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2013
MMO Fair Or Foul: The Rope-A-Dope
An article by 
Check out this article I came across yesterday on NJ.com by David Searles, who seems to have the same concerns about the front office and their strategy as myself, but does a much better job of espousing those concerns than I usually do. 
I decided to review the Mets 40 man roster to see how many players are Alderson acquisitions and how many are holdovers from prior regimes. Only 11 players on the 40 man roster were brought to the Mets by Alderson. The remaining 27 were already here when Alderson was hired (currently, two spots on the 40 man roster are unfilled).
Three years into Alderson’s tenure and this is still largely Omar Minaya’s team. I fully expected the Alderson regime to be very active in “under-the-radar” deals to compensate for their inability to spend their way out of the mistakes of the past. While there are many possible explanations for their lack of activity, the facts point to three highly paid executives employing a “rope-a-dope” strategy of rebuilding the farm system from the bottom up while allowing the major league team to flounder indefinitely.
Every year Alderson claims the Mets are not “punting” the season but his perpetual inactivity suggests otherwise. If your team is far from contending and you do nothing to improve it, it is hard to defend the assertion that you are not punting.
I fully endorse avoiding “lateral” moves made just for the sake of appearing to be active. But the expectation was this dream team front office would be finding diamonds in the rough around the league and stealing away the undervalued players from the competition. Either the league has become very sophisticated in player valuation or the Met front office is all sizzle and no steak.
I am not even asking for a trade like the ones made for Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter. You make those trades when you are much closer to contending. But three years into his regime, I expected Alderson would have found a Bob Ojeda or Howard Johnson by now. ~ Dave Searles, NJ.com
Bravo… Nice job, David… I like that… The rope-a-dope… Make sure you check out his entire post…
I still can’t believe that in three offseasons we have yet to add one MLB player who could be a significant piece for the team in 2014 or beyond. Unless of course they have serious intentions of extending Frank Francisco or John Buck. Lets hope not.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Great analogy! IT is going to be hard to market this team for 2013. Why would anybody want to go see this team? What is this years slogan ” Watch our Mess, Please?”
Punting is to kind a word to used for the season.
The thing about the Rope-A-Dope is eventually you have to come out swinging. Is that 2014?
“The thing about the Rope-A-Dope is eventually you have to come out swinging. Is that 2014?”
I sure hope so because if not there will be very few patient fans left.
As to only 11 players being added to the 40 man by Alderson, I wonder how this compares to GM’s all over baseball in their first 2 years? Of course I also expect a couple of more additions to the 40 man before the season starts and obviously some of the players brought in are young enough they don’t have to be on the 40 man yet.
But it’s not even the number, it’s the value. He has brought no increased value to the ML roster what so ever.
I agree, nothing on the MLB roster yet. I think the plan was always 2014 so that doesn’t really concern me yet considering that TDA and Wheeler both are figured to be additions for 2014.
Honestly even the author admits:
“Rebuilding the farm system is the only way to achieve long term sustained success, so I am not critical of that initiative. ”
Where is main issue is the words coming out of the Mets officials and honestly I don’t give a dang about what they are saying. If a few fans are fooled into thinking that the Mets are going all in for 2013 then let that be on them. I saw the plan when Omar was fired and I have seen nothing to make me believe yet that the plan isn’t still in place. However, that plan can come to a screeching halt around 1 year from now.
No one in their right mind thought they were going all-in in 2013, they just thought that maybe they would actually start doing something. When you have a GM state that catching and outfield are not championship caliber and it’s time to make significant changes because we know what we have, I read that saying OK they are going to make improvements. So he threw away a CY Young pitcher for a catcher. Not hard to do, and given the state of the team I am fine with the move. But this is not a improvement, not yet anyway.
Also, it’s not like in 3 years they have made the farm system some kind of fabled juggernaut. It’s maybe gone from one of the worst farm systems to what maybe the 20th best? Plus any guy that maybe has some hype that he can be connected to is still 4 years away. So by making no moves to the ML roster and modest changes to the farm, this team is only further going downhill.
Sorry, don’t agree but Happy New Year.
Sandy was here to lower payroll…and even moreso…lower expectations….
Our expectation level in 2010 was getting to the playoffs…we were never THAT far behind that a playoff run was beyond the realm of possibility…
In 2011, from February to July, we reserved some hope that the team could make the playoffs..
From December to July of 2012, we reserved some hope that the team could make the playoffs…
Sandy has consistently lowered the bar for us…to the point where just getting to .500 is an achievement worth keeping 2 trade chips for ( Hairston and Byrdack )
If Sandy was thinking 2014 and beyond was when we were going to contend…why on earth would he not deal David Wright….who would’ve brought back prospects that we could flip either then or sometime in 2013 for a young player
We had 2 guys who could play 3B in Murphy and Flores…3B was actually a place were we had some decent depth in…outfield, 1B, SS, 2B, C are places we dont have much depth in….
the lack of common sense exercised by this front office is beyond mind boggling…
I mean when Sandy addressed the Ike Davis rumors…never once did he deny that the rumors came from him or anyone from the team….he could have EASILY put out that fire by saying it was the result of some thirsty newsreporter looking for a story, the team is happy with Ike Davis, he is a building block for the future, they love him to death, yadda yadda ya…
the cost of that would’ve been 0 dollars….
the public relations cost in terms of how the front office is perceived will impact them when it comes to extending Ike and/or bringing in free-agents…
I mean Ike hasnt raped any nuns or killed any ex-girlfriends ( insert Ambrioux Burgos jokes here —-> ______ )
there was no value in throwing him under the bus…
Ditto with Ruben Tejada diving into 1B ….this error was repeated on Metsblog for 8 weeks
Ditto with Ruben Tejada showing up on time for spring training….as opposed to 2 weeks early..
this story was a daily topic on SNY for 3 weeks…
Ditto with the 101 stories of Jordany Valdespin being the new non-english speaking version of Lastings Milledge
None of us have access to the locker room….who the fork cares if he wears sunglasses when he goes to the bathroom ( according to Matt Cerrone ) or wears his shirt unbuttoned on the bus…or wears gold chains ( according to Michael Baron )
They actually started the jordany valdespin bashing in 2011, when SNY went on a 10 minute tangent talking junk about a player hardly anyone had ever heard of…
Then Sandy had his box of chocolates line…
Also had his Lucas Duda jokes, along with making fun of the team for not having any outfielders
Not to mention throwing RA DIckey under the bus…another mind-boggling bad move
From a PR perspective, this front office for all their mastery of the english language are an absolute joke.
