21
2013
DePodesta On The State Of The Mets Farm System
An article by 
Adam Rubin of ESPN New York, spoke with Mets VP of Player Development and Scouting Paul DePodesta about the state of the Mets farm system.
“First, I think the system when we first arrived was underrated,” Paul DePodesta insisted. “It included current big leaguers like Dillon Gee,Ruben Tejada, Lucas Duda and Kirk Nieuwenhuis, among others. Our job is to just add as many talented players as we can each and every year, while graduating the more advanced players to the big leagues, and we’re very happy with what we’ve been able to do both domestically and internationally over the past two years.”
“Admittedly, our position players are behind our pitchers — our pitchers led all of minor league baseball in ERA — but we think we added some key guys in last year’s draft, and some of our international players continue making progress. There are some position players we’re very excited about. But, collectively, it’s not as deep as the pitching.
“It is true that the new collective bargaining agreement has slowed the restocking of the system. The Mets originally aimed to go over slot in the draft and be more aggressive internationally, but the new rules that cap spending largely prevent that. Certainly the new CBA caused us to reevaluate the mechanics of what we do, but it didn’t change our approach, which has been to find and acquire the best players possible, regardless of high school or college, domestic or international, or big-dollar or small-dollar demands.”
Read the entire transcript of Adam Rubin’s interview with Paul DePodesta here.
The new front office inherited a minor league system whose richness of talent is only now being realized and it’s good to see them admit as much. Initially, they were not very endearing of what they walked into, but that has changed with the emergence of Matt Harvey and Co.
DePo aptly points out the chasm that divides our pitching prospects from our hitting prospects. We have Wilmer Flores and Travis d’Arnaud on the cusp of the majors, but after that there’s little to get very excited about. We have some sleepers like Vicente Lupo, but it’s far too early to hang your hopes on them. Consecutive first rounders Brandon Nimmo and Gavin Cecchini didn’t hit the ground running.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Mets swap some low level pitching depth to bring in equal value in hitting prospects with a team that has the inverse problem as we do.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
93 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- chipsny: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: You forgot the Pagan for {nothing...
- Fonzie13: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: "Niese, Ike Davis, Lucas Duda, Ruben Tejada...
- Fonzie13: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: You're right Steve. Plus you hired the...
- Fonzie13: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: That's because the Cardinals are always in...
- Fonzie13: on Gee Roughed Up As Braves Shutout The Mets 6-0: If the Mets drafted Chris Sale who...
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5396 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Unlike some other Met fans, I didn’t think the farm system SA inherited was quite as bad as some would like us to believe. Most of the better talent though was still in the lower minors, which probably equates to our low ranking over the past couple of years.
‘I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Mets swap some low level pitching depth to bring in equal value in hitting prospects with a team that has the inverse problem as we do.’
I’m in agreement, Joe. Don’t know how else we’ll get some of those position players – especially for the OF – that we’re definitely lacking in.
Well I’ve been speculating that the Mets would look to move some of the young arms for missing pieces for some times. Pitching depth is great but there are only so many slots and everyone knows we have some holes to fill in the OF.
I would also look for Alderson to ask for some young OF talent when Santana is moved. Right now, he is the only veteran piece guaranteed to be moved. Alderson did get two very promising position players as part of the Dickey package in d’Arnaud and Becerra.
agreed with both of you. There was some talent, but it was at the real low levels, which is why it is just starting to filter up onto the radar. But not having above average guys at AA or AAA really slowed the process down.
and I have been saying for a while that they could only hoard the prospects so long, and at some point would have to start swapping them to fill holes (again, most likely part of the plan all along). And if nothing else, it is better to have pitching to trade than to be trying to pick it up!
I’ll give this to DePodesta, he has been pretty consistent in the Mets Farm having more already there when they got in. He said as much in an interview he did with Rubin back in 2011.
Don’t trust this guy… His record is awful as an baseball executive in all aspects
Thanks for posting this. I have a great deal of respect for the current process and patience we have shown while we wait for the younger talent reaches the majors. I don’t understand why so many fans want to blow money now when we are not even close to contending. Whenever I see comments like Depo made I feel confident that we are on the right course. Lets Go Mets!
Whenever I see comments like Depo made I feel confident that we are on the right course.”
Yeah, now that i see you made this comment, it made me change my view on the mets, so let’s see, we have a GM that don’t give a damn about the team, 2 awful GM’s overseeing the minors with a terrible track record and owners that are broke. yeap. now i feel we are in the right course..
You are an out of touch blithering fool! Nothing they say or do can ever make you happy. Great stay in your dark basement and be angry just do it quietly.
And your happy you have an OF that is the punchline to a joke?
Agree Gina. The time to spend $$$$’s is when the F/A’s we sign (hopefully the right ones!) put us into solid contention. Next offseason…
Actually, DePodesta & co. acknowledged that the farm system inherited wasn´t nearly as bad as the media proclaimed it to be very early on.
For example, here´s what DePodesta said in an interview with Adam Rubin back in August 2011:
“Again, I think there was probably a little bit more here when we first arrived than was sort of generally accepted. There were a couple of guys last year that didn’t have great years who I think have high-end talent. So when we came in, they weren’t heralded as maybe they should be…” (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/tag/_/name/reese-havens/count/61)
Now, while Baseball America probably still is the # 1 prospect site, they´re also the only prospect evaluation site that still ranks the Mets in the bottom 15 farm system.
