t colorado related because funny the second he left there the control came back as did his ERA….
Metsie you want me to “prove” Hampton’s struggles weren’t just Colorado? And his road #s aren’t enough for you? What do you want from me? His diary?
2001 away from Colorado: 109IP 125H 16HR 37BB 69K 1.48 WHIP, 5.10 ERA
2002 away from Colorado: 109IP 149H 17HR 56BB 38K 1.88 WHIP, 6.44 ERA
2003 away from Atlanta: 90IP 95H 10HR 37BB 46K 1.45WHIP 4.47ERA
That’s just the first 3 years of an 8 year deal. They were right about him. If it came out that Minaya suggested to Phillips they don’t retain Hampton I bet your story would change.
SO you mean to say you don’t see how pitching at home would make him change his pitching approach that would affect him away as well?
Please Jessup it all went away once he got out of the launchpad….
That place screwed him up…
You’re exactly right. Today people who want to discredit Alderson at the same time they try to give Minaya credit as Asst GM with the Mets.
People say Minaya found Reyes – he didn’t. In fact the guys who did find Reyes were replaced during Omar’s tenure.
People just like throwing names out there and adding credit without even using logic.
Jessep:
The way I understand it.Omar was Director of Scouting in DR. Tuelo the scout discovered Reyes, Reyes wanted something like 20K. Tulo went to Omar. Omar went to Asst GM Jim Duquette who at first did NOT say “Yes”. Tulo told Omar who then told Duquette that the Cubs were sniffing around Reyes and that Reyes better be signed or they would lose him. Duquette then begrudgingly finally agreed to part with 20K and sign Reyes. As far as I know Steve Phillips never was involved in the whole Reyes signing but since he was the GM he gets credit when really Tulo and Omar did all the work.
and the folks who found tejada, mejia, valdespin and the rest were replaced when Sandy came here….
Ismael Cruz, who had been here from 2006-2011, actually was pretty good.
Damaja:
“4 all-star’s from the IFA we found in the 3 years Omar was Asst GM thats more than any other Met gm has found in 50 plus years combined”
So just to be clear you’re giving Omar Minaya credit for what Eddy Toledo found? When Eddy Toledo left the Mets who was the GM?
Right…because out of the DOZENS of prospects each scout presents to the head of international scouting, who then selects the ones he deems worthy of vouching for…
After Omar gives the green light, he has to convince the Wilpons that the player was worth signing.
Omar was brought in specificially to help Steve with the international market.
unless u think its a total coincidence that one of the most well-renowned scouts in the 80′s just happened to be here when those 4 players were discovered and attempts made to sign them.
Had the Wilpons just agreed to pay for Ubaldo’s college, Omar has another feather under his cap
Had the Wilpons agreed to pay Robinson Cano’s bonus ( 250k ), we have an infield of Wright/Reyes/Cano/Delgado
There were many other players that Omar wanted that the wilpons denied…the players themselves put the wilpons on blast..
pedro beato in 2007 when he was with the orioles said that Jeff Wilpon was the one who said no, with the difference being like 400K…this was back when the mets were banking in both Madoff money and record setting attendance..
Steve Phillips was the one okaying and denying signing bonuses not the Wilpons. Toledo had to call Phillips himself to get Reyes’ bonus okayed after Duquette first said no to Omar.
Who was Toledo’s boss when he found them?
Hint….
His title was SENIOR ASST GM and Director of INTERNATIONAL SCOUTING!
Can you name him? Can Ya?
Funny how whenever drafts are discussed you want to give the Dir of Amateur Scouting all the credit but if his name is Omar he gets NONE!
How convenient for you there Jesse!
Toledo’s boss was Steve Phillips.
I think Omar Minaya peed in his fruit loops or something. I’ve been following this site for 3 years and this poster credits Alderson for the same things he refuses to credit Minaya for and is legendary for that.
You noticed that too K Maxx?
It is pretty obvious isn’t it?
Under their parameters for giving credit Sandy gets no credit for Wheeler, Nimmo, or even d’Arnaud…
After all he didn’t draft the the scouting director did….
Doesn’t tet credit for Baxter and Hairston because after all the scouting department found them not Sandy…
As soon as you apply thier credit system to Sandy it would appear all Sandy gets credit for is cashin his check and holding press conferences….
I think most see through thier crap though….
Wait a minute.
Eddy Toledo signed Jose Reyes and urged Minaya to let him do it He met with Jose and his father for lunch and offered him $13k. Minaya never saw Reyes. Toledo called Minaya, told him about the kid and Minaya said go ahead.
You’re trying to tell me that Minaya deserves credit for listening to a scout who had worked for the Mets longer than Minaya? Go ahead. But this idea that Minaya deserves credit past “yes.” is ridiculous. Stop trying to create scenarios that didn’t happen.
Go do your own research. Toledo and Mercado found Minaya. If you want to give Minaya credit because he was their boss and they had to call him to get an ok, that’s fine. This has nothing to do with Sandy Alderson. It has to do with what really happened.
You wanna give the boss credit for saying ok, go ahead. I’ll give the credit to the guy who saw Reyes with his own two eyes and urged his boss to let him sign him.
To put a bow on it, when Adam Rubin worked for the Daily News he interviewed Minaya in October of 2004.
Question: Eddy Toledo, the scout, signed Jose Reyes. But you get credit for being involved with bringing Reyes to the organization when he was only 16. What do you remember about a young Reyes?
Minaya: Eddy really was the one who did a great job. I kind of oversaw the department. And Eddy called me, because before he signed him, I had to approve him. When I first saw Reyes, I thought he was the kind of player that was important in the organization – a more athletic player. But I think all the credit should go to Eddy Toledo.
Read that again please “But I think all the credit should go to Eddy Toledo.”
He approved the signing at the urge of Toledo and was in NY when Reyes was scouted/signed. He gave the green light, thanks Minaya. But he didn’t find him.
and by the way. KMaxx and Metsie – what would you like me to give him credit for? Let me know.
I mean heck just the other day I said the KRod signing was a good one. I think the Pedro signing was a good one, I think the Beltran signing was a great one with 1 mistake (no arby allowed) but it worked out.
I supported the Castillo and the Ollie P signings before you guys even thought it was cool to be pro Omar.
So, sorry I don’t see how trading for Wheeler is the same as sitting in New York when an international scout finds a young kid and calls you urging you to give you $13,000.
You wanna give Minaya credit for wearing a suit while Toledo did the work, be my guest.
The one’s whose crap is seen through is you two agenda driven clowns. I don’t need to make things up ro make one or the other look good or bad. I deal with what actually happened. It’s clowns like you two and then some who change the parameters to fit your agenda’s. The GM was Steve Phillips when Reyes was signed case closed.
“You’re trying to tell me that Minaya deserves credit for listening to a scout…”
No thats what YOU have suggested by INSISTING that the Dir of Amat Scouting is the guy responsible for all our Draft picks when all he did is listen to a scout the same as Omar did!
You can’t have it both ways dude….
So either Pick one or the other…
Well do you get Wheeler if Omar doesn’t bring Beltran here?
Who really should get the credit? Could Sandy get him without Beltran?
Lots of ways to take this differing ways to credit people….
When you decide on one way let us all know and then we will apply them equally and see how they total out….
But this crap that One gets credited one way and another guy gets credited another is bull that just will not fly until you get off the see saw and use the same credit rating system for both!
“I don’t need to make things up…”
Then why do you do that three to four times a day slappy?
Show one post where I made something up. I beg you to show it. There’s dozens of posts written by you that are complete BS all because many people have proved you wrong and you don’t have the guts to admit you’re wrong so you make shit up.
Metsie – There is a drastic difference between international scout director in 1999 and amateur scout director today
The international scouts had to hurry and offer players deals. Often times an International Scouting Director would have nothing to go on but his trusted scouts eyes when approving a deal. An Amateur Scouting Director does run the draft – this isn’t my wild idea, it’s actually a fact. You want me to provide you interviews with amateur scouting directors who say it? I can if you’d like…
An amateur scouting director has years to read/look at scouting reports before making decisions. A kid could be scouted at 16 through his college years before an MLB team signs him. The amateur scouting director compiles information given to him by his scouts and the data he can see on his own and makes the pick. The GM has more to do with an early round 1 pick but those later picks, Sandy Alderson/Minaya/Phillips likely had no idea who the kids were picked late in the draft.
If you’re going to try and tell me you think an int. scouting director has as much info at his disposal as a US amateur scouting director about an 18 year old kid then you are either lost or intentionally trying to argue.
The jobs are so different it’s ridiculous to even compare them.
Oh please the game hasn’t changed all that much in a mere 14 years….
Both DIRs sat in an office until a scout said hey I got something you have to see for yourself….
The INTL DIR had to work Quickly and the Amateur guy could wait till the reports came in and then plan his trips.
Another thing, Phillips had the Mets in the postseason twice. Omar only once. And I feel Philips did a better job with the bullpen overall. Omar did a great job with the bullpen one year — 2006. But then he let Oliver and Bradford go and it was all downhill from there as far as the bullpen went.
Heath Bell, Joe Smith, Darren O’Day, Chad Bradford – Omar let 4 solid relievers go.
Yup jessep, Omar was bad at putting together the bullpens except for 2006. I think the bullpen was one of Phillips’ strengths.
O’day was the worst, because he was lost thanks to a typical botching of roster management, so 1 stiff could come up for a lousy fill-in start, after which he was released too.
That’s a weak comment. Bradford got a three year deal post leaving the Mets….. A deal you were probably criticizing back then. Smith was dealt to acquire Putz. Heath bell sucked or the Mets and Randolph hated him. O’ day may have been a bad move but several teams have given up on him.
Lets also remember Omar found Bradford in th first place along with Duaner Sanchez when he fleeced the Dodgers. With those two he has already put Alderson to shame. Plus I don’t remember such great minor league depth when Omar took over.
not exactly fair…
chad bradford did excellent here…was crappy with baltimore when he left…
darren o day had 1 more good season after he left…
heath bell was dog doo-doo when he was with the mets ( and peterson was never going to give him a chance )
the ones im upset about are joe smith and darren oliver ( how u forgot him i have no idea )
also, a reliever’s success is also highly dependent on how he is used….( warthen is a joke ), his catcher, how often are they in for tight situations ( the 06 team was blowing the league out ), his defense
I’ll even say this…put Ramon Ramirez back on the Giants…and he probably does what he has been doing his whole career…
there is a reason why most relievers since 2008 come here and do horrible…
As many people as Rick P pissed off….I would welcome him back with open arms if it meant he was going to improve the product…
He is currently a pitching coordinator with Baltimore, he was in the running for the Boston Red Sox pitching coach job but was passed up by Juan Nieves from the White Sox
I would sign RP back in a NY minute
Just
“Omar is the best GM since Cashen!”
Great! That makes him the tallest midget in the circus. What exactly does that get him or us Mets’ fans? You sound like a Jets’ fan.
and Sandy is somewhere above Al Harazin and below Jim Duquette
Great so we’re keeping tabs on levels of ineptness now? We are worse than Jets if thats what we’re keping tabs on. None of those GM’s were anything special, including Omar and Sandy (unless things turn around quickly). So one may have set the franchise back 3.5 years instead of 4, great what prize do we get as fans? It’s silly. But ok you win, Omar is the tallest midget. Happy?
I have several issues with things that happened under Omar’s tenure…but they have more to do with the overall culture of the front office vs just simply picking the best 25 guys for that day…
They are not all midgets…some of them would be giants ( or at least alot taller ) if the wilpons were not constantly pulling them down
Notice that since 1992….none of the gm’s employed by the wilpons were ever sought after by other clubs ( with the exception of JM and OM)
Al Harazin – Wilpons buddy and lawyer…went right into retirement
JM – good baseball guy, works with the twins
Steve Phillips – no one wants to touch him, not even the wife
Frank Cashen – was interim GM for a week or 2…
Jim Duquette – ESPN analyst
Omar Minaya – as soon as he was fired, damn near half the league wanted to hire him
Just,
You may have something there. I have stated that I am nota big fan of the Wilpons for a long time. I don’t feal they are cheap (I actually think that they have spent plenty of money)but I believe them to be meddlesome in a passive aggressive way (I hope that’s clear). I also feel that they suffer from the same affliction that Woody Johnson (no I don’t mean that they’re socially awkward and goofy although that certainly describes Jeffy) suffers from in that its more important for them to have their team make headlines than to win.
So, on what facts do you base comparing Alderson (and his team) to Harazin (and his team) or Duquette (and his team) ?
Let´s see: Harazin was allowed to freely spend on what he wanted to revive the 1980s magic. He built the “Worst Team Money Could Buy”. Great. Duquette was allowed to spend, yet not as freely as Harazin in the past or Minaya after him. He had no standing at all and was basically a puppet for Wilpon cronies in the front office and gave away some veterans for nothing and gave away 40 % of the Mets top 10 prospects, including Scott Kazmir, for close to nothing and left behind a terrible farm system – albeit an assist for that also goes to his predecessor Steve Phillips. Neither cared too much about building a strong foundation below the major league level and lacked the skill to build a shortterm winner.
Alderson has been under severe spending restrictions for his entire tenure, with a mandate to cut costs to avoid any severe liquidity issues (the big mistake people make when judging the Wilpons´ financial situation is not distinguishing between assets – which they certainly have – and cash flow / liquid funds – which they have struggled to generate in a sufficient way thanks to Madoff and losing money by operating the Mets recently and probably some of their real estate entities as well). He has spent less money on free agents in 3 off-seasons than Duquette spent in one – or Harazin spent on Bobby Bonilla alone, i.e. 20 years ago, an era since when salaries have more than quadrupled.
A judgement of the Alderson era will be possible a couple of years from now. Basically so far, his administration has been about significantly improving the farm system and nurturing the young talent base of the organization while at the same time turning an expensive and mediocre major league roster into a rather inexpensive and even more mediocre major league roster. By 2014 or 2015, we´ll know whether this will lead to a major turnaround on the field. And by 2016 or 2017 we´ll know whether this goal of – finally – having sustainable success will work.
Damaja – you need to research Eddy Toledo, Juan Mercado and Jose Reyes. Minaya didn’t even see Reyes himself before Toledo told him who he found and got the green light to sign him. You want to give Minaya credit for trusting Eddy Toledo? Fine by me. But this idea that Minaya “discovered” Reyes is a flat out lie.
Minaya wasn’t even there when he was found and signed quickly. Toledo sold Reyes to Minaya over the phone and Minaya said go ahead sign him for $13,000.
Now to me, that’s not discovering Reyes or doing anything but trusting your staff to do their job. You wanna get crazy and give him credit for that – fine by me.
Mercado and Toledo not being here can be traced back to the Minaya front office. Remember that. The scout that FOUND Reyes was allowed to leave for the exact same job elsewhere.
No, the first OFFER was 13,000…Omar had to beg for it to be raised to 22,000…
This is from the NY Times
“The Mets hope to leave here with property for their own academy, where they can train and house the players they sign, instead of having them commute between public facilities as they have for years. Eddy Toledo, the Mets’ director of Dominican operations, and Minaya kept the Mets competitive on scouting here, but they do not have the resources of other teams”
There are buscones—> scouts ( Mercado ) —> directors ( Toledo )
Toledo was in the mets organization as a scout since the early 80′s
Again, its not a coincidence that all the magic happens when Omar was here…
o by the way, Toledo left in 2006…
Since then the mets found Flores, Tejada, Mejia, Valdespin, and Familia
any questions ?
And Sandy Alderson is still pushing his 1980 and 1990′s philosophy of walks, errors and homers…..doesn’t h realize the steroid era which brought him his only success is over?????
Hi Metro,
I did not mean to infer that the Wilpons told Omar to specifically get Pedro Martinez. What I was meaning that they gave Omar a mandate to build a winner and the purse strings to do it.
That Omar had to convince them to spend big money, it had to be done before the Wilpons hired him, not after. Also, if the Wilpons wanted to go in a different direction than what Omar wanted, why would they have hired him to begin with (it was not like 2010 when Bud Selig interfered with Sandy). Metro, from what you infer it implies that the Mets didn’t conduct a thorough interview with Omar, did not vet him on what his ideas were for the organization, that they didn’t discuss his budgetary thought processes, that he didn’t speak in terms of competing with the Yankees at their own game, etc.
And of course, both parties knew each other quite well already, with Omar having previously been the team’s assistant and then senior assistant general manager
Also it appears what was written in those two articles is being taken out of context with one even quoting Omar as saying Jay Horwitz called him during the 2004 world series and said that Pedro could possibly be sought after. And one convincing his or her boss to approve the steps he was taking – or not re-sign Al Leiter – does not mean those measures represented a different financial mindset or philosophy.
Ciao
Joey, yes I agree that the Wilpons brought Omar in to build a winner, but they didn’t dictate strategy to him. They didn’t tell him to spend money. It was Omar’s idea to spend big bucks on free agents, and he had to sell the Wilpons on it.
It doesn’t really matter whether Omar sold them on his spending plan before he came aboard or after. The fact was they had no clue what to do at that point other than to bring Omar back, whom they liked. They left it up to him.
And I disagree with you that Selig “interfered” with Alderson. He merely recommended to Alderson that he interview for the job. Then he recommended to the Wilpons that they hire him. But the Wilpons were still free at that point to go with one of the other candidates, such as Byrnes whom they were strongly considering.
The Mets didn’t have to conduct a “thorough interview” with Omar. They knew him pretty well already from the time he worked with Phillips. They merely had to persuade him to come back. All he wanted was autonomy. And they gave it to him. If budgets are discussed in this stage of negotiations, they are only discussed in very general terms. And anyone who thinks Omar would turn down a job if not given an open wallet beforehand is crazy. He was used to working with pennies as the Expos GM. So even if the Mets told Omar he’d only have 80 million or so to work with, you know he was going to jump at it. Again, the biggest thing for him was the autonomy. And he got that.
As for the call from Horwitz, I’m puzzled as to your take about it. Horwitz didn’t tell Omar that Pedro could be had. He was merely passing along a message that Pedro had asked him TWICE to relay. Pedro asked Jay to say hello to Omar for him. So that’s what he did. You’re reading into that call much more than is there. I also disagree with your take that chucking Leiter and going for Pedro doesn’t represent a change in financial strategy. The difference between the two contracts was about $40 million!
Hi Metro,
Fools as they are, the Wilpons aren’t just going to tell a general manager to do things and then show them the bill later…., but on second thought, you could be right since they are such fools. But it doesn’t seem reasonable nevertheless to think that.
But regarding Horwitz, this is what the author wrote:
“Months later, Minaya laughs as he recalls getting a phone call from Horwitz during the World Series—and getting the meaning from Pedro. “When you’re a free agent, that’s a pretty clear coded message: ‘Hey, keep me in mind,’ ” Minaya says. “The timing of it tells me, this isn’t Pedro being polite; this guy’s interested. Especially since Pedro told Jay, ‘Say hello to Omar,’ twice.”
Omar is saying he understood what Pedro was trying to do – that it was more than a friendly phone call to Horwitz. You think Jay didn’t know why Pedro would suddenly be calling him during a world series he was participating in and tell him to say hello to the new GM?
Joey, I never said the Wilpons told Omar to do whatever he wanted and then to just show them the bill later. I said Omar convinced the Wilpons to open up the pocket book. And if you read that article I linked to, it’s clear he had to sell them on Pedro BEFORE he signed him. So the cost (in rough terms) was already known to the Wilpons before he signed. It’s not like Omar just signed Pedro — or anyone else — and then just sent the bill to the Wilpons, lol.
And I’m totally confused about the point you’re trying to make about Pedro/Horwitz and how that story is relevant to this discussion. And, btw, Pedro didn’t call Horwitz. He spotted him outside the clubhouse and told him TWICE to tell Omar he said hello. So Horwitz calls Omar to tell him that. Just wanted to keep the story straight. Again, what’s your point about this?
Hi Metro,
Thanks for pointing it out that Pedro didn’t call Horwitz but saw him. Been reading so much that the eyeballs have been popping out.
The point I was making was that with Pedro making overtures to Omar that the Wilpons were aware of it as well that Pedro would consider leaving the Red Sox. If it was then Omar who had to convince Jeff that iit might be a good move for the Mets, you could be right. But I don’t think Jeff needed much convincing since Jeff would be thinking of the image and publicity that signing him would give the Mets.
Maybe the better question is if Omar caved in for that fourth year because he wanted Martinez so much to be the stepping stone or after selling the idea to pursue Pedro to Jeff did Fred’s son size upon the promotion and hype idea and thus said get him at all costs.
I think in general terms, Omar and the Wilpons were on the same wavelength as to get as many good players as one could as quickly as possible. Besides signing Pedro and Beltran, Omar was also trying to sign Delgado that same season. That could have resulted in probably one of the biggest trio signings of free agents by any team – and perhaps the most expensive signed in one season as well – until Loria, of course.
Been fun,
Joey
Joey – interesting point but Loriis’s spending doesn’t even register in the top ten. He guaranteed 191 million to three players over 6 years. Fielde and pujols have bigger guarantees than that. Plus tex, cc and Burnett costs the yanks 423 million
Hi Jon,
Yeah, Loria was just the name that popped into my mind when thinking about a trio of big name signings.
But didn’t realize last season was peanuts compared to others.
Joey D — yes, ultimately the Wilpons and Omar were on the same page — but not in the very beginning, and that’s the important point. It took Omar to convince the Wilpons to go on the big free agent buying binge. It’s not a strategy that was dictated to him, as some would have you believe.
If you can say that the Santana deal was a good one, then you have to consider the Pedro deal being good also. We only got 11/2 or 2 good years out of each. I personally think Pedro contributed more than Johan.
If Mets Police shut it down, would anybody really miss them? You should do your own awards.
So many problems with Dooby’s post I’ll take them one by one…
“but he couldn’t foresee the collapse of Bernie Madoff’s scheme either I suppose”
Madoff didn’t stop him from spending…He spent right up until he got fired and got Jason Bay! Anyone who thinks Madoff has anything to do with Met Spending or it’s financial difficulties obviously doesn’t know a damn thing about that whole fiasco other than the name of the guy who ran the Ponzi Scheme….
He did underestimate how long it´d take for that talent to get here though.
NOTHING could be further from the truth. Just look at when the big contracts he signed were due to expire…
Santana 2014
Bay 2014
Wright 2013
Reyes 2012
Beltran 2012
K-Rod 2012
Delgado 2010
Then look at the Kids that have come up and when…
Tejada 2012 the Year Reyes was due to be FA
Harvey (was supposed to be 2013 to get a year WITH Santana) Came up a year early
Davis 2011 was the target but was ready in 2010 and forced to play due to injury to Murph
Pagan came up 2010 a year before Beltran was due to expire.
Murphy (came up early due to Delgado getting hurt but was a 3B/1B expected to help hold the line in 2010 and beyond if Wright left.
Parnell was always meant to take over for K-Rod, He wasn’t ready to however but funny the year K-Rods contract would have expired he finally shows some hint that he may eventually be that guy.
Flores – Was our replacement for Wright and if Wright had not extended Flores would likely be our 3B next year as he is due to play in AA this year.
Seems to me his projected timeline for Kids was DEAD ON as far as the contracts he signed were concerned but the problem was those guys he signed all got hurt in one year and hurt the attendance that was supposed to pay for all of it. 2009 was supposed to be the year they went over the top and won thier WS…Injuries hurt that not lack of signed talent but lack of signed HEALTHY talent and anyone who suggests he could predict they would have had that string of injuries I dare to predict the next baseball player that gets put on the disabled list….Can you? I Didn’t think so!
Likewise he ignored high upside prospects in the draft and went for low risk – but often low ceiling signings.
Did he ignore them or was he denied access to picking them?
He had only two top 10 overall picks to work with in 6 drafts. One pick was Pelfrey (HAD a high upside he never met) and Harvey who will make his bones and show his warts this year if they exist.
He gave away picks to get free agents in:
2006 18th overall (the team who got it took Kyle Drabek who just has TJ Surgery) for Wagner
2007 29th Overall Pick (Team took Wendell Fairley) to get Moises Alou who had a decent year that year. Got hurt the next year which is why most of you guys call him failure.
2009 24th Overall Pick (Team got Randal Grichuk, Sure Trout was picked next doesn’t mean squat) For K-Rod
The picks he had to use outside of the top 10 was Davis 18th Overall -You can call 32 HRs servicable I call it pretty damn good!
Yet he still managed to get Tejada, Flores, Murphy, Duda, Gee, Niese, Dickey, Den Dekker, Kirk, Valdespin, Pagan, to fill out his MiL system as SERVICABLE….
And ALL have made more contributions combined than any HIGH CIELING player that you can name who is pretty much all that team found or if they found more was due to where they picked as oposed to HOW they picked.
The ONLY miscalculation Omar made was he expected the guy he signed to remain healthy and win games for him. If they had the attendance would have held, the money to pay them would have remained and we might have actually had a WS win in 2009 to crow about.
Omar got tripped up by the same thing that tripped up the Phillies last year….
That CORE everyone crows about them having got hurt for half a season (sound familiar?) and unfortunatly the fans abandoned them as a result.
But if those guys had stayed healthy we might have been the WS champs AND had all the kids we are relying and building with today to replace those stars and thier big contracts so we could fill in the few places where our Kids failed with REAL MLB talent to keep the winning going.
Omar didn’t live long enough to see his plan come to fruition and get completed…
And the truth is Sandy won’t either!
We will have a lot of kids to work with but someone else will become the next Cashen because Sandy did the GRANT work that preceeded Cashen and got him all those high picks to get the High Cieling guys you all seem intent on having before you want to try and win.
What is odd is you guys seem to think taking HS players is the way to go because of their cieling…Well the reason why people talk about thier cieling is because thats all they have to like about those guys they are so unproven at that point.
If I remember correctly, Omar wasn´t allowed to spend for Joel Pineiro or Jason Marquis, two SP he had targeted to fill out the thinning rotation after signing Bay in 2009/2010.
So, he actually got to face the first effects of the Madoff fiasco.
Also, again and again, the Madoff scam lead to CASH FLOW issues once the Mets stopped generating a profit. Because while the Wilpons still had and have a bunch of – highly leveraged and financed – assets, they didn´t have much cash anymore (500+ million $ gone with Uncle Bernie) and at the same time not a sufficient cash flow anymore.
Which became a serious problem when the team stopped being a legit playoff contender. In 2009, the effects weren´t there yet because of the opening of the new park and special effects from that. Most 2009 tickets were bought in the 2008 / 2009 off-season, i.e. the team having missed the playoffs by 1 game and entering a new ballpark, projected as yet another legit playoff contender. In 2010, attendance and profits already dwindled after the 2009 debacle, yet it was chalked up as an aberration, Bay was signed and hope for a quick rebound persisted. Well, it didn´t come that way. Meanwhile – and that´s a key aspect in all of this – the payroll made a big spike for 2011 already due to the contract structure of previous years. Bay´s first year salary was only about 6 million $ in 2010, I believe and then jumped into the mid teens for example. Santana got a big raise – and K-Rod too. That´s the downside of backloading contracts, btw. So, after back-to-back losing seasons, regressing ticket sales because of it but a rising payroll at the same time and no more extra cash available from the Madoff funds, there wasn´t any money left to spend in the winter of 2010 / 2011. Face the facts !
And again: Non liquid assets don´t equal cash flow or an ability to make payments on time.
The real crime is the wilpons not taking advantage of their faux cash flow ( and the interest gained on those deferred contracts ) in terms of the draft and IFA spending.
thnk about it…the mets from 1990-2012 have historically neglected IFA and Drafts….and this is when they went through periods of raking in the dough…
Doob -
Pretty fair assessment of Omar. He wasn’t the best – he had trouble fixing holes such as the bullpen – that was covered up because of his penchant for big ticket items – he wasn’t the worst by a long shot – he made the Mets important and competitive.
Listen, under Omar the team was fun to watch. Omar’s problems began soon after Beltran swung at that curveball. Players kept getting hurt – with no real reserve – and the team, as a whole, didn’t really get – as evidenced by their record setting September swoons.
But, I gotta tell you – his teams were far better than the crap they’re wheeling out now.
Give me $140 million dollars for a payroll and the pieces Omar had to work with when he was hired and I could give you an equally entertaining team. Just about anyone could.
What would have been nice is if he could have given us a consistently winning team. He didn’t. He’s gone.
Boomer – Omar averaged $101 Million his first two years as GM not the $140,000 that you mentioned.
The year before he took over the payroll was $102 million and finished 20 games under .500.
His first year with a payroll a million less ($101 million) the team was 4 games OVER .500.
The next year, 2006, with a payroll of $101 Million the team came down to the last pitch almost making the World Series. He did top $140 in 2009 ($151 million) and certainly 2011′s $151 million was his respondsibilty.
Now you can certainly argue that many contracts were backloaded – but Omar did great things in turning the team around the second he took control.
Maybe he had a used by date.
tlagee-
The point is you just can’t compare what Omar inherited and what he had to work with and what Alderson inherited and had to work with. The situations are completely different.
Omar had all kinds of flexibility and was brought in to put the final touches on a contender. I mean how tough is it to bring in free agents when you are given an open check book? Beltran made it clear he was willing to give the Yankees a significant discount if they would just show him some love. They refused and Alderson outbid the field. Thats not exactly shrewd wheeling and dealing. Alderson was brought in with the express purpose of cutting payroll significantly and at the same time put the team in a position to be a contender again when the austerity period ends.
The only way to judge the two is to judge them on how they achieved their assignments not against each other. And its not really fair to judge Alderson’s record until at least the end of this season.
On and, I’m sure you know but a $101 million payroll in 2006 is not the same thing as a $101 million payroll in 2012. Inflation. $101 million in 2006 is $114 million is 2012 dollars. $151 million in 2006 dollars is roughly $172 million in 2012 dollars.
Comparing the product that Alderson is putting on the field when he is working with a little more than half of what Omar did in real dollars is a bit of a stretch.
Apples and apples and all that.
Omar inherited the ability to spend some money
Sandy inherited a MUCH BETTER TEAM, trade chips and a MUCH BETTER FARM SYSTEM
The problem is…people conveniently forget how bad the 2003-2004 mets were
If Omar inherited the system he left behind…he doesnt HAVE to increase spending that much
what part of that equation is hard to understand?
He was brought in to put the final touches on a contender????? What are you smoking. He took over a disaster…..and made it into a contender.
LMAO
Glavine
Traschel
Zambrano
Heillman
Benson
Closer – Looper
1B – ______
2B – Matsui
SS – Reyes
3B – Wright
C – An old Piazza
RF – _________
CF – Cameron
LF – An injuryprone Floyd
LMAOOO
Finishing touches !!!!
Boomer & tlagee — Keep in mind that in 2004 the payroll was 96 million but that Vaughn, Leiter, Weathers and Guiterrez ALL came off the books at the end of that season. That’s $36 million right off the bat that Omar had to work with. The 2005 payroll ended up to be 101 million, so Omar had at least $40 million total to work with his very first year. Alderson can only dream about such riches. I think the most he’s had to work with is about $10 million each winter, lol. That is night and day.
and on the flip side, Sandy never inherited the burden of high expectations…
Different mission
he rather inherited 5 trade chips to rebuild.
Beltran
Dickey
Wright
Reyes
K-Rod
The pressures might have been worse on Alderson if only because he’s not only had to operate with peanuts, unlike Omar, but he’s had to operate with the pressure of knowing the whole franchise could go under due to the lawsuit and the huge losses the owners incurred with Madoff. While Omar was asked to turn around the franchise, he was given over $40 million to spend the first year and there were no comparable financial pressures on the franchise at the time. Financially speaking, it was easy street.
As for the trade chips, Omar inherited them too. Wright, Reyes, Cameron, Floyd, Bell, Looper — he could have flipped any of them if he had wanted to. Only he didn’t need to because the owners opened up the vault for him when he asked for the money.
Hi Metro,
You are correct, Sandy had the burden of saving the team from going bankrupt. But doesn’t It seem that the more explanations given to rationalize Sandy’s moves, the more the correlation toward business concerns and not that of the team?
Joey — they sound like business answers because the team the last few years has had to be run like one. For once. It was mismanaged prior to that both with the wallet and on the field. So they’ve gone through a few years of belt-tightening. If it lasts much longer it will not be good. But I think starting next year the purse strings will be loosened. I know some are impatient, but it is what it is. Just accept it sit tight for the time being at least. Give Sandy at least one more year (2013) to start to turn things around. It’s not his fault. It’s primarily the Wilpons and Omar. And Madoff too, lol.
KRod had ZERO trade value as an aging and well overpaid closer.
He wasn´t the KRod of 2006 or 2008 anymore, even leaving out the off-field stuff.
This was a former power turned finesse pitcher making 11.5 million in 2011 – with a 17 million $ option for 2012 or a 3 million $ buyout, if he was used as a closer, making him only appealing to a club that didn´t plan to use him as a closer but instead as the most highly paid setup reliever in Baseball.
Beltran´s value was damaged entering 2011 – and only rebounded with his strong 1st half. Nobody in Baseball believed the Mets would get a talent as highly rated as Wheeler. Certainly not at the beginning of the 2011 season – and not even at the deadline until it actually happened.
Not getting full value out of Reyes by either keeping him or trading him was a bad decision. Whatever the motivation may have been. It is bad and looks bad.
Dickey was turned into a tremendous haul, again, far more than what anyone in Baseball believed (or suggested) was realistic.
Wright was extended longterm – looking at the risk factor, easily the best risk to take with any of these inherited players considering how well 3bmen usually age and hold their production into their mid 30s compared to other players (or pitchers).
“This was a former power turned finesse pitcher making 11.5 million in 2011″
So basically you just make shit up off the top of your head and hope we swallow it or at minimum don’t point out how dumb you sound when saying things like this?
Thing is that basically when you run out of arguments all you do is try to insult the person who doesn’t share your firm opinion. It would be a lot more convincing if you were able or willing to substantiate your opinion instead of just throwing BS around.
How about a little fact check:
KRod’s average velocity in 2011: 90.2 mph – which certainly is below average for a RH reliever.
His average velocity in 2009, his first season with the Mets: 92.7 mph
His average velocity with the Angels in 2007: 93.5 mph
So, yes, KRod had turned into a finesse pitcher and wasn’t the power shutdown closer he used to be in his prime.
And with a guaranteed salary of 11.5 million in 2011, plus a 3 million $ buyout, he was guaranteed 14.5 million for that season – unless his lovely 17.5 million $ option for 2012 would have vested to make it a cool 29 million $ for two years for a no longer elite closer.
Don’t get me wrong, KRod was and still is a solid reliever, certainly better than Frank Francisco even if FF throws a tick harder. However, he was vastly overpaid by 2011 and thus worth next to nothing in a trade. Just like Johan Santana is worth nothing in a trade right now – even though he may still be a solid SP when healthy.
And apparently Boras and KRod weren’t convinced either that the other 28 teams were going to be very interested in him as a free agent – or why did he agree on the one year, 8 million $ extension for 2012 with the Brewers if he was actually such a valuable asset ???
A 2012 season, in which his 1st half struggles were a big reason why MIL didn’t contend by the way and he couldn’t even keep the closer job during the summer while Axford struggled too for the Brewers and temporarily lost the closer role.
And I don’t see many teams lining up to give KRod a longterm big free agent contract right now either. Maybe because he just isn’t the pitcher he used to be ( besides off- field issues that also don’t increase his attractiveness for sure.
So, inheriting him was more of a burden for the new FO than any sort of marketable asset.
Oh please Pot…Go tell it to the Kettle….
The fact that K-Rod was still throwing in the mid 90′s just proves you really have no clue what your talking about where he is concerned.
@ Metsie: I’m not making the loss of velo up for KRod.
He averaged 90.2 mph with his FB in 2011. He may have touched 94 mph on occasion – but generally sat in the 88 to 91 mph range.
He did rebound to 91.6 mph again in 2012 – back to fringe average for a reliever in 2012 but was less effective overall.
That said, I ‘d be happy if the Mets sign him to a 1-year, 5 million $ type contract tomorrow as a stopgap reliever to keep them competitive, Same for Jose Valverde for that matter.
Dooby please using his average speed is no basis for saying the guy is a finnesse pitcher unless you really have no clue what a finnesse pitcher means….
He throws in the 90′s does he throw more sliders than he used to?
Maybe but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t still throw mid 90 Fastballs regularly…
The only difference is he doesn’t just do it with JUST fastballs anymore…
A Finnese pitcher throws curves and changeups both of which K-Rod NEVER throws…
He’s not a painter he will change speeds on you all in an effort to get you off timing of his out pitch the FASTBALL….
Thats the definition of a Power pitcher not a finnesse pitcher…
“A Finnese pitcher throws curves and changeups both of which K-Rod NEVER throws”
Lord ole mighty do you ever get tired of being wrong. K-Rod never throws curves and change ups? Do you even watch Met games?
2006-2.0% change ups
2007- 9.6% change ups
2008-16%
2009-21.5%
2010-17.4%
2011-18.7%
2012-20.1%. So in 5 years Since 2007 he went from throwing 9.6% of his pitches change ups to 20.1, jumping to 21.5 his 1st year as a Met but he never throws change ups according to Metsie.
Lets take a look at curveballs.
2002-25%
2003-1.6%, threw more sliders instead 33% up from 21% sliders in 2002.
2004 -10.2% curves 34% sliders
2005 -21.4% curves, 26.7% sliders
2006 -3.1%. curves. 38.9% sliders
2007- Ditched the curve threw more sliders 39% and adopted the change 9.6%, up from 2.0% changes in 06
2008-1.0% curves, 31.6% sliders, jumped to 16% change ups
2009 -20.7% curves, 21.9% change ups, said adios to slider.
2010-22.3 curves, 17.4% change ups, 0.0% sliders
2011-21.1 curves, 18.7 changes, 0.0% sliders
2012-19.3 curves, 20.1 changes, 0.0% sliders.
Fastball dipped from 94.8 MPH in 2006 at his peak to 92.7 in 2009 first as a Met, 91.1 in 2010 and 90.3 in 2011. Bounced back to 91.8 in 2012. He went from being a power pitcher throwing fastballs and hard sliders to a finesse pitcher throwing curves and change ups. Contact % against him went from 66% n 2007 to 80.9% in 2012. Next time do a little research.
I’ll take the avoidance as a concession.
Nope take it as me taking Joes advice and ignoring anidiot whonever does anything but call everyone els a liar then goes and lies his way himself….
Bumped into this thread again and saw the latest comment and couldn´t really let it stand…
…FACT is (check out: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1642&position=P for example if you wish)
that K-Rod´s average FASTBALL velocity regressed seriously from his prime with the Angels when he was an elite reliever, striking out 12 batters per 9 IP with a fastball routinely in the 93 to 95 mph range towards 90.2 mph on average for his fastball (i.e. sometimes still 93 mph but often only 89 or 90 mph) and his K-rate dropped to a still above average range of 9.5 or so batters per 9 innings.
Again, K-Rod was still a good reliever in his Mets tenure, no doubt about it. However, he was being paid as an elite reliever which he certainly wasn´t anymore. He was certainly not worth the 29 million $ he would have received had the Mets let his option vest between 2011 and 2012 – but probably about half of that. Which his 1-year, 8 million $ deal with the Brewers for 2012 and the apparent lack of a market for his services this winter certainly proves.
So, the question is, had K-Rod any sort of trade value back in 2011, getting paid what he got paid ?
Answer: No. Getting out of the 17.5 (!) million $ option for 2012 was fine as it is. That two live bodies were acquired in return was absolutely okay.
Of course, did it help the Mets´ fringe playoff chances in 2011 ? Absolutely not. It sabotaged the outside chance of a playoff appearance in 2011 – just like the Carlos Beltran deal did and just like not offering Ike Davis and Matt Harvey for Cliff Lee did too.
Except I totally debunked your claim that K-Rod never throws curves and change ups. Either you didn’t watch Met games when K-Rod was on the team or you don’t know what a curveball and or change up looks lik because he threw a lot of both when he was a Met as opposed to “Never” as you claimed.
And I don’t call everyone a liar just a couple of guys here, you being one of them that constantly lies to try to be right instead of just saying I was wrong which you have never once admitted to.
Hey Metro -
fair point until I got to”
“The 2005 payroll ended up to be 101 million, so Omar had at least $40 million total to work with his very first year. Alderson can only dream about such riches…”
Well Alderson didn’t have to dream – he had over 43 million off the books in the first year (Cora, Castillo, Francoeur, Mathews, Perez. Feliciano and others).
And 2011 he had an additonal 48 million off the books (Beltran, F-Rod, Reyes among others)
That’s 91 million in the two years since he got the club. And how much was invested back into the club? Peanuts.
Now I understand that his job was to gut the team and place cheaper players on the field – which he has done well. Omar’s job was to make the team relevant -which he did by inheriting a team 20 games under .500 and making them a contender within two years.
tlagee —
Perez and Castillo did not come off the books until after the 2010 season. GMJ had only been making roughly minimum with the Mets (his former club picked up most) so when he left the savings was negligible. So, only about 10 million really came off the books after 2010 (that figure is a rough estimate).
After the 2011 season, roughly 48 million did come off the books, but remember that 6 players were arb eligible, and they did spend on the bullpen (roughly 10 million).
So counting just the money that came off the books the first 2 years Sandy was here, that is roughly 60 million, NOT 90 million. Further, the Wilpons restricted the budget for both of Sandy’s first two years and this winter as well. That’s the Wilpons’ fault, not Sandy’s.
