28
2013
Mets Are Going To “Half & Half” It In 2013
An article by 
During an interview Sunday with MLB Network Radio, Sandy Alderson expressed that the loss of a first-round pick would be too steep a price for him to consider signing Michael Bourn, who is the best outfielder left on the free-agent market.
The Mets GM also confirmed that his plan for 2013 is to have one foot in “rebuild mode” and the other foot in “win now mode”.
“The blueprint here is to rebuild the farm system at the same time that we try to be competitive. For us to lose the first round pick would be a counter to that approach.”
“On the other hand, we have added significantly to our minor league system with the trade of R.A. Dickey and the acquisition of Zack Wheeler last year. So, the farm system is in much better shape than it had been. And so, we are in a position to at least consider the possibility of losing a draft pick. But at the same time, we are very reluctant to do so.”
Sandy is absolutely right, the farm system is in better shape than it had been.
But of course the major league squad is in worse shape than it had been… And for the third straight year…
Just saying…
“THE 2013 PLAN”
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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“The blueprint here is to rebuild the farm system at the same time that we try to be competitive.”
The part left out was while trying to get out from under some contracts. The team at the end of 2012 was not at a all in point. The Mets lost 88 games.
I agree that I want sustainability, and a strong minor league system is needed for that. Now, that said, I think Bourne can be a solution for the next 4 years, so to me, that’s not sacrificing the future. Does it impact, the draft, yeah, but the purpose of the draft is to supply the major league squad. Bourn does that now.
Exactly. There is not enough OF product in the system to fill 2 spots (or 3 if Duda fades). If one of Vaughn, denDekker, or Puello makes it, then they could play RF. Next year’s FA class isn’t great, and trades deplete the system of semi-developed product. Bourn is a piece that fills some major needs and makes the team more exciting to watch, and thus maybe a little more marketable. And signing him would have a nearly 100% chance of improving the team for the next 3 years, while a draft pick has a 20-30% chance of improving the team starting in 4 years, give or take.
“There is not enough OF product in the system to fill 2 spots”
Defensively from all accounts MDD can play CF in the Bigs right now but as far as finding that right handed bat that can play RF I am thinking how long before maybe a Juan Lagares gets a look in 2013?
Players have to hit too. MDD hasn’t yet shown that he can hit at AAA. Lagares is probably a 4th OF.
Agreed on MDD and add Lagares to that as well since he has yet to play in AAA. If MDD and for that matter Lagares gets off to a good start though at AAA don’t be surprised if their names start to pop up as options. Especially if the OF in the bigs is in need of it.
and s desperate as we are, i’m beginning to think we should give MDD a shot this year. He plays best CF in our system…big league club included…and he does have some power & speed.
Yes, Juan Lagares is an interesting prospect. By all accounts, he can hit & field & he has some speed. He doesn’t ‘profile’ as a RF bat…aka with ‘pop’, but this is the Mets’ 2013 Edition. He may have to do.
How much worse off is the major league squad now than before Sandy got here?
In the two years since Sandy’s been here, the Mets have won 151 games. In the two years prior to his arrival, the Mets won 149 games. No evidence that it has been worse. And the farm system is definitely better now.
Overall it’s been a net gain for Sandy, even if modest. And considering the small amount of money he’s had to work with, it’s an accomplishment.
Both the team and the Mets finances were a humongous mess when Sandy got here. I think things have improved and are looking up.
Numbers and stats are great you can do anything with them. Why not compare Alderson’s first three offseason’s against himself? Why not compare Alderson’s first two seasons to Minaya’s first two? I see people complain like crazy here whenever someone compares Minaya to Sandy. Numbers and stats are great. You can manipulate them to prove or disprove anything. But if you think the Mets’ major league team is better than last year’s version, than I really can’t take anything you say seriously. Even my 10-year old can see that.
Not sure what you mean when you say to compare Alderson’s first three seasons against himself. And why would you compare Alderson’s first two seasons with Minaya’s first two when Minaya had roughly 50 million to spend each of the first few winters he was Mets GM while Sandy had peanuts?
Sandy inherited the 2009-2010 teams. Not the 2005-2006 team. If he had inherited the 2005-2006 team, then maybe you can compare 2011-2012 with those years.
If he inherits the 2005 team there is no Pedro Martinez, no Carlos Beltan and in 2006 I highly doubt he goes after Carlos Delgado so we’re talking about an entirely different team that we have no idea what would’ve happened. Most likely not the level of success they had with Omar.
If Sandy had inherited the 2005 team — plus a HUGE wallet to spend like Omar had — then maybe he doesn’t put together a team in 2006 as successful as Omar’s was. But then maybe he doesn’t bankrupt the teams in the following years with unproductive expensive contracts and injury prone players either. And maybe the farm system instead of being mediocre-at-best in 2011 is an asset that has the Mets winning more games in 2011 and 2012. Because he wouldn’t have surrendered so many early round draft picks the way Omar did without replacing them with other picks returned through arbitration.
Dude you got no game. Omar had success here and Sandy has not. Talk to me when Sandy produces what Omar did here in New York.
That’s the bottom line. Winning. Omar left Sandy with a decent roster and if Sandy was as smart as Omar in evaluating players the team would have a better roster by now ready to compete and make MONEY no matter what the resources are. There is no 2006-2008 run if Sandy was there.
Dude, you’re hallucinating on LSD. Sandy has only been here for two seasons, so it’s too soon to say how he should be judged. But Omar had 6 seasons with the Mets, always had big bucks to spend in the offseason, always had the top 1 or 2 payrolls in the NL, if not all of baseball, and only got the Mets to the postseason one lousy time! Big woopty-doo! Moreover, he neglected the farm system and left it relatively shallow and bare, a condition which had really hurt the Mets as the cash has fallen low due to Madoff and other financial issues.
Omar was bad for the Mets and will never have a GM job in baseball again. No one will ever trust him with that type of budget again.
He didn’t neglect the farm and it wasn’t shallow and bare. That’s just not true and a flat out lie.
Matt Harvey, Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, Lucas Duda, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee, Bobby Parnell, Jordany Valdespin, Capt. Kirk, MDD, Wilmer Flores come from a neglected and shallow farm system?
You’re a flat out liar.
Yes, Omar did neglect the farm system. He gave up early round picks left and right without regard to getting them back by acquiring players he could offer arbitration to when they left. That is how Cashman and Epstein signed free agents but were able to get draft picks back.
And I said “RELATIVELY” shallow. Look at the depth with outfielders and catchers when Sandy got here, and the situation was pitiful! Downright pitiful! The situation with pitching and infielders was just OK. Not anything to write home about.
LOL, you are an even bigger LIAR, then!
We don’t know how the OF stands yet because Capt Kirk, Juan Lagares, Jordany Valdespin, Lucas Duda, MDD have not developed fully yet as major leaguers so the we have no answer on the OF yet. Who knows maybe one or more of those guys gets traded to help net the Mets a major league ready OFer until one of those other guys can contribute.
So you’re full of shit again.
As for catcher, i’m not gonna complain otherwise it would be about you complaining that almost every major league starter now should be from the farm. Omar did well enough. You can’t have stars developing at every position, which is what YOU want, otherwise it would be a fantastic job of handling the farm while spending money in New York when winning is at your doorstep. If Omar was able to do what you’re asking as far as farm and winning then for him to have your blessing he would have had to get into the post season from 2006-2008 AND have one of the best farm systems ever.
Bayonne, sure you don’t know how those players will develop. But the point is, Omar failed to develop a single OF or catching prospect of any real value. Not one so far.
Omar would get a better grade from his critics if not for all the older over-the-hill players he was so fond of getting … if not for the foolish contracts he inked (he was the worst negotiator on the face of the planet) … and if not for the neglect he had for the farm system.
No, he didn’t need to get into the postseason every year. All he had to do was not waste all the money he did and mortgage the future. And, you are full of it. .
“Bayonne, sure you don’t know how those players will develop. But the point is, Omar failed to develop a single OF or catching prospect of any real value. Not one so far.”
So you’re saying no one knows how those OFers will develop and at the same time you’re saying he failed to develop a single OF.
Which is it? Also while he’s signing these potential OFers for the future he’s overseeing a currently (at that time) contending team HE built.
“Omar would get a better grade from his critics if not for all the older over-the-hill players he was so fond of getting”
Whatever over the hill players you’re talking contributed to the success and run of those teams in contention. Which over the hill players were responsible for the Mets losing big games from 2006-2008? Glavine? I liked him starting that game too and nobody could have predicted whether he would pitch a shutout or get rocked. He got rocked. That’s baseball so STOP SECOND GUESSING.
That’s all you’re doing. Every single point you are making is based on second guessing.
That’s all you clowns do. You, DrDooby, taskmaster (t agee), peter, etc. All your points are based on blaming the executives for the failures of the 2006-2008 run and not the players on the field. And some clown (i think it was the parrot) said the other day “der, well he should’ve gotten players shouldn’t have failed” not in those exact words, but close. Now if that’s not the epitome of 2nd guessing I don’t know what is.
All you guys do is look back years later and BLAME the executives. You guys can’t bear to put the blame on the players who choked or the teams that beat the Mets out in those crucial, crucial 2006 post season games and 2007/08 collapses.
Those potential successful destinies? Their success or failure was decided on the ball field by a very good baseball team with very good players who were more than athletically capable of getting the job done if fair and square competition.
They LOST.
Yet, you guys are blaming the FO years later instead of the looking at the games.
You guys all you do is read about contracts, the minors, and years later figure out what could have been done, who should not have been dealt, and who should have been drafted based on nothing but after-the-fact second guessing after the team lost those games.
Shame on you for believing in the legitimacy of your own second guessing.
No, he didn’t need to get into the postseason every year. All he had to do was not waste all the money he did and mortgage the future. And, you are full of it. .
*ignore last paragraph, those are Messtro12′s words and I forgot to remove them after copying and pasting his post in order to address his points easier instead of scrolling up.
So you’re saying no one knows how those OFers will develop and at the same time you’re saying he failed to develop a single OF
Read my comment again, Bayonne. I said “SO FAR.” Omar had 6 years as GM and SO FAR not a single successful legit OF has come out of the farm system.
“…he’s overseeing a currently (at that time) contending team HE built.”
LOL, just one postseason appearance. Two crushing September chokes. And a weak farm system. Big woopty-doo. You’re free to salivate over Omar’s meager achievements. Just don’t expect others to.
As for his over-the-hill players whose injuries or lack of performance hurt the Mets — there was Pedro, Alou, Delgado and Wagner, Franco, Sheffield to name a few.
And it’s ludicrous to blame the players. It’s the GM who chooses the players and it’s the owners who pay for them. They are both to blame when a team is poorly constructed. It’s not Ollie’s fault that he sucked. That’s him. It’s Omar’s fault for giving a sucky pitcher a big 3-year deal like he did.
And, no a lot of this definitely is NOT second guessing. At least not for me. I’ve been an Omar critic almost from the get go. I never liked his AARP strategy. I hated his choice of Randolph from the beginning. But most of all, I hated his neglect of the farm system which was apparent in Montreal and which came to fruition in NY. (And, yes, I know there was some threat of a contraction in Montreal, but that doesn’t totally excuse his poor trades and destruction of their farm system.) And you are even more full of it!
