8
2013
Alderson Shoots Minaya A Zinger…
An article by 
For some strange reason I keep posting about stuff and then it’s in the news the next day (not my post, the subject).
So speaking of that 11th pick the Mets have, here’s what Sandy Alderson had to say about it courtesy of Andy McCullough of the Star-Ledger.
“We don’t want to lose our first-round draft pick,” Sandy Alderson said by phone last night, according to McCullough. “We think that’s one of the ways we got into the predicament we’ve had over the past couple of years.”
Nice swipe at Omar Minaya, by the big cheese.
Now if only he could give us four winning seasons in six, then you can color me impressed. We’ll find out this season…
But if you’re the betting type, the odds on the Mets breaking their four year losing streak are not great (disclaimer: betting online in the US is still something of a grey area)
* * * * * * *
Dave Cameron of FanGraphs had an interesting post last week in which he discussed the value of draft picks. Considering how much emphasis our front office, and many in the fan base, now place on draft picks, it certainly piqued my interest.
About half way through his extensive and well-reserached post (all of Cameron’s posts are extremely well researched) he gave an example of all the 11th overall picks in the draft since 2000. Coincidentally, that’s exactly where the Mets select in this June’s First Year Player Draft. Check out what
Just as an example, let’s take the 11th pick in the draft since the turn of the century. This is the best possible pick that can be surrendered as compensation for signing a free agent. From 2000 to 2012, those picks have been:
2000: Dave Krynzel
2001: Kenny Baugh
2002: Jeremy Hermida
2003: Michael Aubrey
2004: Neil Walker
2005: Andrew McCutchen
2006: Max Scherzer
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Justin Smoak
2009: Tyler Matzek
2010: Deck McGuire
2011: George Springer
2012: Addison RussellMcCutchen is a huge score for the Pirates, and Walker has turned out nicely for them as well, even though he took a while to become a useful player. Scherzer is another win for this slot. Addison Russell had a great debut and has prospecters excited, so he’s probably got a decent amount of trade value at the moment. George Springer might turn into something, maybe. But after that? Justin Smoak hasn’t developed as expected. Tyler Matzek is still trying to figure things out in A-ball. Phillippe Aumont might have a future as a bulpen guy. Yeah, try to contain your enthusiasm.
A one-in-ten shot at getting the next Andrew McCutchen is an asset worth having, especially if some of the consolation prizes are pretty decent too. But, let’s keep in mind that the changes to the draft rules haven’t changed the fact that teams are still drafting kids who aren’t anywhere close to the big leagues, and the path from draft pick to productive big leaguer is long and treacherous. Having draft picks is a good thing. Teams should value them. But they should know what that value is, and be willing to trade it in for an established Major League player when the price is right.
McCutchen is the only name that jumps out at you. So 1-in-13 players reached a star level of performance. There’s a chance you have 2-3 good MLB careers in there too, but…
This is why I always say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush when it comes to trading prospects. The sure thing you trade for almost always ends up having more value than what you gave up. You can’t deny that.
How did Minnesota make out with all those prospects they got from us for Johan Santana when we “so-called” gutted our system?
Am I saying draft picks and prospects are not worth having? Absolutely not. But try to place the value of those things in it’s proper perspective.
Also, try to do your due diligence with scouting before the draft, take the best sure fire player on the board, and then SIGN them… Especially a first or second round pick… (Looking at you DePo)
So if you’re holding off on signing Bourn just because it will cost you the No. 11 pick, lets get real here. Now if you think Bourn doesn’t help the Mets, that’s another story.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
127 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
Recent Comments
- Metrofan: on Mets GM Tells Ike Davis He Has Until End Of Month To Turn Slump Around: Yes please send him down. I think...
- Major Mofongo: on Mets Only Manage Three Runs Behind Marcum, Lose 4-3: Yup.... RA Dickey was a non-conformist too... RA Dickey...
- TexasGusCC: on Mets Only Manage Three Runs Behind Marcum, Lose 4-3: Metsie, I am saddened by your answer....
- Metsie: on Mets Only Manage Three Runs Behind Marcum, Lose 4-3: Because this FO places more importance on...
- Metsie: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: Hey Random here is a little test...
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5366 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
“Having draft picks is a good thing. Teams should value them. But they should know what that value is, and be willing to trade it in for an established Major League player when the price is right.”
I can understand that for sure. But keep in mind that often a player is valued very high before they flame out and thus having that #1 pick in your system as a trading chip is very valuable as well. He is right though, you got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, know when to run….. la la la
Yep, and as Alderson said today (or yesterday) prospects aren’t just guys who you project into your ML lineup, they are also trading chips.
The Mets have pretty much exhausted their ML roster of trading chips, all they have left is prospects. As to “gutting our system” to get Johan, well sometimes, as odd as it sounds, the Mets actually make what appears to be a good trade. Although with the injuries Santana has had thats still an open question.
I would do the Johan trade in a heartbeat every time considering the situation that they were in. They were a win now team and needed an ace and that was the only way to acquire one. If the Mets were in win now mode right now and had to trade top prospects for Upton or Stanton? No doubt. This team however, since 2009 has not been in that situation.
Don’t disagree with anything you said. I guess my point is prospects and draft picks, like anything else in the world, have the value that is placed on them by the market. Period. It doesn’t matter what we think its how the market values them.
Right now the Mets are bereft of proven ML talent. The only chip we really have that is worth something and going to be made available is Johan. We all know this. But they do have some very valuable pieces made up of prospects and some draft picks.
The Mets clearly aren’t in win now mode and I don’t expect them to trade away some of these chips unless they get blown away by an offer. But this is baseball and one thing for sure there will be things happening and players made available for a variety of reasons that none of us can see right now.
Yeah, I am just saying there is a time and place. Honestly, I think that following the 2013 season could be that time and place. Time to invest in FA and time to trade some players to make a run at it. I hope I am right.
Well if its any comfort I agree so if you’re wrong so am I.
But I will probably still blame you.
Don’t worry, some already are licking their chops.
TRS… THE STATEMENT SHOULD BE MORE LIKE HAVING DRAFT PICKS YOU POTENTIALLY CAN SIGN IS WHERE THE TRUE VALUE LIES. ALDERSON & TOO MANY OTHERS NEGLECT TO ACCOUNT FOR MINAYA’S BEING WILPON SHACKLED TO THE SELIG VOLUNTARY SLOT BONUS SYSTEM WHEREIN NO VIABLE AGENT WOUL;D EVER ADVISE A FUTURE CLIENT TO TAKE A NYM OFFER WHILE SO MANY OTHER CLUBS WOULD BE WILLING TO DO MUCH BETTER EVEN DRAFTING LATER.
A DRAFT POSITION IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE LIKELIHOOD OF GETTING A TOP PROSPECT’S SIGNATURE
NOW THAT SLOTTING IS LAW, NOT SUGGESTION, ALDERSON IS ON MORE EVEN PLAYING FIELD.
AHHH 62 you may have hit a nerve here with some by pointing out Slot Guidelines…
Remember when Sandy first got here and everyone was jumping for joy because they felt this guy was going to do what they wanted and offer ABOVE SLOT to get those great kids they all expected us to rebuild with?
