3
2013
Are The New York Mets Really Rebuilding From The Ground Up?
An article by 
We have heard that the Mets are going through a complete overhaul, rebuilding the organization from the ground up.
Travis d’Arnaud jumped to the top of the Mets prospect list.
Until the trade that sent RA Dickey to the Blue Jays for prominent prospects Travis d’Arnaud and Noah Syndergaard, it sure didn’t look like a team that was rebuilding. The Dickey trade was the first action taken by general manager Sandy Alderson that signaled that the team may be undergoing a rebuilding phase.
Unfortunately, due to circumstances, the Dickey trade was not really so much a part of the rebuilding process as it was picking the pocket of a team (the Blue Jays) that is putting all of their eggs in one basket in 2013.Trading a prominent major league commodity for minor league prospects is generally the tell-tale sign that a team is entering a rebuilding phase. The question is, should the Mets be rebuilding from the ground up?
Rebuilding is a term that we generally hear coming from places like Kansas City and Pittsburgh. They always seem like they are rebuilding, don’t they? That’s because once a team takes on a rebuilding project, unless everything clicks, meaning the prospects all gel and hit their stride at the same time, there will be setbacks. Baseball prospects are about as unpredictable as lightning strikes. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Because of that, a rebuilding phase can sometimes take years to complete.
Another reason why these rebuilding teams always seem to be rebuilding is because they are generally from small markets. With little money to spend on free-agents, they have no choice but to rebuild year after year and hope that prospects pan out. The problem is, when they finally do pan out, they often lose the players due to the inability to pay them once they hit free-agency for the first time.
What ends up happening? Large market teams have no reason to build their minor league systems because they know that the prospects that are developed by the small market teams will eventually be out of their price range. They just sit back and wait to write them out a fat check. It makes you wonder if the small market team decided to start spending some money and keeping their prospects, how the power would shift in the major leagues if the large market teams could no longer subsidize these prospects.
Now the question is: Are the Mets truly rebuilding?
Let’s get one thing out in the open – large market teams don’t rebuild, they replenish. There is a major difference. Replenishing entails filling in gaps in the organization; rebuilding entails starting from scratch. The Mets should not be rebuilding, they should be replenishing.
They want to make everyone think they are rebuilding because if a team claims to be rebuilding, they think it gives them a free pass for stinking up the joint. Well that may fly in Pittsburgh. It may have flown in Kansas City. But in New York, that just isn’t going to fly.
Not to mention, this has to be the absolute worst rebuilding in the history of rebuilding. Rebuilding teams don’t sign players to $138 million contracts; they trade them. Rebuilding teams don’t let 23 of their draft picks to go unsigned; they sign them.
Unless this is some new hybrid type of rebuilding process where you don’t trade your biggest trade chip and you don’t sign draft picks, it is not rebuilding. Do you want to know what it is? It’s an excuse for not spending money. Period.
The Chicago Cubs are another team that is said to be in a rebuilding process. However, the difference between the Cubs and the Mets is that their front office has been busy all off-season signing players in an attempt to improve in 2013. They’re rebuilding and yet spending money to improve in the interim. Who would’ve thought it was possible?
What have the Mets done this winter? They have accomplished the impossible feat of being the only team to not sign a major league free-agent.
The Mets are not rebuilding, they are stalling. They were hoping the Mayans were right. But now we are in 2013 and they don’t know what to do.
About the Author: Mitch Petanick
Mitch is currently an Editor and Minor League Analyst for Mets Merized Online. His baseball experience includes being a former All-Conference collegiate baseball player who had numerous professional tryouts, and he is currently a hitting instructor. He has been involved with the game of baseball for over 30 years now as a player, coach, and consultant. Mitch is also a former Featured Columnist on Bleacher Report. You can follow him on Twitter @FirstPitchMitch.
104 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- Hotstreak: on Collins Pulled Hefner Because He Was Excited For Him: This is a question for you or...
- Neil: on Collins Pulled Hefner Because He Was Excited For Him: "Collins Pulled Hefner Because He Was Excited...
- El Sid: on Collins Pulled Hefner Because He Was Excited For Him: At least Tejada is a good defender...
- El Sid: on Cowgill and Nieuwenhuis Continue to Struggle in Minors: Bring Cowgill up and send Lagares down....
- Mr North Jersey: on Cowgill and Nieuwenhuis Continue to Struggle in Minors: Capt Kirk has been busy with his...
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5394 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
I respectfully disagree with your entire premise. A major point that you failed to mention is the new luxury tax. The only teams spending like the world is about to end are the Dodgers and Angels. Even the Yankees have shown some fiscal restraint. Believe me the fire sales will happen there at some point The fact that we traded RA doesn’t signal a change in plan. It was an opportunity that couldn’t be passed up. Nearly every other team in the league would have made that trade. I’m a patient (although my patience is wearing thin) and I’m somewhat on the fence about our current direction but I totally (but respectfully) disagree with you on this Mitch.
What part do you disagree with? Do you think the team is doing a good job of rebuilding? The luxury tax will certainly put some restraints on how some teams spend, but it will have a larger effect on teams going after big ticket items than younger prospects looking for their first payday. I agree about what you said about the Dickey trade and said that normally teams trading players for prospects could signal a rebuilding phase, but in this case trading Dickey was a no-brainer.
“Do you think the team is doing a good job of rebuilding?”
Maybe? That’s the thing, you don’t really know if a team does a good job rebuilding until the young players that are either developed or acquired are playing on the MLB team. If they develop and THEN the team spends to surround them, like what the Phillies did for example, then you will know if it worked. If not then, yeah you get stuck in neutral like the Pirates.
Also it’s kinda hypocritical when you say that the Mets are not rebuilding because they didn’t trade their best piece then say the Cubs are doing a good job of rebuilding when they too haven’t traded their best piece in Garza. Or giving the Cubs credit for spending money on a guy like Edwin Jackson while rebuilding yet critique the Mets for re-signing Wright.
“Another reason why these rebuilding teams always seem to be rebuilding is because they are generally from small markets. With little money to spend on free-agents, they have no choice but to rebuild year after year and hope that prospects pan out. The problem is, when they finally do pan out, they often lose the players due to the inability to pay them once they hit free-agency for the first time.”
So with the Mets re-signing Wright and extending Niese, wouldn’t that be the opposite of what you say above?
It’s easy right now to be negative and you make some good points. Where we all need to sit back is to realize that on both sides of this argument there are valid counter points and right now the only thing we can do is hope this process works and if not then by 2014 there will be change regardless.
The Cubs were trading Garza last year but he had an arm injury and had to be shut down ending any hopes of a trade. The team is actively shopping Soriano and Marmol. They signed a bunch of players to address their current needs – the Mets still have the same holes as they did in October. The point was you can rebuild but it doesn’t mean ignore the teams current needs simply because you are in a rebuilding phase. We have heard the Mets are putting themselves in a position to compete as soon as 2014, and the Cubs are saying the same thing…the difference is I believe it with regards to the Cubs.
I think you believe the Cubs because you are separated from it.
However, while they may have been “trying to trade Garza” they were also saying things like we want to build around Garza. I have no idea about your point on Soriano and Marmol. That’s like saying the Mets are actively shopping Bay and FFF.
I cover the Chicago Cubs for Bleacher Report so I’m not separated from it and comparing Soriano to Bay is not really fair to Soriano lol.