Whether it´s Baseball Prospectus, Sickels, Fangraphs, Bullpen Banter or other prospect sites, the Mets are generally rated as having a much improved “easily Top 15″ system for whatever that is worth.
DePodesta makes a very good point about the Mets pitching prospects. They mostly have in common that their prospect status is not based on projection (“maybe Deolis Guerra or Juan Urbina fill out and adds 5 mph to his fastball, maybe Brad Holt develops a good breaking pitch or changeup, maybe Scott Moviel grows into his body, etc”) but that they mostly all flash well above average to plus velocity and generally also have a very good K – BB ratio. Sure, they are what they are: “prospects” and not “major league pitchers” yet.However, the more lottery tickets with high-win chances you have, the bigger your actual chance to win something. And that´s both true in terms of finding potential frontline pitchers but also just finding inexpensive but effective bullpen pieces.
One third of the innings of a staff´s IP total is generally provided by the bullpen – and the Mets over the past decade and more have done an abysmal job, coming up with enough in-house relief pitching. Bell – Heilman – Parnell – Lindstrom – Joe Smith – that´s pretty much it and probably among the worst production of all major league teams over the past 29 years – with Smith, Lindstrom and Bell really only emerging elsewhere and neither Heilman nor Parnell being a real lights out reliever.
Maybe 3 years from now, we´ll be enjoying a shutdown bullpen of Mazzoni – Familia – Leathersich – Edgin – Mateo – McHugh making less combined than what Frank Francisco & Jon Rauch made in 2012. Or it could be Tapia – DeGrom – Montero – Gorski – Matz – Mejia, just to name a totally different group of names. Look at the Braves, Nats or Giants bullpens – and they have mainly been made up of mostly youngish, power relievers from within.
“Metro (NYC): Paul, Thanks for doing this chat. We all know the Mets system has been much maligned for a few years now. In your eyes what is the biggest strength and weakness of the system?
Paul DePodesta: After arriving here and getting a chance to read the reports, talk to the staff, and see the players for myself, I don’t think the system has been treated fairly. Our guys in Latin American – Ismael Cruz, Rafael Perez, and Rafael Landestoy – are as good as they get in baseball, and they’ve done a tremendous job. In the draft, there are a number of young players already contributing to the ML Club (Davis, Niese, Thole, Parnell), which is the ultimate goal anyway. Every system could be stronger, especially in starting pitching, and that’s certainly our challenge going forward.”
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=823
“I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Mets swap some low level pitching depth to bring in equal value in hitting prospects with a team that has the inverse problem as we do.”
Are there any teams that match up like that? I’m not attuned to other teams minor league systems, so I wouldn’t know where to begin to figure out what are some options here.
Prospect for prospect swaps are quite rare.
However, trading young pitching for hitting could become a very good option.
Remember Neil Allen for Keith Hernandez, Walt Terrell for Howard Johnson, in a way Hubie Brooks AND highly touted Floyd Youmans for Gary Carter or – gulp – Mike Scott for Danny Heep between 1983 and 1985 for example ?
Trades like these don´t make a lot of sense now – but probably will a year from now. And that coincides with a lot of those arms that performed in A-ball or below in 2012 being close or in Double A by the end of 2013.
Makes sense. Honestly, if the D’Backs would just accept Syndergaard/Flores/Edgin/Tapia, we’d get that upgrade in offense!
I really don’t trust upton. And not at that price.
Actually, if you are giving up that much and taking on 3/40 contract, why not go with your other idea, and drop that offer as a “take it or leave it” to bourn? You fill CF/lead off instead or RH power for RF (both are real needs), same $, and you save a ton in talent going back.
IOW, you get a guy for the same contract, except you have those 4 guys vs. 1 future pick.
I am taking those 4, because you would be in hog heaven if the #11 pick became as good as syner, tapia or Flores. And Edgin is already in the majors.
If the deal is 3 years, 40 mil, the more I think about it, the more I can be convinced that the loss of the pick would be worth it. Not a killer contract at all, puts an everyday player in CF who is tremendous on D (which should help out with Duda in LF), bats lead off…
And your point is made about trading those 4 pieces for Upton, but considering his age and his upside, it would be a risk I would be willing to make. Have to give to get.
That’s way too much to give up for Upton TX. If he wasn’t so pedestrian away from Chase Field I would probably do that as steep as that price is but his home road splits scare me to give up four high upside talents like that. I could see Upton coming here and putting up a season like 275 14 HR 70 RBI.
Cubs are a decent match.
How about Ike Davis and Syndegaard for Rizzo and Soler?
Since he’s been here, Alderson has demonstrated zero willingness to swap young players for others so I think the optimism here that he’ll do that in the future, is unfounded until or if he proves that he’s willing to depart with what he loves to control.
Alderson hasn´t traded prospects so far because it´s not the right time for that yet.
Over the last two years, Alderson has rather traded veterans for prospects or added extra draft picks by letting veterans leave for free agency compensation.
So yes, eventually Alderson certainly will (have to) trade prospects. Especially to get a major league caliber outfield. At some point – once a promising young group of players is in the majors, the switch will have to be turned. And I´m pretty sure that the current FO understands that as well.