Odd isn’t it how the year before the slot guidelines became MANDATORY how this guy who was all about OVER SLOT wouldn’t sign his 2nd rounder and even offer UNDER SLOT!
eh kind of an odd way for Cameron to evaluate the 11th pick.
If you go just 1 pick after you find Adam Everett, Brett Myers, Joe Saunders, Khalil Greene, Jered Weaver, Jay Bruce, Jemile Weeks, Aaron Crow were picked 12th. Does that mean the 12th pick is more valuable than the 11th or just that the teams picking 12th did a better job?
If the Mets are not overjoyed with the top 12 prospects in the draft and Bourn only wants a 1 or 2 year deal then I say do it. He makes them a lot better and adds a few dynamics to the team that they are lacking in speed and defense. He also makes Duda less of a liability.
It really depends on how they view the draft board
I just don’t see them doing it. Not only do they lose the pick but they lose the money associated with it.
That being said, if they could sign him to a good deal and then trade him at the ASB if out of it they could net players better than the #11 pick and more MLB ready as well.
Picks are largely about volume, and overall, the higher they are the better shot at becoming really good. Not every one, but with a big enough sample size.
Plus, the more talent you get in the system, the better shot you “hit” on some of them. So it is not that the #11 pick might bust, it is the risk of having fewer picks up high (less amrgin for error).
And the 10th pick had Storen, Bumgarner, Lincy, Maybin
And the 12th pick had Grandal, Crow, Weeks, Bruce, J. Weaver, Joe Saunders.
And the 13th pick had NIMMO!!!!, Sale, A. Hill,
And the 14th pick had Heyward and Billy Butler
From one pick to the next, it’s a gamble, for sure. But to say not much really happened in the 11th pick and then you roll to the 12th with quite a good number of picks that panned out points towards looking at a grouping of picks rather than just one pick over the years.
And yes, Bourn makes this team better now, but how long will those legs last and at what cost (combination of years, salary and a lack of a higher end pick)? Yes, arguments could be made pro and anti Bourn. If stupid Appel had signed with Pit, this wouldn’t be an issue, they could have the best of both worlds and keep their high pick and make a legit run at Bourn, who is obviously getting cheaper by the day.
Honestly, I didn’t do an overall evaluation of each year’s draft. I know Cameron to be a very intellectual and objective writer who is widely respected. I saw his article which had nothing to do with the Mets, and it sort of strengthened my own opinion on prospects who I see as suspects until they prove otherwise.
Fair point and understood.
forget the pick, i just am not high on Bourne. I think he is overrated, and primed for a decline. not someone I want to see as the “big” (and only!) FA investment for the near future.
I was initially high on the gold glove center fielder with elite speed. But after we traded Dickey and saw we were punting another season, I became less interested in Bourn. It would amount to putting lipstick on a pig. And so it is for the New York Mets.
” It would amount to putting lipstick on a pig. ”
Agreed but not only that, unless his price comes down considerably his stats aren’t as great as they first appear. As the poster said, he is a prime candidate to have a considerable decline. This is most likely one of the reasons he is still on the market.
Joe D,
The Dickey trade does not equal a punt on 2013. It may well turn out that way, but we are only in the 6th inning of the offseason, so let’s wait for the full 9 innings to be complete before we towel the season. I agree with ITVR in that Bourn is a nice player but somewhat overrated, at least by his agent. I would part with that #11 pick for a player like Bourn so long as it wasn’t a one year rental and the multi-year was affordable, but I think that a team like Texas or Seattle would pay him Victorino-type money and that is too probably too much. Anyway, the GM all but said this wasn’t an option yesterday, so the Bourn point is moot, but I agree with your premise that the #11 pick is worth forfeiting for certain players.
ok…
who do u have as a better and affordable option to play CF?
‘If stupid Appel had signed with Pit, this wouldn’t be an issue, they could have the best of both worlds and keep their high pick and make a legit run at Bourn, who is obviously getting cheaper by the day.’
This still annoys me. Not that Pit didn’t sign their pick, but that the #10 team on the protected list (which happens to be the Mets) is penalized and bumped down to 11. To me, the Pirates should have picked 9a and the Mets should have stayed at 10. Still pick in the same order, with the Pirates ahead of them, but the pick would have been protected. IMO, this was an oversight on the new rules they really should fix.
Agreed.
We did the same thing to the Marlins by not signing our second round pick. Turnabout is fair play.
See, I knew there was a plan!
Maybe…
They probably took into consideration what would happen if say 50% of the 1-10 didn’t sign their picks – there would be half the teams the following year then with protected picks if they changed the rules.
Speaking as a Met fan….still stinks.
The entire thing has to change. They are penalizing good players, this was a problem before and even more so now, for being good players. Players right below them that do not qualify for compensation are getting more money and longer deals than the players who are better.
Example Edwin Jackson 4/52 while Lose remains unsigned. Angel Pagan 4/40 while Bourn remains unsigned.
Now granted this conversation may change soon as both of those guys are Scott Boras clients and he may just be pulling his same waiting game. However, it’s clear that ALL teams are reconsidering signing FA that cost draft picks and not just the pick but the money associated with the pick in a capped system.
Phillip Humber had a couple of decent stints in the big leagues, although he’s fizzled of late, and Carlos Gomez finally had something of a break-out season last year but it wasn’t with the Twins and it came years after the Santana trade. Mulvey was a total bust. Guerra (the youngest of all the prospects) still has a shot, he is still with the Twins and could make the team later this year. At the moment I would certainly trade Gomez for Santana straight up. The author in the article below believes the Mets had the better part of the deal. I’m not so sure, Gomez was terrific down the stretch last year (19 hr, 37 SB, 72 runs .260 avg), but his defense is outstanding (5. UZR).
Mets could have the number one pick and it still wouldn’t matter because ultimately it all rides on the person charged with making the selection and not the selection spot. Look at DePodesta’s track record because that’s where the concern should be.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What about the scouts that provide him with the information? Are they the same everywhere he goes?
LMAO
well isnt Sandy Alderson’s son Bryce one of our scouts now ?
“McCutchen is the only name that jumps out at you.” I disagree: Max Sherzer is a heck of a nice find at #11, don’t you think?
forgot the link, here it is:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1099464-reexaming-the-johan-santana-trade-how-each-prospect-has-fared-since-the-deal
“So if you’re holding off on signing Bourn just because it will cost you the No. 11 pick, lets get real here. Now if you think Bourn doesn’t help the Mets, that’s another story.”
That’s the real kicker for me. We are not not signing Bourn because he won’t make this team better. We are not not signing Bourn because of fear of losing the #11 pick. We are not signing Bourn because we can’t afford him. We can’t afford him because we are lusting after a mid-market payroll of less than $100MM. We are lusting over having a less than $100MM payroll because our owners are supposedly poor and cannot invest at all into our team.
It has nothing to do with lusting. It has everything to do with reality. In reality the Mets aren’t in a position where adding a guy like Bourn THIS off-season considering performance, cost, picks, etc is beneficial. The same reason that the other 29 teams haven’t signed him either.
