Yup, we will always be disagreeing on this until perhaps the true story comes out one night on a 60 minutes interview with both parties involved. LOL.

But my point cannot be dismissed as purely hypothetical based on some loose end dots. My opinion is formulated from not dismissing a wealth of facts that we do know to be accurate and not open for dispute – the Mets financial situation, Sandy Alderson’s background and methodology, the actions taken so far, the avoidance of any formal talks in which a biding offer – one that actually commits the Mets to something if accepted (even if it is just the opening bid), the double-talk in which Sandy has been caught being guilty of by his own words contradicting those made earlier, the lack of signing anybody other David Wright to a long-term contract, the stated goal to reduce payroll, and – this is most important to remember – THE FACT THAT THE MONEY HE DIDN’T USE FOR JOSE REYES WAS NOT USED TO OBTAIN ANYBODY ELSE.

This is a pattern that cannot be dismissed by suspecting how he was dealing with Jose was based on a sincere attempt to re-sign but to play hardball on behalf of the club’s best interests. Contesting he still had time in October that is why he didn’t open serious negotiations when he had exclusive negotiating rights is again only guesswork – but I can consider that more seriously if you can provide valid documentation that shows other general managers who eventually re-signed their players took the same steps Sandy did – that after their player opted for free agency they did not begin serious talks during the time they had exclusive rights.

Note, I am not stipulating that the player eventually did re-sign with the club or was only interested in the biggest contract no matter whom it came from – I am only asking to be shown that how Sandy approached Jose during those two months leading up to the two or three days before formal discussions with Jose’s agent began (Sandy was the one who used the word “informal” to describe the few prior telephone conversations he had) and knowing that the player involved was already fielding offers from other teams. If there have been precedents, then I would agree that what you state not being hypothetical but based on the ways these types of situations have been handled in the past.

Then you would have a very valid point and it could be a matter of Sandy being outfoxed instead of not being serious. It won’t provide evidence of Jose’s true intentions but it would help immensely to get Sandy off the hook somewhat.

At the end of June, Jose said he no longer wanted to negotiate until after the season so not to be distracted. Of course, that was a hardball ploy – he was having his greatest season ever and thus could raise his market value – everyone knows that. If he was batting .230 boy would he love to have then sat down with Sandy and make a deal. That was his playing hardball too.

1) Reyes was VERY different than Beltran, K-Rod and Pagan because he was a homegrown star and a favorite of Mets fans. Believe me, they know whose jerseys sell the most! So Reyes and Wright were more alike in the sense both were homegrown all-star players who were loved by the fan base.

2) Your evidence on Sandy is a lot more speculative and connect-the-dots type of evidence than the statements of Samson, Francessa, and Jose’s own agent. Those statements go directly toward what Jose’s expectations and wishes were regarding free agency and a new contract.

At any rate, we shall agree to disagree.

No, I am not speculating when it comes to Reyes – I am saying there is not enough out there to come to a reasonably valid decision. If one wants, I could quote many third party statements too but I believe that would weaken my own argument because third party statements without back up are just hearsay.

But there is ample evidence based on Sandy himself as I said through his own actions – not even including Reyes – to suggest he wanted to truly re-sign his shortstop. Too much of a predictable pattern when it comes to not wanting to spend money – just as much as many say was with Omar regarding his not wanting to not stop spending money. To point out Wright as the rule and not the exception means to also point out Reyes, Beltran, KRod and Pagan are the exceptions and not the rule?

Again, I’m not saying Reyes was any more sincere than Sandy based on hypotheticals but it can’t be claimed that Sandy was indeed more sincere than what it was suggested Jose was based on hypotheticals, either.

1) The comments by Francessa regarding Reyes stating he was looking for Crawford money

2) The comments by Samson saying that Reyes was looking to make the last dollar. That as long as they were offering one dollar more, that’s where Reyes would go.

3) The comments by Reyes agent inferring they were expecting more than the 106 million they got from Miami, but that Reyes’ injury depressed his value.

All these comments are consistent with each other, along with the fact that Reyes refused to negotiate mid-season, to paint a picture that money was that money was the overriding consideration for Reyes, that he originally was seeking Crawford money, and that absent a contract offer that was close to “Crawford money” he was was going to test free agency to see if he could get what he wanted.

What you are doing is speculating. But the 100 MILLION package that Sandy had talked over with Greenberg is FACT and says more than anything that the Mets were serious,

I am not denigrating Reyes by saying money was his #1 consideration. There are a lot of players like that. I actually think most players may be like this. I was just hoping that he would give the Mets a home town discount. He was not inclined even a little bit to do so.

Here is an undeniable fact that supports the idea that Sandy was serious about signing Reyes — he came to an understanding with Greenberg on a package that was worth up to 100 MILLION dollars. It was likely 6 years, with the 6th year being an option year. So it was a guaranteed 16.6 million a year for 5 years. That’s big money, even if it was less than Miami’s offer All Greenberg had to do was pick up the phone and say YES and Reyes would be a Met today.