However, again, why trade any prospect of significance now ? Just to appease fans ? You may sign Chris Young the pitcher or Landon Powell
instead…
It doesn´t make sense right now. It´ll hopefully make sense a year from now. But it only will if Harvey, Wheeler, D´Arnaud & Co. hit the ground running.
“not the right time for that yet”
Thats a load of crap….
Every kid he has gotten and every kid we look forward to being a part of the core will be on the 25 Man roster before the season is completed!
When do you suggest is the RIGHT time?
When all thier CHEAP and UNDER CONTROL has expired and ruined the entire purpose for building from within?
Please….If you want to build from within do it the right way and stop waiting for something to bite you in the ass before you make a move cause thinking like that will only waste all it is you think we have accomplished so far and we will have sat through three season of crap for nothing!
After 2013, Mets will control Wheeler & D’ Arnaud for probably 6 more years, plus Harvey and to a lesser degree Mejia, Edgin, Familia and others for at least 5.
Wright & Niese are signd longterm while Tejada & Ike also will be under control for at least 3 more seasons.
That seems like a pretty good time to shift gears, doesn’t it ?
Joe, what I don’t understand is that if there’s a “richness in talent” in guys like Duda and Kirk, why does the FO get bashed eight ways from Sunday for not replacing them?
because they get based for anything they do, unless they don’t do it, in which case they get bashed for that?
And really, there is a big difference between guys that came up to play in the majors (though that is a pretty big acheivement for a system), and top end (star?) players that I would deem “richness” at this point, Duda and Kirk are looking like nice filler parts that you certainly need to produce, but aren’t what you need to take the leap to a top team.
I actually thought DePo was a little off when he mentioned Duda and Kirk but said nothing about Niese, Harvey, David, Tejada, Gee, Edgin, Flores, Gorski, etc. Would you include Duda or Kirk as a richness of talent? Or do you see them as I do, expendable?
What position player on the farm do you not see as expendable? Davis and d’Arnaud?
What are you talking about?
Kirk and Duda are unreliable, replaceable and expendable.
Ike Davis and Travis d’Arnaud aren’t going anywhere, nor should they.
Yes, I know. My point was, who else do you put in that category?
Nobody…d’Arnaud is the only untouchable prospect right now (position player-wise)
My point exactly. In fact, I’d say not only is there only 1 “untouchable” position player, there may be only 1 or 2 other legit starters in Bingo or Vegas.
Completely expendable, of course. DePo specifically referred to the current major leaguers they inherited. Flores, Gorski, etc. aren’t current major leaguers. Two and half years after the SIXTH of Omar’s drafts, there are three major leaguers to speak of. Four, if you count Gee as an interchangeable back-end starter. I think DePo was just being judicious in his comments. Nothing more.
Niese, Davis, Gee, Tejada, Harvey, Murphy. Parnell, and Edgin…Four huh?
Too bad the guy who plays the count on sesame street died you could use him…
Then add Duda and Kirk as promising potentials….
Mejia and Familia…
Yeah we got barely 4 out of Omar….
Oh Wait we should add D’Arnaud and Snydergaard to the list…..Afterall without Omar we don’t get either because we don’t have a Cy Young Pitcher to trade…..
I forgot Murphy. Five. Maybe I can’t count, but you can’t read. Mejia? Familia? Edgin? Major leaguers? Kirk and Duda as promising? Come on now. Be honest with yourself for once.
So you think no way in hell Mejia and Familia are on the MLB roster at any point this year?
Edgin is already on our Roster and one of the arms we are relying on heavily to eat up some innings there….
Parnell as well….
Duda as we have discussed had a down year….
What did I say would make him a keeper?
.260+ 20+ HRs….
Take note of the numbers of someone you gushed over in the past…
.269BA 27 HRs His name is Jason Heyward! A guy you just LOVED!
What did he do in his sophmore year in the Majors? .227 14 HRs
Lucas Duda in his sophmore year? .239 15 HRs
SO as far as the bat is concerned Duda is doing just as well as Heyward who you would probably insist we would have to trade Wheeler to get if asked!
Kirk in his very FIRST half a year hit .257 with 7 HRs…Double it to a full season and he winds up right around Heyward in his soph year….
SO denigrate them all you want but they are not that far off from being the guy you claimed was PROOF the Braves know how to pick winners….
So that’s all it takes to be a major leaguer? Appearances on a team? Then why all the fuss about the outfield? Cowgill and Bixler have been on ML teams. Problem solved.
Are those two on an MLB team presently?
I know this an attempt to change the subject from the original discussion…
HOW GOOD IS OUR FARM!
And how good it is should be based on how many probably MLB players are on that farm…
Not who has the most high Cieling and HOPE attached to them based on things they haven’t achieved or done!
You know like Snydergaard and Cheech!
Kirk and Duda aren’t presently on a major league team, either.
Kirk isn’t…Duda is he ended the season on the MLB squad and has yet to be designated for assignment….
Metsie I have to agree with Xtreem. I know you think he’s biased but I know him to be very objective. I wouldn’t count Duda and Kirk as promising either. Think Joel Youngblood and Bruce Boisclair.