Spot on comment, Hank. This is all about fear of losing the pick and not about adding a great defensive centerfielder, and speed which this team desperately needs. I bet he signs for less than $10 million a year which would be a bargain.
It all depends on the situation you´re in.
Sure, out of the 11 picks one can really judge (too soon for Springer & Russell), one (McCutchen) has become a true star, two (Walker & Scherzer) have become above average major leaguers, one (Hermida) had stretches of being pretty good before flaming out early, one was a top prospect centerpiece in a trade (Smoak for Cliff Lee) before failing to get anywhere near the ceiling, while half of the prospects picked here look like busts.
However, no team in Baseball will always succeed with all of their top picks or top prospects. However, the more lottery tickets with pretty high chances / ceilings you have, the better are your odds to eventually land a McCutchen. Or at least a Justin Smoak you can turn into an All Star veteran before his flaws are exposed.
Basically, as a rule of thumb, one out of four top 20 overall picks becomes a star, another one out of those four becomes as solid major leaguer and half of the picks never make it beyond an unsuccessful cup of coffee or two.
If you have a contending team that is one or two pieces away from having a shot at a title, losing your first round pick should not stand in the way, even if you don´t sign a superstar free agent who costs compensation. However, a team that´s not a contender (at least not yet), should not lose a lottery ticket like this for a complementary player it could use but won´t put it over the top – unless a real bargain is to be made.
“However, a team that´s not a contender (at least not yet), should not lose a lottery ticket like this for a complementary player it could use but won´t put it over the top – unless a real bargain is to be made.”
I will add to the end that also if that player is an impact player that will be there for when the team plans to be a contender.
If – say – Carlos Beltran of 2004 were available right now and money weren´t a problem, it would make sense even for a team in the middle of a rebuilding like the current Mets to go after a special player like him.
However, there wasn´t a single free agent available this winter that fits this profile. So the Mets, rightfully so, have passed on signing one of the available options.
I´m pretty sure that 1st round picks won´t always be sacred cows for the front office once the team is in a position to contend. However, I doubt we´ll be seeing picks lost on 39-year-old outfielders (Moises Alou) or free agent closers (KRod & Wagner).
We may see picks being sacrificed for a frontline SP or an everyday position player with several productive years ahead. If a Bourn type player is available two years from now and a strong fit, pretty sure he´d be a perfect target.
Agreed. It’s funny but the Mets might be in a better position to sign a guy like Bourn if they had lost one or two more games. Sad the way things are constructed.
….sandy was all about keeping hairston and “changing perceptions” with a .500 season…
this is why i say, sandy is not “rebuilding” nor trying to immediately improve the club….he really is a legal/financial guy. we have no one at the wheel when it comes to baseball decisions..
Dooby and TRS,
This logic screams into the face of the David Wright signing. If you truly believe that we’re not a contender yet so we can’t sign Bourn…how do you give Wright that commitment?? How do you not move him for at least whatever talent you would get at #11?? Actually in the awful reality that is MLB 3Bs, how do you not move Wright for even more talent…and even more proven at the pro level talent than what you would lose in the #11 pick??
Also, teams build contenders by adding talent. Teams don’t just wait for talent and lottery cards to develop and then say, okay now we’re ready to add talent. You should always be in the business of adding talent. If not, you don’t re-sign Wright (at the least).
Take it even one step further Hank….
They don’t even want to sign an AVERAGE OFer using the excuse the money would be wasted yet here they are wasting what will eventualy be 20 Mil on Wright who can’t possibly win with AAAA replacement players either….
They are so worried about the 8-13 Mil they might waste on a Victorino instead of the Money they will be wasting on:
Wright (10 mil this year but jumps to 20 Mill through the next 6 or 7)
Davis (who is due a big raise in Arb)
Niese (who is making 5 Mil per and won’t have the run support to make it worth paying)
Murphy (another Arb guy due a raise)
Harvey ( wasting years of his youth and control in the name of creating a team later when he will be older and we will have LESS control)
Wheeler (see Harvey)
d’Arnaud (who will start his MLB clock sometime this year)
Soon harvey, Wheeler and d’Arnaud will get raises in Arb if they do what people keep hoping for….
We are wasting money left and WRIGHT all in the name of waiting for something to happen and for a CORE to be produced and promoted that for all intents and purposes is going to be promoted and on the MLB roster before this season ends…..
This isn’t about wasting money…This is all about collecting Kids so they can all ignore today to avoid disappointment….Never realizing that if they worried more about this season than 4 years from now there is no need to be disappointed at all! EVER!
Hank the Braves kept Chipper and gave him a 6 yr extension when they started retooling after their run of division titles ended and had a few down years until their next wave of young players starting making their way up the ladder. It’s not totally unprecedented to keep your star player while retooling. Unless you totally gut the team which the Mets didn’t do. I would’ve traded him myself but it has been done before with success. Not comparing Chipper and Wright but Wright is still a star player.
You neglect to mention that the Braves traded David Justice…who was their Rookie of the Year
they also punted on Andruw Jones…
they also traded Brian Jordan….
and please lets stop the David Wright / Chipper Jones comparisons…
the year before, he became the FIRST major-leaguer to hit .300 (.319) with 100 runs (116), 40 doubles (41), 40 homers (45), 100 RBIs (110), 100 walks (126) and 20 stolen bases (25).
That year, Jones was hitting .305 with 25 homers and 83 RBIs when he signed the extension in mid-August…in the midst of another good season for the Atlanta Braves…
David Wright has had very uneven seasons for 4 straight years now…
Comparing Wright to Chipper is like comparing Ike to Pujols
You realize that there is a NOT in the last sentence of his post, right?
What the hell are you talking about. I’m talking about 2006-2008 Braves and you’re bringing up Justice, Chippers MVP season and Brian Jordan who hadn’t been a factor as a Brave since 2001.
They resigned Chipper to a 6 year extension at around 34 yrs old and started changing the team slowly over that 3 yr stretch. And do learn how to read so you can finally keep up when you jump in with more intelligent people. I SAID CLEARLY I’M NOT COMPARING WRIGHT TO CHIPPER but Wright is a star player which he is and has at least been comparible to Chipper since 2009 despite Wright’s dropoff from 05-08 since Chipper drastically declined himself after winning the batting title in 08.
Chipper gave them 2 great years out of the last 6 year deal he signed and the Braves were still a contending team. Hence the Mets still have time to build a contender with Wright as long as Ike Kingman, Tejada and a few others hold their end of the Bargain.
And I’ll take Wright’s uneven 306/391/492 21 HR’s 93 RBI’s and 91 Runs on a lousy offensive team every year. His 2010 season would’ve trumped every Met on the 2012 squad except himself. Heck I’ll take his 2009 season from some of the other wonderful farmhands Sandy inherited.
I’m starting to love Wright’s new deal now only because it’s pissing you off to no end. LMAO.
Fonzie13 with MORE lies
“They resigned Chipper to a 6 year extension at around 34 yrs old ”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/08/17/chipper_extension_ap/
Finally announcing a deal that had been rumored for weeks, NL MVP Chipper Jones and the Atlanta Braves agreed Thursday on a six-year contract said to be worth $90 million.