You are right, it’s just the closest thing the Mets had to someone who was signed to a contract that would take them eating most of it to trade.
My point is those guys aren’t trading chips, they are guys the Cubs for the most part would like to dump. They aren’t going to get top prospects for those guys IMO.
Are you serious comparing marmol and soriano with those 2 POS’s????? Are you kidding me???? This is your knowledge of baseballl????
If we are judging whether they are doing a good job at rebuilding- the jury is out- though if you watched Duda, Nieuwenhuis, and Thole last year- you would say no. I like Ruben Tejada, but he is an average player in every respect- I have never seen a no-tool player, but there he is…
Daniel Murphy and his 6 homers and lousy defense- I can do without that too.
The rebuilding has not begun in earnest yet- the Mets are 3 years away from being 3 years away….. I don’t know which Ike Davis we’re getting, we have no bullpen. But Harvey and Niese are a nice start.
N
Mitch, Great article. you’re once again back on board with us. Again, We have no idea what this FO is doing. Why sign a DW if we’re rebuilding? Why waste the maybe 1 or 2 good years he’s had left in him with a rebuilding team? Why not sign your draft picks? Why pick a C in the draft with the early picks then TRADE a CY winner for a CATCHER? i seriously don’t understand what they’re doing other than saving money for the wilpons, but the message they’re sending is very disturbing, it’s ok to suck and suck and suck? 3 straight years of this garbage, and wanna know what’s worse? How there are people STILL defending this FO and sandy alderson, that is what’s more mind boggling to me. Somehow the man is a stoic genius yet the mets are looking worse and worse. and the whole 2014 argument can be thrown out the window too, because it’s not a guarantee that wheeler and co will be successful in the bigs, no minor leaguer is, yet they’re banking all their eggs on the success of the kids they got in the minor while not moving a finger to improve the major league roster. just a bunch of rejects signing to see which one pan out so they can get pad in the back for the signing. i saw one absurd mention about billy beane and a guy he found last year that hit 21 HR, yet didn’t mention how many times billy beane has failed the past 5 years but noone gave a crap because it’s oakland. this is NY, where we expect results, and the truth is, this is the worst time to be a met fan in a long time if not ever.
” this is the worst time to be a met fan in a long time if not ever.”
Sorry you feel that way Alex, I for one am no where near as miserable as I was when the Mets were tanking every year in the mid 90′s while I was living in Braves country and they were dominant. Seriously then all I had to route for in 1993 was shells of former players and a bunch of asses.
Key word was trying… at least they try, this FO is giving the middle fingers to fans, mocking others franchise for actually spending money, being arrogant and sarcastic to players, you cannot tell me that you’re enjoying this situation..
They only thing I am enjoying about this situation is the fact that I do believe there is change coming and there will be a young core of players to build around. You may disagree, but I don’t see a reason to get heated about it.
I see guys like Wright being surrounded by guys like Ike, Niese, Tejada (players who have already arrived, supplemented by guys like Harvey, Edgin, with guys like Wheeler, Mejia, Familia, TDA coming either in 2013 or early 2014. At that point, I believe it will be time to spend money on FA to push those guys over the top.
Sorry if I can’t be all doom and gloom about the future of the team with those names around and the oldest of the group being 30.
Not one mention of Neemo or Evans or Pawlecki or Cecceriili
lmao
Because they are still too far off for me to get excited about. I think some of them have potential but give them another year or two before I think they fit in with the core above.
but you just mentioned a pitcher in A ball as someone you are counting on for the excitement in the near future
“Snyderwhatever”
You are more excited about a player you know less about
Finding Neemo !
So let me get this straight. You would prefer to have a team full of over paid over the hill players like Vince Coleman and Bobby Bonilla or more recent Ollie Perez, Luis Castillo, and Jason Bay than having a future filled youthful potential. I for one and willing to go on faith cause the only championship this team won was when I was 9 years old. IM 35. What your also saying is that what hasn’t worked for over 26 years is a thing we should just keep doing cause u know heck were trying. Teams win championships cause their trying really hard by signing old dudes that are going to suck in 2 years. Now I will be with the rest of the people in here b1thcing if say Wheeler and D’Arnaud are 28 and this team is winning and they let them go cause they don’t wanna pay um but that is a long time from now. Those of you complaining are either to young to have seen the 90′s or are jaded into thinking that spending like drunken sailors is a good thing. This FO office listened to the fan base. They got rid of 3 guys who just sucked cause we wanted them gone. They ate their salaries and said bye bye. They then got 3 poss very good to great young players for 2 guys who don’t or didn’t fit their team at that time. Give these guys a chance. NY Fans are way to impatient. Failures of Minaya are not theirs. You have to give them a chance to put their plan into place and see if it works or not before judging cause its not fair doing so.
“You have to give them a chance to put their plan into place and see if it works or not before judging cause its not fair doing so.”
That’s been my point since day one. But because people are so against a philosophy that they THINK is being applied or so impatient they are incapable of waiting to pass judgment and then in turn pass judgment on those of us who are patient and of course label us everything imaginable.
You can add David Wright to that list of over-the-hill over-paid superstars in 5-4-3-2..
Poor guys, you two certainly do have a complex.
And it’s clearly you don’t.. You’ve been defending this guy to no end since 2008… It’s getting a bit creepy your love affection for him.. yet you try to pretend otherwise. You’re starting to make me think something is up with you that you don’t wanna tell us.
Yet, I penned numerous articles advocating trading him. Yup. I am the bias one. When are you going to get Alex that I am all about the name on the front, not the name on the back. The only reason I am ever a fan of the name on the back is because of the name on the front.
you advocated trading him if he didnt resign with us…
thats not exactly the same thing…
stop lyin
Nope, sorry.
http://realdirtymets.com/2012/09/24/so-i-already-traded-dickey-now-what/
TRS -
“Of course I have already covered the fact that Wright holds a lot of power in this. IF HE CHOOSES NOT TO NEGOTIATE or has EXORBITANT demands then the Mets REALLY HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE TO TRADE HIM. Lets assume that the Mets are put in that situation.”
Your first choice was to KEEP David Wright…
stop lyin
Just-Da, I don’t have to defend myself to you in this regard. Anyone whom I give a damn about their opinions knows that I have at times advocated trading Wright. I don’t have a personal attachment to ANY player on the team so much that I would rather keep that player and stink.
There was logic in keeping Wright at a good rate as well as logic in trading him. Same thing with Dickey. The only ones IMO that were clear were Krod and Beltran.
You only advocated trading David Wright when the OTHER option was losing him FOR NOTHING
please stop acting as if you really put the pom poms away….
I have a problem with the team putting marketability above production.
Ike Davis is the best position player on this team and the player who can affect the defense on the infield the most…
Ike is the hired help…
David is the star of the show who can do no wrong…
I love Ike, but I can’t agree with this. Not yet anyway.
You’re comparing a career .300 hitter with a GG and multiple ASG appearances with a young first baseman who hasn’t played an entire season healthy yet in the MLs – who can hit HRs for sure but doesn’t hit for average – at least not yet.
Ike has excellent defense at first but let’s see what he does this season. He’s coming in healthy for a change – a year removed from Valley Fever and even longer now from that ankle injury. He needs to prove he can hit both lefty and righty pitching and get on base a bit more than just by hitting HRs.