The only thing they had once upon a time was the expectation that came with holding some Ivy League degrees and looking the part…
thats it…
thats all…
The Firm ( aka Sandy’s faithful followers ) will dismiss 99.999% of what I have to say….just chalking it up to me being a hater or Omar Minaya’s illegitimate son….
reality is…Sandy’s Firm is getting smaller and smaller…and are looking more like the folks who dont believe climate change is real or our military industrial complex isnt big enough yet…facts and details are just annoying things that get in the way of their faith…
and if there is anything they have…its blind faith…
Happy 2013 !
Well said.
Not entirely. Even Buck is an upgrade over Thole and Nickeas. Pretty low bar but definitely an upgrade.
And lets be honest, d’Arnaud will be the starting catcher with Buck as backup by the time we are back in short pants so yea, he has upgraded one of the most critical spots on the MLB roster.
No at this time it is not a upgrade. We removed a CY Pitcher from the roster for a catcher. In the long term if he pans out, it will be a good trade. But to judge this a an improvement is foolhardy.
Ok, we’ll see.
Hey Boomer,
Feeling any better today? As far as the catching upgrade, I think all Toronto did was “passing the buck”.
Joey-
At this point I am praying for the sweet release of death. 8 days of this flu is wearing me out. For those of you who have not gotten a flu shot yet, do it now.
Buck is a pretty solid defender who had a higher on base percentage and a higher slugging percentage than Thole last year. When d’Arnaud makes his appearance he will be a veteran, right handed power bat off the bench and a guy who can help with a young pitching staff.
Buck + d’Arnaud > Thole + Nickeas
In reading his entire article, Searles does a fine job of surveying the landscape and pointing out the big issues with this team and this plan. Thing will get ugly real fast if this doesnt start bearing fruit this season. And honestly, I dont see that happening. Even if d’Arnaud, Wheeler, Harvey are Straw, Doc, Darling, where is Carter, Hernandez, Knight, Wilson, Ojeda, McDowell and Orosco?
I always wonder why in 2012 we constantly try to compare teams from the 80′s. It’s a totally different game than it was back then. Different styles, different playoff chances, different ways to win a championship.
If and this is a big if. If the Mets are right about Wheeler and d’Arnaud lets say, then in 2014 you have a core of Harvey, Wheeler, Niese, Gee, d’Arnaud, Davis, Wright, Tejada. Then you throw in guys that may have an impact like Familia, Mejia, Fullmer and maybe Syndergaard.
That’s really not that bad to be honest. A lot in my view depends on Harvey, Wheeler, d’Arnaud and mostly Ike Davis. If Ike Davis over the next 4 years is the 2nd half Ike Davis we saw then that will go a long way.
The Mets needs tomorrow will be the same as they are today. Outfield and Bullpen. So they could realistically want to see what they have in the pen for this year out of their farm and go from there no?
Hi Jessep,
Happy new year to you. Why don’t we add to that list of players the prospects would be added to: Reyes, Pagan, maybe even Beltran (last year of a three year contract) – then we might really have something to look forward to – with a few less “ifs”.
Sure, if they had only traded for a money tree then all things would be solved.
hey Joey
“Why don’t we add to that list of players the prospects would be added to: Reyes, Pagan, maybe even Beltran (last year of a three year contract) – then we might really have something to look forward to – with a few less “ifs”.
So you want to have less what if’s but go back and change the course of history? Beltran had as bad of a 2nd half as David Wright did (almost exactly) and Wright is in decline but the same people want Beltran? This idea that Beltran would have signed with the Mets is so ridiculous.
First of all, the Mets weren’t cutting Jason Bay. If you want to say they keep Pagan then you have Pagan in CF. Now you have Duda in RF. Where is Beltran playing exactly? RF? Then where does Duda go? LF? Then where does Bay go? Cut? Unlikely and not Alderson’s fault either.
So why do people constantly act like the Mets were able to play with 4 OF’s and I’m sorry I’ll take the potential of Wheeler any day over Beltran in 2012 and 2013. If he turns out to be as good as even Jon Niese, then the Mets stole him from San Fran.
You can’t change history. You can’t watch the 2013 Mets and say “imagine what they’d be with Beltran!” because it’s a waste of your time. Players move on and so should fans.
Reyes was a free agent at the wrong time. I can’t change that. I wish I could close my eyes and say the Mets owners weren’t getting sued for a quarter of their worth at the time Reyes needed a $100m check, but I can’t. Do I know they would have signed him? No. But I’m pretty comfortable in understanding why they couldn’t.
I can go back and re-do history with a ton of players. I can easily do it watch.
imagine what 07 and 08 would be had the Mets not traded Heath Bell. imagine if joe smith wasn’t traded for jj putz in 08, imagine if they resigned chad bradford after 06, imagine not signing Oliver Perez or Luis Castillo instead of Orlando Hudson. Imagine if Milledge could have been the player we hoped he’d be. Imagine FMart stays healthy and he and Milledge replace Alou & Green.
Minaya would probably still be here, the Mets would have 3 straight division crowns and we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about what might have been
Hi Jessep,
To say that “This idea that Beltran would have signed with the Mets is so ridiculous” infers that all Carlos was doing was giving us lip service right up until the trade. Maybe a contract extension would not have been reached, but that is different than dissmissing the whole notion as purely ridiculous.
http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?w=1chat&e=RAD&storyId=6773844
I mentioned Bay only because he was on the roster going into these past seasons. I would have looked at him as a non-entity after his slow start.
An outfield of Duda/Hairston, Pagan and Beltran would be much better than what Sandy left us with now and would also not be a stumbling block to the future hold back calling for after 2013 Beltran would either be retiring or not re-signed (and with young kids then ready to be called up it would then be the right time for that decision), Hairston being only for the now, and Duda proving he can or cannot hack it in the big time.
If we kept Jose, Tejeda would be a defensive backup for Murphy at second. An infield of Wright, Reyes, Murphy and Davis wouldn’t be so bad either.