As for how many MLBers we have in six years, I’d want to see how the other 29 teams stack up in that area before passing any judgement. I would think the Mets are average at worst and possibly top ten in terms of quality.
Well what I’m saying is there is a big chasm between promising and Worthless….
I’m certainly not claiming Duda or Kirk is promising…Just that they are not worthless and lets face it they are a bit more to go on than a guy like Nimmo or Cheech who gets annoited before ever leaving Instructional league….
The Jury is still out on those guys…Just I would say the Jury is still out on Heyward.
What I’m basing my opinion on is the knowledge that development happens at MORE than just the Farm…
Niese has been developed over the last few years and continues (we hope) to be all the pticher we think he can be.
And futher with as many doubts as we may have about Duda and Kirk they sure are a lot more promising than the guys we have gotten to platoon with them.
As for X’s bias it would seem that players wearing Met Unis gets the doubt of the benefit while anyone else wearing another jersey gets the benefit of the doubt.
We seem to be forming opinions based on nothing but HOPE around here so I shoose to HOPE that Duda and Kirk can be what I think he is capable of and THEN I’ll decide if he is expendable, tradable or cut material…
“Then add Duda and Kirk as promising potentials….”
“I’m certainly not claiming Duda or Kirk is promising…”
That took less than an hour.
Ahhh I see your problem now….
Attempting to accuse ME of DUALITY for using YOUR OWN duality regarding what parameters you use to justify promising players is what is tripping you up…
Nimmo and Cheech are promising, Heyward is Promising….To YOU! (not me!)
So when I use the parameters YOU USED to come to that conclusion on Duda those parameters are WRONG …
I didn’t say Duda was promising I said USING YOUR PARAMETERS for other and applying them EQUALLY to ALL PLAYERS they must be promising as well!
But since I used ONE of your two different scoring systems you think I’m the one who has a problem with how they got rated….
Nice try but like I said you seem to have two ratings systems for players…
One for Mets and a more favorable one for anyone not wearing a Met uni or are in the Minors and have done nothing yet….
And when I use the latter Duda and Kirk becomes PROMISING!
Sorry but this attempt at making me look like I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth isn’t working!
But you will try again I’m sure….
If you don’t you might lose your membership in the Smug Brothers club!
So what were my parameters that you used when you hijacked my thread with Joe D, told me I can’t count and claimed Kirk and Duda were promising? What parameters was that in response to? When did I say Nimmo and Cecchini are promising? How is an All Star who’s received MVP votes in two seperate seasons NOT “promising”?
Take your time answering.
Yeah I hijacked YOUR thread….One that was posted on Xtreeme.com not MMO….
I posted my examples of your duality above…re-read it or not I’m not going to get into another long lets keep changing the subject conversation with you that eventually will become something about how swallows migrate with coconuts because you don’t like the way I’m pointing out your quirks…
Discussion over as far as I’m concerned….Have fun loving and rating non mets higher than Mets….
Couldn’t even answer one. Typical. You didn’t post examples of duality, you accused me of it with no examples of it at all, just your normal “I say it so it’s true” excuse.
I did Heyward….To which your only repl was some crap about making an All Star game and MVP votes while I showed the STATS of the player….
Come now you LOVE stats over ALL stars don’t you?
After all it seems to be all you write about is metrics…
Sorry but your not going to get away with playing your little game with me….Try it on one of the others but I know you too well!
You CREATED stats. Where’s my duality? Where did I contradict myself? Where did I say one thing, like Duda and Kirk and promising, then immediately say the opposite, “I’m certainly not claiming Duda or Kirk is promising…”
Show that, not what you think or want me to have said.
Oh yeah I created them off the op of my head….
Not BREF….
You think Heyward is a great player no?
I showed you Duda having a better year than Heyward in the sophmore year of thier experience level did I not?
Run this around all you want but I did a comparison of a guy you LOVE with a guy who did better than him in his second year and now what was a GOOD player is now a bad player….
All because of the jersey he wears.
You did nothing of the sort. You cherry picked two offensive stats. You failed to include many important factors of baseball you refuse to ever acknowledge like speed, defense and pedigree.
So show them!
I picked the two that most people use to determine the relative value of players…ability to hit and how much power they have….
When your done showing us all the way Heyward blows Duda out of the water then tell us all how he compares to d’Arnaud who I will bet money you love more than Duda too….
I wonder why….
If you need more proof that Heyward is a superior player than Duda, then you’re beyond help. Heyward is one of the best defensive right fielders in baseball, maybe the best. Duda is literally the absolute worst. Heyward had a sophomore slump, sure. But show me where Duda was an All Star in his rookie year and finished 2nd in the ROY vote. In Duda’s third major league season, he had to be sent down to the minors. In Heyward’s third major league season, he finished 20th in the MVP vote.
You can cherry pick two offensive stats and start a team with Duda in RF, me and everyone else who watches baseball will take Heyward. And D’Arnaud.
As I expected…you can’t back it up….
Thank You!
That only took an hour as well…
LoL. Every word was backing up. Refusing to acknowledge how baseball illiterate you are doesn’t make me wrong.
Words are not metrics which you cim to have had but apparently didn’t….
I’m baseball illeterate your your just an opinionated fool who uses different criteria for judging players based on thier Uni….