Ike is an absolute monster…
Ryan Howard cant hit lefties for sh*t and most folks agree that he is a beast…
and Ike is Don Mattingly at 1B compared to him…
the valley fever ends careers…for Ike it just puts him in a David Wright like slump for 12 weeks
Sorry…if David Wright was hitting the way he was from 05-June of 2009, we dont have this discussion…
Since June of 2009, David Wright has never been the same…
Wright aside, we’ve yet to see what Ike can do with a full, healthy season.
I’m hoping he reaches 40 HRs AND hits for average.
JC, wrong… if you’ve been following the team for many years you know we’ve tried everything, we spend money and don’t work, we tried to build from the farm up and it doesn’t work either, it’s not as if what presumably SA and his goons are doing is gonna work either, and then guess what? If your prospects don’t pan out what then? Are we the pirates and the royals? who with a 500 season they’ll be jumping up and down with joy? come on man, you know better than that. While i rather not spend money on garbage like bay, i also don’t wanna put all my eggs in one basket and count on prospects who usually don’t pan out nor live up to the hype. at this point i feel sorry for wheeler who is being pegged by many fans as a savior, given the fact that he’s the ONLY move alderson has made that is good. if this kid struggles, then i wonder what excuse people will use to defend sandy alderson and his terrible decisions…
Alex,
I’m not sure where you going with this? You’re all over the place. So the mets have tried what Alderson is doing in the past and it didn’t work. Really? I thought he didn’t have a plan?
Your premise on if the prospects don’t pan out is crazy too. While what you’re saying is a very distinct possibility so is the scenario of free agents coming here and being beyond awful! So is the possibility of us trading our garbage for someone else’s treasure and it not working out.
“IF” “IF” “IF”!!! Guess what, if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle! The path the FO is taking bares a huge risk that the prospects may not pan out, no denying that! But they can also pan out and be under our control for a number of years and we build a long time stable franchise. If they don’t pan out they cost very little to discard. While I LOVE the players we traded for them, they were certainly on the back nine of their prime.
‘“You have to give them a chance to put their plan into place and see if it works or not before judging ….”
This, in a nutshell.
Mitch,
I agree with Sloatsburg regarding the Dickey trade – Mets would have kept him had his price not risen to deliver two top prospects. There is way too much focus on the lack of spending, which is justified based on the Wilpon/Madoff mess, the slashing of last year’s payroll, and the lack of any signings this winter. Rest assured, like it or not, this ownership has money, and some will be spent. Yes, the Cubs have spent, but they were weak in starting pitching, and Jackson was a guy that can help now and in the future, and did not cost a draft pick. Judging in mid-stream is tempting, and fills blog time when nothing else is going on, which I appreciate it as it makes baseball 365 day entertainment, but it is unfair and unwise. Let’s see what is done up through opening day, personnel and payroll-wise. If they fill the holes with capable players – CF/leadoff, RH OF bat, SP5 10-12 wins, back-end bullpen arm(s) – they should be competitive while developing core players.
Mitch -Agree in general. There doesn’t seem to be a real plan other than to cut costs. The Wheeler and and Blue Jay trades were opportunities created out of the unforseen play of two players who were well into their thirties. Beltran coming off two injury plagued seasons increasing his value with a All Star calliber 2011 and Dickey going form solid to unhitable in 2012. I do disagree about the picking of the pocket you claim on the Dickey trade. The Blue jays still have a better farm system then the Mets even w/o those prospects. Teams that want to win deal from their strengths and AA has done a great job over there building up the system and cleaning up the mess that Riccardi left. They are not just all in for 2013 but for the next several years also.
Back to our Mets, Alderson now has no more free chips to trade and he owns this ship. No more it was the last guys fault is acceptable at this point. They will really regret not keeping Reyes in the long run. He is a top 3 shortstop and is yet 30 years old. If you are handing out 138 million to a 30 year old third baseman, Reyes looks cheap by comparison. Most teams, even small market teams are keeping their stars these days meaning you better draft well if you aren’t willing to overspend on the few good free agents available each year. I have seen no evidence of that as yet.
“and AA has done a great job over there building up the system and cleaning up the mess that Riccardi left”
Hilariously, AA wanted Omar to help clean up the mess JP made….
instead he goes to San Diego to clean up the mess Depo made
In this decade, Omar >>> Sandy + Depo + JP put together
Now that is a real joke. Let us look at the wonder that is Omar.
Let me ask you, how come Lucas May and Johnson were signed last year to minor league deals? How come they were given a shot, albeit not a great one, to make the club out of ST and if not, they would play in AAA? Wouldnt that take away from another kid the Mets were grooming? Nope. Why? Because other than Thole, Omar develop no catchers. Who was there to play in AAA? Nobody. How can an organization have no catching? Welcome to Omar’s world.
Okay, lets look at the OF. Obviously it is bad also. Where are all the OF prospects? How come Fred Lewis even had a spot in AAA? Probably because of the fact that there was nobody in the organization who could play out there. Could it be because the ML team took all the talent? Look at the Mets OF now, do you think AAA is really missing them. Duda? He isnt even an OFer. Kirk? Many seem to think he is a fringe ballplayer at best. Den Dekker? Has potential. Other than him, the best Met prospect in OF cant get past A ball. Omar is so wonderful he had no OFers.
The BP sucked for years. 5 years this has been a hole. How about some of the younger pitching developed to fill that void? There is Parnell and nobody? Mejia was doing well until the Mets screwed him up. Familia? Holds some potential. But again, where is the talent to fill the holes on the major league roster. Seems there isnt any.
Hey at least there is 2nd base. Oh wait, Murphy is a converted whatever the heck he played before. Before him, there was the Hu, Eamus, Turner mess. So in 2011 and 2012 there was no talent coming out of the minors. Valdespin? Perhaps. But we know you cant count on one prospect. Where are the multitudes of players going through the organization?
Perhaps SS is a better position to look at. Naturally, when there is a mainstay like a Reyes, the need to fill the void is minimized. Yet, players leave for better deals and nothing is certain. What did the Mets produce? Tejada? A nice ballplayer in my opinion so a workable replacement. But where is his competition. Another situation where it is one young player and that is it. And how about a backup? Well, the Mets have to sign guys like Cedeno because they cannot even produce a back up middle infielder.
And this is considered a success to you? Sure Ike looks like a potential AS and Harvey the real deal. I am also high on Edgin in the BP. But when you look at a 6 year run, the truth emerges that since there is no talent at the upper levels of the minor leagues, that Omar really left the organization completely naked. There was not much there.
So what did Omar do? He worked for an owner who has the desire to spend and spend all the money he could. And you consider that a successful GM (actually VP of baseball operations)?
Really?
What catchers were in our system in 2004 when Omar got here?
hell when was the last time we drafted and developed a good catcher?
Todd Hundley ?
and Josh Thole REGRESSED under Sandy…Josh was just fine in 2010…
When Omar needed a catcher….he went and got Paul LoDuca…
when Sandy needed a catcher…he went and got nobody…
AJ P was available in 2010…he signed for 2 years / 8 mil
Russel Martin was available…he signed for 1 year / 4 mil
obviously, the great sabermetric wizard thought the catcher he INHERITED was BETTER than the available ones on the market !!!
no wait…he went and signed the former PED user Ronnie Paulino !!!
u didnt think i forgot about him did u?
