15
2013
D’Backs Want Wheeler, Mets Don’t Match Up In Upton Deal
An article by 
Updated by Joe D. on 1/15 at 1:30 PM
According to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, the New York Mets and Arizona Diamondbacks are not a good match for a Justin Upton deal.
D’Backs GM Kevin Towers is insisting that he will not lower his trade request for Upton since the deal with the Seattle Mariners evaporated last week. ”I’m not taking less,” Towers said at the Scouts Foundation dinner. “I’m in no hurry.”
Apparently, Towers wants pitching prospect Zack Wheeler in any deal with the Mets for his star outfielder. Alderson, of course, would rename his firstborn child, Omar, before allowing that to happen. 
As I said when it first all fell apart, that offer by the Seattle Mariners set the bar for Upton’s trade value.
The fact that Upton invoked his no-trade clause was not a signal that the price had dropped on Upton or that the D’Backs were now desperate to trade him. They are about as desperate to trade Upton as Ted Berg is to put Jeff Francoeur in the Mets Hall of Fame. (Farewell, Ted)
Besides… During last week’s conference call, Sandy Alderson made it perfectly clear that he’s in no position to trade any top level prospects.
So God willing, this should close the book on any future Justin Upton posts on MMO. It has been a lot of fun chronicling this story all offseason long for you, even thought it never really had any legs in the first place.
Peace…
Updated by Joe D. on 1/11 at 3:00 PM
So all of a sudden the Mets could be looking to do something significant at the major league level. If true, it would be a first for Alderson since he got here. After Justin Upton gave the thumbs down on the potential Seattle deal, rumors abound that the Mets are reengaging Arizona on the 25 year old star.
The Mets had previously attempted to make a play for Upton earlier in the offseason, but poor Sandy passed out cold when he heard the asking price and had to be revived.
Apparently after some time to contemplate, Sandy’s had some second thoughts and could make a play for him… and then again he could not. It all depends on which writer you want to believe.
I caught MetsBlog’s Michael Baron tossing out a hypothetical that included Michael Fulmer, Wilmer Flores and Jeurys Familia… Ummm no way.
Kevin Towers may be an urban Cowboys, but he;s not going to give up his number one trade chip for that. Realistically any deal would have to include one of Wheeler, Syndergaard or d’Arnaud. Then we can talk all day about the other side dishes, but the first course is definitely going to be prime rib.
Honestly, I’d be shocked if the Mets got anything done, but it’s always fun to dream. Alderson’s idea of a blockbuster is trading superstars for prospects and not the other way around.
Have a great weekend, everyone…
Updated by Perseus on 1/10 at 9:30 PM
Earlier this evening, Justin Upton rejected a trade using the power of his limited no-trade clause to Seattle. The deal that was in place involved a large package of young talent. From MLBTR…
The Mariners offered a four-player package to the D’Backs, according to Scott Miller of CBS Sports. Arizona would have received Nick Franklin, Charlie Furbush, Stephen Pryor and one of Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen or James Paxton.
Many other teams have been in talks with the D-backs about Justin Upton, including the Braves, Rangers, Padres, Orioles, and our own Mets.
The teams that are currently on Upton’s limited NTC are the Mariners, Blue Jays, Red Sox, and Cubs. Upton, 25, has three years and $28.5 million remaining on a six-year deal he signed in March of 2010.
Walker, Hultzen, Paxton, and Franklin are ranked #2-6 respectively in the Mariners farm system, by John Sickels and by Baseball America. Stephen Pryor fell just outside the top ten, ranking in at #11. The Mariners have what is considered to be a deep and strong farm system, so their potential package in this trade was huge.
Original Post by Joe D on 1/7
The Mets and Diamondbacks have had discussions about potential trades involving outfielders Justin Upton and Jason Kubel, according to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports.
Heyman adds that Arizona’s asking price was too rich for the Mets’ tastes on Upton, while Kubel wasn’t a perfect fit for the team.
I wonder what they wanted for Upton?
With Alderson you just never know because when he’s buying everything is “too pricey”, but when he’s selling “teams are not offering enough”.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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Kubel will be a free agent after 2013.
Does it make sense to part with an upside pitching prospect like Tapia or Montero for him now ?
If the DBacks are willing to do a Kubel for Duda and 3rd tier P prospect type swap such as Pill, Verrett, Goeddell, Carson, El. Ramirez, heck Akeel Morris as a flyer, sure go ahead.
But it makes no sense to part with a Top 15 prospect in the system for a player you can only Control for one year,
In that case
Team option for 2014. Reasonable too at $7.5M.
@Dick Young Lives, the option is mutual, not a team option. Which in essence makes it a one year deal because the player will opt out after 2013 and look for a long term contract.
Kubel is arguably worse than Duda in RF. I remember him in Minnesota, pretty awful in the field. Would his offense be worth that much more at Citi? Kubel’s numbers in MN (another pitcher’s park) weren’t all that great (he had one great season in 2009). Park factor has to be considered. If Duda rebounds even slightly he could actually be a comparable player to Kubel (esp. in a pitcher’s park) for a lot less money. I don’t think he’s worth it.
Makes more sense for the Mets to go after their young OF surplus than to deal with Kubel. See what they’ll want for Alfredo Marte.
Hitman, i agree. i like Marte also and not too far away from being MLB ready. Kubel would be a mistake for 1 year and be in-the-way if we signed him to an extension, with hoped-for $$$$’s freed for ’14. Familia for Marte might work. AZ gets a power arm for BP and we get a solid OF prospect with some pop.
I’d be more inclined to offer up Parnell than Familia if a power arm is what Arizona wants for Marte.
Yeah, good point. We already know what Parnell’s peak is. I’ll be greedy & prop Parnell + Montero for Marte + Pollock…!
Sounds good but I was thinking Tyler Pill could go with Parnell in this deal rather than Montero. I’d save Montero for a bigger deal, like for Stanton.
Sounds good, but would AZ do that deal with Pill included. Maybe we’d have to throw Mazzoni in also?
Hmmm. I’m tempted to counter with someone like Mejia only because I want to see how Mazzoni would really fare fully as a reliever like he’s projected to be. On top of that, he’s already in AA Binghamton, so he’s not that far away.
i hear you, but Mejia is ‘there’ already. Whether he contributes is another question, but the guy is slotted for either the rotation or relief. It’s ironic, Mejia was a top prospect until his injury. Now, everybody dismisses the guy.
It’s very unfortunate, because I am one of the very few who still believes in Mejia’s ability to cut it in the starting rotation. If it was up to me, I’d roll with Mejia getting that last slot in the rotation should they fail on getting Shaun Marcum or anyone else via trade. Before Dickey was traded, it was interpreted that Mejia would take that vacant rotation spot should Dickey be dealt. However, after the deed was done, everything changed. It’s becoming clearer to me that the Mets organization are not all that confident in him, so you might as well deal him away to another team that will know to handle him properly, and for an outfielder at that.
I’m still struggling with the idea of Kubel. I don’t see what he does for the Mets at all to be honest. His power resurfaced last year while playing in Arizona only. He was not really a big power threat outside of the hitter friendly park.
The idea that he plays average defense to me is unfounded since he is replaced for defensive purposes. He’s not a RF so you’re basically putting him in LF… so all you’re doing is adding age and payroll to LF for similar results? I don’t see the point.
Duda in LF isn’t the problem. Whoever they have in RF is the problem. So their goal should be to upgrade that position, not to laterally alter LF.
I agreed with you on just about all of that except the part about RF being the most important…
I think CF is probably the more important position as it helps Duda and the RF Platoon cover ground.
If and when we do ever jump into FA then the RF position will be the target since thats the best place to find and play a RH Power hitting player….
Thats most likely going to have to come from a BUY which means it’s not being fixed this year.
If we have no intentions on getting that then CF should be the priority to make Duda in LF a less of a liability because he could then cheat the line and let the CF cover most of Left Center.
Once again, we should involve a third team, (obviously an AL team so Duda can DH), which desires Duda & do a 3-team swing where we get Kubel from Arizona in return, BUT it would HAVE to be contingent on Kubel extending with the Mets on a 2-3 year deal before we even sign the papers on it. We put Kubel in LF and platoon Baxter/Cowgill/Brown/Neuwenheis elsewhere.
Joe can I ask you something since it’s so refreshing to talk to somebody rather than well you know… the usual.
If Duda is good enough to go to the AL and DH, why isn’t he good enough for the Mets? The defensive comparison of Duda in LF to Kubel in LF is minimal… so what are you acquiring here exactly?
What difference does Kubel make? All I see is his name was not on the 2012 roster so people like him.
Been wondering the same thing. Duda is 4 years younger than Kubel and certainly has the power to be a 30 home run guy. They are pretty comparable defensively so I don’t see what trading Duda for Kubel buys us.
I’m with jessep on this, Kubel is not that big of an upgrade over Duda defensively and for what it may cost I say pass, besides Mets need right handed pop in the outfield, not another lefty. I would rather have Upton if your going to give up anything worth trading.
I’d rather stick with Duda and hope he grows than go after Kubel. He’s pretty bad defensively and he could very well regress in Citi Field.
Now, Hitman mentions Marte above…that sounds more interesting.
I’m not so quick to giving up on Duda…
He had a bad year last year in his first FULL season but many kids do…
Just look at how Jason Heyward fell from grace and hit .227 in his sophmore year….
We used to hear daily about how great the Braves were built and Heyward was the centerpiece of that conversation, That pretty much stopped after 2011
Everyone talks about WAR and UZR and other stats but when it comes right down to it Baseball is a thinking mans game. 90% of the game happens between two players, The Pitcher and the Batter.
Pitchers will find where your weak spot is and exploit it. Batter have to recognize this and adjust. So do some don’t and thats what seperates the long career from the AAAA players.
And while Duda will ALWAYS be a defensive liability in the OF no one will care if he hits 25-30 HRs or has a BA up near .280-.300
You can compensate for that defense.
Duda may never be an All Star but you can’t have an all star at every position.
He may ultimatly be worth more in trade as a 1B to someone than he may be for us but I think it’s worth seeing another year of him at the plate before we trade him away for something.
Unless he is a piece of a package that gets you a much BETTER player because some other team sees the same potential I do in his bat.
Yeah, I’m with you man.
I think he has underrated power in his bat and could very well slam 25 HRs a year.
And if he can get tose HRs while keing his BA above .270 thats really all you can ask of a MLB player….
If he had any speed to steal 30 bases those are the hitting numbers HoJo made a career out of…
His only liability is that lack of speed thats the thing that makes his fielding so bad.
They should have never put him in RF it’s the thing that hurt him the most.
A defensive liability in LF affects a fraction of the game..
A defensive liability at 1B has a MUCH bigger affect on the game
Our infield can not afford to have Murphy play out of position, right next to Big Foot at 1B…
in a perfect world, Tejada ( who has the most range in the infield ) would move to 2B, we would get a SS with more range than Tejada, then Murphy + Ike would be packaged in a trade…the results which would bring us back a package that we flip to Florida for Stanton ( one can dream )
well…we could’ve traded Wright for a package, that we flipped for a power hitting OF, then just slide Murph over to 3B…keeping Ike + Duda + Murph + that young power hitting OF…
but met fans would jump off a bridge if their #5 uniforms went to waste so….
discombogulated 25 man roster it is !!!
I dont think the defensive difference is that minimal. Kubels biggest detriment, which is his arm, gets solved when you put him in LF. If we were talking strictly RF, then Dudas stronger arm may offset his biggest problem which is: jump on the ball. Duda doesnt get a good jump on balls off the bat because he doesnt have enough reps in the outfield to have developed that skill. Kubel is also more threatening in the line-up because in a critical situation opposing teams will fear his bat more than they would fear Dudas. His veteran prescence would physchologically balance the line-up, and probably the clubhouse too, although I dont know enough about him to know what hes like in the clubhouse. I like Duda a lot, I was one of the ones that wanted Ike sent down early in the season and replaced w/Lucas at 1B. But right now we need some sort of balance in the OF that I dont see in the FA market, sans Bourn, which I would never sign because I think Scott Boras is a POS.
Not interested in Kubel.