And it has nothing to with stats just opinions of someone else apparently….
Well if thats all you got I guess THEY are smart ones and your just an Illiterate baseball PARROT repeating stuff he heard in between cracker feedings.
So I’m opinionated, but only parrot other people’s opinions. I didn’t have to do any work on that one. You chased your own tail without any help from me.
Which metrics did I claim to have? If I claimed to have them, you’d certainly be able to show everyone which metrics they are.
LOL your not opinionated….your “someone else’s Opinion”-ated…
What Metrics did you claim to have? All those you suggested I Ignored….
At least I picked two I felt were important you didn’t even look at one just went by WHAT YOU HEARD….
Well I HAVE looked at Metrics and say WITH CONVICTION….
Duda has as much a chance of being a great player in this league as Heyward does…Maybe even BETTER!
Cause I don’t see Heyward as a 40 HR guy and with Duda’s size and power he could hit that many…
The only questions regarding Duda has to do with the glove and if he brings a better bat to the table no one will care about hat glove they could deal with it in LF or put him at 1B….And you will love him because thats the opinion others will have then.
This is just silly now. Duda could be a better ballplayer than Heyward because he might have more power? What makes you say that? Do you watch baseball? Is it Heyward’s higher career SLG% that makes you think Duda has more power? Or Heyward’s higher ISO? How about the fact that Heyward had two fewer HRs in 2012 than Duda has in his entire career.
That’s not even including the fact that Heyward is the best defensive RF in baseball, can run, and, has a better batting average and on base percentage.
These are what you’re ignoring. Or just blind to. At this point, I’m not sure which. It’s clear you don’t understand what’s important in a baseball player. You once again said the phrase “no one will care about that glove” which proves you have no concept of baseball.
Dudas career MLB stats:
256/338/427 10%bb rate 22.2%K rate -23 uzr/162 games 2 stolen bases
Heywards career MLB stats:
261/352/447 11.6%bb rate 21.6%K rate +13 uzr/162 games 41 stolen bases
Duda is going to be 27 during the 2013 season, heyward 23-24.
Yeah and your ignoring Heywards year and a half of extra experience vs MLB Pitching….
I matched them up based on what they have done based on the years of experience they have had at the time they did it….
That and the fact that if not for that one good year that sold you on him Heyward has done pretty much squat since then….
Had a year that Duda could easily have in his third season…
But anyway…I note you won’t show actual numbers and that you would not go on record stating what Duda would have to do to level off the loss of the glove…
Because you as usual are scared to go on record….
Just as you were afraid to publish your 30 years of research regarding how well OBP correlates that I shred in about a day’s worth of work and PUBLISHED here for all to see….
Something you rarely do because you know once it’s on record you can’t play the “WHEN DID I” game you love to play whenever you are caught being wrong because you just the smartest guy around here as far as baseball is concerned…
If it wasn’t for your buddy D…You might be the dumbest….Nice to have friends though…
You’e not seriously comparing the talent level of Heyward and Duda are you? It’s like comparing Daniel Murphy to Edgardo Alfonzo.
Metsie – Are you trying to say Duda is as good as Heyward or has as much potential?
You understand that on Opening Day, Duda will be 27 years old, and Heyward doesn’t turn 24 until August?
I mean, you cannot possibly even compare the two defensively or on the base paths. So lets just forget that, it’s not even debatable
You’re argument is based on what? The fact Duda can hit 40 HR? Duda hit 60 total HR in the minor leagues in over 2,000 Plate appearances.
While Heyward was hitting 27 HR at 22-23 years old in the minors, Duda hit 9 in AA at the same age.
If you’re going to sit there and tell me if Atlanta’s GM got drunk at a party and say Heyward for Duda straight up that you’d say “no thanks.” then I am afraid you’re lost.
When Duda is passing his prime, Heyward is going to just be entering his. They aren’t even close in talent. They just aren’t.
Can Duda hit 40 HR in a season? I personally do not think so but if it happened, I still wouldn’t say he’s a more valued talent than Heyward – unless Heyward has a leg amputated or something
What I’m saying is Duda has as much chance at being a better player in the eyes of the MLB as Heyward is…
Heyward had one good year and has pretty much been nothing special since…
Duda had one hot half a season and then had a bad sophmore year…a bad year that was better than the second year Heyward had…
Age really doesn’t matter if you suck…
A guy who hits .290 and 30 HRs who happens to be 28 will be better than some 25 Year olf hitting .267 with 17 HRs no matter when and where you think his prime is going to hit.
Heyward had one good year and then the Pitchers figured him out…The same may be true for Duda and Kirk but they haven’t had three seasons to figure them out like Heyward has.
So given the same experience I can see Duda going right past Heyward on the whose better list….and no one will care that he’s older if he is putting up better numbers.
Heyward had 2 good years not 1. His 1 bad year he was playing hurt and missed over 30 games which was a good enough excuse for you to make for all the suck we’ve had to watch the last few years of Omar.
Duda is not in Heywards class. I’m not shocked you’d think that though. You’re the same guy who said Reyes is better than Rickey Henderson due to his BA being 7 points higher and the same guy who thinks Beltran is better than Ken Griffey Jr and the same guy who said Greg Maddux didn’t have good stuff and the same guy who think s the 86 Phillies were better than the 86 Mets due to head to head record.