Ronnie came in to be a platoon player with Josh….
exactly how is Josh supposed to learn how to bat against lefties on the bench is beyond me…
supposedly, Sandy was trying to REBUILD…which might include DEVELOPING the YOUNGER PLAYERS !!!!
So what did the sabermetric wizard do ?
he lets go of Blanco ( remember him ? ) …one of the guys Thole ( Schneider and Barajas were the other ) said he loved and was a mentor…and replaces him with a guy scrapping for playing time..
here is one of a few articles where Thole credits these guys ( in 2010 )
http://m.mlb.com/nym/news/article/2011030416819212/
In 2011, Sandy brings in Paulino…
Josh regresses…
the rest is history
>>and Josh Thole REGRESSED under Sandy…Josh was just fine in 2010…
So now you are blaming the GM for MLB players regressing by actually playing the game?
Good God.
>>obviously, the great sabermetric wizard thought the catcher he INHERITED was BETTER than the available ones on the market !!!
>>no wait…he went and signed the former PED user Ronnie Paulino !!!
For 1 year at $1.3.
What part of no money to spend still eludes you?
Omar was the one who got all the money to spend. He didn’t deliver a winner. Alderson is the one with the tight budget charged with building a team on a much smaller budget.
Exactly how many times does this have to be said before some of you understand it?
No money…except for spending it on a absolutely sh*tty bullpen…
hell just getting a veteran catcher who was cool with mentoring ( aka NOT Ronnie Paulino ) and keeping Izzy would’ve done wonders with the young staff and Thole…
But that stuff doesnt show up on a stat sheet….so mr. sabermetric wizard number cruncher cant compute common sense
hence why Mike Nikeaus was the backup catcher/mentor for Josh Thole
Real smart !
And yet, Alderson got Buck this time to mentor d’Arnaud. Why don’t you explain to me how sabermetrics justifies Buck.
Hi Boomer,
Hope you’re feeling a bit better today.
You asked “Why don’t you explain to me how sabermetrics justifies Buck.”
The answer is easy – Sandy is getting his most for the buck.
There was no sabermetric reason to get Buck but Sandy didn’t have a choice in the matter they wanted to dump his salary and have Thole to catch Dickey’s Knuckleball!
Imagine that…someone actually wanted Thole for his Defense!
Buck was part of the deal Sandy had to take to get d’Arnaud.
Boomer – It’s common knowledge that John Buck was cast off on the Mets to offset Dickey’s salary. No need to distort the facts. If your point is sharp enough it would stand on it’s own. Last thing Mets wanted was that final Nickeas for Buck part of the deal.
Not this tired debate again. We already went over this a million times.
When you compare the talent we developed from 2005-2012 with other teams, it’s about average. Ike, Niese, Harvey, Gee, Tejada, Murphy, Valdespin, Kirk, Duda, Mejia, Edgin, and Parnell stack up fine with the rest of the league during that same time frame.
.
and good point about beltran and dickey…Sandy would’ve impressed me if he traded Beltran for Wheeler in November of 2010…trading the best position player on the trade market for 1 pitcher on the outs of his own organization is not that impressive…
had we traded Mike Pelfrey for Zach Wheeler…that would’ve been impressive…
( or basically what Tampa Bay did when they traded Victor Zambrano for Scott Kazmir )
these thirst buckets in the Firm are so desperate to give Sandy credit it pathetic
Trading Beltran and Dickey in November of 2010 would have been a terrible idea.
Beltran coming off a down season on gimpy knees would probably have netted a Colin McHugh caliber prospect. Certainly not a – back then – top 50 caliber prospect like Wheeler.
And Dickey after his initial season with some MLB success would certainly not have netted a Top 20 prospect and another Top 50 prospect in Baseball but probably something closer to a Jeurys Familia and Wilmer Flores type of package. Not bad – but far below what the Mets eventually received.
These two trades were widely considered coups for the Mets – and as much as one can discuss the other action ( or lack thereof) of this front office, these two trades were brilliant cases of maximizing value. Criticizing these two trades basically show a total lack of objectivity.
Like claiming that cutting the GCL affiliate was a great idea or letting Jose Reyes walk for very little was fine shows a lack of objectivity the other way around. Both moves may have been financially motivated, still, they hurt in the big picture.
You’re premise of how the smaller market teams will develop players and then get them stolen by the bigger markets will no longer be the norm. This luxury tax has, in effect become a type of salary cap. The Mets’ rebuilding process is begining it’s 3rd year. Look, rebuilding is a very generous term when it comes to our Mets. IMO, to rebuild, you have to have had something to begin with. We were a terrible and overpaid team when SA came in and we are still a terrible but not as overpaid (I’m kidding). We talk about being a big market team and spending like a big market team. That makes zero sense to me. I don’t care if we spend big or small all I want to do is win. If I had a choice I would rather win with our own players not those we bought (but I could live with buying them too.)
I do not know much about hockey but I believe that one of the best executives in all of sports is Lou Lamoriello. THe guy build a system that can sustain winning and consistantly produced quality players at a value thaen sprinkled in the high dollar stars when the time was right.
That is what what I envisioned happening to my Mets. As I said we are in year 3 and progress needs to start showing but just because we MAY have the budget for a big ticket item, I don’t want them to spend it someone who isn’t worth it. I would love say a Cody Ross here for a year or MAX 2 at a reasonable price. Thats just not happening this year. Lets not spend for the sake of spending. I want something built here that can sustain.
So I may appear crazy but I still hold out hope (until the end of this year) that this team has a bright future and while our rebuilding process doesn’t look like it’s working there may be something brewing. F me there better be!
LOL
u can steal other teams best players and STILL be WELL below the luxury tax
smh
Toronto is a good example
Just,
I like how you took one point I made and gave one random example that really may not be true. You missed the whole premise of my point.
First off, I may be wrong because I didn’t look into the contracts of the players traded (I have a life) but I believe that most of the players coming from Miami had heavily back loaded deals (one of the reasons I believe they made us take Buck). Second, what happens to the BJ’s if they don’t win this year? They are royally SCREWED for years to come, thats what happens! They mortgaged their entire future for a possibililty in what may be the toughest division in baseball.
I would like very much to compete for these big ticket sexy big name FA and other aquisitions but I would absolutely love to field a consistantly competative team much more. That is what I feel is happening. Again, I am running short on patience, I said a million times that changes must be noticable by the end of this season with the product on the feild not the bank accounts of the Wilpons. But I do beleive there is a cultural change happening with the entire organization.
Besides, we all have to admit that there is a group that will blindly follow SA and swear by everything he does BUT there is a MUCH BIGGER and vocal group that regardless of what he does they hate the man and he could do no right in that groups eyes. I would rather be patient (and realistic IMO) and see if they do establish a winning system.
One point, but I believe the Lux Tax actually uses the Average Annual Value of a contract so backloaded doesn’t help much in that regard.
How many teams paid luxury taxes in the past 5 years?
They obviously had personal issues with R A and couldn’t wait to smear him and send him on his way.
I have lost all patience with this FO. This offseason has been a disaster this 3-headed monster was suppose to be the smartest FO in baseball picking up players that could be productive major leaguers but were blocked on their current teams. Yet somehow all we sign is AAA depth!!!!! Where are the under the radar signings everyone was clamoring for?