Jones, 28, had been eligible to become a free agent after this season.
==================
Did Chipper retire after that 6 year 90 million dollar deal? Did they trade Chipper for prospects after 2006 when their run of division titles ended? Did they not retool their team with Chipper or was he sent packing for prospects? No he was extended twice more. 2 yrs more at 34 and at 36 he received another extension for 4 yrs one of them an option. So it’s still 6 more yrs since the age of 34 which took him to his final season at 40.
What would 2000 have to do with the point being made? The Braves were still winning division titles back in 2000 all the way until 2005. I clearly stated 2006-2008 when they were no longer the Braves that dominated the NL East yet they did not trade Chipper for prospects who would’ve brought back even more than you think Wright would’ve.
Are you starting to understand now or do I need to Damaja it down even more?
Wright needs murderers row at Yankee Stadium in perfect condition? Hilarious! I guess the Mets had murderers row in 2005 when as a 22 year old playing in his first full season in NY he put up a 308/388/523 912 OPS wth 99 runs 42 2B’s 27 HR’s 102 RBI’s.
I guess that was because of Beltrans 744 OPS 16 HR 78 RBI season that propelled Wright to that first full year.
He must’ve only put similar numbers in 2006 along with 5 walkoff hits (Including a big 2 out hit off the great Mariano) because of the lineup around him and not because of how good a hitter he is. Almost identical numbers in 05 and 06 and yet 05 only Cliff Floyd did anything worth discussing.
And I guess that even though Delgado sucked in 2007 and only Beltran came close to the season Wright had when he put up his best season 963 OPS and best on the team while Wright also put up 364/465/596 in the 2nd of of 07 and 352/432/602 in September or in 08 when he put up 330/406/588 in the 2nd half and 340/416/577 in September just as good if not better than Beltran and better than Delgado. Thank God our SS saved our seasons with his sizzzling Septembers to remember though. Oh no wait he didn’t, he sucked bean bag going into fetal position when he was needed most, making the Rey Ordonez’s of the world look like Derek Jeter.
And you may want to look at Beltrans 2nd half splits during that same span 09-12. Only in 2011 did Beltran have a good 2nd half. Even last year when surrounded by a much better lineup than Wright, Beltran was awful. Much worse than Wrights 2nd half.
Also Beltran has 6 more years in the Majors. Of course he’s more of a leader.Just like Delgado was more of a leader than Beltran when he was there. Now Wright’s the leader of the team. Beltran on a bad offensive SF team hit for a high avg had 7 HR’s in 44 games but didn’t hit a lick w/risp and only knocked in 18 runs in 44 games. When he got there they were in 1st place. They didn’t make the playoffs. Duda out produced him after the trade.
You tell me the prospects we were getting back and I’ll tell you what I’d rather have. I have already said on numerous occasions that I would’ve oved him if I couldn’t get im to agree to a 5 year gauranteed deal and options. I would not have given him 8 years but I do not act like he’s Richie Hebner the way you guys do. He’s still a top 3,4 3rd baseman in the game and since they didn’t gut the team totally they still have time to win with him. And show me how many players in the game hit consistently from Apr to Oct. People here were trying to say Pagan had a big year when he had 6 good weeks this past year. Nobody wanted to hear abou an uneven year. On August 1st Pagan had 5 HR 35 RBi’s 15 2B’s and 5 3B’s with a 707 OPS. Mostly batting 5th but he had a big year.
Weak 2nd halves or not he’s still far better than anything else on the team and it’s not even close. As a sidekick Wright was hitting 324/414/467 for an 882 OPS when he got plunked in the head on August 15th without Beltran nearly 2 months to that point. Thats a pretty damn good sidekick even with his HR dropoff and absolutely no one in the lineup. Let me know when someone else on the team now has an OPS approaching 882 in the near future. That’s 110 points higher than Ike Kingman even with his 32 HR’s last year. That’s better than any Daniel Murphy season to date.
I loved Beltran and he was the better all around player but lets stop this bullshit that Wright put up the numbers that he did because of guys like Beltran on the team. From 05-08 he put up the best numbers of any Met including Beltran. Offensively he’s every bit as good as Beltran nd even has a higher BA, OBP, SLg%, OPS and OPS+. And that’s with his numbers dropping off 3 of the last 4 yrs. Get used to it. You have him for 8 more years. Deal with it.
>Did Chipper retire after that 6 year 90 million dollar deal?
Nope, he REWORKED HIS CONTRACT, in exchange for sacrificing money they guarenteed the 2 option years….
>Did they trade Chipper for prospects after 2006 when their run of division titles ended?
Were the Braves in rebuild mode ala the Mets?
>Did they not retool their team with Chipper or was he sent packing for prospects?
>No he was extended twice more.
He was extended in 2000, in the midst of a playoff run.
He reworked his contract in 2005, in the midst of ANOTHER playoff run
He extended his contract in 2009 for 3 years.
>2 yrs more at 34
that was part of the ORIGINAL CONTRACT,
nice try
>and at 36 he received another extension for 4 yrs one of them an option.
it was a 3 year deal, and the last year was never guarenteed…hence why u didnt call his first contract an 8 year contract…it was a 6 year contract with 2 option years…
>so it’s still 6 more yrs since the age of 34 which took him to his final season at 40.
No, it was technically a 6 year contract that got reworked into being a 8 year contract and then proceeded by a 3 year contract with a 1 year option that never came about b/c Chipper retired
You were still caught bull-shi**ing
Chipper never signed a 6 year extension at the age of 34
he signed a 3 year extension at the age of 36
“And I’ll take Wright’s uneven 306/391/492 21 HR’s 93 RBI’s and 91 Runs on a lousy offensive team every year. ”
Except Wright has had 4 straight uneven years….do u want to look at his 2nd half splits for those years
and im sure u would rather have Wright on an offensively ( and even moreso…DEFENSIVELY ) challenged club, than the prospects you could get for him that would plug up those holes…
>>His 2010 season would’ve trumped every Met on the 2012 squad except himself.
You mean the offensively challenged Mets ?
Simply signing the 2011 clubhouse leader Carlos Beltran in the off-season would’ve provided all the offense David provided and ( real ) leadership David Wright lacks.
>>Heck I’ll take his 2009 season from some of the other wonderful farmhands Sandy inherited.
No, I would rather have Ike Davis….David started off the 2009 campaign correctly….becoming a line-drive hitter and sacrificing power…then when Beltran went down, David became exposed for being the side-kick that he is…
Beltran on a offensively challenged SF lineup does just fine…
Wright needs to hit with Murderer’s Row at Yankee Stadium in perfect conditions or else
“McCutchen is the only name that jumps out at you”
The guy who had the highest SO/9 in the league (Scherzer) doesn’t jump out at you too?
*raises eyebrow*
They’ll take a slap-hitter with a good on base percentage.
How much would we have to pay the Braves to make this pick for us? Then we might actually get a good player.