I think trading an arm like those two mentioned, plus Duda for another left handed outfielder who can’t field is a huge mistake. I don’t see the logic in it for this season. Kubel doesn’t put the Mets even in the wild card hunt.
I do understand the need at this point to grasp onto anything at this point, but that’s short sighted, dangerous, and pointless.
You’d be better off keeping the cheaper Duda, taking basically the same production and keeping one of your future impact arms. Kubel, at Citifield, certainly isn’t a garentee to hit 30 homers. Duda even has more power.
Sorry I don’t agree.
AND…naming Montero as a possible trade chip for Kubel is insane. Every scout loves him, he controls all of his pitches; he never walks anybody, has a great fastball, and will hopefully be a great number three one day who’ll only have to pitch as a number 5 by 2015. Him, Fulmer, and Syndergaard are the next wave of Mets top pitching prospects. Teams dream about this pitching depth and to start trading it away for a useless acquisition is insane.
Now, I’d trade him in a deal for Upton, Stanton, or a legit right handed outfielder, but for another lefty no field outfielder that nobody can say will have a better season than Duda? Nope.
Yup. Right now, trading anyone from the group of Syndergaard, Montero, Fulmer, Tapia,Mateo and Robles who are all on a similar track towards being ready for the 2015 season would be insane – unless it’s for an outfielder who can be controlled longterm.
Kubel would be a nice shortterm upgrade, basically being already what Duda’s upside probably is. However, besides Duda himself who’d be expendable with Kubel around, I’d only offer one or two of the lower ceiling upper level arms.
Anyway, doubt this is likely at this point – the Mets will give Duda a final chance…
I think I’d rather trade Familia and keep Parnell. I think Parnell turned a corner last season and will be the closer by season’s end. Familia has good upside and a cannon. He could be ready to be a set up guy this season possibly so he definately has value.
He just needs to contoll all his pitches. I think the Mets needs will move him into the bullpen with the team to start the year. Since they’re not signing any ML arms, it’ll be a nessesity. I guess it’s possible but not likely he wins the fifth starter job in the spring. Imagine if he could harness thOse rockets he throws. That would be a real great fifth starter, wouldn’t it?
“I think I’d rather trade Familia and keep Parnell. I think Parnell turned a corner last season and will be the closer by season’s end.”
When you have guys like Leathersich and Tapia, who are both on a fast track to be in the majors and are both considered closer-type material, Parnell is expendable. Familia is someone I see a premium setup man like you already said once he gets everything together with his control.
I love those guys too, but I think it would be nuts to move Parnell on the strength of some nice A-Ball numbers. None of those Brooklyn, Savannah, St. Lucie performances are anything you could hang your hat on. Whether they were great performances like Robles, Leathersich, etc. or poor performances like Nimmo, Cecchini, etc. Every team has the same storylines in A-Ball. Better to wait and see what happens in Binghamton before we get too excited or too dejected.
Parnell’s clock started 3 seasons ago, this year he will be arb-eligible…meaning by 2015, he will be unaffordable.
Meaning, he, like Ike, like Murph, like Duda, like Tejada, will probably be goners…
then the mets can blame the fans for not coming out and supporting the team
Can’t wait til spring. Lots to be excited about.
NO! Trading for Kubel is a mistake! Why swap him out for a young pitcher and someone similar like Duda. Duda is younger and Kubel strikes me as the type to suffer a random career collapse. No way!
Not crazy about high strikeout players. We already have Ike. And Nieuwenhuis caught a bad case of the K flu – not to mention The David – though he was a bit better last year.
Strikeouts are rally killers. I can’t stand seeing a strikeout with a runner on third and less than two outs. Or with anyone on base for that matter.
We need high contact line drive hitters.
I agree with you. But those types of hitters make $10 mil or more, and the ones under team control will cost you Wheeler if they are available at all. So we can lay down and die like we have been for the last two year, or try to make a go of it. Or we can just be the Pirates.
Amen Brother-
Though the Mets do have Murphy for a lot less than 10 mil. Murphy’s .290+ plus 40 doubles is my kind of hitter.
I know this isn’t popular but I would consider trading Ike to see what we can get and moving Murph to first. I don’t like him at second.
Murphy will be fine at second. The last two months of the season he proved he was a serviceable 2nd baseman especially compared to the beginning of the season. I expect him to take another step forward defensively to the level of adequate.
As for Ike, he needs to glove like he did is for year and a half. He was a bit off defensively last year (perhaps the fever, layoff, or poor hitting were affecting him). Either way, he needs to pick that back up to GG level because he is that good. And let us wait and see what kind of bat he truly is before dumping him. He might be the type of slugger the Mets need for years to come. If he can improve his BA against lefties, that will lift him overall, even if only to the .250 range. With his power, he will be a major run producer if he can do that.
You dont give up on someone like that when your lineup is devoid of power.
Murphy needs to take about 6 steps forward. Onto the infield dirt, and out of short center field!
Theres are 2 guys named Tejada and Murphy on the club…should I introduce u to them?
Joe, your hatred of Alderson is completely transparent.
Kubel isn’t a fit, it’s just that simple.
Upton’s price is onbviously high or else he’d be in Texas or Seattle right now.
Why even put in the back handed jab? Sandy did great in trading RA, you don’t just give away 20 game winners…he was right to ask for a lot. Just as Towers is in any Upton deal.
Your Montero and Duda for Kubel trade shows that you’d run this team into the ground. Yeah Sandy says they aren’t punting and then basically does nothing, but how much of that no punting crap do you think is coming from his bosses? I think all of it.
Of love to know Arizona’s demands as well, but that doesn’t mean that Sandy has screwed the Mets somehow by not giving up three or four great prospects to get Upton.
They probably asked for Brandon Nimmo and Alderson hung up.
I am fine with kicking the tires on Upton and seeing if the Dbacks want some of our lower level young pitching and then guys like Familia or Mejia. Even Synderguard… Kubel? Seems like a disaster in the making and just making moves to make moves. I would rather see what Duda has than to trade for Kubel.
Geez, how long do you need to see what Duda has? He’s 27 years old. He is what he is, a big oaf who cant get out of his own way and looks like Baby Huey at the plate. It’s a good thing you’re not a scout for the Mets. lol
Sorry Maniac but to me I would rather see if Duda is Kubel instead of trading for Kubel. What difference is it really going to make?
Why is it always the fallback option for you guys, that any player we can’t get wouldn’t have made a difference anyway? Why is that? Do you ever want to get out of this state of hellish limbo we are in or do prefer a permanent stay in this neverland?
Because we have such limited resources and Kubel isn’t worth those resources we have and isn’t a long-term solution.
We dont have the resources to sign an everyday outfielder who hit 30 homers LY. He’s making $7 mil not $17 mil.
I say lets have a friendly wager.
Duda vs Kubel in the following categories: AVG, SLG, OPS, 2B, HR, RBI, R?
Seven categories so there wont be a tie.
We can revisit it and have a permanent record right here.
You have Duda, I have Kubel.
You in?
Too faulty of a comparison because we don’t know how Kubel’s numbers would translate outside of Arizona. Again, based on the stats below were they similar players when Kubel was Duda’s age now?
Kubel last year away: .244 .309 .449 .757
Duda’s career at home: .267 .354 .429 .783
Is it worth it?
Lucas Duda ages 24-26 and first 800ish PA”
.256 .338 .427 .765
Jason Kubel ages 24-26
.266 .324 .446 .770
and first 800ish PA
.265 .320 .428 .749
Again, to me he looks like the same player.
Hi Murphy,
I thought I already mentioned this to you, but maybe I have you confused with someone else.
I don’t hate Alderson or anybody else on this planet for that matter, so please take that word out of your vocabulary when addressing me.
I don’t trust and I’m very skeptical of Alderson and I’m not trying to be transparent about it, I’m actually making it as apparent as possible.
I have my own personal reasons and one day I may share them when I am ready to.
Another blogger called me the “most in your face Mets blogger” he knows just yesterday. I don’t hide from my opinions about Alderson or anything else related to the team. I didn’t get to where I am today by tossing softballs.
But lucky you. I believe that all blogs should have a diversity of opinions and of the 41 writers we have, 35 of them love Alderson. This should give you warm and comforting feeling.
So you don’t have to find it necessary to point out my skepticism of Alderson whenever I display it. Believe me, I know my readers better than you do, and they know me too.
So in closing, I’ll respect your opinions on the Mets and the game, as I do with everyone else, and you respect mine.
That’s what’s great about a fan site like this one that embraces all opinions and not just those that reflect the site’s owner. That’s what Metsmerized is all about.
Thanks.
To Joe D.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/12/10/1869167/transcript-of-sandy-aldersons-conference-call-with-bloggers.
The above link shows what Sandy said at his initial introductory press conference.
On Moneyball:
I wasn’t hired to apply a Moneyball approach to the New York Mets. I would not have accepted the position were I required to run the Mets on a shoestring budget.
Yes I agree you can’t trust Sandy.
However when you say
NO. 1
With Alderson you just never know because when he’s buying everything is “too pricey”, but when he’s selling “teams are not offering enough”.
No. 2
When you said Dickey’s reward for winning twenty games is being traded or something to effect.
Both Nos. 1 and No. 2 are slanted journalistic reporting to make Alderson look bad:
Alderson made several deals and did land us three stud prospects.
When you reply
“I have my own personal reasons and one day I may share them when I am ready too”.
This reply is stating your NOT objective and in effect admit it.
I now spend way more time at this site than the SNY site that is totally biased. If you care to share with us what Alderson did to you maybe we will be more understanding; however as a reporter and having a HOF ballot objectivity and credibility is very important.
.
I get your point but you are missing another. Joe isn’t a journalist, he is a blogger. The only thing that any blogger really has to be careful of is making sure the reader can tell the difference of when the author is giving an option and when he is stating facts. If those two get blurry then you can call out integrity. However, if it is clear that his opinion is that Sandy stinks then so be it, as long as he doesn’t take those opinions and present them as undeniable facts.
TRS86 thanks for your post:
I am just a blogger and I am very careful to state “I am biased”,
As an example on Wally Backman I said “I am biased and would like to see him as manager”.
Speaking of Wally I said in effect maybe DW needs a Wally (implied to get a little spit fire)
Then I added DW in his defense adopts well to ALL his managers.
I pride myself in being fair and balanced.
That is why they use “IMHO”.
I think for the most part Joe does a great job of portraying his comments are opinion.
TRS86
I will take his comments in that view and accept it as that. Opinions are a two way street and are needed. They say if two partners in a business agree on everything then one partner is unnecessary.
And you (and maybe Joe) are missing another point here….
This is a prime example of the Sandy Fervor that is present around the fans of this GM and anyone who doesn’t agree with their cult is an ________ or a _______, Needs treatment or meds, should be ______ , has an Agenda….Etc…etc…
Anyone who DARES to post an honest evaluation of Sandy that doesn’t say 3 years, something special, Long Term Competitiveness, Build Farm or GOOD JOB with positive results will immediatly get attacked by the Sandy Swarm and end in a long drawn out conflict where insults fly and bannings ensue….
And to be clear I’m not saying all the folks who like Sandy do that as there are some reasonable folks who still like him and will discuss it but they are overshadowed because any discussion they may be in with someone who doesn’t agree with them is immediatly attacked by that agenda driven swarm and ruining the honest discussion that was happening….
That Swarm makes those of us who have been attacked assume all who agree with the swarm are bad (that may be unfair but it is human nature) and then start attacking decent posters because if your gonna get shot at might as well take the first shot, and bannings and arguments are the end result….
The arguments have led some to be banned and I won’t comment of the worthiness of those bans since I do not know what the infraction was that caused it specifically….
But I do know most of those who were banned were not fans of Sandy and now that they are gone they are attacking the remaining folks who do not believe Sandy is accomplishing anything….
And now Joe’s pieces stick out like a sore thumb and get attacked the way they used to attack others before merely because many are here for only one reason…To ATTACK those who dare slam Alderson and refuse to wave his cultish pom poms….
The reason why this site has been fair and balanced for as long as it has (and compared to other sites) is because JoeD had done a good job by not letting these cultish types of posters run people they disagree with off the site….