This may be the best off-season yet by this front office.
The Dickey trade – emotions aside – was a case of absolutely brilliantly maximizing the value of a player. Just look at pre-off season trade suggestions by so called MLB experts and compare it to the actual haul. It’s a great trade for the Mets. And while the wait was stressful, it was played perfectly.
Acquisitions like Burke, Cowgill or Brown are low risk signings with nice potential – things we saw way too little of during the last off- season where the little money available was wasted on mediocre veteran relievers.
This winter, the Mets let the market come to them instead of bidding with contenders for the services of 2nd tier complementary players.
They have also locked up Wright – the player most worthy of a longterm contract among all 2013 through 2015 free agents – longterm at a team friendly contract. Again, unless you feel your window to contend won’t open before 2017, then signing Wright was the right move. Look at the ages of the 3b leaderboards. Beltre, Aramis Ramirez, etc., i.e. playersin their mid 30s performing at high level. And once you adjust home park effects, Wright was the best of the three last season – and except for the injury plagued 2011 season has been a top 3bman since mid2004and counting…
So far, I’d say Alderson & Co deserve a B+ grade for Year1 of their tenure ( extending Dickey, building a solid team with no budget, wiggling out of the ugly KRod option, getting Wheeler for Beltran, having a very promising June draft, some nice Int. signings),
a D for his 2nd year ( letting Reyes walk for little compensation, a mediocre draft, the Pagan deal, failure to remake the pen with only Niese deal and a functional development system that has cut down arm injuries significantly looking like real positives),
while so far he’s well on B+ to A- pace again this off- season with the Dickey trade, Wright extension and – finally – interesting waiver wire additions…
And of course a B+ in the task of serving as Chief Restructuring officers regarding the payroll.
Of course the real test will come next winter when the downsizing honeymoon will be over after 3 years and not only the quick-fix obsessed fans will expect major improvements at the major league level.
So many assumptions that you made which are far fetched to say the least.
To start, like so many, you presume that Wright was going to bring a huge windfall back to the Mets in terms of prospects. The truth is he was a rental player in any trade UNLESS he was signed to an extension by that team like Dickey. Few seem to remember that the Dickey deal was contingent upon getting Dickey’s name on a contract for 3 more years. Would a team be willing to go 8 years for Wright? Maybe; maybe not. The problem, with the type of money that is involved, there are only a few teams Wright could have gone to and that brings up what would they part with? The Yankees and Dodgers were out. Would California or Texas ponied up a great chunk of their farm system? Perhaps. Or maybe they look at Wright like some of the members here…an overvalued asset who is only going to decline in years to come. Either way, I am in the camp that he, at a minimum, should have been shopped to see what the value is. But the Wilpons are concerned about what the fans think and couldnt stomach an empty Citi Field.
Another presumption that you are making is that the FA market is the place to reload from in the future. Guess what, you are incorrect. Teams are locking up their talent before they get to FA. Look at guys like Votto, Hamels, Cain, Verlander and now Wright. That is a lot of talent that never hit the FA market and that trend is expected to continue. Therefore, the only way to bring in talent is via the trade market which means that a team needs something to trade. Going into this offseason, what assets did the Mets really have to trade? Wright, Dickey, Niese, Ike, Harvey, Wheeler, and maybe Flores. That is it. Sure there are a lot of arms in the lower levels but they arent going to bring back much at this point. So how is a team going to reload if there is nothing to trade?
The final presumption you make which is far fetched is the idea that Fred does not want to spend money. Wilpon’s entire time with the Mets has been about spending money. Many of his fights with Doubleday was because he wanted to spend and Doubleday didnt. I recall Wilpon telling Phillips he had to spend more money. Fred never had a problem writing checks and agreeing to big contracts. In the last 6 years, the Mets have spent the 3rd most money in salaries in baseball. Look at any period from 1990 on, you will see the Mets were always at the top of the pack in spending. I doubt very highly that Fred doesnt want to spend, it is he cant. I dont know the Mets financial picture but logic tells me it is still struggling. They openly admitted they lost $20+M last season which, judging by attendance does not surprise me. Once Uncle Bernies money and his guaranteed 8% or 10% annually went away, the holes in the financial picture were revealed. The sad truth is none of us are sure how bad the Mets financial picture still is (notice I said Mets and not Wilpons).
The final thing you are missing is the Mets are developing a core. I see so many complaining about Alderson not working trades for Major League players like Cashen did for Hernandez. Well, the Mets have their Hernandez in Wright. People are free to disagree with the intelligence of that but the fact is the Mets view Wright as their vet to build around and provide that leadership for the younger players. They locked up Niese with Ike most likely not far behind in getting a long term contract. TDA, Wheeler, and Harvey are obviously viewed as foundational pieces going forward. At this moment, the team is looking to see what it has in Duda, Kirk, and Den Dekker and if any are keepers. The same is true for guys like Familia, Mejia, and Edgin.
So yes, this is a classic rebuilding of an organization. Get talent into the organization, develop it, work it up through the system, and then trade whatever pieces are not needed.
Yeah, I looked at teams to trade Wright to. The best I got was the Angels and Dbacks. Those were the only ones I could see in need of a 3B that had the money and were willing to go all in. I was all for a Wright for Upton deal. The Angels didn’t have as much of a fit. But honestly, how do we know that the Mets didn’t do a little due diligence while they were waiting on Wright and didn’t like the offers they were receiving?
Wait…isnt the sabermetric wizard the king of waiting for the markets to develop…
extending Wright was the FIRST thing he did…there was absolutely no intention on seeing if there was a trade partner…
Wright said he would not negotiate ONCE THE 2013 season began….
why on earth would Sandy lose all that leverage if he ever intended to use it?
you are still embarrassing yourself here
the Mets have their Hernandez in Wright”
This has got to be the most disrespectful comment i’ve ever seen in here… You should be ban for saying that…
Please read the next sentence:
“…the fact is the Mets view Wright as their vet to build around and provide that leadership for the younger players.”
This is their view which considering the contract they gave him is indisputable. I did not say I agree with this outlook but this is the position the organization has taken.
if leadership means making politically correct statements that say nothing to reporters, never making waves. smiling at the camera, kissing babies and keeping the dimples front and center..then yes thats totally true
“I doubt very highly that Fred doesnt want to spend, it is he cant.”
I think SRT would have something to say here…. LOL
I think that the Mets need to rebuild and the lack of funds made a perfect storm for sure. Yet sometimes what seems the worst at the time actually works out for the best. So if from this the Mets get a new core to build around and those players develop and then the Wilpons start to reinvest when those players are ready we could have something to be proud of. Then again, it could blow up in our faces but it’s not like we haven’t been there before.
There is a major misconception about what rebuilding is. The Mets are not rebuilding – rebuilding would involve a team stockpiling as many prospects as possible and basically starting over, which the Mets are not doing. They are simply trying to fill holes in the team from within the organization, which is not rebuilding.
The Mets do have a solid young core of players which is exciting to see as a Mets fan but when the FO doesn’t do anything to add pieces around the solid young core it becomes frustrating. Honestly, who says we couldn’t compete in 2013 if the FO made a couple of moves here and there to try and improve RIGHT NOW. The future is never guaranteed and anything can happen so why not try to pull this thing together while Wright is still young and all these young core players have fire and something to prove?