Duda? MDD? Kirk?
If they are so great, how come almost every article on this site talks about how much the Mets OF sucks?
Ironic you want to defend Omar when it is obvious there were no catchers anywhere to be found (the best he could come up with was Thole), no OFs from the farm, the 2B is a converted 3B by way of LF and 1B. The BP has relied on hired guns because other than Parnell, there were no arms who could pitch in the majors in the last 4 years. And the team had to use a minor league/ST invite to back up short after Tejada and Turner went down. Oh, and how come Alderson had to sign Lucas May, Johnson, Recker, and the other guy this offseason? Because if he didnt, there would have been no catchers at AAA? So in 6 years, plus the couple since he left, Omar could not develop a AAA catcher?
That is what he means by a naked farm system.
Prospects > Winning. That’s the trendy thing now in Flushing.
Omar inherited the 2003 and 2004 teams…..ded last both years. What are you talking about
He also was getting Wright and Reyes…two elite level young players who recently made their debuts and he was essentially given a blank check from ownership to go out an buy whomever he wanted.
and Omar was able to sign Wright & Reyes to 2 very team-friendly contracts. You guys don’t like to be reminded of that. Omar had some good contract signings too and Wright & Reyes are 2 of them. Too bad they lost big games in 2007-2008 and since they did now you guys can point out his bad contract signings that mostly occurred afterwords.
Yes, those were good moves by Omar. They were also common sense…much like the move Sandy made to sign Niese. And we talk about the more recent bad moves b/c those moves that resulted in a team with a 130-something mil payroll who weren’t contenders was a big part of the reason the team lost so much money, and was put into such a bad state. It’s a big part of the reason Omar lost his job.
No the team was not a humongous mess before Sandy got here. Sure finances were not the best but that has to do with the Madoff scandal and any expensive contract Omar signed was mostly after the 2006-2008 run so spending money on contracts had nothing to do with affecting the 2006-2008 run.
And in 2009 EVERYBODY, the backups and the backups to the backups were injured so you can’t count 2009. Remember before that season the Mets were picked by SA to go to the post season or win the World Series or something like that. Than everybody got hurt in the worst year of injuries i’ve ever seen any sports franchise have.
You selectively forget to remember that.
2010 had major injuries too but Beltran came back in the 2nd half and the team simply stopped hitting so no real big excuses there. But there is an excuse for 2009.
And Alderson inherited a very good minors and he inherited a roster that was not far from competing in 2011 but he, in my opinion, neglected to improve the roster even w/the “alleged” little money he had.
So stop kissing this guy’s butt and stop hating anybody who had any contribution to any Mets successes before Sandy got here.
*picked by SI
Johan: 22.5
Bay: 18.1
Ollie: 12
Castillo: 6.3
Total: 59 million dollars tied up in players who contributed virtually ZILCH to the Mets in 2011. You don’t call that a big stinkin’ MESS?
Can you name another team that year which had so much money tied up in so many large and unproductive contracts?
In terms of 2009 and injuries, well a lot of the injuries were due to Omar’s tendencies to acquire a lot of older and/or injury-prone players. Injuries are part of the game. But Omar exacerbated the risk with the type of players he would go after. IOW, players who were almost in wheelchairs!
And, no, the farm system was NOT “very good” as you put it. It was mediocre at best and more fairly described as slightly below that.
Oh so the 2009 injuries were Omar’s fault? Dude you know you’re making yourself look like a JACKASS with that ridiculously stupid comment.
The farm was not as bad as you put it and most people know that so you’re exaggerating again there. And your response to the contracts is SECOND GUESSING AFTER THE FACT.
So you’re not credible, you’re unfair, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re spinning things to favor your sugar daddy. And he IS your sugar daddy for anybody to like a guy who’s viturally done nothing yet but you hate all people responsible for past Mets successes.
You’re a fraud dude. What do you do? Lick your monitor in an orgasmic frenzy whenever this site posts a photo of Alderson? Which seems like almost every day now?
You’re so dishonest and blatantly inaccurate about the facts of Omar’s administration, about a time when you should have been happy i can’t help believe that you fall into the category of bitter mets fan who simply can’t get over the fact that they had their opportunities for 3 straight years from 2006-2008 but unfortunately THEY LOST THE GAMES they had to win but you blame everybody except who should have been blamed for those 3 years shortcomings – THE PLAYERS.
Take a hike.
I never said ALL the injuries were due to Omar’s penchant for players in wheelchairs. What I said is that when you go with older players, your risk for injuries is much higher. And injuries also take longer to heal than with younger players. And if you don’t know that the older the player, the higher the risk for injury, then you were born yesterday and are simply displaying your idiocy.
The farm system was NOT “very good” as you put it. Talk about blinders! It was –as I said — mediocre at best. Find me anyone with any semblance of objectivity who said the Mets farm system in 2011 was better than middle-of-the-pack. I can find you some who said it was a lot worse than that.
LMFAO — I hate all people responsible for the Mets past successes. LOLOLOLOL!!
I love the job Cashen did in the early 80s. I like the job Phillips did up until 2001. And Omar didn’t do a terrible job when he first became Mets GM. It’s just that he had no plan and went overboard with the bad contracts … and also neglected the farm system. I have said it before and I’ll say it again. Omar wasn’t terrible. He was just terribly mediocre.
You really love to exaggerate based on nothing but your own biased blind opinions. You’re the one who is a total fraud. And you are the one who needs to take a hike off short pier!
And you are absolutely totally wrong about SECOND GUESSING AFTER THE FACT. Especially when it came to Ollie and Castillo, I absolutely hated those contracts at the time they were inked.
And it’s irrelevant to the point being made whether anyone is second guessing. The point remains, Sandy inherited a freakin’ mess when he got here.
You’ve created and have waged a straw man argument all because you refuse to admit the MLB roster is worse than the 2012 version?
You win the award for the worst argument of the new year. Congratulations.
Why not just stop pushing your agenda and simply discuss the offseason in the context of whether we improved the team or made it worse?
There is no need to to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the facts which still remain facts whether you agree with them or not. We are all adults here.
What’s the strawman argument? Joe D. said that the ML team is worse than when Sandy arrived. But the ML team was coming off of TWO losing years when he arrived, and Sandy’s teams have actually won more games his first two years than the teams the two previous years did before he arrived.
They don’t play the games on paper. All that matters is wins and losses when you’re talking about the ML club. Right? So it remains to be seen how 2013 nets out. You can call it worse on paper now if you want, but it’s irrelevant. Let’s see how the season unfolds and whether there are substantial improvements or not on the field in terms of wins and losses.
You don’t see how this team is less talented than it was before?
He has added nothing significant to the major league roster, and subtracted three all stars in Reyes, Beltran, Dickey, and one nice complimentary player in Pagan.
The fact that the Mets had worse overall records in 2009 & 2010 is skewed by 2009 where three of the players I mentioned above(Reyes, Beltran, and Pagan) missed significant time on the DL, and the other(Dickey) wasn’t a Met that year.
Outrageous as that may seem, the answer is yes. That is exactly what Metro12 is doing. And the more he insists on it the worse he makes himself look. It’s very hard to see anything in him but an agenda he will do anything to push and defend including manipulating a GM with a Win-Now situation to whatever you want to call this one. That’s why I rarely comment on this site, because it wreaks with agenda driven diatribes. The same people that complain when you compare Minaya to Alderson, are the same people who always initiate that line of fire.
Hmmm … didn’t I read something where Joe D. didn’t want people to accuse others of having an “agenda?” I mean, you see one in me, but I definitely see one in YOU and those spouting your opinions. LOL. Behave!
It’s also funny that the only ones who seem to go on these agenda-driven rants and diatribes, getting their panties all in a bunch with frequency, are the anti-Alderson folk.
Metro12, I haven’t spouted any opinions today, only showed why yours were not based on sound logic and pointed to something else.
He also asked posters to stop calling people insane and loonies or in need of medication but that hasn’t stopped you has it?
Well, roxio, it’s clear where you stand. Regardless, you surely aren’t adding anything of value to the conversation, then. And I thought Joe D was trying to clean up the forums from messy comments like yours???????
And it’s YOUR side that ALWAYS starts it, metsie. So practice what you preach.
Oh Bull this is the first I have gone off my policy of ignoring your tripe and I only responded because I opened my email and saw in my sub notifications you calling out people and being insulting
Examples:
“You’re the one who is a total fraud. And you are the one who needs to take a hike off short pier!”
“Dude, you’re hallucinating on LSD”
“you are an even bigger LIAR”
Yep you keep right on going dude….And you keep citing that Guideline post!
We all are hoping it gets inforced and you are forced to take your Childish rantings elsewhere…Or at least wind up in moderation…
Those quotes wee taken directly from your posts….
You want to deny that?
The only one who is immature here is you…
You prove that post after post….
Continue…I am back to ignoring the children.
And as I said Metsie, YOUR side started it first. You want me to point out Bayonne’s posts were he threw the mud first? Do I really need to do that? You are the one who is immature.
My side? please post the time stamp of my insult of you before you broke out the tired old adderall joke you always use, No one else gets because your probably the only one here who knows about it because your ON IT!
Get over yourself…
I don’t have a side….You insulted me before I insulted you…
And with your BRILLIANT understanding of the commetary guidelines that entitles me to say whatever the hell I want to you without penalty….
Well I bet JoeD has a much different interpretation…..Shall we ask him?
Yeah right.. Insulted myself first……OK…
MEDIC!!!!!!
No, at 1:48 PM you insulted me first. And you know it. It’s what you ALWAYS do. Call for the medic for yourself. You need it.
“1:48 PM
You get over yourself, metsie. ”
Thats what insulted you? Something YOU said?
MEDIC!!!!!
Post the insult there just playing the fool again!
1:48 PM. Your comment.
And unless you’re talking to yourself, it’s clear what you were doing.
Dial 911, metsie. The medic to help you will come sooner!
So you ant quote the insult…Because like everything else it was a figment of your imagination…
LOL, OF COURSE I can quote it. But you are the one who wrote it. Why should I repeat your juvenile remarks that goes against Joe D’s posting policy? It’s right down below.
1:48 PM.
1:48 PM
Need that time again?
Then quote it or be called a liar!
Here was yours at 1:04PM….Beofre my alleged insult from MY side…)
Author: Metro12
Comment:
Dude, you’re hallucinating on LSD
You do seem rather obsessed with drugs dude…You must be on quite the regimen including that drug you keep telling me to take that no one but someone who is ON it has ever heard of!
What’s the matter? Can’t read a time stamp now? It’s 1:48 PM.when you first starting throwing personal insults around.
And now you’re throwing back an insult I hurled at Bayonne in response to his FIRST insult? LOL. You have issues staying on point.
I only threw mud at you because you hurled it first at me. And I only threw mud at Bayonne because he hurled it first at me. Capiche?
Ahh IC timestamp insulted you…Must be you can’t produce the insult….
(Probably because it never existed in the first place….