The reason why they are here NOW is because the site they used to post to has allowed them to run everyone off (using the same swarm tactics) and it’s no fun arguing with people who all agree with you….
SO they have come here, gotten banned some of the less diciplined folks by pushing thier buttons and pretty much caused the rest (me aside) from rarely posting just to avoid the crap they know will ensue.
VinnyB and Maniac used to post many times a day…I see them post less and less now….
And that means there are fewer people to attack and THAT’s no fun, thats not why some came here, they want to beat up on folks….
Well most are gone and who is left?
The guy who owns the site who happens to agree with the folks he mostly had to ban and the others who have decided talking to Zombies is not worth the time and as a result Joe is now the one thing left to attack for not drinking the Sandy kool aid.
It was inevitable that once they had dispatched all the posters who agree with Joe that Joe would become the target….and HERE IT IS!
Funny how those who see a team become a spectator in Free Agency, See a team trade for Ramirez and Torres and have it called a GOOD DAY, See the Wilpons blamed for holding Sandy back from spending despite the fact he has a BLESSING of 10-25 Million of thier money to spend, are the ones accused of having an agenda or being biased but the guys who Wave the Pom Poms and can’t even bring themselves to call the Pagan trade what it really is (a BUST) are the ones who are Sane and shame on us for not being as sane and FAIR as them….
” gotten banned some of the less diciplined folks by pushing thier buttons ”
When are adults supposed to take responsibility for their own behavior? This baiting stuff amazes me. How can an adult be baited into being banned on an internet site? Amazing.
Can’t help with that. Still looking hard for all the cult members that are worshiping at the Sandy alter.
Look in the Bathroom mirror and you might find what you are looking for….
The reverse of himself? Yeah that could very well be it.
does the person in the mirror THINK/BELIEVE different than the person it reflects?
NOPE!
You should look in the Mirror yourself mr Fence Sitter who always seems to lean to one side of the fence and NEVER makes the case for the other you claim you MIGHT agree with but never do….
When they are not put into situations where someone else atagonized them first….
What your saying is like blaming a guy who shot someone who pulled a knife on him and saying he was irresponsible because he didn’t pull a knife and shot instead…
Guys like Bayonne have been attacked almost from the second they got here….
Attack someone enough, torture them daily with the stupid crap they dished out constantly and eventually they will snap and go postal…..
It never seemed to matter if Bayonne made a post that did not insult anyone the replies would always contain an insult and then the blame would be put on him….
Yes he should take responsibiity for his actions….So too should the ones who were involved in making the situation occurr!
As I have said before when two people get into a fight in a club BOTH are thrown out and told to go home….
Both may be let back in a week or even a day later but no sides are chosen, no right or wrong defined, ALL those who show they can’t play civil are thrown out and in the end the one who is the least civil will get banned the most…..
And maybe one or both will learn thier lesson and stop getting involved in things that will result in being banned….
Doesn’t matter now whats done is done but it’s funny how all the folks banned are people who AGREE with the owner isn’t it? How does that happen? IS it because thw SWARM ATTACK tactics being used make it much harder to find ONE person to ban than the one who stands his ground and may go overkill to respond to the Swarm attacking?
In the end I would say Bay got banned mostly because he was one and it was easier to ban one than the MANY in the swarm….
Truth is for every thing Bay ever got a banning over I could find you equivilents from Donal and Fonzie in multiples….
Yet they are still here….
Because to do what they do they only need to start the argument and let the rest of the swarm take over while they watch the argument decline into ban worthy acts.
You like that Supreme court ruling regarding free speech and shouting FIRE in a movie house to see the reaction?
A LOT of that going on around here….
And just to be clear and fair….
Hotstreak I am counting you as one of the GOOD posters not the Swarm….
SO don’t take what I said above as referring to you….
I would rather go after Stanton than either of these two guys. Even paying more for Stanton who I think is better and would have for longer period than Kubel or Upton.
If the players is an all star major leaguer than Alderson doesn’t get them. What’s so hard to understand about that?
Sorry Maniac,
My point being that I do not think either of these are worth what we have to give up to get.
u dont trade the farm for Stanton unless u have a deal ready to extend him…
and since the mets finances are still so shaky…i doubt they offer him a 10 year 120 mil contract ( which would be a steal )
JDD,
Stanton in RF would be beyond too good to be true. Regardless of all this financial nonsense, his is controllable for 4 years, and not arb eligible until next year, so there is no doubt they could afford him for at least that span. I’m just not sure where they could sanely draw the line as far as emptying the system, but that bat is a franchise changer, no doubt.
4 years would not justify emptying the farm, Stanton is a guy u sign for 10 years and control til he is age 33…not someone u allow test the market at age 27…to then offer him a 8 year contract at max price.
Smart money extends guys like Stanton and Ike and Tejada …
Scared money waits and sees how they work out…cries broke when the yankees, dodgers, red sox blow them out the water
Right, like the Mets did with Niese.
“With Alderson you just never know because when he’s buying everything is “too pricey”, but when he’s selling “teams are not offering enough”.”
But I think that’s the way a good GM should approach trades. Of course, that strategy has the potential to backfire and he can overdo it. But he did get back Wheeler, D’Arnaud and Syndergaard by employing that exact strategy. Not too shabby,
And how did it work out for him with Pagan and Beato?
They kind of offset each other and since those are the only 4 trades he has made in 4 years I think that in itself shows the approach doesn’t work and why he had to pull teeth to get what he got for a Cy Young winner which was far less than he wanted originally which was two top near MLB ready prospects of which he really only got one.
The other prospect is in A Ball…
Huh? LOL, Beato had very little value when they traded him. I’m not sure why you think anyone would give up anything good for him. As for Pagan, I thought it was a good trade at the time. Not a steal, but a good trade because of Ramirez. Who knew he’d pitch like crap in NY at Cit? Certainly none of the fans or the analysts.
The point is, Alderson has gotten back 3 elite prospects for expendable assets. Now of course Dickey and Beltran had a lot more value than guys like Beato and Pagan, but as I said in the other thread, there is no way I see Omar making trades like that for multiple reasons. Either he’s too attached to those assets to trade them when Alderson did OR he blinks first and accepts quantity over quality.
yeah says you about Beato….
Tell me who has more value in your Sand People world?
A Young Pitcher you control for a few years or some outcast disgruntled old guy catcher who hits .220?
Is Shoppach more valuable to your way of thinking than Beato? And if yes then why all this crap about trading old guys for kids from you every day of the week and 16 times on Sunday?
LOL, what’s with the sand people? I root for the Mets. Neither Beato and Shoppach have much value. Don’t know why anyone would get excited about either player. You do know the RS designated Beato for assignment, don’t you? They exposed him to a waiver claim. That’s how much value he has right now! Virtually none.
DO you? Root for the Mets? Or just look for reasonsto root for Sandy and pathim o the back?
Mets are worse since he came here in case you hadn’t noticed the Win Column….
And you avoide the question I asked…
Who was MORE valuable? Beato or Shoppach?
Sounds like you look for reasons to root for Omar and pat him on the back, even though he’s long gone,
Mets are a little worse since Alderson came aboard — not a lot — and in case you hadn’t noticed, he’s had peanuts to work with each winter he’s been here. Plus some pretty stinky albatross contracts to deal with. And the farm system was nothing to write home about. I’m not sure how one can expect a whole lot more given how little he’s had to work with.
And I wasn’t avoiding your question. I thought I answered it by saying neither has much value. They are both pretty worthless. Toss a coin. While Beato is younger and presumably has some upside, Shoppach is a catcher with veteran skills. So they both have a little going for them, but not too much,
ll ifyou hink that then your showing your ignorance and your newness to the site….
Because I bitched Mightily about Omar not getting enough Pitching to win and signing Bay instead of going all out to get Halladay which would have made 2010 a lot more interesting…
Well Metsie, if you think I’m just looking to give Alderson a pat on the back, then you’re showing your ignorance. Because I’ve bitched plenty about certain actions of Alderson, specifically some of his bullpen moves.
from where we were at the end of 2010, we are weaker today at CF – RF – SS-RELIEF pitching
and have made NO IMPROVEMENTS to any other part of the major league roster
of course the FIRM will say —-> “Mets are a little worse since Alderson came aboard — not a lot “
Metsie,
Once again you are proving your lack of knowledge.
Beato was released by the Sox AND CLEARED WAIVERS. It isnt only the Mets who do not value him, it is all of baseball.
But, since we already know you believe you are smarter than all over baseball, I guess we should go on your word that Beato has value.
Uh no….Try again!
He was unprotected in the rule 5 draft and we took him!
Then Boston gave up a player for him didn’t they?
So why not keep him and use him in a package to get something better?
Sure everyone passed on him after two teams gave up on him in a single year…But at the time of the trade he still had some value and more than Shoppach did!
“Beato had very little value when they traded him”
also, Pagan coming off a bad 2011
so yes, thats the PERFECT TIME to trade someone
Oh …. “Far less than he wanted originally” … lol, of course he’s going to aim high. Should he have leaked that that he was only looking for 1 elite prospect? And besides, Syndergaard is considered elite or just below it. It’s better than any trade Omar ever made.
Where would Profar be ranked in the Mets system, if he was a Met prospect? 2? 1? So figuring that Texas hasn’t parted ways with Profar or Andrus makes me think AZ started the convo with Wheeler/Harvey + a couple others. Unless AZ is OK with lower level guys, I don’t see where the fit is.
And Kubel would be nice, but I wouldn’t trade anything of worth for him, considering he’s one and done and cost 7.5 mil.
Profar IMO would be # 1 followed by Wheeler then TDA.
And if you wouldn’t trade TDA or Wheeler for Upton, there is no deal here to be had. I can’t see AZ not wanting a package starting with Harvey or Wheeler. I would probably overpay a little in prospects if it could somehow not involve Wheeler/Harvey or TDA. Fulmer, Flores, Familia and another?
What’s harder to come by, a young, above average shortstop prospect with star potential or a young, above average catcher with star potential?
Forget the overall rankings, a young catcher who projects as above average in both offense and defense is one of the most rare commodities in baseball. There simply is no more important position on the team.
Well it all really depends on what the average at that posiion is no?
If the Average Catcher is not as good as the average OFer then the fact you got an Above Average Catcher really doesn’t mean he is better to have than the Above Average OFer does it?
Thats the problem with the use of the “Above Average” as justification….
It’s a relative term, relative to what players at his position do, not what relative to all players in the league.
Profur would be the best player on the minor and major league system LMAO
I’m just curious what’s wrong with when he’s buying everything is “too pricey”, but when he’s selling “teams are not offering enough”. You’d rather have a guy who bids against himself, Ex. Luis Castillo Ollie Perez Jason Bay, you can’t have it both ways
bids against himself?
exactly who was going to play 2B for the mets in 2008 if not for castillo ( who also lured in his best friend from minnesota…some dude named johan, most folks never knew..but they co-owned a diner out in Minny )
but please…feel free to name who your starting 2B would be in 2008 if not for castillo and his 6 mil per year salary ( he made 5.5 in 2007…a 500k increase after batting .300 for the mets )
your other option that off-season was:
1 – david eckstein – turned down the mets offer of 4/24 and he also wanted to play SS
2 – Kaz Matsui – yes because after an epic collapse, replacing a .300 hitter with Matsui is the answer
3 – Nobody
I would love to hear your thoughts
also…with ollie…Omar went after Derek Lowe first…offered him a 3 year 36 mil contract…Lowe got almost double…
Omar took the same contract and gave it to Perez….
and with Bay…
after an epic year in LF, we found out Murphy was not fit for the OF…and Duda wasnt ready yet…so Bay was a stop-gap response…kinda like vince coleman…and bonilla…and alomar…and..
wait…the common denominator ?
Fred Wilpon
unless u think there was a reason they delayed announcing his signing to correspond with the season ticket package release date
Honestly, I would like to see another year of Duda. He sure was talked up last spring ( I realize that doesn’t necessarily mean much), and if he will show himself to be a major slugger, I think another year of MLB development isn’t out of the question. Frankly, I thought he went from “sucking” in the OF to “not-sucking-quite-so-badly,” and maybe, just maybe, he improves in OF again.