I am not so sure that the Beltran and Dickey trades agree with the fact that they aren’t stock pilling prospects. Re-signing Wright doesn’t change the overall goal of the team.
I thought the Dickey trade was great and recognize that those two trades gave us our two best prospects but the point is without those trades our minor leagues are below average. We can’t point at those two trades and say the Mets are rebuilding because of them. The Dickey trade wasn’t made as part of rebuilding, it was cashing in the chips at the right time.
Two prospects does not constitute a PILE under ANY circumstances….
And I know you all think Snydergard is a top prospect but he hasn’t showed anything to warrant that other than he hasn’t screwed up yet to change the opinion of him since he was drafted.
i find it so odd that someone can jump for Joy and get excited about a guy no higher than A Ball…
The only ones who have never used the word ‘rebuilding’ has been this FO.
There’s a plan in place. You and many other Met fans may not like it, but the plan is there and they’re working towards it. Only time will tell how successful it will be.
SRT, please…. Tell us what the plan is. Most of us don’t know it to be honest
That’s easy.
Build around young pitching in players like Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, Mejia, Familia, Fulmer, Snyderwhatever, Gee. Supplement that pitching with guys like Ike, Wright, Tejada, TDA, and hopefully Flores at 2B (a guy can dream) then when those players are ready, spend money through FA or trade of surplus to add the needs to put the team over the top.
Again, that’s clearly the plan. Just gonna have to wait and see if it works.
I think it’s pretty obvious – at least it is to me.
They no longer want 75% or better of their payroll tied into a couple of players. Given the Wilpons financial situation with the Mets these days they can’t compensate for mistakes – such as having to eat Ollie or Bay’s salary for non production.
They’re trying to get the farm system out of the basement – rated 25th or worse which is where I think we were the past few years. That, unfortunately, is not going to happen overnight. The more decent talent you have in the minors, the less you have to spend on potential overpriced FAs. I’m not saying it’s feasible to field an entire all home grown team, but the more talent you have, the more trades you can make to fill holes.
Going younger, which I think they’re well on their way to.
Going from where we were in 2006 to where we are now obviously didn’t happen overnight. And climbing back up isn’t going to happen overnight either. It appears to me though that the Mets – the Wilpons – don’t have enough in the coffers to invest in the team right now. If they did, I believe Jose would still be playing SS and Dickey would be starting for us on opening day. It looks like to me, the Wilpons are crossing their fingers that the revenue will pick up so they can hold on. I don’t know how that happens though w/o fielding a winning team.
And I still believe if not for Selig, SA would not be the GM, the Wilpons would have been forced to sell and we might be enjoying owners right now with enough money in their pockets to actually invest in the team.
Hey Mitch – let’s butt heads
First off the Dickey deal got them a catcher that everybody believes will be MLB ready by early summer, he was the crux of the deal. Getting Syndergaard was the steal, not the purpose of the trade. So I don’t really consider getting an MLB ready catcher which is the weakest MLB position as a sign of rebuild, rather a sign of retool.
“Another reason why these rebuilding teams always seem to be rebuilding is because they are generally from small markets.”
Are the Red Sox rebuilding? I’d rather do it the way the Mets are rather than throwing money at overpriced and under talented free agents just to fill roster spots. You think most Red Sox fans are happy with guys they got this winter? If you do, then you don’t live in New England.
“The problem is, when they finally do pan out, they often lose the players due to the inability to pay them once they hit free-agency for the first time.”
- This is not true at all anymore. Look at guys like McCutchen, Longoria, Upton, Mauer, Gordon, Butler to name a few. Teams are signing these players at a younger age because they want to get the best of that players ability in their uniform. Losing guys like McCutchen at age 32 isn’t a concern for Pittsburgh because they have him from age 22-31.
“Large market teams have no reason to build their minor league systems because they know that the prospects that are developed by the small market teams will eventually be out of their price range.”
- The above point disproves this theory. Getting a kid like McCutchen at age 32 is fine if the yankees want him because Pittsburgh wants to be competitive with him when he is at his best. Also the idea that large market teams do not build their farm is very wrong. Cano, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Kemp for example. Do they build quantity? Mostly no because they use a lot of their top guys in trades. But they still have quality.
“They just sit back and wait to write them out a fat check.”
Great, let them.
“Let’s get one thing out in the open – large market teams don’t rebuild, they replenish. There is a major difference. Replenishing entails filling in gaps in the organization; rebuilding entails starting from scratch. The Mets should not be rebuilding, they should be replenishing.”
They are. Are you suggesting you’d rather have Miguel Olivo at catcher and two older SP’s than wheeler and syndergaard next year?
Not to mention, this has to be the absolute worst rebuilding in the history of rebuilding. Rebuilding teams don’t sign players to $138 million contracts; they trade them.
“Rebuilding teams don’t let 23 of their draft picks to go unsigned; they sign them.”
Want to bet? Here is the greatest falsehood of all. 23 draft picks, you and everybody else use that # to over dramatize a point. How many picks did they sign in 2011? Do those picks not count? How many IFA’s did they sign? Do they not count? What if those players were more talented than late draft picks? Stop acting like you draft 40 players and they all go in uniform. It doesn’t work like that.
http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=min&year=2011 – Twins let 19 picks go unsigned
http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=sd&year=2011 – Padres let 20 go unsigned
It happens literally ALL the time, but people who want to run around like their hair is on fire are acting like the 2012 draft was a crime, conveniently ignoring the 2011 draft and the IFA signings.
You have to have a place to play these kids. You have scouts studying advanced classes and perhaps they felt their late 2011 picks and IFA’s were worth hanging onto more than bringing in a new batch of late picks? If they don’t sign 20+ 2013 draft picks then lets talk.
But lets stop pretending the 2012 draft class was a major crime
“Unless this is some new hybrid type of rebuilding process where you don’t trade your biggest trade chip and you don’t sign draft picks, it is not rebuilding.”
- Another utter complete bogus argument made by people looking for a reason to get angry. Do you know that David Wright would sign a 7 year commitment with somebody other than the Mets rather than test the open market?
Of course you don’t. If you’re a 30 year old 3B which is a weak spot in MLB and your homegrown team doesn’t want you, but NYY,PHI,ATL,LAA,LAD all need a 3B why in the world wouldn’t you hit the open market? Seriously, give me 1 good reason why you would do that?
Plus you then have to show me that those teams could offer a significant prospect package – which you cannot do.
So this idea that they didn’t trade their biggest trade chip is a joke. They did trade their biggest trade chip and they got the #1 catching prospect and a solid pitching prospect for him.
“The Chicago Cubs are another team that is said to be in a rebuilding process. However, the difference between the Cubs and the Mets is that their front office has been busy all off-season signing players in an attempt to improve in 2013.”
why because they signed Edwin Jackson and guys like Ian Stewart? Really? They released 1 of their only 2 all stars also in Bryan LaHair.
“They’re rebuilding and yet spending money to improve in the interim. Who would’ve thought it was possible?” –
So you’d rather spend money to be just as bad? Why?
There are some times when people make arguments just for the sake of being angry at the Mets. The draft signings, and the Wright trade (or lack thereof) are two prime examples of that.