LOL, good question.
that is not even funny, it is so depressing. I happened to look at the 2007 draft recently (during a discussion about Stanton, who was actually only ~75 that year, so pretty much every team fanned on that one).
In the first 2 rounds, Braves took Freeman and heyward. mets took Kunz, rustich, Vineyard and Movial.
‘In the first 2 rounds, Braves took Freeman and heyward. mets took Kunz, rustich, Vineyard and Movial.’
Ugh, this one really stings.
It was Stanton, Moviel and Freeman in that order. Moviel is out of baseball I believe. We didn’t get a “Thanks Omar” for that one did we? lol
Considering that the mets were coming off another record breaking year in attendance…even after payroll was steady at 104 million…their penchant for not going overslot and taking the sure college kids was still in place.
You can thank Fred and Jeff for that
In 2008, Omar drafted Ike Davis…by 2010, Ike was hitting 28 HR against MLB pitching
In 2010, Omar drafted Matt Harvey, by 2012, Matt is already talked about as a potential ace
so…u can thank him for that…
Or we can thank Steve Phillips for hiring the scouts that brought in Matt Harvey, Parnell, Josh Edgin, Niese, Ike and Duda,among others. If it wasn’t for Phillips hiring those scouts Omar would have nothing except Gee, Murphy, Thole, Nieuwenhuis and Tejada to hang his hat on.
And th we can thank the scouts Bill R hired in Oakland to produce Sandy’s only WS win….
Name the scouts Rigney hired and I’ll thank him.
All of the ones who found the players they won the WS with of course….
Have fun writing them each a personal Thank you and to Steve Phillips and his lot as well….
so u acknowledge that the GM doesnt exactly hire everyone under him….except with the mets…
with the mets, steve phillips hired the scout…not omar minaya…even though thats not what u concede wiith bill r
u flip sides more than john kerry and mitt romney in a debate lmao
FONZE, IF MY MEMORY SERVES, I SEEM TO RECALL OVERHAULING THE NYM SCOUTING & MEDICAL DEPTS WERE 2 OF OMAR’S INITIAL ACTIONS AFTER HIS HIRING.
It always comes back to what do you have on the farm. If the Mets were loaded with talent that the AAA and AA level that was major league worthy, then the situation would be totally different. Prospects have tremendous value, they always have. Sure, one can point to the deals like Johan where the prospects didnt pan out. But, how about the reverse: Cleveland dumping Colon for a few prospects (Lee, Phillips, Sizemore). Or the Tigers unloading Granderson. Or even a Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz.
Another thing to keep in mind, where do you think guys like Cano, Votto, Sabathia and McCutchen came from other than their own original teams minor league system? It is very important to get as much talent in the minors and move it through towards the major league. Some will help out the major league club while other pieces will be moved. However, one of the biggest problems facing the NYMets now (and the last few years) other than money is an incredible lack of talent within the organization that has any trade value whatsoever.
Will this years 11th pick become a major league player? Nobody knows. There is a 50/50 chance of something decent, or a total bust. Yet, adding another player to the system does not hurt. This player along with the other 30 or 35 picks signed plus the international signings might result in some more upper end minor league talent in a few years which a GM can move to fill immediate needs. That is the value of prospects and drafts. Play the numbers to win.
Bingo.
oh wait,
^^^^^^^^^^^^
this
This is why I say loosing wholesale does more to get you the prospects that will make you a winner than trading known stars for kids does….
I don’t know (or Care) how the rest of the league values what we pick….
At this point I wil settle for the FO to at least value the pick they make based on thier research enough to pay him slot!
Otherwise it doesn’t matter how much anyone likes him because we won’t have him either way!
It is a nice swipe at Omar, but it’s a correct statement none the less.
I don’t see it as that much of a swipe. The Mets didn’t play the game very well. If you are going to sign guys that require compensation then in return you have to get picks back for your former players. That’s what the Yankees always do.
I’m beginning to get my head around Sandy’s plan.
If we finish last this year we get the number one pick next year.
If we finish last in 2014, we get the number one pick the following year.
And if we finish last in 2015 we get the number one pick in 2016.
And on and on.
Think of all those trade chips we have for the future!
I know I’m exaggerating but it’s this same Sandy mentality that has some fans applauding the trade of Dicky, Beltran and others.
Yes, if you take a good major leaguer and trade him you can get a cheap prospect back.
The same as – if you come in last you will get the best prospect in the nation.
This talk about the future ended with Sandy not even offering Reyes a contract.
It’s all about money my friends – not about putting a championship team on the field or, for that matter, building for the future.
Worked for the Nats and Rays…
Not really….
The Nats and Rays didn’t take a 3rd place in the division team and turn it into a cellar dweller by trading off anyone worth a maybe to get the picks like Sandy is….
And the Nats have spent money before those kids had played a full season.
What I don’t get about you BUILD WITH KIDs types is that you never seem to acknowledge that with all the losing you had to suffer through to rebuild, all you ever get out of it is a ONE and DONE team or a few playoffs that you could have just as easily gotten by spending on some decent talent every year….
You think rebuilding means long term competitivness and the only teams you can cite as examples of it spent plenty to maintain it and never had more then 3 or 4 kids you can cite as CORE…
Meanwhile we have 5-7 guys who could be considered core, will be promoted and on the MLB roster before the year is out and you STILL want to wait for something else (wasting years of thier time here) to happen before you build around them….
Your chasing your tail son!
I was making a correlation between those clubs and the number of high end picks that they had for quite some time. Nothing more. Ease back off the eggnog this early in the evening.
4 out of 6 winning seasons – Is that a joke? How about one playoff appearance in 6 years? What a loser mentality. World Championship is the only goal that matters.
This is a subject where two groups of people will fight to the death over the side they pick. Jessop’s take on it was perfect. You can’t just take one slot and say it is a crap shoot; the entire draft is a crap shoot. Albert Pujols was a fifth rounder, Piazza was way up there; you just don’t know. But that doesn’t mean they’re not valuable.
Omar’s mets didn’t pinch pennies, while Sandy’s don’t have a choice. Even the Yanks guard their picks now. Tampa Bay has built their winners entirely through drafts the past ten years.
But, sure, whatever argument you can make to show disdain for the FO, go right ahead and make it.
I don’t even see that comment as a back handed slap on Omar. Omar wasn’t told to hord picks, he was given the cash to bring in talent. It’s just a different situation.
I’ll tell you what though, in a year or two, this Mets team will be better suited to win year after year, then Omar’s team.
Sandy has a choice and has 2500 Million Pennies he is sitting on and PINCHING that the Wilpons have given him!
To Deny this is just refusal to see the truth and cast blame on the TRUE REASON why this team is nt spending money!
Not because it isn’t there but because it’s there and Sandy can’t find anyone to spend it on and we all know it’s not because there is NO ONE to spend it on as there were PLENTY available this year who not only could we afford with 25 Mil to spend there would have been change left to use on the bullpen after we got them!
You said today:1/8/13
“But, sure, whatever argument you can make to show disdain for the FO, go right ahead and make it.”
:You said yesterday:1/7/13
“Joe, your hatred of Alderson is completely transparent.”