Sandy had roughly $10-15 million to spend each of his first two winters with the Mets. This year he has slightly more ($15-25?) .
So to sum up, Omar literally had roughly 80-100 million to spend his first two years with the Mets. Sandy has had only 20-30. That’s a huge difference. Don’t blame Sandy. Blame the Wilpons.
Should read: Perez and Castillo did not come off the books until after the 2011 season.
Hey Metro -
I don’t blame Sandy – he’s just doing the job he took – to gut the team and extremely lower the payroll.
I do blame the Wilpons.
Joey D….
“Omar, on the other hand, did not have the burden of financial necessity on his shoulders so what he did with the farm system was much more a planned baseball strategy than anything Sandy devised.”
Here we go again. You concede that SA had no choice but to slash payroll — and agree there were no options at that point. And yes, he did so by dismantling the team and getting rid of as many high salaried players as he could. What I don’t understand is how you truly believe that there is no strategy involved here. You speak as if Sandy, JP and Depo are just wandering about aimlessly through the MLB without a plan. Did you not see that they made every effort to acquire talent while shedding some of the high salaried players? Do you not see the improvement in the MiLB rankings? Do you think that happened by accident? And the players that were just useless and of no value to anyone, they just cut outright to make roster room to evaluate the youth. Did you not see that they went for high ceiling players in the draft?
I know tearing down the team was hard to watch….I shared your pain with that. But I can assure you Joey, there is a plan in place……just give it some time. Hang in there.
Hi Watch,
I came across the attached article written after the 2005 season regarding the changing role of the General Manager. It’s not going to resolve our dispute but it is going to put into better perspective the roles of the Sandy Aldersons in today’s game and perhaps provide more insight to why many of us have that different slant on things.
Basically it talks about how baseball teams in the past weren’t run properly as businesses – in fact, the author points out how they were horrible business examples. In the last few decades that had to change as the stakes got higher and teams could no longer operate in that manner. Baseball became a big industry and could no longer be treated by the owners in terms of it just being a game. They needed it to be run as a business and for that business people were needed to run the show from the top – not baseball people. It became too big a business. Thus the owners hired Harvard and Yale-type School of Law or School of Business Administration types -just as any other big corporation would do.
But if one takes into account that business attitude – that a baseball team, like any other business, must be run as one – and then looks at other things I’ve already pointed out – including the Wilpon’s financial state, Sandy’s executive background in finance and legal matters and his business philosophies, one can at least understand the point that right now Sandy’s priority is getting the business in order for that is what he is – a business person.
Don’t forget this is not something new on Sandy’s part – Oakland’s new owners did not want him to spend money like prior years so he also sent his stars packing without replacing them and made trades which also brought back prospects (those he got for McGwire amounted to nothing). He cut expenses in San Diego for the same reason. Plus remember what he said about trades not being based anymore on talent due to free agency.
Baseball is treated like a big business and that is what Sandy is indeed treating it as. We all know when a corporation is on the verge of bankruptcy in order to avoid that there is downsizing and years of cost cutting measures and financial losses. This also results in a drop off production until business begins to pick up. That is the approach Sandy is taking now. Baseball is not seen as a game but as a business.
That’s why I contend he does not have a baseball vision but a business vision. The Wilpons do not want to sell the club and in order not to do so, he has done for them what he did in Oakland. Beyond the payroll, he cut back minor league operations plus ten percent of non-baseball operations, negotiated the re-financing of loans, re-structured the business (with Deloitte CRG), etc.
Sandy Alderson was not interested in the job and was happy where he was with MLB. He admitted he would not be here if it wasn’t at the urging of Bud Selig. The Wilpons twice could not meet monthly expenses. The Mets needed a new general manager not to do Omar’s work – they needed that new breed of general managers like Sandy. They could just no longer run the show the way they did before when they were making hefty profits off their investment with Madoff.
That’s the point – baseball is not viewed at as a game by the front office – it is a business.
The use of advanced stats by this new breed of general manager is also a major thrust of the article too and while that is a debate to be continued at another time, I must point out to take caution in the author’s premise due to his own mis-comprehensions like 1) crediting non-traditional methods used by Theo Epstein for the Red Sox World Championship the year he came on board while not taking into account this was basically the same team (other than Schilling) that had gone to the players prior years already, 2) emphasizing money ball innovations by Billy Beane while I showed Bill James himself saying Billy Beane had not revolutionized the front office and 3) not mentioning anything about the loss of Giambi and Damon being minimal after 2001 because of the explosive force of Oakland’s other hitters plus that dominating pitching staff – something any knowledgeable baseball person (i.e., Tony LaRussa) would know.
Ciao for now.
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/The-GM-Revolution_8672/p/3
Hi Joey and thanks for responding.
Enjoyed reading your reply and actually agree with the transformation you speak of in the MLB teams’ approach to operating. We’ve no doubt evidenced a greater weight being employed on the business side of the operation. But I beg to ask; are you also a politician? I ask because in your reply you didn’t address any of the questions I asked you
Without retyping or cutting and pasting the efforts made by this FO that I asked if you saw, I’ll just summarize it….do you not see the strategy and plan in the “baseball” moves that this FO has made to build a healthy, sustainable winning team?
You know a team can be run as a business and still have a “baseball” approach in the strategies being employed. The two CAN coexist in the operation of a team. I’m starting to think you believe its one or the other. Here’s soemthing to ponder…..if you were wealthy enough to own your own MLB team, wouldn’t you treat it as a business and strive for profitability while making baseball moves within your business framework?
Hi Watch,
When asking if I was a politician I will respond with the words of that great philosopher Curly “Hey, that’s an insult!” nyuck nyuck
I thought it was a given from our previous exchanges where I stood on the issue, so that is why I did not address it in that last response – it was not an avoidance or omission. So instead of cutting and pasting myself, I too will paraphrase what I previously wrote.
Of course, both can be done at the same time. My point has been that the unique – and in many ways unprecedented – dynamics of the Wilpon’s financial crisis – made the decision to rebuild one of fiscal necessity, not that of player necessity. With the talent Sandy inherited both on the major league level, some being all-star caliber the team was not being re-built but dismantled and then to be rebuilt all over again (outfield: Bay/Pagan/Beltran, infield: Wright/Reyes/?/Davis, Thole behind the plate, KRod, Takahashi, Feliciano (later on injured but at the time not know), Parnell anchoring the bullpen, starters: Dickey, Neise and at the time a good Mike Pelfrey).
Add to that the farm system with players just about ready to be brought up or recalled (a healthy Murphy, Gee, Duda, Turner, Tejada) plus those down the road with Harvey, Familia, Mejia, etc.
So yet, in November, 2010 Sandy’s strategy was to completely start over – but that was no baseball “vision” or “plan”. It was fiscal. And when the team was surprising everyone with it’s great first half starts in both 2011 and 2012 – all due not to the addition of the “inexpensive” players Sandy got but despite of them – he still sent off our closer and top batter one year and then does nothing to address the bullpen issue (he created) the next year.
So under Sandy, for the explicit reasons he was pushed by Selig to quit a job he was very happy with, the Mets couldn’t even win when winning.
And even in terms of rebuilding, that comes from four other elements combined with the farm system: 1) retaining the productive players to build around, 2) trades, 3) free agent signings and 4) not creating unnecessary holes when one does not have a sense of who could close them. That is a plan that needs to be followed. To this point, we’ve seen number two do the opposite of number 1 and actually produce number 4. We’ve seen number three not with obtaining young stars with an eye toward the future (not having to be superstars but good, dependable players that could fit in with the team) but with inexpensive stop gap measures that produced nothing but filling a roster hole.
The steps taken by the Mets as described above do not resemble a coordinated effort to rebuild but rather a HOPE to strike gold with mainly unproven prospects coming up to the big team. That turned to be successful this past season with Oakland following five prior years of dismal ball – but will they be good enough to continue or become like the Miracle Mets (which peaked at one time). But that has otherwise failed in small market towns like Kansas City, Pittsburgh and San Diego which also do not have the resources to follow a legit plan (though KC is trying this coming season).
That’s why I contend the moves being made are so overwhelmingly fiscal in nature – and why the Mets cannot even win when winning.
Joey D.,
I agree that the rebuilding was mainly financially motivated and not an isolated Baseball decision.
However, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right decision.
Basically, Alderson & Co. broke up an expensive .500 caliber team – that had finished below .500 in back to back years due to bad luck and injuries.
Entering the 2010 / 2011 off- season, the projected payroll for 2011 was already at 130 million $ – with Takahashi & Feliciano eligible for free agency and Santana expected to be out for most of the 2011 season.
Yes, there was some solid complementary talent available. Still, the Mets were lacking at least one SP and a bullpen beyond KRod & Parnell. To get this team to 90 win level, significant improvements would have been necessary – such as signing a Cliff Lee type frontline SP and at least keeping Takahashi & Feliciano, plus add another proven RH reliever. Along with a much needed backup C and backup OF, the projected 2011 payroll would have had to be in the 165 to 170 million $ range – with no guarantee to be better than the Phillies or Braves.
And then, you’d have had to keep Reyes & Beltran as free agents ( for 30 million $ or so annually) and let KRod’s option vest or restructure the contract for 2012 and beyond.
Again, your payroll would have still been in the 165 million $ range even with Perez and Castillo off the books due to escalating salaries to Santana, Wright, Bay, Reyes, Pagan and KRod eating up the savings. Even without the rash of injuries, this team is still in the 85 to 90 win range and now has Washington join the party at the top with a young and hungry team. All this, with one of the highest payrolls in Baseball.
At the same time Wheeler, D’ Arnaud, Syndergaard, Fulmer and Mazzoni, i.e. half of the current Top 10 prospects never enter your farm system. So basically, for much needed July deadline deals you have Mejia, Familia, Flores and Nieuwenhuis as your main trade bait 2 assumming Matt Harvey is deemed untouchable. So with Pelfrey blowing out his elbow in 2012, you trade Flores and Familia for Ryan Dempster at the July 2012 deadline to still have a shot.
Your roster gets older and older, your farm is barren beyond Harvey, Mejia and Nieuwenhuis and your 2013 payroll again in the 170+ million $ range and about to get significantly more expensive with arbitration looming for Davis, Parnell and others, plus Wright, Dickey and Pagan looking for a new contract, still no in- house relief help…
So, unless you were willing to have a payroll near the luxury tax threshold for 2013 and probably 2014 as well, even in terms of Baseball decision making, keeping going for shortterm gains wasn’t the best option.
Because a half-hearted ” just keep everyone and hope for the best” approach probably would have meant years in the 85- win range, with meaningful games in September but no playoffs.
Only adding expensive pieces such as Cliff Lee would have made sense to take this old core to potential playoff levels.
Considering the financial circumstances, this was no option.
The Mets are finally rebuilding again the right way.
And this is a step by step process that takes a few years.
Cut down the payroll, get rid of the veteran core ( or most of it), accumulate as much high end talent as possible in the minors. Try to find out which young pieces will help longterm.
Once that process is completed, you start adding again – via trades and via free agency, using the new payroll space and farm depth in the process.
Hi DrD,
This is where we disagree as far as the state of the Mets – personnel wise – as of November, 2010.
Putting aside the financial equation, we both seem to agree that the team with tweaking could have returned the Mets back into the potential ninety win category. What we seem to disagree with is the talent level of players were needed. The Mets certainly did not have to go after the expensive Cliff Lee-types to bolster their starting pitching and the same holds true for their relievers.
That is my only point – as you too recognize – that the sudden and probably never before experienced fiscal calamity made such moves impossible. Otherwise, the Mets would have been able to feel a post-season contending club while getting the prospects ready to bridge the transition in roster spots when necessary – even if that meant increasing the payroll to just below the tax threshold.
Business wise, it would have been a good investment for it would have brought in more fans and higher television ratings for SNY, resulting in increased prices for commercial advertising (which is based on Nielson and other rating firms). Also, it would have helped compensate for the debt. On Fareed Zakaria’s show this afternoon on CNN, British economists were talking about the measures their country took to reduce their own deficit by deep austerity cuts in spending. However, they cited that the U.S. actually slowed down the growth of our own deficit more than Great Britain by not cutting back on spending but by increasing it. The increase in spending resulted in more revenue slowing down that pace. Of course, the U.S. economy can afford to take more risks than that of Sterling Equities LOL but I’m just using that to counteract the argument that under different fiscal conditions spending more on the roster would not have been counter-productive for the Wilpons economic wise.
But mind you that from the beginning the Mets and Sandy were talking about the team itself needing to be rebuilt – not that they didn’t have the money to fill some holes or even just retain the players they had. And that leads to the point that separates the two camps here at MMO and I suppose most others as well. If the moves taken by Sandy in his first two years dealt less with talent but more with the ledger book, how can we have trust and have faith that the moves being made now are not for the same primary fiscal consideration (including retaining David Wright, of course) – and thus other possibly better moves could have been made instead?
Take in point the absence of other moves that fit into the pattern of finance over team personnel. One did not have to go after a Papplebaum or Bell but there were free agent relievers under 30 available last season that Sandy could have sought to go after – even if it meant just one. But then one could not cite age as a reason not to re-sign him unlike Takahashi, Capuano, Feliciano, Rauch, etc. when it came time for a new contract of bigger bucks and multiple years.
Those possibilities included Matt Capps, Jonothan Broxton, Jose Miljares. Mind you, I am not trying to be a general manager – just trying to point out that there are young players available in which a team can build itself up upon as part of a comprehensive rebuilding plan and that is an option Sandy is not pursuing.
One who is counting on mostly all prospects to rebuild a club is taking the measures of small market teams that have been going nowhere – Pittsburgh, Kansas City, San Diego and Oakland. Yes, Oakland hit pay dirt for the first time in six years but the question remains if they are for real or a one shot sensation (which many of us lived through after 1969). That’s why many of us contend that even if he was forced into a re-building plan, he is not taking all the steps necessary to do so.
Ciao
http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/year/2011/position/rp
Joey D.,
those are some valid points.
However, the difference between a rebuilding in a “small market” and the rebuilding in a “large market” is the ability to eventually add to your talent base without severe restrictions and being able to prolong a window of opportunity.
Whereas teams like KC, Oakland or Cleveland usually have to find a small window to contend and hope for everything to break right at nearly the same time, a franchise in a large market like the Mets has a much broader timeline and can afford more mistakes than a rebuilder from a small market.
What the Mets have lacked for a long time is a sustainable talent foundation in place. Wright, Reyes and Beltran were a nice foundation in 2005 – but unfortunately there was no sufficient pitching foundation in place to have a sustainable run. Kazmir was traded away before Beltran came. Santana wasn´t there yet. Niese was barely drafted and Pelfrey failed to develop in a way that was needed. Look at longterm winners like the Yankees (of the mid to late 90s), the Braves (of the entire 90s and early 00s), the SF Giants of recent years and even the Mets of the mid to late 80s. They all have had in common that they had developed a core group of impact and initially inexpensive young talent to build around and then add missing pieces via trades or free agency to take it to another level and sustain success going forward.
Obviously, if the Mets plan to operate with a payroll frozen in the 80 to 90 million $ per year range over the next 5 to 7 years, this rebuilding won´t go very far. Because even if you build a good young core, you won´t be able to keep it around longterm or supplement it with expensive missing pieces. In that case, might as well stick to the previous quick fix approach of the past 20 years that gives you a shortterm winner for a couple of years before collapsing again.
The Mets now have the golden opportunity to rebuild their organization from ground up. Create a promising nucleus for 2014 / 2015 that´s strengthened by both a lot of payroll flexibility (2014 commitments project to be around only 60 million $ for now) and a much deeper talent pool in the system to use as trade bait for shortterm impact pieces (2015 versions of Gary Carter and Bob Ojeda for example or ability to trade for the 2015 versions of Mat Latos or Gio Gonzalez for example) or help fill-out the roster with inexpensive fresh blood and thus being able to afford more expensive talent from the outside.
Now, one can debate whether the moves Alderson & Co. have made in this process have been good enough. Certainly one can question the intensity of keeping the present interesting enough as the future is being built. And certainly all this is coming at the expense of a solid, albeit not strong or inexpensive or young enough core of talent that Alderson & Co. inherited and had to sacrifice in the process.
Still, the general idea makes sense. And the plan to “develop the pitchers in large numbers and then buy the missing bats” seems sound as well. The first half is well on its way with two waves of promising young pitching in the system. One ready to strike right now and the next at some point in 2015 probably. The key will be coming up with the hitting side. Wright, Davis, Tejada and hopefully D´Arnaud should be longterm keepers. Whether Murphy, Nieuwenhuis or Duda or eventually Flores belong into that group remains to be seen – likewise whether there will be enough money to really “buy” bats when the time is right.
Which isn´t the current off-season. But which will either be the next off-season or at the very latest the 2014/2015 off-season.
HI Drd,
“However, the difference between a rebuilding in a “small market” and the rebuilding in a “large market” is the ability to eventually add to your talent base without severe restrictions and being able to prolong a window of opportunity.”
I am very depressed for everything we’ve been taking about as far as small market teams versus big market ones I think can be thrown out the window.
Did you know that the two most profitable teams in 2007 were the Washington Nationals and the Florida Marlins? And that for the four year period concluding in 2010 every team but Detroit made a profit? That included Kansas City, that included Pittsburgh, that included Oakland, that included the Mets too. Or that in 2009 the Twins, Cubs, Mets, White Sox, Padres, Dodgers, Nationals, Red Sox and Marlins made more than the Yankees?
Suggest reading the attached article. This new breed of general manager that Sandy is part of represents business. Baseball is a business. As the author points out, there are two goals: 1) make money off their ball club and 2) win world championships. He adds, however, “The order of importance of these two items depends on which owners and teams you are talking about.”
I think that applies to the Mets – they are the only franchise in the majors to have been burned by the Madoff scandal which overnight threw them into financial chaos. All the other teams had money to spend on players – if they wanted to. And as we have seen, many chose not to.. The Mets, in turn, don’t even have that option. They needed and still do need that money to pay off their debts for the income they counted on prior to the Madoff mess is completely gone.
Decades ago teams made money too and it was indeed run more like a game as a business. Now, with fortunes to be made, owners and general managers are going to run it like a business and that is what is making me so sad. It’s one thing the Mets making idiotic mistakes regardng player personnel that hurts the team on the field – but it’s another when less expensive moves are made (in terms of more “inexpensive” talent) because it is determined more profitable going that route.
And as pointed out, the Mets are the only team in the majors in which the owners are behind the eight ball like they are. Whatever feelings I have about the Wilpons personally, I have to agree with Bud Selig on one thing – they were victims in this one. If they weren’t, then we could look at the points made in terms of how they might work in a baseball sense for I do think the Wilpons would provide their baseball people with the money to make the moves they wanted – within reason, of course. But not at this point – or at least, with Sandy’s perspective on how to retain profitiability under these unusual circumstances, it is impossible.
http://jockpost.com/business-baseball/
And here I thought I had a chance for best looking Mets blogger…
Omars plan was clearly put forth in Adam Rubins “Omar, Pedro and Carlos” Omar thought that because Pedro was such a big hero in the DR all the young talent would come to the Mets to be with thier idol. So how did that work out? every baseball writer in existence at the time said it was just a matter of time until Pedro broke down. It took a year and a half.
The dominican talent flow has still not shown up 8 years later. The mark of a good GM is to leave the organization in better shape than when you came in. Omar came into a situation with 2 young all star players and plenty of financial stability. He left a bloated mess of a team that is still being cleaned up.
No Ray
Sandy can hire failures like Paul Depo and JP and rather than look at their disasterous records, people look at their college GPA’s….
Sandy hired his SON !!!!!
And there was not a peep from the same folks who were crying about preferential treatment as far back as October 3rd 2004
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gwIKQdTJb_4J:articles.nydailynews.com/2004-10-03/sports/18273207_1_hispanic-heritage-management-skills-jerry-manuel/2+Omar+Minaya+%22managerial+search%22+hispanic&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
================
DN:
A lot of the managerial candidates mentioned in reports, even if you haven’t acknowledged them, have Hispanic heritage. Carlos Tosca is interviewing this week. White Sox third base coach Joey Cora and former White Sox manager Jerry Manuel have been mentioned. Are you going to put particular emphasis on hiring a minority manager and furthering diversity in baseball?
OM:
No. That will have nothing to do with it. Good managing has nothing to do with heritage. It has to do with communication. It has to do with understanding.
DN:
You are in a position, though, to further diversity.
OM:
It doesn’t matter. You go out and try to find the best man for that particular job. To me, you become blind to race, color, religion. That should not play at all a role in making that decision.
==========================
Sorry Ray, but Adam Rubin made race the central issue from DAY ONE…and judging from the amount of attention his articles received, one can say his strategy worked.
Well, Omar hired Bernazard and Jerry. Hard to top that on the crapitude scale.
Tony Bernazard was actually a bud selig darling….
supposedly he was seen as the savior of the 1994 strike…bud was trying to get him in a team for the longest…
Same way Fred recommended Omar for the Montreal position. Bud from what i heard, made sure the mets hired him…
After being a union guy, who was also very pro-owner ( which is kinda odd ) Tony had the hookup with MLB suits
Bud tried getting Tony a GM job with the Pirates in 2007 ( no luck ),
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/pirates/2-interview-for-pirates-gm-spot-501780/
the Mariners in 2008 ( no luck )
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2008/10/new_york_mets_vp_tony_bernazar.html
Then Adam Rubin dug up the story about Tony and the minor league kids…and now Tony works for Scott Boras…
Tony from day one was doing everything to sabotage Omar….that doesnt sound like 2 long-life friends
there was an interview in sports illustrated where Omar is talking about filling out his staff…
one guy was Sandy Johnson from Texas, his mentor….he goes off for a few paragraphs on Sandy
the other guy was Tony B, he had just 2 lines and was very short…
Sandy was the guy who hired Omar in Texas
There is a reason why the Mets ( via Bud ) are the only team to ever employ Tony Bernarzard, and why Omar ( who has connections all over the place ) is sought after by most of the leagu
When Omar was here, we had folks wondering what his grades in HS were…why he never went to college…
http://messages.yahoo.com/Recreation_%26_Sports/Sports/Baseball/Teams/threadview?m=tm&bn=7737352&tid=74430&mid=74430&tof=7&rt=2&frt=2&off=1
When the Rangers, Marlins, Dodgers and a dozen other teams have latin themed nights, its not a problem…
when the mets do it…baseball fans have their panties in a bunch
http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/los-mets-has-omar-minaya-lost-his-mind-was-it-a-mistake-for-a-mlb-team-like-the-mets-to-get/question-1150573/
sorry pal…
but baseball will NEVER look like it did from 1890-1980….
Its more likely to look like boxing, basketball and football in 20 more years…the FEAR of that probably makes you vomit
the fact that Omar was the GM just made him the scapegoat for those insecurities
What planet are you from? I loved the fact that Omar is Latino. You cannot really believe that people judged him unfairly because he’s latin? Nothing could be further from the truth. The times I heard people really get on his speach was when he went after Rubin. That was an incredibly stupid move on his part and all the crap he took for it was well deserved. I’m not a fan of the Wilpons, but I wouldn’t have been shocked had they canned right after that stunt.
Any reason for this ?
DN:
A lot of the managerial candidates mentioned in reports, even if you haven’t acknowledged them, have Hispanic heritage. Carlos Tosca is interviewing this week. White Sox third base coach Joey Cora and former White Sox manager Jerry Manuel have been mentioned. Are you going to put particular emphasis on hiring a minority manager and furthering diversity in baseball?
OM:
No. That will have nothing to do with it. Good managing has nothing to do with heritage. It has to do with communication. It has to do with understanding.
DN:
You are in a position, though, to further diversity.
OM:
It doesn’t matter. You go out and try to find the best man for that particular job. To me, you become blind to race, color, religion. That should not play at all a role in making that decision.
Yes.
My reason was since you brought up race (Why am I not Shocked?) I wanted to make it crystal clear to you that NOTHING could be further from the truth. I certainly will NEVER accused of thinking that Omar’s performance or his being let go had anything to do with his Latinoness. Not sure why you feel the need to constantly jump to the race card? Something you want to tell us? Any skeletons in your closet? I’m here for you.
excellent, so yes you can agree that Omar faced a bit more criticism than the average bear ….especially because of his skin color…
unless you think there was another reason he was called a raisist from as back as october 2004
http://blogcritics.org/sports/article/new-york-mets-gm-omar-minaya/
No. I don’t agree! Unless of course you’re willing to agree that part of the reason he may have gotten he job was because of his skin color? He flat out said hiring Willie Randolph as the first minority manager of the Mets was very important to him.
LMAO
right, please explain why Omar was called a reverse race-ist and had every one of his signings under a microscope….when there were 9 other GM’s in baseball that had more latinos on their rosters in 2005 ?
o and as far as him being hired b/c of his skin color?
He TURNED DOWN the Met GM position in 2002 + 2003 when the Wilpons wanted him…they were seeking Omar for 3 straight years, never even interviewed anyone else. Now the fact that they had known him for over 5 years….and the fact that they brought him ( and Jim Duquette ) in specifically to help out Steve Phillips in my opinion speaks volumes of the respect Fred ( jeff was never a Omar fan ) had for him.
For the record..I was never in favor of Wille Randolph, only b/c he was under Joe Torre…and in the AL, with Torre…it was more about managing ego’s than lineups and bullpens….I felt Willie needed the experience of being a manager either in a smaller market or in the minors for a few years. He was too thin-skinned for NY….
But lets face it…had Omar hired Manny Acta….this town would’ve gone bananas with the charges of favoritism…
thats the bad part about not being white…u cant just hire or sign whoever u want…b/c if the person has the same background as u…u will get accused of preferential treatment…aside from omar, I have never seen anyone ever do that with a gm…he really scared the bejesus out of yall…well get prepared because the next 20 years are going to be more and more and more of the same…
que viva los mets
jdd
once again people who disagree with you are racists, bigots, fools or idiots who dont know baseball. Read the book. there are plenty of quotes from omar saying that was his plan. of course i know you dont want to be confused by the facts, so never mind.
>>Omar thought that because Pedro was such a big hero in the DR all the young talent would >>come to the Mets to be with thier idol.
Guys in DR, like guys in the USA, also go to the team that pays them more…..the mets were 3rd from the bottom in IFA spending ( and still Omar gets Tejada, Mejia, Valdespin, Familia )
Omar with 1 hand behind his back is better than Sandy and the rest of his goons
What Omar’s point was, was that the mets after DECADES of being damn near invisible in DR would finally have a presence there…and also on the MLB level. Pedro and Beltran were symbolic because it said to the baseball world that the mets are open to Hispanic stars being the face of the franchise.
>>So how did that work out? every baseball writer in existence at the time said it was just a >>matter of time until Pedro broke down. It took a year and a half.
>>The dominican talent flow has still not shown up 8 years later.
Again, when u rank 3rd from last in total IFA spending…and this is when the wilpons were raking in the dough….u have to shop at the bottom of the barrel ….and omar STILL gets wilmer flores, mejia, valdespin, etc
>>>The mark of a good GM is to leave the organization in better shape than when you came in.
Well, the 2011 Mets were eons better than the 2004 Mets…
>>>Omar came into a situation with 2 young all star players and plenty of financial stability.
And Sandy inherited THE SAME 2 Young All-Star Players..along with a Cy Young candidate…a great young pitcher in Niese, another in Ike…Murphy hits .330 in Sandy’s 1st year…
>>>>>>He left a bloated mess of a team that is still being cleaned up.
and what did Sandy leave behind in Oakland? in San Diego?
What did Paul Depo leave behind in San Diego?
What did JP leave behind in Toronto?
Most folks give AA praise for CLEANING UP DEPO’s MESS !!!
Omar >>>>> The Firm
WOW! I may be wrong but aren’t you one of the ones railling against the “prospects” we are banking on? How they can’t be counted on (forgive me if I’m wrong as I didn’t go back and research all your comments and I admit I may just be inadvertantly lumping you in with others.)? I agree that they cannot be counted on until the either produce in the bigs or net you something that is a need and value. But you cannot pound your chest about brag about Flores, Valdespin, and Mejia. Combined, they’ve done a grand total of NOTHING! Also you may not like SA (that’s fair) but to say, “he inherited a GREAT young pitcher in Niese and another in Ike” is pure hyperbole. If you’re calling them GREAT, I don’t care how you spin it David Wright should already be enshrined in Cooperstown.
show me a like showing the mets ranking in ifa s under omar then. Sorry if i dont take your word for it. tejada is from panama not DR and none of the others you mention Flores, mejia, valdespin have proven to be major leaguers never mind impact players.
Padres have the 2nd highest rated minor league system.Toronto also was stacked and the mets have gotten 2 of the best prospects now in their system from the jays.
Reyes and wright were no longer young and cheap when SA took over
every point you make is bogus and I dont expect baseball to be all white as you accuse. you cant win so you lie and name call. thats all you can do. Omars plan was a failure thats all i said and sorry to confuse you with that very clear fact.
Ray
Good point about Tejada being from Panama. To that, isn’t Flores from Venezuela?
I am sorry have I missed all the good international signings from our current front office?
And honestly if you think kids in Panama and Venezuela don’t look up to Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran you’re just not very smart
Nothing to do with looking up to Pedro and Carlos. Even though we may not be very smart we are well aware of that, but thanks for reminding us. He specifically mentioned the academy in the DR and Dominican players. He lumped in Tejada and Flores as Dominican signings (at least appeared that way). Ray then cleared up Tejada and I mentioned Flores. We are also aware that Beltran isn’t Dominican. Who’s not so smart now, Einstein?
the mets were 3rd from the bottom in IFA spending ( and still Omar gets Tejada, Mejia, Valdespin, Familia )
IFA SPENDING
Not DOMINICAN SPENDING !!
Just
This was the line DIRECTLY before you’re comment about the Mets being third from the bottom…
“>>The dominican talent flow has still not shown up 8 years later.”
That is why it appeared you were specifically speaking of Dominican players.
It’s not like you to omit something to try to make your point.
i see no reason to cherry pick what country they came from.
what if a latino kid from the bronx signed with us in the draft b/c after he met Beltran via his RBI program in NYC
do we attribute that to Beltran?
do we attribute that to the scouts?
Notice how the Yankees are able to sign TOP local talent in the area….
its not because they are hispanic…its because their scouts are able to recognize talent and maybe use the sentimentality aspect to their advantage a little
Guaranteed if David Wright was drafted by the Orioles or Phillies, we would hear stories of how he was a Cal Ripken or Mike Schmidt fan growing up right next to those markets…
David didnt sign with us because he was a met fan…he signed with us because we offered him enough money as a 1st round supp pick to convince him, his family, his agents that it was worth the risk.
To me, signing Pedro was more about telling the rest of the league that we were serious about winning, and the rest of the latin world, that we were ready to stop neglecting them and treating them as if they didnt exist.
that last part is something most white folks never understand. The Mets for decades were non-factors in latin america….and there was a perception that the mets were putting out a product that was based more on marketing towards the avg white guy with 3 kids and a dog in Islandia.
That perception is something that they heard as back as the 80′s….
their reaction to it was frighteningly horrible…as they traded Lenny for Juan Samuel, partly to draw in more hispanic fans as attendance started to dwindle in 1989..
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1137963/index.htm
The mets had avg 3 mil per year in attendance ( first NY team EVER to do that )…
In 1989, those numbers started to drop..
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1987-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1988-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1989-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1990-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1991-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1992-misc.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1993-misc.shtml
This is why in my opinion, signing pedro was half production and half marketing ( as most mets moves are. )
For a brief moment, the marketing element was aimed at folks just a lil bit darker, and for that for YEARS white fans were complaining and moaning about it..
its rooted in the same reason why the Impossible ( an incredible movie by the way ) altered the cast to tailor towards a white audience….
based on a true story, about a spanish family..
the entire film crew was spanish
Juan Antonio Bayona
the person who wrote the screenplay was spanish Sergio G. Sánchez
While the film shows events almost exactly how they happened, it did go through one major alteration. Filmmakers decided to change the original Spanish family to an English one. Says Sánchez,
“We didn’t know if we were going to get the financing to make this film. That first draft was in Spanish. Even in that first draft, 80% of the dialogue was in English because after the wave comes, that’s the language everyone would use to communicate.”
http://veryaware.com/2012/12/interview-naomi-watts-ewan-mcgregor-j-a-bayona-sergio-g-sanchez-belen-atienza-maria-belon-talk-the-impossible/
The Mets have traditionally treated the team like a Hollywood production.
There is 1 main star….who is likeable and nice….and kisses the babies….
he has a supporting cast….who are quiet ( or else ) and dont get in the way
and there are villains …most likely the other team but to make it interesting, sometimes guys on the mets are too ( see ike davis, beltran, bonilla, cone, kent, etc )
If this concept is a bit too deep for most folks to swallow…i understand…
That was after the Padres traded for half of Boston’s minor league system…Paul Depo had 0 to do that with that…
and IFA’s are IFA’s…it doesnt matter if they are from Africa, Germany or DR..
O and guess who Tejada is currently training with?
None other than Jose Reyes…
and that has what to do with this conversation? Im still waiting for a link stating the mets were third lowest in international signing dollars spent in omars regime.
“Padres have the 2nd highest rated minor league system.”
Ray Sadecki
What did THAT have to do with the conversation?
Sandy and his boy toy had NOTHING to do with the Padres having the 2nd highest rated minor league system
Name ONE Paul Depo draft signing from SD ?
check out Paul Depo’s assessment of Allan Dykstra
At the time the Padres drafted Dykstra, Paul DePodesta wrote on his blog that he, “has monster power. Most importantly, he has skills to go along with that raw power. … Allan has had an unbelievably consistent collegiate career, as he’s hit at least 15 homers while also drawing at least 50 walks in each of his three seasons – something nobody else in this draft has done….Given his size, power, and patience, comparisons have been drawn to Jim Thome.”
Before he signed with the Padres, Dykstra was diagnosed with a degenerative hip condition, avascular necrosis.
Your boy is a FAILURE who couldn’t shine Omar’s shoes
and who did we trade for in 2011?
ALLAN DYKSTRA !!!!
how about Brad Eamus…where did he come from?
O yeah, JP drafted him in Toronto…
Nice ( fabo voice )
When Sandy got there in 2005 their farm system was ranked 30th. When he left after 09 it was ranked 13th. The trades they made helped get them into the top 5 but to say Sandy had nothing to do with it is inaccurate. Matt Latos deal brought them back a huge haul. Latos was drafted when Sandy was there. As was Headley, Luebke, Hundley, Freese, Forsythe, Decker. Their #1 prospect was signed in 2007 Liriano and #7 Portillo also in 07. Another IFA Edison Rincon also signed in 07. And DePo did not run their drafts when he was there. It was Bill Gayton, Jaron Madison and Grady Fuson. DePo was an assistant GM and VP.
wait so …
“The trades they made helped get them into the top 5 but to say Sandy had nothing to do with it is inaccurate”
and then u said… And DePo did not run their drafts when he was there. It was Bill Gayton, Jaron Madison and Grady Fuson.
I can understand u saying he shouldnt get the blame…but now so ur saying that Sandy gets the credit for a draft he didnt run ?
Yup, Sandy got fans !!!
No that’s not what I’m saying. I posted articles numerous times from NC Times in SD showing Alderson’s role with SD and their draft. How he changed their drafting philosophy. He didn’t run their draft but was heavily involved. The names I mentioned are who ran their drafts. It sure wasn’t DePo.
Jose Reyes was discovered by Toledo. Anyone giving Omar credit for Reyes is crazy. Omar simply helped negotiate his signing bonus. It’s stuff that ass’t GMs do everyday, including Ricco. So, first, you have to give Philips credit for Reyes since he was the GM. Then Toledo. Anyone trying to give Omar credit for Reyes is really desperate and reaching.
JOE D….. AS REGASRDS OMAR’S DRAFT CHOPICE SELECTIONS NOT BEING THE MOST TALENTED; I CERTAINLY FEEL THE NEED TO REMIND EVERYONE IT WASN’T MINAYA WHO STOOD TO ATENTIOM, SALUTED SELIG & SAID “YES, SIR” THIS ORAGASNIZATION WILL GLADLY FOLLOQW YOUR VOLUNTARY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR SLOT QUALIFYING ALL DRAFT BONUS COMMITMENTS! I BELIEVE THAT WAS A FRED MANDATE, WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO ACTUALLY HAVE CASH IN HIS POCKET INSTEAD OF MADOFF PORTFOLIO PERMORNCE UDATES PRINTED WITH “INVISIBLE INK” LOL
I FACT, OMAR MINAYA WAS EXACTLY WHAT HIS ESUME’ CLAIMED HE WAS, A TOP SCOUT WITH A GOOD EYE TOWARDS PRODUCTION EXPECTATIONS WITH ZERO EXPERTYISE IN CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS OR BUSINESS MNGT. HELL, AS A NYM ASS’T GM TO PHILLIPS, CONTRACTS WERE PHILIPS’ SPECIFIC VENUE WHEREAS PHILLIOPS ALAYS RECOGNIZED HIS NEED FOR A TALENT COUNTERPART BE IT JHOE McILVANE OR LATER, OMAR MINAYA.
FOOTYNOTE TO Metro12..,. WHILE TOLEDO MAY HAVE ULTIMATELY INKED REYES, IT WAS MINAYA WHO NYM GM PHILLIPS CHARGED WITH ESTABLISHING THE FIRST DOMINICAN ACADEMY THE INTIAL POINT OF “REYES CONTACT”
DAMN, HISTORY IS AMAZING WHEN U PAY ATTENTION TO IT…
So is a typing class.
The Caps are for a disability.
Don’t assume.
I don’t mean to be offensive, but I don’t get this. Does mets62 have a psychological need to have the caps lock on? I don’t see how having a disability would make somebody type in all caps.
You’re an idiot as your screen name suggests. I wish his affliction upon you and your family so that in it you may find the humility and passion lacking in your being.
I believe it is for personal accommodation. Some people can’t hold more than one key at the same time, and thus, their keyboard is permanently locked on. For others, it just makes it easier for them to see everything.
I do not know what the exact issue that plagues 62 is, but on multiple occasions, he has been forced to state it. I never figured to pry into his personal life because I saw no need. 62 has always been respectful and polite, overall and to me personally, so I get a little edgy when people say things like “take a typing class.”
Ok.
And you can go screw off Andrew. No need to be super-fake nice just because someone has a problem.
How long has it been since you popped out of your mother’s womb? 12 years? 15 years? That’s what you sound like to me.
Are you a mod here? By all rights you should ban such shallow people. You dont need to attract more asses to the site as you already have 2-3 of them here already. It’s shameful to hurl insults at defenseless and disabled people cloaked by the internet on their parents paid for computers.
Whatever, let’s forget this
I agree. Let’s end this here.
Andrew, I’m a writer here. I understand where you’re coming from and why you’re upset. However, it wasn’t a direct insult and not grounds for a banning.
As somebody who works with people with disabilities I’ll tell you that some of the reasons a person may type in all CAPS is because they want to be able to re-read what they type. Also, the ability to hold down more than 1 key at a time plays a factor.
LOL,
To say such things about anyone is intolerable and cruel. Met62 once addressed the issue that causes him to use upper casing because he was aware that it could also be indicative of shouting. However, I wrote back that he owed nobody an explanation for anything for he has always been a gentleman in responding to others whether agreeing with them or not and that is what one should look for in the character of a person, not his key strokes.
Unfortunately, there are a few on MMO who use the Mets as an excuse to taunt, belittle and humiliate others who disagree with them and is representative of their own arrogant and infantile behavior. If you were curious as to why, that is one thing, but to ostracize a respectful individual for the use of upper casing is completely inexcusable.
^ This.
I always wanted to do that!
SRT and her “This” has been adopted by many. A testament to how popular she is.
This!
How popular she is??? Had not been for some of us who mocked her continuing assault of the wilpons and blaming them from everything i don’t think noone else would’ve used THIS. If anything, thank US , the desert nor its members would be as popular without our help. If anything, YOU’RE WELCOME!
LOL? U MUST BE RELATIVLY NEW TO THESE BOARDS; HOWEVER, AS MY MONIKER REFERENCING ’62 WAS NOT CHOSEN BECAUSE I STUMBLED UPON OLD FILM FOOTAGE & LIKED WHAT I SAW; BUT BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THOSE DESPERATE CRESTFALLEN BROOKLYN DODGER FANS STRANDED SANS A TEAM TO ROOT FOR; BASICLY MEANING, MY YOUNG FRIEND, I’VE BEEN AROUND THE NYM NEIGHBORHOOD FROM DAY #1, 1962 AND AS SUCH, I BELIEVE I HAVE A RELATIVELY UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.
AS TO YOUR BEING A RELATIVE NEWCOMER, HERE, I HAVE JUST ONE BIT OF ADVICE, HERE @ MMO, DESPITE THE LENGTH & BREADTH OF YOUR NYM PERSPECTIVE U SHOULD CERTAINLY HAVE YOUR OPINIONS JUDGED ON THEIR SINGULAR MERIT; NOT ON YOUR PHRASEOLOGY, GRAMMAR, TYPEFACE/STYLE; BUT ON WHAT U STATE, NOT HOW. AND JUST LIKE ANY CIRC\UMSTANCE IN LIFE, U MAY FIRST WANT TO FIND OUT HOW DEEP THE WATER IS BEFORE U DISCARD YOUR LIFEJACKET & SPIT IN THE LIFEGUARD’S FACE OTHERWISE, MY FRIEND, THE KEY QWUESTION MAY BE THE SAME ONE NOAH ONCE NEEDED TO FACE…HOW LONG CAN U TREAD WATER?