You can throw out all the circumstantial information you want, but the very fact that the Mets had presented an informal offer to Greenberg worth up to 100 MILLION shows that Sandy was serious. Sandy just had an upper limit to what he would offer, and crazy Loria came in and raised Miami’s offer from their initial lowball offer and trumped that. Simple as that. But to say Sandy wasn’t serious, well there is no support for that.

Nobody is questioning that both parties were looking after their own self interests first – Jose, with trying to get a lot of money and with Sandy trying to save it. If you can find statements by Jose to indicate he was only interested in the top offer and nothing more – or list actions taken by him to show a pattern (other than not wanting to negotiate when into the middle of the season), please let us know. Statements made by third parties always need to be further vetted.

I am not trying to prove that Jose WASN’T going to go to the highest bidder and didn’t care who it was and WOULD sign with the Mets if they offered something less than somebody else – there is no evidence to prove this.

Again, other than playing hardball with each other, the actions – which goes above the BS given by both sides – leans to Sandy not being serious. This is due to the observation of his behavior other than for David Wright (in which he did “bid against himself” for there were public relations considerations to re-sign him, just as there was bad PR to consider if trading Reyes during the middle of 2011). Those are:

1) the Mets losing money
2) the path he has taken with all but one of his expensive players regarding the retainage of their services
3) the avoidance of any other expensive free agent signing
4) after first denying it, saying he had to bring the payroll down to a certain level.
5) the ten percent across the board cutbacks on all non-baseball matters not associated with the roster payroll
6) the need for additional refinancing and by SNY in order for the Mets to be able to pay back their loans.
7) the admittance that he intentionally signed inexpensive players knowing they could not help the team in iwinning but that he had no other choice due to the financial situation..
8) he understood what Jose was seeking and still did not present an official and binding initial offer- just to get the long negotiating process started – after Jose officially filed for free agency (as he said Jose would start out high and he would start out low)
9) Jose’s history at being injury prone

The above is all fact. They serve as character examination.

The disagreement with the facts as we know them comes taking Sandy at his word about Jose being a priority but not Jose when he said he did not want to be distracted.

Even hypothetically, the patterns lean highly toward the general manager not being sincere while there is no trail to follow to show the same applied to the shortstop. That is not saying the shortstop was any more sincere than the general manager, just that the assertions being made are just supposition, quoting Samson, hindsight and an opinion of when and when not negotiations should be conducted (again, David Ortiz was re-signed two days after he could sell his services to the highest bidder – an AL team looking for a DH).

Sandy should have made some sort of binding, initial offer just to offset any criticism that he was giving us all the double-talk. Then Jose could not evade the blame game for what happened after that.

And Samson’s statement is fact too. As are Francessa’s statements. I put all those facts together and the overwhelming conclusion to me is that Reyes was going to go with the highest dollar. You can disagree with me, but that is the only logical reading of those facts that I can make.

Again all hypothetical. Sandy wouldn’t negotiate at one point, neither would Reyes. Both played the game the same way to their advantage.

We cannot say for certainity Jose was insincere about staying a Met and wasn’t out for the biggest buck no matter no matter which team offered what anymore that we cannot say for certain that Sandy was not sincere in wanting to re-sign him if hec ould and that his steps he took – and didn’t – no matter what the time frame – was just his way of handling it.

We can both speculate and give it is opinion – but not as fact unless there is so much circumstantial evidence as to give an overwhelming conclusion.

If Jose didn’t want to negotiate in the middle of the season, why would he want to after the season but before declaring free agency? That really makes no sense from the perspective of the player. They’ve waited so long to become a free agent, they are surely not going to to chuck that opportunity away UNLESS the other party meets their demands right away.

And again — I take NOTHING a GM says seriously concerning plans, speculations, analysis, hypothesis etc, regarding future events or current situations. Whether that is Sandy, Cashman, Epstein, Ricco etc etc. (The only exception being factual assertions of past events). They say things because they CAN’T tell the truth for one reason or another (and the reasons are usually good).

And again, there was no way Reyes was going to negotiate with the Mets prior to testing free agency UNLESS the Mets offered him “crawford money” right off the bat. So it’s not that Sandy didn’t want to sign Reyes during the season or in October, it was that it wasn’t feasible given Sandy’s unwillingness to go to “crawford money” levels and Reyes unwillingness to settle for less before seeing if the could get it.

It was as much up to Reyes as it was up to Sandy in terms of getting a deal earlier. And given Reyes’ desires at the time, an earlier deal was impossible.

As for David Ortiz, he’s wed to Boston. He’s said many times he didn’t want to play for anyone else. He also wasn’t looking for a long term deal. If Reyes wanted to sign for 2 years 26 million, Sandy would have jumped for it!