I provided you with your insult AND timestamp….
You seem to have trouble proving any insult was made at all…
Cause it was a figment of your imagination!
What, LOL? Translate that into standard English, please? You’re distinctly incomprehensible there!
But just because you’re so lost, here is your insult made in your 1:48 PM post:
“More bull from you… SO yes your just making crap up because you really have nothing to support your propagandist view”
That’s what you said and that’s against Joe’s D policy! Leave it up to metsie to deny her own transgressions!
You thought that was outside guidelines?
I trashed what you said I didn’t trash you….
You then told me to go take whatever medication it is your on since your the only one who knows what that is…
Nope. You didn’t trash what I said., You’re incapable of doing so,. That’s why you always resort to personal insults. Because you have no legit answers. And you do it with everyone else here too. .
You’re so biased you can’t even see when you’re breaking Joe D’s guidelines.
You don’t see how Buck/d’Arnaud are a HUGE improvement over Thole/Nickeas? Or how Wheeler has the potential to be huge improvement over Hefner/Schwinden/McHugh who the Mets had to use last year to fill in? Or how Ike should be improved over last year when he was rusty due to a year-long layoff? Or how Duda should be better in LF than RF, and how the team improved by subtracting Bay? Or how Santana should be stronger than last season?
Of course the team has holes, but it’s a big unknown how the 2013 team will play out — with TWO elite prospects slated to make their debuts and other changes from 2012. Most everyone thought the Marlins were going to be world beaters last season, and they stunk. Most everyone thought Oakland would end up with fewer wins than the Mets and they made the playoffs.
There are too many unknowns to pretend to predict the outcome of the 2013 Mets.
Do you think that two rookies can replace the production of three all stars and Pagan? I don’t.
Do you realize that most of the players you are talking about as improvements all come from Omar Minaya? You mention Ike, Duda, and Santana, when they all were brought in by Minaya.
That talent was already here before Alderson arrived.
Are they ahugmprovemnt over Beltran and Dickey who we had to give up to get them?
This seems to be your problem here….
You think they were FREE and they cost PLENTY!
Vinny, are we not talking about the 2013 team relative to 2012? AFAIK, the Mets only lost one all-star this winter, and Pagan was traded after 2011!
Ike, Duda, and Santana are just 3 areas where the club stands to improve in 2013. The BIGGEST improvements stand to come from Wheeler and d’Arnaud.
And does it really matter where the 2013 players come from? The idea is to put together a winning team, whether the players come from old GM, new GM, free agency, the Rule V, whatever. Just put together a winning combo without sacrificing the future — that’s all I care about.
More garbage from Metro,
“Ike, Duda, and Santana are just 3 areas where the club stands to improve in 2013. The BIGGEST improvements stand to come from Wheeler and d’Arnaud. ”
What if the biggest improvements come from Ike Davis, Duda, & Santana? What if all 3 have suprisingly good years while Wheeler and d’Arnaud do “okay” what if they just develop at a relatively normal pace while the other 3 crank it up?
Putting all of your eggs on d’Arnaud and Wheeler much? What about the friggin MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER!
Bayonne — We’re talking about improvements from 2012. The 2013 Mets teams stands to improve in various ways over 2012 — not just with Ike, Duda, or Johan or TDA, or Wheeler. Not sure why you’re getting so emotional over this! LOL.
No one is putting all their eggs in one basket. I think they’ll see a lot of improvements. For example, just having Gee an entire season should be an improvement over his replacements last year. And the subtraction of Bay is a big improvement!
Who cares who improves more? The point is, there are a lot of areas where you can point to and say the 2013 club should be better than the 2012 one.
No, we are comparing the talent on the team now compared to the talent on the team when Alderson first took over.
Ike, Duda, and Santana were all here when Alderson first took over, so they don’t help your argument.
And Wheeler and D’Araund are only rookies, so it’s extremely unlikely that they can match the production of the three all stars this team subtracted.
Metro, this is your first comment on this thread:
“How much worse off is the major league squad now than before Sandy got here?”
This is the point I’m responding to. The 2012 team compared to the 2013 team is irrelevant.
Vinny, I was comparing 2013 players with 2012 ones. Sure, Ike, Duda and Santana help my argument which was that the 2013 team has areas where you can expect improvement from 2012. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect that each of those 3 will be at least a little better in 2013 than in 2012. Those 3, along with other areas of the team that stand to improve (ie, Wheeler, d”Arnaud/Buck), make the 2013 team’s chances not as bad as some make them out to be. That is MY argument.
Vinny, here’s my point:
“How much worse off is the major league squad now than before Sandy got here?”
Now what’s the only true way to determine that? Results. Wins-losses. Right? So you judge the results of Sandy’s first two years with the previous two years before he got to the Mets. And the Mets fared no worse under Sandy.
As for 2013, my point is that the jury is still out because the season has yet to be played out. BUT if you look at the 2013 team in comparison to 2012, then there are a lot of areas that stand to be improved upon, so I think the predictions of doom and gloom from the chicken little pessimists are weak.
“That is MY argument.”
But that’s not the argument I was responding to.
“Now what’s the only true way to determine that? Results. Wins-losses. Right? ”
I already addressed that point:
“The fact that the Mets had worse overall records in 2009 & 2010 is skewed by 2009 where three of the players I mentioned above(Reyes, Beltran, and Pagan) missed significant time on the DL, and the other(Dickey) wasn’t a Met that year.”
But that is the argument that I am making.
And you can’t use injuries as an excuse because to a large extent, injuries are a calculated risk taken when you sign older players. And the 2009 team tanked also because of injuries to Wagner and Delgado.
Also, if you excuse the 2009 team, then you have to excuse the 2011 and 2012 teams which suffered injuries to Wright, Reyes, Johan (totally absent in 2011; partially in 2012), Ike, Duda, and Gee.
I’m not arguing with you about the 2012 team compared to the 2013 team. I have not made one point about that, so I don’t know why you are bringing that point up to me. I actually agree with a few of the points you were making about Ike and Santana, but that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about the talent on the team now compared to what it was when Alderson took over. I’m arguing that it the talent is significantly worse because we lost three all stars and Pagan, and we have not adequately replaced them.
Wheeler and D’Araund are awesome prospects, but it would be foolish to think that they can replace the talent of Reyes, Beltran and Dickey. MAYBE someday in the future they could, but not now. And Buck? He’s a bum – hit sub .200 last year.
Vinny, what’s the point about arguing about 2013 talent vs 2010 talent when …
1) The 2010 talent didn’t do all that well. They had a sub-.500 record. Does it matter if on paper they (to you) appear to be better than this year’s talent when they were essentially a failure?
2) Some of the talent on the 2010 team was destined to be off the team by this year. Beltran’s and K-Rod’s contracts were expiring and Reyes was to become a free agent and wanted “crawford money.”
3) The resources Sandy has had to work with pale in comparison to the huge wallet Omar had to spend.
But again, what’s the point? Wait till the 2013 season plays out. I have a feeling they will end up with a better record than the 2010 team.
“The 2010 talent didn’t do all that well. ”
Because a lot of the talent wasn’t healthy. Reyes battled the thyroid condition in ST, and just when it looked like he was getting back to his normal self, he went on the DL with an another injury. He was not 100% for most of the year. He was hitting in the low .200′s well into May, and a lot of us here on MMO were saying how much slower he looked than usual.
Beltran missed almost the whole season, and was rusty when he came back. I think if those two guys were 100%, it would have changed the whole complexion of the season. Just look at how they played the following year, it’s obvious they weren’t playing to the best of their abilities.
The pitching that season excelled. If their two best players on offense were healthy for most of the season, there’s no doubt in my mind that they would have been competitive.
And your 2nd and 3rd points don’t matter in this discussion. Who cares if Omar had more resources? That doesn’t prove the team now is not less talented. And it doesn’t matter if those players were going to be future FA’s. All that matters is that they are not here now, and they haven’t been adequately replaced.
Sorry, Vinny, but if you’re going to pull the “health” card out for Omar, then we can pull it for Sandy too. So you either use it for both sides or neither. What is it?
As for my 2nd and 3rd points, fine. Take them out. But then the ONLY thing that really matter is wins-losses, right? And so the 2013 season hasn’t played out yet. No one knows what will happen., But I predict that they will at least have more wins than the 2010 team. All while Sandy had a lesser budget to work with.
Also, if the 2013 team does wind up having a better record than the 2010 team, it would probably because of the young talent the Mets had during that time stepping up and playing big roles on the team.
When did I say injuries didn’t count for Sandy? I never did. If you are talking about the injuries to the 2011 team, you might be glad to know that I have brought that up on numerous occasions in the past. But they are irrelevant here because for like the 1000th time, I’m not talking about the 2011 or 2012 teams. I’m only talking about the 2013 team compared to the talent we had when Sandy first took over. That’s it. I don’t care if in 2011 the entire starting team went on the DL – What happened that year doesn’t matter.
All that matters is the 2013 talent VS the talent when Sandy 1st got here.
Vinny, I am talking about the injuries to BOTH the 2011 and 2012 teams.
And they are relevant. Because despite what point you are making, I am making a separate point that Sandy’s first two teams did slightly better than the two Mets teams that preceded him.
As for YOUR point, I am asking what relevancy is there to your comparison of the talent level of the 2013 team to the 2010 team since (1) the games are NOT played on paper, (2) the 2013 team hasn’t been finalized yet and is likely to change a lot DURING the season, and (3) the 2010 team sucked. What’s your point in doing this?
A ton of people thought that the 2012 Marlins on paper were world beaters. They turned out to be a joke!
Also, if the 2013 team does wind up having a better record than the 2010 team, it would probably because of the young talent the Mets had during that time stepping up and playing big roles on the team.
Right. It will likely be due to a lot of things. Here’s my question: If the 2013 team tanks, are you going to blame it ALL or MOSTLY on Sandy? If the 2013 teams does a lot better than expected, are you (and your side) going to give ALL or MOST of the credit to Sandy?
IOW, when does it become Sandy’s team? When does it stop being Omar’s team. IMO, after 2 years, a team should be considered mostly the design of the current GM (with an understanding of any financial constraints that GM had to work with). Only the first 1 or 2 years can you continue to give the former GM credit or blame for a team. Agreed? Or will I see a lot of flip-flopping in this forum during the season?
The point I’m making now is a counter point to your original point. If comparing the talent on the team now to the talent on the team prior to Sandy has no relevance, then you did YOU bring it up to begin with?
“How much worse off is the major league squad now than before Sandy got here?”
That was the 1st thing you said here, and I’m talking about that one specific point that you made. Why is that point irrelevant now, but at 12:10 it was relevant? What has changed in this short amount of time to make that point go from relevant to irrelevant?
Vinny, put another way, I am prepared to give Sandy 100% credit or blame for the performance of the 2013 major league team (within the context of the limited resources he’s had to work with). Are you and others who hold your views prepared to do the same?
I would not have done so in years 1 or 2. But I think it’s far enough along that this is now Sandy’s team.
“The point I’m making now is a counter point to your original point.”
Can I just say in an attempt at some lighthearted humor that that is a lot of points.