Joe D replied January 7, 2013 at 1:00 pm
I don’t hate Alderson or anybody else on this planet for that matter, so please take that word out of your vocabulary when addressing me…………………………I have my own personal reasons and one day I may share them when I am ready to.
HOTSTEAK says on 1/8/13
Joe is saying a vendetta does not mean hate.
Once you know the author and his agenda take it for what its worh.
To be fair and balance Joe D. wrote a masterful piece how the front office was bad mouthing Dickey so the fans would NOT miss CY Young winner. That was accurate reporting.
Thank you Hotsteak. People need to be more tolerant of differing opinions.
I found a site that Truthsaboutmurphy will like. It’s my peace offering to him.
http://bayareamets.blogspot.com/2013/01/i-believe-in-sandy.html
I had a similar conversation with Jessep once. Would you rather have 6 winning seasons with 1 playoff appearance and no W.S. ring or 1 W.S. ring in 6 seasons where the other 5 are losing seasons?
For me I try to keep my eyes on the prize and that is the ring or dare I say rings. Up to today all the past GM’s since Cashen have failed at building a team that won a ring. Alderson is the 1st GM from outside the organization to come in and try to do do what the past GM’s could not. I forgot who I said this to but sometimes it is not just a steady climb record wise in trying to win a ring. Sometimes it may take 2 steps back before you can then move forward. It is one of the reasons I personally have taken the more patient approach I have but even that has it’s limits. The FO has tied their fate with the idea that allowing the kids to develop while trying to grow and develop the farm from the ground up will prove successful. Time is fast approaching on if this will prove to be the case.
I didn’t hit the proper reply button but my above comment was intended for ray.
Of course you know my answer to that and probably every other Mets fan would answer the same.
The thing is we have to stop dishing out accolades until Alderson wins something… anything… a .500 season…. a division title…. Give us something before we keep saying things are better.
Where is the evidence that things are better? In Coney Island? In Kingsport? Not good enough!
There is an irrational exuberance here that is founded on the same imaginary things as in 2005.
Here is my new phrase…
Where is the Evidence Backed Enthusiasm?
Show it to me.
And please don’t point at the farm and say we have prospects. We’ve always had those.
How many heartbreaks must one incur until you hold off on the enthusiasm until you see some evidence in the standings that things are better?
Everybody loved Omar in his first two years too. Look how that ended up.
WHERES THE BEEF! LOL
Ipersonally would rather see 5 playoff apperances where we fell short of winning a WS than one WS and losing seasons around it….
Because for one at least I know if I buy season tickets I will see more Met Wins than Losses and truth is whatever the end outcome THATS why I go to see a abaseball game, to see my team WIN!
And because if we are in the Playoffs this year then we are not all that far away from going to or winning a World series if we go and get the piece we need to make it happen.
In the end it’s an entertainment business and I want to be entertained whenever I put my money up to see them…
I’ll be fine if they lose now and then because not every movie is a hit either….
Can’t win them all….
But I certainly don’t care that the wins I got to go to did not win a WS in the end just as I dotn’t enjoy a Movie more if it wins an Academy Award 3 months later!
I want them to entertain me for the summmer and I like to be entertained outdoors in a friendly stadium where I can have a few dogs and a few beers, see my favorite team win the game or make it a good one even if they lose and feel I got my money’s worth.
I won’t get getting a WS ring to wear myself, I won’t enjoy the game I saw in July anymore than I did because they win something in October so I don’t see how I prefer one world series and 5 summers of suck over 5 good seasons and so what I couldbn’t buy a WS ticket those years….
Straight up dude! You have some dudes other sites planning ticker tape parades and shit. Hell we ain’t signed one mlb player yet and people are happy and shit.
Agreed, that is why personally I don’t dish out accolades. I try and look at moves on an individual basis as they come and see if I agree with them accordingly. I don’t know if what the FO is doing will prove successful all I have ever done was allow time to see how the process plays out. Again personally I like the possibility of what the nucleus being tried to put together may achieve but having gone through generation k i know to be reserved in my optimism as well. Still that doesn’t take away from what we have had to endure the last 4 seasons so I can fully understand fans frustrations with not seeing results so far. I totally respect that frustration as I told Dan Valis I believe when he did a great job of articulating his frustration.
If the Mets win a W.S. say in 2015 I would look back on all this and say it was worth it but it has always been for me about rings not just having a winning record and it is one of the reasons why I am waiting to see if this process bears out being worth it.
We are basically agreeing.
I just don’t get this irrational enthusiasm.
Is it any different now than in 1997 or 2005?
You wrote this:
Again personally I like the possibility of what the nucleus being tried to put together may achieve but having gone through generation k i know to be reserved in my optimism as well.
What were your same thoughts on the possibility of having two 22-year olds in Wright and Reyes, bringing in a 28 year old Beltran, and a 19 year old prospect on the way ranked #11 by Baseball America named Lastings Milledge?
It’s always the same. We love to be hopeful as Mets fans. But there has to be some delineation between hope and results.
We haven’t crossed a line yet that things are better. We don’t even know where the line is because it keeps moving.
I’m just saying chill out and hold Alderson responsible for his actions as they happen not five years from now when it all goes to pot. If you don’t trust a particular move dont grin and bear it, get it out there, let people know. That”s what I try to do as a blogger and a passionate Met fan.
I’m tired of waving pompoms for nothing.
Lets see some accountability.
“I just don’t get this irrational enthusiasm.”
It’s therapy and nothing more….
Kind of like saying “They are in a better place” when someone you love dies and makes you sad….
It makes you feel like it’s all ok or going to be….
Nothing more than that!
Personally I would rather take a valium to calm down and just deal with the truth than run and hide from it cause at least when the Valium wears off I could find a solution to my problem as opposed to not admitting there is a problem at all…and just living with the lie.
I haven’t commented in a while, but I here frequently throughout the day and read all your posts.
First, I am enjoying the debate on your threads the last few days. They are great to read and the differing views give me some great context and perspective.
You seem to be so different than most other writers from the other sites I frequent. I just want to say that I enjoy that and find it refreshing.
You remind me of a professor at Rutgers who used to tell us to dare to be different. You certainly do that and you also get a lot of flack for it.
If it wasn’t for you, everything would be vanilla. That’s why I love this site and have been a devoted reader since I dont even remember when. But it’s at least 5 years. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Alex. Problem though, vanilla is my favorite flavor of ice cream or shakes.
I like some of the young arms and players I see but that doesn’t mean we are on our way to winning a ring as well but there is no way I can turn off the hope of this being a possibility until i see otherwise as well.
I keep saying I but I am guessing you are speaking about people in general but in any event I don’t think people should wave pom poms if by pom poms you mean the equivalent of saying Alderson has the Mets on their way to winning a W.S. That is something that remains to be seen.
Back in 2006 with a team that had a young Wright & Reyes I thought the Mets were going to go to the W.S. turns out it never happened. Right now there is a young nucleus that with the right combination some luck and surrounding future moves may prove to get the Mets that long desired ring. That is how I look at it but there is just as good a chance that they may all bust as well. The FO in my opinion has tied their fate that this is the right course if it fails then they will be most likely forced out sooner rather than later.