Then we would have the speed of Reyes and Pagan at the top of the lineup. Wright would have protection with Beltran. Yes, Carlos tailed off badly in the second half, however, he was a .270 hitter as of August 27 and a .269 hitter as of October 2nd with four home runs so though not all-star quality, it was something. Of course, I understand your point – was it just a second half slump or the beginning of the end. Those are risks all teams have to take and a front office not taking risks is not going to achieve anything.
Above all, I am not saying this would be a blueprint to victory but it would have at least given us a fighting chance as the farm system rebuilds. Why could we not have done both? There is one thing if we get beaten by others, but pulling the rug from underneath us is unacceptable for d’arnaud and Wheeler to me are not worth throwing away three seasons considering the talent we could have retained on the major league level and the prospects on the farm.
I hope that Sandy dismantled that team truly due to the unique and unusual fiscal reasons facing the Wilpons. If he dismanteld it because his baseball people truly felt the Mets could not field a competitor with the talent they had (and could get) then I think they were completely wrong.
Happy new year to you and yours – and don’t come down with Boomer’s flu!
The bad shape the team is now in might make Sandy getting d’Arnaud and Wheeler look good, but it’s how the team acquired these players and the other moves that put us into the shape we now in to me was totally unnecessary unless financially there was no other choice.
Joey – I’m not going to sit here and tell you I believe what a pending free agent says two weeks before a trade deadline. I’m sorry but you can tell me Beltran wanted to be here all you want, I won’t believe it. To further the point – you still haven’t told me how it’d be possible. You want Pagan/Duda/Beltran on the same roster but you can NOT get rid of Bay prior to 2012. You just can’t. So what do you do?
How do you get 4 OF’s in 3 spots? You wanna get rid of Duda? Your only young OF?
You can tell me stories of what might have been all you want. I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by longing for things that didn’t happen.
They got a very solid return for an aging OF with 3 months left on his deal. That’s a fact. You’re arguing that keeping Beltran would have helped us while we wait for the farm to build. Do you not realize the farm took a giant leap forward with Wheeler?
Not only that but even if they wanted to re-sign Beltran following the season they still could have AND they didn’t have the money to do it to start with.
Hi Jessep,
I thought you were aware Carlos was saying he wanted to end his career as a Met from the time Sandy was hired. He was going to meet with Sandy in November, 2011 and when talking about the possibility of his being traded at that time Carlos said he would have to listen and added “If the team was looking to trade me, I’d have to listen. I want to finish my career with the Mets.”
So wanting to stay a Met wasn’t something Carlos just began saying before the trade deadline. What statements and actions led you to the conclusion that this was all simply lip service or that he would be harboring the grudes he had with Omar onto Sandy? If it is only inuendo or believing Carlos was a liar I’ll take your opposite stance and say sorry but that you can tell me Beltran didn’t want to be here all you want, I won’t believe it.
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/metsblog/mets_beltran_would_think_about_waiving_Av7x1y1MwTCguJmek01ShO#axzz2GqGlEmDs
And I’m not longing for things that didn’t happen rather than being angry for what did and the position the past two years has put us into today It’s a matter of how each of us sees the 2010 roster Sandy inherited. Baseball wise, if I thought it wasn’t a good one that couldn’t do better than 79 wins and was indeed aging, I would be agreeing with you 100 percent – dismantle it and get more prospects and look at the next few years as growing pains.
BTW – a problem of four outfielders is better than a problem with almost none don’t you think?
From a solely isolated Baseball point of view, keeping the “old core” would have been an option – albeit a costly one.
The team Alderson inherited was an expensive 80 to 85 win-team structurally – with an injured ace SP, of course, that was a bit unlucky with injuries
Putting financial issues aside, it´d have cost an estimated 35 to 40 million $ or so annually to extend Beltran (12.5 annually) & Reyes (16 annually) and restructure K-Rod´s contract to avoid the ugly vesting option (let´s say, 3-years, 30 million). You would have saved the money on FF for 2012 and 2013, so the “extra” cost is merely 32 million $ or so.
So, to keep it an 80 to 85 win team, the 2012 Mets payroll would have had to be in the 125 million $ range – to win 84 games instead of 74 games (with Beltran, Reyes, Pagan and K-Rod), assuming everything else works out alright.
And no Wheeler gets added for the longterm picture. Now you keep Dickey & Pagan for 2013 (extending both longterm). Your 2013 payroll projection (with Wright, Santana, Bay, etc) suddenly jumps to 145 million again. Again, your outlook remains maybe 85 wins.
Unless you can add better relievers and another bat – maybe at C or in LF. Overall, you´re looking at a 155+ million payroll for an aging roster bound to finish 3rd in the NL East.
“The team Alderson inherited was an expensive 80 to 85 win-team structurally ”
Yes and he has rebuilt to a 70-75 win team ACTUALLY….
albeit a cheap pile of crap
I’d rather have a 70 to 75 win team with a deep farm system and a 75 million $ payroll to work with for the next 3 to 5 years than an 80 to 85 win team with a thin farm system and a 140 million $ payroll.
By 2015 the latest, the former model should easily outperform the – virtual – latter….
Well if thats what you prefer only two possible conclusions can be drawn….
1 – You never go see the MLB team and live near one of thier Farm affiliates and thats where you go to see and enjoy Baseball…
2 – Your last name is Wilpon and your mentioned in his will
Oh Wait there is a third conclusion that is possible….
3 – Your Dumber than a Cart!
HI DrD,
Again, it all depends upon what one thought of a the club as of November, 2010. If I felt tweaking it a bit would only result maybe in a third place club for several years then I would too agree for a bigger overhaul. But many of us saw the talent on the club being too good as it was for just that – better tweaking in our opinion could have enabled to club to sustain being a playoff contender through the enitre season.
VBut even so, how would we be stuck with an aging ballclub the next few seasons? The infield would have been with young Davis at first, Murphy entering his prime at second, Reyes his prime at short and Wright his prime at third. The outfield would have been Bay slowly replaced by young Duda in left, Pagan in his prime in center, and an aging Beltran, around through just the 2013 season at third. Catching would need an upgrade from Thole.