OK sorry for interjecting. Continue on.
If comparing the talent on the team now to the talent on the team prior to Sandy has no relevance, then you did YOU bring it up to begin with?
Vinny, I didn’t bring up the issue of “talent level.” You (or someone on your side) did. I was responding to Joe D’s original comment: “the major league squad is in worse shape than it had been.” IMO, the only way to judge what shape a club is in is by looking at results. Right? Because wins-losses are the ONLY thing that matters. Therefore, I was bringing up a counterpoint to Joe D’s original point by saying the 2011-2012 Mets teams actually won a few more games than the two Mets teams immediately preceding them.
You are free to focus on talent on paper, if that is the most important thing to you. I want to see results — either way — before I make any judgment.
As for my other question I posed, can you answer it? IOW, are you prepared to say now that the 2013 team is ALL Sandy’s, good or bad?
Actually, NJ, my point was in counterpoint to one of Joe D’s
But there are no results for the 2013 season, so all we can do is compare the talent level How else could we compare them?
I believe the talent level is significantly less than it was before – I already listed my reasons why, so scroll up if you want to read them again.
Vinny, exactly! So it’s too premature to pass judgment on the 2013 team IMO. Let the season play out, then proclaim it a success or failure.
BUT if you wanted to use 2012 and 2011 as a barometer, then use wins.
So, are you willing to say now that 2013 is ALL Sandy’s team — boom or bust?
“are you prepared to say now that the 2013 team is ALL Sandy”
Nope because it’s not his team….Not because of anyone’s fault but his own….
No one made him sign little to nothing, Trade away OFers with no credible replacement…
And the only contributions he has made that MIGHT be a factor is Wheeler and d’Arnaud….
None of which he would have had without those players Omar left him….
This won’t be Sandy’s team until the majority of the players are drafted by him or traded for with players he acquired.
Until them it’s pretty much Omar’s team and if he had done his job it wouldn’t be that way by now he would have acquired more of his own.
So you’re saying any criticism the team gets for it’s performance on the field in 2013 belongs to Omar? OK, just so we know where you stand.
Yu go right on believeing thats what I said there slappy!
But the truth is if they succeed DESPITE the OF and without a major contribution from d’Arnaud and Wheeler this year Omar gets the credit for the good….
And if the OF is what holds them back Sandy gets credit for decimating it and ruining what the team could have been and not even TRYING to make it better!
Basically the only way Sandy gets any credit for this team succeeding is if Wheelr and d’Arnaud do it by themselves because thats all he has brought here…The rest are all Omars and if they are the major contributors to success then Omar is going to be the one who gets the credit…
It will be based on WHO GOT WHAT and who RUINED WHAT it could have been!
Ahh, you want it both ways, sloppy. Double standards. I knew it. Just wanted to smoke out folks like you who are inconsistent with your thinking and have arbitrary standards.
Well you can’t have it both ways. Sandy deserves all the credit in the world if the Mets see any improvement over 2012 and the mess that Omar left the club in. Because knowing Omar, he would have made an even bigger mess of everything had he stayed on as GM.
It’s just utter nonsense that Omar deserves any credit at this point. No more. He fuk’ed up. Too late for him.
No no both ways…
Just based on what they themselves have accomplished both the good AND the bad….
Since neither Wheeler or d’Arnaud are actually on the MLB squad yet and since Sandy decimated the OF if the OF is the reason they don’t win it will be Sandy’s fault they didn’t win…
And if Wheeler and d”Arnaud win us a playoff all by themselves (quite impossible) then Sandy gets the credit for those playoffs….
But until the players who win the games are MOSTLY his or until all the major contributors are players he has acquired he really isn’t going to get any credit for what:
Davis, Murphy, Niese, Harvey, Gee, Tejada do towards winning ballgames….
You would give him credit for ANY success and blame any failure on Omar but thats because of the lack of oxygen you suffer from having your head deep inside sandy’s butt!
It’s a question that is impossible to answer. I don’t see how you can credit or blame someone based off hypothetical success or failures. It all depends on what happens during the season.
So my answer to your question is simply, I don’t know. That’s it – I don’t know. We’ll see how it plays out.
This is just a trap question anyway, so it’s just a waste of time. You just want someone from the other “side” to give you answer that you can use against them in your personal battles – That’s lame.
And it has nothing to do with the original point. You couldn’t argue any of the counter points, so you diverted the topic into something else. You now say it’s irrelevant to compare the team now to when Sandy first took over, yet your first post today was doing exactly that.
So Gillick never won a WS for the Phillies, right? It was mostly Wade’s creation!
And Theo Epstein doesn’t get the bulk of the credit for the 2004 WS right? Wow, that Dan Duquette was quite a genius!
Sorry, but saying it depends just allows you to waffle, flip-flop and contradict yourselves in the future!
And no Vinny, it ain’t a “trap question” … it’s merely an attempt to keep fans like you from flip flopping throughout the season and using double standards all the time.
I argued all the points that needed to be argued. OTOH, no one came up with a satisfactory reason why Omar’s 2009 and 2010 teams had fewer wins than Sandy’s cash-strapped 2011-2012 versions. The health card is the lamest excuse when Sandy had his own share of crippling injuries.
And your falsley assuming that I didn’t say anything about the injuries while Sandy was GM.
If you can’t see how losing Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, Pagan, and later on Santana could hurt a team’s record, then I don’t know what to tell you. Also, Dickey was not on that team, but he was when Sandy arrived.
So, actually if you want to compare the 2010 team to the 2012 team, the 2010 team won 5 more games, and that’s WITH Dickey. That gap will only expand without him. It could be a ten or more win difference without Dickey.
Just using simple logic will tell you the team is less talented – They lost three all stars and Pagan, and replaced them with two rookies and Marcum. The only way they could be a better team is if the talent that Sandy inherited play like all stars, or Wheeler and D’Aruand have magical rookie seasons.
Nope, Vinny, I’m not assuming you said that. I said that you CAN’T pull out the health card for 2009-2010 and then not use it for 2011-2012. So,you either use it for all years or NONE.
Either way, Sandy’s first two teams has a few more wins than the two Mets teams that preceded him.
And Dickey was certainly on the 2010 team. (You didn’t specify a year when you said “that team.”)
And no, I don’t want to cherry pick the years. I want to compare 2011-2012 with 2009-2010. A LARGER sample size. And Sandy’s teams has a few more wins than Omar’s.
Again, what relevancy is there to say in January whether a coming team has more talent on paper than a team 1 or 2 years before? Believe what you want about “talent” on paper. . It is totally irrelevant. The only thing that matters for the ML club is the wins and losses.
Oh, and let me get this straight — who did you say deserves most of the credit for the Phillies’ last WS title? And for the Red Sox’ 2004 title?
Yes, you see no difference between season ending injuries to
Reyes
Delgado
Beltran
Santana
Putz
and losing significant time with Wright
the mets actually set a club record with all the guys they had on DL that year…
2011 – Sandy loses Ike + Wright, and unlike 2009, he inherited the depth ( because Emus and Hu were long gone ) to sustain those injuries…
if Omar inherited the guys Sandy did, we replace Delgado with Ike…we replace Reyes with Tejada…when Wright goes down he is replaced by Murph…
again u are clowned…
Wow, too bad you are talking about things you pretend to know about again! In 2011, not only was Ike lost for the season, but Wright had a broken back, Santana was out the ENTIRE season, Reyes went on the DL twice, and Murphy was also lost.
Face it, the team Omar left Sandy was a huge huge mess. You’ve been stomped!
yes, and who played 3B when Wright was gone ?
a guy that Sandy brought in ???
NOOOOOOOO
Daniel Murphy + Justin Turner
who played 1B when Ike went down….
a guy that Sandy brought in??
NOOOOOOOOO
Daniel Murphy and Lucas Duda…
when Reyes hit the DL the first time, who played SS ???
Ruben Tejada !!!
by the time he hit the DL the 2nd time, Murph was out for the season on the same day and the team lost Beltran and K-rod due to trades
Nice try…but try harder
2 quarters to continue, 1 quarter to start over
As usual you TOTALLY miss the point and go off on irrelevant tangents.
The Mes in 2011 lost their ALL-STAR third baseman for a good chunk of the season with a serious injury that likely also impacted his play the rest of the season. They lost their biggest power bat. They lost their speediest guy TWICE during the season. They NEVER had Santana for even one start. And then they also lost Murphy.
It doesn’t matter who may have filled in. They lost multiple front-line starting players for huge chunks of the season. Stomped again!
So interesting. No one will answer the question of who deserves credit for the Phillies WS or the RS 2004 title. Gillick or Wade? Theo or Duquette?
Some of you want things both ways!
Credit just doesn’t go to one person.
For the Phillies, I DO give Wade credit for building the foundation of that team. I believe Howard, Utley, Rollins, and Hamels were all drafted and developed under his watch. In also give credit to Gillick because he signed complimentary pieces like Victorino and Werth that helped put them over the top.
Wade and Gillick get joint credit IMO. Wade built the team, and Gillick added the pieces to put them over the top.
So then I gather you’d say Epstein and Duquette get the credit for the 2004 title.
Well I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.
If the 2013 Mets do poorly this season, I trust I won’t be seeing you trash Sandy on this forum, then, without also trashing Omar.
The injuries in 2009 are a perfectly logical reason as to why they had a poor record.
Let me put it this way: I’m arguing that the team is weaker now because Beltran, Reyes, and Dickey aren’t here – That’s my main point. So, in 2009, Reyes, Beltran, and Dickey, weren’t there for most of the year either! And in Dickey’s case he wasn’t here at all.
My reasons why the 2009 was bad, is the same reason I think the team now is weaker: Reyes, Beltran, and Dickey weren’t there. Reyes and Beltran played sparingly in 09, and Dickey wasn’t here. And in 2013, all of them won’t be here.
Btw, Wade did sign Victorino. And I forgot to mention that Gillick traded for Rowand and Lidge.
Like i said before, I don’t know who I will blame or credit the success to.
So it’s your opinion a front office doesn’t project results? They just make random moves because on paper they mean nothing? That the Mets have as much a chance of winning more games than the Nationals, Braves, Giants, Blue jays, etc.? Sorry, but this is baseball, and it’s always been about projection. The results only serve to see if you projected accurately or inaccurately. If you made the wrong moves or the right ones. All front offices build based on their best projected outcomes. They employ people just to crunch numbers along with all their scouting. You can throw away historical data on players because it’s on paper, but I can assure you that the people who make the real decisions don’t build rosters on a wing and a prayer.
LOL, who said a FO doesn’t project or number crunch? Certainly not I. Now, who’s making strawman arguments!!!!!
Comment on things that I say. Not on things you wish I had said.
Ollie and Castillo’s contracts had nothing to do with the 2006-2008 run and Bernie Madoff was the main reason for the financial problems, NOT the contracts so shove it where the sun don’t shine.
There was no mess baseball wise that he inherited. He inherited a good roster that he neglected and even though Sandy neglected the roster he inherited his first year they STILL managed to stay in it until about mid season – with no help from your Sugar Daddy. And he did the same thing in 2011 so one can say that Sandy helped sabotaged those 2 seasons in order to get some higher draft picks? And it looks like so far that Sandy is sabotaging the 2012 season as well when he should be starting to surround the young pitching with some good ballplayers to start competing and making MONEY now.