NOW, IF I WERE TO BE MEANSPIRITED HERE I’D SUGGEST YOUR CHOICE OF MONIKER”LOSS OF LOGIC” SHOWED ONLY MICROSCOPIC AMOUNTS OF INGENUITY & IMAGINATION DESPITE OBFISCATING ANY DEPTH OF NYM RELATIVITY.
IN THE FUTURE, MY FRIEND, SHOULD U CONTINUE TO TAKE ISSUE WITH MY MOST COFORTABLE CHOICE OF TYPESTYLE, I RECOMMEND U SKIP THE POSTING ALTOGETHER & LEAVE IT TO THOSE WHO WOULD PREFER TO DEBATE MERITORIOUSLY AS I’M FAR FROM THE ONLY ORIG 62er ON THESE BOARDS.
I never understood why somebody typing in caps whether a disability or not should bother anybody else. Who gives a shit how they type it.
I know the year is only six days old, but I nominate this for the comment of the year.
Many times I’ve been asked the question of don’t I think Sandy Alderson wants to win. My answer was of course he does, but there are certain priorities he has to deal with that makes winning become secondary.
However, it just occurred to me now, reading over the earlier attached article (posted again below) about the corporate nature of the modern day general manager, my answer is more that it’s not a question of wanting to win as it is that being almost irrelevant with the situation he was brought in to resolve.
He is a business person concerned with making money for his bosses. If that means having to do so with the team on the field having to suffer, so be it. He isn’t here to run a baseball team, he’s here to run a business. Had circumstances been otherwise, he would have looked at it from a financially cost-effective standpoint and then allowed his baseball people to act accordingly within it. But with things being the way they are – and will be for quite a number of years to come – if getting his bosses out of the red and allowing them to meet their massive debt obligations means extensive cut backs in spending that will most likely produce mediocre ball clubs, he will do it.
As the article said, decades ago general managers were baseball men concerned about winning and today that has changed with the general manager concerned about running a business like a business. At this point, it seems he feels re-investing in players to draw more fans and more revenue is not the best way to get his employers out of the massive financial hole they are in.
So I think I had been giving Sandy too much credit, feeling his desire to win was as much as anyone else’s . From his perspective, re-investing in the team personnel is a business decision, not a competitive one and that he has to separate himself from the competitive nature of the sport. Once he retires, he can than root for the Mets to win without any strings attached to it. But right now, he has to concentrate on the business at hand. He did it in Oakland, he did it San Diego and he is doing it now with the Mets.
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/The-GM-Revolution_8672/p/3
Joey perhaps what you should say is….
He wants to Win he just isn’t going to go out of his way to get it!
Kind of like me right now…I would love to have a Big Mac right now but I don’t want to get into the car to go drive and get it…..
I Still want it but I’m not going to get it due to my poor attitude towards making what I want happen for me….
Pretty much what I’ve been saying all along, Joey.
If circumstances were different, I don’t believe SA would have ever been the GM.
He’s already been there, done that – as far as being a GM. He had what was probably a cushy, less stressful job at MLB. I can’t imagine he decided on his own to toss his hat in the ring to become the next GM of the Mets. I believe he was asked by Selig to come here and do exactly what he’s been doing……which was cut expenses while the Wilpons tried to tread water.
SRT -
Yup – you nailed it! Couldn’t agree more.
Duuuuuuuuuuuh Santan’s deal was 137.5 for 6 and Wright’s is 138 for 8. Who makes more again? Johan 23 per and Wright 17.25 yeah Wright makes more. lol
- Fonzie13
Because Salary was deferred…
2008 – Santana was paid 14 mil
2009 – Santana was paid 15 mil
2010 – Santana was paid 16 mil
2011 – Santana was paid 17.5 mil
2012 – Santana was paid 19 mil
2013 – Santana was paid 20.5 mil
2013 – Wright will be paid 8 mil
2014 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2015 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2016 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2017 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2018 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2019 – Wright will be paid 18 mil
2014 – Wright will be paid 13 mil
2014 – Wright will be paid 10 mil
Wright signed a contract that is worth MORE money
If Johan signs a 3 year 30 mil contract…and Wright signs a 30 year 300 mil contract…technically they are both the same annual salary…but one contract is worth more than the other
THIS is just one example of you bullshitting folks to make a point…
and u were the same guy that said u wouldnt pay Wright more than 5 years 90+ mil…and if he wanted more u would trade him…
then Sandy does the complete opposite…and u whip out the 5th amendment
The Firm may now call their witness to the stand
Yep I said I wouldn’t give him more than 5 years. I didn’t did I. Santana averaged nearly 6 million per more. The contracts value is 500K more but the avg annual salary isn’t close. Oh and by the way the 3 yr 30 yr comparison is totally retarded but that’s to be expected with you. I guess that’s what happens when you drop out before highschool. You should change your name to Jus Da damn a-hole.
if a guy signs a contract for MORE YEARS which adds up to….hold on…lets wait….are u ready for this….
MORE MONEY….it means he is going to get paid MORE MONEY
now the fact that Santana’s contract is essentially lowered in present day value due to the deferred payment plan only FURTHER drives home that point…and YOU KNOW THIS
so yes, this is a case where you were caught b-s’ing !
David Wright is the highest paid player in franchise history…David will own that title until someone signs a contract that guarantees them MORE MONEY than 138 million dollars
I will also further point out that in November, you said that you would TRADE DAVID WRIGHT
( hey now we have something in common ) if David asked for more than 5/90
David was NOT traded, he was extended. So…according to Our standards, The SandyMan ( or lets be fair, the Wilpons ) made a mistake…
Glad to see we got that all cleared up buttercup
Big Smile
Biiiiig Smile
Would you like me to go fishing for more contradictory incorrect statements from you ?
So because I said Johan at 23 per makes more than Wright 17.25 per, that means I make stuff up? Is that the best you got? Wright ‘s contract was for 500K more than Santana’s but it’s going to take him 2 more years to make that 500K more but because I said Johan at 23 mil a year for 6 makes more than Wright’s 17.25 for 8. Wow you really showed me. LMFAO. Way to make a fool out of yourself.
Sort of like when you accused me of making shit up when I said Sandy signed 34 IFA’s last year and then I completely shut you up with each players name, position and date of signing.
This one is even funnier. I said I would’ve traded Wright if I could’nt get him to sign for 5 years. He gets signed for 8 years (Not by me) and that’s proof that I make stuff up? LMFAO. I knew you weren’t that bright but thanks for truly confirming it.
Oh I see I was supposed to rant and rave like a 5 year old that Mr Dimples was resigned like you and Alex do everyday. No I started to enjoy the fact that resigning Wright is burning you and Alex’s arse. I also enjoy how you obsess over double standards and how every poster you get into a debate with hands you your lunch.
Yes please show me more of my contradictory posts. You did so well here. LOL or CMC.
So because I said Johan at 23 per makes more than Wright 17.25 per, that means I make stuff up?
Someone said Wright was the highest paid player in franchise history
You Pointing to an an avg annual salary that doesnt account for deferred salary and lowers present day value is making shit up
deal with it
Johan’s contract
2008 16.9
2009 18.8
2010 21.1
2011 21.6
2012 24.00
2013 25.5
2014 25.0 option or 5.5 buyout
Which year does Wright make 25 million again? Yeah I completely make shit up.
And you do realize that each year that salary is deferred is with compounded interest which he starts collecting in 2015-2020. He’ll still be on the books along with Wrights entire extension.
yup…and wright will also be on the books til 2028…with the same compounded interest deal…
Wright got paid more
#caseclosed
“This contract doesn’t kick in until 2014 anyway when over 40 million comes off the books.”
2 things are wrong with this statement…
1 – the contract includes 2013 ( although Wright deferred salary )…so the contract kicks in 2013..
2 – Exactly how does 40 mil come “off the books” in 2014 ?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tfJWfaPG4VXbDyBscIZf1MQ&output=html
Looking at this spreadsheet…u see Jason Bay at 18 mil…but we know Jason Bay is not getting paid 18 mil this year…thats sliced in half…
this spreadsheet also shows Santana being paid 25 mil…lets take out 5 mil because we KNOW he is NOT getting THAT until another 7 years…
thats 20 + 9 off the books…
now u can play all the games u want with Santana’s 5.5 mil buyout…count it towards this off-season when the free-agent market was actually decent in the area of need…or count it towards next off-season when its all dried up
I almost forgot John Buck + FF who combine to make 13 mil…but I remembered that some of our players will be hitting arb…along with Wright being paid 18 mil up from 8…along with Niese getting a 2 mil raise…so…that pretty much cancels that out…
the reason ur statement is BS is because the payroll in 2013 is smaller than what it appears…kinda like Wright in the crunch !
“Well do you get Wheeler if Omar doesn’t bring Beltran here?
Who really should get the credit? Could Sandy get him without Beltran?”
If Omar had still been there as GM, there is no way he trades one of his high-profile free agents in the middle of the season. Omar would either have simply let Beltran walk at the end of the year or tried to re-sign him at a lower salary. Omar was incapable of trading away or releasing his OWN expensive acquisitions. Not talking about the cheaper players, but rather ones making a couple of million or more or those on multi-year contracts.
And even if one were to trade away Beltran, I doubt Omar would have gotten back a playerof Wheeler’s level. He would have blinked first and accepted quantity over quality and gotten back maybe 1 or 2 players at the next level.
This tendency to give Omar credit for things so removed from his tenure is ludicrous. Same thing goes for trying to give Omar credit for Reyes.
If you;’re not the active GM, the only time you should get credit for an acquisition is if you directly played a key role in acquiring the player. Key role meaning scouting or discovering someone. Omar merely handled the bonus talks. Toledo gets the credit for Reyes, along with Phillips. Alderson gets the credit for Wheeler. And he should get the credit for D’Arnaud and Syndergaard.
I give you Wagner as a prime example.
“Omar was incapable of trading away or releasing his OWN expensive acquisitions.”
Billy Wagner says hi !
You’re joking aren’t you? Wagner had just one month left when traded, and had just come off 1 year of inactivity due to TJ surgery. They had no intention of re-signing him. Moreover, Wagner kind of makes my point that Omar wasn’t that good parlaying assets into good or better ones. Who did the Mets get back for Wagner? I can’t even remember. LOL.
(Was it C. Carter?)
The Mets had an option on Wagner with a buyout which they wanted to avoid, I believe just as they wanted to avoid Wagner possibly accepting salary arbitration with K-Rod already on board. The Red Sox weren´t that worried in spite of having Papelbon around, gave us Chris “The Animal” Carter and a non-prospect from Rookie Ball, got Wagner for the stretch drive, offered him arbitration and later got the Braves 1st round pick (20th overall, used on 3b Kolbrin Vitek) and a supplemental 1st rounder (39th overall, used on RH Anthony Ranaudo) from the 2010 June draft.
Now, while the two picks don´t look very promising right now, they could also have selected current top prospects such as Christian Yelich (MIA) or Nick Castellanos (DET) with them.
At the time, I was terrified to hang on to Wagner because I was almost certain he was going to be forced to accept arbitration and the Wilpons had already slashed the payroll. Now the best thing that might have happened was to keep him, him accept it and tie up enough money to where Omar couldn’t blow it.
Thanks for the info. That option year and buyout are all the more reason to trade Wagner with just one month to go in the season.
For some reason, Omar was into offering arbitration to players. He rarely did it, and that’s why he never was able to replenish draft picks he lost by signing free agents (unlike GMs such as Cashman and Epstein).
So Wagner was a different situation than Beltran. Especially since the Mets still had a glimmer of hope, however faint, at the time they traded away Beltran.
Most of the time the reason Omar didn’t was because he was afraid the player would accept it… LOL. By the time they were leaving the Mets they were dangerous as hell.
Also, Wagner and Beltran were different because you couldn’t offer Beltran arbitration.
Yes, exactly. Omar had a habit of signing a lot of aging and injury prone players. So when their contracts ran out, he couldn’t risk offering most of them arbitration. During Omar’s tenure, the Mets must have been near the bottom in MLB in terms of number of compensation picks. So losing so many early round picks by signing free agents, without getting comp picks back, is one reason why the Mets spending on the draft was relatively low when Omar was GM. There is a good reason other than the Wilpons preference to stay under slot.
Yup, I was using Wagner as an example to prove your point Metro. Too bad someone else missed it. LOL.
Yet it proves ours doesn’t it?
mean how much different is Wagner with an Option they didn’t want to take with Beltran who had no option at all?
Not a lot when it comes down to it….Both were likely not going to be resigned Trading both would appear to have no hinderance in re-signing both if they wanted to pay….
So your example really makes the case for saying Omar WOULD trade one of his darlings the only difference being he might re-Sign Beltran in FA where Wagner he had already replaced and moved on from.
Does it? Big difference trading someone at the end of July with the team still with an outside chance,however slim … vs. someone at the end of August who had 1 month left and the team being totally out of things.
Also, Beltran was younger and had more useful life left in him while Wagner was pretty much at the end of the line. IOW, there was a good chance if Omar had stayed on as GM that he would have tried to re-sign Beltran, which would not have been a bad idea if he could have been had at a much lower price. But there was no chance of resigning Wagner after his TJ surgery.
Not really as big a difference as you think..
He gave up MORE by trading Wagner than he would have lost by trading Beltran….
He wanted to AVOID having to deal with Wagner’s option….
He HAD no option with Beltran in fact there was NO WAY he could guarantee he would re-sign….
An Option he had with Wagner and gave up on because he had already got his replacement and moved on…
Omar (and truth is Sandy as well) had nothing to lose by trading Beltran as far as Beltran himself was concerned. Both could have re-signed him in FA no matter if they traded him or not.
Because they had no option to offer Arbitration and get compensated for losing him….
With Wagner they HAD the option but didn’t want to risk Wagner taking it and being stuck with a Closer they didn’t need….
SO in Wagner’s case they got thier comp without having to deal with his Option and Beltran was traded (and would have been) for the same reasons as Wagner was…To get the Compensation they couldn’t get due to the contract of the player in question.
The only thing that might have kept Beltran here was Omar might have ADDED talent to the team at the time instead of having the selloff Sandy did…
K-Rod might still be here if Omar was still running the show….
Thats about ALL you can say on that the rest is mere convenient speculation to fit your agenda…
Wagner had a poison pill option they didn’t want to deal with to get compensated and Beltran had a poison pill in his contract that denied them getting compensation….
Both were pretty much similar in that they could lose both without compensation if they didn’t trade them early…
And Wagner was by CHOICE that they didn’t want to take that option….They had no choice with Beltran making it even MORE likely they make the trade.
If it’s something you don’t want, then how is it a lot to give up? Something is a lot to give up ONLY if you value it. In this case, there was not much value left in Wagner since they didn’t want his option and feared both his age and recent TJ surgery.
That’s like saying a trade of Nickeas was “a lot to give up.” Obviously that’s an exaggeration, but you get my point.
As for Beltran, he was on good terms with Omar, and Beltran said himself before he was traded that he was interested in coming back to the Mets. So while there is no guarantee he would come back, the Mets had a leg up on him since he stated he wanted to come back, and he had established homes and roots in NY.
And, sure, there was a LOT to lose by trading Beltran. Basically the rest of the season. And while the Mets were a long shot, they still had an outside chance at least. And it was not in Omar’s nature to give up on a season.
And, as I said, even if Omar would have made a painful (for him) decision to trade Beltran, I can’t envision him making nearly as good a deal as Alderson made with Beltran. Omar wasn’t very good with trades. He was just OK. Carter turned out to be crap.
And, btw, there was a buyout on Wagner. So they weren’t as locked into an option as you think. There was a way out.
And of course I’m speculating. Just like you and everyone else do all the time. I believe my speculation is much better than yours!
Good Terms?
You forget that whole incident about getting the Operation (he should have had months before) and the big todo over beltran doing it and the team complaining?
That was water under the bridge, as was the incident with the veterans hospital. I really think Beltran would have signed on with the Mets again had Omar stayed. Look at how little he got from St. Louis. Plus, it really seemed like he had grown to like NY by the end.
Hi Metro,
You are right. When discussing this with Jessep who also believed Beltran wanted out, I posted quotes from two articles in which he said he wanted to stay a Met – one from before he was to meet with Sandy in December, 2010 and the other just a few days before the trade was made. Anything hinting of that being lip-service is pure speculation since we were never given the opportunity to see if that was so.
Whatever problems he had with the organization was water under the bridge by that time – but he was gone no matter if Zack Wheeler never entered the picture. Sandy was shopping him around that November and said after the trade with the Giants that he would have considered money if he couldn’t get the type of prospects the club was looking for in return (posted the article with that quote a few months ago).
Look Metro I’m with you and Joey as well that Beltran wou have resiged with us if we had made a similar offer as he got….
In fact I have made a knock on Sandy for not tying to eat the cake he got in the trade by pretty much getting Wheeler for a 5 Mil dicount in salary to Beltran….
Last year would have been MUCH different in July than it turned out to be…
But it’s the other Sandy folks who claim there was NO WAY he would have re-signed with US.
Thats the excuse they gave for not trying to get him back….
I say we should have tried and blame Sandy for not trying….
And the excuse made by others to say that was unfair was because of this notion that we burned our bridge with him….
DESPITE the fact he didn’t have a problem with Sandy he wasn’t here when ANY of the crap went down and had no reason to hold a grudge against him at all….
Hi Metsie,
And to take that point further, it’s a matter of believing Carlos possibly still harbored bad feelings with the front office and the fans over those past and un-derserving riffs. A valid point since we’ve heard so many insincere words about wanting to stay with a team by so many others, however, it’s still subjective and not based on anything that has been said or any action that was taken.
Ah, if only Sandy took some action – there would be no doubt about how sincere Carlos was, just as there would be no doubt about Jose.
Metsie, only Beltran knows whether he really wanted to stay or not. It’s just my opinion that the Mets had a slightly better than even chance of retaining him if they had wanted to. We can all guess what his true feelings were, but no one knows.
I just feel that if Omar were still GM, he would have tried to retain Beltran, and would therefore not have traded him. But instead we got Sandy and it’s a new philosophy, somewhat dictated by the financial circumstances he found himself in. So in that context, the trade was probably the right thing to do. And Alderson did a superb job leveraging Beltran for an elite prospect.
And what’s wrong with you damaja? You just can’t cherry pick stats to fit your agenda. Nice of you to leave out the years in which the A’s won four division titles, three pennants, and a world series. LMFAO
Well in either case we will never know because Sandy didn’t even try to get him back….
We can speculate on if Omar tradesand then signs Beltran but he never got the chance…
“I can’t envision him making nearly as good a deal as Alderson made with Beltran”
RIght…because Omar never fleeced anyone…
Kris Benson for John Maine ?
Duaner Sanchez?
Johan Santana ?
Sorry champ, but Sandy had Atlanta, Texas, Cleveland, and San Fran all coming to him because in 2004, Omar signed Beltran.
If Beltran comes up lame in 2011, Sandy doesnt get Wheeler…
If Beltran invokes the NTC, Sandy doesnt get Wheeler
Sandy was dealing from a position of leverage…because he was handed a trade chip…
one can argue that with all the holes we have on the team, trading Beltran for just wheeler could be a bad move…
If Wheeler is traded with Flores for a couple of blue chip prospects at CF and SS, then u can say its good overall
Here was Omar’s tough negotiating stance with Beltran.
“Hey Carlos, how much of a premium do I have to pay you over the Yankees?”.
“$15 million.”.
“Ok.”.
Yessiree, that was some serious wheeling and dealing.
Correct. He never fleeced anyone.
Neither John Maine and Sanchez were game changers, and both only gave the Mets 1 good season. Sure, I know the accident killed Sanchez’ career, so we’ll never know if he would have turned out to be more.
Santana? Well he practically wrote his own ticket to the Mets. He had a complete no-trade, and told the Twins he would only go to a few teams. He even balked at considering some teams, like Texas. I believe it was the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, and perhaps 1 or 2 more teams that he would only consider.
And the Mets being in the NL and NY had the upper hand.
It was like the Roy Halladay trade to the Phillies. He wrote his own ticket there because he not only wanted a competitive team, but their spring training complex is near his home. So you certainly can’t give Amaro a lot of credit for Halladay.
And it’s one thing to have talent. It’s another thing to know when and how to parlay that talent into other assets. Omar would NOT have traded Beltran in similar circumstances at the end of July 2011.
So sorry, champ, Omar just wasn’t a good negotiator or trader. The poor contracts he made with Ollie and Castillo are further testament to that.
He he he …, exactly! Omar was a softie when it came to most negotiations.
Well, he certainly did fleece the Twins. Minimal trade partners aside, the Twins got nothing for Santana.
Omar didn’t fleece the Twins. Johan did. The Twins were in a bind. Texas reportedly wanted to trade for Johan but he nixed the idea. The Twins had few options, and trading their star pitcher to the Yankees would have been distasteful to their fans.
Also, the Twins ended up getting the best of what was in the Mets system. The Mets simply had no prospects at the time who were at the level of a Wheeler or TAD.
Be that as it may, the Twins had other options that all trumped the Mets offer, options that Johan would have agreed to, and Omar managed to get that done. At the very least, he was able to convince the Twins that the gap between the offers wasn’t as big as it was, which earns him credit.
What other offers? As I said, he already Texas. (Actually I’m not sure if it was Texas, it might have been the Mariners.) And no one wants to trade one of their homegrown stars to the Yankees when you are in the same league. So, what other options did they have? Johan had them over a barrel!
No, the Twins began the negotiations asking for Reyes and F-Mart…they ended up with Gomez and 3 scrub pitchers.
Maine from 06-08 >>>>> Any pitcher Sandy has acquired on the ML level
When it came to trades
Omar >>>> Sandy
Deal with it….ur lord and savior is Al Harazin with a tight budget. In otherwords, a guy who is more focused on the financial and legal aspects of the club…
Unless you think there is another reason why he would have Lucas Duda in RF for almost all of 2012…along with taking Jordany Valdespin, a SS/2B and have him play LF, SS, RF, CF, 2B all in a matter of weeks…
Your lord and savior is a fraud living off a rep he built on tainted steroid filled teams.
When asked to work on a tight budget….Sandy has done this
Years Wins Loss
1982 68 94 .420
1983 74 88 .457
1984 77 85 .475
1985 77 85 .475
1986 76 86 .469
1987 81 81 .500
1993 68 94 .420
1994 51 63 .447
1995 67 77 .465
2011 77 85 .475
2012 74 88 .457
In 1 out of 11 years Sandy was able to scrap out ONE .500 season….thats it…
this is why Sandy never again became a GM for another team…
Omar >>>> Sandy
deal with it
should read he “already NIXED Texas”
“And no one wants to trade one of their homegrown stars to the Yankees when you are in the same league”
You mean like Chuck Knoblauch?
You mean like Alex Rodriguez?
You mean like Curtis Granderson?
Sweet Jesus u sure are dumb…
The Mets had NO options via free-agency…an injured Pedro Martinez due to miss all of 2008…Glavine leaving via free-agency….Minnesotta could’ve waited til the all-star break and gotten a better deal…
again, Omar >>>> Sandy
Sandy doesnt have the talent to pull off something like that….nor does he care enough to do it either…
Castillo was a poor contract???
Castilo made 5.5 mil in 2007…and 6 mil in 2008-2011
Omar’s other option that off-season was Kaz Matsui
Castillo + Perez combined made 18 mil per year….or 2 mil less than Dr. Dimples will make next year before deferred salary
Well, duh, no one is going to give away a young all-star position player in a trade like this. GMs only do that if they are getting young controllable all-star major leaguers in return. Not a veteran pitcher who is demanding a mega bucks extension.
And, LOL, about Maine and “any pitcher” Alderson has acquired. Alderson has just been here a few years. How much you want to bet that both Wheeler and Syndergaard turn out to be better than Maine?
And, as for Alderson’s record in 2011 and 2012 … that’s because he had to deal with the crap that Omar left behind.
Sandy >>>>>>>>>> your god Omar
you deal with that!
Now that I do agree with.
And puhleeeeze .,, Knoblauch and Granderson were not on the level of a Santana or Halladay. And A-Roid was a pure salary dump. We all know that. Only the Yankees could afford to pay so much in salary for A-Roid. Even Boston couldn’t handle the full amount, which is why they wouldn’t raise it when the union nixed the lowered compensation arrangements.
As for Castillo, terrible contract. Castillo’s defense had been declining for years, even before he got to the Mets. He was unsuited for playing in NY too. There was no reason to give him a mult-year extension. No one else would have wasted their money on Castillo like that.
Ollie was another laugher of a contract. No one else was offering Ollie anything near that. Omar totally caves in to Boras
And if I’m dumb you’re a total ignoramus!
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>>> your god Omar
YOU deal with that!
And what’s wrong with you damaja? You just can’t cherry pick stats to fit your agenda like that. Nice of you to leave out the years in which the A’s won four division titles, three pennants, and a world series. LMFAO
“Omar would NOT have traded Beltran in similar circumstances at the end of July 2011.”
Why?
O I get it…Omar had a personal connection with Beltran that went beyond the field…so Omar would not be a professional and do what he had to do…
the same way Omar didnt release Julio Franco in 2007…a man he knew over 25 years dating back to their days in Texas…a man he convinced to come to NY….
reality – Omar does what his bosses tell him to do
If the wilpons say, lets trade Beltran and get a maximum return, Im betting he gets a much better haul than just Wheeler…
this is why it was reported on ESPN that other gm’s were calling Omar asking him for advice at the trade deadline in 2011…
the only people asking Sandy for anything are folks who need a notary signed
“And what’s wrong with you damaja? You just can’t cherry pick stats to fit your agenda like that. Nice of you to leave out the years in which the A’s won four division titles, three pennants, and a world series. LMFAO”
ur not too smart are u…
I said when Sandy is given A TIGHT BUDGET
Sandy was able to acquire Rickey Henderson …who had the biggest contract in all of baseball..a guy he sent off because he wanted to get paid…then after the egg on his face dried off, he traded to get Rickey back after the yankees and rickey were on the outs…
Again…give Sandy a tight budget, no roids for his players…and those teams look like the records listed above.
these are facts partner…u can wish for Sandy to be better all u want….but stats show Omar has a better winning percentage with a miniscule budget and a team that was about to get contracted by the league…
I know it burns ur heart to see Omar outperform the Harvard lawyer with the million dollar vocabulary
When a team needs someone to lower payroll, they call Sandy
When a team needs someone to get talent, they call Omar
Omar >>>>> Sandy
LOL, damaja, go read my original post. I said specifically that Omar would not have traded high priced players he acquired himself mid-season. Then you mention Julio Franco LMFAO!
As for Beltran, Omar wouldn’t have traded him because
1) personal connection
2) Mets were technically still in the race
3) Beltran was having a good season
4) Omar would likely have wanted to resign him
Reality — Omar did what he wanted to do, Until the incident with Bernazard.
And, nonsense about other GMs asking Omar for trade advice. Unless it was for advice on a specific player Omar knew, then I find that laughable. I would be surprised if Omar ever gets another GM job. No one is going to trust him with a payroll anymore.
1) personal connection –
again…this is where the ugly race card rears its head…
Sandy refuses to trade Hairston in a meaningless season…
>>>“Right now, he’s a very important part of our team. We do feel it’s important to field as >>>strong a team as we reasonably can for the rest of the season.
WTF ???
>>>We haven’t given up on the season. We didn’t move players off the team for a reason. We >>>think we still have lots of good baseball in front of us. And Scott can be part of that.
WTF ???/
The mets were in WORSE SHAPE in 2012 than they were in July 2011…he punted in 2011…but not in 2012???
no one ever says Sandy and Scott have a personal connection…although Sandy knew Hairston for YEARS
basically….
Hispanic guy with hispanic player, must have some personal connection…which totally explains why Omar never picked up Pedro Martinez in 2009…
O and as far as “personal” connections…It was Omar’s personal connection with RA Dickey ( scouted him back with Texas ) that allowed us to get the 2012 Cy Young award winner and eventually the prospects from Toronto…this is why RA thanked Omar Minaya …and why you should too
2) Mets were technically still in the race…
So Omar is punished for actually trying to win…
3) Beltran was having a good season
So Omar is punished for actually trying to win…
4) Omar would likely have wanted to resign him
after trading Beltran for a package of players, Omar would’ve wanted to resign him…w/o giving up a draft pick either…So Omar is punished for actually trying to win…
“I said specifically that Omar would not have traded high priced players he acquired himself mid-season.”
And exactly why did Omar trade away Billy Wagner???
Hi Metro,
Have to take STRONG issue with you regarding the point about the Mets still being TECHNICALLY in the race – they were in the THICK OF IT!
Yes, we nose dived after that with a real big thud. Yes, part of it could be attributed to subsequent season ending injuries to Murphy and Neise but the real culprit was the front office. How could one be expected to not have the wind knocked out of their sails when the front office had no appreciation of the effort they were doing? Maybe ten days before he trades Beltran the G.M. said he needed more time to see what the club was made of? That’s really a vote of confidence.
I was afraid that mindset was going to continue into 2012 and it did when no action was taken to help them shore up the bullpen. They started to fall after the All-Star break and getting some kind of bullpen help – any kind of bullpen help (even asking me to pitch) would have been at least some sort of shot in the arm rather than a kick in the stomach.
So besides talent, there has to be fostered a winning attitude not just within the clubhouse but with those on the top as well. Only goes to show that when it comes to performance on the field, the owners have to at least provide a semblance of giving a damn about the team instead of treating it as if it was only a business – for when that happens, the players start treating it like a business on the field too – and their business is their own selves, not the team as well.
It’s funny how you fail to mention that in 2010 the Mets were 48-40 at the allstar break in the thick of a division race not just a wild card race and no help was brought in that year either. They did not buy or sell and that team was 11 games over 500 in June, better than each of the last 2 years you claimed the towel was thrown in.
Also both the Phillies and Brewers threw in the towel last year and neither team cried about it claiming they felt kicked in the teeth. Both teams after being DISMANTLED while technically still in the race played their best baseball instead of whining about being kicked in the teeth. Both teams fought their way into the wildcard race after being ripped apart. The players need to take a long look in the mirror and ask themselves do they belong in the Majors after quitting on their manager because they expected help to be brought in that never came.
And BTW Omar was also smart by not going out and making a bad deal to appease the media and fanbase because they were delusional enough to think they were actually good enough to make the playoffs in 2010 just like Sandy was smart enough to realize the last 2 years the team was not good enough to compete in the NL East and risk making a bad decision.
“And BTW Omar was also smart by not going out and making a bad deal to appease the media and fanbase because they were delusional enough to think they were actually good enough to make the playoffs in 2010 just like Sandy was smart enough to realize the last 2 years the team was not good enough to compete in the NL East and risk making a bad decision.”
What are you my echo? lol
LOL, yeah there was another sentence attached there and it went missing … lost in spaaaaaace.
keyword = BAD DEAL
not every DEAL is a BAD DEAL
and in 6 seasons, Omar only made a couple of trade deadline pickups. It appears that the payroll was pretty much set in stone.
Omar almost always had great payroll flexibility — something that Alderson can only dream of. And if he ran out of money mid-season, that’s his fault. Many GM’s save some money specifically for that mid-season pickup. Why didn’t Omar? Instead of wasting money on the Castillo and Perez contracts, he could have saved some important dollars for mid-season pickups.
“no help was brought in that year either”
And he got fired didn’t he?
Fonzie,
I’ve mentioned that many times. I said the signs were there when Omar made no moves during the season and tried to resolve the problems at first base and center field with Sandy-like inexpensive players like Jacobs and Matthews.
And I don’t really care what happens with other teams – the more damage they do to themselves, the better it is for us.
dismantled?
they extended hamels
Traded 1B Jim Thome to Baltimore for RHP Kyle Simon and C Gabriel Lino.
July 6, 2012 Activated 1B Ryan Howard from the 15-day DL
With Ryan Howard back on the team, no need for Jimbo…
they took a guy that was going to be on the bench and got 2 players for him
Traded OF Shane Victorino to the L.A. Dodgers for RHP Josh Lindblom, RHP Ethan Martin and player to be named or cash considerations.
So they got 3 prospects for a guy hitting .261, no power and diminished defense
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=victosh01&t=b&year=2012&share=3.86#923-1023-sum:batting_gamelogs
Traded OF Hunter Pence and cash considerations to the San Francisco Giants for OF Nate Schierholtz, C Tommy Joseph and RHP Seth Rosin.
And they got 3 more players for Hunter Pence…a guy who was hitting .271 with 17 HR by August 1st…
Both players were replaced by Dominic Brown and John Mayberry…
Traded RHP Joe Blanton to the L.A. Dodgers for a player to be named or cash considerations.
Blanton was 8-9 .471 4.59
Dismantling would mean trading off guys like Hamels, Lee, Doc, Papelbon…not guys who were UNDERPERFORMING
Amaro should get a medal just for being able to get more for those guys…
Yeah according to Joey trading K-Rod and Beltran(2 players) contitutes dismantling so if that’s dismantling then what Philly did last year was also dismantling. He also claimed the Mets tanked last year because they did not add any players but Philly and Milwaukee subtracted players and neither team felt “kicked in the teeth” as the Mets felt. No they went on and played their best baseball and got back into the race while the Mets with mostly young players still trying to show they belong in the bigs decided to mail it in. It wasn’t because the front office didn’t add any players it was because the team wasn’t good enough. just like it wasn’t good enough in 2010 and 2011 covering 2 different GM’s.
yes b/c the phils traded their best position player and best reliever for salary relief and prospects…
plus their stud young SP who was headed into free-agency…
o wait..
they didnt do that…
#sucka
Support your claim that the A’s had higher budgets in the years that Alderson won 4 division titles, 3 pennants, and a world series.
If you don’t, then you are really stupid.
Omar can’t do diddley unless he has a big wallet to spend.
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>> your god Omar
Deal with it!
Hi Metro,
Unfortunately, they did. In 1989 and 1990 they had the second highest payroll in the league In 1991 it was the third. In 1988 it was the seventh highest before jumping to second.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/attend.shtml
Joey, where does it give the rank?
Hi Metro,
Fourth column to the right. Scroll down to the years I mentioned.
Disproves the money ball connection with Sandy, that’s for sure. As mentioned, his payroll was 7th – in the middle of the pack – when the A’s won that first league championship. The payroll went up to that seventh position based upon Oakland climbing up to .500 the year before.
And the payroll went up as he started giving bigger salaries to his star players – doubled that of Stewart and Eckersly for example.
Joey, lol, those are attendance rankings you’re looking at. We’re talking payroll here!
Hi Metro,
Won’t mention the name of the guy currently with the red-face.
However, I did recall Oakland increasing it’s payroll during that championship era and found the original website I had come across on.
In 1987 they began climbing in the standings and so the following season their payroll was 14th out of 26. For the next four seasons Sandy’s teams were in the top half – and note 1991 and 1992.
Their rankings out of the 26 teams were:
1988 – 14
1989 – 12
1990 – 10
1991 – 1
1992 – 5
What should have caught my attention is that I knew in one season they did sport the highest team payroll in the majors while that list had it appear that they were no higher than number two. Of course, that was for attendance which shows they weren’t playing in front of empty seats like the great championship teams of the early seventies.
http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/1991
No problem, joey, we all make mistakes like that sometimes. Only damaja makes them more often than most and won’t admit when he is wrong.
And, yes, while Sandy was in Oakland the payrolls did rise at one point while the team was successful. But a few things to note here… one, Sandy never had payrolls that dwarfed other teams such as what we have with big spenders today like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Phillies. There were ALWAYS a few teams spending within 1 or 2 million of what Sandy was spending … two, at the time Sandy’s Oakland teams were the most successful, he only had middle-of-the-pack payrolls. And they were closer to the bottom spenders than the biggest ones.
A team meeting success on the field and having increased attendance as a result of it is often going to increase its payroll in subsequent years due to the added revenues brought on by the attendance bump.
Hi Metro,
Yes, and I think that is the problem facing if not Sandy, then whoever replaces him.
Payrolls can go up when new players are acquired but they also go up as player production goes up. So it might not be a case of having a higher payroll before the fact but maintaining it after the fact, may it be with individuals just performing better or the team itself moving up in the standings.
If no financial steps are taken to reward and sustain that improvement, either as a team or, as we have seen all too often of late, then it becomes a case of both sustaining improvement and salary dumping with less costly replacements (Tejada replacing Reyes). If, it’s like Beltran and R.A., regardless of prospects in return, it is a case of salary dumping only for the moment and hopes for a better future later on.
Joey — not quite sure what your point is. Are you trying to say they should not have traded Beltran but should instead have tried to sign him? As for “hopes for a better future later on” that is more the case with the Beltran trade and less so with the Dickey trade. D’Araud is almost ready and will likely make his debut this year. Even Wheeler was just a 1 year wait as he will likely make his debut this year too.
“Only damaja makes them more often than most and won’t admit when he is wrong.”
so the words EST payroll now mean attendance ??
and my point that Sandy Alderson has never won with a shoe-string budget ( ala Beane ) is still 100% correct
in 11 years of having a payroll in the bottom third of the AL, Sandy was able to manage a .500 season JUST ONCE
sorry sucka, damaja is right more often than not…
ask fonzie about chipper signing a 6 year extension at age 34 LMAO
Huh? Who said “EST payroll” equals attendance? LMFAO. Stop the LSD, damaja!
And again, what relevance does Sandy’s record on a shoestring budget have to this discussion?
The fact is that Sandy won in Oakland with a middle-of-the-pack budget. Which is much more than Omar ever did.
damaja, you are wrong so much of the time. And the rally sorry part is you never admit it.
i wasnt even paying attention to the RANKING ( 14th out of 14th )
i was looking at the PAYROLL
and because i already know where they ranked among AL teams…I assume you did too
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/1989-misc.shtml
sorry, i was giving you TOO much credit
LOL, you apparently weren’t paying much attention to anything, which is typical of you.
Because the fact is, Joey and I were talking about PAYROLL RANKING at the time.
You were only looking at half of the equation.
And, LMFAO, you’ve been caught in another lie. Because if you already knew where they ranked, then you wouldn’t have said Joey was right, because he ranked them erroneously based on the attendance rankings. Hahahaha!
Joey was man enough to admit he was wrong. But you are not.
Way to show attendance ranks as proof of payroll. LOL.
Fonzie,
When columns are next to each other and deal with different type numbers one can make a human error misreading the top description. That is what I did and I made fun of it at my own expense for doing so. So even though my original summazation was based on incorrect figures mistaken for something else, I was correct in remembering Oakland having one the higher payrolls during that time and provided a chart showing that for one year they actually had the highest payroll in the majors.
I goofed seeing figures that appeared similar to what I had remembered.
Joey, again, as I said, no problem. The problem came with damaja jumping blindly on the bandwagon and screaming like a banshee. Then when it was pointed out to him multiple times the page didn’t have what he thought it did, he continued to insist otherwise. Either he is too stupid or he just is incapable of admitting when he is wrong.
I know Joey I was breaking your curveballs. Oakland did have a league high payroll in 91 or 92 I believe but during the years Oakland won 88-92 they did not have a distinct advantage over other teams like big market teams have had over small market teams from the mid to late 90′s on. Every team at that point and time had a chance to compete because the salary structures had not knocked the small to mid market clubs off the map. In the late 80′s and early 90′s teams like KC and Pittsburgh could compete with the Redsox, Yanks and Mets for the same players. The game had not changed yet so it’s not like the A’s were blowing the rest of MLB away with an astronomical payroll like the Yanks had been doing the last decade. They had a 16 million dollar payroll in 1989 the year they won.
Hi Fonzie,
Good pun – “breaking” my “curve balls”.
My own feeling is that a club doesn’t have to start off with a high payroll if it chooses slowly to re-build and not take the major steps for quicker improvement.
As the talent improves and the team starts to climb in the standings so do the expenses. Like with Oakland in the late eighties, the payroll began rising as certain players were added which brought them up to a .500 club. The next year those newly acquired players got them to the world series. It was best to then extend contracts for those not commited to multi-years so they would not soon be jumping ship. That’s when we saw the payroll really start to rise.
That’s why one has to be concerned with the Mets. As some already on the team (Davis, Duda, Gee, Parnell, Tejada) hopefully begin to improve more and the Mets are making progress in the standings, Sandy cannot stick with the payroll as it currently to sustain and improve that competitive build-up. Besides the young players demanding more money through arbitration, there most likely will still be the need for an outside free agent to fix a hole. Revenues are projected to decease further but even if in 2014 and 2015 that revenue begins to increase we have a problem with the overall operating budget of the club having to stay at current levels due to having to begin paying off those re-financed debts. T
If that becomes the case, expect to see us be both inactive as buyers when we need to followed by another round of salary dumping.
If any of those players are worth keeping and paying the higher salaries it won’t be a problem since Bay, Johan and Francisco will be off the books after this season minus somme deferral money that won’t hinder any free agent pickups. They’ve already extended Niese and if Ike shows he’s worth it or anybody else they’ll get extended too.
