6
2013
Heyman: Mets Still Have Plenty Of Dollars To Spend
An article by 
According to a tweet from CBS Sports’ Jon Heyman, the Mets have quite a bit of dollars left to spend. Heyman says the team is still looking to add an outfielder, a starting pitcher and a bullpen arm.
Last week I answered a question about how much the Mets had to spend, and I speculated around $20-25 million.
Original Post 12/28
I received a question from Elliot Lowenstein that asks:
Why do you keep mentioning that the Mets have $25 million to spend this offseason. I’ve not seen that mentioned anywhere else and instead I only ready that the Sandy Alderson has little if anything to spend just like in his first two offseasons. I would appreciate a reply. Thanks.
Thanks for the question, and apologies for the delay in responding. Lets break it down by comparing last year’s payroll figure as compared to where it stands right now. Remember that things could still happen between now and opening day, but for now we can determine and calculate a realistic dollar amount as to what we can or cannot spend.
In 2012, Mets payroll came in at about $95 million dollars.
Projected Mets 2013 Opening Day Roster
Catchers
John Buck – $6 million
Anthony Recker – $500,000
Infielders
Ike Davis – $2.5 million (arb)
Daniel Murphy – $2.5 million (arb)
Ruben Tejada – $500,000
David Wright – $8 million (Deferred $3MM to aid team this offseason)
Justin Turner – $500,000
Brandon Hicks – $500,000
Outfielders
Lucas Duda – $500,000
Mike Baxter – $500,000
Kirk Nieuwenhuis – $500,000
Collin Cowgill – $500,000
Jordany Valdespin – $500,000
*Jason Bay – $6 million
Starting Pitchers
Johan Santana – $31 million (Includes 2014 $5.5MM buyout)
Jon Niese – $3 million
Matt Harvey – $500,000
Dillon Gee – $500,000
Jenrry Mejia – $500,000
Relievers
Frank Francisco – $6.5 million
Bobby Parnell - $1.5 million (arb)
Josh Edgin - $500,000
Robert Carson - $500,000
Jeurys Familia - $500,000
Jeremy Hefner - $500,000
Aaron Laffey – $500,000
Adjustments
The salary numbers I used for Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy and Bobby Parnell are all my estimates for what they will get in arbitration. It could be a little lower or higher.
The Mets still owe Jason Bay $21 million dollars, but $15 million dollars of it was deferred to 2014 and 2015. So $6 million has been added to the 2013 payroll commitment as well.
Though it’s technically not due until after the 2013 season, I included Johan Santana’s 2014 $5.5 million buyout above just to show that I’m not trying to inflate the amount that Sandy Alderson has been allotted to spend.
Three weeks ago, Mets COO Jeff Wilpon firmly repeated once again that he authorized and increased payroll for 2013 and that it will be higher than it was in 2012. Being as conservative as I possibly could, I took that to mean a minimum of $5 million dollars, though it could have been much more. I went with a lower figure to dissuade the perception that I am inflating the dollars the front office has to spend.
Lets Do The Math…
2012 Payroll – $95 Million
2013 Payroll Budget – $100 Million
2013 Payroll Commitments – $75.5 Million (projected roster thus far)
Total Difference – $24.5 Million
I hope that explains why I keep mentioning that $25 million dollar figure. If you disagree or find an error in my calculation, please make me aware of it.
Also, please note that last week, Sandy Alderson told reporters that just because he was authorized to increase payroll, and just because he now has a surplus of money to spend to improve the team, he does not feel obligated to spend all of it or even part of it. His reasoning is that players in today’s market are pricing themselves at levels that are far more than what he believes they are worth.
This statement by Alderson, coupled with what ownership has already confirmed about increasing payroll, all but eliminates the conclusion that the Mets are not spending because of financial woes. That storm has passed, and if payroll does come in around $80 million, it’s the general manager’s choice.
Thanks for the email, Elliot. The staff at MMO encourages reader participation. Please don’t hesitate to send your questions in.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
156 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- Dave In Spain: on Lutz Is The Easy Choice To Replace Davis, But Satin Is The Right Choice: There´s such a cult of Valdy here...
- Matt Balasis: on It’s Not The Approach That’s The Mets’ Problem, It’s The Execution: How does he hit all 5 baseballs...
- Doug: on It’s Not The Approach That’s The Mets’ Problem, It’s The Execution: The approach works great for Votto. The...
- Metsie: on It’s Not The Approach That’s The Mets’ Problem, It’s The Execution: And please I told you what stats...
- Metsie: on It’s Not The Approach That’s The Mets’ Problem, It’s The Execution: Mat what was the percentage of pitches...
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5393 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
His reasoning is that players in today’s market are pricing themselves at levels that are far more than what he believes they are worth”
Lmao, yet he gave a $12 million contract to francisco last year….. Amazing..
By the way, i do remember you mention this about a month ago or so, not sure the exact time but i am sure it was late november or early december, and some of us were wondering if this money will be spend AT ALL or just pocketed for the wilpons, of course, once again we were insulted, attack from all angles, when we attack back then we get banned, and some people were saying how it’s early in the offseason, and/or the money shouldn’t be spend just because you have it… so ….
If the team is under a mountain of debt, and having trouble meeting operating expenses, and they are using money saved on payroll to essentially keep the team afloat, that is not the wilpons pocketing money. It is what any business would do to stay solvent.
The team is carrying no debt whatsoever…
The WIlpons havedebt on the stadium and SNY but that does not affect the Met Ledger just thier own personal wealth.
no, the corporate entity that controls the mets has the debt. Not personal to the wilpons.
Still side stepping the point….
If the Wilpons sold the team the new owners would have a team that carries ZERO DEBT BURDEN!
All the Sterling Debt is tied up in Stadium and Network loans…
If they defaulted on those loans they would have to seell the Network and the stadium and they would STILL own the team!
And be debt free….
METSIE, AS FAR AS THE STADIUM DEBT IS CONCERNED, WHERE DOES THE $20M/Y NAMING RIGHTS INCOME GET ACCOUNTED FOR? ACCORDING TO STERLING ENT.(OWNERS) NOT WILPON FAMILY, U MAY RECALL THAT SHORTLY AFTER FRED BOUGHT OUT NELSON FRED TRANFERRED OWNERSHIP TO STERLING ENTERPRISES, THUS ENTERED SAUL KATZ IN HIS OFFICAL CAPACITY OF WILPON “CADDY”
@ THE TIME THE NAMING DEAL WAS ANNOUNCED IT WAS MADE AGONIZINGLY CLEAR THAT THE INCOME WAS NOT TO BE SHARED WITHIN THE NYM ORGANIZATION; BUT COMPLETELY DEDICATED TO STADIUM RELATED EXPENSES; I PRESUME THAT INCLUDES STADIUM BOND RELATED EXPENSES(INTEREST)
I can’t say exactly since I don’t know the intimate details of the Stadium and I’m sure there are more owners than just Sterling involved but it’s a pretty safe bet that the Naming Rights all go to the stadium entity not the Mets
Naming Rights are really nothing more than Stadium Advertising the Stadium sells. The panels of advertising we see throughout the stadium change depending what is happening there at the time. Some of which are SHARED with the Mets, others not..
We tend to forget more is supposed to happen there than just Met Baseball games.
It’s all Stadium Revenue and used to pay whatever bills they incurr which at this point is limited to Maintenance overhead and Debt payment. The Stadium is so new I doubt it needs much in the way of maintenance and they may have used some to bring in the walls and that also added extra seating increasing their ability to earn, But I do agree none of the naming money went to the METS. Some of the other advertising may have such as the big Subway sign that I believe would be shared. But the Mets only get a cut of SOME advertising that is there when they play. What is key though that since they are dealing with the same foks to negotiate rates for both they have a better chance of getting a deal done because whoever sells the advertising is probably the same person selling for both the stadium and the team and only how it gets recorded in the books is different.
As for transferring the Team to Sterling well you have to have a company to protect shareholders from liability. Since Fred and Saul already had a company for this they decided to make Sterling the shareholder of the Mets and the Sterling Shareholders reap whatever benefit they get THROUGH thier Sterling holdings.
Sterling is really not much more than a personal investment holding company. All the Real Estate, Team, Stadium, Network are considered INVESTMENTS of Sterling.
The only threat to the Wilpons is if Sterling itself lost all it’s holdings due to some issue but in the end the only thing that would happen is Sterling dies and Fred and Saul keep whatever money they have that is not invested in Sterling. I’m sure they both have a personal investment portfolio to go with whatever they own through Sterling.
JP Morgan owns thousands of companies but problems with one does not force them to take profits from some other to keep it going. They CAN decide to put more money into it to save thier investment if they want but they could also decide to cut thier losses and let that company die without any penalty to the rest of their holdings….
Sterling is not much different, it is sort of a Bank, Investment firm or a small time Berkshire Hathaway which is where all of Warren Buffets money is…..
If the Mets themselves got sued for a Billion dollars the Wilpons would not be forced to make up the difference they would either sell the Mets to pay the debt of file bankruptcy and never pay a penny!
And it is for this reason Picard Sued the WILPONS not the Mets themselves….
Neither the Fred, Saul, theMets, SNY or the Stadium were defendents named in that suit….
Just Sterling who took money from thier holdings and deposited it into the Madoff accounts.
I don’t think that’s exactly right, Metsie.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/ratings-for-citi-field-bonds-lowered/?partner=rss&emc=rss
On Dec. 21, Standard & Poor’s lowered its rating on the almost $700 million in bonds issued to finance Citi Field, and it said the outlook for them remains negative. The bonds are now rated BB, from BB+ before. That’s two notches below investment grade, junk bonds in the parlance of the debt market.
Jodi Hecht, an analyst at Standard & Poor’s, cited “cash flow volatility,” noting that “a large portion” of the money pledged to pay off the bonds is “game-day revenue,” which includes sales of club-seat tickets, concessions and parking. How the Mets play will affect the prospects for this revenue, she said. Standard & Poor’s “may lower the rating if cash flows continue to decline due to a combination of poor team performance, slow economic recovery, overcapacity in the New York region,” she added.
Well Srt as I said the Team gets a CUT of revenue….Who gets the other cut?
The Stadium!
What else to they share?
which includes sales of club-seat tickets, concessions and parking.
Club Seats and Lux Boxes are bought and good for ANY event that happens in the Stadium.
Whoever provides the Event gets a cut…
So the Stadium loses money when Attendance goes down thats never been in question…The Question is does fixing the Mets from losing money based on current attendance does it solve anything? NO!
As I keep telling anyone who will listen the solution to ALL of Wilpons problems be is Mets, Stadium, or Network is to get people in the seats.
That is NOT being done this COST CUTTING that everyone seems to think is imperative to financial stability will NEVER work!