Metsie – I’m sorry but this idea that the pitchers figured Heyward out is a tad silly when you consider he hit 27HR and drove in 82 runs this year after the pitchers supposedly figured him out.
He’s 23 years old… I mean you’re talking about a kid still and he’s done more in his career than Duda has who will be 27. That’s a huge, huge difference.
Duda will never win a gold glove, Duda will never steal 20 bases. So there are 2 things Duda can never do to be as good as Heyward.
All you’re basing it on is a HR #, and even that – Heyward almost 4 years younger has hit more HR than Duda. So the likelihood of Heyward hitting 40 is better than Duda.
It’s not even close in terms of talent, I’m sorry. And this idea about pitchers figuring Heyward out – how come it doesn’t apply to Duda?
Didn’t Duda do much better in his first 100 games than his next 120? So how can you say they figured Heyward out but not Duda?
Here you go again, seems amazing to me how you continue to slu-p on the braves players, saying how heyward hit 27 HR and drove in 82 Runs, yet you take an entire article to sh** on ike davis after previously shi**** in him on another craprtice about demoting him yet haven’t heard one praise from you for him finishin the year strong and hitting over 30+ HR. You are something else you know that? Pathetic and embarrassing to say the least how you view things, this is exactly why people talk about agen-das and whatnot, your hate towards davis comes because #1 bayonne and a few of us like him, so god forbid you favor anything any of us say, and #2 because he made you look silly and proved your stupid as* article and you wrong by going insane after june (Leading the NL in HR since june 12)
Your reading what you want me to have said not what I said…..
I said they figured him out in YEAR TWO!
They he adjusted and had a reasonably good year…Not MASSIVE mind you….
Slightly below .270 with 27 HRs and those RBI…
If you were following this back and forth between X and me as far back as the make or break Duda thread you would have seen he asked me what would Duda have to do and I said
.260 25+ HRs to remain in the MLB (LF or 1B)
.270 25+ HRs to remain in LF
Right around where Heyward did last year isn’t it?
And I don’t care how old he is….I’m not the guy who sends guys who perform away based on thier age…
In the MLB his age won’t matter if he hits more HRs and for higher average than Heyward…Especially if he hits 40 HRs like I think he is capable of doing.
Pujols is older than Heyward too…Which one you drafting first on your team?
And don’t change the subject to money just to avoid answering…Cause MONEY is just the manifestation of the MLB saying your worth having more than another…
Alex this is another classic case of TWO SCORECARDS….
One for Things they like and another for things they don’t.
Injuries don’t matter until they matter
Fonzie constantly harping about the 2009 team only 79 wins and not accepting Injuries as part of the reason why then using injury to explain Heyward who only missed 30 games not nearly as many as Reyes and Beltran missed….
Xtreeme is not all that good at being fair to Met players too….
Jessup is a bit better at being consistent but he has his few moments as well….
I don’t exactly remember what he said but I do remember him thinking Ike was unproven…Well 32 HRs is about as proven as you can get in the MLB….And while his BA was low thats only because of the early slump that without he hits right around where the great Heywards BA sits…
The 2009 team did not win 79 games. The 2010 team did and they were 11 games over 500 with those injuries and then tanked in the 2nd half when all those injured players were on the field.
Not one comment from anyone saying those players are worthless.
Yeah completely expendable is not the worthless….
No OFers (duda being the best one we have) and he is expendable….
Why the hell not a Cy Young Pitcher was expendable too!
Expendable is not worthless.
If the prospects inherited were limited to the likes of Duda and Kirk, then there would be cause to dismiss what DePodesta says as nothing more than being courteous to another colleague. But since that talent goes way beyond those two – with Harvey, Murphy, Davis, Gee plus others being given a shot this season, it obviously was more than just lip service.
Sorry but the truth is eluding you…
No one has said Duda needs replacing in fact you seemed more down on Duda than I did in the comments regarding him….
Remember the parameters I suggested he needs to meet to keep him in LF?
Those were all quite reasonable and attainable by him.
As for Kirk well count them up!
Duda Plus Kirk = TWO OFers….
Your hero says Outfield? WHAT Outfield?
You do realize that there are OFer out there right?
What have I suggested for the past two years as the biggest need?
Power Hitting RHB RFer….
Maybe Kirk becomes that, if so then we need a speedy CF who can leadoff…
Perhaps your confusing peoples desire to get a third OFer as wanting to replace Duda and Kirk….
But no one has suggested any such thing….the FURTHEST you could push that notion is we have suggested we could trade one of them to get that Power Righty OFer because they ARE worth having and trading for!
“….swap some low level pitching depth to bring in equal value in hitting prospects with a team that has the inverse problem as we do”
I think that is the thing that chaffs my butt more than anything else about this offseason and last.
Those types of deals should have been made already. Considering both Wheeler and d’Arnaud are most likely going to be put on the MLB 25 Man before the season is out (and maybe by the time May rolls around).
This season or last would have been the perfect time to trade some of that lower level pitching to get an Equiv OFer or two into the system that might be ready to promote next year in the same way Travis and Zack are in this year.
