Again, it all depends upon what one thought of a the club as of November, 2010. If I felt tweaking it a bit would only result maybe in a third place club for several years then I would too agree for a bigger overhaul. But many of us saw the talent on the club being too good as it was for just that – better tweaking in our opinion could have enabled to club to sustain being a playoff contender through the enitre season.

VBut even so, how would we be stuck with an aging ballclub the next few seasons? The infield would have been with young Davis at first, Murphy entering his prime at second, Reyes his prime at short and Wright his prime at third. The outfield would have been Bay slowly replaced by young Duda in left, Pagan in his prime in center, and an aging Beltran, around through just the 2013 season at third. Catching would need an upgrade from Thole.

The starting rotation would be solid with Dickey (young arm), Neise, Gee, Harvey and one of the kids we already had battling for the fith position (or acquiring an established pitcher instead). We would need help in the bullpen leading to KRod (for one or two years only) but Francsico could have been used in his more comfortable middle reliever role and Parnell would have been something to build on – with some of the other young arms being mentioned in the farm system being shifted to relief.

Eventually all teams get old but does that mean one should not have one where the core players were mostly all in their prime years since that would mean in 2014 replacing our right fielder and around 2016 or 2017 begin looking for another starter, a new shortstop, third baseman and center fielder? Isn’t that what the farm system and free agency is for – to allow for that transition in personnel to happen? And if this also meant the Mets having the ability of making a good run from 2011 through to about 2016, isn’t that what athletic competition is all about?

Again, comes down to our peception of how things stood that Novembe day in 2010 – was the best we could expect with some tweaks was a string of third place clubs or would we be like Toronto – thinking that with some good tweaks one could start looking towards possibly playing October baseball?

1 – You never go see the MLB team and live near one of thier Farm affiliates and thats where you go to see and enjoy Baseball…

2 – Your last name is Wilpon and your mentioned in his will

Oh Wait there is a third conclusion that is possible….

3 – Your Dumber than a Cart!

By 2015 the latest, the former model should easily outperform the – virtual – latter….

Yes and he has rebuilt to a 70-75 win team ACTUALLY….
albeit a cheap pile of crap

The team Alderson inherited was an expensive 80 to 85 win-team structurally – with an injured ace SP, of course, that was a bit unlucky with injuries
Putting financial issues aside, it´d have cost an estimated 35 to 40 million $ or so annually to extend Beltran (12.5 annually) & Reyes (16 annually) and restructure K-Rod´s contract to avoid the ugly vesting option (let´s say, 3-years, 30 million). You would have saved the money on FF for 2012 and 2013, so the “extra” cost is merely 32 million $ or so.
So, to keep it an 80 to 85 win team, the 2012 Mets payroll would have had to be in the 125 million $ range – to win 84 games instead of 74 games (with Beltran, Reyes, Pagan and K-Rod), assuming everything else works out alright.

And no Wheeler gets added for the longterm picture. Now you keep Dickey & Pagan for 2013 (extending both longterm). Your 2013 payroll projection (with Wright, Santana, Bay, etc) suddenly jumps to 145 million again. Again, your outlook remains maybe 85 wins.
Unless you can add better relievers and another bat – maybe at C or in LF. Overall, you´re looking at a 155+ million payroll for an aging roster bound to finish 3rd in the NL East.

Like I said Rollins and Howard were all TOP OF ROUND picks….
Thats HALF thier Core….

Hamels and Utley were top half….

And now where (and how high in the rounds) did they get all those players you insist thier farm got them via trades?

Even their FAILED picks kept a modicum of trade value because they were TOP ROUND picks who continued to have the CIELING BA puts so much stock in (and you think teams think the same) to get the players they needed to win a WS?

Victorino was a Rule 5 pick….What pick position did they have to get Victorino before anyone else could?

Where would Cashen have been without 5 Top 5 Picks in the 80′s?

Would there have been a Strawberry and Gooden if not for all the losing?
Would we have had a Brooks and Mazilli to trade without it either?

How long did the Braves suck and collect high round picks to build what they did?