They will spend less yes and make little to nothing in the proccess to pay off any loans or debts.
So just about all those businesses while seperate are co-dependent in some way…Just not OBLIGATED to solve the other’s problems and the truth is the ONLY one who can solve everyone’s problems is the Mets drawing people.
Everything we have done has worked against that goal not for it. By the time they WIN ENOUGH that people think attendance will go up well they probably will have defaulted on something already.
So to think they are in better financial shape merely because they lose less than they used to is just flat out wrong.
And of course if no one goes the Stadium will lose revenues…Cutting salary from the Mets isn’t going to solve that. Related business’ yes but little one can do to help the other financially with the exception of the TEAM drawing more.
And nothing done to date has helped that just made it worse…
I agree that winning usually solves the $$ issues.
Problem is, the Wilpons either cannot or will not invest in this team right now. As you stated, they’ve gone in the opposite direction of cost cutting to the extreme.
I didn’t have any problem with cutting that almost $150 MIL payroll and trying to strengthen the farm system. Especially when that high payroll was almost 75% invested in like 4 players. But if you can’t invest when it makes sense, then the road back to contention is going to be a long one….while crossing one’s fingers that cost cutting plan is actually going to work.
But SRT can’t you see that those highly paid players they dumped were actually part of our attendance draw and it was the lack of talent around them that wasn’t drawing enough to pay the bills?
And as I said elsewhere…
Dumping the guy we did was about the same as trading one Google stock for one Facebook stock. Sure Facebook may be the next big stock to have but a one for one swap is not getting enough….
So Beltran is about the best trade we made, Dickey is lets be honest a trade of ONE prospect who isn’t even as good as Wheeler the other kid is hardly a prospect just a guy with a cieling…
Reyes and K-Rod both returned nothing….
We have sold off our best investments and pretty much gave them away for risky ventures.
in an even trade!
Is the problem really that the Wilpons can’t afford to invest or is it that we have not showed them any reason to invest in a team we won’t go see?
Afterall they invested in all those guys you mentioned and we still said sorry we refuse to go help pay for it!
Are the unable or merely unwilling to invest in a team we won’t appreciate and help payfor unless they make it to a WS?
If we were attending games at the numbers we were in 2005 would there be any problems spending?
We drew 2.82 Million that year….More than 2010-2012…
(2008 and 2009 were special case years where Stadium was drawing on it’s own so I don’t take those numbers as seriously sustainable or REAL)
‘But SRT can’t you see that those highly paid players they dumped were actually part of our attendance draw and it was the lack of talent around them that wasn’t drawing enough to pay the bills?’
No argument from me on this. Only thing is, I think that problem went back farther than this current FO. When Omar came on board, he had a good plan. Somewhere after 2006, he got off track.
Fast forward to end of 2010 and we find the franchise with one foot in bankruptcy.
- New stadium revenues didn’t come close to expectations.
-Wilpons lost most of the Mets operating money in the Madoff debacle.
- After the 2010 season, the Mets were in far worse shape than the Wilpons were admitting to the fans. Hence, the initial, secretly borrowing 25 MIL from MLB, firing of Omar, slashing 50 MIL from the payroll/operating expenses. I still believe getting that loan and firing Omar was part of the deal the Wilpons cut with Selig to try and retain the team and not have to sell. SA was probably part of that deal as well. Otherwise, why pay 2 GMs when they were in such financial straits?
- At this point in time it was about the Wilpons holding on and nothing but. They brought in minority investors – something they vowed just 2 years prior they would never do. They needed a 40 MIL bridge loan just to tied them over until they got those investors.
I had not problem with dumping KRod and that huge, expensive option. As it turns out, that was a good move b/c no way he’s worth that kind of money going forward. And I don’t think many Met fans missed him.
Trading Beltran – one of my favorite Mets – had to be done. We get on the FO for letting Reyes walk for nothing (and rightfully so). It would have been the same with Beltran. No way he was coming back to the Mets so that Carlos-for-Wheeler deal was very good, IMO.
Dickey…I’m still bummed that this organization is in the position of having to trade him.
And I think that’s where we part ways with our opinion. I’m convinced the Mets are in worse financial shape than you apparently are. I think if not for Selig, we very possibly would have new owners right now. That and if we had 1 or 2 position players on the farm ready to come up – and I’m not talking about fringe MLs, or platoon type players – Dickey might not have been sacrificed.
I do agree with you about revenue. And the only way that’s going up is to field a winning team – sooner rather than later if the Wilpons want to retain ownership. They have to give a little – invest some – in order for that to happen. Doesn’t appear they’re going down that road. Instead, they’re going down the longer path of trying to rebuild the franchise from the bottom up, which is going to take more time to accomplish the goal of a contending team.
Off Track on what?
Rebuilding the Minors with guys like Niese, Davis, Harvey, Gee, Tejada and Flores? Not to mention Duda, Pelfrey, Parnell, Mejia, Familia…All that with just 3 First round picks to work with?
Every 1st round pick he made has made the MLB within two years or less…
You expect Nimmo anytime soon?
So what track did he go off?
He did what he said he would do and only NOW people start to realize it.
He went and bought a team to compete with while he rebuilt the Minors and it worked. Not only did he compete he rebuilt the Minors.
TO say well they were not highly rated on BAs list when those kids were down on the farm says more about BA’s List than anything to do with the quality of Kids and players Omar brought into the system.
So I don’t know what track you think he went off of in 2006…Giving away very late 1st rounders to get GREAT players and go for a win is something ALL good teams and GMs do, Phillies did it and got much less than we ever did. Braves did it too just to get Glavine back when we were done with him!
And I wish you would stop mentioning Madoff because it is well established they didn’t lose anything on Madoff and the only thing they lost due to him getting caught was a Quick and easy way to make EASY money at THEFT levels which no other team has either and it didn’t bankrupt them…
I get it you think the Wilpons are to blame for the lack of spending but the fact is the ONLY spending this team has done since Sandy got here was at the BEHEST of the WIlpons…
If they didn’t step in Sandy would have gotten rid of Wright too and how do I know? Because he got rid of Dickey who didn’t cost half what Wright would cost all because the Wilpons didn’t care what Sandy did with him….
He also has 25 Mil to spend so BYE bYE the Wilpons are handcuffing him…
Sandy CHOOSES not to spend it…Maybe he has a good reason maybe he doesn’t but what is clear is SANDY CHOSE NOT TO SPEND!
And the WIlpons are not holding him back from doing so it is his own PHILISOPHICAL beliefs that is doing it.
IMO, THE ISSUE WAS REALLY NEVER THE QUALITY OF PLAYERS OMAR SNARED; BUT THE QUANYITY HE WAS ALLOWED. CERTAINLY AT THE TIME HE SIGNED, SANTANA WAS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE BEST SP AROUND; HOWEVER AS THE NYY, PHILLIES & BRAVES HAVE REPEATEDLY PROVEN SIGGNING 1 TOP SP IS NEVER ENOUGH U BETTER HAVE AROUND 3 OF THEM AT LEAST, I DON’T BELIEVE THE WILPONS EVER BELIEVED IN THE VALUE OF REDUNDANCIES AS WE ALL KNOW DURING THE GRIND OPF 162 IT’S PRICELESS AS WELL AS A NECESSITY ALL TOO ODFTEN BE IT WILLIE, JERRY OR TERRY MINIMUM WAGERS WERE CARRYING THE BURDEN WHILE MULTIMILLIONARES WERE IN THEW TRAINER’S WHIRLPOOL OR SURGEONS TABLE.
THE COMPLETE LACK OF CONTENDING COMPETANT POSITIONAL & LINEUP DEPTH WAS THE DOWNFALL OF MANY GOOD “ON-PAPER” BEGINNINGS! FRED, SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING DOOLED OUT BUDGET INCREASES ONE PLAYER @ A TIME BE IT FOSTER, PIAZZA, BELTRAN, SANTANA, WAGNER, DELGADO; WHERE NO ALOANCE WAS EVER MADE FOR SIGNIFICANT BENCH DEPTH BE IT ACTUALLY ON THE MLB BENCH OR SYMBOLICXLY A TOP BONUS BABY; PROSPECT IN THR MINORS OSTENSIBLY A TRAIN/PLANE TICKET AWAY OR SEATED ON THE “VITUAL MLB BENCH
ALL TOO FREQUENTLY A WILPON BANQUET FEATURED TIFFANY CENTERPIECES SURROUNDED BY PLASTIC CUTLERTY & PAPER PLATES.
“SIGGNING 1 TOP SP IS NEVER ENOUGH”
BINGO!
If we had signed Halliday instead of Bay 2010 and maybe even 2011 is a much different story.
That has been what the Yankees did to stay in the playoffs for 20 years.
Unfortunatly Halliday didn’t want to come here and there was no one else available without trading all these guys we love right now like Harvey, Davis and Niese.
The key to sustained success is to build the strongest rotation you can and then put Average to great players behind them.
Unfortunatly we just traded a Cy Young Pitcher for kids which you can tell worked out so good for the Blue Jays they gave up the guy they got for Halliday to get a Cy Young Pitcher back!
Metsie does not understand the concept of adding to payroll being real $ (checks to cover), and the big jump in attendance being theoretical (as in, may or may not happen). And when you can’t cover the the check, you don’t write it.
Winning almost definitely will jump attendance. Question is, how much winning will it take to make enough of a difference? And of course, there is no direct correlation to spending more right now and winning more in 2013. Plus of course, spending say $10mill/year on Victorino and going from 74 to 76 wins (if that) is not doing jack diddle to increase fannies in the seats (certainly not $10mill in revenue worth!)
Oh I understand it far better than YOU understand that an ALL STAR generates more revenue than some kid in AA and AAA does!
For every 160K of Attendance daily you earn 20 Mil per year!
No one is going to come out to see d’Arnaud until he proves himself….
If you don’t believe that then tell us how many tickets you bought when you heard we traded for him….
Hi ifthevanisrockin,
Winning might not always bring all the fans back if the cost of the ticket is out of reach for so many. That, I think, is the core of the issue.
It’s not just the roster payroll that is dependent upon increased attendance but the operation of the entire organization – a huge undertaking. In order to continue doing that moving into a smaller ball park capacity, ticket prices have to go up tremendously. And that is what happened in 2009 – less fans but way more revenue. The Mets drew over 4 million their last two seasons at Shea – but look at how much more revenue they made in 2009 at a Citi Field with approximately 13,000 less seats:
2007: $139.2 million
2008: $151.7 million
2009: $263.4 million
2010: $189.2 million
2011: $142.7 million
And note they wound up netting $112 million more in revenue while drawing nearly 900,000 less fans than they did in 2008:
2007: 3,853,955 fans, 85.3% of capacity
2008: 4,042,045 fans, 89.5% of capacity
2009: 3,168,571 fans, 93.6% of capacity
2010: 2,559,738 fans, 75.6% of capacity
2011: 2,352,596 fans, 69.5% of capacity
The problem, as brought out in the attached study, is that the Mets windfall came with the cost of premium seating and season ticket plans with a hefty price tag plus concessions and parking. Many fans who came that initial season admitted they could not come as often as they would want to because the high cost precluded them from doing so.