WTF are you talking about? I never said Ollie and Castillo had anything to do with the 2006-2008 run. And I never said Madoff was not the main reason for the financial issues. Stay on point.
But it’s pure BS to think that signing Ollie and Castillo to those stinking contracts was forced on Omar in anyway by any financial situation. It was Omar’s decision to retain and extend both players, and he bid against himself, in both situations. LOL, as some have joked, Omar’s negotiating style was to say: “OK, whatever you want!”
Again, find me one other team that had $60 million in totally useless contracts clogging up the roster in 2011. That’s a stinking mess, no matter how much you want to sugar coat it.
That 60 million produced a grand total of 0.7 WAR in 2011. LMFAO. You can’t make that up!
There were two primary reasons for the Mets financial mess — Madoff and the new stadium debt.
The mess Omar made of the ML roster and with the weak farm system is another matter.
Sandy was saddled with both.
Again you fail to understand that Omar left your sugar daddy with a very competitive roster and a very nice farm system that Alderson is basing his rebuilding off of.
There was no mess when it came to the baseball end of things. I’m sure many GMs would have loved to inherit that roster and farm system.
THERE WAS NO MESS.
No, Bayonne. You FAIL to understand that Omar left Sandy with a BIG HUGE stinking mess. $60 million in unproductive contracts at the ML level. An onerous $17 million vesting option on K-Rod. Beltran in his final year. And a relatively weak farm system.
Omar will never get another GM job in baseball. That’s how much other teams loved the job he did!
How do you know he won’t get another job? You don’t know the future holds.
Ricciardi left the Blue Jays with more than double the unproductive contracts on Wells, Rios. B.J. Ryan alone. The Wall Street Journal called the Vernon Wells contract the second worst MLB deal ever. Things happen You act as though it was Minaya’s plan for his players to become unproductive. Also aren’t you the one who just argued that you can’t go by what’s on paper and just let what happens happens and fate will decide? Make up your mind Metro. Please choose one argument and stick to it. Come on already.
60 million in unproductive contracts doesn’t amount to much if there’s no Madoff scandal which is the REAL reason for the financial instability. I didn’t care much about the KRod’s vesting option because if the entire team does not get hurt in 2009 it’s not an issue. At the time Omar made those VERY GOOD deals in acquiring Putz & KRod, 2 deals that everybody liked AT THE TIME the Mets were figured to be perennial contenders. And that was prior to 2009 season starting. You knew it, I knew it, and every fan here felt that this team was on the road to becoming a perennial contender at the time those deals were made so what’s left to do after the 2009 injuries and the 2nd half fail of 2010?
SECOND GUESS. And that is exactly what you’re doing. And it was NOT a relatively weak farm system. It was a relatively GOOD farm system. You are just making yourself look like the ideological FOOL that you are by continuing to insist that the farm system was weak. We already covered that, you are WRONG. Period.
Vinny, it’s a prediction. Geez!
No it’s not. You said it because you want it to happen. Don’t back track now you phoney.
Bayonne, you are right that without Madoff, the 60 million in unproductive contracts wouldn’t have been so bad. But I still think that’s bad.
Omar bid against himself all too often, giving away extra millions and fancy pro-player vesting options as if they were candy. The 17 million option for K-Rod was a killer.
I had no issue with Putz. And, no, at the time Omar made those bad deals I had no illusions he was building a perennial winner. Everything was quick fix for Omar. And everything was heavily backloaded when the financial situation with the franchise didn’t necessitate it. Madoff happened in 2008, but it wasn’t until the lawsuit two years later after Sandy got there that things got a whole lot worse.
And, YOU ARE WRONG. The Mets farm system was mediocre at best when Sandy got here. Maybe a 4 or 5 on a scale of 10. Hey, but keep those Omar-blinders on if it makes you feel better!
LOL, Bayonne, whether or not I want it to happen is totally immaterial to the fact that it is simply a prediction.
But there WAS the Madoff issue which greatly impacted the money the Mets were willing to spend and the moves they were able to make. So saying Omar’s disastrous signings wouldn’t have been quite so disastrous if there was no Madoff deal doesn’t mean a whole lot. Actually, that’s just further proof how much easier things were on the GM during the Omar-regime….he had free reign to spend and throw money at whomever and whoever without really thinking about the consequences or much of a budget. And he also inherited two great young players in Wright and Reyes that played generally tough to fill positions.
Because of the poor signings and the Madoff-caused payroll restrictions Sandy inherited a mediocre at best roster with a high payroll that needed to be cut and a number of non-contributing players making a lot of money. And the last two years of the Omar-regime won 70 and 79 games…not exactly the “good roster” you claimed it to be, and they weren’t a particularly young team, or a team with a ton of elite level prospects ready to contribute immediately.
Not really Jeff….
The Wilpons made a hell of a lot more money from Madoff than the 169 Million they MAY or MAY NOT have to pay back.
SO it’s not true to say that Madoff COST them….They may have been hesitant to spend over the threat of having to pay a Billion dollars when they were being sued but that suit is gone and they didn’t really lose any money from Madoff that could deny them money to spend…
It’s not madoff that has hurt the spending it is the lack of attendance….
Attendance that has gone down because we have traded away the best player on the team two years running in the name of getting TWO players that have supposedly rebuilt Our MiL System…And thats only temporary since bth are likely to be playing for the MLB team before the season is out…After that our Minors are in no better shape than they were before we let 5 Good players, 4 All Stars, 1 Cy Young winner go!
You are right Jeff. Madoff doesn’t really excuse Omar for all the poor contracts he made. It’s just that the mess could have been covered up better if Madoff hadn’t existed. You know, the way Cashman covers up his mistakes! But Madoff in no way excuses Omar from making the bad choices he did.
Omar left Sandy with a real mess of a roster to deal with and a relatively weak farm system. Combine that with the Madoff lawsuit that was filed AFTER Sandy got to the Mets, and the situation was an extremely difficult one for any GM to deal with.
Yeah technically they didn’t lose money to Madoff, but they did lose the expected money. They were counting on the money they made from the Madoff “investment” to keep rolling in…and then they lost that. And that doesn’t even include the lawsuit stuff.
The biggest factor in the decline of attendance is the poor performance of the team….which goes back to the Omar years too….not trading a couple of players away. They made those trades in Dickey’s case b/c they got a great offer and in Beltran’s case b/c they weren’t planning on re-signing him and got a great offer and the team was bad. And its the Madoff thing (especially going back to last offseason where the lawsuit was still hanging over their heads) that impacted their ability to sign Reyes.
I think it’s silly to blame Sandy for the non-spending. If anything Sandy’s biggest failure might have been not doing with Reyes what he did with RA and Beltran. The Mets money issues were pretty clear and pretty much everyone had the odds of the Mets being able to sign Reyes as pretty small….if they knew they weren’t going to sign him (which seems to be the case) they should have traded him and got another big piece like they did for RA and Beltran.
Sorry Jeff but the madoff money didn’t roll into the Mets books it ran into Wilpon’s pocket.
The mets financial problems are all due to the loss of attendance not investment capitol. The Mets are forbidden by the MLB to invest thier money in some other venture. The WIlpons took the cash and depositied it in thier own name and used money made from it to pay bills but the mets never got or subsidized thier payroll and expenses using Madoff profit.
If the Mets as an entity never had money in Madoff. Wilpon was responsible for returning the money when it was needed and played a game of Collect Interest on someone else’s money with the Cash collected at the gates but the only thing the METS got out of it was an IOU from Wilpon.
Well supposedly the Bonilla stuff was tied into the Madoff accounts. And you seem to realize the lawsuit had an effect. So I am not sure what you are arguing here. Besides, the Madoff stuff was brought up by Bayonne as a way to give Omar a pass for his bad signings hurting the team…so fine if we are going to argue the Madoff stuff had no effect…in the context of this argument that just makes the Omar moves look worse.
It was known the Mets had money issues and were going to cut payroll even before they started trading players. So I’m not sure how you can say those two trades ( one of which just happened a month ago) is the only reason they are losing money.
The Mets provided the seed money for the account 15-20 years ago….Not a penny of Mets revenue has gone to paying Bonilla since.
And whatever was lost in Madoff has probablt been recouped because Picard has already cut checks to many of the victims.
You think that the Mets have had to pay Bonilla from their yearly earnings every year? If you do you need to learn about how deferred payments work. The team that makes the promise pays a portion of the total promise and invests it and it is that investment that pays the deferral. So really at worst they lost the seed money in Madoff which is probably about 5-10 MIl to pay off a 20 Mil deferred promise.
I don’t really care who used an excuse for Omars signings as bad…Truth is only three of them were bad. Total loss 38Mil a year….
It’s not even fair to call castillo a bad signing as he only made 2 Mil more than Francisco who truly sucks and had some good years before anyone thought that deal was a bad one….
It’s really Perez and Bay you guys call Omar out for totally ignoring all the good signings he made which FAR OUTWEIGH the bad deals you guys keep mentioning.
The Mets did have money issues though….Lost 50 Mil in 2010, Lost 70 Mill in 2011 (under Sandy mind you) Lost 23 Mil in 2012….
NONE of it due to Madoff….All of it due to the fact people stopped going to see them and why did they stop?
2010 Lack of Beltran knowing before the season started he wass going to miss half a year and this after an injury plagued season that we were called the team to beat.
2011 – Traded away two of our best performers mid season and let fans know no reason to show up in August and Spetember
2012 – Not helping a team who was two games out of first before the All Star game and then the GM went on Air that said we aren’t good enough to HELP yet (or go see for that matter)
and we will lose money AGAIN in 2013 because Wheeler and d’Arnaud won’t boost ticket sales starting off the year in Vegas, And the loss of a Cy Young MUCH BELOVED Pitcher who was the biggest draw to the stadium last year to getg one of them….
And all these hopes of BUYING what we need in 2014 will go away in a puff of smoke while we all talk about 2015 as the year we will spend again…..And we will rinse and repeat until the names we need to trade to rebuild the minors (because there still is no money) will be Davis, Niese, Tejada, Murphy maybe even Wright and Harvey….
I really don’t care to argue about the semantics of the Madoff situation here and how exactly it might’ve effected them. That wasn’t the point. I was only responding to the Bayonne posts that wanted to excuse Omar’s bad moves b/c the Madoff stuff couldn’t be predicted.
And the Castillo signing was brutal…and easy to predict it would be awful… so I am not giving a pass at all there.