The starting rotation would be solid with Dickey (young arm), Neise, Gee, Harvey and one of the kids we already had battling for the fith position (or acquiring an established pitcher instead). We would need help in the bullpen leading to KRod (for one or two years only) but Francsico could have been used in his more comfortable middle reliever role and Parnell would have been something to build on – with some of the other young arms being mentioned in the farm system being shifted to relief.
Eventually all teams get old but does that mean one should not have one where the core players were mostly all in their prime years since that would mean in 2014 replacing our right fielder and around 2016 or 2017 begin looking for another starter, a new shortstop, third baseman and center fielder? Isn’t that what the farm system and free agency is for – to allow for that transition in personnel to happen? And if this also meant the Mets having the ability of making a good run from 2011 through to about 2016, isn’t that what athletic competition is all about?
Again, comes down to our peception of how things stood that Novembe day in 2010 – was the best we could expect with some tweaks was a string of third place clubs or would we be like Toronto – thinking that with some good tweaks one could start looking towards possibly playing October baseball?
Jessup thats all well and good that we have a bunch of guys who can constitute CORE (many of which are already here in greater numbers than the Yankees, Phillies andBraves started with)..
But do you really think it is ok to WAIT until they are all here to build around them?
Lets just for argument sake say all those names you mentioned are great players…
Will they win anything without an OF worth playing? Will that THIRD of a lineup that has issues hitting and fielding NOT hold thos guys back?
Take it even further…Lets say they all are great enough to make next year competitive….
DO we go and buy 3 OFs then to start the build around? (This assumes the pen is fixed)
Will there even be three OFs worth signing?
We know there were a few available this year, how many really worth having OFs will be available next year? If not enough to fill your OF then haven’t you just WASTED a year of CORE because you did not have the foresight to build a team that Core could win with?
They seem to be procrastinating on building the AROUND of the CORE everyone wants to claim they have but have yet to promote, and the two best acquisitions are due to be promoted this year….
Doesn’t that make this year a good year to start building around them so we don’t put that CORE into an impossible position by having them have to succeed with little help around them?
If you think either of the next two years is when this CORE will be set then no reason to put off tomorrow what is available to day and they should go and get at least ONE piece to solve the problems that will exist AROUND the CORE you intend to build around.
If you wait until the CORE proves it’s a CORE by then it’s too late you already wasted a year of control and performance from that core and risk ruining them or thier confidence (especially where Pitchers are involved) forever.
We all know Pitchers are especially vulnerable when pitching on a team that doesn’t score runs, They try to do too much or be too fine and the end result is thier ERA goes up, their Win PCT goes down and what your left with is a Pitcher who cost a lot and HAD potential until you put him in a situation he couldn’t succeed.
If anyone thinks 2014 is the year the CORE is ready and will be built around then 2013 should have gotten at least one piece to start that proccess.
Nats went and got Werth before Strausburg and thier other pitchers came up.
I’m sure they singed some more too so that when that CORE was promoted it could take them to the playoffs and succeed.
Metsie – so who do you want? What OF did you want that will make a difference longterm in your eyes?
By the way
“Nats went and got Werth before Strausburg and thier other pitchers came up.
I’m sure they singed some more too so that when that CORE was promoted it could take them to the playoffs and succeed”
That’s not accurate at all. Strasburg appeared in 12 games in 2010 while Werth was a Phillie.
I would have signed Victorino to play CF, Hit Leadoff, Help be the leader in the OF and cover more ground to allow Duda to cheat the line a bit more and maybe add a little speed to the top of the order….
He only got a 3 year contract at 13M per (not a back breaking contract by any means)
And would have held the position long enough to allow us to develop without rushing Nimmo who would take his place when the contract was in it’s final year meaning we could have gotten something for him at the trade deadline Circa 2015.
There were other Better guys like Hamilton and Upton to get as well but they would have cost more….And still would not have done much to help us help Duda while we wait for him to find that power stroke everyone agrees he SHOULD have but hasn’t showed with any consistency.
Of course. I am sure Vicki would have trotted right over just because you wanted him and at the same price as well.
oh… so a 32 year old CF coming off his worst career year was your answer for the next 3 years? I was hoping for something a bit more creative
I mean, he did so well for the Dodgers: .245 .316 .351 .667
.255 .321 .383 .704 for the season.
Kirk: .252 .315 .376 .691
Big time upgrade right there.
What did Andrew Brown do forhis team?
I don’t see how you can like his signing and say Victorino isn’t good enough to be on this team that has NO OF and it’s best two candidates both hit in the .220s
i dont remember saying I liked andrew brown being signed? I don’t even know who he is. I’m willing to bet almost everybody who commented here doesn’t – which is why I’m not freaking out 1 way or the other about him. He has a spring invite, great… i’ll let you know what I see.
If you’re asking me on this team would I rather have Kirk for 3 years of Victorino at 13m a year for 3, I’m taking my chances with Kirk. I don’t think Kirk is anything special, but I also don’t think this is 2008 so having Victorino does me no good right now
Wel can I expect a piece from you along the lines that says it was a waste to sign him based on how he had MANY bad years compared to Victorino’s ONE bad year?
You know if it was a case of signing NO ONE and playing some kids that maybe prove they are worth having as an OF it would be one thing….
But we are NOT doing that out of want we are doing that out of LACK of getting someone better and the few guys we ARE getting are no better than Kirk or Valdespin when it comes right down to it…
Kirk hit .252 last year and was sent down, We just hired a guy who hit .220!
Valdespin hit better at .241.
What is seen in this guy that isn’t seen in those two? How can you justify signing a guy who has never done anything vs a guy who HAS but didn’t last year on a team that lost most of it’s hitting lineup and everyone had a down year at the plate?
I just don’t see how the MONEY is more important than the performance OR how it’s better being saved in Wilpon’s bank account than it is on spending it to get a guy who can hold the fort until the NEXT BA DARLING is ready to take his position from him because he is ready….
These are PRECISELY the kind of deals you claim the Phillies made in getting Werth to fill a position the Minors couldn’t fill and Victorino is much better in most regards than Werth is….
Yes he is 32, How old is Hairston?
And again I assume this is all about MONEY with you on this topic which I will say again is WORTHLESS to save money unless you intend to spend it on improvements.
Putting those savings in Wilpon’s coffers does NOTHING to help this ballclub either NOW or in the near future.