So, if the team begins to win again, how many would be able to afford to go and see them? A lot more if the ticket prices alone remained what they were in 2012 – which included many discounts and free bees. But one can do the math and see that 93.6 percent capacity in 2012 could not have yielded anything near the revenue they achieved in 2009 – when it was estimated that an estimated daily capacity of 95 percent would enable the organization to break even fiscally.
The Mets already raised ticket prices in 2013. Dynamic pricing will allow them to raise the cost even more if the demand is there. But for them to generate enough revenue to field a competitive team and not lose money, most of us will then need to spend per game close to the equivalent of what the Mets were asking (“squeezing” in my book) of us back in 2009.
41% of the seats were designated “premium,” with an average price of $149.52 back in 2009.
How many would be willing to pay that much for the privilege of not being turned away from those exclusive entrances?
http://patrickfloodblog.com/2011/10/02/the-problem-of-attendance/
JOEY, AS IT RELATRES TO 2009, AS FAR AS I RECALL EVERY BRAND SPANKING NEW BALLPARK HAS SHOWN THE SAME UPTICK EFFECT ITS’ INNAUGRAL SEASON; HOWEVER THE REAL SUCCESS IS MAINTAINING THE PROFIT LEVEL THE BALLPARK PRODUCES UNTO ITSELF; AS FAR AS CUITI UIS CONCERNED, IT BEGAN WITH A LEG UP ON THE BREAK EVEN SCORECARD INASMYCH AS IT BENIFITS FROM THE SINGLE LARGEST NAMING RIGHTS DEAL IN HISTORY TO THE TUNE OF $400M FROM CITIGROUP AS 20M/Y FOR 20Y COVERS A TON OF BOND PAYMENTS ESP @ THE PREFERRED RATE THE PRE-MADOFF SCANDAL OF ILLUSION AS STERLING APPEARED TO BE A HIGHLY PROFITABLE & SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS ENTERPRISE THE INFLATED MADOFF NUMBERS DISPELED THAT ILLUSION PROVING IT WAS MERELY A MIRAGE, THAT WHILE STERLING ENTERPRISES & THEIR EMPLOYEES LOST LITTLE IN ACTUAL HARD CURRENCY, THEIR VALUE “ON PAPER” AS A PORTFOLIO EVAPORATED.
Correct 62!
Both 2008 and 2009 attenance figures had as much to do with the stadiums as anything to do with the baseball on the field.
2008 they had a good baseball season right up until the choke but they could have won only 30 games that year and they would have sold 4Mil tickets merely because of ALL of the people who have many MANY fond memories of Shea Stadium wanting to go see it one last time. Vist an old friend so to speak.
2009 The NEW Stadium was a Major draw despite some bad baseball because everyone wanted to take a tour of our new home away from home.
I dont think the inflated attendance numbers should be completely believed AND there has to be a correlation between the attendance numbers, the premium seating % and the SNY viewership numbers. It would, from a business point, stand to reason that physical attendance numbers may not be all that important if the advertising income money makes up for it on the back end with SNY money flow. They may have intentionally raised the numbers of premium seats in the stadium to satisfy the execs at SNY so they can have better tv viewership ratings which= higher advertising fees for companies wanting commercial time slots. Higher SNY ratings = the ability to charge more for 5, 10 15, & 30 second advertising slots. Im sure the accounting departments have that all sorted out. So, lets say 10,000 seats go empty on average, but those same people are sitting at home either watching the games directly on SNY in the immediate market OR paying DirecTV $250 a season for the MLB package in areas outside of SNY coverage, then SNY ratings go up & they are able to charge thousands more for advertising slots. It may have even been a stipulation in the new SNY contract that was composed to have the stadium convert more seats to “premium” seats even if they went unsold.(BTW, those unsold seat costs are more than deducted from taxable revenue on 4/15)
Let me back that up w/a little info. I am a diehard Mets fan since 1973 and a native NewYorker who has since transplanted to the St. Petersburg area. I go to Rays games to entertain myself and root for the Rays when they play my so hated Yankees. Here comes the info: the Rays draw squat at the stadium unless the Yanks or BoSox are in town YET they have the #1 rated TV rights in the major leagues and top 10 in sports! They obviously get money from the teams in the big markets through luxury tax, but they makes TONS of money off of their TV rights. They just gave Evan Longoria(who obviously is comparable to D.Wright in statistical numbers and their franchise face) 100 million dollar contract extension ! How?
NOT from park revenues, they are DEAD last, 30th, in attendance at 19,255. And trust me that is a super inflated number because for most games there barely 5,000 people there. they do it with their TV advertising fees and ratings. Ex: They charge $175,000 a season for 1/2 inning of banner advertising behind home plate. Why? Because of the weight it carries through the exposure on their tv network which is viewed by thousands of consumers per game. Again, ratings numbers correlate into higher advertising fees, if their ratings were not good, they’d only be able to charge maybe $50,000 per season. (BTW: 1/2 inning at $175,000=18 different companies per game, per season paying 175K = 3.1million on those two signs alone). Crazy, huh?
So lets not underestimate the direct, or indirect, correlation between the team $$$ & their networks $$$$, and the way a big percent of money is moved around and the owners(all owners) constant complaining about how much money they lose a season, thats BS.
Hi Joe,
I agree with you. I posted this before about the real money in baseball is television either through the selling of television rights or the owning of a regional sports network. In the case of Sterling Equities they are majority owners of both (like the Yankees and Red Sox). That was why Fred Wilpon refused to include SNY in any minority stock.
It also shows how bad the economic situation is with the Mets if their year to year operating deficit couldn’t be offset by the revenue generated by SNY. Oh, and you are so right about inflated attendance figures – they include no-shows and there were plenty of them the past two seasons and after the ticket sale, there is then the loss of the remaining average of $241 spent by each fan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
How do you know this? What’s the source of your information?
Joey D. – Good find on that article on Sports Networks $$$.
Id venture to say that if somehow government policy banned the segregation of sports coverage on cable tv and converted it back to public access, ALL sports teams would go bankrupt.
I thought they said that even though they deferred some contract money (Bay), they were still booking it against 2013. So it does not actually increase what they have to spend otherwise, just helps cashflow.
Pretty certain that’s just an accounting measure and not a real dollars amount. They are counting it for tax purposes, but they in fact are not really paying $21 million, only $6 million. The $15 million that was deferred is real money and is in hand and up to them to reinvest this year if they wanted to, or just use it to pay other expenses. The IRS allows for that.
Magic with numbers, isn’t it wonderful. Add money you’re not spending to the 2013 payroll and let the fans think you’re being generous. Sad part is most of them think just that.
How they are recording it if for Luxury Tax purposes, since we are far below the Tax threshold it makes sense to report it as expenses this year instead of next year when Salary will go up and who knows what we might be spending.
Incorrect. Salaries are not applied for luxury tax purposes based upon when they are paid nor through fancy accounting. The luxury tax uses APV of the entire guaranteed contract including signing bonuses. Hence Bay signed a $66M contract with a $3M buoyout iver 4 years meaning he counts as $17.25M for luxury tax purposes each year. He is off the books at the end of 2013 for this purpose.
This is my understanding as well. Rubin reported as such based on discussions w/team officials regarding their accounting methods.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/59445/part-ii-whats-payroll-now-whats-next
Everyone should quit worrying about how much the Mets have to spend. At this point why does it really matter. They are dumping salary where ever possible and looking towards the future. It’s annoying to see people ask that same question over and over. It’s obvious they are not going to spend big, which they shouldn’t.
LOL – Are you Fred’s accountant? Whose future are they looking out for, the team’s or the owners bank accounts? They shouldn’t spend big? Why don’t you move to Pittsburgh? You are their kind of fan.
As if spending money gets the Mets anything. Remember the last time the Mets went to play October?
Gets you more than Rick Ankiel or whoever we will get because we refuse to even spend enough to get Hairston doesn’t it…
I dont think Ankiel would be that bad of an option, even if he sat on the bench as a 4th OF. I like him & think he would be a positive influence on the bench & in the clubhouse. Depends on how much $$$ he wants though, of course. You never know, he may blow up in spring training, get a starting spot in RF or CF and have a great year. We’ve all seen weirder stuff happen in baseball.
The payroll is going to be no more than 80 million. Jeff Wilpon is at best an ignoramus and at worst a potential criminal. I don’t believe a word he says nor should any intelligent Mets fan.
The Mets are under a mountain of debt. They put an inferior product on the field yet feel like they are entitled to charge through the nose. You can’t have it both ways- act like you own a team in the largest media market or don’t, but don’t insult or intelligence.
Now on the other side of the ledger, you can’t say you want to focus on young players and the draft when you spend no money there either. So the plan is- there is no plan. It’s to try to sell the concept of we hope things will work out. But spend your money, sheep, you’re part of the problem.
I have to agree with you cant keep b*tching about how the Wilpons are pocketing money and not re-investing in the team–then go out every year and buy a weekend package of tickets for the games.
Thats like a parent who knows there kid is a Meth head and will spend every dime he/she gets on drugs but the parent continues to give them there cash…..
Basically supporting there drug habit…In the Wilponzi’s case you’d be supporting there decisions, which is to pocket the money
But the issue them becomes…Lets say y TEACH them that lesson and the decide to spend again….
Will there be any money TO spend?
This is why a Boycott is not the answer in my mind….
When they did spend we abandoned them merely based on missing a playoffs in the last week of a season followed by one injury proned year….
And while I have no issue with someone saying I will not support this Horrible team I have to also admit if we are not willing to stick with them when they DO the right thing then what have they really got to lose by doing the wrong thing?
This is why in the past I have played devils advocate for the Wilpons, not due to any like or love of them but merely on the basis that when they DID spend and give us a good team many fans were fickele, Decided they were going to PUNISH someone for falling one game and one week short two year in a row and cut off the one option they could have used to make 2011 and 2012 worth watching…the FUNDING!
Easy to blame others but in the end all this financial issue has little to nothing to do with Madoff and everything to do with the fact they spent to make 2005-2011 meaningfull and we jumped ship in the middle before the bills on that were paid.
Im not telling anyone to Boycott…Im saying you cant b*tch about wanting the Wilpons to sell the team yet continue to support them…Thats all….