That’s an awful lot of excuses you are rolling out for the Omar regime. 2010 people didn’t go to games just b/c Beltran got hurt? I find that hard to believe. (Especially since so many idiot fans unnecessarily hated Beltran..but that’s a whole other issue)
And I completely 100% disagree with your take on the 2011 trades. The team wasn’t good. Trading K-Rod (who they really couldn’t afford to be paying in 2012) and Beltran who they got a great return for and weren’t going to re-sign, were the right moves. Attendance wasn’t particularly great as is…and the team wasn’t a real contender (pre-trade their high point on the year was 3 games over .500). Trading away those two guys and losing some attendance over the last 2 months (though its not like people went to games to see K-Rod) is not why they had to cut payroll. Keeping those two for PR purposes just to play out a couple more months of a going nowhere season would have been incredibly dumb. Things would be more bleak right now if they lost Beltran for nothing and didn’t have Wheeler in the wings. Similarly, not trading Reyes (now that it seems the Mets had no intention to sign him) was probably Sandy’s worst move to date…they should have capitalized on his trade value. Not trading Beltran would’ve been even worse than not-trading Reyes….at least from the anti-trade standpoint the fan backlash to trading Reyes would’ve been greater (not that that should really be a reason to make trades).
I do agree that they should have done more to help the 2012 team. And that signing Francisco to that deal was a bad move. The bullpen was Sandy’s main area to address pre-2012 and he did a terrible job at it.
And no I wasn’t really talking about the deferred money in terms of the Mets having to pay Bonilla every year. I was just meant there were reports that the Mets did put whatever money they initially saved on Bonilla into the Madoff accounts – so there was at least some direct ties b/w Mets and Madoff money. But like I said I’m not really interested in a big Madoff debate. I do think it had an effect on the moves the Mets made in recent years. It seemed like the Wilpons were the only ones who had insisted that it would have no effect…I didn’t think there were any fans that actually believed that line. And it seemed event the Wilpons backed of the Madoff had no effect stance in recent years. The team stinking also had a big effect too… but that sucktitude certainly wasn’t all Sandy’s doing. It had a lot more to do with the very high payroll, non-winning team he inherited. Sandy was hired in large part b/c of the Mets money problems.
No I’m sure you do not want to argue the semantics because it’s being used as a tool to blame Madoff for our lack of spending….
As for Castillo being a brutal contract….
8 Mil for a guy who hits .274 .366 OBP is Brutal then half the players signed in the MLB are BRUTALLY BAD contracts….
Your only counting that as a bad contract because without it all you got is Bay (who sandy took two years to get rid of and continued to start him) and Perez who only got 12 Mil and it doesn’t sound as financially damaging to say we had 30 Mil in bad contracts so you need castillo to pump up the stat manipulation…
All of the arguments about spending and finances here are being perpetrated by SEMANTICAL LIES which is why people don’t want to argue about them because the truth comes out and excuses for Sandy’s actions go POOF!
Forents and purposes all of Bonilla’s money is from the 90′s it’s not money that has anything to do with the last 10 year’s budget!
So Madoff had no affect….
Castillo was a terrible contract. If you can’t see that then I don’t know what to tell you. A broken down lousy defensive 2b who could barely hit the ball out of the infield is not a guy you give a 4 year deal too.
And fine if you want to really believe the Wilpons and everything they say and think that the Madoff scandal had nothing to do with the lack of spending….that only casts even more blame onto Omar. That would mean all the Mets financial problems and money lost was due to the terrible job done by Omar….spending 130-140 mil a year and not being able to make the playoffs or even really contend. The team was losing money and terrible in the years prior to Sandy taking over…it was known that they had to cut payroll – which is why Sandy was hired. If Madoff and the Wilpons are not to blame for that… I guess its all Omar then.
What was so terrible about it jeff?
Was his BA under the mendoza line?
Was his OBP subpar?
Do you have a name of a better 2B we could have got that was the same price or cheaper?
Tell us all why it was so bad it deserves to be lumped in with Bay and Perez…
Then tell us why Torres, Ramirez and Francisco getting 12 Mil plus the loss of Pagan last year and Francisco 6 Mil this year is not even MORE DISASTROUS than Castillo….
We will wait for it….
$24 mil for a guy who played lousy defense, put up a 85 OPS+ which included a .315 SLG, and two years of an OPS well below 700…and the supposed “good” year = of a 99 OPS+ and a 1.8 WAR is bad yes. He wasn’t particularly good most of the preceding years and was known to have hip and knee issues and was slowing down. I think that one was actually the worst of the three most talked about Omar deals since it was so predictable.
As for who else they could have signed… I was no fan of David Eckstein either, but if the Mets wanted a crappy slap hitter they could have had him…he only signed a 1 year deal that same offseason. Not that he was any good either, but better than locking Castillo into a 4 year deal. Aaron Miles was available that offseason too…he ended up signing a 1 year deal and having a good season. Or they could have just given the chance to guys they already had in Ruben Gotay and Damien Easley. Or there is always the trade market – a path Omar never seemed to explore quite enough. But Omar panicked and decided to throw 4 years at Castillo instead.
As for Torres, Ramirez and Francisco no question those guys were busts…and Frank particularly and predictably so. I never said anywhere here that I agreed or loved every move Sandy ever made…so I don’t know what your point is with that. I already bashed the Frank move earlier.
But Omar’s moves…having teams with enormous payrolls but the inability to win/make the playoffs for years were much more responsible for the lousy state of the team and the losing money and needing to shed payroll than the Sandy moves were. Omar’s moves (especially if you want to dismiss the Madoff stuff) is the reason the team has needed to cut payroll and the reason why Sandy hasn’t had much freedom to spend. I agree spending what little money he had on FF was a lousy move, but the prior years of ineptitude have a lot more to do with the team being being in a lousy state than a couple of Sandy moves that didn’t work out.
24 Mil? Over 3 years maybe….
How many bad years did he have?
Was he any worse than Murphy?
Any worse than Utley is now?
How much does he make?
You can keep trying to fudge the numbers up by counting ALL years of a player who really had one BAD one if it makes you feel better but it sure isn’t proving anything….
Just that you are biased to make it sound as horrible as you want it to be so you can blame Omar for doing what Sandy did with Torres, Ramirez and Francisco Minus 4 Mil and the loss of Pagan to get it…
If castillo was a horrible deal then Francisco and the others I mentioned must be much much worse!
Cost more money, Got even less production and it cost us the one OFer we had that put us into position of needing THREE this year we still haven’t got yet!
Fudge numbers? One bad year? I am not fudging anything. I am talking about his full contract. If Omar only gave Castillo a 1 year deal – it still would have been bad since he was brutal in 2008_..but it wouldn’t have been nearly as bad as the 4 year deal. And it wasn’t “one bad year”. He had two terrible years in 2008 and 2010 was somewhat decent in 2009 and was released (paid to do nothing) due to his uselessness before the 2011 season. So that was 4 years and only one that could be classified as remotely decent.
You are the one trying to fudge numbers and proclaiming all the Mets money woes are due to a couple of Sandy trades
Was he bad for the entire contract? NOPE!
in 2009 he hit .302 with a .387 OBP
Hit better than Torres the remaining two years so YES your just trying to fudge numrs to make it sound like he got what Bay got!
He made 8 Mil per year….
Name a guy who makes 8 Mil per year that did any better at that time.
I mentioned the full contract b/c that’s what I was talking about. I never said he got 24 mil a season. I was talking about it as a multi-year deal. It was bad enough to sign him…giving a guy like that 4 years was what made it a ridiculous bad deal. Even that “good” year you mention wasn’t particularly good. He had a OPS+ of 99 and played horrid defense. And the other two years were horrid and non-existent so yes it was a brutal deal… 4 year and only one year that was remotely decent.
And I already mentioned guys that could have been signed/kept after the 2007 season for much cheaper than Castillo got…both per year and more importantly, not requiring 4 year deals to sign. And then there were others available after 2008 (like Hudson) if they had signed a stop gap in 2007. There weren’t tons of great players available…. but ones that would have made a lot more sense to sign than forking over 4 years to Castillo.
And the Castillo deal was worse than the Torres, etc. stuff. Because again, it impacted the team for 4 years. And it was at a time where ownership wasn’t broke, the GM actually had some freedom. That deal along with others of the Omar era….and the overall huge payroll with the huge lack of success in his last couple years is the reason the team got in the mess they were in and part of the reason why guys like Torres and Frank are the extent of their “spending”.
You’re just looking back in hindsight at moves that had no effect on the Mets pennant run from 2006-2008. Castillo’s was not a good contract and I didn’t like it at the time as well but it had no bearing on the Mets successes during those runs and that’s all i’m interested in – winning ballgames not winning who signs the best contracts contests. The Perez contract was worse because he gave NOTHING back and more money was spent. At least Castillo gave you some production back although not worth what he was paid so it’s not even close.
And it’s relative too. You saying that the Castillo move was worse than acquiring Torres is based on nothing factual or solid and simply based on an intangible you created out of thin air and that’s your mission to protect Alderson at any cost.
Sandy Alderson wasted 2.4 million on DJ Carrasco, 12 million on Francisco so far and 3.5 million wasted on Rauch. Add up all the useless minor league contracts over the last 3 years and the Mets having some “alleged” financial problems it’s all relative. Alderson wasting at least 18 million of the Mets precious dollars with the small amount of major league moves he’s made hurt too. I would say his percentage of bad contracts so far is WORSE than Omar’s, relatively speaking. Also Omar oversaw WINNING.
That’s all i care about. Not well thought out debates about contracts or finances. I’m interested in WINNING BALL GAMES and until Alderson brings as much winning to the Mets as Minaya or Phillips you have no game and nothing to say in defense of him. And Omar also provided the players that Alderson turned into Wheeler and d’Arnaud & Syndegaard while at the same time he’s purposely tanking in order to get higher draft picks.
More bull from you…Stadium debt has nothing to do with Met Finances!
Met Spending is soley based on it’s revenue from Attendance, TV money and League Shares.
The Stadium debt is paid off by the revenue from the stadium itself. WHich may also be based on Attendance but a seperate cut from what the team gets.
SO yes your just making crap up because you really have nothing to support your propagandist view.
More ignorant BS from Metsie. The Mets debt payments on the new stadium amount to 40-50 million a year. They didn’t have this huge liability before the new stadium. You are speaking out of your azzz once again!
WRONG again slappy….
The STADIUM PAYMENTS are 40-50 Mil….And the METS do not have to pay a penny of it!
The METS do not own the Stadium the Wilpons do….
So much for that attempt and agena via subterfuge….
WRONG, again, SLOPPY!
The Mets (whether that is Sterling or some other Mets-owned corp) have to pay 40 -50 MILLION a year to cover the bond financing that went into the new stadium. That is a liability that did NOT exist in the Shea years.
So you think the Mets own Sterling/Wilpon and not the other way around….
I see….Thank you for letting the world know just what kind of mind we are dealing with here….
If lKRods option was so bad how come the small market brewers were able to buy it out for 500k
Just saying competent management usually can work out a deal as such
LOL, little metsie. Don’t put words into my mouth. Of course Wilpon/Katz own just about everything. The point is, the Mets as a franchise have to pay 40-50 million dollars, a liability that didn’t exist before. Are you really that ignorant? It doesn’t matter what the official entity is called, the 40-50 million comes out of profits that would otherwise have been used for things like payroll before Citi Field existed. Capiche? Or is that too difficult for your tiny brain?
Jon, because the Brewers had all the leverage. The Mets had none. This was widely reported at the time. Don’t know why some of you selectively mis-remember this!