Starting from the early part of the season on, Sandy ALWAYS wanted to resign Reyes. It’s just that crazy Loria got in the way. If not for Loria, Reyes would be Met today with a contract worth up to $100 MILLION dollars.

You can choose to ignore Samson and say he was lying, but there was no reason for him to lie at that point.

Other than that, I can live with all 4 other ” mistakes” quite easily.
The ” buyer” idea pretty much got killed when Dillon Gee was lost and Santana close behind him. An overachieving team, relying on the strength of its rotation and losing 2 of 5 SP has no chance.
Nimmo was eventually signed, so I don’t see the problem. Back under the old CBA, there was little incentive for any pick to sign prior to the Aug 15 deadline.
The FF signing was marginal in the big picture. Sure SA should have waited a bit longer and probably could have saved a few million $ in the process. However, he paid a 2nd tier closer, 2nd tier closer money and the 2nd tier closer struggled with physical issues all year and struggled.
The OF is more circumstancial than a mistake. Beltran and Pagan weren’t going to be here in 2013 anyway. So, SA targeted high- end pitching and a high-end C instead. Why not ?
Pretty sure this OF will undergo several changed over the next 12 to 18 months.

2005 274/300/386 686 OPS and 81 OPS+. 300 OB% for the leadoff spot is dreadful
2006 Great! Best overall season offensively and defensively
2007 Very good! Poor down the stretch run
2008 Very good! Poor down the stretch run
2009 injury
2010 Average! 321 OB% again weak for a leadoff hitter
2011 Career year! Great! Step back defensively
2012 Typical Reyes year across the board. 780 OPS (782 Career) Again sub par defensively

I think what Ifthevan was trying to say was that he put up poor numbers when he did play in 2010, not for his career.

I wrote:

“if Sandy was sincere in wanting to re-sign Reyes, he gambled and lost by allowing Jose to test the free agent market instead of opening up negotiations after the season ended since Loria could not contact Jose, his agent or give hint to what his intentions were.”

Where does that say Sandy was not sincere and that I was not giving him the benefit of the doubt despite my suspicions to the contrary?

And I mentioned Jose was the one who refused to negotiate after a certain part of the season and thus Sandy could have then started to do so after it ended.

I did say those things, didn’t I? I think those coming from one who believes Sandy never wanted to re-sign Jose to begin with shows a willingness to listen to the other side’s point of view and an openness to admit he could have been mistaken by giving him the benefit of the doubt – even at that late stage.

It is not a case of being selective.

Based on the horrible manner in which Loria and Samson conduct themselves, I think it is safe to say one should not take what they say about themselves and others seriously enough to think it has a sense of truth and honesty.

As for Sandy, he has been caught in his own deception and double-talk so often enough as for it to become a question of his integrity when it comes to dealing with the public. When I do quote him as being honest, it is when his actions ACTUALLY DO MATCH HIS WORDS – i.e., trades not being based on talent due to free agency; that the Madoff swindle did affect the team’s finances (which he kept on denying) after it was obvious to all that it did; when he did admit he willingly signed “inexpensive” players that one could not expect to win with being they could only produce fifty percent (like so many of us concluded while others were contending they were moves he thought could help improve the team and just simply didn’t work out); like when he admitted monetary consideration would have been a strategy to possibly then pursue it he could not get the prospects he wanted for Beltran (which shows an intention not to keep him – even to just remain “competitive” as he said was with the less productive Hairston the following year later), etc.

And when you say there was no way he could have signed Reyes during that time I will not try to hypothesize why Sandy did not use the month of October when he had exclusive negotiating rights when he could have – except to mention that David Ortiz re-signed with Boston on November 2nd for a two year $26 million dollar deal when I’m sure there would have been other American League teams interested in his services as a designated hitter.

Maybe my problem was that I took Sandy at his word when he said he had an idea of what Jose was seeking and wanted to negotiate despite not offering a formal offer. This was so it would not come across as me not being open to the possibility that Sandy had changed his mind and decided it would be financially in the Mets best interests to try and re-sign him after Jose said he would not talk until after the season was over.

Maybe what I did with the above is best described with what Otter said to Flounder: I f-ked up… I trusted him?

Because 1 or 2 months extra seasoning doesn’t amount to a hill of beans for a player like Nimmo who likely requires 4-5 years total.

Why is it one or the other? Why couldn’t Sandy have been sincere in wating to re-sign Reyes, but not the price hte Marlins offered?

And the exclusive negotiating period had nothing to do with it because when Sandy approached Reyes to negotiate during the season, Reyes declined. That was plenty exclusive.

Yup, cuz why would his first draft pick ever, a kid who never played HS ball, need a lil more seasoning…

he is going to be part of the grounds crew by 2018 no matter what