LMAO
Joey D completely debunked ur theory
LMFAO — look before you leap! Those are attendance rankings! LOLOLOL!
It says EST PAYROLL !!!!!
He even tells you…FOURTH COLUMN FROM THE RIGHT…
I have a sneaky suspicion you are a Republican
Are you on LSD, damaja? Serious.
We’re talking about the rankings for the estimated payroll. Joey was looking instead at the rankings for attendance, not the payroll. . THE RANKINGS FOR ESTIMATED PAYROLL ARE NOT ON THE PAGE.
LOL, learn to read, kid.
And the “estimated payroll” is in the THIRD COLUMN FROM THE RIGHT. Not the fourth column from the right, which is where the attendance rankings are. Joey thought those attendance rankings were payroll rankings and you blindly went along, making a fool of yourself!
So yes, u were wrong, Joey D was right…
Sandy never won with a shoe-string budget as Billy Beane did
Wow! What grade are you in damaja? Do you know what the word RANKING means?
Do I need to get it out of a dictionary for you? There are no payroll rankings on that page, Only payroll estimates. We were looking for RANKINGS!
The rankings that do appear on that page are for attendance.
Joey was wrong about the rankings. But at least he is man enough not to protest about it to cover up his error like you are doing, You are making a total fool of yourself.,
payroll estimates and budgets dont go together ?
sandy never won jack with a shoe string budget
LOL, changing direction there again?
The point is you didn’t even understand that the page had no PAYROLL RANKINGS whatsover, yet you kept arguing to the contrary. Wow!
no, it had the payroll listed for the year…
and i never changed directions…
sandy never won jack with a shoe-string budget
And we were specifically talking about the “rankings.” That was said in post after post.
And you always change direction and/or spam the thread with pointless quotes.
Again, how is it relevant what Sandy did or didn’t do on a “shoestring” budget?
Yeah Billy Beane won with the players he inherited from Sandy’s farm system.
Oakland went to the playoffs in 4 straight years
From 2000-2003
How many of those players were drafted under Sandy from 1983-1997 ?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2000.shtml#players_value_batting::20
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2001.shtml#players_value_batting::20
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2002.shtml#players_value_batting::20
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2003.shtml#players_value_batting::20
Lets see there’s McGwire, Steinbach, Weiss, Burns, Cadaret. Whitehurst, Tapani, Rod Beck traded, Brosius Then there’s the Billy Beane success story in which an IFA you may have heard of Miguel Tejada was signed. Another IFA Ramon Hernandez. Draft picks Jason Giambi, Spiezio, Grieve, Hudson(Twice), Chavez, Mathews, Gregg(traded). And if you’re gonna give him credit for his losing streak record in 98 like everybody else here then he has to get credit for Mulder, Laird (Traded) and Eric Byrnes. All during Sandy’s tenure.
Helluva a nice core to play moneyball with. Chavez, Tejada and Giambi is a sweet infield to inherit. Let me know when some of the Met farm hands from 05-10 develope into that.
Chavez, Tejada and Giambi is a sweet infield to inherit. Let me know when some of the Met farm hands from 05-10 develope into that.
Do the farm hands get to take the PED’s that Tejada/Giambi did ?
And giving Sandy for the draft picks BILLY had after he left is like giving Omar credit for Brandon Neemo and Darrel Cecerrelli and Phil Evans…
LMAO
“And giving Sandy for the draft picks BILLY had after he left is like giving Omar credit for Brandon Neemo and Darrel Cecerrelli and Phil Evans…”
And you try to give credit to Omar for Reyes even though he merely helped negotiate a bonus … and you also try to give credit to Omar for Zack Wheeler because he signed Beltran … LMFAO!
Every player I mentioned was drafted or signed as an IFA while Sandy was the GM except Mulder, Byrnes and Laird who were drafted while Sandy was president. Those players you mentioned were drafted after Minaya was fired. That made totally no sense whatsoever but not surprised since that’s what you do.
METRO PCS “Omar can’t do diddley unless he has a big wallet to spend.”
Which totally explains why the Expos with a shoe-string budget, facing contraction were in 2 pennant races back to back…
this is why a team in need of talent looks for Omar
A team in need of lowering salary looks for Sandy
Not only that, but prove that Alderson’s A’s had a top 3 payroll in the AL during the years they won those pennants and titles.
Omar always had one of the top 3 payrolls in the NL every year he was Mets GM.
Prove that Alderson’s A’s ever won a division title w/o half the damn team on steroids
I never made a claim about that one way or the other. You just did. So YOU prove that half of Sandy’s teams were juiced and that none of the other teams in their division weren’t similarly juiced.
2 best players on the team ===> http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000oU53r3OUcHA/s/700/Man-0705.jpg
LMAO next thing u know, ur gonna tell me that Oakland would’ve won those division titles w/o Canseco and McGuire
Really, damaja? Two players equals “half” the team? LMFAO. Is your math that bad or are you on drugs now?
I was being sarcastic…
now again…please tell me that Sandy’s A’s are winning a division title w/o Canseco and McGuire..aka the biggest chunk of their offense
lmao
unlike Billy Beane…Sandy has never won on a shoe-string budget…
people associating Sandy with Oakland’s success from 1997-present day are just desperately seeking a reason to justify saying Sandy is better than Omar
Sandy in 2 seasons has made some of the most bone-headed embarrassing remarks in recent memory…
for his awesome command of English…his choice of words shows a lack of respect for the Met fan
Your sarcasm totally sucks. Just like your use of stats. LMAO
And until you can prove that none of the other teams in the division weren’t similarly juiced, then there was nothing unfair about Canseco and McGwire.
Sandy schooled Beane in moneyball. Sandy is the father of moneyball. Your denial of these facts plus your obsession with going back 20 years to judge him shows your desperation at trying to slam him in order to make your god Omar look better. LOL. No one is fooled.
I have no problems with Alderson’s remarks. And who the fu&& cares about what a GM says? The only thing that matters is what’s done on the field. Something your buddy Onnar failed at!
‘
You are the one making the hostile allegation. He doesn’t have to prove anyhting. You prove it. you are the one making the would accusations. Its easy to pick on just, isn’t it. Well, you are the one getting it now because you are the aggressor with nothing to back it up, not him. so prove other AOL WEST teams roided like Sandy’s now beloved A’s did!
Hostile? What do you mean by hostile allegation? If anyone makes “hostile” allegations in this forum it is always damaja.
At least one other team in the AL West at that time was filled with known cheaters, two of them heavy — Palmiero and Pudge. They also had Brown. So, if anything, the Rangers may have been the most roided up team in the AL West when Sandy was in Oakland.
And that’s just the players we know of. Most likely, every team in MLB had 2 or 3 users of anabolic steroids at that time.
Texas Rangers during that time: Palmeiro, Brown, Pudge — LMFAO!
actually the rangers started roiding up after a former oakland athletic was on the roster…
I wonder who….
Prove that the Rangers weren’t roiding at the same time Sandy’s Oakland teams were winning titles.
Sure…most of the players accused of steroids werent even on the rangers from 86-90..or if there were…u can see how skinny / powerless they were
Rafael Palmero was on the cubs…
came to the rangers in 1989…didnt hit for power til 1994
in 1990, a young Ruben Sierra ( never implicated ) was the team leader with 29 HR
in 1990, a 20 year old Sammy Sosa, hit 0 HR
all the rest of the guys that were suspect werent even on the team
are u satisfied yet ?
or must i deliver some more ass-whoopings
I´m not even sure McGwire was on steroids in the late 80s. His body exploded in the early 90s.
Back then, pretty much half of Baseball was probably on some sort of PED. It wasn´t tested, so most of them did what they thought was right to get better.
The entire 1993 Phillies team probably was on something.
And it´s not as if Sandy Alderson personally did the injections.
He looked away – like everyone else did back then.
Plus, I don´t see how whatever happened with the late 80s A´s has any sort of relevance for the Mets now or going forward. Alderson will be judged on what he does right here, right now, not what he did or didn´t do in another era.
“Plus, I don´t see how whatever happened with the late 80s A´s has any sort of relevance for the Mets now or going forward. ”
probably because Sandy was given alot of patience due to his work in the 80′s with the A’s…
I think Sandy is given a lot of patience primarily because he’s working with tighter financial restrictions and under a worse financial situation than any previous Mets GM faced, and because he inherited a mess from Omar.
Sandy also wants to build from within. And that inherently is a tact that requires more patience.
So Dooby has a point. Alderson’s record of 20 years ago is of little relevance to now.
Canseco played in 65 games in 89 and they still won 99. By far the most dominant staff in the AL may have had something to do with their success. Just a bit. Lmao.
But…. but… I am sure they were on roids too. So was Sandy, that is what happened to his hair.
Hi TRS,
You just did the impossible – finding something Fonzie and I can agree on!
How about 1988-1990..?
How about Mark Mcguire ? how many games did he play in 1989?
“The Big Mac” admitted to using steroids as early as the 1989 season in which he and Jose Canseco led the Oakland A’s to a World Series championship; the second of three straight appearances.
and in 1988-1990, there were always 2-3 teams with 90 wins or more…the A’s def had a competitive advantage with Canseco and McGuire…
and lets not forget…
canseco came back in the 2nd half and played in the the ALCS and the WS ( hitting .357 )
Where did McGwire admit to using steroids as far back as 1989? No one doubts he was a heavy roids user, but other than simply admitting to cheating, he has never admitted to specifics of that cheating. At least try to get your facts straight.
And, again, prove that other teams in the AL didn’t have any heavy roids users. There were probably at least a few on every team back then.
No McGwire admitted to using around 93,94 when he missed most of 2 years due to injuries. And McGwire hit 231 with a barely over 800 OPS in 89 while Canseco missed more than half that season. They had the 2nd best ERA and WHIP in MLB behind the Dodgers. Their staff dominated. Obviously you weren’t even around back then. Kids! lol
Fonzie13 with ANOTHER LIE
“No McGwire admitted to using around 93,94 when he missed most of 2 years due to injuries”
Canseco said he was doing it in 1989…
During an FBI investigation codenamed ‘Operation Equine’ in 1992, officers turned up steroid dealer, Curtis Wenslaff. Wenzlaff’s training-session notes show he put McGwire on a mix of Winstrol V, testosterone and Equipoise
Those were notes from 1990
Mcguire on record was getting steroids well before 1993
Right now, the FBI and Jose Canseco are more credible sources than McGuire and Palmiero
Like I said, without the juice and a mid-level payroll, the A’s dont win jack
We dont have the juice….and with random HGH testing happening…Brandon Neemo wont be turning into Jose Canseco anytime soon
FONZIE13- and wait…McGuire HIMSELF said that he started after the 1989 season ( he said he didnt do as much and “stopped” for a while )
Even JoeD said the SAME THING
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/10/the-moneyball-mets-i-dont-think-so.html
You also purposely neglect to mention McGuire’s 33 HomeRuns in 1989 !
like i said Fonzie – u are full of crap and will make stuff up/leave stuff out to prove a failed point
1981 – bottom
1982 – bottom
1983 – bottom
1984 – bottom
1985 -10th
1986 -10th
1987 – 11th
1988 – 9th
1989 – tied for 5th…
1990 – 6th
1991 – 1st
1992 – 3rd
1993 – 5th
1994 – 11th
1995 – 6th
Sandy is not billy beane
Omar is NOT Billy Beane or Sandy, lol
of course not…
but omar is not associated with the SUCCESS Beane has had with Moneyball…
Success SANDY ALDERSON HAS NEVER HAD !!!!!
What? You don’t think 4 div titles, 3 pennants, and 1 WS title isn’t success? LOL.
Alderson invented moneyball!
Alderson did NOT win 4 division titles with MONEYBALL !!
Moneyball means identifying folks on the cheap and running your team on a shoestring budget…
That was not the A’s in 1988-1992
Sandy may have started the groundwork on that philosophy, yes…but he never saw any success with it in oakland nor here in NY
Until proven otherwise, all Sandy knows how to do with a low payroll is lose alot of games
Sandy invented Moneyball. Moneyball means a lot of things. It means leveraging market inefficiencies. Regardless what you think, he is as much moneyball as Beane is.
And yes, he won those titles in Oakland with Moneyball principles.
Until proven otherwise Sandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>your god Omar! LOL
market ineffeciencies ???
u mean like making carney lansford one of the highest paid 3B in baseball history?
Or trading for the highest paid player in baseball ( ricky henderson )
Or trading a future Cy Young candidate named Jose Rijo for an aging Dave Parker?
Sorry chump, but thats very different from what Billy did in the 90′s…Billy took a team with a 28 million dollar payroll…2nd to last in baseball…and won a division…and was routinely at the very BOTTOM of the payroll scale…
and when players were due for raises or approaching free-agency, Beane for the most part TRADED THEM !!!!
Sandy EXTENDED almost all of those players…
If Sandy had to keep payroll in check like Beane did…he cant acquire the 1990 MVP…extend Eckersly…extend Lansford….extend McGuire
Sandy had as much to do with Billy Beane as Omar has to do with Jon Daniels
Fact: Sandy invented moneyball. Fact: Sandy schooled Beane in moneyball,. Whether he used moneyball or maxiball or miniball to win in Oakland, it;’s irrelevant. He won 4 div titles and 3 pennants and 1 WS title using Sandyball. It worked.
SandyBall = A decent payroll + some players using PED’s !
Sandyball = smarts + not bidding against yourself + great trades
fact: Sandy, himself has never WON using those principles.
fact: Sandy himself said he is not employing those principles in NYC, and said that if he had to, he never would’ve taken the job
how many times must you get spanked before u learn ?
Fact: Sandy schooled Beane on moneyball. Sandy can be considered the father of moneyball.
Fact: I never said Sandy was employing moneyball in NY. I never opined here in any way whatsoever what type of “ball” Sandy was employing in NY. But let me opine now for the first time and say if anything, it is Madoffball. Because the guy in prison pinstrips has had the biggest impact so far on how Alderson had gone about structuring the team the last few seasons. But your brining this up just shows you can’t stay on topic.
How many times must you get smashed to the ground before you will admit you lost?
Sandyball = smarts + not bidding against yourself + great trades
13 mil for Frank Francisco ?
138 mil for David Wright ?
trading Pagan for Torres + RR
taking pot shots at other GM’s, other players, our own players = smarts?
so when is Sandy gonna start playing Sandyball
1) Personal Connection — who said anything about race? This is where your ugly uncontrollable obsession about race rears its ugly head.
The personal connection comes from the fact Omar had known Beltran for many years before he came to the Mets and because he gave him a huge multi-year contract, Most GMs have a special affinity to players they go out and heavily recruit and then give them a boatload of money to sign.
It’s not always about race. Your obsession with it is sick. Get over it.
2) No, he’s punished for being delusional.
3) No, he’s punished for being delusional.
‘
4) No, he wouldn’t have traded him to begin with. But he would have tried to resign him. So he’s punished for being delusional.
LOL, and what exactly about “high-priced” and “mid-season” don’t you understand?
Omar and Beltran had no connection before Omar was GM..
If anything that would apply to RA Dickey…as Omar scouted RA and drafted him at Texas
If Beltran was Pudge Rodriguez…a guy who Omar has known since he was 15….that would make sense…or Ruben Sierra…or Juan Gonzalez….or RA Dickey or Kevin Brown…or ….
Now…Sandy and Scott knew each other from San Diego…..
Sandy knows Scott for years….brought him over from the Padres…refuses to trade him in an absolutely meaningless season…says that no team was going to give their top prospect for a platoon player…so…the 2012 season was still alive and why give up on it now…after all…even though the team had holes in the OF and bullpen he didnt want to address…its much better to stand still and KEEP A GUY HE KNOWS FOR YEARS!!!
And Omar is the one who isnt professional enough to do whats right for the team
LMAO
Ok Champ
I can break it down for u like this
Hispanic GM with Hispanic Player = personal connection
this is the same idiotic nightmare that had some folks calling up WFAN for years complaining about the team’s identity changing
Really, you’re comparing Hairston with Beltran in terms of trade value, LMFAO. What world do you live in?
Also, again, read what I originally wrote. Here, I’ll quote it for you:
“If Omar had still been there as GM, there is no way he trades one of his high-profile free agents in the middle of the season. Omar would either have simply let Beltran walk at the end of the year or tried to re-sign him at a lower salary. Omar was incapable of trading away or releasing his OWN expensive acquisitions. Not talking about the cheaper players, but rather ones making a couple of million or more or those on multi-year contracts.”
Again — key words: multi-year contracts, middle of the season, making a couple of millions or more — now tell me how Hairston fits that?
As for Beltran, I read that they were familiar with each other before he signed, but even if that is not the case, the fact is that Omar pursued Beltran hard. Once a GM does that, he has a special affinity for that player which makes it harder to release/trade him.
So it has nothing to do with race. You really need to get over it, Your sick obsession with race is so obvious.
Omar would have MORE OF A CASE TO KEEP BELTRAN IN July 17th of 2011 than Sandy did Scott in July 30th of 2012!!!!
Are you THAT MORONIC to not see that the 2011 and 2012 seasons were totally different ?!!
There was NO REASON ( which is why u cant even defend it ) to keep Scott Hairston
the fact that WE ALL KNOW Sandy brought Scott over ( along with a bunch of his family and friends ) from San Diego…
We KNOW that the only reason Brad Eamus, Allan Dykstra, Scott Hairston and the rest of the scrubs are here is because they are connected with Depo / JP / Sandy…
Hell it was it was REPORTED that Sandy HIRED HIS SON to work as a scout here
And Yes Omar was familiar with Carlos Beltran…he was the Rookie of the Year at KC…I would be upset if Omar was not familiar with who Carlos Beltran was…
Sorry Champ…but u have no proof that Carlos and Omar were cousins, lovers, friends domino partners or basically anything more than a business association.
LOL, both seasons were about the same in terms of the Mets chances. To say that the Mets had a better chance in 2011 is just pure idiocy.
And you really are MORONIC if you think Hairston’s trade value was anything close to Beltran’s. LMFAO. It doesn’t even deserve to be addressed it’s so idiotic.
And what does Sandy hiring people he knows have to do with anything? Can you stay on topic, please? LOL
And, of course Omar was not Beltran’s gay lover or his cousin, LMFAO. But that still doesn’t mean he wasn’t somehow personally invested in him and would have traded him in 2011. Omar would never have done it.
But Sandy at the trade deadline did not say that…he said it was important that the team finished the season strong….and that it was about making good impressions and PERCEPTIONS…nothing about a wild card run in 2012…
Sandy had no business keeping Scott Hairston and Tim Byrdack ( who later blew his arm out )
Plus the met defense in 2012 was ranked the worst in baseball…and their bullpen was ranked the 2nd worst in baseball
defenses and bullpens dont turn around on a drop of a dime.
How far will u stretch the truth to protect your lord and savior Sandy til u realize ur only bullshtting yourself
Who gives a flying fu$k what a GM says? LOL. Are you insane?
All I care is what he does. And he did a great job trading Beltran for assets in 2011. He had no such valuable assets to trade in 2012. Again, your comparison of Hairston and, now, Byrdak to Beltran is TOTALLY INANE.
How long will you continue to obsess over race, what a GM says, and 30-year-old records in order to try to rehabilitate your fallen imperial god, Omar? Get off your knees from in front of your alter of Omar and start to smell the coffee!
Hey, I’m still laughing at those attendance rankings! LMFAO!
“Who gives a flying fu$k what a GM says? LOL. Are you insane?”
Apparently alot of people cared what a GM said when Omar was here…when Mr. Spelling Bee champion is in town…not so much…
“He had no such valuable assets to trade in 2012″
So after inheriting Beltran ( unless u think Sandy travelled back in time and signed him in 2004 )
Sandy inherited a Cy Young award winner…who he traded for a good package ( no problem with that )
Unfortunately, unlike Omar who found RA, Sandy’s low cost signings were not as fruitful…
however they were fruitful enough to elicit calls from Texas, SF, among others…
But then proceeded to take a dump on him on his way out ….
RA has been erased from all 2012 videos released by the mets…
The Mets could make Roberto Clemente look like Roberto Alomar if he gave them enough time
Now thats a great way to “change perceptions” as your lord and savior would say !
Omar >>>>>> Your Lord and Savior Sandy
Are you a moron? I have never made anything Omar said an issue. Only you would make an issue out of what someone says vs. what they do.
Yes, who gives a flying fuc$ what a GM says. Just concentrate on what he does. I don’t have time to waste on what a GM says LMFAO.
The only time what a GM says is if he says something inflammatory or highly controversial, Otherwise, it doesn’t matter.
And when I said he had no such valuable assets to trade in 2012, I was referring to the middle of the season. And so were you when you mentioned Byrdak and Hairston. Stop changing the subject.
And Dickey was expendable. Because the Mets had pitching depth. And what Alderson did with Dickey, Omar could never do — parlay him into two elite prospects!
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your god Omar
Get off your knees and acknowledge the superior one!
Fact: Metro defends Alderson a tad too much.
Fact The Mets have sucked totally under alderson.
Fact. Metro 12 doesn’t care about the Mets record.
Fact Metro 12 proves in his false atttacks that he locves the Mets losing
Fact: Metro 12 thinls screaming and insulting another poster is what makes him win.
BIGGEST FACT Metro 12 loses all arguments because he defends losing. Therefore
Fact Metro 12 is a troll who either hates the Mets or is paid by the Met FO to defrend the hideous losing and inept front office.
Joey — Really? You think 11.5 games out in the division and 7.5 games out in the WC with 4 teams ahead of you is being right in the thick of it? LOL Really??? And I thought you were one of the pessimists here!
At the time Sandy traded Beltran, it was clear Santana wasn’t coming back as they had hoped, Wright was just coming off his back injury, Reyes had slowed down from his injury, and Ike had already been lost for the season. So things weren’t good.
Yes, there has to be a winning attitude and optimism. But the FO also needs to be realistic and practical. Especially when the team still has financial issues.
“At the time Sandy traded Beltran”
Reyes was HEALTHY…he didnt injure his hamstring until after the trade
listen to Sandy explain why the team did nothing in 2012…
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2012/07/mets_general_manager_sandy_ald_10.html
Reyes injured his hamstring July 2nd against the Yanks. I was there. He came back on the 19th. He only attempted 9 steals the rest of the season from July 19th on. He went back on the DL for 3 weeks on Aug 7th for 3 more weeks after a 20 for 82 stretch with only 3 BB’s between the 2 DL stints with a total of 5 SB attempts. Yeah he was definitely the same guy who played like Ty Cobb for 2 months before the injury. He could’ve gotten back a haul. LMAO.
“I think there’s a lot of value in, for example, making a run, even if it’s unrealistic. I think there’s a lot of value in finishing well over .500. I think there’s a lot of value in finishing over .500. I think that those things create a perception. What happened or didn’t happen on the deadline may be largely forgotten if a team is able to create a positive impression the second half of the season.
“I thought we would talk on this call about the fact that we didn’t add anything. And now we’re talking about why we didn’t subtract. Which is interesting to me. But as I said, we’re about changing impressions, changing perceptions. And you do that with wins and losses, primarily. And I understand our fans are disappointed with what’s happened the last three weeks or so. But it’s not the end of the season.”
“There are a lot of impressions to be made over the remaining two months. And I happen to think that those impressions can be more valuable than a Low-A prospect below the top 30 from some organization in the American League.”
Your Lord and Savior
Sandy Alderson
=================================
“But as I said, we’re about changing impressions, changing perceptions”
Basically….forget a prospect…why waste Paul Depo and JP’s great scouting talents when we’ll excite the fan base with a 81 win season !!!
You are a bunch of sad suckers if you continue to fall for this lyin sack of dog-doodoo
Hi Metro,
Remember I said they didn’t have to be considered odds on favorites to win but yes, they had a very valid chance in the position they were in. Don’t look at just the standings – which did place them in the pack – take also into account they were playing .575 baseball for 85 games, had shown the resiliency the come back in the late innings, executed the plays properly and were not beating themselves, showed poise, maturity and confidence beyond their years that when a clutch hit was needed, somebody responded or picked up for the other. And they were doing this with the knowledge that Wright was to come back in another month, adding another bat to the lineup. Add to that they didn’t give up on themselves after that miserable start of 5-14 when the media and the fans (including me) saw them possibly losing 100 games.
And that’s what competitive integrity stands – an attribute that cannot be found in the standings or measured through computer stats. It is a quality that has often made up for the lack of overall talent compared to other clubs. That is why baseball is a TEAM sport. A baseball person would recognize them in a heartbeat. A business person either won’t or would not care if his objective was to downsize, not wanting to gamble that financially something could possibly materialize when cutting back expenses guarantees it.
Competitive integrity doesn’t apply just to the players – it applies to the front office as well – as it also should apply to the fans. When a team is playing beyond it’s expectations (due to those attributes above) one should support it rather than waiting for the team to fail to prove one’s point that the team wasn’t good enough to do any better, that they were only hanging around and eventually they were bound to fail.
Maybe a better would be “fan” integrity. As the season progresses let the team prove it sucks before branding it as so.
Sorry Joey, but 11.5 games back and 7.5 games back in the WC is NOT “in the thick of it.” Especially with 4 teams ahead of you. Especially with Ike out for the entire season, with Reyes having just come off an injury and not playing at 100%, and Wright just coming off a broken back. And especially with Santana having failed to come back that year.
Sure they still had a chance at that time, but if you were realistic and looked at all the holes in the team, you’d have to acknowledge it was a big long shot.
There is value in a postseason run, but there’s more value in getting an elite prospect back if that run is simply going after fool’s gold.
I still find “In the thick of it” back in 2011 to be hilarious.
Everyone does.
Except 2.
Really damaja? You claim to be a fan of Reyes and don’t know that he was also injured BEFORE the trade deadline in 2011? Wow. Imagine what you don’t know for players you’re not a fan of! It could fill oceans!
And hey, it’s good to know you can cut and paste quotes. I give you an A+ for that. But you get an F for lack of relevancy and failure to explain why your frequent cut-and-paste exercises have any purpose.
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your god Omar
You are a really sad sack for being so obsessed with race and Omar Minaya. He’s gone. Not everything is about race. Get over him and it!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201107260.shtml
You get a F for Facts !!
Reyes was alive and healthy when Beltran got traded
A week later Reyes and Murphy were injured in the same game
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6841728/new-york-mets-jose-reyes-left-hamstring-daniel-murphy-knee-injured
are u done with me whipping your ass tonight or do u still want more ?
And you get an F for your illiteracy. Go back and read what I said. I never said he was on the DL or injured at the time Beltran was traded. I said he had just come off an injury and was not at full strength,. And he wasn’t. You really are a dolt!
Metro12: ‘You claim to be a fan of Reyes and don’t know that he was also injured BEFORE the trade deadline in 2011″
Metro12: “I never said he was on the DL or INJURED at the time Beltran was traded.”
Are you done with me whipping your ass yet ?
Reyes tweaked his hamstring 3 weeks BEFORE the Beltran trade and was just fine when he came back from the DL…9 days before Beltran was traded…
and lets not forget Wright ( our shining knight in armor ) was coming back from the DL…
sorry sucka…but Sandy PUNTED on 2011 and DID NOT PUNT in 2012…
Players with less production than Scott Hairston get traded all the time…
Omar was able to get one of the best setup men in 2006 by trading Jae Wong Seo
Wake me up when Sandy can do anything like that
1.) No, he wasn’t fine after. His numbers went down.
2) You were wrong and am not man enough to admit it. You said he was injured only after the trade.
3) Exactly, Wright was injured too. Thanks for agreeing with me. Because Wright was also injured, the team wasn’t running on all cylinders and therefore it made no sense to continue the run.
4) Yes, I know players less than Hairston get traded all the time, but the lesser the player, the lesser the expected return.
5) Sanchez lasted 1 year, lol
6) Wake me up when Omar ever becomes a good GM
The team actually IMPROVED after Wright was injured !!
look at their record when he was “healthy”
smh
syh all you want. It doesn’t cover up the fact the team record after one player got hurt is not even what we’re discussing here. It’s the cumulative impact that multiple people getting hurt — or missing and on the DL — had on the team’s chances that year. That’s the point.
so having depth ( which Sandy inherited in 2011 ) allowed us to continue playing through injuries and have a good record….
but let’s ignore that and speculate that the season will go to shit, punt, make sure it goes to shit…
that makes sense !
The Mets were playing .500 ball at the time and were 7.5 games back in the WC. Not “good” enough to be confident of making the playoffs. Not facing reality by continuing to dream of playoff hopes in that situation makes questionable sense, especially when you have and asset like Beltran whom you don’t expect back the next year. Trading him for Wheeler was brilliant.
that setup man was injured in a car accident….pretty good excuse to not be so good anymore..
again…Sandy would be considered a genius if he could trade a scrub pitcher and get a stud reliever…
instead we get the pagan for ramirez trade and folks say ” o well, u cant win em all ”
lmao
Sure, but then you can’t say it was a steal based on just that one year, because he could of been a bust thereafter. Can’t say either way then.
Sandy has had only 3 trades of significance since he became Mets GM. And 2/3 are winners so far. And the one which ended up not to be was not initially criticized by many people. Omar was a lousy trader.
LMAO
cant say it was a steal b/c it was only for 1 year???
lmaoooooo
if sandy got 3 weeks of good production from torres or ramirez u would be doing jumping jacks
angel pagan started on a WS winning team all year…
Yup, can’t say it was a steal because it was just for 1 year.
Nope, would never do jumping jacks over only 3 weeks of good performance.
And, LOL, what does starting for a WS team all year have to do with anything? Brandon Crawford also started for a WS team all year. So?
Yes, anyone can trade a valuable asset for prospects, but some are better at it than others.
I think initially one can definitely call a trade a winner or loser. Then if the main players in a trade pan out or don’t, you can re-assess and change the verdict.
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>Omar
anyone can trade a valuable asset for prospects….
and until the prospects actually pan out…u cant say that Sandy won that trade…
Omar got a Cy Young award winner for 4 scrubs…
Sandy trades a Cy young winner for 4 prospects
until those prospects pan out …or are traded for players who pan out…
Omar >>>>> sandy
Wait Johan won a CY Young with the Mets? Damn, I missed it. Unless you are saying the fact that he traded for a CY Young means he wins the trade? In that case Sandy should trade for Glavine, I am sure he’s available.
Did Toronto not just trade for a Cy Young award winner?
As for the Johan trade, Johan held all the cards in that trade. He virtually dictated where he wanted to go. The Twins had few options and so made the best deal they could. And they got just about the best prospects in the Mets farm system.
Sandy trades a CY winner and gets back 2 ELITE prospects. Omar would never have gotten the same haul back. He was too soft in negotiations. He would have blinked first.
“until those prospects pan out …or are traded for players who pan out…”
Until Dickey wins a Cy Young with the Jays he just paid top dollar for what a player did somewhere else. Thus you can’t say either way who won the trade yet. Even the Johan trade, who won? I think it was a good trade and I would do it over and over again, but who won?
Do you understand what before, during, and after mean? Wow.
I said he was injured before the trade.
Then you come back and say no, he was injured after the trade.
So I come back and say no, he was also injured BEFORE the trade.
And I am right.
Gosh, grow up damaja. It’s OK to admit it when you are wrong which is so often, lol.
what was the mets record while reyes was injured?
what was the mets record when he came back before Beltran got traded?
when Reyes and Murphy ( who was lost for the YEAR ) were injured, it was AFTER the trade
the mets were still in the thick of it…so nope…you are still wrong.
WTF does the Mets record that year have to do with the fact that you were totally wrong when you said Reyes wasn’t injured till after Beltran got traded.
Stop going off on tangents to try to salvage yourself and cover up your errors. Just be an adult and admit you were wrong.
nope…i was just fine…reyes was healthy for 2 weeks before beltran was traded…the mets were in the thick of it when beltran was traded. reyes and murphy were injured after…
losing the 4 most productive players around the same time will probably K-O your season
Nope, you were wrong. You said Reyes wasn’t injured till after the trade and that’s false.
And I was right when I said he was injured before the trade and wasn’t playing at the same level when he came back that he was earlier in the year.
Reyes’ OPS between the time he came back from his FIRST injury to the time he got injured again was just .691.
So again, Ike being out permanently for that season, Santana never coming back, Reyes coming off an injury and not playing like he did before, and Wright suffering a broken back all had to do with Alderson’s decision to trade Beltran. The Mets were in it at the time, but it was a long shot and they were a broken ship.
>>>You are a really sad sack for being so obsessed with race and Omar Minaya.
Yup…and like the thousands of upset white folks calling WFAN, or complaining about the Los Mets uniforms…u assume Omar was looking out for his people when it came to the mets….
Omar and Beltran now have a “personal” relationship…that went beyond the “nuts” and bolts of baseball…it was so personal that Omar would defy Fred Wilpon ( even though he needs his approval ) and would refuse to trade Carlos Beltran under any circumstances…he would even want to resign him…despite the fact that he was the teams best player in 2011…better than ANY MET PLAYER IN 2012…( yes including Dr. David Dimples ) and likely would be a top player on the Met roster from now til age 40
Yes !
Its all b/c Omar and Carlos are good friends !!!
The fact that they are both latinos is just a mere coincidence !
He’s gone. Not everything is about race. Get over him and it!
Again, he was personally invested in Beltran because he recruited him hard and Beltran was his biggest signing until Johan came along.
But feel free to see race in everything. You are pathetic with a humongous chip on your shoulder and it;s emblazoned with the word RACE.
I feel sorry for you.
“he recruited him hard and Beltran was his biggest signing until Johan came along.”
So yes, he recruited him “hard” …
i see the innuendo you are throwing in there…
gross
LMFAO … and now you have a sexual hangup too? LOL
i dont want to picture my fave GM of all time playing pitcher/catcher with my favorite CF of all time
And you wouldn’t need to if you weren’t so obsessed about sex as you are about race.
Its very ok on this site to hate on Omar and Latinos, but if you say anything to the puppet queen jessup, bye bye. Metro 12 is allowedto be a bigot openly and to try to make fun of Dmaaja freely and without limit. Proves what this site is. A hate site.
Hmmm … can you point to anything specific I said that is bigoted?
Or am I bigoted simply because I think Omar was an average GM with many flaws?
I don’t know but it sure was fun to watch someone else call out DA on all his uh… inaccuracies.
TRS not only did Metro call him out he ate him up for breakfast, lunch and dinner and mixed in a couple of protein shakes. I truly enjoyed that.
no, you just think Sandy farts febreeze and anything Omar touched turned to shit …
your wild double-standards have nothing to do with perception at all…
Right, uh-huh. I think everything Omar touched turned to shit. That’s why I said he was AVERAGE, and why I said I would rank him a 5 out of 10 when it comes to being a GM.
If you want to see what the ultimate is in double standards and lack of objectivity, look in the mirror, damaja. It’s standing right in front of you!
“I think everything Omar touched turned to shit. ”
LMAOOOOO
You do know I was just paraphrasing you and mocking your line, don’t you? It was YOU who used the term “shit.” Follow the bouncing ball, damaja!
according to sandy fans the only bigot is a reverse bigot
Fonzie13: Metro13 got his ass whopped on this board…and hell i ate you up when you asked for me to point out moments where u made up shit…
Interesting tactic there, but transparent and hollow. Its like the U.S. withdrawing from Vietnam and declaring victory, lol. You were beaten bad (like with the attendance rankings, lmfao) but hey if it makes you feel good to proclaim victory, who am I to deny you your delusion. Delude all you want!
my point – sandy never won with a shoe-string budget is still not challenged by u, fonzie or any member of the firm…
that isnt vietnam, that’s mike tyson vs spinks in 88…with u going down in 90 seconds lol
lmao transparent and hollow = beltran and omar having a “personal” connection before 2004..something u still havent proven…
“sandy never won with a shoe-string budget”
Now how is that directly relevant to anything?
We do know he won with a middling budget. Which is much more than Omar ever did, who could only win with a top 1 or 2 budget.
And it’s just like Vietnam. You are the USA, getting squashed but proclaiming victory!
Regarding Beltran and Omar … Omar was active in LA scouting for many many years and it’s likely he knew Beltran from then. But, as I already said — and this is important — Omar likely had a close affinity with Beltran because he was his first big mega-contract signing and he pursued Beltran rigorously. He had a lot invested with Beltran personally. You seem to conveniently leave that out. But then there appears to a hole in your thinking so I’m not surprised there are so may leaks in logic and information!
Which you have failed repeatedly to point out. But please continue to obsess over double standards. I love when people obsess over things they have no control over. It’s fun watching you stress out over it.
lol
yes i cant control your stupidity…but it is fun pointing it out
At age 34, Chipper Jones did not sign a 6 year extension…
but according to Fonzie13′s fuzzy math…2 extensions signed back to back are really 1
who the fork is your accountant ?!!?
lmaooooooo
“Omar was active in LA scouting for many many years and it’s likely he knew Beltran from then.”
So in other words…he saw Beltran’s name on a list of top prospects from latin america…
picked Jonathan Johnson in the 1st round…passed up his personal friend Beltran….then picked Phil Lowery in the 2nd round…passing up Beltran again !!!
but yea….its “likely” he knew Beltran…so of course Metro12 thinks they had a personal relationship
of course the whole LA thing connects them !
Omar is connected to all players south of the border and is there good buddy and friend
that makes sense !!!
At the time Beltran was a hot prospect and drafted, Omar was director of scouting for LA for the Rangers. I’d be shocked if he didn’t know Beltran personally from that time. For him not to have scouted Beltran closely during those years and to have only seen his name “on a list of top prospects from LA” is unlikely.
And, no, I never said they had a :”personal relationship” or were “personal friends” prior to his coming to the Mets. They weren’t close buddies who kicked back together with a beer or two. LOL, your serious reading comprehension issues arise again! Or perhaps you just like to distort words on purpose?
I said they had a “personal connection” which likely started from their familiarity during Omar’s scouting days and continued with his personal pursuit later and eventual signing with the Mets.
This all makes perfect sense, of course. Unless you are damaja with that huge chip on his shoulder!
>>At the time Beltran was a hot prospect and drafted, Omar was director of scouting for LA for >>>the Rangers.
Beltran was so hot, that Omar passed up on him twice in the draft before KC picked him up
>>>>I’d be shocked if he didn’t know Beltran personally from that time.
Wait…so ur saying that since Beltran was a “hot prospect”, you would be shocked if Omar didnt know him PERSONALLY !!!
Because Omar as Asst. VP, personally knows every hot prospect from Puerto Rico and Latin America !!!
Yup…nothing to do with his heritage….
>>>to have scouted Beltran closely during those years and to have only seen his name “on a >>>list of top prospects from LA” is unlikely.
so now Omar goes from Asst VP in charge of the scouting director…and then the scouts…to now scouting Beltran closely…”during those years” ….yes…Omar was hiding in Beltran’s backyard while he played catch with his parents during his formative years…it all makes sense now !!!
>>>And, no, I never said they had a :”personal relationship” or were “personal friends” prior to his >>>coming to the Mets. They weren’t close buddies who kicked back together with a beer or >>>two. LOL, your serious reading comprehension issues arise again! Or perhaps you just like >>>to distort words on purpose?
wait ….here it comes…
I said they had a “personal connection” which likely started from their familiarity during Omar’s scouting days and continued with his personal pursuit later and eventual signing with the Mets.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yes, not a personal relationship…a connection…which “likely” ( meaning you dont know ) started with their familiarity ( b/c Beltran was really aware of Omar and the 29 other scouts )
>>>This all makes perfect sense, of course. Unless you are damaja with that huge chip on his >>>>shoulder!
No, this all makes sense if you are Metro12 and you assume that Omar would let heritage get in the way of doing what was possibly right for the organization.
THAT’s the ONLY way that works
Huh? Just because a scout knows a prospect personally why would that mean he would then have to choose him first or even second? LOL. The Rangers drafted the best talent at the time in their estimation. Your comment makes ZERO sense.
No. I’m saying because Beltran was a hot prospect in LA it would be highly unlikely that Omar didn’t scout him and know him personally, since it was his job to know all top prospects in that region. So if he were doing his job well, he probably scouted him personally.
YUP … nothing to do with his heritage and EVERYTHING to do with his job.
And I’m not sure why you’re so surprised Omar might have scouted Beltran when he was head of LA scouting for the Rangers. When he was Mets GM he personally scouted some prospects. For example many of the top prospects in the Pelfrey draft. So he had a higher job and was still scouting prospects personally!!!!!
Yes, not a personal relationship…a connection…which “likely” ( meaning you dont know ) started with their familiarity ( b/c Beltran was really aware of Omar and the 29 other scouts )
YUP, exactly. A high likelihood that Omar and Beltran knew each other. And Beltran probably knew many of the other scouts as well
No, this all makes sense if you are Metro12 and you assume that Omar would let heritage get in the way of doing what was possibly right for the organization.
LMFAO. I never said anything about “heritage” … but of course damaja being damaja and that huge chip on his shoulder EVERYTHING under the sun is about race.
It is still my view that in the case of Omar and Beltran, his personal affinity to Beltran would have prevented form making any move with him in July of 2011. There is NO way he would have made trade as stunning as the Zack Wheeler. For that personal reason AND more.
BTW, you do know that Omar is not the first nor the last GM that has been impacted by personal considerations when making trades and acquisitions, don’t you? Get that chip off your shoulders for at least a few minutes and try to think of things rationally and objectively for once.