Did a 32 year old do any worse last year in a DOWN year than the crap we signed and has NEVER EVER had a Good year?
Performance is relative to that isn’t it?
Point is he brings vet leadership and it was ONE bad year….
A year that hurt the ENTIRE TEAM’s Ba due to injuries and losses t the heart of thier lineup.
I mean we just signed a guy who hit .220 so I dont’t see how you can say a guy who hit .261 in a BAD year for him is not better!
Spending 1 Million on SUCK is not a good thing unless you actually spend the other 12 Million you saved to get something that IS!
Money in Wilpon’s pocket is not money well sent or are you trying to say it is?
Hilarious that some of the other younger prospects are mentioned …yet Neemo is never mentioned as a potential 2014 outfielder !
Well some of Carter, Hernandez, Knight, Wilson, Ojeda, McDowell and Orosco guys shouldn’t be added until those other guys are more ready. But yeah eventually you have to have those veteran guys.
Yes, it´s too early for impact veteran additions.
You make those when you have a core in place.
Not at a time you´re still selling off pieces from the previous core (Dickey) for young pieces you hope will eventually join the “new” core.
We’ll add them when Neemo, Phil Evans and Cecerilli are ready to start over Valdy, Tejada and Murphy !
2019 ?
So lets our young pitchers go out there with no chance of winning. Nothing better to do to a young pitcher than to let them get kicked in the teeth day after day. It’s a real confidence builder. Just getting Duda out of the outfield defensively would be such a improvement both mentally and numbers wise. Just think about how many botched plays he had that just killed the game. Making that change is so easy, but there is no desire to do it.
How might we know what the desire is?
Also, I don’t think letting the young starters get kicked in the teeth hurt the Braves too much before they made their run based on young pitching. 1988 the Braves went 54-106 and Glavine was 7-17 with a mid 4′s ERA along with a 2-7 Smoltz with an ERA over 5. The next year both had break out seasons.
Also, I am fine with Duda in LF. They have much more pressing needs than that.
After 3 years you haven’t figured out their desire?
And please for the love of God don’t ever bring up that Atlanta team to even attempt to compare to what the Mets are doing right now. You couldn’t of picked a worse team to make your point. They had STUDS in their farm system like Justice to go along with their picthing, plus the were still making acquisitions like Lonnie Smith, Darrel Evans, Vinny Castillo, Pendleton, Neon Deion, that turkey neck Sid Bream. They drafted like a beast and continually made improvements to the ML roster, that’s why they were good.
The Mets are sitting on their hands and if something pans out then they will start making moves. They will get better results buying lottery tickets.
I bring up Atlanta only because you made the comment that losing will some how hurt the development of our pitchers. Pitchers pitch, if they are good they will develop they don’t have to be on a winning team to do so and if they are so mentally weak that losing some games they should have won due to lack of run support makes them cower then they weren’t going to pitch well in a pennant race either.
As I said, I have no idea if they envision Duda as a long-term solution to LF. None.
“As I said, I have no idea if they envision Duda as a long-term solution to LF”.
If Sandy Alderson says this on October 4th:
Mike Francessa: Considering the look of your outfield and catching situation, can the Met fan expect to see wholesale changes in those areas or will they have to except subtle change?
Sandy Alderson: In the outfield and behind the plate?
Mike Francessa: Yea.
Sandy Alderson: Much more likely there will be significant change in those areas verses subtle changes. Simply because you have to look at the record and see what kind of production we have gotten from those positions.
Mike Francessa: Zero.
Sandy Alderson: Recognize that there is not a lot of capacity for progress there. We know what we got and it is not championship caliber.
Sandy says we know what we have and it sucks but nothing is done to improve that situation. So as a pitcher if I went out there and Duda flubs another ball, as a pitcher I think that is demoralizing.
Then as a pitcher you are mentally weak and would flounder if the team was competitive anyway.
But back to the point. 2/3 OF are most likely going to change anyway. Just not with good players… LOL. He also never said that the solution to those would come this off-season either which currently is fine by me as long as they are in place for 2014 and beyond. Seriously would adding Bourn and uh… Hairston suddenly make the pitchers pitch better?
I’m gonna channel my inner Alex68 here…
SMGDMFH!!!
Sorry Salty but I am not going to concern myself with what some GM said in an interview at the beginning of an off-season. Regardless of who it is. When Omar was fired I said I would pass judgment on the entire thing by looking at the roster prior to 2014 and that’s where I am at. I see nothing that has changed to make me think otherwise.
TRS – “I see NOTHING that has changed to make me think otherwise.”
LMAOOOOO
When one lacks facts…Ya gotta faith
Yes, it would. If you consider that it allows them to make a mistake or two and it not kill them. Now, that said, I don’t think losing a pick for Bourne, who history says will decline sooner than later (due to speed/legs), will help to make the team better in the long run, but will certainly better the club in the short term.
Sorry Tex but if Niese and Harvey are going to be shaken by having a bad team this year then again I say they will not pitch well for a competitive team in the hunt either. Good pitchers pitch, just as RA and Niese did this year as well.
I’m not saying it turns crappy pitchers into studs. I’m saying a better D makes a pitcher better. Balls get run down in the gaps. DPs are turned more regularly. Etc.
Does it make them a better pitcher or give them better stats?
Deep thoughts by Jack Handey.
“Does it make them a better pitcher or give them better stats?”
BOTH!
Because when you have filders behind you thatyou trust to make the play you don’t worry about making the perfect pitch every time and don’t fear them making contact on a strike you threw because you you know at least two times in three or better your fielders will make the play on it…..
It also helps you to know that even if a guy gets on base it’s not the end of the world which lets you relax and just do what you do as opposed to going outside of what your capable of merely because you fear the run scoring and costing you a win.
And I didn’t even TOUCH on the affect a good hitting lineup has on a Pitcher and his effectiveness where it is WELL KNOWN that Pitchers with a lead usually pitch much better because they don’t have to fear losing the lead on every pitch.
Believe it or not it IS a TEAM SPORT and the team around you has a great impact on how good you are and for how long!