I didn’t put a single word in your mouth…
I Quote
“The Mets (whether that is Sterling or some other Mets-owned corp) have to pay 40 -50 MILLION ”
You called is a METS OWNED CORP!
SO you think the METS own Sterling, the stadium and probably think they own SNY too…
Keep showing us just how smart you are there my friend.
Mets = Wilpon/Katz. Figures you want to get all caught up in semantics because you were WRONG about the “Mets” liabilities regarding stadium debt.
It matters little what the formal name of the entity is that has to make the payment — IT’S COUNTED AGAINST THE METS LEDGER SHEET AND IT’S MONEY THEY DON’T HAVE TO SPEND THAT IN PREVIOUS YEARS THEY’D HAVE.
LOL, they are 40-50 million dollars poorer because of Citi Field. You lost again, Metsie.; Just like when you said Omar was above Josh Byrnes in the Padres’ hierarchy! LOLOL! Just like you are above when you failed to see Bayonne was the FIRST to throw around the personal insults and I only threw the mud back at him! You are always wrong, little metsie! ALWAY!
The “Mets” (Wilpon/Katz or whatever corporate entity formally pays the stadium debt) had to shell out $40-50 million dollars to pay down stadium debt. Only in your bizarro world did this debt not exist and a payment against it wasn’t made in 2012.
Take your adderall, little metsie!
here yu go…and you started first….
You want to continue down this path of insults or do you want to stop now before JoeD has to step in…cause I’ll be sure (NOW THAT YOU STARTED) to make it imperative that he does….
You started it first, metsie. 1:48 PM. Anyone can see for themselves.
As for the stadium debt, the “Mets” had to pay the $40-50 million tab in 2012, just like every year since Citi opened.
You keep sayng i but there apears to be no insult anywhere in that till you mentioned I should take your prescribed medication….
vvvvv The proof… the quote right below! vvvvvv
Obviously there is … when you said:
“More bull from you…
SO yes your just making crap up because you really have nothing to support your propagandist view.”
But you’re so blind to your own transgressions you’re in denial. That is against Joe D’s posting policy!
I said what you said was not true…If you thought that was a personal attack then you got bigger problems than medication can solve….
But I will give you some hope here…
Just because they say your paranoid doesn’t mean people are not out to get you…
You can’t be this delusional. There were 2 more personal attacks right there. ugh
Only someone in denial or someone without any class would say there is no personal attack in that comment. You’ve hit the daily double, metsie!
Funny then isn’t it that my statement remains and your reply insult was deleted by JoeD….
Guess he didn’t agree with you when he reviewed the thread and deleted posts….
I think Metsie got you there Metro.
ok metro, looks like Metsie pretended to be me to agree with himself…
Because Joe D. was at a wedding this evening He emailed me to acknowledge it when I told him that you started it and gave him the time stamp. He earlier deleted other garbage of yours.
Wow, Metsie’s that desperate that she would pretend to be someone else to agree with herself? How said.
What in the wild world of insanity makes you think that was me?
Two LOLs plus a REAL LOL?
Have JoeD check the IP logs….
And by the way the post you say JoeD deleted of mine that was insulting you is still there…SO much for that fantasy….
But here is something that could be interesting….Maybe lol is Metro!
And your really just talking to yourself….
JoeD will tell us all in the morning I suppose but I was not any of those LOL posts sorry to burst you LOLLE Bubbles…
It was probably you.
And the 1:48 post is still there because, as I ALREADY said, Joe D was not here at the time. He emailed me. But some of your other garbage had already been deleted.
Now go back to posting as other people and agreeing with yourself! You’re more interesting that way!
Yeah well you go one thinking that cause like I said…
Just because your paranoid….LOL
It’s easy to believe in reality. You should try it sometime. Much better than your delusions. LOL
You mean guys like Chris Young and DJ Carrasco and frank Francisco?? Oh sorry those are Sandys guys
Omar inherited a great team:
Victor zambrano
Kris benson
Jeromy burnitz
Mike Jacobs
Kaz matsuri
And other great talent
He turned the Mets around with not just money butt impact trades.
Still waiting on our moneyball geniuses…..
Metro – not forgetting anything. Sandy had the same leverage. Maybe the reporting your talking about are all the Alderson leaks. He traded him at 2am one desperate morning and the brewers had the option negotiated the next day.
No, Jon. Sandy had ZERO leverage concerning the option. The Mets had to use K-Rod to close or they risked a union grievance being filed against them. The Brewers already had a bona fide closer so they risked nothing by not using K-Rod as a closer. They could legitimately keep K-Rod from closing out games. The Mets couldn’t.
Yup, zero leverage because boras was going to make money by not making money when the option vested !!!
yes, the same boras who encourages all his clients to test the free-agent market whenever possible
maybe it was todd boras instead of scott boras !!!
Nonsense, because Boras would have extracted a hefty free from the Mets to waive the option. A fee he would have gotten a cut of.
And K-Rod wanted to test the market so much he accepted arb from the Brewers at the end of 2011 instead of becoming a FA! LOL. You’ve been thoroughly stomped!
Yeah a hefty fee like he got from Milwalkee right?
LOL
Huh? Why would Milwaukee pay a hefty fee? THEY had the leverage! Their GM is NOT like Onnar who just gave away millions like it was candy! What you said makes no sense!
Bourn could also be chone figgins in which case the people that want him now destroy Alderson for doing it later. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure out what the Mets are doing. I said before I’m completely against Bourn on more than three years and giving up the pick because it can be used to get Stanton or to keep the system respectable after the trade. Plus there are two better center fielders on the market next year in my view. Dariel Alvarez is still available as well and I am hoping and expecting the Mets to go after him.
Half empty or half full you can spin it either way.
May I give my opinion (I guess spin who disagree with me).
This is a bottom up approach (rebuild farm) as previously said for sustained competitiveness.
However 2013 can’t be punted because with the culture of losing it then becomes hard to attract future FA . The fan base has been weened from instant gratification. But now it needs to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I just read where Alderson told an interviewer on Sirius XM that if he knew the Braves were going to sign Upton after the Hairston to the Cubs deal went through he may have gone after Hairston. This guy is the BIGGEST BSer in the baseball world and he would make the guy who invented the Ponzi scheme proud! I can’t take this guy anymore!
The GM did tell Francesa that the issue with Hairston was a commitment to playing time that they were not ready to do due to them exploring what was described as better options. If that meant an addition of Upton or Bourn is not known but in fairness to Hairston he is under no obligation to sit and wait to be the Mets fallback option and therefore he signed with the Cubs.
Yes Sandy said laying ti an issue but when has there ever been a contract signed in the MLB that said you get into X amount of games?
The holdup was money…The MONEY he was asking for was priced to inspire a team to give him more playing time due to the expense.
If playing time was an issue at all they could have easily come up with a contract that paid X amount of dollars less than what he was asking for with an incentive package to accfelerate to what he was asking for if he played in a certain amount of games.
I suspect Hairston didn’t want to do that because it would NOT guarantee him playing time it would in fact have the opposite affect and in the end Sandy didn’t want to pay the price Hairston set to try and GUARANTEE he got used more.
I won’t blame Sandy for not wanting to meet his price though
Hairston was just as much to blame, if playing time was important it was only to increase his worth later on for future contracts and if thats what he wanted he should have takent the one year deal with incentives to have another season to build his value on and still get to be an FA a year younger than he will now.
I don’t know how anyone can say the Minors are better now when the only two guys added to it are not going to be there by the time this season ends?
Once d’Arnaud and Wheeler get promoted do we go back to not spending and rebuilding the Minors because they need it again for being pretty much the same as it was before we lost Beltran, K-Rod, Reyes, Dickey and promoted Tejada, Davis and Harvey?
I don’t get how the Minors were better with just Wheeler and 3 months of d’Arnaud than they were before Davis, Muprhy, Tejada, Harvey and Gee got promoted.
THEY ARE REBUILDING!!!!!!!!!!! You cannot judge Alderson until the prospects are major leaguers.
Yes I can judge Alderson for the neglect he’s done to the major league roster over the last 2 years and possibly this year. And you can also say that his “OBP philosophy” could have hurt at least 2 of the teams biggest HR hitters last year too.
This man has purposely neglected the major league roster the last 2 offseasons and so far this off season as well probably for the sake of finishing as low as possible in order to draft higher when he should have been putting pieces in place to support the young pitchers coming up and providing the fan base a competitive team to root for and make money and trying to increase attendance. Instead we have holes and defensive weaknesses that should not be there but are there because of his philosophy. And we have an arrogant SOB who expects fans to show up while he purposely neglects the major league roster in hopes of turning on a magic switch and suddenly compete. And signing David Wright to a team-crippling 138 million dollar contract is rebuilding?
So onceh d’Arnaud get here we are done rebuilding and we should be playing for the playoffs is that what your suggesting here?
Cause lets be honest those are the only additions Sandy has made and he paid a pretty hefty price to get it!
An Annual All star and a Cy Young Pitcher….
So Unless you expect Wheeler to be winning a Cy Young anytime soon and d’Arnaud to make the all star game what you just said is just kicking the can hoping by the time it’s proved to be the folly it is everyone will have forgotten about what you said.
Yes, you are correct. Just as we did with Omar Minaya right? Matt Harvey, Jon Niese, Ruben Tejada, Ike Davis, Josh Edgin, Dillon Gee, etc. Let hope Alderson proves equally as good if not better.
Off Topic: Interesting article about MLB investigating South Florida in PED war.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/8884955/mlb-investigating-south-florida-ground-zero-ped-war
Even more interesting from a Mets perspective….
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/memorabilia-dealer-juice-delgado-article-1.1248819
“It is conceivable we get one or two [relievers]”
I’ll believe it when they bring in some significant arms for the bullpen. Looking at what’s left on the FA market among relief, here’s some solid choices:
-Tim Stauffer
-Jose Valverde
-Brian Wilson
-Scott Atchison
-Jose Contreras (minor league deal w/ST invite)
-LaTroy Hawkins
-Bobby Jenks (minor league deal)
-Kameron Loe
-Mark Lowe
-Brandon Lyon
-Joey Devine (minor league deal)
-Rafael Perez (minor league deal)
-Rich Hill
I would have liked Farnsworth for the money it would have taken to get him, onfotunatly the Rays resigned him.
You know one thing I don’t understand is all this talk about how much better the farm system is in the wake of the whole “sustainability” discussion. Virtually every major addition to our farm system (that has bumped up our standing) has been acquired through trade. You can’t keep trading cy young award winners for purposes of re-stocking your farm system and expect to be competitive on the big stage. At some point some of these draft picks need to make a splash … DePo and Ricci talk a good game but as of now Nimmo and Checchini don’t appear to be on the verge of delivering us to the promised land, so, yeah, this upcoming draft is kind of huge, they need to have a real real good draft and they need to find some good impact players.
You are right and that is a HUGE point. A GIGANTIC point.
Omar Minaya built the farm system up without raping the team of their stars, without purposely NOT competing. He did it all while competing AND spending. He did it with good old fashioned scouting, not selling off star players.