The biggest part of rebuilding is making the most of your draft, and not just in the 1st round but ALL rounds as the Phillies showed with Howard and Rollins, Two players they would be NO WHERE without. Why did they get them? Because they picked High in the rounds they got them and even if someone else saw the potential worth of that round they didn’t have the chance to get them unless they passed on OTHER players many team thought were better than them based on the scouting….

So losing is what helps you rebuild the way the Braves, Phillies and Cashen built….
Cashen is really the ONLY one to trade away any resonable talent to get kids and all he got as gar as kids go is Darling and Terrel, Brooks went for MLB talent and they had to ADD kids to get it.
Where did those kids come from?
Those high positioned rounds they got from being so bad in the win column.

LMAOOOOO

When one lacks facts…Ya gotta faith

2019 ?

Our expectation level in 2010 was getting to the playoffs…we were never THAT far behind that a playoff run was beyond the realm of possibility…

In 2011, from February to July, we reserved some hope that the team could make the playoffs..

From December to July of 2012, we reserved some hope that the team could make the playoffs…

Sandy has consistently lowered the bar for us…to the point where just getting to .500 is an achievement worth keeping 2 trade chips for ( Hairston and Byrdack )

If Sandy was thinking 2014 and beyond was when we were going to contend…why on earth would he not deal David Wright….who would’ve brought back prospects that we could flip either then or sometime in 2013 for a young player

We had 2 guys who could play 3B in Murphy and Flores…3B was actually a place were we had some decent depth in…outfield, 1B, SS, 2B, C are places we dont have much depth in….

the lack of common sense exercised by this front office is beyond mind boggling…

I mean when Sandy addressed the Ike Davis rumors…never once did he deny that the rumors came from him or anyone from the team….he could have EASILY put out that fire by saying it was the result of some thirsty newsreporter looking for a story, the team is happy with Ike Davis, he is a building block for the future, they love him to death, yadda yadda ya…

the cost of that would’ve been 0 dollars….

the public relations cost in terms of how the front office is perceived will impact them when it comes to extending Ike and/or bringing in free-agents…

I mean Ike hasnt raped any nuns or killed any ex-girlfriends ( insert Ambrioux Burgos jokes here —-> ______ )

there was no value in throwing him under the bus…

Ditto with Ruben Tejada diving into 1B ….this error was repeated on Metsblog for 8 weeks

Ditto with Ruben Tejada showing up on time for spring training….as opposed to 2 weeks early..

this story was a daily topic on SNY for 3 weeks…

Ditto with the 101 stories of Jordany Valdespin being the new non-english speaking version of Lastings Milledge

None of us have access to the locker room….who the fork cares if he wears sunglasses when he goes to the bathroom ( according to Matt Cerrone ) or wears his shirt unbuttoned on the bus…or wears gold chains ( according to Michael Baron )

They actually started the jordany valdespin bashing in 2011, when SNY went on a 10 minute tangent talking junk about a player hardly anyone had ever heard of…

Then Sandy had his box of chocolates line…

Also had his Lucas Duda jokes, along with making fun of the team for not having any outfielders

Not to mention throwing RA DIckey under the bus…another mind-boggling bad move

From a PR perspective, this front office for all their mastery of the english language are an absolute joke.

The only thing they had once upon a time was the expectation that came with holding some Ivy League degrees and looking the part…

thats it…

thats all…

The Firm ( aka Sandy’s faithful followers ) will dismiss 99.999% of what I have to say….just chalking it up to me being a hater or Omar Minaya’s illegitimate son….

reality is…Sandy’s Firm is getting smaller and smaller…and are looking more like the folks who dont believe climate change is real or our military industrial complex isnt big enough yet…facts and details are just annoying things that get in the way of their faith…

and if there is anything they have…its blind faith…

Happy 2013 !

You know if it was a case of signing NO ONE and playing some kids that maybe prove they are worth having as an OF it would be one thing….

But we are NOT doing that out of want we are doing that out of LACK of getting someone better and the few guys we ARE getting are no better than Kirk or Valdespin when it comes right down to it…

Kirk hit .252 last year and was sent down, We just hired a guy who hit .220!
Valdespin hit better at .241.

What is seen in this guy that isn’t seen in those two? How can you justify signing a guy who has never done anything vs a guy who HAS but didn’t last year on a team that lost most of it’s hitting lineup and everyone had a down year at the plate?