How long goes directly to those stats you cite…
“I don’t think letting the young starters get kicked in the teeth hurt the Braves too much before they made their run based on young pitching”
Well it did waste a year of thier good pitching that if they had not wasted it could have resulted in winning one more WS when they were the dominant team in Baseball. They didn’t even have the Yankees to stop them the first few years yet all they got was one WS and all those years of CORE didn’t win them anything because they didn’t have the pieces they needed to make them all they could be…
Also some people seem to discount the affect Maddox had on making that Pitching staff what it was….He taught them HOW to pitch as opposed to throw and we don’t really have anyone like that to help Harvey and Wheeler….
Santana maybe but he’s gone at the end of the year….
Hi Metsie,
And with the Braves, they knew their front office was not taking steps to kick them in the teeth but to rather build a ballclub from scratch because the team was bad – it’s not like they had the core of a good one and stripped it away. All they had was Dale Murphy basically.
LOL, same subject different day.
Anyway, the Braves had an older core that had finished 1st in 82 only to see those players slip and slide through 1987. After that the gutting began.
I mean, you think letting Bob Horner go after 1986 was a popular move in Atlanta?
Are you really trying to suggest the Braves (and the Phillies) traded away all thier All Stars (all one of them) to build thier core?
They didn’t dismantle thier team to build a core they were already too old.
They got lots of high Draft picks from that time until thier asendency to playoff caliber team and regardless of how well they did in the regular season were not good enough to win a WS until 1995 and that was the ONLY one they managed to win…
Nope not what I am suggesting.
The Phillies Championship core being built on high draft picks from being bad isn’t exactly accurate
Howard 5th rounder
Utley 1st rounder in 2000 (pick 15)
Rollins 2nd rounder (pick 46)
Victorino Rule 5 2004
Werth free agent 2006
Hamels 1st rounder 2002 after 86 win season (pick 17)
Kendrick 7th rounder
Brett Myers 1999, 1st rounder (12th)
It’s not like they stockpiled top 5 draft pick talent on their way to a title.
What was the draft position in the rounds when they got those guys?
How many were bottom half of a round?
When you pick in the top half or top 10 of a round your essentially getting half a round better players than the rest of the league is…And what doesn’t work out as far as players for you gets traded for those guys you didn’t draft but needed like Halladay, Lee and others…
And pray tell when did Kendric and Meyer become part of the CORE the Phillies built around?
Please yo stretch anymore your likely to snap something…Lets hope it’s just you snapping back to reality….
hey Metsie, so I’m trying to figure this out for you. Are you saying me including more players to try and help your argument was actually a disservice? You said the Phils were built with high picks from being bad so I included a guy like Myers who was a 1st rounder. So since you wish for him and Kendrick to be eliminated
Howard 5th rounder (pick 140)
Utley 1st rounder in 2000 (pick 15)
Rollins 2nd rounder (pick 46)
Victorino Rule 5 2004
Werth free agent 2006
Hamels 1st rounder 2002 after 86 win season (pick 17)
So I still don’t really think your point is valid. Utley and Hamels were picks 15th and 17th, not exactly “Tank” picks, Rollins was a 2nd rounder pick 11 and Howard was an early 5th rounder.
I can’t really see how you can look at the Phils 08-11 playoff runs and say “They got lots of high Draft picks from that time until thier asendency to playoff caliber team”
It’s not like they had top 5 draft picks year after year. In fact when the Phils drafted Hamels, the mets took Kazmir before him
You need to figure this out for yourself…
Like I said Rollins and Howard were all TOP OF ROUND picks….
Thats HALF thier Core….
Hamels and Utley were top half….
And now where (and how high in the rounds) did they get all those players you insist thier farm got them via trades?
Even their FAILED picks kept a modicum of trade value because they were TOP ROUND picks who continued to have the CIELING BA puts so much stock in (and you think teams think the same) to get the players they needed to win a WS?
Victorino was a Rule 5 pick….What pick position did they have to get Victorino before anyone else could?
Where would Cashen have been without 5 Top 5 Picks in the 80′s?
Would there have been a Strawberry and Gooden if not for all the losing?
Would we have had a Brooks and Mazilli to trade without it either?
How long did the Braves suck and collect high round picks to build what they did?
The biggest part of rebuilding is making the most of your draft, and not just in the 1st round but ALL rounds as the Phillies showed with Howard and Rollins, Two players they would be NO WHERE without. Why did they get them? Because they picked High in the rounds they got them and even if someone else saw the potential worth of that round they didn’t have the chance to get them unless they passed on OTHER players many team thought were better than them based on the scouting….
So losing is what helps you rebuild the way the Braves, Phillies and Cashen built….
Cashen is really the ONLY one to trade away any resonable talent to get kids and all he got as gar as kids go is Darling and Terrel, Brooks went for MLB talent and they had to ADD kids to get it.
Where did those kids come from?
Those high positioned rounds they got from being so bad in the win column.
Well Joey they certinly didn’t take a team that was competing in July and trade away the guys who put them there for something 4 year later thats for sure.
Truth is both the Phillies andBraves did it the RIGHT way…they way Cashen did it….
When you find yourself with an awful team THEN you rebuild via the draft, get the best you can find and once they are a year away from being promoted trade what won’t get promoted to get players you need and sign the few guys you haven’t found a solution for!
Of course Maddux had a great influence on them but they were pretty damn good pitchers before he got there.
Glavine had finished 1 and 2 in the CY voting the two years before Maddux even got there.
Smoltz had 35 starts and a 2.85 ERA the year before.
So I would hardly say he was the key to their sustained success.
You seem to forget that what you learn isn’t just evident in the few years he was there….
When guys like Glavine and Smoltz lost thier stuff they remained pretty damn effective and why did they?
Becaue they had the benefit of the teachings of a guy who never had overwhelming stuff or a PLUS PLUS fastball and got guys out by setting them up and moving the ball around which does not require great talent just great knowledge and instincts.
SO all those years they remained top pitchers has a lot to do with what Maddox taught them, Ask any of them and they will agree!
I said
“Of course Maddux had a great influence on them but they were pretty damn good pitchers before he got there.”
So I didn’t forget anything.
They had good stuff….Thats all!
At the time guys like Smoltz were no better than Niese when it comes right down to it.
Smoltz didn’t become a great pitcher until 95…Long after Maddox got there…
Glavine was the only one who was good before Maddux got there winning 20 games….