Kubel to replace Duda does not strike me as any real upgrade. Duda whiffs less, too.
How about trading for Alfonso Soriano…absorbing his salary…then trading him to a contender at the trade deadline?
Since we are in a rebuild phase…
Soriano has no trade.
Do you guys really think that Arizona would ask for a Domingo Tapia? Come on man, Alderson would do that in a heartbeat, they probably want Wheeler or Harvey or Upton would be a Met. I think after the Dickey trade people would have a little more confidence that Sandy can get what he wants and knows how to play the market. If I was Arizona I would want pithcers closer to majors, and Harvey or Wheeler would be what I want.
This deal won’t happen.. Kubel is actually an upgrade over what we have so… Also, i have a quick questiion, why is it that as soon as a player hits 30 HR and we won’t get him because alderson won’t trade for him, people start right away looking at excuses FOR the player??? Saying how his splits at home, his OBP etc? I don’t get this stupid facination over an washed out GM.. Seriously, it’s getting crazy
For me it has nothing to do with Alderson and everything to do with the fact that I think going with Duda over Kubel is a better choice. I understand that Kubel is most likely better right now but considering the questions of changing to Citi and the fact that they through age 26 were comparable I don’t see the upside.
LOL they may have had discussions about Upton but I would bet it went like this….
Sandy: We would like to talk about Upton
Arizona: Said fine I want Niese and Wheeler
Sandy: Nope they are untouchable
Arizona: Hey I have a Kubel that might fit your welfare budget!
Any discussion of Upton was a VERY VERY short conversation that quickly made Kubel the target of discussions.
It will then be followed by countless blog posts and comments around the net with some questioning, some mocking and some doing both as they wonder what exactly could that mean.
Joe D if I am right I want a post saying you heard it from me first.
You got it. lol
Next you’re going to tell me the Mets are interested in X…
But what the GM is asking for is too steep.
(Not a knock on Sandy, I’m just saying I’ve heard that 1000 times by now)
How did you know?
I don’t doubt that Upton’s price is too high for Sandy. (or seemingly, anyone else) Texas really wants him, made good offers, and were rebuffed because Towers insists on Andrus or Profar. I don’t think Upton is worth that much. If you look at his splits away from Chase Field, they are mediocre. Pass, Sandy, unless the price comes down, way down.
I wonder if Sandy has pressed Towers on A.J. Pollock. They probably consider Eaton untouchable, but Pollock is a close second and should be available, unless they figure Kubel will be gone soon and Upton might follow later on, and Parra is inferior. Could they be focusing on an outfield of Ross-Eaton-Pollock for 2014?
“Upton’s price is obviously high or else he’d be in Texas or Seattle right now”
Gotta agree with Murph there. Texas has been being strongly interested in Justin Upton for MONTHS now, and I don’t know how many times I’ve heard about potential “Profar or Andrus for Upton” swaps that went nowhere. You mean to tell me a team who has one of, if not, the best farm in the game, are having trouble landing Upton? All Towers is doing is either bluffing on Upton or his price needs to significantly go down. Is it really any different from when Alderson talked to Boston about getting Bogaerts and Bradley for Dickey?
For just a bit more, Texas can probably get Stanton, who is a gazillion times better than Upton, younger, better in the field, way more powerful…
me thinks AZ ends up trading Upton to the Yanks after they trade Granderson ( who is looking for a big payday next year at age 32 )
Texas trades Profur, Olt, Perez to Florida for Stanton…
Florida ends up with a stud infield…for cheap….and good pitchers….
while we fight with the expos for last place
Stud infield….like the supposed “stud infield” they had last season that fell flat on their face?
or the stud infield they had when Hanley, Cabrea, and Uggla were there
They traded Beckett ( a guy they drafted and won a ring with ) for Hanley…got 6 good years out of him…traded him for more prospects…o and they got Boston to take on Mike Lowell’s salary on top of that…
Then they traded Cabrera and Willis in an absolutely horrible trade…they got 0 back for that…
Were they gun-shy about dealing with Detroit again?
Of course not !
they got Turner who was listed as the 21st best prospect in baseball by Baseball America, and the 15th best by MLB.com
and they also got Brantly, one of the best catchers in the Mid-west league…
they did that by trading Sanchez ( a guy who was a free-agent on his way out ) and Infante
I think in the past 18 months the Marlins have gotten almost 20 prospects…
we got 4 and act as if we’re something special…
Florida’s future looks brighter than ours…
Washington’s future looks brighter than ours…
Atlanta’s future looks brighter than ours…
especially with the track record Depo has
:-/
“I think in the past 18 months the Marlins have gotten almost 20 prospects”
And yet, they still have a barren wasteland of SP depth like the Mets had a few years, even after the additions they received from Toronto in DeSclafani, Nicolino, and Alvarez.
Bright future.
Right….
Let’s see, the Mets have a major need in the OF and a severe lack of OF prospects that are anywhere near MLB ready.
Arizona has a surplus of young OF, two of which (Eaton and Pollock) would easily start for us opening day. Parra would be an excellent fit as well and he is also fairly young. Forget Kubel and go after at least one of those three…
You simply can’t go into the season with the dreck that’s there now. Duda in LF is fine, given his cost and potential, but our CF and RF right now is just unacceptable…
I agree that those are the types of guys they should be going after. ben Revere (who went to Philly) would have been an interesting option too, though the price was surprisingly high.
but a young, controlled, potential part of the foundation is exactly what they need to get, even if it means cashing in some of the young pitching chips. That is a no brainer. Harder to justify a 1-year option like kubel, especially given his profile (lefty, not a strong glove, etc.).
Joe D there’s no way I’d trade Montero or Tapia for Kubel. Yes Kubel is a better hitter than what we have now but he’s not worth giving up Montero or Tapia for.
Hey Joe D, could you update this topic?
Apparently, the Diamondbacks & Mariners agreed on a deal in which the Mariners would acquire Justin Upton. However, Upton invoked his limited no-trade clause and blocked it.
Arizona would’ve received Nick Franklin, Charlie Furbush, Stephen Pryor and either Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen or James Paxton.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/01/justin-upton-rejects-trade-to-mariners.html
LOL sorry. Seeing that kind of package Arizona would’ve got back, imagine the equivalent of what the D-Backs asked the Mets for.
No apologies necessary.
Here is one anonymous sources take of the non trade according to Rosenthal.
@Ken_Rosenthal
Upton rejected deal, and by doing so, one source said, “saved Jack Z’s job.” Package from #Mariners to #DBacks first reported by @ScottMCBS.
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/289552536946479104
Ask and you shall receive.
@BNightengale
The #dbacks offered Upton to #rangers on Thu before proposed #mariners trade but price too steep
http://twitter.com/BNightengale/statuses/289564912051707904
The price is too steep for the Rangers to get Upton? Again, the Rangers have arguably the best farm in the major leagues and they say no? Not surprising the M’s would empty out something extravagant for Upton, but at the same time, what kind of offensive supporting cast would he have in Seattle? I don’t blame him for turning down the trade.
Good looking out, Satish.
Thanks.
On topic, do you see that package? After researching those names, that is a pretty big package of prospects. It feels like the Mariners believed Upton was the difference between making them a contender OR they really believe in the depth of their farm system.
I would believe it’s moreso in believing in their depth, because like I said, even with Upton, they’re still far, far away from being contenders. What kind of supporting cast offensively would Upton have? It makes no sense. Still, the Rangers & D-Backs still being unable to reach a deal is making me suspicious.
Well, they did add Kendry and Raul Ibanez. I don’t how they view those guys, but if they feel Upton, Kendry and Ibanez are their 3-4-5 hitters for 140+ games, maybe they feel that Upton was the final piece.
Raul Ibanez? The same Raul Ibanez who was hitting .240 last season, but became a folk hero because of his postseason heroics, would help them be a contender? O_o
Outside of Morales, the Mariners have so many questions.
-After Felix, what kind of rotation do they have? They got rid of their only other decent starter for Morales in Vargas.
-What outfield do they have? (Sound familiar?)
-What do they have to surround Upton around? Montero? Smoak? Ackley?
Only thing that’s decent is the bullpen. After that….
Don’t have to convince me.
It’s pretty useful to have an Immortal on our staff. Thanks for updating this for me Perseus.
Had you guys gone with Norse mythology I guess a joke could of been made that you was in your Odin sleep.
I’m still waiting to see if Sean starts posting as Batman. In a particular MMO email chain he requested to be addressed as such.
That deal if it were in similarly ranked Mets prospects, would have meant either d’Arnaud or Wheeler, PLUS Flores, Nimmo and Montero.
Who does Towers think he is? Sandy Alderson?
Of course Upton>>>>Dickey
That price is too high for Upton, but as Alderson discovered it only takes one hungry partner.
If I’m going all in to offer something like THAT, I’m calling Miami.
Giancarlo>>>Upton
So let’s review here….
The D-Backs recently have discussed Upton with Baltimore, San Diego, the Mets, Texas, and Seattle. Everyone except Seattle have turned Towers down because of a “steep price”. What happens when he finds himself with suitors, but no bite in getting what he wants? What happens next? You can say, “Well, Upton stays put”, but I highly doubt Towers wants Upton back and wants him gone before Spring Training.
@JonHeymanCBS
it was Taijuan Walker who was the big player in agreed-upon trade that upton rejected. so walker, franklin plus 2 more.
http://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/statuses/289593381670223873
Zduriencik is by far the GM who sits on a very hot seat and needs to deliver in 2013. So, he´s bound to overpay for a hitter who is a pretty poor fit for Safeco Field.
Looking through Mets glasses, the Seattle package would be somewhat equivalent to:
Zach Wheeler (= Walker)
Wilmer Flores (= somewhat similar to N.Franklin, though with other strengths)
Josh Edgin (= somewhat similar to C.Furbush)
Jenry Mejia (= somewhat similar to S.Pryor)
Of course, the D´backs may like the Mariners´ prospects better anyway, but this would at least be in the ballpark of Seattle was willing to give.
Overall, it would sure improve the RF situation – but it would also severly hurt the midterm pitching situation with three young arms that should all see plenty of action for the 2013 Mets and could all be significant longterm pieces on the Mets staff being eliminated.
A move like that would also very much contradict the Dickey to Toronto trade. One step forward (shortterm) and one step backward (shortterm). With a huge risk that Upton isn´t a superstar but merely a well above average OF while the Mets give away a potential weapon at the top of their longterm pitching staffs and some of their better upper level pieces.
No way am I giving that.
I would do Flores, Synderguard, Duda, Edgin and Mejia? Still steep but I am not giving up either of Wheeler or TDA.
I think that’s a fair offer, actually. Would prefer Fulmer over Synder but whatever.
Doobs,
I am not sure I would call the acquisition of Upton a short-term step back. This kid is 25 and has already put up a 5 WAR season in the majors. It does appear that the price is high, and your point about Seattle GM is a good one. There is no way I would pay that price in prospects, and no way Alderson will either. And, Texas can outbid the Mets as well. Upton would clearly improve the Mets dramatically, but my concern with him is that his career home/road splits show him to be quite dependent on the hitter-friendly home park, as he is rather average on the road. Again, it is all based on price in prospects, but I think the Mets could be better off targeting Fowler or Morse. Either should cost well less than Upton, help the team now, and Folwer is controllable for 3 years as well.
Oh, Upton would clearly improve the Mets both short-term and mid-term (at least as long as he´s under contract through the end of the 2015 season).
However, parting with an enormous package of prospects or young major leaguers comparable to what the Seattle deal looked like it would very much contradict the RA Dickey trade.
Especially since it would also contradict the goal of building a team around strong young pitching. Trading three of the five most likely young pitchers to help over the next couple of years would certainly be odd.
And I doubt the D´backs would settle for multiple A-ball prospects in a trade, given how their team is currently structured.
So, unless the asking price for Upton suddenly drops or the D´backs were to accept A-ball prospects instead, I don´t see Upton landing here.
“So, he´s bound to overpay for a hitter who is a pretty poor fit for Safeco Field.”