“Huh? Just because a scout knows a prospect personally why would that mean he would then have to choose him first or even second? LOL. The Rangers drafted the best talent at the time in their estimation. Your comment makes ZERO sense.”
Omar was Asst. GM from 92-97…he was no longer a scout…and he was also picking folks for the MLB draft…
There is a better chance Omar had a “personal” connection with RA Dickey ( a guy, who on record, he actually scouted, spoke to, and signed ) ….then when RA Dickey was with Seattle, in 2008, Omar inquired about getting him…
Everything you said about Beltran, makes sense if you apply to someone you actually have proof he had a connection with…
there are literally THOUSANDS of prospects in DR, PR, Panama, Mexico, Venenzuela and Cuba
to say that Omar had to know Beltran because he was a “hot prospect” ( even though he wasnt ) is just you making up some fluff to justify your reasoning ( or lack thereof ) that Omar had some “personal connection” with Beltran.
If this was Chuck Belt from Mineola, drafted in the 2nd round of the 1995 draft by another team, you wouldnt see the connection between him and Omar…but b/c it was latino named Carlos Beltran,….Omar had to know !
Yes, this only makes sense if Beltran is a LA prospect !!!
i doubt he would be a german living in puerto rico…his heritage has nothing to do with this…
nothing to see here !!!
Do you have any proof that Omar wasn’t in a scouting position with the Rangers at the time Beltran was drafted? Do you have proof that he had any role with the Rangers other than a scouting one? A title of “Ass’t GM” can mean many things, with the titleholder having a variety of responsibilities, depending on the organization.
It’s likely Omar had a personal connection with both RA and Beltran. And I also think just like Omar wouldn’t have traded Beltran mid-season 2011, he would not have traded Dickey this winter either.
And, of course, there are literally thousands of prospects in LA at any given time. But there are not thousands of TOP prospects every year. The number of LA prospects of Beltran’s caliber the year he got drafted was likely less than 10.
The idea that Omar likely knew Beltran from this time is common sense.
And that’s a pretty moronic analogy using Chuck Belt, a hypothetical 2nd round draftee. First off, the pool of top prospects from the mainland is so much larger than those in just LA. Second, why would Omar have a personal connection with someone from Mineola if his territory were LA. LMFAO. Try to make some sense, damaja!
because Omar was a scout from 85-92…scouting director from 92-94 head of PROFESSIONAL SCOUTING from 94-97
he was involved in that bigger pool u were talking about ( mainland ) in the years Beltran and Dickey were drafted…
this is RA dickey spoke about Omar from their Texas days…
and beltran nor omar never once mentioned having known each other
I have facts
you have speculation
facts>>speculation
Omar>>>sandy
Me>>>>You
deal with it
LOL, thanks for proving MY point. That despite a fancy title, he was still basically in a scouting position with the Rangers. Just because he was involved in the bigger pool, doesn’t mean he wasn’t still involved in LA scouting.
And again, with your hypothetical Mineola prospect, you’re talking about maybe the 50th best prospect on the mainland. With Beltran, you’re talking likely top 5 prospect in LA (eligible for the draft). Big difference.
And they needn’t mention their prior history for it to be there.
You are speculating just as much as I am here.
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>Omar
Me>>>>>>>>>>>>You
Those are the facts!
Hi Metro,
My point was that many of us saw the team as it was in November of 2010 as being quite a good one that could make things happen with the addition of a small amount of good players instead of the bargain basement kind Sandy went shopping for. If they re-signed Beltran, and kept KRod, the addition of those few good men might have been the necessary means to put them back to being a serious contender. And gradually, as Beltran got older, he could be replaced by a younger player out of the farm system. Same with KRod, and Dickey.
The team could have contended and build for the future at the same time. Madoff made off with those chances.
OK, Joey. Gotcha. Sure, they could have gone the other way, but given the amount of albatross contracts on the book at the time, plus the impending lawsuit crisis and the ensuing tighter lockdown on the payroll, that was not going to be possible. Instead we got Madoffball.
Many are rightly angry at the Wilpons for letting the Mets get into that precarious position, but it appears the worst is over, and I think they deserve a little patience to see how Sandy’s plan works out. My patience isn’t endless, so even I will want to see serious improvement in the near future. We shall see.
Hi Metro,
ARMISTACE DAY!
Fonzie,
Take all that I have been saying so to put my feelings into proper context,
I started off looking at the team as it was at the end of the 2010 season and mentioned that that with some good tweaking it could have been a contender going into the 2011 season. The moves Sandy made did not provide that extra tweaking but instead caused the team to be much weaker before even going into spring training. It wasn’t just bad judgement – he was looking for ways to fill the roster as inexpensively as possible, in which he admitted in that interview with Mike Francesa in Spetmeber when he acknowledged he had to sign inexpensive players due to the financial situation and added that a team could not win with players who could only give fifty percent.
So he releases two productive elements from our 2010 bullpen because he did not want to sign Takahashi and Feliciano to two-year contracts (Sandy had no hindsight about Pedro’s upcoming injury since he did offer him a one year contract as he did Takahashi – and it wasn’t the annual salary that was the sticking point for either player- it was the single year instead of two). He replaces them with pitchers of lesser quality along with other who were also less expensive (Carasco, Boyer, Bulchotz, etc.)
He also did not take measures to strengthen the back of our rotation but instead signed reclamation projects Young and Capuano – Young was out for most of the season and Capuano only looked good because he got the seventh highest run support for any starter in the league.
So going into 2011, I was among those fans who thought it was indeed going to be a long season because of the moves made and not made that winter. I was not altogether surprised when they got off to their worst start since the 1964 season by going 5-14.
But then Murphy replaced Emus at second and despite injuries to Wright and Davis, the Mets started playing great ball. It’s reflected more than just in the .575 clip they played for about 85 games (which if continued would have put them on pace for about 87 wins). We saw in them a team playing with extreme confidence, never giving up when behind as we saw from so many late inning rallies, coming through with clutch hits, not beating themselves and properly executing. And doing this basically without any contributions from the players Sandy obtained.
If one needs to be reminded about how well the team was playing, watch that replay of the Pagan game when he won it with a home run headed toward the SNY guys sitting in the Pepsi porch. Watch it not because of the game itself for to use one game as the basis to judge a team is of course ridiculous. It’s not the one game but all being said about the team during those eleven innings by Gary, Keith and Ron. They talk about the tremendous strides the Mets had shown, alluding to in more detail the points I mentioned above and contemplating how with help in the form of a returning Wright (and possibly Davis) this team could continue contending the rest of the season. Was some of it hype? Certainly. But was it insincere as well? Certainly not.
After listening to the commentaries throughout the broadcast that focused on how the team had gotten to the point that it did, one cannot deny that they were playing excellent ball and deserved a chance to finish what it had started instead of letting the front office finish it for them. Were they playing over their heads and just hanging around? Very well yes – even if Murphy and Neise did not get injured.
Also attached is an article written right before the trade. Note what was written:
“Of course, on nights like this, with Beltran and Reyes bringing life to a big crowd at Citi Field, GM Sandy Alderson must at least be tempted to hold on tight to Beltran and give this team every chance to make a run at a wild-card berth.
“Except it’s hard to find anyone who has ever worked for Alderson who thinks he will let such temptation get in the way of his vision for the future. :Sandy will not make any decision based on emotion, I can tell you that for sure,” a scout who once worked under Alderson said Tuesday night. “If he doesn’t think they have a realistic shot (at catching the Braves), he’ll stick to his plan, which I would think means trading Beltran.”
And I won’t hide the fact that the author doubted the Mets had a shot by concluding:
“The Mets need to look to the future – they are too far behind the Braves and others to make a run at the wild card realistic.”
OK, maybe my using the word “thick” to describe the Mets position at that time might have been from being a bit over-enthusiastic, however, the fact is that around that a few days later still only one game separated them in the wild card standings with the eventual world champion St. Louis Cardinals. Would it have been correct for a St. Louis sports writer to also conclude at the time “The Cardinals need to look to the future – they are too far behind the Braves and others to make a run at the wild card realistic.” ?
I’ve seen too many teams come from much further back and leap frog over other teams to win it all to believe a team is out of it being in the position the Mets were in. Anyone notice what Oakland’s record was after 90 games this year? They were just two games over .500 and nine games out of first place. We all know what happened after that.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2012-schedule-scores.shtml
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/inevitable-carlos-beltran-trade-personal-new-york-mets-manager-terry-collins-article-1.160098#ixzz2HdWASFHr
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/inevitable-carlos-beltran-trade-personal-new-york-mets-manager-terry-collins-article-1.160098#ixzz2HdWASFHr
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/inevitable-carlos-beltran-trade-personal-new-york-mets-manager-terry-collins-article-1.160098
Joey D.,
a key element in assessing where your team stands is the question whether you believe the team has overachieved so far or underachieved so far.
I believe most people were quite surprised at how competitive the 2011 Mets had been through mid July – in spite of missing their ace, Johan Santana, plus Ike Davis being out longer than expected and David Wright hurt by injuries too.
Basically, Jose Reyes MVP caliber 1st half – which was hardly sustainable – Carlos Beltran´s resurgence and very strong hitting from Daniel Murphy had provided for most of the offense, while the rotation did surprisingly well thanks to Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey and to a lesser degree Capuano stepping up with Santana out. Plus the bullpen also doing surprisingly well with Isringhausen, Parnell, Byrdak and early on Beato and Buchholz chipping in at surprisingly good levels.
Maybe, realistically, Alderson & Co. (rightfully) believed that Reyes & Beltran weren´t going to be as good in the 2nd half as they had been in the first half just like the patchwork bullpen wasn´t going to hold up. Santana´s & Ike´s returns remained very much up in the air. K-Rod´s option wasn´t going to be allowed to vest – even had the Mets been in 1st place to avoid a total payroll collapse for 2012.
Then Reyes got injured which basically sealed the deal and coincided with the Mets slipping after the All Star break and leading up to the Beltran deal.
Again, in 2004 the Mets, being in a similar situation, made an aggressive move towards chasing an unlikely Wild Card – and severely hurt the team going forward in the process. This time, they played it right.
Oh, and btw, I believe Byrdak & Capuano were very nice replacements for Feliciano & Takahashi – basically the two pieces they replaced, just for half the cost. And whatever Michael Fulmer ends up providing will be an added bonus from that decision.
Again, I do believe – leaving money aside – one could have built a legit 2011 contender. However, due to the lack of major league ready prospects with high upsides, it would have meant major investments into the major league roster in the 2010 / 2011 off-season via free agency. Instead of the miniscule 10 to 12 million $ budget Alderson had to fill 6 to 8 spots on the roster, you would have needed probably 35 to 40 million $ to add the free agent talent necessary to turn the 2011 Mets into a legit contender, i.e. go with a payroll of 165 million $ or so. Certainly not an option in real life back then.
I’m Sorry Dooby but there is really no such thing as under/over achieved….
To say a team Under/Over Achieved is really just a statement about YOUR PRE-CONCIEVED EVALATION not the team itself…You thought this BUT they did that….
As Parcells was fond of saying…You ARE what your record SAYS you are!
If they had a .514 Win Pct midway through the season they then they were a team CAPABLE of ending with a .514 Win Pct and if they could play at a .593 Win Pct clip in June they were also capable of doing it again and going far beyong just that .514 Win Pct.
This argument that we were too far behind and that the Cards were a much better team is not supported by the stats at all!
Our Record vs the Cards was .500 3-3 which pretty much means we were AS good as them when we faced them! It would have been a winning record vs the Cards if we had not lost 2 of 3 to them in Sept after Beltran and K-Rod were gone!
The Cardinals overcame the deficit to over take the Braves. A team we had a 9-9 record against that year! We went 4-5 without Beltran and K-Rod in the second half.
Of the teams that were ahead of us in the Wildcard at the time of the Beltran trade…
Atl -9-9
Cards 3-3
Pit 4-4
Ari 3-3 (note we Swept them in our first meeting, Traded Beltran and then they swept us in Aug)
Those are the 4 Wildcard teams ahead of us that made many here say SEASON OVER EVERYTHING MUST GO!
Those are the teams you all say were SO MUCH better than us…
The record suggests otherwise and the record PRE FIRESALE suggest we were better than most of them!
So lets face facts they didn’t under/over achieve..
You Underestimated them all due to that poor 5-13 start all in the name of some philosophy that has never worked to bring a WS to anyone who tried it! All because you judges the actions of a GM based on the Payroll column and not the WIN column and RECORD vs the competition you thought we had not shot at!
If you are what your record SAYS you are then we were just as good as anyone who may have been a game or two or three ahead of us because at the time with the players WE HAD we were beating all of them right until the time we didn’t have them anymore because your logic on them being overachievers was willed into being true by that thinking you did in the first place!
What I find just so diconcerting here is you guys seemingly have NO ISSUE holding hope on UNPROVEN KIDS most of whom you have NEVER SEEN play a game of baseball or have yet to accomplish or put up the numbers that warrants thier high placement on BA’s prospect list but when the team right in front of your eyes has a .519 WinPct in May,.593 Win Pct in June, and a .519 Win Pct in July you won’t believe that at all, just isn’t possible or true.
How can you put such hope into the unseen maybe but dismiss so readily when it is right there in front of you and proving itself?
And in the end what will happen is these kids you are so hot over will eventually be here and you will dismiss them as quickly because you pumped yourself up so much on thier expectations they can’t POSSIBLY live up to them and they too will be traded off because you think the team is UNDER/OVER achieving and must be traded off for more kids.
Vicious cycle my friend!
Hi DrD.,
And your assessment of why Sandy made the moves he did is why I say one should not make the mistake of justifying these moves based on either a well thought out short or long term baseball vision. Putting together the 2011 club had nothing to do with competitive integrity as it did with corporate financial strategy.
I also disagree that what the Mets needed were major and very expensive free agent signings in order to put the Mets back into the hunt going into 2011. Good supporting players to blend in with the core they had would have been good enough. Of course, that is just an opinion and even though we both disagree on this, it’s looking at the Mets in terms of baseball and not business which is what it should be. The fact that we all have to look at things in terms of the business is a sad commentary on the Mets financial state of affairs due to the Wilpons being aided by the commissioner so not to have them sell the team.
Joey – well done. Written with passion.
Thank you TL, nice of you to say.
It’s passion that makes sports something to treasure. When it comes down to having more faith in cold stats – like comparing the Mets roster to that of St. Louis – and concluding the Mets didn’t have a chance and thus the front office made the right decision with KRod and Beltran, that goes against competitive integrity which is what that passion is all about. For that type of passion, I can stick with watching the business news all day.
How could one really be a fan if not rooting for his team when an underdog? Maybe that was what Jeff in his way thought he was expressing when he got those players those tee-shirts, not understanding it is one thing for fans to think in that manner but for those in the uniform it’s a professional insult and not funny.
To me, the ones who said we were right to get rid of KRod and Beltran might not realize they were also insulting the team as well. As R.A. said, it hurt knowing the front office had little faith in them.
Sometimes faith goes much further than logic. Of course, in the business world that baseball has become, relying on faith to make make or save money is not deemed logical. Those trades in 2004 to give the Mets a push forward were a reflection of poor moves by the general manager and should not be used as the basis not to to do something in future years. I hope the same should be learned from 2011 when it was a matter of money that Sandy got rid of two of his top players not caring that it was going to push the team backwards instead of being construed that pulling the rug from underneath the players is the way one should to build for the future.
Sandy Alderson and the Mets would not be facing the threat of more empty seats had they approached 2011 differently. While treating baseball as a business, they failed to recognize that part of the business of owning a major league baseball team is trying to sell something for the fans to be passionate about. Or perhaps they see their patrons as no longer being fans with passion and instead more logical looking at the game with a business attitude.
“To me, the ones who said we were right to get rid of KRod and Beltran might not realize they were also insulting the team as well. As R.A. said, it hurt knowing the front office had little faith in them.”
is there a stat for that ?
Joey, you make a good point about St. Louis and where they stood in the WC standings at the time of the trade. However, the Cardinals not only had better horses at the time to go the distance, but they were not under the same financial cloud and restrictions the Mets were under. Just think — the winter following that 2011 season, they spent way more than the Mets did, acquiring Beltran and others.
Madoffball has its consequences. And it’s the Wilpons’ fault, not Sandy’s.
The fact that Reyes had a falloff in performance after getting off the DL for the first time that year must also have impacted their decision. His OPS was just .691 after that first DL stint and before the 2nd one began later in August. And then Johan wasn’t coming back, Ike was out for the year. And Wright had a bad back. I think all those things just tipped the balance too much onto the side of a trade.
I can see both sides of the argument. Both sides have merit. I think they made the right decision, though.
” they spent way more than the Mets did, acquiring Beltran and others.”
you mean the after they won a WS?
o yeah…how much did payroll go up when they basically swapped Pujols salary for Beltran’s
Maybe the Cardinals happened to be a better team in 2011 than the Mets – and it only showed in their tremendous stretch drive.
Even by keeping Carlos Beltran and K-Rod at the 2011 deadline, I don´t see the 2011 Mets winning anywhere 90 games that year without Santana, with Reyes at only half-speed, let alone Ike Davis not returning, David Wright not being 100 % either and Jon Niese running out of gas later on. The only option would have been aggressive trading to add talent at the July 31st deadline.
Say, Matt Harvey and Jeurys Familia to CLE for Ubaldo Jimenez to add a SP.
And Colin McHugh and Wilmer Flores to SD for Mike Adams to add a RP.
Plus, of course, keep Beltran and K-Rod. In that case, the Mets would probably have had a much better shot to catch the Braves or Phillies (or Nationals).
We were 2-1 against that “allegedly” better team before we traded off the guys we had that helped us beat them!
That must mean the 1986 Phillies were better than the 1986 Mets since they had a better head to head record. LMAO
Perhaps they cold have been had they played up to the standards that got them that record vs us….
Point is if your capable of doing something against the BEST then your capable of doing it against everyone!
We WERE doing it against everyone in 2011 as our .593 in June proves was possible!
Well,if you’re incapable of doing what’s needed against the LESSER teams, then you’re capable of falling apart against the best as well, LOL.
And you can’t just look at one month, LOL. You have to look at the entire record up to that point in time, and the record wasn’t pretty.
Metsie lives in a “perhaps” world whereas the rest of us embrace reality!
I guess it never occurred to you that they may not have faced all the BAD teams the Cards had already faced yet?
You see the Cards played a lot of those wea teams as they were division rivals of teams like the Pirates and Houston and play those teams more than we do….
Never occurred to you did it?
Guess it wasn’t on that Paper you been watching,,,,
I guess it never occurred to you that it’ may have been the Cards who had more games left against the weaker teams in the league. I guess it never occurred to you that since the Mets had problems facing the weaker teams in the first half that facing weaker teams in the second half might be a problem? LOL. Metsie logic goes haywire again!
Never occurred to you, did it?
Guess it wasn’t part of the latest delusion you’ve been dreaming up!
Go play your last man standing game with Fonzie Metro….
You two make a great pair never any facts, make threads go to 200 Comments and when all else fails say the other guy is a LIAR!
I would swear you two are the same guy!
Haha. You wouldn’t know a fact if it smacked you in the face a million times.
But hey, I’m waiting. Show some facts to support your latest pea-brained fantasy of yours that strength of remaining schedule was in the Mets favor. I’m waiting.
You like to throw out your delusional theories but never back them up!
I still get a kick out of how you accuse everybody else of what you do. Flame out threads always have to be the last man standing an make up shit to weasel out of being wrong and It seems like you and Jus Da Dumbass share the same delusional brain.
Yeah the Your a Liar speech from MetroFonzie!
ROFLMAO!
metsie, you’re without a doubt the most juvenile and delusional poster I’ve ever come across on a forum. Seriously, are you 12 years old? Maybe that’s giving you TOO much credit.
Why because I refuse to engage the insane crazy folks like you….
LMFAO … you’re the one who engaged me in this conversation by replying to one of my posts. Which shows just how monumentally confused you are by saying you refuse to engage me … LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too funny!
You really are 12, aren’t you? Does your mommy and daddy know how late you’re staying up past your bedtime?
Yep…as I thought…Pure Looney!
Yup, that’s what you get when you look in the mirror, LOL!
Yes, I mean after they won the WS.
Who said payroll went up?
The point is Mozeliak was able to use what came off the books and plow all of it into new players. Plus he had additional money. Whereas, Alderson had money coming off the payroll after 2011 and he could NOT reuse it all for other assets.
Mozeliak had roughly 20 million to spend at the end of 2011. Sandy had about 10-12 million, despite the fact many more millions came off the book. Whoopee!
So, absolutely yes. The Cardinals had more money to spend after 2011 than the Mets.
It is time for you Alderson to stop posting under this false name. There is nota real fan who would defend you like you do. What a fake metro number.
LOL, OK. You got me! Gotta go now anyway, Buddy needs a snack and a walk!
“The point is Mozeliak was able to use what came off the books and plow all of it into new players. ”
the extra MILLIONS generated in fan attendance through August-Sept-October plus post-season revenue may have had something to do with that….
i believe in 2006, the cardinals made an extra 20+ million with their playoff run
simply not putting out a good product in NY is the fastest way to lose money
sandy alderson came here to lower payroll, help raise attendance, but not necessarily improve the product.
having mike nikeus as ur backup veteran to mentor thole is not improving the product in the long run
getting rid of izzy, who was a great mentor for parnell is not improving the product in the long run
trading pagan for 2 guys heading into free-agency is not improving the product in the long run
not trading your most valuable trade chip in DW and signing him to an 8 year deal is not improving the product in the long run
hell keeping Dan Warthen is not improving the product in the long run
trashing RA dickey on his way out is not improving the product in the long run
having an absolute failure like Depo running the draft is not improving the product in the long run
anyone else notice, we’ve had 3 scouting directors in the past 3 years
2010 – Rudy T – the guy who signed Ike Davis and matt harvey e s
2011 – Chad McDonald – a guy with no ties to sandy / jp / depo quits in 1 year
2012 – Tom Tanous – a former JP Riccardi employee from toronto, first time scouting director
and this comes along with eliminating the position of MLB director of operations, those duties will be split among other execs…
i guess sandy does not believe in spending money if u dont have to…
can someone remind me what is it that JP Riccardi does again?
simply not putting out a good product in NY is the fastest way to lose money
sandy alderson came here to lower payroll, help raise attendance, but not necessarily improve the product.
And you can’t put out a good product when you’re hobbled by albatross contracts that Omar left behind, and a mediocre-poor farm system which Omar also left behind, and a financial mess of a franchise which Madoff and the Wilpons were responsible for.
Sandy was brought in to lower the payroll, help raise attendance AND improve the product as much as possible within the limitations he found. But he was given an almost impossible task and peanuts to spend in the beginning, thanks to the Wilpons and Omar who tied up the roster with so many underperfoming costly contracts.
What Sandy smartly realized was the chances of the Mets making a deep postseason run in 2011 and 2012 were virtually impossible. So where he could, he took the most valued assets which were also expendable and turned them into elite prospects which put the club in a better position to compete in the near future when some of the leftover talent like Harvey and Ike would have developed further as well … and when the franchise would be more financially sound and better prepared to support higher payrolls.
He didn’t hold delusional dreams like you and little metsie do. He dealt with reality.
Omar is a decent person, but he was never cut out to be a GM, and will likely never be a GM again in the majors. It’s true …
Sandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Omar
Without a doubt!
So where he could, he took the most valued assets which were also expendable
and turned them into elite prospects which put the club in a better position
u mean like reyes ? traded for nobody..
u mean like pagan? traded for 2 guys approaching free-agency?
u mean like wright? 8 year 138 mil
and even the other assets that were not as valuable but had some value, such as hairston and byrdack…were kept to keep the mets as sandy said…competitive…b/c it was about changing perceptions…( aka a .500 season )
Huh? LOL. One, he wanted to resign Reyes. Two, when it didn’t happen he got back TWO draft picks.
And LOL at Pagan. He traded him for what AT THE TIME was generally felt to be a good haul. Even now, with the failure of Torres and Ramirez, not too many are missing Pagan. He certainly wasn’t “a most valued asset” at the time.
And not sure why you list Wright who was NOT expendable. Learn to read. I said EXPENDABLE!
And LOL at Byrdak and Hairston. Byrdak was not “a most valued”: asset. And Hairston had marginal value and was not expendable.
“One, he wanted to resign Reyes.”
Yeah to ZERO Mil per year for ZERO years because thats the offer Reyes got from him!
And stop with AT THE TIME crap on the Pagan trade because AT THE TIME the folks who liked that are all the same folks who think Sandy is doing a GREAT job while all those who have been complaining about Sandy hated that deal from the second it was announced!
Don’t believe me go back and read the posts from me and JoeD and many of the comments found in the SANDY HAD A GOOD DAY article that Jessup wishes he could take back already!
Yawn…..
“listen again ”
NO I don’t listen to insane nut jobs who think insistence is a substitute for fact!
Go have mommy bring you your bottle or your nurse bring you your meds and go to sleep!
No one is going to listen to a stark raving lunatic!
WHo thinks 2 games ahead makes another team MILES better!
No, listen again — It was the ofter Sandy made of 100 MILLION DOLLARS. Loria crazily came in with a higher offer and overpaid Reyes.
And you stop the CRAP about people disliking the Pagan deal. Because at the time, no one was complaining about it.
If you want to prove a point with a link, go ahead. No one is stopping you, little metsie. Post a link. But please, no more of those hilarious Harvard reports LMFAO!!!!!!!!
Yawn…..
“listen again ”
NO I don’t listen to insane nut jobs who think insistence is a substitute for fact!
Go have mommy bring you your bottle or your nurse bring you your meds and go to sleep!
No one is going to listen to a stark raving lunatic!
WHo thinks 2 games ahead makes another team MILES better!
No, you listen again … Omar made Reyes an offer worth about 100 MILLION dollars and he got crazy Loria to overpay him instead.
That’s the facts.
No one is going to listen to a 12 year old brat like you with a puny brain who can’t handle facts or numbers and is always confused and delusional.
Anyone who thinks the Mets had a good chance with FOUR teams to climb over and 7.5 games back from the lead is a total moron.
“No, you listen again…”
Nope We don’t listen to crazy folks…
And I don’t listen to over-emotional childish, immature , and ignorant fans like you.
“the Cardinals not only had better horses at the time to go the distance”
Bull….Pre-Beltran trade we had a 2-1 record with our horses vs thiers…
We trade Beltran and K-Rod and then thier horses beat us to a record of 1-2…
The only difference between thier horses and ours is they KEPT thiers!
No bull! Are you serious? You’re using a head-to-head in-season record to determine who has the better team. LOL. In recent years, including last year, the Mets have had a better head-to-head record against the Phillies. So?
The difference between their horses and the Mets:
–Cards had the better pitching including a better bullpen
–Cards had Pujols, a big difference-maker
–Cards had Larussa and Duncan vs. Collins and Warthen. Need I say more?
Yes I’m using head to head matchup….
What are you using a Ouiji board?
Or is this a case where the Math says something was not possible yet happened anyway despite all your spreadsheet predictions?
Like Mitch said yesterday…Looking good or better on paper is meaningless because they don’t play on paper they play on grass!
And on the grass the Mets were better than ALL of those teams that were ahead of them on a head to head basis…PROVEN by the fact they BEAT THEM!
Well that’s pretty stupid. Anyone with half a brain knows that head-to-head records in-season are not indicative of much — especially given the small sample size of a couple of games you pointed out. It means squat.
This is a case where you use common sense, and track records and reputations to assess who has the stronger team and the better chance. Especially when the Cards had the better pitching.
And the Mets were better head-to-head against the Phillies last season. And the Nats and the Marlins were better head-to-head than SF last season. Means diddley unless it’s the postseason.
Yeah it means nothng to anything except the WIN RECORD….
And yes I would agree you have HALF a brain if you think on paper is more meaningfull and real than ON GRASS!
Those with a COMPLETE Brain know what you do on the field is REAL and what you do on Paper is a FANTASY!
Only overall win record means anything. Head-to-head against one team in-season literallyt has no value/meaning. LOL. No one is saying to use paper results. Only OVERALL results on the field. Not this false cherry picking of a small slice of the season. You have a straw man argument there of paper vs. field. But that’s not the issue. It;s 3 games vs. the entire sample set PLUS track record and reputations PLUS superior pitching on the part of the Cardinals.
And what determines your overall record?
All those head to head matchups!
If you can beat and have a winning record against ALL the teams you think are better than you then you can beat EVERYONE!
Sorry your too stupid to realize that if you can have a winning record vs the Cards and Atlanta half way through the season you think it’s impoosible for the same team to do it in the last half….
I guess you just ran out of room on your paper!
Were they far ahead of us in overall record on July 28th?
NOPE!
But your simpleton ASSuption based on PAPER made your prediction true!
You gave up the players that had already PROVED they COULD BEAT all those teams you say were better than us but weren’t when ever we played them!
And what determines your overall record?
All those head to head matchups!
Thanks for proving me right! As I said, it’s ALL the matchups within a season that matters. A dinky 3-game sample size means absolute squat.
If you can beat and have a winning record against ALL the teams you think are better than you then you can beat EVERYONE!
Too bad you;re wrong here. That makes absolutely no sense. If you can beat and have a winning record against All the teams you “think” are better than you, not only does that have no bearing on your ability to beat “everyone” but it could mean that you still lose to teams you thought were inferior to you.
You are too idiotic to realize it. The only thing that matters is your ENTIRE record during the season.
What paper. I wasn’t using any but apparently you were using the toilet type to write down your bird-brained ideas!
I don’t use paper. I use common baseball sense. Something little metsie will never have.
Again. It doesn’t matter if you can beat the teams ahead of you if you can’t beat the teams behind you! That’s on your comical hilarious so-called “GRASS” little Metsie. Not on paper!
It makes no sense to you because you don’t have any sense…
You to busy looking at results and thinking those results would be the same if we kept Beltran and K-Rod when we all know the OVERALL results would have been MUCH DIFFERENT and would proved we were better not just based on head to head but overall as well!
But you keep watching that computer of yours….
LOL, this is a perfect example of your delusional mind and your TP ideas.
For anyone to say that if the Mets had kept CB and K-Rod they would have reached the postseason is pure whacked out given the team’s poor pitching, poor health, and recent tendencies to fade in the second halves. But it’s an idea fully worthy of your TP!
You keep writing your zany ideas on your TP if it makes you feel better. Then you know where you can send them!
Yeah and you keep insisting being two games behind the eventual Wild Card winner in July is too much too overcome….
All because your computer told you so….
The same computer that tells you Sandy is improving the team despite the fact his team has been worse than that 2011 squad you keep saying isn’t good enough….
based on OVERALL RECORD!
C’mon try to grow a brain cell or two. It’s not 2 games behind the WC winner. It’s 7.5 games behind the WC leader with 4 other teams ahead!
Pure delusion on your part. It’s like talking to a 5-year old who only sees what they want to see.
And of course Sandy is improving the team. But what about “prospects” don’t you understand?
Maybe you should invest in a dictonary, little Metsie. Might help you out a little.
Here try this brain cell on for size and see if it can grow in that pathetic intelligence starved head of yours….
What would Sandy have CALCULATED in 1969 and 1973 if you thought 7.5 games out of a WILDCARD was too much to overcome?
DO we win the WS then? Or do we just trade off Seaver then instead of waiting till 77?
Think about that and when you come up with an answer WHY it was not ok to quit then but was ok to quit in 2011….
Have Fun!
Wow, seriously? You’re going to compare the 1969 pitching staff with that of the 2011 Mets, LMFAO!
For someone who laughingly claims to watch real games, you know so little. Pitching is paramount in making viable playoff runs. The Mets in 2011 had a very inferior pitching staff overall. And Santana wasn’t coming back. The Mets in 1969 had an absolutely STELLAR staff. Does Seaver and Koosman ring a bell? How about McAndrew, Gentry and Cardwell. Or Taylor, McGraw and Ryan? Despite Dickey, the 2011 Mets pitching staff was like the LI Ducks compared to that steller ’69 Mets staff. You never give up on a team that is so rich in pitching and that is pitching so well.
Another thing, it’s totally laughable for you to compare Seaver as a trade asset to Beltran. Ridiculous. Or to K-Rod. K-Rod had a really ugly onerous option year to avoid. Name someone on the ’73 or ’69 teams with comparable poison contracts? And Beltran was a 34-year-old outfielder with bad knees in his last year who they likely wouldn’t resign. In addition, he was having a strong season, which meant he had considerable trade deadline value. Now name someone on either the ’69 or ’73 teams who was comparable?
Alderson didn’t have a fire sale in 2011. It was just that he was sitting on one ugly onerous contract and one very valuable yet expendable asset. So it was the perfect time to get rid of the former and to parlay the latter into a more valuable asset. And when he looked at the 4 teams ahead of the Mets and the fact the Mets were 7.5 games back, he correctly calculated the Mets chances were poor for getting to the postseason anyway.
Different teams and times. They are not comparable. But only your tiny baseball mind would think otherwise.
Pay attention, metsie and learn the game!
Yes I am bcause in 1969 (about 20 years before you were born I suspect) no one knew what Seaver, Koosman, Ryan and Gentry were going to become!
But you keep convincing yourself that mere insistence is enough to offset your lack of facts….
Bottomline here is the Mets were much further behind and much later in the season than the 2011 Mets were and had NO WILDCARD to cling to!
Had more games behind, more teams ahead of them and with this crap you call “SMART CALCULATION) would have traded all the All stars away due to some MATH CALCULATION you think told you the end result….
LMFAO! Right, no one knew in 1969 what Seaver was going to become because he was only ROY 2 years before and made the All-Star team the previous year! Yeah, sure, he was a complete surprise, just like Dickey! LOLOLOL.
And Koosman? Another total unknown! Forget the fact that he was on the All-Star team the previous year, or came in 2nd in ROY voting. He just laid in the weeds and shocked everyone in ’69! Again, just like Dickey in 2010! LOLOL
You are too funny, little metsie.
And, again, name comparable trade assets on the ’69 team to K-Rod and Beltran. One with an onerous option year, the other a 34-year-old who was having a good year but likely wasn’t coming back.
Apples and Oranges. Maybe that’s a little easier for you to understand than baseball. Fruit! LOL.
You weren’t even born then so you have no idea what people thought back then!
Your fooling no one here but yourself!
If everyone knew what we had then why did we trade away Ryan?
Your just showing your age here fool!
And I’m ignoring you for the rest of the day!
Have fun arguing with yourself!
LOL, I would like nothing more to have been born only recently but unfortunately that’s not the case. Once again, little metsie guesses wrong. I was born well before 1969.
Perhaps I am fooling only myself, but you aren’t fooling anyone here and not even yourself! LOL You know full well what you spew is pure BS.
If everyone knew what we had then why did we trade away Ryan?
Hahahah. Little metsie, we’re talking the 1969 season here. Follow the bouncing ball! I think you’ve been skipping your adderall lately.
Bye bye little metsie. Don’t forget your adderall!
If any GM ever used in-season head-to-head records to determine relative team strength and postseason chances, then he should be fired on the spot.
Yes and any GM who thinks he has a .500 team because of the paper despite it’s .400 Record on grass should BE fired on the spot!
Tell me when the Mets win a WS on paper…..
Then sell tickets to your computer….
>>>Then sell tickets to your computer….
THISSSSS
LOL, again, this isn’t a paper vs. grass argument. It’s a small sample size (you) vs. a larger sample set (me). It’s looking at what’s most important — pitching! And the Cards had the better pitching ON THE GRASS, lol, not just on paper.
It’s so bizarre to think that anyone would use a small sample size of 3 games in-season to determine relative team strength.
No its just the ASUMPTION of an IDIOT over REAL WORLD EVENTS argument…..
Thats all….
If we could bet those teams that you say were better than us then we could beat all those who you think were NOT!
And then what happens to the OVERALL RECORD slappy?
Too bad you gave up on the players that was making it possible!
Kind of like saying your very likely to die by being run over by a train and then walking onto a train track to prove your point!
Nope. You are wrong again. Mine are the real world results. Yours are the ones on paper in fact. Because you are using a non-sensical 3-game sample size to imagine an outcome that doesn’t make sense.
I live in the real world and little Metsie lives in a hallucinatory haze.
If we could bet those teams that you say were better than us then we could beat all those who you think were NOT!
LOLOLOLOL … now who’s living on paper, LMFAO! On real grass, little metsie, the Mets did not beat those who were thought to be worse than them. That’s the problem with your warped little thinking, You have to take all the results as they are. Not as you imagine them on your TP.
Too bad you continue to live in a delusional world, little metsie. Kind of like you saying you are an emperor but you have no clothes.
Wrong because you evaluating a team without Beltran and K-Rod and saying the results with out them are he same as it would be WITH them!
You playng FANTASY baseball and I am using REAL WORLD DATA of the team as it was when you gave up and QUIT!
LOSERS QUIT!
You LOSE!
Oh by the way there was a shooting in Cali school the other day….
Would your assault ban have stopped that too?
Wrong again! You’re evaluating a team that HAD Beltran and K-Rod and yet couldn’t make up any significant ground in the wildcard race, had lousy pitching, had a shortstop whose performance had declined, a third basemen fresh off a broken back, an ace pitcher who was still absent, and a first baseman and their big bat out for the season and said their performance will improve in the future — despite all the warts!
You live in a delusional world. Your plans are on TP!
I live in REALITY. You live on TP!
You lost long time ago.
As for any shooting in any school, how is that relevant to the need for stronger gun control and the fact such stronger gun control could have minimized the loss of life in Newtown? And Aurora? And any number of other shootings where similar weapons were used?
You ask illogical irrelevant questions. So typical and expected when little Metsie lives on TP!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Look at you! Dripping wet in desperation….
2 games behind the eventual Wild Card Winner was SIGNIFICANT GROUND they couldn’t make up…..
You really should take a job in Comedy!
Two games behind with three to play against them….
OH MY HOW would they EVER over take that HUGE two games behind with 80 game to go….
Keep showing your insantity please it will make dealing with you easier from now on….
I do suggest you take your head out of Sandy’s A$$ for a few minutes you appear to be suffering from Methane Poisoning….
LMFAO! Look at you — wallowing in your delusion and illogic!
Fact is, they were 7.5 games behind in the WC and in back of FOUR teams at the time. FOUR. Not one but FOUR.
And the Mets were not the Cards who had not won less than 86 games since 2007. They know how to finish a season! But even if it wasn’t going to be the Cards, one of the other teams was likely to finish ahead.
Wow, if the Mets had kept Beltran and K-Rod like little Metsie wanted, the Mets end up out of the running, are faced with a $17 million option for K-Rod they can’t afford, and when Beltran leaves they get no draft picks. Nada. They are thus worse off at the end of the season and in 2012. LOL.
As for getting methane poisoning from putting ones head up an ass, I didn’t know about that as I’ve never been in such a position. But thanks for warning me — you must know from your voluminous first-hand experience!
Make that FIVE teams. They were behind FIVE teams the day of the trade.
Two games behind the Cards who WON the Wildcard….
Take the medication before you start crying to the doctor again…
7.5 games behind in the WC with 4 teams to pass at the time. You really have to be a moron not to understand this.
Too bad there isn’t any medication to help your problem. It appears to be chronic.
No it takes a MORON to miss the fact the Cards wee 5.5 games back at the very same time and they eventually won the WC!
It takes a pure imbecile to not be able to understand that 7.5 games back in the WC with FOUR freakin’ teams to climb over is pretty poor odds for a team with the holes the Mets had.
Only an mbecile thinks 2 games with haf a season to go is significant ground to make up!
Your just showing your own stupidity by insisting Sandy calculated or that there was a HUGE difference between 5.5 games back and 7.5 games back….
So much the notion of an imbecile and nut job that it’s not even worth responding to anymore because Crazy will ALWAYS be crazy!
And you are certifiable there Loony!
Nite Nite!
LMFAO. You really are empty headed. Can’t even do basic math. It’s not two games back. It’s 7.5 games back from the leader and there are FOUR teams to jump over you moron.
And you’re damn right he calculated the odds, something your simple mind can’t grasp as stats just confuse you. The odds of overcoming those 4 teams were not good.
You really are a piece of work. A 12-year-old juvenile child who can’t get facts or numbers straight and lies all the time.
Grow up metsie. Maybe one day you can begin to earn some respect when you start to act like an intelligent adult. That’ll be the day!
Yes, me thinks if the cardinals traded pujols and their closer, they probably dont come back to win the wild card.
But the calculation that Sandy made was that if every team stayed the same until the end of season, then the Mets chances were poor because they were 7.5 games back and there were 4 teams ahead of them. That calculation was correct unless one is delusional.
Sandy made no calculation at all….
He just did what he came to do… get rid of his high salary players for kids!
Damn right he made a calculation. Instead of hallucinating and making up unrealistic scenarios in his head like you do, he actually put common sense and statistical analysis into the equation and realized the best option would be to trade.
Hi Metro,
Again, the question has to be about competitive integrity. As previously mentioned, the team was playing excellent ball for over a half-season, not beating themselves, taking advantage of other clubs mistakes, never considering themselves out of game by showing the ability to come back in the late innings, players picking up each other and – of course – playing with unbridled confidence in themselves and they were holding their own against the better teams in the league (perhaps the point Metsie was trying to make). Those are qualities that the numbers don’t show.