You could say having Maddox actually hurt him since they both were the same types of throwing crap at you type pitcher.
Salty – “So lets our young pitchers go out there with no chance of winning”
Do you think most Oakland A’s fans said that in January 2012 about guys like Milone, Parker, Griffin, Anderson?
No because most A’s fans are resigned to losing and they know the team will not make significant financial improvements until the get out of that stadium.
See I honestly think that is complete BS. I hate when Mets fans look down at other fan bases as though we are the only ones who expect to win.
The A’s over the prior 10 seasons won an average of 85 games a year and had a stretch from 99-06 of winning at least 87 games.
“most A’s fans are resigned to losing”
That 10 year period is a better 10 year regular season period than the Mets have ever had. So why do you automatically just assume their fans are resigned to losing?
If anything I’d say 8 years of 87+ wins would make you more expecting to turn it around quicker than 3-4 years like we’ve had?
I don’t think you understand what I meant. The team itself has stated they are not doing anything until they get their stadium deal figured out. I am not putting them down I am only stating that the team has been very upfront with their direction and the fans know what to expect during this time period.
Ok so then what do you think their fans expect in 2013?
Well they still know it’s business as usual until the stadium gets figured out. They did make one move to get Young, but besides that it’s pretty quit. So I would say hoping that last year wasn’t a fluke but don’t look for them to capitalize on anything.
Where were most of those guys in 1982 which was the 3rd year of Cashen’s reign? Wilson and Orosco were there…McDowell I believe was in the minors and the rest were still unacquired.
And just as i see the usual suspects defending SA, The Mets have signed outfielder Andrew Brown to minor league contract and spring-training invite. ..
SMH
Interesting name. Don’t know much about him but he did manage a SLG% over .500 the last 3 years in the minors. Last year: .308 .364 .597 .961
I guess even the AAA team needs players.
I guess even the AAA team needs players”
Question is, for which AAA team will he be playing for.. The one in Triple A or the one in the majors..
Good question. I would assume that he is behind Hoffman on the “depth” chart. LOL.
I am actually only counting 10 new players right now. Maybe Elvin Ramirez is counted as “new” because he was temporarily with the Nationals as a Rule V pick.
Besides Zach Wheeler and Travis D´Arnaud, the “biggest” Alderson acquisitions on the 40-man roster are indeed Mike Baxter, Jeremy Hefner and Collin Cowgill for the time being. And of course – gulp – Frank Francisco and John Buck.
Greg Burke looks like a very intriguing recent find.
Anthony Recker´s and Brandon Hicks` roster spots probably are temporary and I doubt they´ll be on the roster permanently.
Of course, the main reason for this situation is that Alderson has mostly handed out shortterm deals under his limited budgets to fill-in players as stopgaps to buy development time for players in the minor league system and being unable and unwilling to hand out longterm contracts.
Also, with a few exceptions, this is a very young 40-man roster, probably one of the youngest in the majors right now. Santana, Francisco, Buck and now since barely a week ago Wright currently are the only players ages 30 or older. Why would a new GM trade away a bunch of young players he inherited if he´s rebuilding and not looking for a quick fix (in which case trading young players for veterans would apply) ??? Just for the sake of action ?
If you expected Alderson to work miracles and discover a totally new market inefficiency that gets you impact major league talent for free, I suppose you should be disappointed.
Likewise if you – ignoring the undisputably severe financial restrictions for a moment – expected Alderson to take a shorter term approach and invest more into runs in 2011 and 2012 while sacrificing young talent. Obviously that was not the case either.
What you see is a somewhat refreshing, albeit boring approach – unlike a lot of GMs – of not trading away most inherited players because they aren´t “your” players. In this case, Alderson & Co. are taking a gradual and dilligent approach and give the inherited players a thorough chance to perform. Maybe also out of financial neccessity but nonetheless.
And keep in mind one of the first statements by the current FO was that the young talent inherited wasn´t nearly as bad as the mainstream media made it sound like.
Still, we´re in the middle of a rebuilding phase that´ll go on for at least another year. With only a few select tradeable commodities on the roster among veterans and no real reason to trade away the better young pieces like Harvey, Niese, Ike Davis or Tejada that would certainly bring significant talent back, change will remain gradual going forward.
And since Howard Johnson & Bob Ojeda were brought up as examples of nice finds by Frank Cashen, HoJo was acquired in Cashen´s 5th off-season, Ojeda even later than Carter in Cashen´s 6th off-season.
“What you see is a somewhat refreshing, albeit boring approach – unlike a lot of GMs – of not trading away most inherited players because they aren´t “your” players. In this case, Alderson & Co. are taking a gradual and dilligent approach and give the inherited players a
thorough chance to perform. Maybe also out of financial neccessity but nonetheless.”
Agreed.
“What you see is a somewhat refreshing, albeit boring approach ”
No, What I see is 3 High paid GMs in our front office whom are tanking it every season on the Major league level for high draft picks.
i keep hearing how this regime is building from within by the draft etc….BUT, can you explain to me 2 things
1. Why did this regime see it fit to shutdown one of there minor league teams only to open it back up the next year??? No, thats not a money issue since the money it takes to run that team was minimal and they re-opened the team the next season. If youre broke you dont repurchase the team the next year. Thats a move made when you come to the realization that you screwed up
2. Why did this team fail to sign HALF there draft class??? Including there 2nd rd pick whom was highly ranked and all he wanted was slot money. And obviously wanted to go pro since he decided to join a juco team instead of Arkansas so he would be eligible this coming year.
Rebuilding teams dont make moves like this yet you expect other Mets fans to view this as REFRESHING?
ALSO….
“unlike a lot of GMs – of not trading away most inherited players because they aren´t “your” players.”
This isnt the NFL where rosters get flipped drastically what MLB GM totally overhauled there team upon being hired? Not to mention Every player that was eligible for free agency or highly regarded by other teams via trade this regime has let go. They only player they have retained was Wright and thats due to Jeff Wilpon, Niese just had his arb years bout out and even he is dangled in trades every year since the extension. Do you notice how many ex Padres or from Alderson/Depo’s/Ricciardi former teams players they drafted with other regimes that they have acquired since they joined the Mets…..Chin lun-Hu, Hairston, Baxter, Dykstra, Young, Eamus, Hefner etc….most of the players we’ve acquired which are Quad A guys are there former players.