Time will tell.
Very simple DO NOT JUDGE. It is to soon.
It is too early to say he is a savior (except for the Wilpons ownership) or a bum.
You might say give him enough string to hang himself. Fair enough. However now that his mission to save the Wilpons ownership or Phase 1 is completed, Phase 2 is rebuilding Phase 3 is being competitive and Phase 4 is a championship.
I NOW agree with Metsie and Joey D that Phase 2 and Phase 3 or rebuilding and making the team competitive can be blended so that rebuilding is done incrementally through all phases a strong farm and competitive team like the Braves. What a lot of anti-Alderson people forget is the Picard lawsuit was just a year ago. So I say give Alserson a little slack in that rope you are ready to hang him with. Did Alderson make mistakes? “You bet he did” : Did he do some good: “You bet he did”. However the clock is running and another less than .500 record while not fatal if prospects show results it will be duly noted in evaluating him.
Yes Joe D. he (Alderson) has not done anything yet at the ML level as far as the record goes. We shall see this season where this franchise stands as far as record and the development of its highly touted prospects.
Hotstreak, maybe if we all focused our attention on our dislike of present ownership, we would all get along.
There is only one Mets fan/blogger in the whole wide world who actually loves the Wilpons that I know, and I know hundreds of Met fans and bloggers.
Can you please direct me to this person.
Sure, it’s @gregpomes on Twitter. A former writer who has become one of the most incredibly out of touch and negative Mets fan in the universe.
Oh trust me I know who that dude is, he is the one that loves the Wilpon’s? Why am I surprised. His tweets are high comedy.
I cant handle the guy anymore and I’m just thinking of blocking him on twitter. I had it out with him last Friday over the most insane things he was saying. I should know better and just ignore him, but how do you ignore “Jeter is a thousand times better than Ted Williams” or when I was talking to someone else about Justin Upton he jumps in and says “You know Alderson, trading white players for an African American player that can help this team win is wrong.” I couldn’t believe he tweeted that. I also cant believe Jon Heyman not only follows this guy, but actually converses with him.
Oh Jeez… I don’t follow him but the gems generally make the rounds. That’s out of control.
Speaking of Twitter, I sent you a link to a great Article by Nate Silver regarding HOF voting, check it out.
Oh boy….
Don’t know how anyone can take his baseball acumen seriously when he spent years trying to convince Met fans Beltran was a bum and not worth the money.
Joe D.
Thank you. I really appreciate your reply and yes it is ultimately ownerships fault.
I’m not sure if that is the question we spoke about. Put it to you like this though. I think any team that GETS to the playoffs should consider the season a success. The playoffs are a crapshoot and to be one of the top 4 (or 5) teams thru 162 games to me is more impressive than winning 11 games.
I think if your team wins 81+ games consistently then you are a lucky fan. But I will say this without a doubt: playoffs are the ultimate goal.
Orgasm is the ultimate goal too…
But it’s an empty goal if you were not enjoying most of what it took to get you there….
I believe it was about the braves and the preference of making the postseason often without winning a ring or winning a ring without making the postseason often. I believe we both had opposing views.
Right. I would prefer to have the Braves history from 1991-2005 than the Marlins history despite they have 1 more WS than Atlanta. Because I feel as a fan, you should be lucky in today’s game to see a championship. To even have a chance year after year like you did as a Braves fan, that’s special.
Yes, I believe that was the topic.
Jessup,
I cant believe you said the playoffs are the ULTIMATE GOAL. especially now when better than a third of the teams get in. No wonder mets fans are considered losers by skankee fans. They go to the playoffs and get knocked out and thier fans call up the fan screaming for heads.
The mets brass is all ass, cause they don’t want to win, let’s face it for us mets fans in a shell, they want the yankees to rule new york, they are afraid of taking over where the yankees have been for the last twenty years a winner a contender, a real championship team, real players who want to win, as for the mets brass, they don’t want that for us. they want all the money that’s it. they make the mistakes with madolf and we have to pay for it being a second rated team in new york behind the yankees. Thanks you stuipd jerks, thanks alot for that, now tell me if i’m lying, cause sandy and the mets brass make up excuses for alot of things and now that we do have some go out their and gets a us a damn player, sign broune who cares about the dumb pick, finally show that you have hair on your tennis balls and makes us happy.
how exactly does wanting more money coincide with purposely not wanting to be good or win? You don’t think they know the only thing that is really going to get them that jackpot is putting a winning team back on the field?
What players were chosen in those draft slots we forfeited due to F/A signings? How many were good? How many fizzled?
Just to add to what I mean. Another Mets blogger was inspired by this post and sent me a link to his own post, a rebuttal, entitled:
I Believe In Sandy
Here are some excerpts:
He traded Dickey, which although removed hopes for 2013, helped fortify the 2014 team into a contender.
What the Mets are starting to build around is incredible. Neise, Tejada, Harvey, Wright, d’Aunaud, Davis, Wheeler.
I am excited for the beginning of the dynasty that Sandy is building.
You see what I mean?
Contender in 2014?
Dynasty building?
That’s incredible?
Maybe I’m getting too cranky….
Please go read it here because he’s a decent guy and a friend of the site.
http://bayareamets.blogspot.com/2013/01/i-believe-in-sandy.html
LoL, you may be a bit cranky at times
but this is way over the top as well. I see extremes both ways everyday that is just how it is.
I DMed him that if he had left that post as a comment here, he would be good for at least a dozen comments that say… This!
I can imagine his reply was “This” what? LoL
Maybe I’m not seeing the sarcasm but you guys do know that srt didn’t invent this right? Lol it’s extremely common all over the Internet.
If you’re screwing around than never mind.
This.
I’ve been using it for years as I’ve seen it all over for years.
Hi Joe, this was me, and while I don’t expect the Mets to really be in contention in 2014 and they are far far away from a dynasty, I do think that they are making progress.
And while it may not necessary be incredible just yet. If you have three or four of these guys turn out great, then you have a good STARTING Block. And I actually strongly support signing Bourn..
I think that although that 1 in 13 chance of having a Mccutchen is great, the Mets need to start signing some guys so we don’t lose our impatient fans and also so we can contend in 2014 and beyond. The Mets need a real outfield before they can do anything. And I was simply stating that I do think the Mets are on the right track
JOE,
I am not waving pom poms for SA. I try to be optimistic about my team and I will give the current FO the benefit of the doubt for now until they prove me wrong. In 06 I was on the Omar bandwagon too believe it or not. What I take exception to is lauding a GM who gave us 4 winning seasons out of 6. Thats no big deal. Hell at least the Dbacks make the playoffs every few years. The mets have been in the playoffs 1 time since 2000. Thats a disgrace in my opinion and Omar was the GM on watch the longest in that time.
I dont like the yankees very much but I agree with thier philosophy of win it all or else its failure. nobody is going to remember a third place team. I guess you can put me in the class of 5 losing seasons to have one where you get the ring. A good example would be the marlins. Since 1997 they have 2 rings and have mostly sucked the other years. I would take that over the mets performance over that time.
If you believe with the Yankees philosophy you are rooting for the wrong team bud.