Actually Seattle is bringing in the fences at Safeco for the 2013 season….Which is the reason they are searching high and low targeting Power hitters this offseason.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/seattle-mariners-to-shrink-safeco-field-dimensions-in-2013-100212
Wouldn’t be surprised if Miami rethinks trading Stanton.
Trust me, they have been thinking about trading Stanton despite the reports of them saying they haven’t discussed it internally. The wheels are turning right now for Marlins brass. With all these teams turning away from Upton, they’re probably working something behind closed doors with all these teams. The Orioles, Padres, Rangers….the Mets maybe? They’ll capitalize from Towers’s mistake.
LOL@ “The Mets”…………not a chance in hell….unless Miami wants to trade Stanton for Baxter straight up…Sandy will say anything more is asking too much.
I’m not gonna even object myself to give a proper response to this because you’re being ridiculous.
You may be right, Hitman. Reported on MMO tonight, the Marlins have been radio silent since that salary dump to Toronto. And now that the package for what it takes to get Upton is out, the package for Stanton takes shape on its own, absent any clamoring from Miami.
IF Mets were to nail Stanton, it’d be something like: Wheeler (Niese?), Mejia (Familia), Flores, Syndergaard (Montero), Nimmo….
My question is, would trading Wheeler, Mejia, Flores, Montero, Nimmo for Stanton make us a contending team sooner / longer from ’14 – ’17, or would we be better off (painful as it would be) to stay with the hand we have and play it?
I don’t know the answer to the question.
i do know Stanton is more worth the haul than Upton.
The Mets cannot do this deal for one simple reason. Even if they do have the pieces to acquire Upton, the Mets still are not a playoff team. That coupled with the fact that it would completely wipe out the minors of any talent would leave them in a poor position going forward. And that is the price a team pays for a weak farm system. When players become available, it cannot take advantage.
I’d say a second simple reason is he is sub par outside of Arizona.
Most MLB players stats fall off when they are on the road away from there home stadium.
With your logic we should trade Ike Davis because he splits are terrible he stinks at Citi field.
Yes, most players do suffer a drop on the road, but Upton’s road splits are just awful. I don’t mean less than his home numbers, I mean barely replacement level.
With regards to Davis, smaller sample size than Upton, and also, Upton plays his home games in the second friendliest hitter’s park in baseball and Ike plays his in one of the worst.
This is why he’d be a good fit on the Mets, although I know it will never happen with this regime…I dont see how they bring him in but just for argument sake
Justin Upton Career stats in NL EAST Ball Parks
Citi Field (NYM)
57PA .283AVG .339OBP .396SLG
Turner Field(ATL)
66PA .293AVG .388OBP .483SLG
Citizens Bank Park(PHI)
32PA .300AVG .344OBP 433SLG
Sun Life (MIA)Old stadium hasnt played in Marlins New park
77PA .250AVG .295OBP .444SLG
Upton Stats in Padres Notorious pitchers Park even more so than Citi
Petco Park (SD)
162PA .291AVG .354OBP .547SLG
I didnt mention his Safeco stats because sample size was much smaller (only 3games)although in that sample size he’s hitting for a .455AVG
Those are all small sample sizes. The fact is, his numbers have been greatly exaggerated by his home park. His strengths would be neutralized by Citi Field. 300+ PAs would expose him.
His brother would have been a better fit.
You keep pushing this argument, but almost everyone has better stats at home than on the road.
Not as drastic a difference like Upton’s splits though. Lots of hitters that play in pitcher friendly parks are just the opposite too.
Not really.
Yeah really. Just take a look at a few guys like Posey, Headley and Ike who play in pitchers parks. All 3 have much better numbers on the road and look at Beltre since he left Safeco. Then the other extreme Bruce, Cargo, Upton all have huge droppoffs in their production away from their hitters paradises that they play in. Cargo has a 1000 plus OPS at Coors and a 735 away. Bruce and Upton have huge spreads between their home and away numbers. Just to name a few.
WOW! WTF kinda logic is that
So let me get this straight the Career stats I posted in those ballparks are small sample sizes so you dont accept my argument.
Yet you want me and others to accept your argument which is………ding ding….you guessed it based on these exact SAME SMALL SAMPLE SIZES in other ball parks. Your argument is utterly unreasonable and very hypocritical
It’s a bit dfferent story…Home numbers won’t be sustained when the home changes…
Away numbers will remain relatively the same since they will be played in the same places with little difference but the swap of the series’ in your old home being replaced by the playing in your new home…
So Davis having worse stats at home here is an indication that if traded to a new home he might improve them when maintaining his away stats….
In the case of Upton his home stats are seemingly where most of his best numbers come from and if you take him out of that home your more likely to trade for the BAD AWAY stats.
With Ike you would be trading for the Better HOME because your stadium suits him more just as ARI’s stadium suits Upton more.
This is the horrible and incredibly flawed logic that would keep a team from ever being good. A crappy team is always going to be more than one player away from contending when it won’t make a move because it needs more than one player. You must love the losing since you have a lifetime excuse for the team always sucking.
“the Mets still are not a playoff team.”
And NEVER WILL BE with thinking like that!
If you wait till your a playoff team to improve or build towards a playoff race you will never get to the point where you will make the move you are waiting to make!
And if you ever DO become a playoff team you won’t make the trade because why should you your already in the playoffs!
I could see mets snagging him with a group of second tier prospects. Mazzoni 0r Fulmer, Valdespin, Tovar and Armondo Rodriguez. They can even send over Murph to play 3b. I’d like the mets to give Flores a shot at second. He could be like Dan Uggla mash homers very limited range but much higher avg. Flores has such a great bat i’d be reluctant to put him in any deal. Although with his price coming down I can see Texas jumping back in here.
The real problem is the mets will never make aan offer. They cant they would be to affraid of Zona accepting & us bringing in a quality player. We all know that’s not allowed.
You can rest assured that Alderson wouldn´t think twice if he could get Upton for a package of Mazzoni, Tovar, Armando Rodriguez and Valdespin.
Seattle was willing to part with one top 20 in all of Baseball prospect (Walker), one top 100 prospect (Franklin) and two young major league relievers (Furbush & Pryor).
The proposed “package” of 2nd tier Mets youngsters features zero top 100 (heck, zero top 200) in Baseball prospects and Valdespin who wouldn´t be a top 100 prospect either if rookie eligible.
I doubt Arizona – even if desperate – would settle for that.
Realistically, any Mets offer would have to start with one of Niese – Harvey – Wheeler and at least include one advanced bat such as Flores – Murphy – Nieuwenhuis and one of the plethora of better pitching prospects such as Fulmer – Tapia – Montero – Mateo – Mejia – Familia. And that´d be below what Seattle was willing to (over)pay.
And thus, I see no way that the Mets are willing to destroy what they perceive will be their team strength going forward, i.e. a strong young rotation.
Dooby, I was thinking of something last night. You talk about the Mets not willing to compromise their strength of young starting pitching, but what if the D-Backs were willing to offer up a young starter like Tyler Skaggs along with Upton? At this stage, Towers is not gonna get what he wants for only Upton. Whatever price he wanted for Upton, he needs to replicate that into a package of players that will suit the Mets needs. I’m thinking Upton, Marte, Skaggs, and Breslow.
Kids Kids Kids it’s always about Kids or can’t be done….
Arizona has a 1B who hit only 20 Hrs in a HR friendly park and we have a LFer who should be playing 1B who could do that and more easily.
They also have a 3B who hit .250 with zero HRs in a HR Hiters park.
You want to trade a Kid then Flores is your man there!
They need Pitching then trade them Familia or Gee maybe even Mejia…
Then you can make up the rest with guys like Valdespin or Kirk, Den Dekker hell I would even give them Nimmo and Snydergaard.
Thats way more than anyone else will give them and guess what….
It will create enough room in the Minors to sign our entire draft without excuses that there is no room for them!
Metsie,
This is a good point you make. It can also be applied to potential trades besides Upton. While the Mets are focusing on improving the farm and building a “critical mass” of prospects, they actually are at that point to some degree right now. Without praising or scolding Alderson, I think he knows that and it is why he has remained inactive to this point. There is no reason why he should not part with some of that talent right now, for an upgrade in talent that can contribute in 2013 and beyond. Upton and Fowler both fit this category (as does Stanton, but we’ll leave him out for now). I think the key here is that from a prospect perspective, the Mets would be willing to part with a few pieces, which should permit them to make one trade for a player like those mentioned. Now, they clearly will have a difficult time outbidding the competition, as Seattle is desperate and Texas has more desireable pieces, but at a minimuim they need to try and be in the mix for Upton, Fowler, and Morse, and revert to Hairston and/or a Coco Crisp type as a fallback. This situation is actually quite interesting and promising, as they have an opportunity to improve the team for 2013 and beyond based on how this OF market unfolds. The Dickey market fell into their lap, so why can the OF market do so as well?
Well I just don’t get why every trade requires starting off with Wheeler or Harvey….I think it has to do with the fact the people proposing it are lazy bastards and would prefer to overpay because how could anyone resist that deal…
As for the Dickey trade I think you may have it wrong there…
It didn’t fall in our laps he was a Cy Young dangled to the league…
That deal was made because the team that wanted him wouldn’t let the deal die so easily and gave up players that didn’t matter much to him to get the guy who did!
d’Arnaud may be the best C prospect out there but it’s not like Arenciba is a guy who holds you back. And Snydergaard may be a high cieling guy but he was not in the Blue Jay placs for the next three years…
So Toronto gave up prospects they could live without and we have those types too!
WHile we all would love to have Mejia and Familia become front line starters as they were projected to be there would be no room for either if Dickey was here the next three years!
Now they may get a shot but still we could part with either of them provided we got something we KNOW will fill a hole because we are not yet sure either of them fill a hole for us.
Flores is also the perfect prospect to trade cause there is no place to play him except 2B which already has a guy with little range who rakes near .300. Flores may have more power true but we need the power in the OF more than the IF at this point, So trade him to get it.
I just don’t get why so many people say KIDS ARE WORTH HAVING and will be VALUABLE trade chips and then in the next sentence say none of our kids are worth anything…
Well if they aren’t who is to say these kids we are getting will be?
And finally if they really want to rebuild the Minors they are going to have to do something to keep the team afloat while they do that.
Fix the MLB team to the point where .500 isn’t a problem and then use the draft to rebuild the Minors while they do it.
Cause if you can’t rebuild via the draft your never going to rebuild because you will run out of MLB players to trade to get those kids you want but can’t seem to get via the draft!
What I think is you don’t trade your MLB stars until AFTER the Minors are rebuilt!
Then you add to that well built Minors with more and greater prospects via star trades so when you are ready to promote your kids to the MLB you have MORE than enough to cover every position!
We seem to be putting the cart before the horse and as a result by september of this year all those kids we collected will be on the MLB squad and the Minors will be no better than it was before all the trades!
Congrats, Metsie you have just insulted almost every poster on this thread in one shot. Good job, my man.
Well never let it be said I’m Inefficient!
For the record, I wan’t insulted.
LOL TJ I think we both agree somewhat and certainly wasn’t trying to insult anyone….
But it’s nothing new when someone tells me I did LOL
“Well I just don’t get why every trade requires starting off with Wheeler or Harvey….I think it has to do with the fact the people proposing it are lazy bastards and would prefer to overpay because how could anyone resist that deal”.
WOW! Wu-ha
Unless AZ’s asking price from Mets comes down, I can’t see the Mets parting w/ top tier prospects for Uptown, in fact,, maybe singing Bourne and giving up the 11th pick,and silding Niehenhuis to LF/RF us a better option(althou id be hoping Bourne possibly willing to take something less this late posa a 3 year contract) as cf is endless at Citi field, having a real cf to roam wiould be a strength. The team also desparately need a power righty bat which Bourne doesnt provide.
It also just seems somewhat odd that a team would give up on a 25-year old in Uptown. I know players fall out of favor in organizations but there’s a red flag factor here in giving up top tier for him. That being said id def take a shot at Uptown..For whatever reason, giving up the other BJay prospect Noah Syndergaard ( kind of less of a emotional attachment to him) would work in a package, along w a Mejia/Familia type, as our top tier would work for me, then whatever secondary prospect/player situation as long as within reason i could live with for Uptown..