This is what the numbers showed this year for Baltimore: 82-80. They would have had their best season in a long time in 2012 though they were not a post-season team.
That is, according to the pythagorean winning percentage developed by Bill James. Pythagorean winning percentage is another advanced statistic to show how teams were a bit lucky or unlucky. Guess the Orioles were very lucky to have won those eleven more games.
This is what the actual numbers showed for the Mets on July 29, 2011. They were 6-1/2 games out and only six in the loss column with four teams ahead of them (Milwaukee was leading the NL central division and did not count). With about a third of the season left there was ample time to make up that gap. We often see other teams overcome bigger deficits with much less time (remember 2007?).
They got themselves into that position with the contributions of their top hitter and closer.
As we know, the Mets went 6 and 6 after KRod left and 3-0 after Beltran departed with him (9-6 combined) but without them the team could not sustain that pace. From that point until the injuries to Murphy and Reyes on August 8, they went 1 and 6. How much of that was due to no longer having their top power hitter and closer? And how much more of that was due to to the emotional affect of the front office – their own bosses – showing they had no appreciation of what they had accomplished and no confidence in them being able to continue it? It’s one things with fans, but it’s another thing with a general manager conveying the message “you are not the Cards who know how to finish a season or one of the other teams was more likely to finish ahead.”
Is that any better than Alec Baldwin telling his people they were “losers” in the classic “Glengarry GlenRoss”?
If Murphy wasn’t out for the season and Reyes not hampered by injuries in the second half and we still had KRod and Beltran we might have still finished with just 77 wins. But Terry Collins and his players had earned the chance to try and go all the way no matter what the doubters thought how the team would actually finish.
The Mets are being run with that type of attitude. I can imagine what Oakland would have done if Billy Beane conveyed to them “you are not the Rangers who know how to finish a season or the Angels or White Sox who was more likely to finish ahead.” based on Oakland’s own record since 2006 which was much worse than those of the Mets?
2011 74 88 .457
2010 81 81 .500
2009 75 87 .463
2008 75 86 .466
2007 76 86 .469
Joey, no one is arguing that the team didn’t play well at the start of the season. The point is at the time the Beltran trade was made on 7/26, the Mets were 7.5 games back in the WC with four teams to jump over. FOUR. And 7.5 games back. That’s a lot to overcome for a team with a history of weak second half showings. But more important:
1) The Mets pitching at the time was inferior to most others in the WC race. And pitching is the name of the game.
2) Ike was out the entire year. They had expected him to come back, but it wasn’t happening.
3) Santana wasn’t coming back as was originally expected.
4) Reyes had just come back from an injury and his performance had declined. He only put a .691 OPS from the time he returned from that first injury to the time he went on the DL for the second time.
5) Wright had just come back from a broken back and his durability for the rest of the season was questionable.
It was just too many flaws and holes on the team to continue hoping for fool’s gold. In the meantime, Alderson was able to jettison a terrible 17 million option on K-Rod and turn Beltran into an elite pitching prospect. Given the low chances of competing for a postseason berth, he had to do it.
Also, no one is arguing that the team took a nosedive once the trades were made and then they lost Murphy. But that was the risk they had to take. It doesn’t matter since chances are they would not have made the postseason anyway. So it doesn’t matter if you end up 4 games out or 9 or 10.
The Mets have been run like this because of Madoff and the mess Omar left the club in. It takes time for Sandy to get out from under those albatross contracts. And he can’t spend his way out due to the poor financial situation with the club. But there is light at the end of the tunnel…
Be patient. It’s turning around very soon, if not the start of the 2013 season.
Hi Metro,
Again, the difference is the point of competitive integrity which is being ignored.
In baseball, the logic in numbers, historical information, player profiles, etc., can be thrown out the window for no matter how big a business the sport has become, when it comes to between the lines, baseball is still only a game. Unlike any other team sport, we have seen with baseball that the logical choices to win quite often do not. Football and basketball depend so much upon strength and height that there is little room for season-long upsets. Hockey is the same – strength on ice skates. No other sport but baseball allows a powerful Ken Harrelson (“the hawk”) and a short and non-muscle Bud Harrelson (“the mini-Hawk”) to compete on the same playing field.
The only logic Sandy was concerned about was with the team’s ledger books and nothing more. As he said, if he could not get the type of prospects he was seeking, he would have then accepted monetary considerations instead.
Now for some facts.
I brought up Billy Beane for a specific reason. Oakland too is strapped for cash and has always been on a perpetual re-building plan. The prior five seasons they had been worse than the Mets.
Going into their 80th game of the season, Oakland was 37-42, five games below .500 and 13 games out of the division.
And even in the wild card hunt, there were seven teams in front of them and they were 6-1/2 games behind the leader, with seven in the loss column. Again, they were a team five games below .500 at the time.
It would have been the logical thing, even during the period that followed with Oakland getting itself up to .500, for a team building for the future to trade one’s productive veterans to help with the rebuilding movement. That’s what Sandy did.
With pitching always in demand there would have been teams willing to trade some prospects to Oakland in exchange for a half season of starter Barto Colon (age 39) and closer Grant Balfour (age 34) who were having great seasons at the time. Same with teams looking for another bat – Coco Crisp was already 32. That’s what Billy didn’t.
Colon, Balfour and Crisp, not having the salary burdens of KRod and Beltran, would have been easier to shop around.
You mentioned:
“You better believe it if Oakland had been 7.5 games out in the WC with FOUR teams to jump over — then he would have traded anyone like K-Rod with an onerous option and Beltran who likely wasn’t coming back. That’s typically what Beane does.”
Nope, with less of a barrier to climb, that’s what Sandy did and Billy didn’t.
The logic and numbers would have told Billy to “sell” even when they started to close in the following weeks. The Mets got rid of KRod at the all-star break. At this year’s all-star break, there were five teams ahead of Oakland. The leader, the Angels were ten games over .500, Oakland had just reached the .500 mark. They were five back in the standings. Was Oakland as good as the Angeles and the others ahead of them on paper? Were they just riding a hot streak for a period of around ten games and would then fall back to the sub-.500 team they had always been?
That’s what Sandy and many here in MMO thought. Billy didn’t.
Competitive integrity, that’s all. Let the players determine if they win or lose – not the front office.
Joey — I understand your point about “competitive integrity” and it’s something I think is important to many teams. Alderson has even talked about this and It’s likely, if not for the ugly ugly option year of K-Rod’s contract, or the ability to parlay an expendable asset (Beltran) into and elite prospect, he might not have made any trades that summer.
As a GM you have to balance short-and-long term goals at the same time. How else could have gotten rid of that ugly 17 million option year? Please, tell me. So once he was going to trade K-Rod, and seeing how there 4 teams ahead of the Mets in the WC and they were 7.5 games back, then he probably thought he might as well trade Beltran as well since he had no plans to bring him back.
Now here’s where your comparison to Oakland and Beane is faulty:
1) At 80 games in, I believe Beane WAS considering selling at that point. That was still early in July, and if they hadn’t improved, he likely would have jettisoned any expendable assets. Your comparison of where Oakland was on July 1st and where the Mets were on July 26th is not valid. And, by the way, at 80 games into the season, the A’s were just 5 games out of the WC, not 6.5.
2) Most of the times, GMs hold off on trading assets right until the deadline to see if their team will improve or hold on. That’s exactly what Sandy did. For weeks leading up to the trade deadline, he was waiting and waiting to see if the Mets improved and gained ground. They did not. But Oakland did! That’s the big difference here. On July 26th, the Mets were 7.5 games out and Oakland was now in the WC lead! Again, If the roles were reversed, Sandy would not have sold, but Beane would have. I am sure of that.
So I stand by my statement that Beane would have sold in a NY minute if he found himself 7.5 games out with 4 teams to jump over right before the trade deadline. Not on July 1st. Not on June 1st. But on July 26th!
So, again, your Oakland-Mets comparison was not valid. I understand your desire for competitive integrity but you have to be realistic at the same time and live in the real wold. And, again, I ask you this: would you have just let K-Rod’s 17 million option vest? With the Mets in the bad financial shape they were in?
Joey, a few words about K-Rod … he was traded on July 13, and at that time, the Mets were 7.5 games out and had FIVE teams to jump over in the WC race.
Moreover, Alderson had to JUMP at that chance to unload that contract because (a) it was hard enough getting someone to take K-Rod and (b) Milwaukee was supposed to be on K-Rod’s no-trade list but his Kinzer, his agent, forgot to submit the list. Remember? So Alderson was afraid Boras, K-Rod’s new agent, would raise a stink. So he worked as quickly as possible to complete the deal before it became widely known about Kinzer’s slip-up.
Again, I ask anyone who is complaining about the trade if they would simply have let that ugly 17 million option year vest.
And Joey, not sure what your point about Beane is. On July 26th of this year Oakland was TIED for the WC LEAD! There were no teams to jump ahead of. No ground to make up! So why would anyone be traded from a team like that?
You better believe it if Oakland had been 7.5 games out in the WC with FOUR teams to jump over — then he would have traded anyone like K-Rod with an onerous option and Beltran who likely wasn’t coming back. That’s typically what Beane does.
Hi Metro,
I am talking about intent and purpose and nothing more. Discussions pertaining to mid-season trades begin way before that time and often agreements are reached in late June and early July. Citing that date and the standings ignores how Oakland appeared in the standings of just two or three weeks before as I just provided and that trades (like with K-Rod) are made earlier as well.
Sandy traded KRod at the all-star break. If a good offer for Beltran came up in early to mid- July, would Sandy have gambled on getting a better one a few weeks later not knowing if the offer would still be on the table?
What is missing from all that you say, Metro, is the competitive spirit. If Sandy had it, he would not have made the moves he did prior to and up to that date in 2011. Logic and statistical analysis with no competitive spirit is what we see with the Mets organization today. If that is how one enjoys being a fan, then that is no problem. For others, it is the fact that it will never allow us a chance to be the 2012 A’s and Orioles and all those other teams that logic said no to – including the 1969 Mets.
Joey, we are posting at the same time ;and so are missing each other! I addressed many of these points in my reply to you above.
“Logic and statistical analysis with no competitive spirit is what we see with the Mets organization today. ”
You were right, except you have to remove the word logic from that statement
Hi Metro,
I did ask this question of others. When the Mets were playing that exciting brand of baseball in 2011 was there not a hope that they could really accomplish something? Did not one sense that with the players and the fans in the ball park? Didn’t a lot of fans suggest we keep Beltran – and even KRod after he agreed to get rid of that $17 million bonus?
Isn’t that what baseball is all about – hope? For logic, I can stick with my diversions. And for the baseball business person, making money by selling that hope and diversion is good business as well. Better than what the Mets have found themselves in now, economic wise.
Joey, in 2011, up until around the all-star break, I was one of the believers that the Mets could make a run. They were playing great baseball and it was fun to watch. And it’s important for players’ psyches not to give up.
However, a lot of things slowly changed my mind, most of which I mentioned already in this thread:
1) Inferior Mets pitching. Pitching is important to making any postseason run, and the Mets were weak there.
2) Injuries. Ike was slowly healing and likely wouldn’t come back. Reyes just got hurt and when he came back wasn’t the same. And Wright just had a broken back.
3) No Santana. Remember he was supposed to come back in 2011, but it became clear it wasn’t happening.
So I began to realize the Mets remained a longshot, and getting rid of that 17 million option year was worth it, as was getting back an elite prospect in Wheeler.
BTW, it was unclear if K-Rod would really have agreed to get rid of that option year. He never said anything about it at the time of the trade talks. His agent his Boras. And many speculated that in return for getting rid of the 17 million option, the Mets would have had to extend K-Rod. Not a good idea. So you can’t just say he would have gotten rid of it. Not really true.
“BTW, it was unclear if K-Rod would really have agreed to get rid of that option year. He never said anything about it at the time of the trade talks. His agent his Boras. And many speculated that in return for getting rid of the 17 million option, the Mets would have had to extend K-Rod. Not a good idea. So you can’t just say he would have gotten rid of it. Not really true.”
Except Terry Collins snitched and said ( after the trade ) that K-Rod in June said he wanted out of the option year. K-Rod wanted to test the market. Why would he want to stay stuck here on a bad franchise with poor defense, no chance to make the playoffs and poor finances?
I guess Terry kept it a secret …but decided to tell us after the trade…which to me…sounds like an indirect jab at ownership
Terry wants to win as bad any other manager and trading Beltran and K-Rod probably got to him too
Link? Support your claim that TC said that. I’m not saying it did happen or didn’t happen but you’re really poor with facts so I don’t trust anything you write. You don’t even know the difference between attendance rankings and payroll rankings! Yet you argue a point based on your erroneous reading of it. Amazing!
“There were a couple of nights he was unhappy he didn’t get in a game he thought he should have gotten in. We had him warming up and we made the deal in spring training that when he got ready, once he got warmed up, I was going to put him in…I kind of used five and under as a rule. If it’s five runs I’m putting him in. One night we got up six and he didn’t get in and he came in that night and said, ‘How do we get rid of this [option]?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, that’s not my territory.’”
~ Terry Collins August 19th, 2011
On METSBLOG no less
Just as I thought, nothing official, just a casual off-the-cuff remark to his manager which means literally nothing. Nothing is official unless K-Rod or his agent says something directly to the GM or one of his assistants.
Moreover, after K-Rod said that to TC, he changed agents to Boras of all people. You better believe that Boras was not going to let the Mets off the hook without some big monetary tradeoff. If you believe otherwise, well then I have this bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Fact remains that technically and legally, the threat of the option vesting remained and was the primary reason Alderson made that particular trade. The fact that the Mets paid all of K-Rod’s 2011 salary is proof of that. Because if Boras had come to Alderson and agreed to simply dispense with the vesting option, then Sandy would have just done that.
Another point — I don’t think the players union would have allowed K-Rod and the Mets to simply drop the vesting option. They usually raise a stink when the dollar value of any existing contract is lowered.
Do you write this baloney yourself sandy or does Jay do the dirty work for you. You are pathetic metro sandy.
Do you ever add anything of value to a discussion or do you just like to go around throwing out personal insults?
Excuse me for a second. Buddy wants a biscuit and even when he’s just barking he says more of value than you ever do!
I see you found new people to play your little games with….
Good for you it’s good to get out and amongst people instead of sitting in front of your spreadsheet watching Baseball….
LOL
LOL, metsie, who’s finding whom? Who’s following whom? Take that adderall, little metsie!
valuable to a discussion?
Like Omar’s personal connection with Beltran?
something you literally pulled out of your ass and into a spreadsheet ?
OK !
It’s speculation based on facts and common sense. Which is a lot more than what you base your delusions on!
Metro12 – facts like Omar was Director of Professional Scouting for Both American and Latin American prospects. Meaning the same principles applied to Beltran apply to every single “hot prospect” drafted or signed in the 5 years Omar held that position.
You might as well have said Omar and Carlos were connected by their shared existence on the planet earth during the year 1995
Your theory is looser than Anna Benson in a Pittsburgh parking lot
As GM Omar personally scouted top prospects prior to the draft. So when he held an even lower position as head of scouting for the Rangers, it wouldn’t be unusual at all that he would do the same thing for a top 5 LA draftee-eligible prospect. In fact, I’d be surprised if he didn’t.
Common sense, something you completely lack.
“Support your claim that TC said that.”
ok so u wanted a claim that TC said that….mission accomplished…
and when u get it…its not enough….now its not official unless K-Rod or his agent tells Sandy…and not only does it…but does it PUBLICLY !
LMAO ok
“Moreover, after K-Rod said that to TC, he changed agents to Boras of all people. You better believe that Boras was not going to let the Mets off the hook without some big monetary tradeoff.”
Yes, because Boras would get 0 dollars if that option vested.
Boras had 3 choices as to what to do with K-Rod
1 – negotiate a long term deal with the mets
2 – negotiate a buyout of the option with the mets, allow his client to test the market
3 – nothing and get no money
In your demented world, Scott Boras would choose option 1. Something he rarely if EVER does
Dude, continue this insane position and you are a pathetic joke at this point
Puhleeze. You’ve got to be kidding me if you say K-Rod’s remark to his manager (not the GM) that he wanted to get rid of the option, before he switched to Boras, would have constituted official expression of intent. That’s totally inane. No player negotiates through a manager. Lordy, damaja. You are really out in left field on this.
Boras had 3 choices as to what to do with K-Rod … In your demented world, Scott Boras would choose option 1. Something he rarely if EVER does
Stop presuming to know what I would say. I guess that;s the only way you can make your view look halfway intelligent — to falsely make up what someone else thinks! Because, NO, I think Boras would have been happy with either 1 or 2. He makes money either way. But he makes NO money if Alderson trades K-Rod to the Brewers.
And NONE of those options was acceptable to the Mets, each one representing a higher dollar liability than if they simply traded him to the Brewers.
You are the pathetic joke, damaja. A pretty sad one with a huge chip on your shoulder at that!
Puhleeze. You’ve got to be kidding me if you say K-Rod’s remark to his manager (not the GM) that he wanted to get rid of the option, before he switched to Boras, would have constituted official expression of intent. That’s totally inane. No player negotiates through a manager. Lordy, damaja. You are really out in left field on this.
LOL – So i guess Sandy was going to tell you that K-Rod wanted to negotiate a buyout …and totally make HIMSELF look retarded for NOT doing it !
Boras had 3 choices as to what to do with K-Rod … In your demented world, Scott Boras would choose option 1. Something he rarely if EVER does
Stop presuming to know what I would say. ====> “You better believe that Boras was not going to let the Mets off the hook without some big monetary tradeoff.”
I am presuming you wrote that….and presuming you know that a buyout on contract #1 does not go to the agent from contract #2.
I guess that;s the only way you can make your view look halfway intelligent — to falsely make up what someone else thinks! Because, NO, I think Boras would have been happy with either 1 or 2. He makes money either way.
Uhhhh well he doesnt make money off the mets in option 2, only option 1
But he makes NO money if Alderson trades K-Rod to the Brewers.
>And NONE of those options was acceptable to the Mets, each one representing a higher dollar >liability than if they simply traded him to the Brewers.
But they paid the rest of his salary for the year AND they paid for his buyout anyway !!!
“The Brewers look like the bigger winner for now, though, as they badly needed bullpen depth in the tight NL Central and did just that by acquiring Rodriguez plus cash ($5 million, which covers about half K-Rod’s remaining 2011 salary and the buyout for 2012 on the vesting option, which is $17.5 million for next year if he finishes 55 games this season).”
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/13/mets.brewers.trade.francisco.rodriguez/index.html#ixzz2HoWEBE6I
and to make it EVEN worse, K-Rod’s comment came after the mets were beating up on Detroit and he didnt come in..that was BEFORE Boras even signed on as his agent…
>You are the pathetic joke, damaja. A pretty sad one with a huge chip on your shoulder at that!
My chip is letting idiots like you run around with met hats spreading misinformation and lies.
You just get off on sticking ur fingers in ur ears, closing ur eyes and believing whatever bag of BS you need to.
LOL, nope. Just show proof that K-Rod FORMALLY requested of the front office a waiver of his option year without any financial compensation. You just can’t make things up like you always try to do.
I am presuming you wrote that….and presuming you know that a buyout on contract #1 does not go to the agent from contract #2.
Any change to a contract that represented additional monies, would go to the agent that negotiated that change. So, any additional money that went to K-Rod due to a change in the contract made AFTER K-Rod retained Boras would go to Boras.
So, yes, Boras makes money with either option 1 or option 2.
But they paid the rest of his salary for the year AND they paid for his buyout anyway !!!
No, you are wrong once again, damaja. Including the remainder of the 2011 salary plus the buyout, that came to roughly $8.5 million (5 mill + 3.5 mill). The Mets sent over $5.9 million. It did not cover the entire buyout, just 1 million of it. So, assuming no change to the contract, and the option would have vested had K-Rod not been traded, the Mets saved $16.5 million (the 2012 salary).
Now, if K-Rod stayed and they negotiated a settlement to waive the option, how much more of the existing buyout in the current contract do you think Boras is going to ask for? It’s anyone’s guess but I’d say $3 million EXTRA at a minimum (new 6.5 mill total buyout). Let’s assume that’s what they did. Well then the cost to the Mets from the point in the season they had traded him to the end is about $11.5 million (5 mill remaining salary PLUS the new 6.5 million buyout). $11.5 million vs. the $5.9 million they sent over to the Brewers? Of course they saved money with the trade. As for Boras, he gets a cut of the $3 million added to the original contract.
As I mentioned, I don’t even know if they would have been able to dispense with the option that way because the players union always balks at money given up. Since K-Rod was on track to have his option vest, waiving the option year represented a loss in money and the union might have put a halt to it.
Link to K-Rod’s contract & the money sent over by the Mets: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/free-agent-pitchers/
You’re the one spreading lies and misinformation. Your latest is in the post I am replying to. You incorrectly said the Mets sent over the entire remaining salary and the buyout, They did jot. You lose again.
Metro12 – “Including the remainder of the 2011 salary plus the buyout,”
everyone agrees with me except you
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/29199/k-rod-trade-leaves-void
“The Mets will get two players to be named later, typically minor leaguers, and oftentimes not very prominent ones. The Mets are eating money in the deal. The Post reports that sum is $5 million. That would go toward K-Rod’s $3.5 million buyout, which is owed if his contract does not vest, plus part of his $11.5 million salary for this season.”
So basically, the brewers got 5 mil, which covered part of his 2011 salary and ALL of the 2012 buyout !!!
either way, we PAID 5 mil to get out of a contract b/c we were scared of a 17 mil option that K-Rod and his agent never wanted to see get vested !
and his agent had every reason on earth to either negotiate another deal or let his client test the market…
the brewers paid an additional 500K so K-Rod can waive the option
The union has no problem with K-Rod if he is going to test the market and try for a bigger deal
and after K-Rod got traded…exactly how did our bullpen perform ?
as a matter of fact…just to show how much of a failure Sandy is…
look at the top 10 days of attendance at Citifield in 2011
67 94 Sunday, Jul 17 34,695 -
68 9 Sunday, Apr 10 35,157 -
69 96 Tuesday, Jul 19 35,448 +
70 32 Friday, May 6 35,948 ++
71 72 Sunday, Jun 19 36,213 -
72 73 Tuesday, Jun 21 37,019 –
73 92 Friday, Jul 15 37,304 —
74 98 Thursday, Jul 21 37,416 -
75 74 Wednesday, Jun 22 38,813 +
76 116 Wednesday, Aug 10 39,589 -
77 7 Friday, Apr 8 41,075 —
78 93 Saturday, Jul 16 41,166 +
79 84 Sunday, Jul 3 41,513 +
80 82 Friday, Jul 1 42,020 –
81 83 Saturday, Jul 2 42,042
10 out of the top 15 days of attendance for the mets were in June/July right…
it dropped dramatically after the mets fell out of the pennant race..
Dropping K-Rod was the first domino…
Trading Beltran was the 2nd domino
Losing Murphy for the season was the 3rd domino
By then…Reyes’s batting title chase became the 2011 version of RA DIckey’s Cy Young chase in 2012
aka the only reason to come see the team
No. damaja, you are really dense. There were 2.5 months left on the season when K-Rod was traded. That brings his prorated 2011 salary to 4.8 million for that remainder of the season. The Mets paid the Brewers 5.9 million. So that covers the remainder of the 2011 season PLUS 1 million of the buyout. But the Brewers had to handle the rest. I gave you the link above to prove it, but I’ll give it to you again:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/free-agent-pitchers/
The Mets saved 16.5 million by trading K-Rod.
Again, there is no way either Kinzer, Boras or the players union will let K-Rod drop that option without any additional compensation. So whether they drop the option and add on additional money to the original buyout amount … OR they negotiate a new extension, it’s going to cost the Mets extra money they don’t want to pay. Why can’t you understand that?
It’s not true that the union would have no trouble with K-Rod dropping the option without added compensation. They also step in the way if a player gives up money.
LMFAO … there you go off on another tangent re: attendance and citifield. I’m not interested. Stick to the topic. You need adderrall as well.
and the payroll rankings were exactly as I stated. Sandy had a middle-of the pack payroll ranked 5th and 6th in those years he was winning.
Billy Beane was dead last or close to it and won 4 straight division titles. thats moneyball
I trust Omar’s hunches more than Sandy’s computers
But that’s not what I am talking about. You were arguing that Joey’s post which supposedly pointed out payroll rankings was correct. Even when told it didn’t, you continued to argue it did. Even joey later admitted he was mistaken. But by then you had already argued that the erroneous numbers (ranks) in Joey’s post were correct.
It doesn’t matter what Beane did. He is not relevant to Sandy and the current Mets. Your continuing to bring Beane up shows your continual attempts at diversion and obfuscation.
Fine, you trust Omar’s hunches all you want. He is no longer here. And I believe most Mets fans are happy about that.
It pointed out payroll estimates, i knew what it said the entire time. I also KNEW what the payroll rankings were and posted them for your pathetic self. And even then YOU STILL continue to think Sandy won those rings using MoneyBall.
A concept that even he in his own words said he would not use here.
This isnt moneyball from the late 90′s.
This is Sandyball from the mid-90′s
the 2 things are different and Sandy’s late 80′s credibility is null and void. We have NO reason to believe in Sandy.
Hell I would have more faith in Omar Minaya returning as GM with the wilpons hunched over his shoulder
We all knew that page had payroll estimates. But that’s not what we were looking for and that’s not what Joey represented was on that page. And you blindly went along with him. You only posted the payroll rankings yourself about a day later to try to save face, after Joey admitted his mistake and it was pointed out to you a gazillion times that there were NO payroll RANKINGS on the page Joey posted.
I never said what type of “ball” Sandy used to win those titles and you know it. I just said Sandy was the father of moneyball and schooled Beane in it. And he did. I was right. You were wrong.
And, I’ll repeat again what type of ball Sandy has been using the last two years — MADOFFBALL. And it isn’t by choice.
You continue to slobber all you want at the alter of Omar, your almighty god. That’s your personal choice. Most Mets fans say “good riddance” to Omar.
LMAO
what Sandy did from 1995-1997 is the SAME thing he is doing from 2010-now
LOWERING PAYROLL…
except the only difference between here and oakland is the wilpons need to keep david wright and short term attendance ( which affects Sandy’s ability to COMPLETELY rebuild )
I wont put a disastrous decision like that on Sandy…esp since he has enough goof ups and mistakes on his own as it is
and me slobbering over Omar?
I think he is a better GM than Sandy.
At this point, i dont even think that is saying much !!!
Sandy is coming up pretty short in a room full of midgets !
LMAO indeed. WTF does a 2-year span in Sandy’s career nearly 20 years ago have to do with today? Relevancy? The only thing that the two periods have in common is that ownership told Sandy to lower payroll in both instances. So lower it he did. What’s your point?
And, no, the Wilpons never told Sandy to completely rebuild. Are you out of your mind? Why would they do that? They just told him to lower the payroll.
And, yes, you slobber over Omar like a little puppy. You are obsessed and infatuated with him. He’s gone. Get over it. Everyone knows you like him better than Sandy. So what? If you think you’re going to convince anyone, you’re lost. Most Mets fans are glad Omar is no longer GM. Good riddance! Hey, but keep talking to yourself if it makes you feel happy!
So You are cool with Sandy not rebuilding nor trying to win. Just doing a half-ass job at one and a sucky job at the other .
And this is the guy u said is better than Omar
then u wonder why folks go off on u here
I am cool with Sandy cutting payroll as mandated by the owners and then re-tooling as necessary. It’s not his fault he had to cut payroll. If Omar had stayed the team would be in worse shape.
You and metsie seem to be the only ones who “go off” (go ballistic) on me here but then that’s expected given the obvious short tempers and childish personalities both of you have. That’s your problem. Do what you want. If you want to act like an adult, good. If you want to act like a baby, that’s OK too.
In case you haven’t figured it out yet JDD….
Metro is playing the “LALALAALALAAA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” game…
It’s pretty much all he has….
Your facts can never be facts you proof can NEVER be proof he doesn’t accept anything but what his warped little fantasy mind has invented and refuses to listen to anyone who doesn’t suffer from the same Sandy Methane Poisoning he suffers from….
Ignore him!
You are amusing. No one is more screwed up with facts than you are metro sandy since you revise every fact to twist your hapless defense of your failed reign in Queens. But keep up the lies. It will keep you from making any moves. Since you never improve the team when you wake.
Buddy just told me he’s smarter than you!
So you can speak with dogs as well?
Nah no need for a straight jacket for you….
I’m fluent in many languages … something you wouldn’t understand since you can barely handle one — English!
Well Sandy speaks English well and still sucks as a GM
I guess speaking English well isnt the end all and be all some people make it out to be !
We always knew speaking English well had no bearing on how good a GM was. There have been lousy English-speaking GMs for eons. What we also know now is that speaking Spanish well certainly has no bearing on being a good GM either! That’s for sure!
“I’m fluent in many languages”
You certainly speak Jibberish better than anyone else on this site I can vouch for that!
Since I’m “writing” in this forum and not “speaking” no wonder you’re hearing jibberish! LOL
Don’t forget your adderrall, metsie.
Well we all know you been writing Jibberish for weeks now and you would not be able to write it unless you also spoke it….
Not sure of this drug you keep mentioning…Never heard of it but I will assume since you know it’s name it is part of the treatment for your brain affliction….
I think it’s also time to have your diaper changed the smell is so bad it’s coming in over TCP/IP
Ahhh good old metsie. Always good for personal insults, juvenile and childish behavior, and weak toilet jokes.
Of course you don’t remember the name of your medication. That’s because you’ve skipped it too often you’re so confused!
As for my jibberish, it’s way more intelligent and understandable than your feeble attempts at English will ever be!
Yawn…Children can be so tiring….
And Cranky when thier diaper is full….
Well then go to your mommy, metsie, and ask her to change yours. You don’t have to sit in your own stinky mess all night. Get yourself cleaned up!
Hi Metro,
I also remember reading reports that KRod waived that $17 million bonus clause in lieu of a longer term contract which would have netted him more over time (or something to that effect). Not going to take the time to research it for exact facts but there was something going on, either with the Mets or the team he was about to be traded to.
Hi Joey, there were a lot of rumors in the media at the time, but it was never reported that K-Rod ever officially requested that his option year be waived without any compensating renumeration. For someone to suggest that the off-the-cuff comment to a manager while entering a dugout constituted official expression of intent is totally disingenuous.
This is important. Some who suggest otherwise are just whacked.
And, yes, I do remember that there was some discussion regarding a waiver but there would then have to be monetary compensation. And his agent was Boras. Since Boras stood to take a cut from any additional deal made, how much do you think he’s going to ask for?
Bottom line is that there was no way a deal could be worked out with Boras in which the Mets; liability wasn’t much higher than it was by simply trading K-Rod to the Brewers. Alderson took the path in which the Mets saved the most money, They viewed K-Rod’s contract as a burden and this was the least costly way to get rid of it.
“For someone to suggest that the off-the-cuff comment to a manager while entering a dugout constituted official expression of intent is totally disingenuous.”
Yup, Im sure its totally misleading to think K-Rod wanted out of the option by referring to his manager quoting him !
LMFAO. If a player wants their contract changed, they don’t go to the manager. They go to the GM. What kind of a lunatic are you? No one goes to the manager. That was just a casual remark k-rod made.
And no, it’s not a lunatic idea to think K-Rod at one point may have wanted out of the option year, but it’s a lunatic idea to think that (1) he would formally request that through the manager and (2) his agent would allow that to happen without a hefty monetary compensation.
‘his agent would allow that to happen without a hefty monetary compensation.”
his agent at the time he told Terry was NOT Scott Boras. Scott picked up K-Rod as a client a few days before he was traded.
K-Rod made that comment a month before
I didn’t say his agent at the time was Boras. What makes you think his agent at the time would allow K-Rod to drop the option without any additional financial compensation?
And, again, as I said, the union likely would not have allowed it.
the union can not infringe on a players rights to do what THEY want. that option was a PLAYER OPTION, K-Rod could’ve declined it at any time.
and that “hefty” compensation was 500K
2011
an agent typically gets a 10-15% cut.
so basically Boras got around 50K for K-Rod negotiating that contract
Boras earned more money sending Pelfrey to that psychologist on his staff
sorry….but considering k-rod wanted to test the market more than stay here…we started waving the white flag for the 2011 season on july 13th
and exactly where did that extra money saved on k-rod go to in 2012 ?
hell we were better off letting the option vest and then trading him…paying a portion of his salary to another team that needed a closer and didnt want to commit to a long term contract
we probably get a BETTER prospect back in return !
but hey sandy is all about doing a half-ass job with everything
Then what do you call it when the union told A-Roid he couldn’t accept the lower compensation deal from the Red Sox.
As for K-Rod, what you fail to realize is that the Brewers had all the leverage with him, but the Mets had NONE. There’s a big difference there. Huge.
So sorry, since the Mets had no leverage regarding the option year, there is no way they agree to waive it without greater monetary compensation.
And it’s inane to suggest letting the 17.5 option vest. They’d have to eat at least half of it to trade him to another team. The chances of getting anything other than a B prospect back would be small. $9 million for a B prospect is not a good move.
Then what do you call it when the union told A-Roid he couldn’t accept the lower compensation deal from the Red Sox.
A-Rod wasnt declining a PLAYER OPTION, he was taking less money on a guarenteed contract!
Chipper Jones when retooling his contract took a PAYCUT ( like A-Rod wanted to )
the only difference is that Chipper did it in exchange for executing 2 team options at the end.
Had A-Rod had 2 team options at the end of his deal, the sox could’ve used those as leverage to get him to lower salary in 2003-2004 ( when they were also paying pedro top money )
As for K-Rod, what you fail to realize is that the Brewers had all the leverage with him, but the Mets had NONE.
I already explained to u how the mets actually had some leverage in that K-Rod’s new agent would have likely wanted a long term deal with the mets, but if that wasnt possible, would want one with another team
With Boras here option 3 ( do nothing ) was NEVER going to happen
try again, but this time with more feeling
A-Roid wanted to restructure so that the overall value of his contract would be lower. That’s against the CBA. K-Rod would have been doing the same thing in the Mets situation, especially since he was well on pace to exceed the number of appearances in the option.
The union might have stepped in an nixed such a waiver in the Mets case. The reason they allowed it to go forth in the case of the Brewers is because they could legitimately keep K-Rod from closing and so they had the leverage. Therefore once traded to the Brewers K-Rod’s option would not going to vest. And the Brewers did end up adding in an extra 500,000 plus the mutual option.
As for Chipper, you are missing the fact that the overall value of his contract did not decline. The automatic exercising of those 2 option years represented greater value to the contract than the paycut for that one year.
I already explained to u how the mets actually had some leverage in that K-Rod’s new agent would have likely wanted a long term deal with the mets, but if that wasnt possible, would want one with another team
LOL, that is NOT leverage. K-Rod and his agent had the leverage at that point. The only leverage the Mets had at that point was to trade him, and they only had that due to Kinzer’s mistake.
I would ask you to try again but that is pretty pointless with you.
“A-Roid wanted to restructure so that the overall value of his contract would be lower. That’s against the CBA. K-Rod would have been doing the same thing in the Mets situation, ”
No, K-Rod’s guaranteed contract ( the part that the union gets more involved ) was never going to be lowered.
If the team is doing something in bad faith ( sitting K-Rod in save situations ), the union gets involved.
If a player wants to test the market, he has every right to rip up a player option.
Just like Rafael Soriano did this year
try again, but with more feeling
The union will get involved in a vesting option if most of it has been earned up to that point. And it was in K-Rod’s case.
And here’s the problem with your thinking. Boras might have wanted K-Rod to go to free agency. But apparently K-Rod is more concerned about guaranteed money. So he would not have given up that vesting option, most of which was earned at the time.
As proof, he settled for $8 million the next year from the Brewers even though he had the chance to be a free agent. He did it against Boras’ wishes. So there was no way K-Rod gives up that 17.5 million option from the Mets unless he gets a hefty compensation for doing so.
Try again .. if you can.
Ah typical sandy worshiper. A person attacks his brain dead sandy love bull, and metro responds talking about what he knows best. Insults about poop. Why does metro know so much about poop? Because he is sandys toilet cleaner. Wow. What a career for the brain dead metro. Metro you make Jess sad because you sandy more than Jess does
Actually 51s, if you had taken the time to read more carefully you’d see very clearly it is the other side who is first resorting to incredibly juvenile personal insults and lame jokes about “:shit.” Just like you’ve done in this very thread. Guess you do what you know best and are incapable of adding anything of intelligence and value to a discussion.
“if you had taken the time to read more carefully”
This from a guy who took 4 days to read an article that proved he was full of it…
LMFAO … You mean that so called “Harvard” piece of crap? LOLOLOLOLOL!
It wasn’t worth the TP you write your ideas on!
And here’s the reality — one peep pro-Sandy or against Omar and a few of you get your panties in a bunch. Why? What is it to you that someone else thinks Omar was deeply flawed or that Sandy is the better GM? Why so defensive and insecure?
probably because all the reasons why we were told Sandy would turn around this organization have so far proven to be bullsh*t.
t us
NY – results oriented town.
In terms of public relations, we are actually just as bad as we were under Omar. Sandy was supposed to have folks respecting the met brand
Trashing RA Dickey on his way out –
Trashing Jose Reyes after he left –
Trashing Ike Davis while he is still here –
Trashing other GM’s and their players and even their fans is probably not the classiest way to change public perception,
No player is going to care if the GM and a journalist have beef, they will care if the GM is undermining his own players…in the biggest media circus on earth. Sandy is an exec, and u have to be really media aware in this town. It does appear Sandy was not ready for that as he has put his foot in his mouth more times in 2 seasons than I saw Mr. YaKnowWhatImSayin did in 6
In terms of on the field production, our team has gotten worse since the end of 2010 in almost every aspect. hitting, defense, relief pitching.
playing jordany valdespin all over the place ?
playing duda in RF when LF was available almost the whole year?
not signing a veteran catcher to mentor thole ?
not signing Izzy back to mentor Parnell and the staff?
these are moves that cost little to nothing
the only thing we got better at ( SP ) Sandy had absolutely nothing to do with.
in terms of the draft, we let go of Rudy T, who ran the 2010 draft, Chad McDonald, who ran the 2011 draft and now have JP’s buddy from Toronto, this is ultimately the guy responsible for not picking hawkins, even though Depo said he had his eye on the SS they picked since 2011, not sure what moron decided not to go with hawkins
but in either case, the only thing we def did so far was take a team that was marginally competitive and turn them into a team that is now completely not competitive.
Sandy Alderson came in with alot of fans hopeful. they pointed to his success ( and Beane’s ) in Oakland as the reason why ( i was actually one of those hopeful fools )
the reason folks are acting up now, is because they now see the face behind the mask…and your refusal to acknowledge it just annoys them
thats all
It doesn’t matter what you believe or the propaganda you post. The question is why do you get your panties in a bunch when other people post about the flaws of Omar or that they like Alderson’s current strategy which to some extent has been forced on him by the limited resources?
Why do you feel the need to rush to Omar’s defense every time someone says a bad word about him?
Are you related to Omar in some way or just his lapdog?
Are you related to Sandy in some way or just his Cabana Boy?
Never met the man. But you on the other hand act like you stalk him over the place! So if you’re not related to Omar you are some obsessive pervert!
Hi Metro,
That shows that you and I are looking at the same equation based on our own baseball related opinions – which is great. Sandy was looking to slash payroll the moment he came on board so the things he was concerned about and the things you and I are looking at are two different things.
These moves had everything to do with money and nothing at all related to competitive integrity based on Sandy’s actions from the day he took over and all the statements he made. Two years in a row the team felt betrayed by him (the mood in the clubhouse being they were kicked in the teeth following the season before when it was hard to accept the front office not having faith in them).
I have yet to come across any other team in the type of position that the Mets had been where the towel was thrown in by the front office. This is not to be confused with a Phillie team 12 games below .500 on July 29th of this year while the Mets were playing at .575 clip, on their way up from that miserable 5-14 start. Take that back, I can name one – this year’s Mets when nothing was being done to first get them help at the All-star break and then to reverse their downward slide and keep them in the wildcard hunt.
And remember, Sandy said after that slide this season it was important to remain competitive. The year before when we were in a much better position, he said he needed another two weeks to see what the team was made of before trading Beltran – and according to what Sandy had also said since, that statement was made before Zack Wheeler came into the conversation.
So we are debating – and I’m so glad we are having a friendly disagreement instead of what is going on with others – based on our own baseball instincts. We are not talking in terms of stats other than the standings (and what one forgets is that the Mets had a lot of games left with Atlanta, thus there is something about the point of head to head competition).
My point is that Sandy was looking at his financial instincts. And I think this approach has cost him business more the past two seasons and the one coming up than if he had taken my approach. Don’t know if you recall but many of us were expecting him to do nothing to help the team the first half – and we were right. Wonder how many ticket sales that mindset by the fans kept them away from the turnstiles as well? For many, expecting the team to eventually fail was not due to the best efforts of a questionable GM in Omar, but rather having a Sandy whose best efforts and concern was in dollars and cents,
Hi Joey –
“Sandy was looking to slash payroll the moment he came on board”
This I disagree with, Joey. He had to do it almost from the get go but that was not his intention coming in. In fact he stated at the beginning just how surprised he was to find that there was so little financial flexibility in the current payroll. So he was disappointed in how little money there was to spend. Further, he has stated that he took this job because it was the first time he’d have the opportunity to work with a big budget! So that just shows his expectations coming in were all about spending.