Sandy’s 2 acquisitions? He can thank Omar Minaya for giving him the talent to make those moves.
Yeah, Omar really left the farm barren.
What is being swept under the rug here in this agenda driven talk of our rebuilt minors is that we only added Two players to it to make it better and it cost us 5 Players on the MLB squad to get them.
So sure the MiLs can be considered better if you don’t count all the players that were IN IT and got promoted….
But what they did to get those guys is not equal to the holes they made on the MLB squad and now even the IMPROVED Minors is not enough to fix this team!
D’Arnaud has to be an All Star and Wheeler has to win a Cy Young or be in the running and even if they DO THAT, It still will not make up for the loss of Reyes, K-Rod and Pagan…
SO they have made the entire ORGANIZATION worse not better….Sure the Minors went up in level by two promising if unproven players but the Minors haven’t been improved enough to offset the losses the MLB squad paid to get them and as a result the entire organization is worse off than it was two years ago.
If the kids they want to believe Are so good Like Nimmo and Ceccini are all they claim then how come they keep insisting we have to trade a Wheeler or d’Arnaud to get a Stanton and Upton?
Yeah you got those guys with players provided by Omar Minaya. I see a lot of talk from you about d’Arnaud and Wheeler but nothing in this post about the major league roster, going on it’s 3rd year. Wonder why.
oops, that was for Metro…wrong “Met…”
Please for the love of God…Don’t confuse me with him! LOL
i know, i am soooooo sorry about that. That was a doozy! Please forgive me, Metsie
LOL Don’t sweat it!
Some Hot Stove talk on WFAN right now for anyone interested.
These are some other players that Alderson has brought into the Mets system, all could be playing for the Mets or used in trades. The first four could be high end starters or just get better in the minors and be more valuable trade bait.
Noah Syndergaurd
Rafael Montero
Micheal Fullmer
Luis Mateo
Collin Cowgill
Brandon Nimmo
Jack Leathersich
Gavin Cecchini
Cory Mazzoni
Kevin Plawecki
Matty Reynolds
Also in 2011 triple A Mr Cowgill hit 13 homers,70 RBI, 30 Stolen Bases out of 33 attempts, 51 walks to 63 strikeouts, a 354 batting average, 430 on base percentage, with a 984 OPS in 456 at bats. If we had a player in our system with those numbers in triple A last year most of the bloggers on here would be saying the same thing they said about Captain Kirk last year, let the kid play. Granted last year he did not play nearly as well in the minors and only had little over one hundred at bats for Oakland but he has been mostly consistent over his minor league career. The kid has potential and upside and should play everyday in my opinion in center and lead off. Scrappy player who needs at bats. Kirk should platoon in Left with Brown and Baxter should be the pinch hitter if no one is brought in.
Also lets be honest, Omar Minaya probably trades Harvey for an aging veteran he thinks is the missing piece that they need to win as he has done in the past. Alderson was not dumb enough to do that. And the pitching prospects listed here have extremely more upside than Anyone Minaya brought in aside from Harvey, who he would have traded.
Let’s be honest here,
Omar Minaya would NOT trade Matt Harvey. That’s just a moronic statement because you love your sugar daddy and his sabermetrics so much.
Period. But you’re singing the AAA praises of Colin Cowgill, a 4th/5th OFer. TRIPLE AAA SCRUB!!!!!
Peter you forgot the major league roster and a few other signings by Sandy since he got here:
C – Lucas May (L)
C – Dusty Ryan (R)
C – Rob Johson (L)
C – Raul Chavez (R)
1B – Chris Shelton (R)
2B – Brad Emaus (R)
2B – Omar Quintanilla (S)
3B – Willie Harris (L)
3B – Matt Tuiasosopo (R)
SS – Chin Lung Hu (R)
SS – Russ Adams (R)
LF – Fred Lewis (L)
CF – Andres Torres (S)
RF – Adam Loewen (L)
SP – Boof Bonser
SP – Miguel Batista
SP – Casey Fossum
SP – Chuck James
SP – Garrett Olson
CP – Jason Isringhausen
SU – Daniel Rey Herrera
MR – Taylor Tankersley
MR – Pedro Beato
MR – Blaine Boyer
MR – Taylor Buchholz
LS – Mike O’Connor
LR – DJ Carrasco
Your New York Mets!
Oh, by the way like somebody else pointed out. Omar built on trades first THEN the signings.
Bayonne, why do you say Minaya built on trades first? His first two significant moves were for Pedro and Beltran. The trades were minor if I recall.
Frankie you’re right,
His first 2 big moves were signing Pedro & Beltran. His first impactful trades came after that in acquiring Xavier Nady & Carlos Delgado who btw was criticized before by another clown as one of Omar’s “old guys”. Notwithstanding Delgado being one of the main reasons why the Mets were a such a good team from 2006-2008.
I guess according to some people who now embrace the strict rules of what a team should be and how they should act think only young players can help you get into the post season, not older ones.
Which one of those guys is going to make you a playoff team before 2017?
If not then whats all this talk about us being competitive?
I noticed you left off the major league additions from Sandy. Lets be clear Omar took over a bloated payroll and last place team two years running. He signed one very good free agents and made very good trades and found below market talent. That is what made the Mets competitive again. Sandys strategy is clearly to lose and lose and lose until we have enough young players ( see cheap) to compete. It is the Rays strategy and after another 5 losing seasons maybe it works. Met fans got there PR bone with the resigning of Wright to that horrid contract. No more will becoming at least Omar was smart enough to nab Harvey ( see Brandon Nimmo pick and passing on Jose Fernndez)
Lol
This is most certainly NOT a win now team.
Before things get out of hand, everyone take a deep breath. Nothing wrong with a passionate debate, but do it respectfully.
This can’t happen. Just the other day the jessup berated a ral Met fan for wanting Pelfrey vice the clown Liarson signed. She declared Pelfrey couldn;t be any good because he had TJ. Now jessup, tell us that Wilson is useless too. Or are you a hypocrite when the lordship changes his mind or tells new lies?.
You are funny, more than 90% of those signings where minor league signings with invitations to spring training. None of them big contracts that lose a draft pick or hinder your payroll for a long period of time. All major league baseball teams make those types of signings! I am sure you thought Josh Reddick was a scrub to before last year.
“Oh, by the way like somebody else pointed out. Omar built on trades first THEN the signings.”
See that is why we are screwed, he traded away good talent and did not have good drafts, signed free agents, lost picks and did not rebuild the system. There was one year that they had a chance to win and they did not. A recipe for long term losing and short term winning.He made some good international signings but the best thing he probably did for the Mets long term is he drafted Harvey. Now we are feeling the affects from what he did. Thanks for helping me make my point.
And if people can assume this and that about what Alderson is doing and thinking ,it is extremely fine for me to think that Minaya trades away Harvey or brings him up to soon like he did with Mejia, Moronic you say? I say no, and why? Well Because he did it already!!! Really moronic statement I made based on absolutely nothing.
You are also assuming I am a big sabermetircs guy,I think they are great to a degree but there is know way to judge a player strictly on that alone. I am a fan of having one of the best farm systems in baseball though and because it leads to having one of the best teams in baseball. See San Fran, Braves, Nats,Rays, and so on and so forth.
Also The Rays lose every year? That is their strategy? Where have you been? They did lose for years and built up the farm and now are reaping the rewards, but they are forced into a lot of decisions because of payroll. Mets have money issues now yes. but lets face it, Their payroll is now and will always be way way higher than the Rays, and it is just as high as the Nats, and Braves. And the Mets had the highest payroll from 2006 till when Alderson took over, why did they not win?
I also am not praising Cowgill, I am stating he has very good upside and it seems to go unnoticed around here, I think he should play everyday if no one is signed and wrote why. But like I said you probably had Reddick hitting over 30 homers last year and Oakland winning the division so what do I know! By that statement alone about Cowgill being a fifth outfielder, I now have even more assurance that he succeeds and turns into a decent player. Now before you jump the gun and say I am saying he is a superstar waiting to happen, notice I said Decent player, I will add very productive to that as well.
Here’s a question for any Sandy basher. If the Mets tank in 2013 is it ALL or MOSTLY all Sandy’s fault? If they are more successful than most of you think they’ll be, does Sandy get ALL or MOST of the credit?
In other words, are you prepared to say now that the 2013 team is ALL Sandy’s?
Or, will you decide depending on the eventual outcome of the team’s play on the field in 2013?
IMO, it’s far enough along into Sandy’s regime that this team should all be considered his. He has decided who stays and who goes from among the players he inherited. He decided who got playing time — how much and where. So I think in 2013, the team is ALL his. What say you, Sandy bashers?
What a strange question. It would depend on the reasons for success. If Matt Harvey goes 31-6 ala Denny McLain, and if Ike Davis emulates Hang Greenberg and wallops 42 home runs with 139 RBI, who would you credit? The bigger question is why do you care so much about who likes or dislikes the GM or if anyone trusts him? Why not concern yourself with your own reasons for like or dislike and leave it at that? As I said yours is a strange question whose purpose may be more about your own emotional connection to the GM than anyone else’s.
Jonathan, I would credit Sandy 100%. You can’t pick and choose and slice and dice the season’s results and say it all depends. A team usually fails or succeeds not due to one or two individuals, but the collective efforts of all 25 players.
IMO, Sandy should get the full credit or blame for whatever the 2013 team does. Otherwise it becomes an arbitrary exercise. I’d hate to see Sandy get whipped when the team goes through a losing streak and then when it wins, those same people saying “Oh, but it’s mostly Omar’s players!”
I unequivocally agree. I was being facetious because I thought your question was misplaced and a strange one. What type of answers do you think you will illicit and why does it matter? Who do you credit for 2011 and 2012 by the way?
What type of answers do I think I’ll get? I really don’t know. I guess I’m not expecting much because I think those who bash Sandy want to keep doing so if the team does poorly, while reserving the right to heap praise on Omar if the team does well, LOL.
They want it both ways!
But I was hoping those with the courage of their conviction would commit either way.
As for years 1 and 2, generally speaking, I think at those points in time, it’s too early for the team to be considered wholly the new GM’s. There is just not enough time for him to shape it the way he wants to and to put his stamp on it. In Sandy’s case, I would say year 1 was 70% Omar and 30% Sandy. Year 2 was roughly 70% Sandy and 30% Omar. And now, year 3, it should be 100% Sandy, for better or worse.
reserve the right to do so when the team goes bac
And of course ALL GMs should be judged within the context of the resources they are given. That should go without saying. But I’m just stating this now for the record.
I FEAR SANDY’S ATTEMPT @ STRADDLING WILL MEET WITH NO MORE SUCCESS THAN HAD SONNY BONO’S SIMILAR ATTEMPT ON THE SKI SLOPE
It would be interesting what the results would be if ALL Met fans, independent of any blog affiliation etc…… voted favorable or unfavorable on the path of the Organization and let the majority be the popular opinion!
Well, Metsblog already does something like that. And the results of late are the vast majority of fans agree with the direction.
I know some think Cerrone posts false numbers for the poll results, but he has no reason to. And at times the results were in the opposite direction, so if he had an agenda, then he would have changed the numbers then.