I disagree. Seatle knew they had to over pay. Your right those prospects were much better but nobody else is going to offer them anything in that ballpark. Especially coming off a down year. The only mlb pitcher or close to it i would give up is Gee. I don’t think they want to bring him to camp and by waiting they did themselves a dis service. They are all over the map right now they gave away Bauer & they want to fleece Texas for Upton. Makes no sense. Price is dropping u heard it hear first. What Zona should do is give him some extra loot to go to Sea cause that package was dope.
You know I have to wonder if this newfound zest towards going after Upton has something to do with the fact they have a pretty good idea what the Season Tickets sales are going to do this year and it has hit them that the Sales are as tepid as thier Offseason signings have been.
Not sure when the deadline for renewals is/was (used to be Early January) but if they are seeing the Fans as willing to sign renewal check as they are willing to sign players it could explain why they have a renewed interest in getting Upton and paying that price they fainted over when it was first brought up.
I tihnk Alderson realizes the owner hates Upton. Based on the the moves Towers is making he’s ready to move on. This has gone to another level where i cant see them bringing him to camp. Had they done this earlier they would have had alot more teams in. Somebody is gona get him for pennies on the dollar & i hope it’s the mets.
“I tihnk Alderson realizes the owner hates Upton.”
Im sure the D’backs realize that the Mets fanbase hates Alderson and the Mets owners as well.
So we’ll have a stale mate
I don’t think Upton is worth our top 3 or 4 prospects. Otherwise the only Upton I want is Kate.
LMAO….Dont get your hopes up Mets fans Sandy & co. always does this to you guys.
Step 1 Mets fans disgruntle with the Mets lack of activity to improve the team
Step 2 Sandy puts on his cape goes on the radio or speaks to reporters and proclaims he will do everything in his power to improve the ball club
Step 3 No improvements take place and Mets fans get antsy
Step 4 Mets fans feel betrayed and want to burn Sandy at the stake
Step 5 Sandy signs a scrub
Step 6 Mets fans ridicule and mock the signing
Step 7 Sandy signs another minor league scrub
Step 8 Mets fans lose interest and turns TV to Knick game
Step 9 Sandy and the Mets leak reports that they are interested in certain player
Step 10 Mets fans get hopes up and talk about possible trade candidates
Step 11 Sandy loses out on said player and states they KICKED THE TIRES and “PRICE TOO STEEP” and talks about minor league prospects in system and the future being bright.
Step 12 See ….step 3 and start from there
RINSE—-RECYCLE—-REPEAT!
Hi BBLB,
That was an accurate summary LOL, but you forgot step one – Sandy tells the fans that even though he has the money to spend doesn’t mean he is going to spend it.
Man of his word, that is about as honest as Sandy has ever been with the fans.
You like that wash, rinse, repeat line I mentioned some time ago. It comes in handy for many situations
STANTON86RUNS 155 HITS 35 2B 3 3B 40HR 101RBI 7SB 4CS 65BB 188 SO .270AVE
UPTON 97 165 33 6 24 80 18 8 68 154 .278
I”ll take Stanton .
Uhhhhm you said that as if Stanton was an option for the Mets….Everyone would rather Stanton over Upton
My point is that guys here are making Upton to be a superstar with what they want to give up, he is just a decent player. Kevin McRenolds was better than Upton is. Shawn Green is more his equal, do we give up the farm for Shawn Green, no. So we do not give up the farm for Upton. Stanton I can see. Upton is JUST a competent outfielder, not a SUPERSTAR.
The Mets do not have enough of a farm to get Stanton.
DUDE!
Upton will played last year at the age of “24 YEARS OLD” one year younger than our own Ike Davis whom many of us Mets fans have high hopes for. The kid has already made 2 allstar games and finished 4th in MVP voting at age 23 in 2011 and he did it with no help in that lineup. No protection whatsoever since he was in his rookie season at age 20.
He is a rising Superstar not on the level of Stanton due to his immense power but a rising superstar nonetheless.
1. I dont see anyone here wanting to give up the farm for Upton….I see them trying to formulate legit deals that would interest the D’backs…Not bogus one-sided offers like Duda/Tovar/Lagares for Upton. Upton is young talented with tremendous upside you have to give something to get if your trying to pry him away. The Mets only have space for 25 players on the active roster….8 everyday position players, 5SP, bullpen and the bench….You cant keep every prospect and the Mets have NO OUTFIELDERS anywhere on the horizon nor in the majors. Either Sandy pays a premium in free agency or he pays a premium in prospects pick your poison…but remind you many who call for this rebuild say spending got us into this mess. If 2014 is the year who will be in the Outfield in 2014? 2015? We already know 2013 we have nothing.
2. McReynolds was good but Upton is better than McReynolds was at this point in his career…thats a fact and even the stats back it up…
3. I would definitely give up a significant package of prospects for Shawn Green when he was Uptons age 24 going on 25yrs old. Shawn Green Homerun total for 8yrs from age 25 to 32yrs old were more than solid not to mention he hit for solid avg,tons of doubles,RBI’s,Good OBP,SLG, and he stole bases…..
Age
25yrs- 35 Hrs
26yrs- 42HRs
27yrs- 24HRs
28yrs- 49HRs
29yrs- 42HRs
30yrs- 19HRs
31yrs- 28HRs
32yrs- 22HRs
Metstheory22, You honestly wouldnt sign up for that in RF for 8 yrs??? Not to mention the Chemistry it would bring to this ball club reuniting Wright with a childhood friend in Upton. It would drastically improve the Mets lineup by pushing everyone behind Ike further back and also protection for Ike
1.Ruben Tejada SS
2.Daniel Murphy 2B
3.David Wright 3B
4.Ike Davis 1B
5.Justin Upton RF
6.Lucas Duda LF
7.Travis d’Arnaud C
8.Kirk Nieuwenhuis/Cowgill CF
A move like that could actually give them a chance to compete next year and also for the future…IF Sandy is interested it is because Upton is signed for the next 3yrs (will be a free agent in 2016) for less money than Shane Victorino,Bj Upton, Swisher and only a couple mill more than Pagan…If you think these free agency prices were high guess what it will be just a worst next offseason.
With all that said I dont see Sandy getting this deal done no way…It makes too much sense for him to pull off…..I see the Rangers coming out with Upton.
BBLB: Great Post:
I totally agree. I would include Wheeler in a package. Ike looks good in your lineup but so would right handed batter 1B Paul Goldsmith.
We get Upton, Goldsmith
AZ gets Ike and Wheeler
Ike sooner or later will be a D’ Back so lets get something for him before he walks which he definitively will they way he was badmouthed in public.
Sorry Dudes, but I keep Ike and Wheeler. Flores , Pitcher from Toronto and one b prospect.
Good luck trying to keep Ike because he will take a hike. Can you blame him?
Why, is Boras his agent?
LOL
What this situation clearly points out is our farm system is still extremely thin below the top 2 Darnaud and Wheeler. I agree with Doobie its best to hold on for now and hope some of the guys in the lower minors progress quickly.
thats a bit unfair…tejada, mejia, harvey would probably be another club’s top prospects…we have a very young MLB team
Ike-Murph-Tejada-Duda-
err,
Tejadas a prospect? Hes been in the majors 3 years. Murphy? not a prospect. Mejia? still a prospect. Not highly rated anymore.
Tejada came up at age 19, he is 22 now…
saying the minor league is dry is a bit misleading considering that almost every position is going to be filled by a young home-grown player
it was dry from 1987-2007 when the team had mostly guys who were from other clubs…that is a BAD combination unless u can compensate by spending ( aka the yanks )
Things are looking up the for the Mets.
Nice to see Alderson contacting Arizona considering it’s a long distance call. Those minutes add up quick. Glad to see him spending money on something
I’m sure he used his shiny new T-Mobile cell phone for the free long distance
Knowing Sandy he used his GoogleVoice account and GrooveIP app to make the call totally free!
Trading top prospects for Stanton is one thing we could argue for v against. Trading top prospects for Upton is plain dumb, IMO.
Well thank god your opinion doesnt matter
No need for insults. I’m fine to have MO tested by future results for Upton vs Syndergaard / d’Anaud or Wheeler / Montero…whatever the ridiculous package Towers wanted for Upton.
I think anyone knows that coming to the mets = wearing a bullseye on the back of the uniform
the media will be hungry to look for another person to have as a villian
castillo – gone
k-rod – gone
beltran – gone
reyes – gone
bay – ( although the media gave him enough rope to climb down the empire state building ) -gone
RA – that selfish guy who talks too much – gone
if we dont sign anyone, prepare to hear more stories of Ike’s movie-going habits, Duda’s relation to BigFoot, Jordany’s fashion tastes and the way he wears his shirts, Ruben Tejada’s lack of loyalty, working out with Jose Reyes this winter and sleeping in his house
Cleveland Indians just released Zack Wheeler’s former SF minor league teammate 25yr old Outfielder Thomas Neal. Actually he was designated for assignment to clear room on the 40man for “Nick the D**K Swisher” and today he cleared waivers so he is now eligible for free agency. I say the Mets should definitely pursue him on a minor league deal with a spring training invite. Im sure he’d be more than interested seeing that we have No Outfield.
Thomas Neal OF
Age: 25
Height: 6’2″
Weight: 220 LBS
Bats/Throws: Right/Right
He batted .314/.400/.467 with the Indians’ Double-A affiliate this past season
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=neal–001tho#standard_batting::none
Here’s a little Scouting report on him
http://kingsofkauffman.com/2013/01/12/market-fresh-thomas-neal/
Yes I know he’s not Giancarlo/Mike(or whatever he wants to be called)Stanton or Justin Upton BUT time to be realistic. Sandy isnt gonna pull the trigger on a deal for Upton or any other big name Outfielder. He is just posturing for the Mets fanbase…Window Shopping….
Thomas Neal signing would be right up his alley. And the kid is much younger with more upside than Brown and Hoffman
Not only would I’d like to see the Mets pick up Neal, but Chris Dickerson as well. In Spring Training, have all the OF guys (Baxter, Valdespin, Brown, Cowgill, Dickerson, Neal) fight it out to see what our bench will look like from an OF standpoint.
Interesting take using surplus value calculations by Dave Cameron of fangraphs. According to this, the Mariner’s trade would have been lopsided but not by that much, which makes me think The Dickey trade (particularly as it included a very valuable position prospect) was a steal for the Mets in terms of long term value.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/justin-uptons-trade-value/
I’d do it for some sort of Niese / Flores package but nothing more. I would not include Harvey / Wheeler / Syndegaard (unless Syndegaard and Flores could be the basis of a package which isn’t happening) …
What’s crazy is I was thinking Upton at Citi Field might put up Michael Saunders type power numbers, but when you consider park effect Saunders may actually show more power. I’m sure, however, that the Met brass love the fact that Upton can take a walk — what additional value they ascribe to that tool is anyone’s guess … I’d almost be more inclined to target a guy like Cameron Maybin who we can project to at least match career norms at Citi.
Ok, Ok, Ok, just trade Familia, Cecchini, Nimmo, Tapia, Puello, & Flores to the Marlins for Stanton. Realistically we know Alderson is not going to do a deal that would improve the outfield, so why are they still posting these stories.
Defending the Castillo signing??!! Hahaha…I think I’ve seen it all here on MMO
You might need a reading comprehension course. Where do you see anyone defending Castillo? Listen, RJ, if you want to see it all then I suggest a trip to Metsblog. Otherwise stay on topic sans the goofy remarks. Thanks.
It’s here in the comment section. Scroll up. I just added my comment at the bottom instead of within that longer convo.
Ok I see. When you leave a regular comment it’s addressed to the author of the post. But even still that hardly looks like an endorsement of Castillo, just an example of players who didn’t get the red carpet treatment on the way out. We get 13K readers a day so it’s not fair to bunch all of them together even if there’s an occasional off the wall comment. Thanks.
“I think I’ve seen it all here on MMO”
Thats a good thing isnt it genius?
Much better than seeing just ONE-SIDE like they do at Metsblog.