Once he got to the Mets, he quickly discovered the reality of the situation and the soon-to-be lawsuit which further put a stranglehold on the budget.
“These moves had everything to do with money and nothing at all related to competitive integrity based on Sandy’s actions from the day he took over and all the statements he made”
Again I disagree. The K-Rod move, yes it had everything to do with money. Beltran? That had more to do with sinply trying to add an elite prospect to the club by trading an expendable asset. As proof that it wasn’t about the money, Sabean actually preferred to send over money instead of Wheeler, but Alderson prevferred the prospect. If it were just about the money, Alderson would have simply taken the money from Sabean. Also, Sandy believes in competitive integrity. It’s just that it had to take a backseat the last few years due to Madoff, the Mets shaky finances, and the albatross contracts that existed on the payroll when he took over.
I also find it hard to believe that this “throwing in the towel” as you put it is unprecedented. And in the context of the Madoff mess, it was certainly understandable and, to a large degree, necessary.
So we are debating – and I’m so glad we are having a friendly disagreement instead of what is going on with others – based on our own baseball instincts.
Me too. It’s important to keep things civil, but when those two get into the conversation it’s difficult as their fist instinct when they are losing is to start personally insulting the other person. I’m glad you’re not like that and no matter what, you always respect other people.
the Mets had a lot of games left with Atlanta, thus there is something about the point of head to head competition
Sure, you have a point. But it wasn’t just Atlanta the Mets were behind of. It was basically 4-5 teams at that point. Also, the Mets have traditionally had a hard time dealing with the Braves in the second half of the season. Just look what happened to the Mets and Braves this year! Mets handily beat them early, but the Braves dominated in the 2nd half.
As for Sandy’s “financial instincts,” sure he has had to use them. He’s been forced to. And sure, maybe they “hurt” the business more the last two seasons than if he hadn’t traded Beltran and K-Rod. But he likely has more than made up for it by putting the team in better position toi win in the near future. So, IMO, a net gain over doing it your way. That’s just my opinion. We will have to wait to see if Sanday’s plan bears fruit.
I know you’re stuck on the idea that Sandy’s only concern is dollars and cents. I disagree and so we will have to agree to disagree to keep this civil.:)
I believe that Sandy wants to win as much as anyone. It’s just that he’s been FORCED to play MADOFFBALL by the financial situation he ffound himself in when he arrived – and it’s not what he took the job for and it was a surprise for him. I’m sure he’s been disappointed that he hasn’t had a lot of money to work with so far,
**** meant to say for Logic, I can stick with my realities. LOL
Hi all,
Anyone speaking in terms of the 1969 Mets should remember that after they closed to within a few games of Chicago in late July, they stumbled quickly and on August 14th found themselves slipping to third place, ten games behind the Cubs with 49 games left in the season.
I remember Bob Brown, who hosted the pre and post game shows over WJRZ in 1969, saying in late June that fans were getting too caught up with the Mets thinking they had a chance of winning the division pennant. By August 14, they were being written off by most of having returned to earth and setting as a goal of 85 wins or so and that season being a stepping stone for 1970.
They were all wrong, of course.
So on August 14,1969 nobody was comparing the Mets to the Miracle Mets of two months later. What happened next was just too improbable to describe in terms of an emotional roller coaster for those who have only read about. The only thing the City was thinking of was the Mets. The momentum even helped get John Lindsey re-elected.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?year=1969&month=8&day=14&submit=Submit+Date
Hello Joey, there is an important point you bring up there … the Mets were just 5 games from the lead in the NL East on July 27th (a comparable point to when Alderson traded Beltran in 2011). There was just one team ahead of them. So anyone saying the Mets situation in 1969 was similar to 2011 I think is far off.
To sum off, here were really important differences for the 1969 team:
1) Stellar pitching.Truly stellar. Successful late season and postseason runs are built on good pitching. The 69 team had it. The 2011 Mets didn’t
2) Just 5 games back with only 1 team to climb over. In comparison before the trade dealine, the Mets were 7.5 games out with 4 teams to climb over.
3) A very young team with not a lot of fat to trim off that roster. No bad contracts equivalent to K-Rod’s option and no expendable assets equivalent to Beltran that could be parlayed into ELITE prospects.
So, the circumstances were different. It was justifiable for Sandy to trade mid-2011. But not for the Mets to do so mid-1969, right before the trade deadline.
How about the Cardinals ?
I think Albert Pujols would’ve fetched them some prospects in 2011…esp since they were just 2 games ahead of us with 3 other teams in front of them.
O wait…
The Cardinals have a smart GM, I miss the days when we had that ( 2005-2010 )
Apparently you’re not paying attention to this thread (what else is new?) and are just posting to “hear:” yourself whine. Because I already explained in this thread why the Cardinals in 2011 were different from the Mets that year. I am not going to repeat it. Go find it.
Hi Metro,
Actually, the only point I was trying to make was not to sell a team short – that’s why the reference to the 1969 Mets – and that the team on August 14,1969 was not viewed the same way as the one which saw Cleon Jones end the season on one knee.
No other purpose – nothing about trades, etc. – just let the players win or lose.
BTW – in 1969, the trade deadline was June 15th so we gave up three promising prospects for Don Clendennon. One of them went on to play 14 more season – Steve Renko – who had not a spectacular career but a long one, playing 12 more seasons than Don did after leaving the Mets (sometimes pitching in bad luck with the expansion Expos).
Just mentioned that as an interesting tidbit.
Gotcha, joey. Good points, especially about the June 15th trade deadline that year. I forgot about that, and that they got Clendenon at that time. He ended up to be a key player for them in 1969. What a great team that was! When I was looking at the individual ERAs for all the pitchers today, I was amazed at how good they all were. Amazing!
Hi Metro,
Forgot to add – had it been YOU who traded KRod and Beltran, I would have felt that the Mets GM simply believed the team was out of it and felt it be advantageous to get some young talent in return. Would have disagreed with you when you were taking calls on Francesa’s show (LOL) but that would have been the extent of it.
But it was SANDY who made the trades and I doubt very much it was made for the reasons you would have – that’s the difference. You believe the Mets were shot. To Sandy that question was inconsequential – he was calculating the chances of increased revenue versus decreased spending and which one was less of a gamble.
Had there been no Madoff, there would have been no trades (and Sandy would still be happy doing his work in the Dominican Republic on behalf of major league baseball). Whoever was GM hopefully would not have pulled a Jim Douquette but at the same time, would not have thrown in the towel because that is simply not the way it is done – as said, no general manager in the past had ever made such a decision as Sandy did with his team being in that position – even if they felt success was a long-shot – but then, one has to be understanding that no general manager ever was put in the position Sandy was, being hired after the owners got a reprieve from the commissioner when others would have defaulted on their payments and sold the franchise.
That’s why I say the trades cannot be looked at in terms of baseball. When it comes to competitive sportsmanship, that is simply not done. A general manager with a competitive drive thinks in terms of winning and showing the players they have the backing of the front office. The issue is not that of an overpaid roster until the team is really out of it or the season is over.
Joey — Oh, I wish it had been me to trade Beltran and K-Rod because then I would be GM and making millions annually! I don’t make millions now. : (
Again, joey, I disagree with your view of things. I think it’s possible Sandy could still be GM without Madoff. Because eventually the Mets get into bad shape with Omar and so the Wilpons would have looked to replace him regardless.
And, again, I disagree that the Mets are the only ones to trade two assets at the trade deadline when being 7.5 games out in the WC. I am not going back to look at every club since the WC was implemented but I bet you there are others.
I think the Beltran trade was done because of baseball. But K-Rod and Dickey were done because of Madoff.
” I think it’s possible Sandy could still be GM without Madoff.”
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Well, of course! If not for Madoff he’d have had more money to spend and could have accelerated his plan. Duh!
Hi guys,
Just to settle the issue of KRod, he waived his $17 million bonus clause with Milwaukee for additional compensation in his contract so there would be no issue of him not being able to close games and build up his performance record (didn’t want to use the word “stat” LOL) and look for a better multi-year free agent deal at the end of year.
Probably the same could not have worked out for the Mets because they had nobody else to close and if he suddenly became the set-up man a grievance with the Players Union would have followed. The only way possibly solution would have been the Mets re-signing KRod to a multi-year contract which allowed that $17 million to be deferred.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/15/k-rod-waives-his-giant-option-will-be-a-free-agent-after-the-season/
Right, Joey. He waived the 17 million option for a mutual option and he waived it because the Brewers had leverage (a legit closer already in Axelford).
The issue I had with damaja concerning this is he’s confused as to the money sent over by the Mets and what it was for. Essentially, the Mets sent over $5.9 million when there was 4.8 million in salary remaining to be paid that season PLUS a $3.5 million buyout. So the 5.9 million covers the remaining salary but just $1 million of the original $3.5 million buyout. The Brewers would have had to pay $2 million of the remaining buyout (had they not come to a new agreement with K-Rod).
Actually joey you have it backwards….
He had MORE reason to waive it with us than with the brewers….
You see the ONLY reason to waive it is to be able to be a closer….
Which team had more closer opportunities they could offer him them or us?
You make more money going into FA as a closer than you will as a setup man.
K-Rod wanted to be a closer, We could give him that and he would have to pay a price to get that.
Sandy never bothered to exploit that leverage.
And it should be pointed out that K-Rod fired his GM because he asked him to talk to Sandy and get rid of the option and he played games, He fired him and Sandy traded him soon after after LOOKING at the contract and seeing he had no teams on his No Trade list.
By the time Boras found out he was alreay traded to the Brewers.
Hi Metro,
Then our friendly disagreement is with how much Sandy was aware of what he was getting into. Others have suggested he had a specific vision of how to shape the team and then found out that couldn’t be the case once he was hired.
Unless we put Sandy to a lie-detector (so to trust, but verify) we can only speculate as to how much he was or wasn’t aware of but I’ll state again some valid observations that can connect all the dots.
We know from his own statements that he was not interested in the job but was urged by the Commissioner to consider it. Selig admits he pressed Sandy too. Selig is also privy to the confidential financial situation of all franchises.
Sandy is an astute legal mind and business person. He would be able to read between the lines of what he sees reported in the financial newspapers and recognize the severity of the situation on his own. He would also want to know why he was now being pushed so hard into a job he wasn’t interested in and being asked to givie up on a job he was very happy with. He would know he was being pressured for a reason beyond it just being a good career opportunity.
And as a lawyer and it being disclosed that the Mets had profited off of Madoff and the civil suit process had begun in the Fall of 2009, Sandy and the Wilpons both had to anticipate the Mets would eventually be dragged into it.
I don’t think Sandy had to sell the Mets on his qualifications – his reputation in the business was well known and respected. However, one has to be told by his perspective employers of the severity of the fiscal situation because if nothing more, the employers need to know in advance the general steps he would take to fix it – that is, of course, presuming that the Wilpons had a choice and were not obligated to hire him (and if Sandy was being forced on them, he would again want to know the full reasons why). No, the Mets had to level with him in advance for their own benefit (if Selig and the Wilpons blind-sighted Sandy, I would think Sandy with have smashed them all in the face for being so deceitful
).
Also, three months into the job Sandy was already telling reporters in a spring training interview that the Madoff situation had no effect on his decision making. Now, if he wasn’t fully aware of the situation when he took over, he sure did by that time. After the season he had no hesitation telling Fox Business News that the team had lost $70 million on top of the Madoff losses so no team in that situation could be expected to go after or re-sign (Reyes) expensive free agents. So as I’ve pointed out in the past, there is a problem with Sandy’s integrity with the public – by making that admission about Madoff on Fox he contradicted his earlier statement.
So Metro, looking at the series of events as they happened and appreciating that Sandy, as a lawyer and business executive, would not allow himself to go into this situation blindly – and with his 40 years of education and experience he would be able to recognize if people (Selig and the Wilpons) were not being candid with him for he too can connect the dots and know when something is being held back.
Interested to hear your counter-points as to Sandy not being aware of the situation either because he did not attempt to find out on his own or that Selig and the Wilpons were not being straight with him. I just don’t see it happening with all that was already known by one so successful on the executive level already. They know how to play hardball.
Hey Joey, didn’t we already go over most of this already?
I know you have your theories. But for the most part they are just theories. And I would connect the dots differently myself. Also, let me take a few issues with some points:
1) When Sandy accepted the job, the “severity of the situation” had not yet come to fruition. Remember, the Madoff lawsuit had yet to be even filed. And it was the lawsuit which has been the main cause of a lot of the financial pressures over the last few years — apart from the initial $500 million loss. Also, since the Mets had been such big net losers with their Madoff accounts, there was no reason to think there would be a clawback suit, especially one of a billion dollars.
2) It’s not true Sandy was “pressured” to take the job. Selig merely “urged” him to take the job. Big difference. He was not forced on the Wilpons. Supposedly he and Josh Byrnes were the two finalists.
3) Sandy came with his own high qualifications. His background both as a team executive in SD and Oakland plus in MLB assured the Wilpons they were getting someone well versed in all aspects of running a team. They merely had to ask him for his vision of how he would fix the Mets and build a club for long-term success (likely standard questions in all GM interviews).
4) The Wilpons needn’t have told Sandy the full details of either the current Madoff situation as it stood at that point in time, or their financial situation regarding the entire Sterling Enterprises. He was taking a job with the Mets. Not Sterling. Not SNY. They only owed him the standard information any team would tell a GM about its finances and nothing more.
5) I strongly disagree with your point about Sandy’s statements in spring training and then much later after the season. First, wasn’t his statement in spring training directly related to his ability to resign Reyes? Second, don’t you think that 7 months later after further losses from low attendance as well as further pressures from the lawsuit, that the Wilpons might have tightened the purse strings? So the financial situation had changed. Moreover, we know that at one point during the 2011 season, Sandy had lowered his projected 2012 payroll estimate. When reporters asked him about the decrease, he said when the Wilpons push back, well then he has to change things. So clearly, it was the Wilpons who kept changing the budgetary parameters on Alderson during 2011. Another thing which doesn’t jive with your interpretation — Alderson ultimately made Reyes an offer worth roughly $100 million. So if they couldn’t afford Reyes, he wouldn’t have gone that high,
So you see, Joey, I disagree that all the dots you see even exist. I’m also not going to connect the dots the same way you do. I understand you have this grand theory of Alderson and why he did things. I just don’t agree with your interpretation of things.
So it appears your main theory is that Alderson knew full well the financial situation he was getting into and I believe that is not supported by the facts, and that he instead entered into a rapidly changing financial situation. The Wilpons themselves were not even fully aware of everything that was to unfold after the lawsuit was filed in December 2010 — AFTER Sandy was officially hired.
“Alderson ultimately made Reyes an offer worth roughly $100 million”
JAAJAJAJAJAAJAJAJ
Yup! Absolutely!
Please show one link that says Alderson submitted an offer to Reyes worth roughly 100 million
“He said, ‘I really want to play in Miami as long as you pay me $1 more than anyone else. … I really want to make the most money I can,’” team president David Samson told Miami businessmen during a speech Tuesday, according to Miami Today.
According to the report, Samson also bragged about securing taxpayer dollars to get a new Marlins stadium built.
“I don’t have to hold back now that the stadium is built — not that I ever have,” Samson reportedly said. “We’re not the smartest people in Miami. If you’re in this room, you’re instantly in the top 1 percent.”
As for Reyes, the Mets never made him a formal offer. But, according to sources, they made it clear they were willing to guarantee five years — with the deal ultimately rising in value to six years, $100 million if Reyes could stay healthy and a vesting option kicked in.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/39497/jose-reyes-is-a-ballplayer
Joey, put another way, Sandy took the job fully expecting to be able to spend big bucks almost from the get go. One of the telling things is that when he first came over, he remarked to the media how shocked he was to find out how constricted things were with the payroll due to the all the contracts that weren’t expiring for awhile.
” Sandy took the job fully expecting to be able to spend big bucks almost from the get go.”
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yeah … too bad Sandy didn’t have the riches Omar had to waste almost every winter he was GM! LMFAO!
If the wilpons had the money to spend…Sandy wouldnt be GM !!!
bwahahahahahahah
Yes he would be … and a much happier one at that. I get the feeling he hasn’t been too happy that the budgets have been so small since he’s gotten here.
No because if the Wilpons were not involved in the Madoff lawsuit, Selig doesnt “urge” Sandy to interview or even take the position.
SANDY HIMSELF said he would not be GM if it were not for Selig !!!
bwahahahahahahaha
Wrong again, damaja. There was no Madoff “lawsuit” at the time Sandy took the job.
And even if the Mets had not lost so much money with Madoff, Omar was making a mess of the team. And the team was losing money. So it’s likely the Wilpons go looking for a new GM. I think Selig might have recommended Sandy regardless.
Sandy thought he could spend big bucks huh ?
Discussion: Alderson Just As Funny As Omar, But Without The Bad Grammer
http://www.usenetmessages.com/view.php?c=other&g=5492&id=467207&p=0
“There’s something to be said for shopping at Filene’s Basement. We hope
to be able to shop on all levels, but there’s stuff to be found in the
basement.”
“Alderson also believes “there was a little bit of an overreaction” publicly to his assessment earlier this week that the Mets’ estimated payroll between $145 million and $150 million for 2011 is too high for his liking. While making jokes about “shopping at Filene’s Basement this winter,” the Mets’ GM insisted Tuesday night that his desire to slash payroll is independent of the Wilpons’ financial woes.”
Can you try reading a little more carefully, damaja? I said Sandy thought he would have big bucks to spend when he took the job. NOT after he got to the Mets and was hit with reality.
Those statements were made AFTER he got to the Mets.
and which statements did Sandy make that he thought he could spend “big bucks” when he got here?
what makes u say that he was thinking he could do that ?
Right about the time of his introductory press conference — if not the PC itself — he stated he wouldn’t have taken the job if it weren’t for a big market, big payroll club, He said the opportunity to work with a big payroll team was too good to pass up.
Little did he know that because of the albatross contracts Omar left behind and the Madoff situation, he’d be given only peanuts to spend his first two winters.
Joey, one more thing — and I remember telling you this last time — if the Wilpons merely wanted someone to cut the budget, then there was no need to hire Alderson at all. They could have just retained Omar and dictated to him to trim the payroll. And there was no need to spend extra millions on Depo and Ricciardi. They already had Ricco in place too. So all these facts actually contradict your theory. Especially the hiring of Depo and Ricciardi.
” if the Wilpons merely wanted someone to cut the budget, then there was no need to hire Alderson at all”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Because Bud Selig had nothing to do with this !
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-mlb-commissioner-bud-selig-urged-mets-general-manager-job-article-1.134680
Huh? Of course Selig recommended Sandy to the Wllpons and “urged” Sandy to take the job. The point you’re missing (what else is new?) is that Sandy was brought in to clean up Omar’s mess, build a winner, and bring a level of professionalism to the job that Omar lacked.
and the point you are missing is that no team in baseball WITH money will trust Sandy to run their team !
Hell Sandy has no interest in being a GM either !
I mean if Sandy is such a genius, why is it that the Padres facing payroll reductions employed him ( as a COO/President ) …and the Mets facing payroll reductions hired him ( after Selig “urged” him to take the job )
I mean a guy so great i would figure would have teams beating down his door to get him !!!
Wow. Thanks for proving how delusional you are. Sandy has had 3 top posts overseeing a ML team. Omar’s last and only one ended when he left the Mets.
You think your master Omar is going to ever find a top job in baseball again? Something higher than just an assistant? Never. He can’t handle a budget. It’s initial success with Omar because he knows how to spend, but then it’s crash and burn. Because Omar is so near-sighted. Some used to call him Mr. Magoo! LOLOLOLOL!
why is it that the Padres facing payroll reductions employed him ( as a COO/President )
Because the payroll actually went up when Sandy was there? LMFAO
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA indeed!
Try again, damaja!
By ONLY one I guess you think that the Expos were a bar league team….
Your no challenge whatsoever…Just spout and spout and when proof is provided to you make up some NEW lame excuse for dismissing the proof to offset the fact you have NO proof of anything you say and could NEVER because you made it all up!
Sad Sad sack….
JDD and Joey we should just stop giving this guy a forum to get the attention he is obviously not getting at home….
Either that or chip in and get him a wet Nurse to stick something in his pie hole and shut him up!
2006: $ 69,896,642
2007: $ 58,110,567
2008: $ 73,677,616
2009: $ 43,734,200
yup..payroll did not get lowered !
Are you really that stupid, damaja? Alderson started in SD in 2005 and the payroll didn’t go way down until his last year there. It went up right after he was hired! So if he was brought in to cut payroll, why did he wait for 5 years? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
because a team coming off back to back playoff runs always drops payroll …
Sandy came on in the middle of the 2005 season….the padres made the playoffs that year…
than with pretty much the same team….made the playoffs again in 2006…
Sandy DROPPED payroll for the 2007 season…and this is coming off a SURPLUS
then in 2007, the padres missed the playoffs …the owner loosened up the pursestrings to sign Maddux…
in 2008′s offseason, Sandy does what he does best, cuts payroll to 48 mil
offers their top free-agent a low-ball offer…then rescinds he offer !!!
Trevor, insulted, said he would no longer deal with him
http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081110&content_id=3674025&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd
Alderson told a radio station earlier this week that he is willing to meet with Hoffman now, but Hoffman believes Alderson is merely posturing. “It was never their intention to honor [the offer],” said Hoffman. “And they didn’t have the strength to stand up and do that the right way.”
“You don’t really want to deal with people who handle their business that way. … To come home and to hear the comments, and hear how they’re spinning lies to do damage control, I feel like I have to stand up and set the record straight a little bit, and say how things happened.”
Hoffman said he didn’t want to sound as if he was whining, and he said that if the Padres had simply told him directly at season’s end that they didn’t want him back, then he might feel differently. “I would not have liked it, but I don’t think a player can argue with a team’s direction,” he said. “It would have been difficult, but it would have made more sense, in how they handled it.
“I don’t know why they’re spinning it, what they’re trying to protect themselves from.
“When they drag you through the mud, though, it’s just wrong. … Nobody is perfect, but I don’t like to be made out to be a liar.”
It is clear from his voice that he remains angry with Towers, and with Alderson. “But [Alderson] is the CEO. John [Moores] is the owner of the club, and if he didn’t want to see this go on, he needed to step up.”
Lets not forget Wally Joyner and Sandy Alderson trashing him on the radio
http://www.xxsportsradio.com/common/global_audio/40/2410.mp3
Sandy is an absolute failure in public relations, I would rather have Omar and his Hulk Hogan imitating Tony Bernazard than a GM constantly bashing players or throwing them under the bus.
Its unprofessional, no matter how good the grammer is
Now watch Sandy get caught in a lie
around the 12:30 mark he said Grady Fuson was no one of his guys, that Grady was hired before him ( 30 days before him )
Fuson’s background is in scouting. He became an area scout in 1982 with the Athletics after serving as head coach at the University of Puget Sound in Washington, and worked for the A’s for 19 years. Among the scouts he worked with was current Padres scouting director Bill Gayton.
Sandy is a disgusting liar
In other words he is a great lawyer
That works ok in SD…but in NYC…we got alot more folks paying attention..
hell Omar’s grammer was scrutinized
Sandy’s words are too
by everyone except u and the rest of the FIRM
Stick to the topic. You said Sandy was brought in to cut payroll. The payroll numbers for SD during Sandy’s early years there show you are full of it. The payroll actually goes up between 2005 and 2006.
So just because you’re shown to be wrong once again, you spam the thread with endless stuff that has no relevancy to what’s being discussed. LMFAO. You are such a loser, damaja.
Sandy lowered payroll in 3 out of the 5 years he was a GM in SD….and this is during a run of 3 straight years of great attendance
and what did the new owner do as a condition of buying the club?
immediately kick Sandy to the curb !
if Sandy was doing such a great job…please explain why no MLB team wanted him on their team?
Sandy went right back to Bud….who had him in the office for 10 months before he sent him on a rescue mission for the wilpons !
If Sandy was that good, he would have teams batting down his door to employ him.
He’s not
thats why he doesnt
Fool !
The fact is, your contention that SD brought Sandy in to lower payroll falls flat on its face. The payroll went up the first year Sandy was there and then again from 2007 to 2008. You just can’t make things up because it fits your agenda, LOL.
And new owners always like to bring in their own top executives. Nothing unusual when Moorad became owner.
Sandy has had 3 top jobs in MLB (GM or above) and it’s more than Omar will ever have. And one of Omar’s GM jobs was given to him because no one else wanted it! He got it by default.
If you look up the word “fool” in the dictionary there is a picture of damaja!
The payroll didn’t go up because of Sandy….
It went up due to contractual obligations from before he got there and Arbitration…
You wish to prove otherwise then go ahead and name the free Agent that accounts for the increase.
LMAO
“And one of Omar’s GM jobs was given to him because no one else wanted it!”
and Omar did a better job with Montreal facing contraction on a shoe string budget than Sandy did in 1994-1997 with Oakland and with the mets in 2011-2012
Selig put Omar in Montreal and Sandy in NY
with even less money to spend, guess which one did better !
Omar did a lousy job in Montreal, making one of the worst trades in ML history and destroying the Expos farm system. Just ask expos fans how much Omar destroyed their team.He was despised by their fans.
And, duh, if you want to cut payroll, you can TRADE arb-eligible players. The fact is, Sandy was not brought in to SD to cut payroll. It’s just a story some of you made up to fit your agenda.
yes he did so poor in Montreal that Fred Wilpon begged him to be the Met GM in 2003 ( Omar REJECTED HIM )…than again in 2004
Sandy did so great in Oakland that he had to wait 8 years to get another gig !!!
Omar – immediately hired by the 3rd highest valued franchise in baseball
Sandy – a pariah who cant get another gig unless the team needs an attorney !
Yeah cause just about any INSANE person knows how awful it is to take a 67win team and turning it into a 83 game winner when compared to a guy who took a 79 game winner and turned it into a 74 game winner
AND
Not even CLOSE to the GENIUS who also turned a 103 game winning team into a 68 game winner in three short years
THEN
Turned a 82 game winner into a 63 game winner in yet another THREE YEARS!
Nope How the hell can Omar be THAT good ever!
ROFLMMFAO!
I should go back to the win prediction thread and pick 65….Cause we are in year three here…
And the Genius who a$$ your head is stuck up usually hits bottom in year three…
LMFAO … damaja leaves out critical info again. Omar only “rejected” the offer the first time because Fred wanted him to share GM duties with Duquette, hahahah! LMFAO! He was never offered the sole GM job the first time. That’s how much Fred trusted Omar! And Fred would have been better off never going back to Omar. He should have trusted his initial instincts that Omar stunk at the administrative side of things. But unfortunately for him, he went back to Omar and the rest is a sad history.
Omar will never get another top job in baseball (GM or above)
Bank on it!
Hey JDD….
Notice how he claims his GENIUS who took a 103 game winner and turned it into a 68 Game winner is an employable genius
But Omar who took a 67 win team and made it an 83 game winner in two did a horrible job….
Even when he took a 71 Win team, made it a 97 win team and playoff contender in two offseasons…
This is the type of guy we are dealing with here….
‘You think your master Omar is going to ever find a top job in baseball again?”
Not only did he get a top job…but as soon as he was canned in NYC, he had several GM’s begging for him to work for him…among them SANDY ALDERSON !!!!
If Omar was so bad, why would your lord and master beg him to stay ???
Alderson said earlier this week he planned to meet with Minaya after the New Year.
Alderson was recently asked if he had a role in mind for Minaya.
“Well, I’d like to hear from him first,” Alderson said. “But, to reiterate, he and I have been friends for a long time. I have great respect for him as a baseball person. There’s always room for somebody with his capabilities.”
Omar had offers from Boston ( theo ), Toronto ( AA ), Arizona ( Towers ), San Diego ( Byrnes ), Cleveland among others…
Omar = wanted by other GM’s
Sandy-Depo-JP = wanted by each other
LMFAO — Top Job = GM or above.
Omar will never get a top job anymore. The only reason Alderson asked him to come back to work for the Mets was as a courtesy. He was ALREADY being paid by the Mets anyway!
You can deceive yourself to make youself think other teams wanted to hire Omar in a top position but that is just delusional. He will always be just an ass’t GM or have a scouting position at most.
Give him a wallet and he’ll blow it up in no time. No one will ever trust him with the purse strings again.
“Omar will never get a top job anymore.”
Why would he as he already HAS one!
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ny-mets-gm-omar-minaya-hired-san-diego-padres-undisclosed-front-office-position-article-1.985872
Showed to be a fool again by your making crap up that isn’t true….
You should just stop already because you have yet to state a fact that wasn’t written by Hans Christian Anderson, Doctor Seuss or the Brothers Grimm.
LOL … Josh Byrnes is his boss. Are you really so clueless?
Thanks for proving just how clueless about baseball you are, and how you can’t read.
Josh Bynes is the GM. Omar is his assistant and in a top scouting position. But Byrnes is his boss. Wow. You’d be well-served to try to read the material you link to before making such a fool of yourself so often. You made similar mistakes with that “FBI” report and that “Harvard” propaganda piece!
Still “Senior Vice President of Baseball Operations”
Metro12- Omar will never get a top job anymore.”
Metro12 – ” and in a top scouting position.”
I guess a scouting position isnt a job !!!
Omar is donating his time and services to fix the mess Sandy and Depo left as a courtesy to MLB !!!
LMFAO, he reports to Byrnes, who is the GM. Get a clue, metsie. You proved your own self wrong and now you won’t even admit it. Too rich!
Again damaja … Top job = GM or above.
That’s something Omar will never have again. No one will trust him with the wallet again.
Too bad for you!
Metro12- Omar will never get a top job anymore.”
Metro12 – ” and in a top scouting position.”
I guess a scouting position isnt a job !!!
Top job = GM or above
Director of Scouting = position
position = a job
Metro12 – ” and in a TOP scouting position.”
You contradict yourself once again grasshopper
Top job = GM or above
You’re a real hoot, little metsie.
You keep complaining that I make no sense yet you can’t stop reading my posts!
You keep saying you’re done with this thread yet you keep coming back!
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hysterical!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep because at some point JoeD will close down the comments and I will stop having my Inbox filled with tripe like Omar only GMed one team the mets when the entire planet knows he also was the GM for Montreal….
THATS the drivel we are forced to suffer through!
Awww poor little metsie. Says she is going to bed, then keeps posting. Says she is done for the day. Then comes back in no time. Says I have nothing of value to say, but she can’t stop reading my posts. LOLOLOL!!!!!!!
And, yes, I was incorrect. I forgot about the Montreal job that no one else wanted. But at least I admit I was wrong. Something you and damaja can’t do despite being wrong almost ALL the time!
I went to bed HOURS ago you cretin!
You were talking to yourself most of the night!
Whining like a baby in his crib that dropped his bottle over the side!
By the way we just showed you the fool again….
Omar DID get a job above GM!
LOL, I’m not talking about last night, you moron.
It was during the other night. You laughingly said you were going to bed but instead come back here. What a complete putz you are!
What was Omar’s job above the GM level?
Admit it….You don’t even know what the hell your talking about it’s just one involutary puke with drug references and feeble attempts to make up stories that have been proved FANTASY via link and facts….
Go HOME and lick your wounds, practice debating with your pet hamster and come back when you might be able to make a case that can stick.
LMFAO, even now you can’t stay away. You and damaja have been beaten to the ground, chewed up and spit out.
You’ve been caught in so many errors — like your ludicrous claim that Omar had a job above GM in SD. And LOL, you are the one who links to an article proving you are wrong. You can’t make this up!
Hey, if you want to keep coming back to get yourself smashed to the ground time after time, fine,. I’m having fun!
Metro12 errors ?
like when u said Omar was only a GM once ? and completely forgot that the Montreal Expos played in 2002-2003 ?
Oh, I admitted that was an error and I was wrong. But that pales in comparison to the numerous errors you make all the time. Like giving wrong information for how much the Mets paid the Brewers in K-Rod’s trade. Like saying McGwire admitted to juicing in ’89 when he did no such thing. Like hilariously saying Sandy was brought to SD to cut the budget, yet the payroll rose as soon as Sandy got there! Like saying Reyes wasn’t injured in 2011 until after the trade deadline! Like saying there were payroll RANKINGS on a page that didn’t have any!!! LMFAO. Only you and metsie are so lost.
You both need adderrall.
Wow, 560 comments? I love reading comments as much as the next guy, but don’t you think this has surpassed the point of redundancy like 200 comments ago? Just saying….
Well if you combine all the comments where Metro triple commented in a row and counted them as just one post the number would drop to only 400 and something! LOL
Hey if you counted all the posts were metsie said nothing of value or nothing new you could reduce the number by maybe 200 or so!
Joe D – The only good thing about this thread going absolutely nuts and way off topic is that now a certain somebody can not say their post had the most comments ever on MMO.
Even though, 10 quality comments are better than 500 comments that say the same thing only with more exclamation points…. anyway.
Hi Joe D.,
Have we broken the record yet?
Hi Metro,
The Wipons were denying the severity of the situation ever since the Madofff scandal made news. For the average fan, that first year it didn’t appear serious until the second one, when glaring holes that needed to be addressed were filled with the likes of Jacobs, Matthews and Barrahas – Sandy type players – and why the less expensive Jason Bay instead of the more expensive starting pitcher – Omar’s “plan A” if you recall – and the jokes that he addressed the rotation problem with the journeyman R.A. Dickey.
Now this is the disagreement we have – you summed it up quite nicely your take on it:
“So it appears your main theory is that Alderson knew full well the financial situation he was getting into and I believe that is not supported by the facts, and that he instead entered into a rapidly changing financial situation. The Wilpons themselves were not even fully aware of everything that was to unfold after the lawsuit was filed in December 2010 — AFTER Sandy was officially hired”
WIlpons not yet aware of everything that was to unfold? Metro, I’m sorry but your summary has the facts wrong. They already had to be saved by MLB with that loan they got in November (coincidence that approval came after Sandy was hired ) in order to avoid bankruptcy.
When pressed for further information from the New York TImes, the Mets said:
“We said in October that we expected to have a short-term liquidity issue. To address this, we did receive a loan from Major League Baseball in November. Beyond that, we will not discuss the matter any further.”
How much more aware does one have to be when if MLB didn’t come to the rescue it would have meant filing for bankruptcy?
Now to believe Sandy didn’t know this going in? Being urged by the Commissioner to leave a job he was very happy with in order to seek out the Mets GM position do you honestly believe he wouldn’t have demanded to be apprised of the full facts beforehand and thus that information was purposely withheld from him by Selig, Wilpon and Katz? And then the first day on the job he suddenly found out his new bosses were one step away from bankruptcy? That’s not how it is done.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/sports/baseball/26mets.html?_r=0
Hi Joey, I’m going to take a break from the little kiddies spamming this thread and reply to you. Thank the lord there is another adult in here right now besides me.
Ok, now for the Wilpons — I’m going to take issue with your opinion regardingtheir knowledge of the financial situation in this sense — the situation, while not rosy in the beginning (Dec ’08 to the time Sandy was hired) was not as bad as it later became. Up to that point Omar had had the biggest budgets in the NL. How can a fan take issue with their spending when no one else was spending more? It was Omar’s gross mismanagement of the budget that made the payroll inflexible. For example, if he didn’t waste so much money on Castillo and Ollie, then there might have been more money for other acquisitions,
As for Bay, hindsight is 20-20. While a few preferred Holliday, most fans were OK with the Bay signing, And Lackey, the pitcher most wanted Omar to sign at the time, turned out to be a disaster for the Red Sox. So what pitcher are you talking about?
As for the financial situation, I’m talking more about the lawsuit. That’s the thing more than anything else that put a financial stranglehold on the franchise for longest time up until recently. Only with the settlement and the sale of the minority shares has the pressure started to alleviate.
But the lawsuit was not filed until after Sandy was hired. So at the time they were interviewing Sandy, there was no lawsuit.
And bankruptcy was never a real threat. The owners always had the option to put a portion of the team up for sale to meet short term cash flow issues, if needed. You’ve been reading too much of Megdal lately!
Back to Sandy. I’m not too sure he was all that happy with his DR assignment. It was just a job, taken at the request of Selig. And Selig did not know a lawsuit would be coming in December of 2010. So while the Mets were under financial pressures, no one knew at the time Sandy took the job just how much more dicey things would become once the lawsuit was filed.
I believe Sandy was asked about Madoff and the Mets finances when he first came aboard. His answer was something to the effect that yes, he was aware of Madoff and the situation but not in any great detail. This was right after he was hired. So he wasn’t aware of the extent of the financial difficulties nor, like everyone else, how the eventual lawsuit would further add financial pressures.
And, again, this idea that the Mets were one step away from bankruptcy is ludicrous (except if you’re Megdal!).
Sandy accepted the job with the Mets knowing of Madoff and financial pressures in general. But with the lawsuit yet to be filed, and the loan from MLB yet to be made, he had no clue how serious the financial situation was to become in the ensuing months.
Hi Metro,
But you’re not accounting for the Wilpons knowing they facing bankruptcy in October of 2010.
And also how could the Wilpons not think it was only a matter of time before they were hit with that civil suit? It had been going on for a year already and what would make them believe they would not be pursued to return hundreds of millions in profits made off Madoff (hate that pun) while other corporations were? Even without being brought up on charges of financial negligence as co-conspirators those returns amounted to hundreds of millions just in themselves.
And even more, how could an esteemed lawyer like Sandy not see that coming?
I’m not making assumptions based on hypothesis but rather conclusions in terms of sense and sensibility based on the facts as they were known.
Joey D … do you know how ludcrous that sounds? What you are saying is that $25 million stood in the way of the Wilpons and bankruptcy. For a franchise worth at least $800 million at the time. For the owners of 65% of SNY? For the primary owners of Sterling Enterprises probably worth a few billion?
But don’t ask me. Ask Joe D. He’s the smartest and most objective one I’ve seen anywhere when it comes to the Mets finances. eMail him. He’ll tell you that in October 2010, the Mets were NOT on the verge of bankruptcy. Financial pressures? Yes. But bankruptcy? No.
And, no, the suit had not been going on for a year when Alderson came aboard. It was only filed months later. The reason the Wilpons likely felt they wouldn’t be sued is because they were net losers and had lost a total of 500 million. So they probably felt, if anything, they would get money back! Also, traditional bankruptcy and compensation for investors had actually been on the Wilpons side. The bankruptcy judge and Picard applied a novel reading of the laws in oder to clawback in the first place. This interpretation itself was on appeal at the time Sandy came aboard.
Joey, one more thing regarding the lawsuit. ‘There is absolutely no way someone on the outside like Sandy could foresee a lawsuit based on any widely known facts at the time. Clawback lawsuits regarding bankruptcies and security fraud are some of the most complex areas of the law. Likely even the wilpons couldn’t wrap their heads around it, but left it totally to their legal firm to handle everything.
Moreover, relevant securities and bankruptcy law was unsettled in this area. Even those on the inside like Picard and the ‘Wilpons lawyers were on unchartered ground. So Sandy would have no clue whatsoever what the chances of a lawsuit were. It;s an area of the law left to specialists.
Regarding Oakland last season, came across a fan’s take on Oakland in mid July, citing that the A’s should also be sellers since their chances of making the playoffs were slim.
Of course, this is a fan’s opinion, not that of a sports writer or club executive. But Just showing that fan negativity isn’t regulated to just the Mets and neither is the rationality of being sellers to build for the future even though his or her team has been playing well.
In the position the Mets were in, one should listen to the opinion of the manager and coaches when weighing in the possibilities of dumping the season for the chance of obtaining of a prospect, no matter how highly rated – unless, of course, they are scrapped for cash. Yes, we know publicly how much Terry said he had faith in the team and didn’t want to lose those players, but I would love for somebody to dig up information on what he told Sandy privately about the team in 2011 and what moves should be made to go forward.
If HE voiced the same opinion as his players (even Gil Hodges privately didn’t believe the Mets were serious contenders until late August but didn’t convey that message to his players) then there will be less of an argument from us on this side of the fence. But if the whole team – from the manager and coaches on down – felt they really had a shot, then what Sandy did was disgraceful from at least the competitive integrity point of view.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oakland-sellers-2012-trade-deadline-fans-opinion-223100590–mlb.html
Joey, the managers, coaches and players always want to keep fighting at full strength till the end. If nothing else, the manager’s rep rests on the number of wins. So he wants to win as much as possible. But that’s why they don’t run the club. If they did the team would then likely have to file for bankruptcy, lol.
It’s Sandy’s job to make the tough decisions. And he did just that in mid-2011. I think he made the right choice.
Hi Metro,
No. In any business when a boss asks those under him or her for an honest assessment of the situation, they are not going to give that person the song and dance. I’ve been put in that position often and had to level with my bosses that what I saw going on was not good.
It applies to sports as well. TC needs Sandy to know he is on the level with him – it’s his job. And if you and others can come to the conclusion that the Mets in 2011 were out of it, so could have Terry. A manager has to be above the song and dance when it comes to his owners when it comes to trading players.
Joey, please don’t put words into my mouth or otherwise exaggerate my position. I never said the Mets at the trade deadline in 2011 were “out of it” or anything close to that, but rather that it was a long shot for them.