I dont think Mets fans abandon the Mets they still turned profits with those teams. There was new enthusiasm every year. And if you feel they did abandon the team it was not because they werent successful with those teams. They abandoned because the Mets became dysfunctional under Jeff Wilpons watch….The franchise became a joke…The way they fired Randolph, then Jerry Manuel wasnt the right fit for this team. It was upper management, that started with JEFFY boy….
When I look at a team like the NY Giants I trust them even in the 90′s when we werent very successful in between the championship years of the 80′s and 2000′s…..Because I trusted that they would do what it took to put the best product possible out on the field. And they put people who were Football men in charge and gave them full reigns.
The one thing that I give Sandys regime credit for is that he has kept Jeff Wilpon at bay from the public eye until recently at the winter meetings….it rarely if ever works out when the Owner of the team try to make decisions on the team….
See…George Steinbrenner and the Yankees they became successful when George was banned from the team and baseball men ran the franchise.
-Jerry Jones Cowboys…ever since Jim Johnson left Jerry has been running the team and look at the drought theyve been in of not making the playoffs
-Daniel Snyder Redskins…He gave Shanahan full reigns and now they are starting to show improvement
-James Dolan…hired Donnie Walsh and kept his nose out of the decision making for the most part and things changed for the better
Point is Fred and Jeff is a cancer to this team….Anytime the Owner of a Sports franchise wants to be more than the owners sh*t gets on everything….
Just look at the poll that ESPN did people cant stand the Wilpons….They were disliked even when the Mets were winning.
Again, My thing is I can support the Mets by watching them on TV. Im not gonna complain about how much I hate how the franchise is being run and the costs to go to watch mediocre players then be a hypocrite and buy season tickets or a weekend package to go to the games. Other fans can do as they please but my opinion is it doesnt make sense to complain about something and go out and support it to each its own.
BBLB we aren’t far apart here ….
I wasn’t suggesting you favored a Boycott just givng the otherside of the coin to that as well…
No the ones who want WIlpon go can’t expect him to go if they keep supporting him, Cant get rid of them supporting the GM who is helping them keep the team either….
On the flip side you can’t complain they don’t spend if your not going either….
Can’t blame the Wilpons for lack of money nor can you blame Madoff for them not being SO RICH they can blow 50 Mil a year of personal funds to subsidize a team the fans themselves won’t subsidize….
There are two sides to that coin is all I was trying to get accross….
If you don’t like the way the WIlpons are running things then you should not support them nor the guy they hired to do thier bidding.
If you LIKE the way they are running the show then pay to see what you like….
If you don’t like how they run it due to not spending then you should go so they have the money to spend.
The problem is people are expecting who OWNS the team to solve the problem before they will go.
Look at all the folks who think only WINNING makes Attendance….
Well those are the fans who don’t go unless they are winning (bandwagoners) and have no right to bitch about what they spend to make a team they aren’t paying to go see….
So easy to point fingers over who is to blame for the financial conditions of this team and the reason there are so many targets is because most people need to go into the bathroom to point at the right person responsible.
We have met the Enemy and it is ourselves….
LOL
the same wilpons who refinanced the SNY loan in 2010 and took in over 150 mil in dividends…
The Wilpons problem is BEYOND just being about money…that is the fundamental issue you seem to ignore
The Mets arent going to spend that money since there is nothing to spend it on. I foresee a couple of $1M-$2M contracts being added (maybe an experienced reliever and a 5th starter since I do not believe Alderson is ready to hand the job to Mejia), but that is about it. The only way to increase the payroll at this time is to make a trade but the Mets really have nothing to trade. There assets are as follows: Wright (basically untradeable with his contract), Niese (insane to trade him), Ike (see Niese), Harvey, Wheeler, and, perhaps, Flores (who most likely needs another year to increase his value and move him after 2013). That leaves Wheeler or Harvey as trade pieces and does the organization want to do that? Most likely not.
$5 million of Santana’s salary is differed, so add another $5 mil available this year.
What happens next year when Buck, Santana and Francisco come off the books? Will the Mets simply say, “none of the free agents are worth what they are asking so we’ll get by with a $40 million payroll.” There’s a big difference between signing a Josh Hamilton for 5 years versus a Cody Ross for 3 years. Oakland and Tampa operate the way they do because of the limitations of their stadiums and TV deals which wouldn’t really change no matter who owned them.
That’s exactly what they will say. Most Met fans will buy into it too. Their dopey that way. And nobody brings up all the money they are gonna make from the All Star Game.
They’d better start opening up the wallet and spending some of that money….
‘Money coming off the books end of 2013′, as we keep hearing it….doesn’t only have to be spent on FAs. It can be spent on IFAs, such as Alvarez who I think would be just the type player they should take a chance on.
Also can spend that money on established MLs with a contract via a trade.
“It can be spent on IFAs…”
But that will not GENERATE revenue until 3-4years from then.
And while your waiting attendance declines, they lose more money, have to cut even more salary while they wait and then those IFAs you bought are useless because you can’t get the talent to support around them….
Investing in the future is a good thing but only provided you actually CASH IN on those investments at some point.
This is why the A’s have never won anything since Moneyball was the plan because they keept putting off today for tomorrow and tomorrow never comes and even when it does you don’t have the money or investment capitol to make it a winner!
I think you misunderstood SRT….The IFA she’s talking about is 24yr old OF Dariel Alvarez whom is a cuban defector.
His profile is almost similar to that of Yoenis Cespedes from last year minus the kick azz highlight/workout video. He is major league ready and the money used to sign him wouldnt come out of there IFA pool money since he is over 23yrs old.
Well IFA nd A NAME are tw different things…
And while he may appear MLB ready I’m sure he would at minimum start in AAA to get used to american Pitchers
‘The IFA she’s talking about is 24yr old OF Dariel Alvarez whom is a cuban defector. ‘
Correct.
‘Yoenis Cespede’
There were many of us Met fans that wanted them to throw their ring in the hat on Cespedes – but knew b/c of the money situation that would never happen.
What a year he had….
Yeah I was one of those who wanted Cespedes but with the route Sandy claimed the team was going in I thought 20yr OF Jorge Soler who had the most upsode arccording to scouts would be the best bet whom signed a 9yr $30M deal with the Cubs….Or even Yasiel Puig who the Dodgers signed….All were needs Right handed Outfielders with power bats with high upside and filled a need and wouldnt cost us anything but money….Unfortunately the Mets werent in on either of them
Dariel isnt quite on Cespedes level but he is solid plays all 3 OF positions well, said to have a very strong arm. And has improved every year in the Cuban league with the bat…If signed he’d automatically would be our best Outfielder….I rather spend the money on these type of players than a Hairston.
Well SRT if thats who you meant it is a different story….
People think those of us who trash Sandy hate kids but the issue is the kids he targets are all so far away as opposed to getting a kid who is pretty much ready right away.
This team needs help NOW and if it got it that would buy the time needed to worry about what you might have 4-6 years from now.
Some of those kids drafted young might be far away from getting to the show and helping the Mets, but they might be established enough on the prospect list in a year or two (depending on their level when drafted), to be used as trade chips for those established MLs we need.
It’s all pieces together that make up the puzzle.
It is really simple logic that takes years to implement. Yes, new draft picks take 4 or so years to come up and make an impact (if they do) most likely. So you are supposed to have the 2008 or so picks hitting now, and the 2012 picks are simply replenishing the bottom of the pipeline. THat way, if they draft another HS OF in 2012, he is the next geenration of a 2008 pick that could be graduating.
Srt I get what your saying and don’t take this as a slight to you personally…
When people say what you said, ALL I hear is ….
MIGHT
MIGHT
YEAR OR TWO….
Not sure IF not sure when…basically not sure when truth is there are things out there you CAN be sure about.
Lets face the facts that most of our drafted kids didn’t even generate the buzz that Ike being picked did and he had NONE!
I can accept what you (and not you anyone) said on one condition, You hadn’t already told me that all the kids we HAVE drafted are useless and can’t be traded for something good…
Because if they can’t then chaces are the MIGHT and MAYBE and YEAR or Two are no different than they are for kids who already have gone through that!
I’m not expert at evaluating talent. I come here and a couple of other sites to read up on the draft picks and minor league development of the kids. So I really have no idea if any of our recent draft picks are going to make an impact or not.
Hindsight is 20/20 but we obviously didn’t cash in when the hype was high on kids like Lastings Milledge and FMart. Held onto them too long, turned out to be more or less a bust.
Right now we’ve got more pitchers predicted to make an impact than position players. I’m hoping we can turn one or two of them into trades for other needs.
NO ONE is an EXPERT SRT!
Remember that…Experts said F-Mart was can’t miss!
Experts sai Generation K was the second coming of Searver, Koosman and Ryan….
There is no such thing as an Expert!
Prediction is not based on facts, it’s based on beliefs.
And the truth is you are JUST as qualified to judge talent as anyone else (these Experts) if you had the chance to see them.
You Like Reuben Tejada and think he is a good player I bet….
Did you have to work in Baseball for 20 years to know that?
EXPERTS said F-Mart was a better player than Tejada….
Yet Tejada is the one playing in the MLB
They aren’t any better than you at judging talent the only thing they have that you do not is ACCESS. Someone plays thier plane fair, hotel and Salary to go see them.
And if they paid you I bet you do as well as any of them.
It doesn’t take a genius to say this kid has a good arm, is fast, Has a good eye at the plate or hits for power….
Doesn’t take a genius to see the guy has a quirky delivery that seems to not flow that could be a future injury risk.
As far as Milledge and F-Mart are concerned no matter how much Hype there may have been about them everyone saw what we saw which is neither was ready to be on an MLB team.
We didn’t think so and there is no reason to think they would have seen anything different.
This is why I get on those who cite BA rankings, who goes based on Cieling instead of accomplishment.
I’m sorry but Havens is not a better prospect than Flores! Yet he was ahead of Flores last year. Wasn’t better than Nimmo yet Nimmo was #3 and Flores #10
It’s all just based on what the BELIEF of what a good player looks like and that changes from person to person….
And whenever someone cites a MAYBE as opposed to an IS…They are setting themselves up to be wrong in Hindsight!
Hindsight is not a practice it is merely the reality that the PREDICTION is judged by!
You say WAIT, We Wait and then when the prediction is wrong people dismiss it as Hindsight…
All because they think like you do that there are EXPERTS that know something you can’t determine on your own but COULD if you got an expenses paid chance to see what they saw!
The only way I can see this team spending more this year is taking on salary in a trade. The FAs available all suck, Hairston included.
Is that an admission that you were wrong for saying it’s only December 1st when the good players were all coming off the board while Sandy sat on his hands? lol
Nope. It’s a statement on how the market developed. I’d love to get Bourne, but that ain’t happening based on losing a pick. Other than that, who would you want to see? Swisher? yuk.
It was a weak FA class in general, so didn’t expect a whole lot. Trading will be the way to go. And yes, we still have 47 days until ST, so there is time.