“it all” here is mostly stupidity. But you are right, Metsblog is pretty pathetic as well
excellent, now name your starting 2008 second baseman
your 2007 options via free-agency are:
Kaz Matsui
Luis Castillo
I’ll wait for your response
Re outfield situation, would like to see us sign Hairston and go with Duda, Nieuwenhuis, and Hairston. Meanwhile, Vegas outfield should be Valdespin’s, Den Dekker, and Lagares. In a perfect scenario, Duda will have a good 1st half offensively and Valdespin will continue with his much improved walk rate from winter ball without sacrificing power. Then u trade Duda at the deadline for a prospect ( continuen to strengthen the farm system) and bring up Valdespin. If Valdespin has indeed turned a corner on his plate discipline, he could be very effective in the lead off spot and in LF.
Well it won’t be perfect but I do agree if Duda hits to his potential then thats one less OF Position we need to worry about….
We COULD carry the defense if the offense offsets it and if he hits he is tradeable as a 1B for some OF as well.
Yeah Joe D, I think its time to start a new thread on this topic
Good for Alderson. Stand your ground. Look, Flores is every bit as good as the SS Seattle offered, if not better. Then I would offer any two pitchers not named Niese, Wheeler, or Harvey. Seattle offered nothing as good as Wheeler. If they insist on a lefty for the pen, offer them Edgin.
“Validating what I’ve been saying since Friday, Diamondbacks GM Kevin Towers said he is in no rush to deal Justin Upton and that he will only move him for a similar or better deal than what he agreed to with the Mariners.
That Seattle deal, or should I say non-deal, set the bar for Upton’s value.”
Joe D….
A “bar” cannot be set by a deal that cannot happen. As soon as Upton invoked his no-trade clause on that deal, it became null and void in all respects possible….including the “bar”
When a team that’s NOT on Upton’s “no trade” list makes an offer, then that’s the offer that sets the bar…..not this one! This one right now is nothing more than a fantasy in Kevin Tower’s mind!
Well he can insist on getting a lot for Upton all he wants…
Doesn’t mean he will get it that BAR was closed when Upton refused to go….
Now Towers has to deal with the problem of Upton knowing where he stands with this organization and that they would like to get rid of him. If he didn’t like it there before he sure likes it less there now!
I will bet he stays with Arizona at least until the trade deadline where someone might think they are close enough now to give up what Seattle was willing to give….
But Towers also takes the risk that Upton gets hurt or has a bad year which will kill that BAR he seemingly thinks he is drinking at that is making him so PROSPECT DRUNK…
Agree Metsie. I think it takes One good prospect and a couple of b prospects.
It may take a bit more…Maybe even 4 or 5 kids in the end…Don’t think a Wheeler has to be one of them….Snydergaard should be high enough…
We have a lot of kids who are wrong for the holes we have and even some with MLB experience who we might be forced to start in the OF like Kirk and DenDekker….
You can say TOP Prospect is the value but there is nothing more valuable than a prospect who has MADE IT to the MLB..We seem to forget that while everyone else may offer kids not a lot of MLB players in that deal they got.
And MLB players are always a bit more valuable than some unrealized cieling if you ask me.
Alderson, of course, would rename his first born child Omar, before allowing that to happen.
LOL, it’s true. And I don’t blame him for refusing to trade Wheeler.
Here’s the risk for the D-Backs … Upton becomes so disillusioned with the D-Backs because of these endless trade talks, which have been going on for years, that his performance continues to decline. So does his trade value. And whereas Towers might be able to get a near-elite prospect or two for Upton now, that return might drop considerably in the near future.
Right…Upton will be so motivated to get out of Arizona, his performance will suffer….decreasing the chance that another CONTENDER looking for a PRODUCTIVE PLAYER would want him !
Instead, Upton will be traded to the Pirates for Jose Tabata, ensuring more sub .500 seasons in a small market no one cares about !!
Yes !!!
That makes sense !!!
How about Arizona waits until the 2013 off-season…
when there will be a shortage of OF on the free-agent market
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/2014-mlb-free-agents.html
The Red Sox and Yankees will both have vacancies in both RF + CF
Both the Red Sox and Yankees are reluctant to give Ellsbury + Granderson monster contracts
You know it’s kind of rediculous to assume Upton really wants out of there….
Looking as his home splits he would be CRAZY to want to leave there at all!
Even if the KKK held meetings outside his house!
Why would Upton be motivated to get out of AZ?
The weather’s great. He’s set up for the next few years with a great salary. And he plays in a park that inflates his stats????????
How about he’s pissed at Towers for treating him as an expendable piece. His performance CONTINUES to decline, and so does his trade value.
Towers will then be painted as a moron for hot taking advantage of Upton’s value now.
Your boss probably thinks your expendable too….Maybe you should tender your resignation and look for a new employer too?
He is building his brand in a stadium that is friendly to brand building…
He really has no reason to want to leave until his numbers are enough to pay him a contract that will set him up for life, where he can pick the city he would like to live in and move to and never have to achieve what he did in Arizona ever again because the contract is guaranteed….
Doesn’t matter if my boss thinks I’m expendable or not. I don’t have a guaranteed contract covering the next 3 years for millions. If I did like Justin, why would I quit when that would cost me $40 million?????
But at least we agree that he has no motivation to get traded. Especially since he can’t call the shots with his limited no-trade.
It won’t cost him 40 Million and he sure did call the shots on the Seattle offer didn’t he?
Which is why it really doesn’t matter what THEY offerred if Towers really doesn’t want him he will have to take whatever is offered from the teams that are left and NOT on Upton’s no trade list or one that IS but Upton is willing to go to….
The point most seem to forget about the Seattle deal is they would NOT have offerred as much as they did if they had to give UPTON more money to accept the deal!
They didn’t even try to do that because for another 20 Mil he might not have turned down the trade.
So while Towers has the desire to MAKE a trade the seattle deal really doesn’t matter since it is not an offer he can take!
He can hope he gets as good or better from someone else but no guarantee it comes from someone NOT on Upton’s no trade list or any other team for that matter….
Towers is NOT in a position of power to set his price all he can do is take what is offered or keep him and deal with whatever it is that makes him want to trade Upton in the first place or makes him SEEM expendable.
And hope Upton doesn’t do something to decrease his value in the meantime even MORE than just losing a year of control has on his trade value.
He sure isn’t going to get CLOSE to what Seattle offered at the deadline or next offseason because the CHEAP year in the contract will be gone!
Yes, it will cost him $40 million if he “tenders his resignation” (quits) and looks for a new employer. He doesn’t get the balance of his contract. You can’t walk out on a contract and expect to get the money.
if Towers really doesn’t want him he will have to take whatever is offered from the teams that are left
Who says Towers “really doesn’t want him?” Being expendable is not the same thing as being unwanted. Towers will likely hold on to Upton through this year if he can’t get what he wants which is a lot. My point is that if Upton has another poor year, his trade value will decline, and the likely return for Towers will be less.
The point most seem to forget about the Seattle deal is they would NOT have offerred as much as they did if they had to give UPTON more money to accept the deal!
They didn’t even try to do that because for another 20 Mil he might not have turned down the trade.
Not sure what your point there is because giving Upton an extra 20 mil or so was probably the only chance they had to convince him to accept the deal. But even then, Upton might have turned it down, because the extra 20 over the 40 he was already guaranteed might not have been enough to persuade him to play for Seattle.
But it’s moot anyway, There is no way Seattle would 20 mill on top of the remainder of that contract PLUS give up the 4 prospects that they did.
So while Towers has the desire to MAKE a trade the seattle deal really doesn’t matter since it is not an offer he can take!
HUH? Of course Towers would take that deal. It was Justin who nixed it!
Towers is NOT in a position of power to set his price
Disagree. Towers holds the cards right now in terms of setting the price. It’s like Sandy with Dickey. Sandy held the cards in this case since AA was more desperate for a front-line starter right now.
all he can do is take what is offered or keep him and deal with whatever it is that makes him want to trade Upton in the first place or makes him SEEM expendable.
And hope Upton doesn’t do something to decrease his value in the meantime even MORE than just losing a year of control has on his trade value.
This I agree with. Towers does NOT have to trade Upton now. It’s not as if he’s set to become a free agent, or is a problem player. So at this point, Towers can afford to play hardball with his price and now lower it. That may change over the first part of the season, but now Towers does not have to move Upton.
As for calling the shots, Upton has just 4 teams in his no-trade clause. So there are 25 teams in MLB that could conceivably trade for him, and he’d have no power to nix the trade. Towers could trade him to the Cubs, Astros, KC or the Marlins and he’d have to go (not that those teams would trade for him, but that’s not the point).
It’s one of the weakest no-trade clauses I’ve ever seen. Better than nothing. But not much.
Forgot about who it was I was dealing with here…..
Moving onto worthwhile discussions….
Fine and dandy with me!
The Yankees / Red Sox / Orioles / Phillies all offer the same benefit with teams that may be just as or even more competitive than AZ
I can easily see the Yankees and Upton in a 3-way trade.
Yankees send Granderson to team X in need of a CF for prospects
those prospects and others are sent to AZ for Upton
Upton is sent to NYY
now Yankees are set in RF for the next 4 seasons at a much lower price than what Granderson would’ve commanded
Upton has an even better stadium to hit in, in a division great for hitters
everybody happy
“this should close the book on any future Justin Upton posts on MMO”
Sadly it won’t….
They can insist on Wheeler but no one else is going to give them as much at that either…
They don’t HAVE to trade Upton but they stand to lose more in value the longer they keep him.
It’s the control and the age that has him valued so high at all. And throw the Home Away Splits on top of that I think they are overplaying thier hand.
They don’t need to get a Wheeler to come out winners in an Upton Trade. And if they trade him to us chances are they look like they stole whatever they got if Upton gets here and the numbers drop as far as I expect they will playing half your games in a pitcher friendly park.
Arizona GM Kevin Towers worked for Sandy Alderson in San Diego. After watching Sandy holdout to acquire the prospects he wanted for Dickey this offseason, Towers will attempt to do the same with Upton.
I think the Rangers give them the best package since they have the prospects and are built to win NOW. Not to mention they need another power bat after losing both Hamilton and Napoli in one offseason.
Well apparently the farm system that Alderson sacrificed/punted 3 full major league seasons to build doesnt ENTHUSE other GM’s around the league…..So I wonder who’s opinions matter more the GM’s in the MLB or the bloggers who rate these systems on the internet???
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Heyman hears that the Mets won’t give up top pitching prospect Zack Wheeler as part of a deal, which shouldn’t be all that surprising. However, the D-Backs apparently aren’t enthused with the alternatives in the Mets’ system.
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Let’s see: D’Backs are looking for a high-end pitching prospect, top 20 in Baseball caliber.
They would have received one from SEA in Tajiuan Walker, so the request doesn’t seem outlandish.
The Mets won’t part with Wheeler and have no other top 20 overall P prospect in Baseball, so they’renot getting Upton. Matt Harvey won’t be traded either for that matter.
Maybe the Rangers will offer Mike Olt, i.e. an advanced top 50 in Baseball prospect, plus LH Martin Perez who also would be a top 50 overall prospect if still eligible. So far, the Rangers haven’t apparently budged on that either.
Not many teams even have the caliber of P prospect Arizona is looking for. So, either Towers needs to lower his demands or keep Upton. Or find another team – maybe the Pirates – who is willing to give up a top arm like that to anchor a package ( Cole or Taillon).
“D’Backs are looking for a high-end pitching prospect, top 20 in Baseball caliber.”
I’m looking for a 20 Million dollar check I guess because I WANT it mean that I will GET!
“They would have received one from SEA in Tajiuan Walker, so the request doesn’t seem outlandish.”
Yes but they didn’t and having someone who CAN”T have what it is your selling is not relevant anymore than someone putting a 100 Million dollar bid on your house who can’t buy really buy it forcing someone else to pay 99 Million to get the same house.
OFFERS ARE MEANINGLESS AS ARE WANTS unless someone else wants to MEET either of those criteria.
You can ask me to pay you a million for your car and even tell me someone else offered you 10 Million for it….
You know what my response is?
Go take that 10 Million offer cause you car isn’t worth that much!
uh… you know Upton declined the trade right? The gm’s already agreed on it.
