10
2012
Wheeler and Niese Was The Price For Royals Package
An article by 
In case you were wondering, Sandy Alderson had a standing offer of Zack Wheeler and Jon Niese for the same package the Royals gave up for James Shields and Wade Davis. This according to what a source told Andy Martino of the Daily News.
This deal was on the table for Mets last week, per source: Niese and Wheeler to KC for Myers and similar package to what TB got for Shields.
Wil Myers, right-hander Jake Odorizzi, left-hander Mike Montgomery and third baseman Patrick Leonard or thereabouts, for Wheeler and Niese.
Decisions, decisions…
Original Post 12/9 11:30 PM
Jon Heyman is reporting that the Kansas City Royals have traded prized outfield prospect Wil Myers to the Tampa Bay Rays for starting pitcher James Shields and reliever Wade Davis.
** Heyman confirmed that it’s Shields, Davis & PTBNL for Myers, right-hander Jake Odorizzi, left-hander Mike Montgomery and third baseman Patrick Leonard.
I’ve been saying all along that the Royals wanted someone younger and that their interest in R.A. Dickey was being overly exaggerated. There are real concerns about Dickey’s age, being a one year rental, and what the Mets are demanding for him.
The talk that the Royals would get desperate for Dickey once Zack Greinke signed was so over the top and not based on reality. It made no sense.
Shields, 30, won 15 games for the Rays last season with a 3.52 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP in 227.2 innings pitched with 223 strikeouts. He is signed through 2013 with a $12 million team option for 2014.
Wade, 26, had a tremendous season in 2012 and posted a 2.43 ERA and 1.09 WHIP in 70 innings pitched with 87 strikeouts and just 27 walks. He is under team control through 2017.
The Mets need to make up their minds and stop dilly-dallying.
If you want Dickey then extend him already and stop jerking the guy around…
If you want to trade him for an outfielder stop yanking everyone’s chain and make a bonafide offer….
Enough of this waiting nonsense.
Start bringing in all these wholesale changes you promised over two months ago…
This post is still being updated….
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
139 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- Dave In Spain: on Wheeler Pitches Five Innings, Shakes Off Some Rust: Interesting observations. It´ll be interesting to see...
- Al: on Mets Need More Time To Get Better Understanding Of Ike Davis?: He should just go away
- Metsie: on Mets Need More Time To Get Better Understanding Of Ike Davis?: If the answer to every player's struggles...
- Hotstreak: on Mets Need More Time To Get Better Understanding Of Ike Davis?: Its no longer a rescue its now...
- XtreemIcon: on Logan Verrett Talks About His Road To The Show With MMO: In Jack's last 8.2 IP, he's walked...
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5389 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Wow! That was quick.
Told you so!
It figures. A wasted opportunity for a future stud.
And then, there was Texas….
Would’ve thought the Rangers would’ve reacted after the Dodgers took Greinke from under their noses.
I can’t say I’m surprised but I think the Rays gave up a lot. If anyone was desperate it was the Rays not the Royals.
David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, Jake Odorizzi, Alex Cobb, Jeff Niemann, Chris Archer.
Exactly how are the Rays desperate?
Dude the Rays got back a haul. Jake Odorizzi is a guy I wanted the Mets to draft instead of Havens back in 2008. They also got Myers and Montgomery who even though had a rough year is still a good prospect.
They didnt get one major leaguer, all unproven prospect. The Royals just got a #2 starter and sick setup man. Unless you prospect drunk I dont see how the Rays benefit here. Maybe just one of those prospects becomes a productive major leaguer of the odds hold.
Take a look at Tampa’s staff even without Shields and Davis. They just added the best hitting prospect and 2 other top pitching prospects for 2 expendable pitchers. They didn’t trade Shields for Brandon Nimmo.
#Royals acquire RHPs James Shields, Wade Davis and player to be named or cash from Tampa Bay for Myers, Odorizzi, Montgomery and Leonard.
Royals just gutted their farm system for James Shields rofl !
Big game won’t be pitching any big games in KC.
Royals do have the deepest and best minors in MLB. It will take a lot more than that to gut their system.