Still have Time for WHAT exactly????
You just stated how free agency sucked, time isnt gonna change that….And we have nothing left to trade….Sandy isnt willing to trade the assets we do have so time for WHAT???
The only way we can get an OF is via trade with a team that has a stocked OF those teams are D’backs, Athletics,Bluejays,Pirates,Nationals and the Dodgers.
With that said, I wouldnt trade for any of the Dodgers Outfielders on the major league roster. They are owed too much money and wont live up to their deals, with the exception being Kemp but he is a pipe dream. Dodgers do however have 2 minor league Outfielders with promise Yasiel Puig and Joc Pederson whom are blocked. And they are interested in Parnell.
Jessep may be more qualified to answer that question because he’s the one that keeps saying there’s still time. Yet he never proposes what delightful things will be there for us when time runs out. So what gives Jessep? Enlighten us all.
OH don’t worry….If and when Sandy decided to sign someone Jessup will come up with a reason for loving the signing and how great a move it is….
But not Until Sandy shows him what move is genius!
Hairston was the most productive OF we had last year, so what does that say about the present outfield?
It says “we need a new outfield”.
It says, “getting rid of Pagan was a bad idea” too.
I think Jeff Wilpon is full of it. I think Mets payroll this year is going to be more like 80MM rather than 100MM. Look at the numbers above. Remember, the Wilpons claimed an approx. 25MM loss on Mets operations last year and a 80MM payroll is more of a breakeven point on Mets operations for the Wilpons and their new minority partners. I also agree with Joe D. on Jason Bay and not the Mets FO spin that Jason Bay’s contract was restructured and he was shown the door mainly for mental relief. What a crock! The Wilpons are looking for financial relief not mental relief. The way I read and interpreted that matter from Heyman was that 15MM of the 21MM owed to Bay next year was deferred into 2014 and 2015 as Joe D points out above. I think Sandy has more like 5-7MM left to spend not 25MM.
Agree. The Wilpons aren’t restructuring that SNY deal for nothing.
They might have weathered the immediate storm but there’s no way they’re even close to this team being solvent. Those bonds and debt owed on the stadium is going to come due soon enough. Unless revenue goes up, payroll will have to go down. Or my personal fantasy, which is they finally throw in the towel and sell the team.
SRT,
“Or my personal fantasy, which is they finally throw in the towel and sell the team.”
I think thats every Mets fans fantasy….hell I have wet dreams thinking about it.
That would be such a burden lifted off of Mets Nations back
Right now…if they dont add anyone…its set to be 61-69 million !
Why do you waste your time on posts like this?
We have a GM who thinks he knows what players are worth multi year deals and which ones are not.
Multi year deals – D.J. Carrasco and Frank Francisco.
A GM who thinks he understand player values.
Francisco 2 years $12 million, Dickey 2 years $16 million.
Here’s a better question. How come nobody else posted that article about how the Wilpons are the most loathed sports figures in New York? Not newsworthy enough or just that blogs are too afraid to lose their access?
It was posted here at MMO….
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/12/espn-wilpons-among-most-loathed-sports-figures-in-new-york.html
Still on the front page, my friend.
I do see you wrote no one else, though. Do you mean anyone but ESPN or any other writers?
Because I don’t see much to be said. People hate the Wilpons because they feel that they are restraining Sandy. It’s a common opinion. And some blame them just for bringing in Sandy to save money.
But yeah…people hate the Wilpons. That’s about all there is to say lol
Blah blah blah….
One second everyone is pissed he ain’t spending on players because he feels they aren’t worth it.
Then they bring up giving Fransisco 12 million and say that was a bad deal.
Well you can’t have it both ways you either want him to overpay or you don’t. I personally don’t want him to overpay. I want him to find a good deal.
It’s just ridiculous to get on him for not going out and wasting resources on mediocre players that you have to pay all star money to. That’s exactly what will get the Mets into the red again.
Cuts both ways doesn’t it?
You can’t say don’t spend or spend on cheap players because buying good ones have a chance tobust when all you did was spend money on something that is SURE to bust!
6 Mil IS cheap for a closer…because you have to be a pretty uselss closer to get that little…
Better to spend 12 Mil one year to get a good closer and hope he helps you win enough or is good enough to get 12 Mil in ticket sales the next year!
If he busts you wasted 12 Mil and one season….
By going cheap you wasted 12 Mil and TWO seasons….
I would rather lose only ONE season if both are going deals are going to be busts.
Uh oh its Sandy Alderson Watch Dog TruthsaboutMurphy oops I mean Buddy….lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“One second everyone is pissed he ain’t spending on players because he feels they aren’t worth it.
Then they bring up giving Fransisco 12 million and say that was a bad deal.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Uhhhhhh….Thats his job Genius???? Thats his job to spend the money wisely how has he done so far in 2+ years of doing that???
Of course he’s gonna get criticized for paying Frank Frank for 2 yrs $12M then scoffs at how other GM’s spend there money.
How can 1 GM price the open market??? Answer is he cant……..
So for him to say, “hey teams are overpaying players” is ridiculous because that is the essence of FREE AGENCY the highest bidder gets the goods…teams bid against each other and they set the market….
Its just like Ebay and Sandy seems to be the guy who puts the first bid in for $0.99 cents then when the price goes to $2.00 he’s out and says, “oh they are crazy thats too much money for a 80inch Samsung TV lol
I think you have to figure in all the players on the 40man Roster, not just the 25 man roster…it will add (I’m guessing here) about 7-10mil more on the total number…but it’s all about how they want to present it and who they are presenting it too…
…but don’t forget, Sandy was able to get a nice raise for one of his lieutenants…not sure why he got a raise, it wasn’t performance based because any player Sandy and team has added has not over performed their salary or added much in value to the team.
…and that might include any signing bonuses to FA’s (ha) or draft picks.
So we know not much bonus money is going to FA’s but it might just mean that Sandy could spend more money in the draft this year…maybe he’ll sign 60% of his picks!
I do know that figuring out a team’s payroll isn’t as easy as just adding up the salary of every player on the roster or going to Cots (which is what I do)…
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/national-league/new-york-mets/
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tfJWfaPG4VXbDyBscIZf1MQ&output=html
the draft pick issue was misleading. Other than Stanky (sitll an odd situation) most of the rest were late round picks that usually quickly become churn and disappear.
what is key though is they did not have space for them all, even after reinstating the low level team for 2013. Remember, they have a lot of overseas teams, and if those have guys ready for the states, they need roster spots also.
they also have been effectively hoarding prospects recently, so fewer open spots there.
And finally, they signed a huge # of IFAs, and they need roster spots too. So overall, counting the IFAs, they signed a comparable # of new players to other teams, they just came from different sources.
so bottom line, they have full rosters for next year, and obviously felt that the late round picks were not going to be worth more than the guys they already have available (such os guys graduating from the Dominican leagues).
all that together, and it is not as simple as saying they did not sign some draft picks, so they must be evil/broke/cheap/stupid.
“usually quickly become churn and disappear”
Yeah those guys like Pujols, Hernandez and Piazza…..
“what is key though is they did not have space for them all”
Sure they did they had just as many MiL Affiliates as everyone else did….
The club they decided to close (then reopen…flip flop) was an EXTRA affiliate most teams don’t maintain!
So this crap about having no place to put them is pure and utter bunk!
the rosters are full, even having extra spots/teams. So yes, correct, they did not have space for more late round picks without getting rid of guys they already have.
And fine job finding the 2% or so of late round picks that become impact ML players, as opposed to the 98% that never even make the majors for any kind of career.
They were full on every other team in the league as well….
They found room…So explain how THEY could find room with the same number of affiliates as we had….
Your just insisting on this lie about there being room….
The Mets had 6 US minor league affiliates in 2012 – which is the number most MLB teams field.
Only very few of them carry a 7th club – like the Mets will do again in 2013.
Also, don’t think any other org. has two teams in the DSL like the Mets do.
So counting those two teams, the Mets had among the most farm teams in the majors, even without the complex team in the GCL.
Still it was an odd decision to cut the GCL team – and then have the youngest Appy League roster in the league with kid players getting beat up that should have started out in the complex league.
Of course, signing only half the draft ( though mostly not the latter half), made sense without having the extra team around and still having two DSL teams.
What I don’t get is the obsession with the 2nd rounder Stankiewicz.
Sure, he’s a promising young arm. But the Mets keep that very pick one spot later for their 2013 draft and thus have a higher budget then – without the benefit of a supplemental pick this time. And it’s not like Stankiewicz has suddenly busted out to elite status, Baseball America recently rated him the 66th best college prospect for the 2013 draft – which means he’s still going to be drafted in a similar spot like in 2012 in all likelihood.
The main point here is that no other team (who had as many affiliates s we did had an issue signing thier draft…
And while YES we get a comparable pick this year who exactly do you expect to be there this year that we couldn’t have drafted last year?
I mean you can draft a kid out of HS who is entering this draft that couldn’t last year? A Junior High Kid?
You could have taken whoever you want to take this year just as easily last year, had a year to develop them and keep them away from everyone else….
This is not like the NFL where only Juniors can declare and a extra pick next year gets you a shot at different guys who just graduated to Junior or Seniorand Newly declared eligible.
The fact they drafted and then refused to sign points to an irregularity…
Either the guy had some medical thing they found or they realized they picked the wrong guy…
And whats scary about that (and suspect) is it says they didn’t do thier homework before the draft and it cost them a 2nd rounder they could have had in the development line…
that was just locking in the succession plan so Jeffy has his “assistant” GM in place already for when Sandy leaves after 2013.
People will wish Sandy was back when Jeffy takes over the reigns fully.
‘People will wish Sandy was back when Jeffy takes over the reigns fully.’
This would be our worst nightmare, fully realized.
“People will wish Sandy was back when Jeffy takes over the reigns fully.”
LoL….Mets fans everywhere will commit suicide simultaneously if that were to happen….Aye yi yi…god forbid that is a scary thought
I have moved out of NYC since 1997. My heart broke when I heard that Shea was being demolished for Citi Field. Shea Stadium was a preopr place to watch the game and buy hot dogs, ice cream, pretzels, soda and beer. If I want to eat seafood, I would go to City Island not at a baseball game. If I want sushi, I go to the East Village rather than at a baseball game. I really hate what Bud Siegel has done to MLB. Anyway, just wanted to reply to your comment. Nice one!
I can’t believe we are paying Buck 6mil…ugh.
people seem to be missing a key point with FA. There are really 2 classes.
1 is the few “star” level guys that get huge contracts. These are the potential difference makers, but with the current situation it was always a pipedream that the Mets were going after another 25mill+/year guy now.