Guys like Ike and Murphy are already on Arb years and they are two homegrowns who started the year before the Hydra took over. A big part of what we are building around. With Zach and Travis starting thier clock we really need to get the remaining pieces or we will be wasting and squandering the only benefit to rebuiding with kids…Because they are cheap and under control….
Things I was happy to hear him say (despite not totally buying it)
“We never get caught up in the rankings, because ultimately, it’s about producing quality big leaguers. There are no rings awarded for the best ranking, and guys like Tejada and Gee were never ranked terribly high anyway.”
Something I have been preaching for awhile now…It’s not about how BA ranks you that determines success or not its how many MLB players you get for the picks you make. Getting one elite superstar out of 40 picks is NOT better than getting 10 MLB players in the same 40 picks. No team has ever, WILL ever have a superstar at every position. The closest team to do so was the Yankees and they didn’t draft them they bought them. So what you need to do is save your free agent money to GET those superstars (even if it costs a pick that year) and do your best to get MLB players in the draft that allows you to avoid overpaying for average and bandaids in FA and can fill a positon on the MLB instead. Then one of those players might develop into a star, be good enough to package to get them in trade or at least reduce the holes you need to fill short term until a better option becomes available.
“All in all, more than a dozen of our players who haven’t appeared in any top-10 list have been asked about this winter in major league trades, so other teams out there certainly like our depth.
The next time someone tells me that our Minors suck and no one wants them I’m calling you out using this quote! Stop using how negative the Minors are as an excuse to be POSITIVE about a Front Office that can’t pull the trigger on trades for our Kids that are not named Wheeler and Harvey!
And finally
“Certainly the new CBA caused us to reevaluate the mechanics of what we do”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/11/balance-is-the-key-to-the-new-cba.html
“Sorry Sandy, it looks like you’re going to have to go back to the drawing board.”
Also:
“I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Mets swap some low level pitching depth to bring in equal value in hitting prospects with a team that has the inverse problem as we do.”
In general, teams don’t like to swap prospects. I think the Mets would have better luck using some pitching prospects to acquire a young-ish major league hitter. Maybe a guy on a small market team about hit arb or free agency.
someone like Dexter Fowler? Denard S. would have qualified too i guess.
but someone along those lines?
They would certainly give us a CF/lead off guy. I’d look for power first, though.
Mets signed Feliciano to a minor league deal.
It’s interesting to read criticism directed at Omar for leaving us a minor league system in shambles when Paul DePodesta said to Adam Rubin: “First, I think the system when we first arrived was underrated. It included current big leaguers like Dillon Gee,Ruben Tejada, Lucas Duda and Kirk Nieuwenhuis, among others.” – and that he had been saying that before as well.
Doesn’t matter what we think of Paul as an Assistant General Manager – what he said above is completely true. So whatever one wants to say about Omar, the rap that Sandy had to rebuild a dried up minor league system which was sacrificed in order to “win now” was unfounded.
No it wasn’t unfounded at all. What we had was quantity over quality. That can change if Davis and Harvey turn into stars but the minor league system was not very good when he got fired. I’d rather have less players but more talent than more players with average talent. This franchise has done a piss poor job developing talent for far too long. The difference between Steve Phillips and Omar Minaya is 4 different domestic scouts. Other than that the scouting staff was the same under both GM’s
Bingo. I never ceased to be amused by those who sit here day in and day out bemoaning the lack of talent on our major league roster and then sing the praises of Omar. Exactly who drafted all these guys?
There isn’t a single player on the major league roster with the exception of Wright and maybe Ike who is an above average position player. Not one.
The only reason most of these guys are on a major league roster, including the outfield which everyone hates, is because these are the guys Omar left the team after spending all of Fred’s money on guys like Beltran and Santana.
Do you expect him to say something like “well, it’s all crap. Not one notable player”?
Besides, Minaya did leave the farm better than he found it. Once again, low bar. He did not build it up enough in his 6 years. Maybe 3 big league starters have come up since Mianya was hired.
The rest have been guys who can barely hit and can’t field. How many 1B/DH type guys do we have out there?
You understand that players like Kirk and Duda are why we need an OF overhaul today right Joey? You realize Gee is a good 4/5 starter and Tejada is most likely a defensive minded IF? I mean it’s not like the guys “left for sandy” are winning individual awards right now.
Honestly if you leave a GM post and defend yourself by saying “I left the new guy Duda and Kirk.” then there is a reason you’re leaving.
I think Omar had some good prospects and hopefully Harvey pans out but I mean lets not pretend that things were so great down on the farm.
Hi Jessep,
But notice, when I was speaking with Metro I agreed his assertion was probably the most correct – that the system wasn’t great but not as bad as made out to be and as Metro said it was probably about average.
This is often the problem – too much extremity on both sides of the fence. Has to be all great or all bad. Can’t be anything in-between?
Now, I’m sure you anticipated what my response would be.
Regarding Dillon Gee as nothing more than a 4/5 starter, how come no mention of those ahead of him?
1) Harvey ranked number 34 by MLB.com going into 2012.
2) Jonathon Niese signed to a multi-year contract. Niese was drafted in 2007.
As far as Tejada, being no more than just a defensive minded infielder, how come no mention of him having hit .289 and .284 the past two seasons ? Agreed, he has no speed and little power but he does get on base.