I’m not angry w the Mets. And your point about teams being able to afford their top prospects like Mccutchen and Mauer is true, but then they become so strapped that they can’t added pieces around them and the teams still stink. The Cubs may not have made groundbreaking moves, but they did make some moves. What I’m afraid of is the Mets are waiting for 2014…then 2014 becomes 2015…then 2015 becomes 2016…
Jessep cant think that way. It doesn’t compute. If Alderson says that in 2014 the Mets will play championship caliber baseball than God damn it, it must be true. There isn’t a bigger shill for Alderson than this guy, he ranks up there with Cerrone and Baron. But at least the latter get paid well for it, Jessep does it for free.
I’m a shill because I understand why not every draft pick gets signed and why trading David Wright for prospects wasn’t as easy as doing it in a video game? Right.
By the way Jessep – Lahair is playing in Japan right now lol. And in your response to the draft picks not being signed – I undersdtand that draft picks don’t always get signed because they don’t have a place to play, I understand that all too well…while I was not drafted I was put on “waiting lists” with teams during my playing days who advised me that I could not be signed because there was no place for me to play in the organization. They often keep you on a waiting list and then if an injury occurs or a player moves on they can give you a call. I don’t know how that works from players being drafted – I know I was offered to be placed on an Independent League team while I waited but I doubt that is the case when a player is drafted. I think they have to wait until the following year and re-enter the draft.
“So you’d rather spend money to be just as bad? Why?”
Because they are trying dammit, they are trying… LOL. Trying to do what? Fool the fans which is exactly what some here get pissed about to start with.
You’re really shallow. I mean really shallow. Yes the opposite of not spending is spending foolishly. It’s your thinking and comments like that that create the divide. Because in three years there were no players we could have acquire that could improve the team not only this season but into 2014 and 2015. Because to shallow thinkers like you it’s a lock that Brandon Nimmo > Justin Upton. I was hoping you resolution for 2013 would be to stop with heaven and hell look at everything. Guess not.
Actually I would love to have signed BJ Upton and want to trade for Justin Upton. Thanks for playing though.
Spending foolishlyis apply to every other player out there not named david wright…. SMH
Spending a ton of money on one player is a horrible idea, except when Alderson does it. Why don’t you understand that?
Poor mitch. Hope you don’t catch some fatal disease or worse yet a brain destroying deed when you butt heads with lord sandy’s favorite gal.
You like to talk a lot of sh*t.
Mitch & Jessep have had an ongoing discussion that has yet to ever be reduced to insults and all you ever do is try to incite with your ignorance. Why don’t you just speak your mind on the post and bring something more to the table than what you have so far rather than trying to incite. Joe D has trouble enough keeping things civil without you adding to the mix.
What ends up happening? Large market teams have no reason to build their minor league systems because they know that the prospects that are developed by the small market teams will eventually be out of their price range.
Yes, look at the Mets with Reyes and the Royals with Greinke. The Brewers with Fielder, the Indians with CC.
I never thought the Mets would become a small market philosophy, but all arrows point to yes.
who ever said they were rebuilding? They pretty much have been doing what was defined as ‘replensihing”, which to me keans keeping guys that are young enough to build around but already established (and often getting paid), so in this case DW/Ike/neise at least. if they were doing a full blown rebuild they all would have been gone.
and the idea of rebuilding the organization to me means something else besides recycling the talent on the field. that was the whole build an organizational philosophy, player evaluation/development system, etc. One that is consistent from the bottom to the top (something that has helped teams like the Braves and Cards be so successful for such a long time on a modest budget).
Yes the Mets are rebuilding – just not a ” massive ” everyone must go fire sale let’s start from scratch type rebuilding” but a more gradual one
Want evidence ?
1. Dickey, Beltran, Reyes and KRod are gone.
2. Addition of three consensus top 50 in Baseball prospects via trade in Wheeler, D ‘ Arnaud and Syndergaard
3. Extra comepensation picks that have turned into Michael Fulmer and Kevin Plawecki
4. Record draft bonus spending for back to back seasons
5. Not a single prospect traded in 3+ years
6. Not a single free agent signed to a multi-year deal except for a modest two-year deal to a mediocre stopgap closer making simillar or less than several setup relievers.
7. Only 4 players on current 40-man roster age 30 or older ( none older than 33)
8. Payroll cut by well over 50 million $ in two years
9. Multiple games with an ” all homegrown” starting lineup in 2012.
10.A deeper farm system than at any point this century in place.
With signing homegrown icon David Wright who just turned merely 30 pretty much being the only argument against a rebuilding, though if you target 2014 / 2015 and not 2017/2018 as your return to contention season, even that makey a ton of sense.
Who cares what big markets vs small markets do? How do we even define the terms? Do “big markets” somehow get awarded more wins during the regular season or a game advantage in the playoffs?
Also, you assume all “big markets” are in the same situation. Or that the economics of baseball haven’t been undergoing some fundamental shifts.
People need to get off this big market/small market nonsense and start looking at how this team becomes a sustainable winner.
Buzzwords like “replenish” ain’t it. What does that mean? To fill in holes to remain where you are? Did I miss a World Series parade? This team has been mired in mediocrity for decades and you want “replenish” that? You want to just keep doing the same old thing over and over and hope that maybe, this year, we can buy a playoff appearance, if everything breaks right? And if not, just throw more money and bring in more mercenaries?
Since 1995 how many teams won the World Series from rebuilding? How many “small market” teams have won the World Series in that same 15 year period? You can ask who cares about what big or small markets do, but it does make a difference.
I noticed you started at 1995. I wonder why you excluded most of Gene Michael’s and Bob Watson’s tenure with the Yankees. I’m sure it was just a coincidence.
How many top 5 payrolls have won the WS in that time frame? How many top 5 payrolls have been busts? Does it make a difference? Sure. But I fail to see how it offers any less risk than building from within.
And, by the way, it stopped being the 90s a long time ago. Things are changing.
1995 the year they started this run….
Joe Girardi
Mariano Duncan
Wade Boggs
Paul O’Neil
Tim Raines
Darryl Strawberry
Kenny Rodgers
Dwight Gooden
Jimmy Key
David Cone
How many of those were homegrown Yankees?
How many were major contributors to their World Series teams? Because, last I checked, that was not a World Series team.
Was Kenny Rogers’ near 5 ERA afterwards what propelled them to the World Series?
And how did they acquire Paul O’Neill?
Nice little collection of role players. But according to you, guys who play in 130 games “hardly play” so I guess they were all bench guys.
And I’m sure Yankees fans everywhere would trade every game of Bernie Williams career for one more week of Tim Raines.
Just about ALL f them….and if not them then the following….
David Wells
Roger Clemons
Randy Johnson
Denny Neagle
Orlando Hernandez
CC Sabathia
Mark Texiera
Alex Rodriguez
Johnny Damon
Hidecki Matsui
Anymore questions there slappy?
I started at 1995 because that is when I turned 17 and is about as far back as I can remember and be able to speak about without looking stuff up.
Looking stuff up is not a bad thing. Working from your own memory, especially events that happened nearly 20 years ago is a very flawed method.
Most around here trusts his memor better than your supposedly looked up research….
(which none of us has ever seen you provide to date….)
what are you declaring as a small market team though?