2nd is the mediocre/flawed/issues guys. IMO, this is where Sandy is talking about not being worth it. VIctorino for 3/36 is not going to make a damned bit of difference between winning 0 games and making the playoffs. So if he is barely at all better than cheap internal options that could have a future, it makes no sense to blow the wad on a guy like that just because he is a “big name”.
there is a concept of getting a guy like that if your team is otherwise set, and you need that little extra to fill a gap. But on a team with a lot of work needed, one lower tier, declining old guy is not what they need.
“VIctorino for 3/36 is not going to make a damned bit of difference between winning 0 games and making the playoffs.”
Thats so not true it’s not funny….
He sure won’t hold back the GOOD players around him the way a AAAA bottom of the barrel placeholder FA signee will.
This is the point you guys seem to miss…
Signing cheap may not commit you to a lot of money but it does hurt the good players you DID manage to get because he is so useless they have to make up for his poor fielding and useless bat!
Considering what is out there free agent wise I am glad the mets are holding off.
Well if they hadn’t held off there was much better out there….
Sure now theoptions suck because we waited until all the good options were gone!
Thats kind of like being hungry waiting till all the food except one rotten steak is gone and saying I would rather go hungy than eat.
Hi Joe,
“This statement by Alderson, coupled with what ownership has already confirmed about increasing payroll, all but eliminates the conclusion that the Mets are not spending because of financial woes”
I understand that the Mets having financial woes does not automatically mean they cannot spend more on the roster, however, I wonder how much they can indeed spend if they were considered too much a financial risk to get that re-financing and SNY had to be used instead and that they have been losing money for four straight years. That question is even raised in more detail – with their own math (LOL) – in the attached from Capital New York. Note the article was written before the Dickey trade and Wright signing but takes into account signing David and trading RA and reducing losses at the same time.
And yes, I am aware that it was written by Howard Megdal
but still he makes a valid case:
“But how to reduce these losses is problematic. The only way the team managed to do so in 2012 was by reducing salary. And as I’ve previously written, the salaries owed in 2013 already, along with raises in arbitration, leaves essentially no room for any additions, let alone the kind of raises to R.A. Dickey and David Wright that would induce them to sign extensions that would keep them with the Mets beyond the 2013 season.
“The Mets can clear $16 million from next year’s payroll by picking up Wright’s option, then trading Wright this winter (or, I suppose, by simply not picking up the option, though that would make no sense). They can clear $5 million by doing the same thing with Dickey.”
Well, since they haven’t as yet traded David that part of the problem hasn’t been resolved.
Megdal concludes “Wilpon might hang on. But for as long he does, it seems, the Mets will be a big-market team with a small-market payroll.”. I will not deny that I have stated the same opinion myself based on what I’ve read not just from Megdal but others as well.
Do you think he has a valid point based on the math he presented or should I be less pessimistic about the Mets financial future making it difficult for them to be able to field a sustained competitive team a few years down the road?
I’ve also attached again the estimated payroll obligations as appearing in Baseball Reference which shows that the $25 million saved after Johann’s contract expires virtually disappears sans about $4 million after two more seasons.
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/sports/2012/09/6536279/wilpons-mets-are-still-shrinking
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2012-roster.shtml
Megdal has been chasing his own tail on the Mets financial mess since the story first broke. He’s tried hard to get out in front of the story, but always ended up lagging behind. He had some bad sources which he refused to put to the Litmus test for credibility. He alleged many things in “Wilpon’s Folly”, and none of his top allegations came true. He seems to think he knows the Wilpon’s finances better than they do which is ridiculous to say the least.
Bottom line:
1. The Mets were not found guilty of any crime.
2. His whistle-blower whistled Dixie instead and Judge Rakoff said there was nothing there.
3. The Mets DID sell those shares.
4. The Mets did not default on the Citi Field debt payment.
5. The Mets DID pay back MLB and the BOA bridge loan.
6. The Mets DID NOT bring in CRG to oversee their bankruptcy.
7. The SNY loan WAS negotiable and refinanced for less.
Those are a lot of things he got wrong. Why are you still listening?
The Santana contract ends after this season, yes. That’s always been common knowledge.
BTW thanks for your well wishes and Happy New Year.
Hi Joe,
What concerns me is that I believe Sandy Alderson has indeed done his job and got the Mets back into better financial shape, although the situation is precarious enough for them to have been considered too much a risk for re-financing (and SNY is the trump card I think that will eventually get the Wilpons out of this mess in time).
But until the time when the debt crunch eases and SNY profits can be shifted to being re-invested into the team rather than for paying off it’s debts do you think retaining that better financial footing would be dependent upon continuing operating the team n the manner it now is? If so, would that result in limited leverage for necessary payroll increases either in the form of free agents or re-signing stars on the verge of going after free agency themselves? I don’t know if this would enable them to negotiate with Davis, Gee and others after the 2015 season when they would have one year left before being eligible free agency and avoid going into a bidding war (similar to the contract extension situation with David Wright ).
For though SNY might help offset the debt will it also be enough to offset the possible continued loss of revenue at the same time to allow whoever is the general manager at that time to have more spending flexibility?
To be or not to be, that is the question.
BTW – glad to see you’re feeling so much better to enable you to devote more time to MMO.
Joey they lost money last year…..
You can’t say he did his job until they show a profit which is probably the MAIN reason why he isn’t spending that money(25M) he created by deferred payments on Bay and Wright.
I think Sandy knows that he is not going to be able to rebuild this team in time to avoid having his neck on the chop block in the media next season and has decided he would rather be able to leave saying I made the team profitable ffor the first time in three years and then go take his shiny new office at MLB HQ.
Hi Metsie,
First off, hope that you and yours had a very happy holiday.
What I meant by being better off financially was for somehow being able to operate at a shoestring budget and keeping the Wilpons afloat rather than going bankrupt while paying off those debts. It was more to concede the point that even if they are possibly starting to get their financial footing together that it will not impact the quality of the club working on that type budget years down the road. They will continue as a very small market club and the results will be what fans in Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Oakland (till this year), San Diego, etc have to put up with as well.
All the focus is what is in the best interests of the Wilpons – not the team – though I see this strategy painting them into a corner as well. And if they want to get out, they are going to have to sell some of their stake in SNY in order to do so.
Pretty much how I see it too, Joey.
Thanks SRT,
I’m not sure if I’m correct with this or not but it seems the majority of those reporting the Mets are in better financial shape seems to come from the sports media and those painting a more dismal picture are mostly those from the financial media. Then, of course, there are those from both sides who are in the middle.
Hey, hope you and yours had a good holiday too.
Happy New Year to you and yours, Joey!
It’s coming from those who really had no clue what the financial situation was, Assumed the Wilpons lost most of their wealth to madoff (didn’t happen), only look at the outgoing numbers but never any of the incoming (such as thier cut of the new Baseball deal and the sale of Pieces of the team) and mostly they are lumping SNY and the Stadium finances as MET finances when they aren’t really related except for the fact they have the same majority owner.
If I owned a Majority share of Verizon but also owned a majority share in a company that has lost money three years in a row it would not mean Verizon is having financial difficulties and probably doesn’t mean I am having any either.
The Mets are losing money they spend more to have a baseball team that people spend to go see them.They get a flat fee from SNY that is not dependent on thier record or ratings…
SO they are losing all the money by people not showing up…
Their solution so far has been to cut expenses to affordable levels…They haven’t got there yet and they are running out of things to cut…
If they were SOLVING something they would have found a way to increase revenues…
Trading Cy Young Pitchers and letting 3 All Stars go is not conducive to getting that done.
You have to stop buying the media hype over the Wilpon Finances….
They have NO IDEA how much money the Wilpons have and I would not be surprised if the WIlpons themselves didn’t know eactly how much they have!
Most guys who can invest a half a billion in a Ponzi Scheme, Own propertyall over the city, have enough put up money to re-develop Willet Point into a High end shopping zone and take a helicopter to a heat game has too much money to know where it all is to be able to count it all…
Hi Metsie,
So if I understand your point properly, it is that the Mets are actually being treated as a sole business entity instead of being considered as one of many holdings under the Sterling Equities umbrella. The way I perceived it was the Mets being the catalyst to make huge amounts of money via SNY and though independent entities on paper, the Mets and SNY act like a single unit in terms of a single profit. That is why the Wilpons were willing to sell minority shares of the Mets but wouldn’t part with a single penny related to SNY.
Some of what I read in the financial websites suggest that the dividends currently derived from SNY have been used to offset much of the Mets financial losses. I could agree with that and know that the problem being profitability from SNY still years away that the Mets have to be able to sustain themselves until that time.
Never thought the Wilpons were personally broke or that Sterling Equities as a whole wasn’t holding it’s own and know it is not in one’s best business interests to have losses from one corporation drag down the gains made by other ones and therefore they should sell it. As mentioned, SNY is going to be the money maker in the Mets/SNY venture and not willing to part with a portion of SNY might very well prevent the Wilpons from selling the team.
In that case, with SNY being a separate entity, would it be financially better for the Wilpons to let the team go bankrupt?
I’ll try to illustrate an example that shows why they are all seperate entities
Go back to the days Sports channel was the network and Shea was the stadium…
Sportschannel wasn’t owned by WIlpon and no one would have expected if Sportschannel had defaulted on a loan that the Mets should be forced to cut thier own payroll and pay it for them.Neither would they expect Sportschannel to hand over thier profits to the Wilpons to help pay their bills.
Seperate entities whose only connected by the fact one supplies content to the other. They get a flat fee for that content.
If Sportschannel defaulted on a loan the Wilpons would not have had to sell the team to pay off the creditors.
In SNY case they own a majority of the stock with Time Warner being one of thier partners who also own some. Do you think that TIme Warner’s debts should be counted as well as “Money the METS owe”? What would happen if SNY defaulted on those loans they have? What is the WORST thing that occurs? The Mets need to be sold? The Mets need to pay off the debt of some other company?
or is the worst that happens is that SNY files for bankruptcy. Sterling, Time Warner and Comcast take a credit rating hit, The network sells some of it’s assets such as Equipment to pay off creditors and the METS find a new TV Partner to pay them for the priviledge of broadcasting thier games.
Stadium is pretty much the same thing only Wilpons own more of it than they do SNY (but I’m sure there are other partners in there as well.
I’m not totally sure if the Stadium gets rent or a cut of the gate for events there. But whatever loans that have been taken out to build that stadium are not debts the METS have to pay, You could say the Wilpons but truth is more that STERLING is the borrower not Fred or Saul.
If they default on the loans what happens? Pretty much what would happen with SNY if they defaulted! They would either have to give up or sell stock to help pay off the load, Refinance the loan or go bankrupt, take the credit rating hit and lose the stadium!
Mets would still get thier Broadcast Rights fee every year only thing that changes is who has to pay it and the fact that Wilpon is not going to be so willing to give those rights away cheaply to someone else as he would have when he was selling it to himself.