4) How come no mention Ike Davis tied for fifth in the National League for home runs?
5) How come no mention of Parnell coming into his own last year with a 2.49 and 1.24 WHIP?
6) How come no mention of Murphy being a lifetime .292 batter?
7) How come no mention that in 796 at bats Lucas Duda has 29 home runs and 120 RBIs which shows potential for a 20 home run and 80 rbi season?
As said, does it either have to be all great or all bad? The above ain’t such bad a group to build around.
And as far as the outfield problem, why no mention that had Sandy tried to re-sign the players he had inherited we might have possibly had two 2012 all stars out there? All statements made by Beltran indicated a willingness to stay instead of the contention that all he wanted was out of here. Sandy said if he couldn’t get the type of prospects he wanted the next strategy would be to possibly pursue money – so whom was it that wanted whom out of here?
Joey – Probably because those players you name weren’t really “on the farm” when Alderson took over. Niese, Ike, Parnell, Murphy were past the point of being prospects left for Alderson.
I like Harvey, and I think nobody is suggesting the Minaya tenure brought 0 young players up. I think it’s a matter of the gap that exists where you see the best prospect Minaya’s tenure brought in was who? Maybe Niese right now? Okay, I like Niese but that’s not exactly an amazing feat. It could be Davis if he puts an entire season together…
It’s about quantity OF quality.
I cannot sit here and brag about guys like Duda when they are part of the problem right now.
I think when people downplay the Mets farm they also recognize that for 3 years out of Minaya’s 6, he didn’t have a 1st round draft pick.
We can talk about guys like Kirk, Murphy, Duda, Parnell all you want – but they are all flawed players and on a very good team they may have a tough time keeping a job.
If we forget that Minaya isn’t the one making all the draft picks and just say everybody drafted or signed via IFA are his… then I’d say his best picks were
Niese, Pelfrey, Smith, Gee, Murphy, Duda, Ike, Kirk, Harvey
Pelf was mishandled at a young age
Smith was traded away in a terrible trade
That leave you with Niese, Gee, Duda, Ike, Kirk, Murphy and Harvey then you add in Tejada… that’s over 6 years.
I’m sorry but that is not exactly an impressive list as of right now. We all hope it gets better but the fact is it’s not that good. It may not be god awful as much react, but it’s certainly not brag worthy.
Hi Jessep,
Did feel it necessary to include them because they first became Met prospects under Omar and then sent up. If we’re talking about a minor league system during the prior general manager’s term, all his history should be looked at. Same will be with the GM who succeeds Sandy – Wheeler and d’Arnaud would already be on the team and the legacy of Sandy’s minor league work should include them as well.
Fair enough?
And you do realize the overhaul is needed becuase of Wheeler and a good day that cost us the two we had right?
Duda and Kirk are NOT the problem the worst you can say is they may not be the solution to the problem Sandy caused and refused to fix in Free Agency
You mean the two that helped us reach 79 wins?
The system wasn’t left in shambles by Omar.
The major league payroll was somewhat left in shambles – mostly being the price for a nice little ” quick-fix” 3-year run from 2006 through 2008.
The farm system he left was pretty much average. Short on high upside guys but pretty deep in high floor / low ceiling types such as Gee, Duda, Nieuwenhuis and others. Which was quite a bit better than the mess Omar inherited on the farm ( but a much better payroll situation and two young stars under longterm team control in Wright & Reyes).
Would you rather inherit Reyes & Wright at age 22 and a 90 million $ payroll or Niese & Ike at age 24 as your best young players and a 140 million $ payroll ?
Again, Omar and Sandy have faced different tasks.
Omar’s job was to build an instant winner after 3 staight losing seasons and rebuilding the farm system, especially in Latin America. He did fine with the quick fix but later lst control of the payroll. He built the farm system alright though not good enough, quick enough.
Sandy’s task has been cutting cost to allow the Wilpons to keep the franchise and also lay the groundwork for a longterm winner, with shortterm results being a distant 3rd on the priority list.
He apparently has saved ownership the franchise, the groundwork for a longterm winner is underway but remains incomplete. The shortterm has been mediocre at best. Time will tell whether he’ll create the longterm winner he promised. Opinion on the success seems split for now. We’ll find out from 2014 through 2020…
“The new front office inherited a minor league system whose richness of talent is only now being realized and it’s good to see them admit as much. Initially, they were not very endearing of what they walked into, but that has changed with the emergence of Matt Harvey and Co.”
As has been pointed out, that isn’t true. Depo was complimentary of the talent on the farm when he got here.
Also, it is a big jump from “better than most people said” to having a “richness of talent”.
We can agree that the farm was better than most people believed. But, that is a very low bar. It was still shallow. The pitching was just better than people had anticipated.
For those who might believe DePodesta says nice things about Omar because decorum requires him to do so, just remember Kris Kline, Scouting Director for the Nats, did not believe so when commenting on the state of the minor league system when he got there.
“When we first got here — and I’m not going to name any names — but you could see that things weren’t the way they were supposed to be,” Kline said. “When Riz hired Doug Harris and all of his men, I realized … we were in a different element. There was an energy level and the positive things [the instructors] were saying to the players. ”
Paul was under no obligation to say those things then or now.
http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120201&content_id=26545734&c_id=mlb