Alderson has never won anything on a shoestring payroll, let alone a dynasty. When he was rolling in dough was the only time he won. You dont need hope, you need a shrink.
This was supposed to be in reply to the comment from Joe D. that has the I believe in Sandy blog.
max. no it was about joe saying alderson should shut up about minaya until he accomplishes the 4 wins in 6 seasons omar did. why dont you go back and read the post? Now to your insults, I guess Its nuts to want your team to win the world series, I am rooting for the wrong team because I think a championship should always be the goal.
Your idiotic quotes speak for themselves- no need to answer.
I didn’t insult you. You said you wanted the Mets to have a Yankees philosophy and I said you are rooting for the wrong team because the Mets do not have a $200 million payroll only $80 million. How is that an insult? You are a hot head. Cool off a little. If you want the Mets to win a World Series than hope we get a GM who could win with a $80 million payroll because we dont have one like that right now.
Maxx, Sorry but when somebody tells me I need a headshrinker I get a little upset.
Are winning seasons all we’re after now?? I thought the playoffs was the goal. It’s certainly mine. In which case it’s one out of six.
If Alderson has four out of six winning seasons but only makes the playoffs once he’ll be deemed a failure. There will be a lot of told ya so’s.
But Minaya did it and he is the man?
Sorry, winning seasons aren’t good enough. I want several playoff seasons in a row, and with the way Alderson is doing it, it is a lot more likely.
it all depends…
for some folks a WS ring is the only definition of a winning season
For some it may be the standardhey hold them to….
But usually those who do were not born in time to witness when they did win them…
I’ve seen two and I can say from experience…as good as they were at the time….They did NOT make up for all the crappy seasons we sat through to get them….
If they put the best team they can out there every year I won’t expect them to win every year and would expect if they do that they will win a WS more often and see the playoffs more frequently….
This is the third time we are trying this start from scratch because it will lead to a long dominant team which has been proved not to actually happen when you rebuild all that happens is you trade awy the good guys who got you there because they all want to get paid after winning it for you and you decide to rebuild again because they all aren’t worth the money (so they say)
Well then I guess he is already a failure as he has already given up on a season he need to ghave to get to 4 playoffs in 6 seasons…. hasn’t he?
Best he can do is get 3 playoffs season out of 6 and guess what….
He won’t even GET to season 6 he will be fired if not by next offseason midway though the 2014 season when they STILL have no outfield and bullpen to speak of….
It all depends on the circumstances you are in.
Is it worth “giving up” an early to mid 1st round pick in exchange for a free agent ?
Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.
If you´re getting a “star” caliber player, say, Carlos Beltran of 2004/2005 at age 27 in his prime, obviously a draft pick, i.e. essentially a lottery ticket should not stand in the way. No matter where your team currently stands.
Now, giving up an early pick for a veteran complementary player such as Michael Bourn, coming off a career year usually doesn´t make a lot of sense. Especially if you´re not in the middle of a contention window and can very much use the shortterm gain like the 2013 Mets.
And yes, the attrition rate among draft picks is quite high, certainly well over 50 % for 1st rounders. However, if you strike with a couple of them, it can be a tremendous boost for your team longterm, so it´s always a risk assessment which also includes where your team stands.
Also, over the past decade, prospect evaluation has also made significant progress. There´s still a high failure rate – but it´s less than in the late 1990s or early 00s for example.
Let´s take a look at the 2002 through 2011 drafts and which players got picked 10th, 11th and 12th overall, i.e. in the range of the upcoming Mets pick:
2002: Drew Meyer – Jeremy Hermida – Joe Saunders: One bust, two solid average major leaguers; but look at 15-16-17 overall that year: Scott Kazmir – Nick Swisher – Cole Hamels, i.e. three high-impact players / stars
2003: Ian Stewart – Michael Aubrey – Lastings Milledge: A pretty bad return in a pretty shallow overall draft
2004: Thomas Diamond – Neil Walker – Jered Weaver: One star, one above average player, one bust
2005: Cam Maybin – Andrew McCutchen – Jay Bruce: One superstar, one borderline star and one fringe average player who was the centerpiece in the Miguel Cabrera trade as a top prospect
2006: Tim Lincecum – Max Scherzer – Casey Kiker: One star, one above average SP, one bust
2007: Madison Bumgarner – Phillipp Aumont – Matt Dominguez: One star and two middling borderline prospects; # 14 overall was star outfielder Jason Heyward by the way
2008: Jason Castro – Justin Smoak – Jemile Weeks: A couple of average major leaguers and a fringe major leaguer who was the centerpiece in a trade for Cliff Lee though; Brett Lawrie was # 16, Ike Davis # 18 overall in that draft btw
2009: Drew Storen – Tyler Matzek – Aaron Crow: Two fine relievers and a likely bust
2010: Michael Choice – Deck McGuire – Yasmani Grandal: Still a bit soon to fully evaluate these three, especially Grandal after his PED suspension after a very promising rookie debut. McGuire was a supposedly a “safe” college pick, just like # 13 overall, LHP Chris Sale who has become a star
2011: Cory Spangenberg – George Springer – Taylor Jungman: Three supposedly “safe” college picks, none of which has truly broken out.
Also, note that a lot of stars mentioned above were picks out of High School:
Kazmir – Hamels – McCutchen – Bruce – Bumgarner – Heyward – to a lesser degree Lawrie, Walker or Maybin too.
Sure, the were also college successes such as Swisher – Weaver – Lincecum – Weeks – Storen – Crow; but it´s not as if these college picks have been a lot more successful compared to their HS peers.
Also, the question for a rebuilding team has to be: Is adding Michael Bourn worth losing out on the chance for the next Madison Bumgarner or Andrew McCutchen or the chance for the next Neil Walker or Jemile weeks or even the next Justin Smoak or Cameron Maybin, both of which were traded for elite players ?
In the Mets´ current situation, the answer clearly is no – unless Bourn is willing to sign a medium term deal for a stunningly low amount of money. And why would he ? A shortterm deal would make absolutely no sense – with any contending window probably not opening before 2014 anyway. And even then, it´d be highly questionable.
And the value of 1st round picks has actually increased today vs. past years. In the past, you could lose your 1st rounder but still get 1st round talents in later rounds by paying well over slot. If you lose your 1st rounder now, your draft budget crashes as well and you don´t have the option of spending aggressively on your other picks anymore with a small budget.
So, all in all, as much as having to remain patient is difficult, especially with no guarantee it´ll lead to a contender as early as in 2014 or the following years, in this case, keeping your 1st rounder is a must.
Oh and on a final note, it´s tough to blame Minaya on some of these moves. His task – unlike Alderson´s was to build an instant / quick fix winner. Which he did by spending wildly on free agents and losing several early picks in the process. Certainly the signings of Carlos Beltran and Pedro Martinez, plus probably Billy Wagner were absolutely worth it, considering the shortterm task at hand. However, also sacrificing early picks for especially Moises Alou & to a lesser degree Francisco Rodriguez and maybe even Jason Bay (only a 2nd rounder) seemed questionable back then and certainly in retrospect.