New Owners would not be forced to pay Met losses now would they be forced to sell if the Mets couldn’t pay the bills.
I am sure Sterling owns a LOT MORE than just the Mets, SNY and the Stadium. We KNOW they also own commercial real estate all over the city as well.
If you were an investor who invested in 10 companies no one would expect you to sell companies 5-10 to pay for the losses and debts of companies 1-5
Which is why I say if you invested in a company like Verizon and Verizon lost a ton of money or had a loan payment they couldn’t make your stock broker would not be calling you up at home and say hey the company you own lost money and you have to kick in money to help pay for it.
Yet that is exactly what fans and the media you keep referring to seem to suggest is the way of things.
There is a reason why you incorporate a business and that is to PROTECT the owners from LIABILITY in cases where the company does something wrong…Why it adds the LTD (Limited Liability) title to the end of it’s name so if the company defaults on a loan or gets sued, all the stockholders are protected from liability.
Sterling Limited!
Sports New York LLC (Limited Liability Corporation)
Not sure of the actual Business name of the stadium but I GUARANTEE it is also incorporated in the same way the others are.
Just because one guy owns stock in all three doesn’t make them all the same company and or affected in any meaningful way by one holding of an owner/corporation having a problem in some other holding.
The business practices of one company only affects THAT company not every other one it’s shareholders own….
Which is why all this crap we have been reading about SNY and Stadium Loans affecting the Wilpons ability to run the Mets is just an attempt to SCARE the fanbase and try and make them accept the idea of not spending.
The finances are not in trouble at SNY or the Stadium. Both COULD be affected by a loss of the Mets being in baseball or playing elsewhere but thats about the only thing that can happen that could affect a Network and stadium.
And those entities have NO affect on the METS TEAM the only thing that can change is who cashes the rent check and who cuts the check for the rights fee.
ALL of the Mets financial problems lay with the METS not SNY or the Stadium….
They have lost money NOT becauase SNY and the stadium have loans but because no one is coming to the stadium to see them play costing them not just the price of a ticket but all the food and souvenir money they get a cut of.
So they will not solve thier financial issues until they start getting people in the stands and cutting Payroll, trading All Stars and Cy Young winners only makes that problem WORSE not better!
I get what your saying Joey….
But no businessan or investor would say he got the job done while there has yet to be a year where you made even 1 Penny of profit….
Maybe they do it this year….
That is if the loss of Dickey doesn’t cost them more money than they cut from this year’s payroll…
If it does they lose 30 Mil next year not less than the 23 they lost this year.
The RA Dickey trade pretty made any sort of further spending on 2013 a moot point.
What I can see them doing is something like this:
1. Re-sign Chris Young to a 1-year, 3 million $ contract.
2. Sign Austin Kearns to a 1-year, 2 million $ contract.
3. Sign RH Jason Frasor ( Toronto connection !) to a 1-year, 2 million $ contract.
4. Sign LH Pedro Feliciano to a 1-year, 0.75 million $ contract ( on a minor league deal)
5. Sign IF Ryan Theriot to a 1-year, 1.25 million $ contract.
That’s it. Total 2013 expenses: roughly 85 million $
Your 2013 opening day roster:
SP: Santana – Niese – Harvey – Gee – Young
RP: FF – Parnell – Frasor – Edgin – Burke – Hefner – Laffey
Lineup:
1) Nieuwenhuis, cf
2) Tejada,ss
3) Murphy, 2b
4) Wright, 3b
5) Davis, 1b
6) Duda, lf
7) Buck, c
8) Valdespin, rf
Bench:
Recker, c
Turner, if
Theriot, if
Baxter, of
Kearns,of
Excited ?
Hardly, but I’m glad we have a Dr. in the house. lol
I would have Baxter in right over Valdy against righties.
I would not platoon any of these kids…let them learn how to hit both lefties and righties…
I really hope this team goes after the Cubans for OF help. To me, that is a move not only for the here and now, but for the future as well. If one of these clowns we see on this roster goes down, there isn’t even minor league depth to come and help out. Maybe MDD. Maybe…
And I don’t mind those BP selections, but I would lobby for Capps or Wilson for closer. Capps I can see happening. Wilson, not so much.
watch out !
too many cubans and ur gonna upset the rocky balboa crowd
Signing one year deals is just dumb…
If they are cheap (and they will be) a two year makes more sense because if you found something good among the trash you at least get it for another year….
You guys constantly talk about the future but you never ever think ahead just HOPE something good happens later….
You can’t do all the work to find ALL those players and then scrap it a start over agin the following year….
Especially when MOST of what you needed was FA this year and won’t be next year when those 1 year contracts run out.
its a decent deal if u do a 1 year deal on a player…then trade him away at the trade deadline if u get a fernando tatis/jose valentin type year out of him…u probably wont get a TOP prospect…but u might get a Zach Wheeler out of it
The problem is he has to have a MONSTER April-June to do that….
Most teams would not trade for a guy they already looked at and dismissed in FA….
MAYBE if your lucky you might get one due to a freak injury interested…
And they will more than likely just wait until he is FA if he changes thier mind they won’t give up anything worthwhile for a guy they passed on and had a good first half.
A guy they passed on due to Injury concerns like Pelfrey maybe but not the crap we are likely to be signing.
right…its basically the lightning in a bottle type signings that might work out…
in my opinion, the wilpons passed up on trading scott hairston for a mid-level prospect, because the prospect of a .500 win season was more attractive than a young player that could help us out in 2015…
but wait…i thought we were rebuilding…
I agee on Hairston….
And I don’t have problems doing a 1 year if the rest of the team is largely built and you just need somethig to fill a gap to not rush a kid…
But right now I think it’s dumb merely because we need so much that more than half will be wasted and rarely will that lightning strike.
I would rather we get better or if we REALLY feel a guy is worth having this year due to the price, Get him for TWO so you don’t have to do it all next year if he does well but not well enough to get something for…
They also past up on trading DW because they wanted the best of both worlds and are not rebuilding nor contending. As Ursula said to the Little Mermaid: “Decisions” Decisions” my poor dear”. Life is full of tough choices.”
They also past up on trading DW because they wanted the best of both worlds and are not rebuilding nor contending.
BINGO
they rarely do anything all the way…
and for those that point to the 2007/2008/2009 payrolls…remember that instead of Manny, we settled for Moises….in 2008, instead of getting quality relievers….we get a bag of BS to get by..in 2009, we had Gary Sheffield and Daniel Murphy in the cavernous Citifield…
the team has always been about putting some marketable names front and center…then using a pack of bubble gum to patch up the rest of the team..
OH MY………………
That is an extremely bad team on paper….I’d rather purchase Milbtv and watch the vegas triple A affiliate
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2012-payrolls-and-wins/
The above link shows correlation between payroll and wins. Draw your own conclusions.
I believe the point that ifthevansrockin made initially is correct.
While the Mets are paying $6M of Bay’s payments, they are booking all $21M of it this coming year. That $15M will not be logged as a payroll expense in future years. The only benefit the Mets derive is a cash flow benefit, NOT increased payroll flexiblity for this year. (Similarly, Beltran’s deferred payments for prior seasons are not being counted against 2013′s payroll either, nor Bonilla’s). This is consistent with information that Rubin got re: the Mets accounting methods from a team source and is in line with claims on MLBTR that the Mets hae roughly $10M to spend remaining.
It has been handled vaguely and opaguely by the Mets front office, but I believe this is how it’s calculated. I’ve been looking for a direct confirmation of this by one of the beat reporters through Met management for weeks, but none has been forthcoming.
I don’t think their budget is anywhere close to 25 million. No way. They throw that out there to help push tickets. They aren’t going to spend much at all. Even next year, when they get major payroll relief, they won’t spend much. No way.
Actually you have to subtract 5 mil from Johan’s salary because its deferred …and really….5.5 mil is a BUYOUT that we might not have to account for if he is traded…so counting that against the 2013 payroll this early is a bit misleading…
so in reality, you have to subtract 10.5 mil from that projected salary..bringing the total up to around 65 mil…
And so I keep reading about getting a Zach Wheeler or Travis D’Arnaud or one of these Cuban kids. Basically, what is it they have obtained? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch. Not until they are major league ballplayers and until the Meta get good at developing these kids, they will continue to fail.
It doesn’t seem like a coincidence that thwarting Mets have developed as many prospects in the pat quarter century that have succeeded at the major league level than the Braves, Phils, Marlins, and Nats have on their rosters right now.
Joe – according to Baseball reference the Mets team payroll last year was $91,621,424
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/attend.shtml
Did they miss something?
At this point – I don’t know what sandy and fred want to do. You get very confusing statements everytime sandy opens his mouth. The amount of holes currently on the team is staggering.
For him to say that he may not spend because of the quality available means he shouldn’t be a GM. The second half of last year proves that – the Mets as a team could not compete.
Mike Francesa’s ERUPTION over the Mets (8-23-12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgyRKcEXYtI
Now I normally think Francesa’s a big bowl of beans but I totally understand his rant. Give it a watch and tell me that Sandy has a plan for next year.
Hi tl,
Thanks for the link. Baseball reference is a great source for information like that.
And according to that list, when Citi Field opened in 2009 it was the teams’ fourth highest average game attendance in history. Three seasons later and it dropped to number 23. Since only three times did they average above Citi Field’s total capacity, this decreasing per game figure cannot be attributed to playing in a smaller ballpark.
I don’t recall how much those processing fees added to the total cost of the tickets so even though dynamic pricing caused the face value to drop, the overall cost might have still been too high for many. I know in 2010 with the processing and shipping fees it came out to the cost of three tickets when buying only two.
Hey, hope you and yours also had a wonderful holiday.
thanks Joey and to yours as well
That was some rant! You have to agree with him. Now imagine THAT team without Dickey and Hairston. And he’s right about Met fans thinking they always have the next Seaver and Koosman on the way up. 1967 seems so long ago. LOL
I cant take the Wilpons anymore they have to sell or everybody has to boycott…..PERIOD……. THERE IS NO ROOM FOR A SMALL MARKET TEAM IN NEW YORK…………………………
Reading these comments and arguments is a great way to start my day!
Now, in addition to being the owners, the General Manager, and various coaches we are now the accountants too? If that were the case why didn’t you guys speak up about Bernie Madoff.
This is hysterical! Some of you need to get a life!
I really don’t believe it’s signing these guys that’s the issue, the issue is giving Mediocre at best players multi year contracts then being stuck with them. Other then Josh Hamilton what free agent signed that you would be guaranteed to want past next year. Upton, Victorino, Napoli, Swisher Cody Ross, even Bourne . While I agree obviously they are better then we have, do you really want Nick Swisher or Cody Ross on this team long term . I understand baseball says pay for mediocrity, but why do it now when your team is not ready. I for one am looking forward to watching our young guys develop and when the time comes to act I feel they will. Naive , Maybe, but really either your a fan or not
I think it’s both. I could certainly go for Upton or even Bourn or Napoli for multiple years but then combine the cash and the years? The Mets are not at that point yet.