Yep which means that offer is not an offer that means anything since it can NEVER HAPPEN!
Seattle may have sold the farm that doesn’t mean someone else will because there are few teams AS DESPERATE as Seattle and even fewer who would need to give up that much to get Upton.
There are other teams that Upton can refuse to go to on that list….
More teams who CAN’T beat or MEET the Seattle offer and drive the price up on him.
So thats the BEST offer they could have gotten any future offer will be LESS!
@Metsie you couldn’t be more wrong. Not only can the price on Upton go up, it could be beyond costly. 3 things are in the favor of the D’Backs, 1- Upton is locked down to a 3 year contract at a good price, which means they have plenty of time to trade him to desperate trade deadline teams competing for the Ring, 2- Upton is coming off a terrible 2012, after being ranked 4th in MVP voting in 2011, if Upton comes out in 2013 and has a hot first 3 months his price will sky rocket (think at a minimum 3 Wheelers) 3- Upton is only 25 years old and will still get better.
So unless Upton all of sudden falls a part, chances are the offer they got from Seattle will be nothing compared to what they can get if they wait, he is LOCKED down for 3 years!!!!!
Why would anyone give up MORE than Seattle was ready to give up knowing that was ENOUGH to get him?
The only thing that was set by Seattles offer was how MUCH to get a yes!
That makes the deal Seattle offered the TOP Market…
No one is going to give more than that and if they would they would have done so already!
All the DBacks did is SHOW THIER CARDS and tell the rest of the league what will beat them into saying yes….
Since they said YES and couldn’t make the deal now every offer they got for Upton will be LESS not MORE!
Because if you already told me it cost 10 dollars I’m not going to offer you 11!
It’s going to be 10 or LESS because you already showed me what the price is!
Yes they have plenty of time to trade him just as a Store has plenty of time to sell you bread…
But the closer to that expiration date you get the cheaper you have to sell the product!
They got the offer to get Upton NOW!
To get upton later means they get LESS!
Sure they can keep him….But thats not getting MORE now is it?
All they are really getting by keeping him is a player they would rather trade until someone offers them a deal they are willing to accept and whatever that deal is it will NEVER be more than Seattle offerred because GMs are not notorious for tipping GMs or paying more than it takes to get a player if your someone else. like Seattle!
Seattle set the HIGHEST bar Arizona can get….
Every deal after will be for the same or less and it’s doubtfull it will be the same because no one else seems to even come close to making a similar offer.
Agreed the D’Backs have totally severed any chance of Upton returning next year. They have been dangling him for a couple years all along saying we’re not trying to trade Upton but we’ll listen to offers for him and any other player.
But now after completing a deal with Seattle only to have Upton reject the trade they have no recourse only option now is to trade him for the best package offered.
You cant go into the season with him now because it will be a BIG distraction for the team. So no one has to match that trade offer by Seattle but they can however use it as a measuring stick. As in that offer was the ceiling in any potential future deal involving Upton this off-season.
Seattle was willing to offer more because there GM is desperate to keep his job and improve the team NOW where as Sandy Alderson doesnt give a damn about going into next season as Lame Ducks. And the Rangers and Braves arent desperate to add a bat at the expense of gutting their farm.
Seattle’s offer is based on his currentperformance from 2012, Upton had a down year, but still has plenty of talent. In 2011, Upton goes for a lot more then what Seattle offered for him. Your logic doesn’t work, Dickey in 2011 was not worth the Dickey in 2012. Upton comes back and hits 35HR’s and 115 RBI’s in 2013 the demand for his services will go up, the offers will go up, and there will be more teams trying to obtain him. That’s the way this business works. There’s no way around it.
Yeah he got allthat just on the basis of a down year…..
No he got all that in offer because in three years you can draft more kids to replace what you gave away without having to pay 20 MIl per year or have to worry about losing him to FA for a measly comp pick.
They were willing to trade for THREE YEARS of what he has showed he can do and wold not give as much away just to get ONE or TWO…
See the value of Beltran for further reference….
See the Value of Dickey as well!
“Maybe the Rangers will offer Mike Olt, i.e. an advanced top 50 in Baseball prospect, plus LH Martin Perez who also would be a top 50 overall prospect if still eligible.”
Not sure if you noticed but Martin Perez’s stock have been dropping steadily for a couple years now. His K/rate has dropped to 4.9 SO/9 in triple-A last year the year before 6.8 SO/9 also in Triple-A.
As far as Mike Olt the Rangers have been dangling him to everyone there is a reason no one has bitten yet. While he has excellent Defense at 3B and power he is also a strikeout machine whom many dont think he’ll be successful in the Pro’s….Many compare him to former Ranger Chris Davis you could even compare him to another former Ranger Justin Smoak as a highly touted prospect whom doesnt make enough contact in the pro’s to be successful. And its not like the D’backs need Olt they already have a Top 50 rated prospect 3B in Matt Davidson
TOwers is just waiting as long as he can to get the best offer possible then he will pounce on it.
Wait a minute. Metsie said anybody who suggested it would take wheeler in a deal to bring back upton was just a lazy B-word who was afraid to do the work (of finding the right combination of 4 or 5 scrubs) to make the deal happen,
Thats right Ray and I stand by that!
Like I said no one else is giving up a wheeler not even Seattle was giving up a guy as good as him!
And if Sandy pressed the issue instead of hearing the price and folding his tent (like he seems to do in MOST of the time when he is negotiating with someone be it trade partners, Free Agents and his own players) he might still get a deal done that didn’t require Wheeler!
Because Arizona isn’t tgetting better than that! They want it but he is still there isn’t he?
And as time passes the return on Upton DECREASES!
In the end they will be lucky to get 2 Mid level prospects if they wait too long to unload him.
“Like I said no one else is giving up a wheeler not even Seattle was giving up a guy as good as him!”
Actually Metsie Taijuan Walker is as good as Wheeler most say better than Zack…
But I agree with everything else you said Alderson lacks creativity when wheeling and dealing…it seems the only way he can get a good trade off is if he’s trading an Allstar for prospects. Where he can just wait,wait and wait til the other team eventually gives in when they realize all he is asking for is prospects(BIG MAYBE’s) for a PROVEN star.
Walker may be as good as Wheeler on a cieling basis or BA….
But he still has only one year in the Minors where Wheeler has three and Wheeler is practicallt MLB ready right now where Walker it will take a year or two.
So yes there are some that say he might be better but that betteris a projection and is much further away than Wheelers is…..
Which is why I’m also not as sold on Snydergaard either as the suitable 2nd prospect in the Dickey deal….Sure he is projected to be good but projections are still more about hope than reality.
RE: Sandy not only does he lack the creativity he lacks the CONVICTION (his biggest flaw both in trades and signings) to keep at it and work with someone to find the right mix of talent to get a deal done.
Case in point (back to Dickey) Sandy didn’t press and press and press toronto to give up d’Arnaud and Snydergaard he simply said no to the other offers until Toronto finally called and said ok d’Arnaud is in the deal.
He WAITS for deals to come to him and the few times he calls to see what the deal is he hears the price and gives up.
When if he pushed the issue more, Found other pieces to replace the ones he doesn’t want to pay in the deal he might have 4 or 5 more deals under his belt right now for some pretty good players.
He is not proactive at all and just because someone has a high starting price (or low as the case may be) doesn’t mean that it the ONLY deal that can be made and the ONLY terms possible.
There is something in this world called Haggling and I don’t see any sense of that it’s either “You Want to Much” or Your giving too Little…I’m hanging up to wait for the better offer!”
Thats not negotiating it’s POSTURING which seems to be a modus operandi with Sandy both in trades and in Free Agency negotiations as well!
Actually Walker has 2 full seasons in the minors, and he pitched in 2012 he spent the entire year in Double-A at only 19yrs old. Syndegaard pitched 2full levels below that in Single-A.
While you are right Wheeler is more major league ready now Walker isnt far off at all 1-2 yrs away (2tops) for a 19yr old.
Metsie,
Oh thats good news metsie, so sandy can wait and he will only have to give up 2 scrubs instead of 5 it would cost now. That is Grrrrrrrrrreeeeaattttt!!!! I am so happy I am going to go dust off my cultish SA pom poms in anticipation.
Oh ishat what your fine reading comprehesion skills gleaned from my post?
Says more about you than me Kid!
DOUBLE-STANDARD ALERT
here in 2008, this is what some of the MET players said about the fans
Schoeneweis, however, was defiant after Sunday’s game, in which he retired the only batter he faced.
“I don’t really want to care about the fans anymore,” he said. “If they want to boo, let them boo. I’m not going to take them out to dinner.”
Billy Wagner, who sits next to Schoeneweis in the locker room, seemed just as frustrated.
“If they’re booing for ridiculous reasons, you just let them look like idiots and go about your business,” he said.
Justin Upton on boos: ‘I don’t care’
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8131431/care
Guess who the media focused their attention on…
now sit there and tell me Upton would not be raked over the coals here …
Memo to Kevin Towers:
GET BENT
RE: Sandy not only does he lack the creativity he lacks the CONVICTION (his biggest flaw both in trades and signings) to keep at it and work with someone to find the right mix of talent to get a deal done.
Case in point (back to Dickey) Sandy didn’t press and press and press toronto to give up d’Arnaud and Snydergaard he simply said no to the other offers until Toronto finally called and said ok d’Arnaud is in the deal.
He WAITS for deals to come to him and the few times he calls to see what the deal is he hears the price and gives up.
Wow Metsie you must work within the organization and watch Aldersons phone calls.. It is more like Alderson told Anthopoulos to fly a kite until he gives up Darnaud, Anthopoulos could have got as creative as he wanted and Alderson would not have budged until he heard the name Darnaud. Bottom line is Alderson wanted Darnaud and got him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no need for Alderson to get creative, he had Dickey and had him signed at 5 mill, If you do not give me Drnaud then see ya, that is how creative he had to be,oh and I will take your top pitching prospect as well thank you.I guess that is a bad job on Aldersons part, I mean he got what he wanted!!!!!
I am sure Towers is holding out for the best deal on Upton as well, and unless he hears Wheeler or Harvey he probably tells Alderson to take a hike.There are many other teams in the league with prospects last time I checked that are probably making offers.You are making an assumption he gives up easily,if he did then Drnaud would not be a Met. If Towers wants to get rid of Upton before the season, why would he not go to Texas then for Olt, Perez, and probably 2 more prospects. Get creative as you want unless Wheeler,Darnaud or Harvey are in the deal the Mets wont beat that. The Mets system is just not that deep yet, they are still in the bottom 15 in terms of minor league talent, although I think that changes big time this year. Waiting it out and seeing if the price comes down is the only realistic option.
“It is more like Alderson told Anthopoulos to fly a kite ”
WHich is why he settled for Snydergaard instead of getting the prospect he SHOULD have gotten named Gose!
All it would have taken is maybe just someone else better than Nickeas!
But he likes showing ATTITUDE when BRAINS and COOPERATION would be the better play!
And yes I heard all the phone calls….
And you did too….Because your answer from Sandy was EXACTLY what I said it was….
“Screw YOU Call me back if you have something else!”
Not willing to make an effort to work with Toronto and get that one BETTER prospect that makes everyones ideas about the spending next year and 2015 Playoffs much closer to reality!
In fact if THAT was the deal we would be about a OFer and half away from competing THIS YEAR!
That and some Bullpen which it looks like we aren’t getting either because Sandy hung up when he heard the price on everyone available as quickly as he hung up n Toronto!
Look out metsie, the swarm is coming to get you with thier cultish sandy pom poms LOL !!!!!!!
Let them come so far I haven’t met a single guy who likes Sandy that is really up to the challenge!
Lots of pre-teens and Moneyballers mostly.
LOL, see that is why fans write on blogs, he got their number two prospect and 83rd overall in baseball. Gose has talent but is not expected to be a star or hit very well. Alderson got the better prospect by far who has more value in trade and more potential as a player.
LOL, see that is why fans write on blogs, Alderson got their number two prospect and 83rd overall in baseball. Gose has talent but is not expected to be a star or hit very well. Alderson got the better prospect by far who has more value in trade and more potential as a player.