I just don’t see how the MONEY is more important than the performance OR how it’s better being saved in Wilpon’s bank account than it is on spending it to get a guy who can hold the fort until the NEXT BA DARLING is ready to take his position from him because he is ready….

These are PRECISELY the kind of deals you claim the Phillies made in getting Werth to fill a position the Minors couldn’t fill and Victorino is much better in most regards than Werth is….

Yes he is 32, How old is Hairston?

And again I assume this is all about MONEY with you on this topic which I will say again is WORTHLESS to save money unless you intend to spend it on improvements.

Putting those savings in Wilpon’s coffers does NOTHING to help this ballclub either NOW or in the near future.

Howard 5th rounder (pick 140)
Utley 1st rounder in 2000 (pick 15)
Rollins 2nd rounder (pick 46)
Victorino Rule 5 2004
Werth free agent 2006
Hamels 1st rounder 2002 after 86 win season (pick 17)

So I still don’t really think your point is valid. Utley and Hamels were picks 15th and 17th, not exactly “Tank” picks, Rollins was a 2nd rounder pick 11 and Howard was an early 5th rounder.

I can’t really see how you can look at the Phils 08-11 playoff runs and say “They got lots of high Draft picks from that time until thier asendency to playoff caliber team”

It’s not like they had top 5 draft picks year after year. In fact when the Phils drafted Hamels, the mets took Kazmir before him

Because when you have filders behind you thatyou trust to make the play you don’t worry about making the perfect pitch every time and don’t fear them making contact on a strike you threw because you you know at least two times in three or better your fielders will make the play on it…..

It also helps you to know that even if a guy gets on base it’s not the end of the world which lets you relax and just do what you do as opposed to going outside of what your capable of merely because you fear the run scoring and costing you a win.

And I didn’t even TOUCH on the affect a good hitting lineup has on a Pitcher and his effectiveness where it is WELL KNOWN that Pitchers with a lead usually pitch much better because they don’t have to fear losing the lead on every pitch.

Believe it or not it IS a TEAM SPORT and the team around you has a great impact on how good you are and for how long!
How long goes directly to those stats you cite…

How many were bottom half of a round?

When you pick in the top half or top 10 of a round your essentially getting half a round better players than the rest of the league is…And what doesn’t work out as far as players for you gets traded for those guys you didn’t draft but needed like Halladay, Lee and others…

And pray tell when did Kendric and Meyer become part of the CORE the Phillies built around?

Please yo stretch anymore your likely to snap something…Lets hope it’s just you snapping back to reality….

If you’re asking me on this team would I rather have Kirk for 3 years of Victorino at 13m a year for 3, I’m taking my chances with Kirk. I don’t think Kirk is anything special, but I also don’t think this is 2008 so having Victorino does me no good right now

I don’t see how you can like his signing and say Victorino isn’t good enough to be on this team that has NO OF and it’s best two candidates both hit in the .220s

Performance is relative to that isn’t it?

Point is he brings vet leadership and it was ONE bad year….
A year that hurt the ENTIRE TEAM’s Ba due to injuries and losses t the heart of thier lineup.

I mean we just signed a guy who hit .220 so I dont’t see how you can say a guy who hit .261 in a BAD year for him is not better!

Spending 1 Million on SUCK is not a good thing unless you actually spend the other 12 Million you saved to get something that IS!

Money in Wilpon’s pocket is not money well sent or are you trying to say it is?

At the time guys like Smoltz were no better than Niese when it comes right down to it.

Smoltz didn’t become a great pitcher until 95…Long after Maddox got there…

Glavine was the only one who was good before Maddux got there winning 20 games….

You could say having Maddox actually hurt him since they both were the same types of throwing crap at you type pitcher.

Howard 5th rounder
Utley 1st rounder in 2000 (pick 15)
Rollins 2nd rounder (pick 46)
Victorino Rule 5 2004
Werth free agent 2006
Hamels 1st rounder 2002 after 86 win season (pick 17)
Kendrick 7th rounder
Brett Myers 1999, 1st rounder (12th)

It’s not like they stockpiled top 5 draft pick talent on their way to a title.