It depends on how much and many years it is for….
Signing a Mediocre player to a two or three year deal will not hurt you….
Provided you don’t give him Superstar money….
You can always trade them for a Kid that maybe isn’t on BA’s list but would serve a purpose or a part of some other package to get what tyou need….
Terrel was never a great player but he helped get you someone….He was a throwing and mediocre players can get you throw in kids in trade, just not Top Prospects.
They can also serve as depth once you find the guy you REALLY want at that position.
Part of the Dickey deal is we got a mediocre Catcher who will likely start until d’Arnaud is ready and then serve as the Backup or be traded for someone else….
No player is useless you give him STUPID money.
Even Carl Crawford, Bell, Hanley and Reyes were tradable and got back kids.
And even Hairston would have netted us something if we had not insisted on getting a top Prospect in return.
Stop thinking that every FA signing is the next Jason Bay….
Fear is no way to run a franchise!
No Balls no Glory!
SOMEHOW/SOMEWHERE THERE’S FUZZY MATH AFOOT AS ALDERSON CLAIMS TO HAVE ONLY $7M IN HIS POCKET!
Hi Met62 and Metsie,
Right on both counts – the math is quite fuzzy and the steps taken are indications that it’s not adding up favorably.
And remember Omar’s plan “A” after 2009 was going after another top starter – not a Jason Bay-type. First sign that the math was not adding up when we couldn’t go after plan “A” and that reports now indicate Jeff wanted Omar to sign Bay – which sounds more of a Jeff Wilpon idea since he would be concerned of the dwindling public relations impact not signing a big name would create despite the obvious fact that in the Citi Field that he created, a Bay-type would be useless.
Why Omar didn’t jump in deeper in the Holiday race was a sign that he was being restricted financially.
ACTUALLY, JOEY THE JEFF TRAIT THAT MOST OFTEN COMES TO THE FOREFRONT IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE ATTEMPTS TO HIDE BEHIND “DADDY” OR A WALL OF SUBORDINATES IS HIS TOTAL & COMPLETE LACK OF FOCUS & ABILITY TO CONTROL HIS OBVIOUS ADD SANS HYPERACTIVITY AS NO SOONER DOES HE CUT THE RIBBON OFF A STADIUM BUILT TO MAXIMIZE PITCHING, DEFENSE & SPEED, HE SEEKS TO IGNOR OR CREATE DEFICITS IN THOSE AREAS IN FAVOR OF POWER AS IF HE COULD CONTROL GEOMETRICAL EFFECTS TO ONLY ENCUMBER OPPONENTS.
SOMEWHERE, I BELIEVE THERE LIES A FAULTY FUZZILOGICAL CONCLUSON THAT SIMILAR RESULTS CAN BE EXPECTED FROM MEDIOCRE PITCHING IN A PITCHING FAVORABLE ENVIRONEMENT SO AS TO AVOID THE ESCALATING EXPENSE OF TOP SHELF PITCHING ACQUISITIONS IT WOULD APPEAR TO ME TO MAKE PERFECT JEFF SENSE THAT THE HUMAN FRAILTY COMPONENT OF “ACE” PITCHERS(PEDRO,SANTANA) COULD BE NEUTRALIZED BY IMPROVING MEDUIOCRITY TO ‘ACE’ STANDARDS THROUGH THE “PROPER” APPLICATION OF BRICK & MORTAR. SOMEHOW HE THINKS A MAINE, PEREZ, PELFREY CAN BE RETROFITTED TO PROVIDE HALLADAY,HAMEL,LEE SIMPLY BY EXPANDING THEIR SURROUNDINGS UNFORTUNATELY FOR JEFF THE LEE, HALADAYS,HAMELS & STRAUSSBERGS,et al GET TO PLAY IN HIS BALLPARK ALSO; I FEAR HE FAILED TO EVER CONSIDER THAT SINCE ULTIMATE CONSEQUENCES ARE RARELY CONSIDERED FULLY; BY THOSE WHO’VE NEVER BEEN FORCED TO FACE THEM BY THEMSELVES.
Hi 62 and Happy New Year.
Yes, could be that Jeff thought his circus of a ball park (remember those individual walls of different size and slants all over the place) would turn anyone into his father’s friend Sandy Koufax – I wouldn’t put it past him based on how he emphasized all the quirks he created were for “entertainment” – which made a mockery of the game instead.
In 2009 many picked the Mets and Yankees to make it to the world series. Of course, the Yankees did and one reason cited by Joe Girardi was that the front office built a ball park to play to it’s strengths, not curtail them.
Two scenarios that would fit if they do actually spend the $25m:
Option 1: Marcum, Brian Wilson, Hairston and a flier on Sizemore. I think Brian Wilson will quickly fill the void left in Mets fans hearts from losing Dickey with his quirky personality.
Option 2: Dice-K, K-Rod and same OF as first option. Dice-K will be looking for a one-year deal and could benefit from a NL environment.
Mitch,
Option #2 might cause me to cancel my SNY subscription. Option #1 looks much more appealing, but with $25 mil to spend, they absolutely need to find a CF/leadoff hitter that can go catch the ball. This is a must to field a respectable team, even more important tat that RH OF bat, which is still important. Bourn would be perfect but they wil not cede the #1 pick unless he agreed to play for league minimum for the next 5 years.
#2 yeah, I would rather re-sign Nelson Figgy than to go with that one
As far as KRod goes a team could prob get him on a good deal as he tries to rebound from a season where he posted a career worst 4.38/ERA, 2nd most hits (65) in his career, career worst stikeouts per 9 innings ratio (9.0) and a career worst slg% (.393) obp% (.316) and 2nd worst baa (.241).
So what your saying is that the Mets could add Bourne Hairston & Soriano for about 20 million total & win 85 to 90 games.
One must also remember that KRod had two stretches of three games (mid-April and late July) where he was hit hard and thus inflated his overall seasonal stats.
For other than those two stretches, he was effective for the majority of his 76 appearances – not always, of course, just like most relievers – but consistently dependable more than enough to warrant a respectable (not spectacular) season. I’m sure if Met relievers had just two back-to-back-to back stretches of bad appearances for the entire season, we wouldn’t be complaining – even about our own closer.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=rodrifr03&t=p&year=
Hey lets take a look at Jon Rauch’s stats for the year too then. Perhaps we can even take out two of his appearances and see what his stats look like.
Hi TRS,
You think I didn’t?
14 runs (13 earned) given up in a span of 14 apperances totalling 14 innings from April 29th through June 10th. .
Yes, except for that almost month and a half stretch, Rauch otherwise did have an excellent season, especially the second half of the season. But that’s not two individual streaks of three bad appearances coming almost two months apart from each other.
However, wouldn’t that overall performance merit a retun to the Mets rather than being granted free agency instead? Why not?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=rauchjo01&t=p&year=
Because it’s possible he does still return and it’s also possible that he is asking for more money after a good year or that there is an injury concern.
You are still missing the point. You can’t play the take two games away.
If you take away Rauch’s worst two games you get 56.2 innings 17 runs and a 2.72 ERA with a WHIP of .0907.
Also, stats are funny things.
It was actually 8 runs in an 8 game stretch book-ended by those two games where he gave up 3 runs.
Hi TRS,
Those stats weren’t funny to us as they were happening, of course.
Leaving out the bigger picture for a moment, wouldn´t this be an intriguing way to spend 25 million $ if potentially available:
1. Sign OF Michael Bourn to a 4-year, 52 million $ contract (at the cost of 13 million per year and losing the 2013 first rounder in a supposedly rather weak draft class)
2. Sign RH Jose Valverde to a 1-year, 5 million $ contract.
3. Sign RH Shawn Marcum to a 1-year, 7 million $ contract.
Your 2013 Mets:
1) Bourn, cf
2) Tejada, ss
3) Murphy, 2b
4) Wright, 3b
5) Davis, 1b
6) Duda, lf
7) Buck, c
8) Nieuwenhuis, rf
Bench:
Recker, c
Turner, if
Quintanilla or Hicks, if
Baxter, of
Cowgill or Brown, of
SP: Santana – Niese – Harvey – Gee – Marcum
RP: Valverde – Francisco – Parnell – Edgin – Burke – Familia – Laffey or Hefner
Defense is much improved with Bourn in CF, Nieuwenhuis in RF and Buck at C.
Rotation is promising.
Bullpen is the Wild Card.
Offense is waiting for the arrival of D´Arnaud.
This team probably can´t match Washington or Atlanta yet but could realistically be over .500 again in 2013 without seriously hurting the longterm plan.
Of course, question is, will Bourn be willing to sign a modest deal like that or either want a 1-year deal to re-enter the market in 2014 (then you don´t sacrifice the 1st rounder) or wants “Upton” money (in that case, it´s not worth the risk).
Of course, realistically, none of this will happen.
The Mets will re-sign Chris Young to a 1-year, 3.5 million $ type deal and add some reliever on a 1-year deal and be set for 2013.
Doobs,
Good post. That is still possible, although as you say unlikely. Bourn is very intriguing, as he fits multiple needs perfectly but costs that beloved #11 pick. No way they give up the pick for just 1 year, and I think others (Texas and Seattle) would outbid the Mets for a multiyear contract. Somehow, they need to find a CF/leadoff hitter. Fowler is another candidate but I think the asking price for him in prospects is too high. Bourn is a better player, but Fowler is cheaper controllable for 3 years. Perhaps they can justify two young arms for him if they fill back one with the #11 pick. Pitcherwise, I don’t think they can get Marcum for that price, and his arm worries me a bit. If they couold swipe Capuano from LA without giving up too much (probably not doable), he would be a great fit and could slide into the pen if squeezed out of the starting rotation by Wheeler. I think Alderson is being deliberate here because of both the market prices and the fact that they are willing to make one trade, but have yet to decide on trading for a pitcher or OF.
Capuano would be a good fit (again), indeed.
The question remains, of course, what sort of return LA is looking for him (or Harang, who´d also be a solid fit).
Pretty much the top 20 prospects in the system should be off-limits for any sort of stopgap addition to patch 2013 holes. In that case, I´d rather just re-sign Chris Young or Carl Pavano on the cheap and hope for the best.
If the asking price is marginal, say one of Verrett, Pill, Goeddel, Germen and a bullpen arm like Hutchigson, Ar.Rodriguez, El.Ramirez, Carson or Kolarek, sure, why not.
What about the 20, millions received every year from Citibank. remember contract for the name of Citi