Was Arizona in 01 a small market team because they are now? Are the Giants small market because they generally have a lower payroll yet play in a top sports market? Were the 02 Angels small market since they had a payroll in the low 60′s? Or are they not because they aren’t considered one now?
I would consider small market teams as those teams where baseball is not the #1 sport in the city, team revenue is in the bottom 33% of the league, attendance is poor. I think the MLB is doing much better to bridge the gap between small & large market teams – there is probably a middle tier in there now where the majority of the league rests.
Well I can tell you the TV definition of Small Market which is probably very similar….
A Small Market is a market that has to draw a higher percentage of the total population to equal the viewers in a larger market….
There are (example since I don’t have real numbers) lets say 10 Million people in NYC.
They only need 5% of the population to watch to get 2 Million viewers….
But in a Town that has say only 2 Million people they would need to get 100% of the people in that market to watch to meet the same viewers totals.
In the case of baseball stadiums hold roughly around the same numbers of people…
But there is WAY MORE people in a market like NYC to buy those tickets to sell out every game where as in a Market like St Louis they can’t sell out unless they get 10% (double what NYC draws) to get the same number of sell outs.
So in a Market like NY if you just draw the same 5% as St Louis does you have actually made more than double what they made even if the stadiums are equal in capacity.
It’s why TV Ratings are done in Shares not actual counts….
Cause in small market you could have half the population there watch a show and it’s ratings still will be lower (and worth less to advertisers) due to the fewer exposures that market brings.
Hi Mitch,
Agree that rebuilding does not mean less investment in raw talent and the minor league system and since that too fell to the axe of financial cutbacks one has to ask if re-building can even be seen as a vision as much as an excuse to divert from the fact that the owners are in a bad fiscal shape and everything takes a back seat to that.
For if during this period the Mets didn’t add to their minor league budget – but kept it a steady level – one could say rebuilding was their goal even within the confines of the economic reality that caused them to place the team in re-build mode even though many of us contend that in itself was not necessary two years back which led us to be in our position now.
No, the kids need to be supplemented by quality players from other sources. Yes, we have a good group on the field right now – Davis, Gee, Wright, Tejada, Parnell, Duda, etc. but there are still too many holes for a minor league system to make up for (not impossible but highly improbable). Because those other steps are not being put into the mix one must conclude that the kids and those we have now could give us a few years of peaking at above .500 between the years 2014 and 2016 and nothing more when those like Davis, Gee, etc. start commanding higher market value they willl become too expensive to retain as well, keeping us in a virtual rebuildng stage.
2016 and 2017 are only four and five seasons away -
This is ridiculous… I’ve only been here for a week and this is the 8th or 9th post Alex and Just have crapped all over. Move on and shut up guys, you’re ruining the discussion.
Well Matt I did like this post as it does admit this team isn;t really rebuilding…
But I’m not so sure you can say they are replenishing….
They sent away:
A Closer – Still need one
A RFer (at the time) – Got a Starting Pitcher
a SS – Got nothing really but a Catcher
a CF – Got Nothing PERIOD
Cy Young Pitcher – Got a catcher that makes the SS sendaway moot Lost a Cy Young pitcher making the trade equation on Pitchers static.
So we sent 5 players away (Right or wrong 5 performers left for whatever reasons)
And all they got out of it was a Catcher, his possible backup in 2-3 years and a Pitcher to replace the one they traded to get the catcher…
And they are down a RFer and CF after all is said and done…
Thats not really what I would call replenishing….
YOUTHANIZE maybe but replenishing hardly…When you replenish you usually wind up with more than you lost in the first place.
I do get what your trying to say but they are sending more away and getting little in return to make up for the lossed let alone replenish something we were missing as we are missing more pieces now.
They sure have saved money but until they spend it they have really added or replenished nothing
I´m betting that Wheeler + D´Arnaud + Syndergaard + heck Plawecki & Reynolds (i.e. the modest Reyes “haul”) will collectively be outproducing Reyes (33) + Dickey (42) + Pagan (35) + Beltran (37) + KRod (35) collectively by 2016 – at less than 20 % of the cost.
The decision to – finally – rebuild may have been mostly financially motivated.
Sure, had the Mets added Cliff Lee (after 2010), Jonathan Papelbon (after 2011) and BJ Upton (after 2012) as free agents while re-signing Beltran, Reyes, K-Rod, Pagan and extending Dickey, then contending with the “old” core from 2011 through 2015 would certainly have been possible. Not guaranteed – but quite possible.
I mentioned in a previous post that Alderson inherited an expensive 80 to 85 win team structurally. By adding pieces like the aforementioned ones, that team could have been upgraded towards 85 to 90 wins (and with a little luck, 85 to 90 wins can easily turn into 93 wins, just like it also can drop back to 82 wins with injuries and bad luck).
Of course, doing the math, keeping the “old guard” around and adding the aforementioned pieces would have lifted the 2011 to 2013 payrolls into the 160 to 180 million $ range. Still below luxury tax thresholds – but far away from breaking even in terms of cash flow / revenue unless a best case scenario (World Series) fulfills itself.
Besides, being something this ownership group would not have been able to do even with help from Bernie Madoff, let alone without him and facing a 1 billion $ suit and losing the franchise and their other businesses too.
So, winning with the “old core” had to be sacrificed to build a “new core” with a window that won´t open before 2014 but should last until at least 2020 once in does, maybe longer if managed in a smart way.
Hi DrD,
Yes, we all agree the changes made were financially motivated. But if we look at the situation in terms of a reasonable fiscal picture, why talk in terms of payroll as a separate entity? The roster payroll is part of the overall operating expenditures of the team and fits within a structure of an overall budget and the revenue projected from such expenditures.
According to the attached from Fox Business News, in 2011 the Mets were the fifth most expensive cost to fans in the majors, with an average $241 spent per individual.
If those three players you mentioned helped contribute to an average 4,000 more fans per game, it would increase revenue by a million dollars per game – or more than $75 million per year. Mind you, that does not account for the increased ticket cost going into 2013.
I don’t think each of those players got an average salary of $25 million per year.
That’s why I say don’t go by rotisserie league to understand payroll decisions because the roster payroll is just one facet of the overall cost to run a ball club.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/05/17/5-ballparks-ding-wallet/
In addition, the Mets certainly did not have to get the top names in Lee, Pappelbaum and Upton to put them into the potential 90 win range – that would be Yankee thinking. We just didn’t have to go to the extreme opposite with Young, Carasco and (via trade) Torres. But we would not have sacrificed our farm system signing these players so we could have indeed made the transition from older vet to younger prospect with potential as the individual need risen – that’s the way a team needs to be run to be successful for long stretches.
Of course, we both know that plans are only projections and there is no guarantee which ever direction any team makes for it to rise, be mediocre or languish near the bottom.
You have to look at those deals individually…
thats insane to use them collectively….unless u want to mask the fact that pawlecki and reynolds are probably never going to be any closer to citifield than the average fan…to even insinuate they are going to outproduce jose reyes is pure comedy….
right now, kevin pawlecki couldnt start on a team that had juan centeno or travis d’anard on it…we’re talking about a guy who was so good at defense, they sat his ass down and had him as the DH for 30% of the season…
and beltran’s 2011 + 2012 seasons were MVP caliber for the most part….
The Firms desperate attempts to make their lord and savior Sandy look better is absolutely funny