Well again, I think the lack of signing half the draft class is over dramatizing for the sake of being angry.
Teams literally do this all the time. You can’t pass on a draft pick so what happens if you like the 2013 potentials more than the 2012? You only have a certain # of roster spots in the minors right? In 2011 they signed 74% of their picks. How come that is never mentioned?
You have to put these kids somewhere don’t you? In 2010 the Red Sox let 29 draft picks go unsigned… then followed 2011 by signing more. I can find you countless examples of this to be honest.
I think people like to mention the draft signings just because it looks bad if you remove any logical context from it.
I think it was a very concerted effort to focus on IFA where they had a place to put them and close down the single A team to save money. I also think that when they brought that firm in most likely they looked at the extra team that almost no one has and asked why the hell you got one of those. So they closed it for a year, signed a bunch of IFA, didn’t sign many draft picks and then opened it up for the next year when those IFA might need somewhere to play.
Hi Joe and Happy New Year.
Love Dave Searles’ analogy ““rope-a-dope”, calling it a “strategy of rebuilding the farm system from the bottom up while allowing the major league team to flounder indefinitely.”
Have always been asking if the major league team Sandy inherited was so bad that it had no choice but to flounder while the farm system was being built up. The answer is obviously no. Not with Beltran/Pagan/Bay/Duda in the outfield. Not with Wright/Reyes/Davis in the infield. Not with a Josh Thole who showed promise as a catcher and a hitter the second half of the 2010 season.. Not with KRod, Takahashi, Parnell and Acosta in the bullpen. Not with Dickey and Neise as starters and what appeared to be a Mike Pelfrey finally coming around plus a Dillon Gee who showed promise in his late season callup. Those guys needed to be supplemented not by superstar caliber players but not by those of Carasco, Young, Capuano, Boyer, Harris, Hu either.
The way he dismantled what he had goes beyond trying to return fiscal responsibility to the way the ball club was being run – that could be done gradually in stages over a period of years. Instead, it went off the cliff. And if one wants to argue that Sandy Alderson had no choice because the Mets suddenly found themselves going off the cliff due to the Madoff scheme, then, OK. But his actions based on as a baseball strategy – well, would anyone here feel bad starting out with the core of players mentioned above circa 2011?
And building up a farm system is no vision – it’s the necessary lifeline of all teams – either as future stars or trading chips.
Sandy Alderson’s job was to get the Mets to avoid bankruptcy. I don’t know if he has indeed gotten the Wilpon’s franchise on better financial footng or that the steps he had taken was so short-term in focus that they will cause bakruptcy to inevitably occur. Or perhaps all he did was to cause the market value of the club not to sink as deeply as it could for eventually selling of majority shares.
I said this last year when Francesa had his rant about what the Mets and it still applies today. Up until now if you look at what has transpired the Mets are allowing time for players down on the farm and in the Bigs to grow & develop while also awaiting to get out from under some contracts. Other than the Wright and Niese contracts no player has been signed for anything longer than a 2 year deal. What remains to be seen is will the end result to this approach prove to be successful and by successful I mean a W.S. ring.
What remains to be seen is will the end result to this approach prove to be successful and by successful I mean a W.S. ring”
Yeap, because the FO phylosophy that has result on many WS rings will be the same result for us too… SMGDH
Your neck must hurt from all the shaking your head is doing.
Hahahaa
TX, well, yes to be honest.. It’s really sad and pathetic to be a mets fans this day, all we can do is shake our heads and not going to the games… What else can we do?
I’d expect you to feel that way. You have made your thoughts quite clear and when you have directed those thoughts toward me I always tell you the same thing.
I just don’t share your thoughts.
Is anyone else surprised that Havens is still on the 40 man roster?
Task, with the POS’s we’ve brought in lately, doesn’t surprise me at all… The guy can hit, just can’t stay healthy… He’s the white fernando martinez… Talent but often injured.
Hats off to Salty today….He pretty much said in reply what I would have pointed out…..
So I’ll just add my two cents here to Dave’s piece…
He looked at the 40 Man ratio but the truth of what has been accomplished lay in the 25 Man and starters….(Dave did mention this but did not elaborate)
If the season opened today the likely starting lineup would include:
Tejada – Inherited
Wright – Inherited but re-signed
Davis – Inherited
Murphy -Inherited
Duda – Inherited
Kirk – Inherited
Valdesoin – Inherited
Cowgill – Signed
Buck – Traded
With a rotation of:
Santana – Inherited
Niese – Inherited
Gee – Inherited
Harvey – Inherited
And either
Mejia – Inherited
Wheeler – Trade or PTBNL – FA Signing
Thats a 2 out of 9 Sandy built and one is a Platoon (OF at best) the Other is a placeholder for another Sandy player d’Arnaud, and one is not really expected until Mid Season unless he blows away ST and makes Sandy rush him before he wants to due to control of player reasons.
Thats a pretty poor showing for someone who claims he is rebuilding the MLB team….
Even if d’Arnaud and Wheeler start off the year (unlikely to say the least)
The Ratio really doesn’t change much does it? One Inherited Pitcher gets replaced and one of his other acquisitions tgets replaced by one of the guys that was part of the package we traded to get him.
SO in three years (Offseasons) all we have actually managed to do was find a Catcher and a Platoon OFer. You can’t really say Wheeler is an improvement unless he is coming in and winning a Cy Young because we inherited one of those and gave him away to get the Catcher!
And once d’Arnaud and Wheeler are here how does that MiL system we claim to be rebuilding actually look? Any better than it was when Sandy got here?
Why because of Nimmo and Ceccini? Really? Those two have saved the Farm?
I find it odd that anyone can say Sandy is building a Core when all he has added so far are Two players niether of which has an MLB start to his name and as soon as they get promoted the Farm looks pretty much the way it did when he got here SAVE the kids we had then that we have since promoted to build the team with.
ANyone can sign 11 Guys in 3 years of work to fill out a 40 man but if those guys never fill a starting role all you did was fill the Bench and with the guys they have targeted it’s difficult to say they even improved that considering most of the guys they have signed in the last three years all hit as well and Mario Mendoza….