And, sure, TC may have been a little more honest with Sandy behind closed doors but we’ll never know. TC is a very rah-rah type of guy too. So it’s just as likely he told Sandy that he wanted to fight on.
I would think TC told Sandy the same things I told you — that while the team has a long shot, there were a lot of holes too. Ike missing. Johan missing. Reyes not playing at the same level. Wright also hurt. And poor pitching.
METRO12 – Joey, please don’t put words into my mouth
You still have space for words when Sandy’s balls take up all that space ?
You need to get up off your knees servicing Omar long enough to look around and see what’s really going on. Looking at Omar’s front side so often won’t tell you much.
**** meant if “HE HADN’T” voiced the same opinion as his players…..
Sorry for the typo, otherwise, it’s a contradiction of statement. LOL
We’re at the 600 mark. Don’t think any of us want to be the one to submit reply number 666.
Metro12 – Now listen to Sandy cry about getting fired from the new owner !
Sandy Alderson…an exec so great that the new owners saw absolutely no value in keeping him on in any capacity !!!
http://www.gaslampball.com/2009/2/5/750701/alderson-didn-t-resign-he
Relevancy?
Hi Just,
“This shouldn’t be interpreted as a resignation, I’m essentially being displaced”
That is INDEED very interesting. It has always been the consensus writing that Sandy left San Diego to join the Commissioner on his own accord, not that he was being dismissed.
That makes me wonder if I’ve been giving too much credit to Sandy the business person or that those in San Diego were just wrong to let him go.
I always just assumed that when the new owner was brought in — Moorad — that he would want his own people. Especially those at the very top. And Sandy was technically above Towers. And so that’s why Sandy left. Happens all the time with the very top people.
“And so that’s why Sandy left”
you mean thats why Sandy got canned
and after getting fired, Sandy got 0 offers from any other team in need of his services.
Unlike Omar …
LOL, he left. Get out your dictionary, damaja.
Whether he was fired or resigned, he left.
Omar will never again get a top job in baseball (GM or above).
Sandy did.
‘Deal with it!
Sandy had to wait over 12 years to get another gig in baseball ….
and coincidentally, it started when the owner was having legal issues…then marital issues, which led to the divorce and sale of the club.
those marital issues started in 2004 when his wife Becky found out he was sleeping with the gynocologist
====================
Now Becky Moores has filed court papers saying that John Moores has had an extramarital affair with a gynecologist since 2004 and is still living with her in Texas.
A former local gynecologist “has shared and continues to share a lengthy, personal and romantic relationship with (Padres owner) John Moores,” according to a court filing by the attorney for Moores’ wife, Becky.
====================
Moore knew his wife was going to come after the team and made sure had the best lawyer in baseball to help him out
If I need a lawyer, I call Sandy
If i need a baseball guy, I call Omar
case closed
Omar left the Expos in a mess.
He left the Mets in a mess.
He will never get a top job in MLB again (GM or above).
Case closed!
Omar inherited a team that was in contraction
Omar had 2 pennant chases with those 2 teams
u would be doing backflips if Sandy could do that with this team !
The Expos weren’t in official contraction at the time. They were just in-between owners. Omar was given the job by default because no one else wanted it. He had a decent budget and then proceeded to detroy their farm system which is typical Omar.
Sandy has already achieved more with his top jobs in Oakland and SD than Omar ever will. Omar could never see the big picture …. Mr. Magoo!
“The Expos weren’t in official contraction at the time. They were just in-between owners. ”
2002 –
NEW YORK (AP) — baseball management told the players’ association that Montreal and Minnesota were the only teams under consideration for elimination before opening day.
Owners voted on Nov. 6 to eliminate two teams but did not identify them, and contraction has been on hold since Nov. 16, when a Minnesota judge issued an injunction that forces the Twins to honor their 2002 lease at the Metrodome.
Management negotiators Rob Manfred and Paul Beeston told the players’ association last week that if owners succeeded in their plan to eliminate teams for this season, the Twins and Expos were the only candidates
——-
Yup….the expos werent facing contraction, they were “just in between owners”
here is the full story on Omar and Montreal
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20030401/25319.html
Despite a team payroll of just $39 million, the Expos finished in second place with a winning record (the 2002 Braves had a payroll of $93 million; the last-place METS, $95 million). “Omar’s been put to the test,” says Tal Smith, a former GM who’s now president of the Houston Astros. “It was a great educational process for him: franchise in distress, 29 owners, an uncertain future, a lot of last-minute decisions. That’s a lot for anybody to go up against. In the end, he showed he had very fine executive and administrative skills. He’ll be a success with a big-market team someday, watch and see.”
The 2002 season ended with the expos playing well, leaving reason to believe that the team might contend again in 2003. Better yet, Major League Baseball, as part of a new labor agreement that averted a strike last season, committed itself to keeping the Expos alive and actively looking for real ownership. But then Selig delivered another body blow: Montreal, he announced, would have to cut millions from its payroll for 2003. Arguably, Minaya had done too good of a job with the Expos; the other 29 owners weren’t going to subsidize a contender — one of the dangers of being owned by your competitors.
Yup, Omar did a horrible job !!!
Thanks for confirming I was right. They were NOT in official contraction. Facing contraction and being in contraction are two different things.
In 2002, the Expos finished 12.5 games out of the WC and 19 games out of the division lead. And it only took the destruction of their farm system to achieve those lofty heights LOL! Facing contraction and a long shot postseason run are not good enough reasons to destroy a farm system. It’s typical Omar. He neglected the farm system when he was with the mets and he did the same with the Expos.
He did a horrible job. Which is why Fred initially didn’t trust him to be sole GM of the Mets and only offered him a co-GM job. Too bad for Mets fans Fred went back to Omar a year later and the rest is a sad sad history.
Yes, because Fred only seeks out co-gm positions for guys who do “horrible” jobs !
than Omar’s 2003 was so terrible, Fred upped the ante and gave him the job completely…
even when Sandy Alderson, the great sabermetric wizard was available !!!
that makes sense !!!
We all know that the inability to hire good baseball people is one of Fred Wilpon’s biggest faults. The fact that he hired Omar is proof of that!!!!!
In order for the Wilpons to finally hire a solid baseball GM, it took the intervention of Selig.
That’s what makes perfect sense.
And Sandy will never get a job unless the team is in financial trouble !!!
its either that or learning Spanish so he can work in Santo Domingo !!!
ahhahahahaahahahhaha
I would assume the creative genius Sandy Alderson would have talent appreciated by everyone in the league….
guess we’ll have to wait til someone is getting sued to find out !
Hi Metro and Metsie,
To me, you are both good guys so why not treat each other in the same kind way you both have been treating me? If nothing more, I think all those on MMO who are insulting one another places the rest of us in an uncomfortable position of often agreeing with different points raised by both parties and not wanting to feel as if we are taking sides on personal battles.
That’s why I like you both and hope to keep the disagreements to friendly and clever witisisims rather than name calling.
You are taking that $25 million out of context. It was that it had reached the point that the Mets had no more money to pay that $25 million on top of what they already owed.
Debt restructuring is a process that allows a private or public company – or a sovereign entity – facing cash flow problems and financial distress, to reduce and renegotiate its delinquent debts in order to improve or restore liquidity and rehabilitate so that it can continue its operations.
That is what Sandy with the help of CRT Deloitte did. But in order to do that, they needed that $25 million on top of another $40 million bridge loan.
Bankruptcy is a legal status of a person or organization that cannot repay the debts it owes to creditors.
So when one cannot meet payments, cannot get any more credit and has surpassed MLB’s own policy for debt limits, how does that not spell out anything other than bankruptcy?
And as far as anticipating being named in the civil suit, we are not talking amount – just the reality that it was going to happen. And Sandy would know that the Mets were not going to be sued for just petty cash.
No one could have anticipated Madoff being a fraud. But the Wilpons could not be successful business people if they then could not anticipate the tremendous financial calamity ahead of them. And Sandy would not be an astute lawyer and business executive if he could not vision this not happening to the Mets as well.
Good question – how could one can assess the personnel of team he inherits and conclude what is necessary is a complete “re-building” and develop a long-term vision on how to achieve it when at the same time one cannot assess the financial problems of the corporation and not envision what could very well happen to it long-term as well? You see, even junior stock brokers assess what could be the future earnings or losses of a public stock before they recommend buying or selling it.
And I think Sandy is a bit more than a junior stock broker.
Sandy cannot be the innocent victim by inferring he was unaware of things beforehand – not to mention that the Wilpons themselves were that way too. The reference about it just being a matter of $25 million and that the Mets weren’t sued until December ignores all business sense.
I think you are not giving Sandy all the credit he deserves for being a top executive and lawyer by not saying he had the foresight to understand the very serious nature of the situation beforehand and being unable to anticipate what could be heading down the road. As I said, even a young junior stock broker could do that.
Even more important, I hope you, Metsie, Just and others try to get along better with each other for you’ve all been nice to me as we differ on things.
Joey — Good advice, but it’s up to metsie. Seems she can’t have a civil conversation without getting unhinged at some point. She is always the first one to start acting like a child and throwing personal insults around. Granted, I throw it back. Yes, I admit it, I stoop to her level. But she always starts it. And she is obsessed with me. She says she’s going to ignore me but she can’t stop reading my posts and replying!
Now, regarding bankruptcy. Yes, I know what it is. No need to explain it. And no, CRT Deloitte did not come in to do a formal restructuring under bankruptcy. They were brought in as business consultants. That’s it.
I am not going to go into bankruptcy more as Joe D. can answer this more inteligently. He’s the expert on the Mets finances. I suggest you ask him. I believe he will tell you the Mets were not on the brink of bankruptcy in the Fall of 2010. The point is, if the MLB 25 million loan had not been available, there are numerous other ways they could have gotten the money — from selling a part of the Mets to other Sterling assets.
As for the legal action, again, there is no way Alderson could have anticipated an impending lawsuit. The bankruptcy trustee was using a complicated and unprecedented formula to determine who to clawback and who to leave alone. This formula itself was debated and went to the court of appeals because Madoff victims didn’t think it was fair (they still don’t). So how would Sandy know these details. He wouldn’t. When the actual lawsuit came out in December of that year — months after Sandy was hired — it took most everyone by surprise.
Unless one were a bankruptcy lawyer dealing with security fraud and actively practicing at the time, then anticipating such a lawsuit was outside the realm of expertise of almost everyone else — that’s how esoteric that area of the law is.
Good answer — It is not any GM’s job to understand or try to understand the financial underpinnings of a baseball team. That is the area of expertise for guys like David Howard or for potential investors. As far as Sandy is concerned, all he has to know is roughly what type of payroll amounts will he be given each year, as well as how much he can spend on his staff and things like scouting. The Mets being the NL franchise in NY, Sandy rightly believed it would always be a viable operation and so there was no need to have deep worries about the team’s future.
You can continue to insist that Sandy should have known more, but we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.
And I still would like you to answer these questions: If Sandy was brought in solely to cut the payroll, why then didn’t they just stick with Omar and have him do it? Why hire Sandy, plus depo and Ricciardi as well? The cost of bringing Sandy in must have cost around 5-7 million (including depo and ricciardi) annually (just a guess). And they were already paying Omar around 1-2 million. So your hypothesis doesn’t make sense in light of that. They took on a front office costing 7-9 million (including Omar) just to cut the payroll???
Please answer those questions. I’m curious what you will have to say.
Hi Metro,
Was only paraphrasing when saying “out of it”. And by that I meant in the realistic terms as you expressed by comparing them to the other teams involved, the amount of teams they had to jump over, the games already behind, their past history of blowing things in the second half. the injuries, etc. That was what you meant, wasn’t it?
By the way – Metsie is a either a guy or the ugliest female I ever saw (Metsie, think you would agree with me on that one LOL)
Otherwise, if the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Financial Times and others were able to anticipate the severity of the problem down the road based on the information they had at the time, how could Sandy had not? Besides, that Times article written three months later – and thus not being one of the articles I’m referring to from before that time – mentioned that the Mets could not get any further credit – all the other roads had been exhausted – so it was not a matter of just getting a loan.
I think at this point we’ve established that our four eyeball do not see eye to eye on this. We’ll have to leave it up to the jury to decide.
Ciao
Joey, are you being evasive? LOL. You still haven’t answered the question I’ve asked you already 3 times. I’ll repeat:
If Sandy was brought in solely to cut the payroll, why then didn’t they just stick with Omar and have him do it? Why hire Sandy, plus depo and Ricciardi as well? The cost of bringing Sandy in must have cost around 5-7 million (including depo and ricciardi) annually (just a guess). And they were already paying Omar around 1-2 million. So your hypothesis doesn’t make sense in light of that. They took on a front office costing 7-9 million (including Omar) just to cut the payroll???
Please address this. Because quite frankly, it contradicts your entire thesis.
And, again, I’ve never said they were out of it. “Out of it” is like being 15-20 games back at the trade deadline. The Mets in July 2011 were instead a long shot.
And, show me a report at that time (immediately prior to Sandy being hired) which said the Mets were on the “brink” of bankruptcy? I also suggest you email Joe D. and ask him. I think he’ll say while things were dicey, they were not on the brink of bankruptcy.
As for metsie, I could have sworn he was a girl. Not to be sexist, but he is so over-emotional and temperamental it’s hilarious.
But please, just answer that one question I posed at the beginning of this post.
Yup…the wilpons and Sandy had no idea Picard would come after them
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5424674
NEW YORK — New York Mets principal owner Fred Wilpon may face a SECOND wave of losses as the result of Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.
Im sure this all makes sense as to why you thought Sandy came here thinking he would have big bucks to spend !!!
Yup … reading comprehension issues by damaja again. LOL, that is NOT Picard. That is a private lawsuit worth $16 million which is made moot because of SIPIC reimbursement.
I guess you just love to keep making a fool of yourself!
the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Financial Times and others were able to anticipate the severity of the problem down the road based on the information they had at the time, how could Sandy had not?
I guess Sandy doesnt read the newspapers !!!
we all knew the wilpons were headed down shits creek…
you on the other hand said Sandy thought he could spend the big bucks when he got here…
maybe sandy really does think its 1992 and the mets can have the highest payroll in the league!
None of them said prior to Oct 2010 that the Mets were on the verge of bankruptcy. Of course everyone knew the Mets had suffered financial losses due to Madoff but bankruptcy was not in the picture.
And, yes, Sandy expected to be able to spend big bucks when he got to the Mets. And he said he wouldn’t have taken the job had it not been for a big payroll, big market team,.
LOL, when he got to the Mets, he found out he had less to spend than many low-and mid-market teams that winter!
Metro12 – “And he said he wouldn’t have taken the job had it not been for a big payroll, big market team,.”
Metro12 – I also don’t take seriously “GM speak” which are statements made for public consumption and are often purposely vague or misleading in order not to embarrass people or reveal competitive or personal information.
YES Metro12 said both things
YES Metro12 is a village idiot
LMFAO — there goes damaja’s 4th grade reading comprehension skills again!
Now tell us, which of those special circumstances I mentioned in the 2nd statement apply to the first? Too hard? Think, damaja.
Damaja: Lobotomized at birth!
Keep going you guys… You can make it to to 10000 comments!!!!!!!!
Now tell us, which of those special circumstances I mentioned in the 2nd statement apply to the first? Too hard? Think, damaja.
HMMM
lets see…
Sandy in off-season says that he is restricted in how much money he can spend, therefore giving the met fanbase that much more reason to spend their hard-earned cash on over-priced tickets they didnt buy in 2010…
wait…that doesnt work…
Sandy in off-season says that he has no restrictions in how much money he can spend, therefore he will judiciously decide what players are paid by the mets and what players are sent packing. This will be mainly be based on performance among other factors he will not explicitly name.
Yeah I think option #2 ( aka the misleading vague one ) is what he said…
as a matter of fact, this is what he said in every off-season he has been a met GM
he always says he has no payroll restrictions, that he has flexibility to add players…
magically, he has you convinced he is being honest !!!
I hope you dont accept candy from strangers in tinted black vans…but if you do, make sure his name is Sandy
The answer to your question is that because it was Bud Selig’s call not Wilpons.
Also you seem to take things out of context.
Minaya had to make that trade because Selig still needed a buyer and the team was in win now mode and had chance for post season. Colon was leading the AL in wins and ERA at time of trade and was top available pitcher at time. He ended up with 20 win season and was 29 at time.
No different than Braves trading for Tex or Brewers for CC.
Please be objective otherwise you only look as bad as the others you accuse of having an agenda.
KMaxx — So you’re saying Selig told Sandy to go take the Mets job and reduce payroll and then demanded that Sandy hire depo and ricciardi and spend an extra 3-6 million to help him cut payroll? And you ask me to be objective? C’mon. Make some sense.
Sorry, but how is a team with a depleted farm system more attractive to a potential buyer? Colon was going to be a free agent too, so the chances of him signing with the Expos were practically nill. So even if the Expos made the postseason, a buyer would be getting the Expos, without Colon, and with a depleted farm system. Sounds like a poor scenario to me.
The Braves had a deep farm system. They could afford to trade for Teixeira. And they were getting him for more than just one year.
Are you seriously going to assert that Selig had no hand in Alderson being Mets GM? Okay discussion over on that.
Regarding trade, believe what you want but it doesn’t make you right. The team being in the post season was the draw. It usually is. Been that way for over 100 years. Was Duquette trading for Zambrano any better? Or Giants trading for Beltran? You’re either naive or not as smart as you think. Maybe you just hate Minaya? That’s a popular position on MMO and MB.
Never once did I say that Selig had “no hand” in Sandy becoming Mets GM. He “urged” Alderson to take the job.
I just want to hear a logical explanation by anyone of why the Mets would need to hire Sandy cut payroll when they could have Omar do it and then why anyone — be it Selig if you say he is running the Mets or the Wilpons — would then let Sandy hire two high-priced ass’t GM types just to cut payroll. Frankly, it just doesn’t make any sense.
And, sure, a team being in the playoffs is a draw, but for whom? Current fans? Yes. Potential owners? Questionable. Especially if you gut the farm system to get there.
A logical explanation for firing Minaya? How about the MSM and fan base wanting his head on a platter? Does the term PR value ring a bell? What about agents of change?
Huh? No. I asked for a logical explanation of why — if Sandy’s sole purpose was to cut payroll — he was then told to spend an extra 3-5 million to hire depo and ricciardi. It makes zero sense. There is an inherent contradiction there.
Another logical explanation for it?
He got fired for the same reason Wright got extended….
Public Relations move….
Sandy HIMSELF said that he would NOT be the GM unless Selig “urged” him to take the position
bwahahahahahahahahahaha
LOL. Non-sequitur much?
Metro12 with another lie
“Colon was going to be a free agent too, so the chances of him signing with the Expos were practically nill.”
Colon was signed for another year…
and Omar was told by Selig he had to trade him…so he flipped Colon for El Duque, lowering payroll and magically staying productive. Something Sandy cant figure out how to do yet ( even with 2 other GM’s on his payroll)
On this specific point you are absolutely correct.
But I think you realize the readers here are hard to convince to give Minaya a fair shake. At least it’s still better than Metsblog where the Cerrone and Baron lead the ignorance parade.
Fair shake ?
The MSM did this on Omar’s 3rd day on the job
ut then again…
he was hearing this kinda of unprecedented BS since the 3rd day on the job…
10-3-04
DN:
A lot of the managerial candidates mentioned in reports, even if you haven’t acknowledged them, have Hispanic heritage. Carlos Tosca is interviewing this week. White Sox third base coach Joey Cora and former White Sox manager Jerry Manuel have been mentioned. Are you going to put particular emphasis on hiring a minority manager and furthering diversity in baseball?
OM:
No. That will have nothing to do with it. Good managing has nothing to do with heritage. It has to do with communication. It has to do with understanding.
DN:
You are in a position, though, to further diversity.
OM:
It doesn’t matter. You go out and try to find the best man for that particular job. To me, you become blind to race, color, religion. That should not play at all a role in making that decision.
———————–
good thing we have a white gm now..he can sign whoever he wants ( for min wage ) and never has to worry about this kinda BS anymore from the press…
A month later…
this is what folks were saying…
Re: Omar pursuing Ola Jojima
Comment posted by Rick Crane on November 4, 2005 at 10:44 am (#15163)
Relax Metsgeekers!!! Supposedly, this guy is fluent in Spanish. That seems to be the language of choice in the Met’s clubhouse, and is probably one of the reasons that Omar is persuing him. Ola Jojima!!!
===========================
and that was before Omar signed Pedro and Beltran…
I got about 1000 more links to posts like this…
The behavior of Met fans during this time period is easily the most embarrassing period of my time being a a Met fan
you know what it is to be raised in a Yankee household…and have to not only deal with arrogant Yankee fans making fun of my team, but also deal with them hearing this kind of talk and throwing it in my face ..
Thank God my GM can sign whoever he wants w/o upsetting the Rocky Balboa crowd
Not a lie. A mistake. At least I admit it. A lie is when damaja won’t admit he is wrong and keeps insisting that there are payroll rankings on a web page that has none — even when everyone else has already chimed in confirming he is wrong! That’s a lie. LOL
Regardless, it’s typical of Omar to neglect a farm system and destroy it for near-sighted goals that are far-fetched. The Expos ended up far out of the WC and the division lead in 2002.
It’s also typical for Omar to get relative junk back instead of elite prospects he gave up for Colon in the first place. As I’ve been saying, Omar makes terrible trades.
“It’s also typical for Omar to get relative junk back instead of elite prospects he gave up for Colon in the first place.”
Why would Omar trade Colon for prospects when he wasnt sure if the team was still going to exist next year !
try again, but with more feeling
Because junk is never a good proposition. And if the team does come back the next year, you’d still have something of value. Omar typically went for junk. Look how much they got out of El Duque, LOL. Nothing.
Try again if you can … with or without more feeling!
its called a SALARY DUMP YOU DOPE
If the expos take on more salary, they get better prospects,
since the expos had to…DROP salary, Omar had to settle for what he can get
and even with el duque out for the entire year…Omar fleeced SF for Livan Hernandez, who won 15 games with a 3.20 ERA, leading the NL in IP for 3 straight seasons.
again, you would be doing backflips if Sandy was half as good as Omar at trades
You don’t salary dump a pitcher who went 20-8 with a 2.93 ERA the year before, YOU UTTER MORON!!
Oh, unless you’re Omar who thinks the art of the trade means blinking first and valuing quantity over quality.
There were plenty of teams that Omar could have traded Colon too, but he chose to get crap.
Omar is one of the worst at trades. If he were still with the Mets doing trades now, we’d all be mourning.
The Colon 2003 trade explained
ESPN – Should Minaya absorb all the egging and TP-ing for this awful trade? Not by a long shot. Step forward, Bud Selig, to claim your prize.
Every off-season, hordes of teams cut payroll. They didn’t perform as expected, attendance wasn’t as good as they’d hoped, and the owner wants to hold the line on salaries. No biggie. Get the GM working the phones, start talking to suitors, and see what you can do to chop salary while reloading the team’s pool of young talent.
Not the Expos. Minaya had to sit through the World Series and several more weeks while the owners twiddled their thumbs over the Expos’ 2003 schedule (so 22 “home” games in Puerto Rico won’t put them at a disadvantage, right?) and the season’s payroll. When the owners emerged from talks, they breathlessly told every wag who’d listen that the Expos would have to slice their payroll down to about $40 million before Opening Day.
And why not? As co-owners of the Expos, it was in their best interests to spread word of the Expos’ plight, making it clear Minaya would have no leverage with which to negotiate. Not only could big-game hunters like the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets hope to drop the price for prizes like Vladimir Guerrero, Jose Vidro, Javier Vazquez and Colon, but even secondary shoppers could get Orlando Cabrera, Michael Barrett and Tony Armas for a couple of tattered Andy Stankiewicz bubble gum cards.
They’d be chumps not to try. It was Selig who’d dragged his feet taking action on the Expos’ future from Day One. Selig engineered the all-too-convenient Jeffrey Loria to Florida-John Henry to Boston-Expos to hell dance after the 2001 season. While embattled Montreal fans stewed and jilted fans in Washington and other potential future markets fumed, Selig hatched a brilliant plan to create a team whose identity would revolve around one overriding principle: conflict of interest. Every time another team made even the smallest deal with the Expos, it was doing so with an ENTITY it partially OWNED. This was absurdly shady even by MLB standards.
The Colon deal, and all the public negotiations that went with it, was merely the coup de gross. GMs practice gamesmanship all the time while negotiating deals – it’s an established part of the game. But by laying all the Expos’ cards on the table before anyone else had to place a bet, MLB gave suitors a chance to take negotiating tricks to a new level.
The Red Sox, for one, didn’t get their man in Colon, a fact that’ll light up more than a few smiles in the Bronx. But throughout the Colon negotiations, freshly minted GM Theo Epstein showed he knows how to dance. The Yankees backing off and Minaya growing more desperate? Time to pull Casey Fossum off the table. Minaya trying to close the deal? Make sure the media gets wind of Colon’s off- season condition, downgraded from portly to just-ate-Garces. Other teams also joined the information-leaking party. A few more days of waiting and someone would be checking into rumors of Vlad’s leprosy.
==============
Basically…the same group of owners who all partially OWNED the EXPOS, colluded in bringing down the asking price for Omar, who had to trade Colon before the season started…
Sandy has never in his life worked under those conditions AND STILL produced a team not only over .500 but in a pennant chase
More excuses for Omar, the court jester of trades!
I’d maybe believe some of that if not for the fact Omar FU’d so many trades for the mets.
Face it, Omar is a failure at trades.
Metro12 – LMAO
i show u proof that Omar’s circumstances were completely NOT in his favor as reason why he traded Colon for a pack of bubblegum and you still wont admit it…
Omar’s 2003 Expos on a 39 million dollar budget had to trade Floyd and Colon for dog-sh*t ( their 2 most productive players )
AND STILL the Expos made a run for the playoffs…
winning percentages for Sandy’s teams he had to cut payroll for
How about those 1993 A’s ? .420
How about those 1994 A’s ? .447
How about those 1995 A’s ? .465
How about those 1996 A’s ? .481
How about those 1997 A’s ? .401
How about those 2008 Padre’s ? .389
How about those 2009 Padre’s ? .463
How about those 2011 Met’s ? .475
How about those 2012 Met’s ? .457
Sandyball at its finest !!!!
Yes, he’s made some bad moves(we all know that), but he’s also made some really good ones too. What above these trades?
Jacobs, Petit, and some other minor leaguer for Delgado.
The Santana trade
two minor leaguers for Lo Duca
Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez
Benson for Maine and Julio
Corey Coles and Ryan Myers for Pagan
Julio for Orlando Hernadez(this was acutally a good move since he went ( 9-7 4.00 ERA 1.23 WHIP in 116 IP in 06)
Sure there were some bad ones also like trading Bell and trading for Putz, but it’s unfair to say he makes terrible trades because he did make some very nice trades here too.
Whoa, Metro,
I’ve been expressing the opinion that Sandy was brought in solely to handle the financial problems ever since Metsie suggested I vet further into Sandy Alderson’s background last spring . I’ve been insisting that he was the financial person and unqualified to handle areas of player evaluation – though unfortunately he does not see himself in that manner, at least publicly.
Even recently I’ve been talking about Sandy being anything but a professional baseball person and brought in to address the legal and financial problems, citing he had no professional qualifications regarding player evaluation and strategy simply by things he’s said just the past half year – being unable to venture an opinion about Ike Davis’ mechanics, calling himself just an observer, the PPPA fiasco, etc. I’ve been quoting Bill James on the limitations of statistical analysis which is what Sandy bases his knowledge on (the PPPA thing again being an example).
if I went further back in detail one of the many subjects I would have spoken about was Bill Rigney in Oakland and that is a conversation I want to avoid only because I’m tired of being called a liar, pathetic and a whiner – just like I am sure you and all the others are tired with the personal insults thrown your ways.
And I’ve always said the payroll was the least of the Mets problems and if that was all it was, they indeed did not Sandy to do that and that he wouldn’t be here.
Also, I’ve mentioned numerous times how the financial crunch caused ten percent of the office workers and those in the ticket booth to lose their jobs – while Sandy had no hesitation to make his front office one of the highest paid in the majors. And that he showed bad taste and indifference to those he fired by the hiring of his son as scouting coordinator. I therefore contended that he was against spending money on most anything – except when it came to his own salary demands and those for his people.
Just like the Wilpons are hesitant to spend money yet rent a private helicopter to fly them round trip to Florida to catch the NCAA last spring.
So it’s not a question of my avoiding an answer – it’s a question that I’ve answered it so darn much!
OK, Joey, so let me get this straight, according to you, Selig told Sandy to take the job in order to help make the team more cost-efficient (but not necessarily to cut payroll, right?) …or to cut general expenses (or however you want to phrase it) … but he also told Sandy it was OK to spend millions on TWO high-priced FO executives to make the baseball decisions?
Is that what you are saying?
If so, how can you reconcile that with your claim that none of the decisions are being made for baseball reasons but only for financial reasons. Are you then saying that depo and ricciardi are just powerless figureheads being totally overruled by Sandy? That they aren’t doing anything to earn their salaries? And that Selig and the Wilpons are aware of this monumental FO waste and are OK with it?
Joey — Put another way, since Sandy was brought over to handle JUST the financial situation, and depo handles the farm system, then that means the Mets true GM is Ricciardi? LOL. Yikes!
Is that it?
Joey — Some additional thoughts —
I really can’t buy into your theory that Sandy’s sole reason for coming over was to handle the financial side of things. Was he hired to fix the problems Omar left behind? Of course. But those problems represented a range of both baseball and financial issues. He was given the task of both making the team more cost-effective while also building a winner. Obviously with so little money to spend initially the only way he could achieve the latter was to do it primarily through the farm. While this is right down his alley, it appears he would have preferred the leeway to supplement that with free agent signings early on. But he never had that luxury.
It’s just too hard to think he was given the green light to hire pricey execs like depo and ricciardi if his main responsibility was to simply cut costs throughout the entire organization. Even if you believe that depo and ricciardi were the ones to handle the baseball decisions, why pay so much for them? Why two high-priced execs? Why not just one and then use Ricco?
Now as to what Sandy knew beforehand, here is an excerpt from a NYDN article dated February 1, 2011 which supports my view that he didn’t know many specifics and hadn’t anticipated any financial doom:
Alderson added he was aware of the Wilpons’ “preexisting involvement” with Madoff when he left MLB to accept the Mets’ GM position. Still, he “wasn’t privy to all of the detail – nor am I, or most of us, at this point – and I would not expect to be. At the same time, none of that has affected what I’ve done over the last two months and I don’t expect it will have any impact on what I do over the next several, including into the 2012 offseason.”
Link: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-confidence-mets-undiminished-wilpons-woes-madoff-scam-article-1.137885#ixzz2HuAclwGt
A day later this report appears in the NYDN:
“I think all of us in baseball were aware there was an association with Bernie Madoff, but the real question is to what extent has that affected the Wilpons? I’m not sure they even know at this point how it will affect them,” Alderson said. “I wouldn’t say it’s irrelevant, but at the same time, it really hasn’t impacted me and I don’t think it’s going to impact me going forward if they bring in the investors they are seeking.”
Link: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-02/sports/27738554_1_mets-gm-wilpons-payroll
To recap, Sandy didn’t have details and he said, just as I said, that even the Wilpons likely didn’t know the extent of their Madoff legal-financial issues (leaving that to the lawyers and accountants). And that at that point, he didn’t anticipate that the financial situation would worsen to the point where the payroll for 2012 would need to be slashed the way it eventually was.
So to me, this shows that Alderson when he took the job, did NOT know of any financial doomsday condition with the Mets as you assert.
I know you might say that Alderson was just lying in these newspaper reports. But that’s a pretty harsh judgment to make on anyone without any proof. I will never say that anyone is lying unless given proof. Even Omar, as bad as he was as GM, wasn’t a liar.
Who had post number 666? The anti-Minya or the anti-Alderson?
Joey I just checked and the 666th comment was left by some guy called Lou Cypher.
Was he looking for Johnny Fontaine ?
Exactly, well at least somebody got my joke. lol
Hi Metro,
Just found another difference between us – you take Sandy at his word and I don’t.
Sandy has been caught saying one thing and then admitting something else too often for me to trust him. That is why I only use his quotes for reference and the elaborate with other source material instead.
Joey — If your position is that Sandy lies, then you should never use a statement from him to support a position of yours. Because whether you are directly quoting him or simply paraphrasing him, you never know if it is the truth, right? You can’t say on the one hand that a statement from Sandy supports your position, but then another doesn’t because he may not be telling the truth. Sorry, you just can’t have it both ways.
Personally, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until it’s proven otherwise. I also don’t take seriously “GM speak” which are statements made for public consumption and are often purposely vague or misleading in order not to embarrass people or reveal competitive or personal information. For example, a player may have been traded because his teammates didn’t like him. Obviously, a GM will give another reason to the media. Or a player may be hurt but the GM may say otherwise in not to give the other team a heads up on the player’s lack of availability.
A GM also cannot be held responsible when what he says at one point in time is rendered false much later on by changing financial circumstances. For example, Sandy said early in 2011 that the 2012 payroll would be a certain number. Well, financial conditions got worse and the Wilpons changed that number. So, many months later he told the media the 2012 payroll would be even lower. Circumstances change and to not give someone slack for those changed conditions is not reasonable.
At any rate, I just hope you’ll be consistent and not use anything Sandy says to either support or refute your position.
Hey Metro,
Saw your statement about Sandy lying and I couldn’t resist jumping in here.
As one who was credentialed by Omar Minaya and then that carried over into the Sandy regime, let me make it perfectly clear that based on my own personal experiences with both GM’s that it would be safe to say that all GM’s are less than forthright.
I would further add that because Alderson gets in front of a mic a whole heck of lot more than Minaya ever did, you could say Sandy bullshits in greater frequency.
I still cant believe Alderson told me that he was meeting with Jose Reyes to extend him an offer at the Winter Meetings before he boarded his plane.
Before that plane landed Reyes had already agreed to a deal with the Marlins. After Sandy got to the hotel he gave a presser 30 minutes later and said he knew Reyes was signing with the Marlins the day before.
WTH?!?!?!
That was stone cold, and silly me for believing him all along. I knew then never to believe anything he says publicly or privately, and I don’t.
Joe D, I can understand why that might have miffed you, but how can you take seriously anything any GM says about a player he is attempting to sign or trade for? Such situations are highly fluid and also demand a lot of secrecy. Even misdirection is often called for. (Brian Cashman does it all the time.)
The Reyes negotiations were very fluid and Sandy said himself on the Sunday night before the winter meetings he wasn’t sure what the situation with Reyes was. But he also said that it appeared there was another higher offer than what the Mets were prepared to offer. He just wasn’t sure. So maybe all things are true — that before he hopped on the plane he had hoped to meet with Reyes. That shortly thereafter he found out (via discussions with Reyes agent) that he had a higher offer.
If you read this article, maybe the timing is not so contradictory as you remember:
‘
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/36857/alderson-on-losing-reyes
Not sure exactly when in this sequence you talked to Sandy, though.
At any rate, yes, they all use GM speak at times and they have to. And, as I said, some like Cashman uses it all the time. That doesn’t mean at other times you can’t take their words at face value.
>Personally, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until it’s proven otherwise.
>I also don’t take seriously “GM speak” which are statements made for public consumption and are often purposely vague or misleading
so basically, we shouldnt believe anything Sandy says because he is probably bullsh*tting us
awesome!
No, basically it means you have to use common sense to know when a GM might be less than candid. And unless there are clear instances of lying in situations that didn’t require some secrecy or discretion, then you give people the benefit of the doubt.
All GMs twist the truth and/or are less than candid at times. I’m sure there are plenty of instances for Omar too. A smart fan learns to dismiss this as GM speak.
And most with common sense know that when Sandy says he is building this team up for a long a fruitful competitive future he is full of it then too!
He’s only saying that because he doesn’t want the fans to realize he’s cutting salary winning be damned and by the time people like you figure it out he won’t be here to have to listen to how you hate him for decieving you!
If you think CONTEXT and HIDING MOTIVES is reason for a GM to lie that scenario fits it better than any scenario you could use to justify his past lies!
Hi Joe D.,
Since the comments aren’t arranged in chronological order I was unable to locate Lou’s in this hopefully record breaking article. But I’ll keep on looking – unless Lou wants to repeat what he said so we can dub him the unofficial anti-Omar, anti-Sandy, anti-saber, or anti-something. Lou, will be terribly disappointed if you at least weren’t anti-something here!
And also thanks for pointing out about your own experience with Sandy. I don’t know if I mentioned that I understood that no GM – or any business person -will be totally forthright with the public so I don’t want others to think I was naive about this.
And Metro, I use Sandy Alderson’s quotes to show the double-talk, i.e., his remark about trades not being made anymore due to talent (McGwire trade) or that one cannot expect to win with inexpensive players (referring to those he signed the two prior years) to point out where it indicates he is coming from.
Hope Joe D. got lots of clicks with this.
LOL I was just joking with a play on words.
666 = Lou Cypher = Lucifer
I take it you never saw Angel Heart starring Robert DiNiro in the role of Mr. Louis Cypher?
And Metro, I use Sandy Alderson’s quotes to show the double-talk, i.e., his remark about trades not being made anymore due to talent (McGwire trade) or that one cannot expect to win with inexpensive players (referring to those he signed the two prior years) to point out where it indicates he is coming from.
Joey, I have no clue what you are talking about there. But if you are comparing something Sandy said 20 years ago with something he says now, and using that as an inconsistency, well that is warped. Not only do circumstances change (a lot over 20 years) but people change.
And beware — in the future if I see you using a Sandy quote to support a point of yours and it’s not to bring up an inconsistency, I’m going to call you out!
but you can always whip out the subjective “common sense” card to say Sandy was within his rights to be misleading whenever you want !
AWESOME !!!!
Most people understand what common sense is except for those like you who don’t have any.
LOL, you’re just lost damaja.
common sense like Beltran and Omar’s “personal connection”, a theory u still have no proof to provide yet
LMAOOOOOOOOO
That makes perfect common sense. More sense than you continuing to argue there were payroll rankings on that page when everyone told you there weren’t LOLOLOL!
And still not being man enough to admit you were wrong. What a dolt you are!
yes those were payroll estimates
I provided you with payroll rankings that proved my theory.
Sandy never won a damn thing with a shoe string budget
Sandy with the mets has a shoe string budget
Sandy wont win a thing with the mets on a shoe string budget
and unless we get billy beane to come after, chances are neither will Grady Fu..I mean JP
LMFAO, damaja, you still can’t admit you were wrong.
You were arguing that there were payroll RANKINGS on that page. Not on any other page. And you were simply 100% wrong. Everyone was laughing at you and even Joey said there were no payroll rankings on that page.
LOLOLOLOL!
Why should he admit to being wrong when he’s not wrong you are and you just can’t find proof to prove your fantasy….
yes it makes perfect common sense to assume that the director of player personel has a personal connection with a player you have absolutely no proof he ever saw in person.
You cant provide a link with anything Omar ever said that claimed he saw Beltran in HS
But yes, its perfect sense to assume Omar has a “personal connection” with Beltran !
I guess we can assume Paul Depo has a personal connection with every single draft pick from the first 3 rounds last year !
Yes that makes sense !
Common Sense !!!
Like the wrapper !
LMFAO, you really are a pinhead. I never said I can prove it. It’s just what I believe and it makes perfect common sense.
As director of LA scouting for so many years and Beltran being a top 5 PR prospect it would be surprising if Omar hadn’t personally scouted him and met him before.
Believe what you want. You have a warped agenda and a mountainous chip on your shoulder!
It would also be surprising that neither Beltran nor Omar have ever spoken of having known each other before !!!
UNLIKE RA DICKEY
UNLIKE ALEX CORA
UNLIKE KEVIN BROWN
UNLIKE FERNANDO TATIS
maybe because you need Omar to have a “personal connection” to Beltran so you can defend your ridiculous notion that Omar would not have traded Beltran ( despite if his BOSSES told him to or not )
Omar is going to risk being fined for insubordination because of a made up personal connection you have no proof of ..
and going by those guidelines…wouldnt the head of every latin american scouting department have a “personal” connection with Carlos Beltran?
does Paul DePo have a “personal connection” with Courtney Hawkins now?
I have no proof that he scouted him, I just know Courtney was one of the top prospects in America the same year Depo was running the draft. 15 years from now, with no proof, after Hawkins is signed as a free-agent by Paul DePo, we can say it was due to his “personal connection”
that makes sense !!!
I guess we can assume Paul Depo has a personal connection with every single draft pick from the first 3 rounds last year !
I’d go for that. Why not? I’d be shocked if he hadn’t personally met them by now if he didn’t scouted each one personally.
Get that enormous chip off your shoulders, damaja. It’s weighing you down and you can’t think straight.
yes !!!
Paul Depo has a “personal connection” with the 240 players so far selected in the first 3 rounds of the 2011 and 2012 draft !!!!
15 years from now, when 10% of these players are in the league, and Depo is now dealing with them as 34 year olds instead of 18-20 year olds…we can say that he had a personal connection with that player !!!
Minaya oversaw 5 drafts with Texas. Minaya has personal connections with damn near every hot prospect from latin america drafted or signed in the 90′s !!!
because that makes sense !!!
Hi Joe D.,
Obviously, you had me completely fooled on that, you little devil you.