I guess the bar has been set for top outfield prospects. If you want one you will have to pay dearly. The Mets picked the wrong year to need their outfield revamped.
pitching is always at a premium. not to worry
“#Royals acquire RHPs James Shields, Wade Davis and player to be named or cash from Tampa Bay for Myers, Odorizzi, Montgomery and Leonard”
WOW.
Everybody keeps talkin about Texas as a possible destination for Dickey in a trade. But nobody is talkin about Detroit. If Anibal Sanchez signs with another team, like Anaheim, then the Tigers are gonna get anxious to make a move to replace him and may call the Mets for Dickey. If that happens we have to get Nick Castellanos who is their best prospect.Really good young hitter who switched from 3B to the OF last year.
toronto,anaheim, texas and a half dozen others are in need of an ace.
The wade Davis addition puts it over the top but I still do not understand Shields being viewed as more attractive to the Royals. Shields will be 31 in December he has pitched over 200 innings over the past six years which can be viewed as durable or ready to break depending on your point of view. Dickey’s contract demands are in line with Shields contract and they would have had Dickey for an extra year. I don’t know it just seems like he is being under valued by other GM’s IMO.
I didn’t see that they added odo in the deal as well. This looks bad to me for KC. They would have been better off going Myers for Dickey straight up, if that was acceptable for SA.
wade would have been sweet to get. KC did good if they wanted a ST fix at SP to compete right now.
Shields though is still just a 2 year rental, at 2x the cost. Even doing the match, you could offer Dickey 1 hell of a 1 year deal and still be in for less for 2 years. And I bet Dickey has a better year.
But, up to KC to get what they want. And if nothing else, the higher end SP market just got a lot smaller.
Oh, did not see at first they added all those other guys in. Must be nice to be overloaded with high end prospects to trade.
Still think they would be better with Dickey, and odds are could have saved some of that other talent.
This is why KC can’t get out of their own way for 20 years. They are not a couple of pitchers, James Shields included away from contention. To give up talents like Myers and Odorizzi and even Montgomery despite a bad year is insanse when they’ll lose Shields to free agency after just 2 years.
How do you already know he wont sign an extension? Has that been established?
If Shields has a good two years he will be looking for more money than KC can usually dole out.
When was the last time KC paid a player of James Shields caliber? Have you heard of Zack Grienke? They traded him so they wouldn’t have to pay him what they’re going to have to pay Shields. Especially since Shields is looking forward to his one big pay day.
Have you kept up with the latest? The Royals as well as the Mets are now getting an extra $50 million a year with the new national broadcast deal. Some teams will spend it, other teams like the Mets wont. $50 million extra a year is a game changer. Also the Royals are in the best position to win a division than they have been in 20 something years. Not every team have to play it like the Mets if they don’t want to.
I’ll believe it when I see it. The Royals have been pocketing revenue sharing money for years. Only recently have they started to spend money on player developement. When they spend on a big ticket item then I’ll buy it.
Each club aggregates local radio and
television revenues (all those not in the
national contract), ticket sales, luxury suite
rentals, concessions, and parking (minus
expenses) and pays 31% of this pool to the
league.
These revenues, which comprise the Base
Plan, are distributed equally among the 30
teams.
Dude, if you don’t know why the Royals traded Greinke, you shouldn’t even comment. You’re not a baseball fan. It’s widely know that Greinke wanted out of KC. The Royals didn’t want to trade him until Greinke went public. People who make crap up are idiots.
job well done by the royals? lol no.
I think that the Royals got fleeced here. Jamie Shields was signed to a series of team options by Tampa Bay – 7MM for 2012, 9MM for 2013 and 12MM for 2014 plus performance bonuses . Tampa Bay exercised their team option on Shields at 10.25MM on 10/3012 for the 2013 season. But, in my mind Shields’ Tampa Bay team option for 2014 now gets voided with this trade meaning Shields is a FA after next season unless Kansas City signs him to a contract extension. I just don’t understand the Mets FO going back and forth on Dickey instead of getting that modest contract extension done and then trying to tempt the Royals with a package of Niese and Mejia plus if nec some other Met B prospects ( Kansas City wanted to acquire 1SP and 1 SP candidate- I think they move Davis back to the SP rotation ) not just 1 SP in trade for Myers plus.
I agree with you. Indecision is costing the Mets dearly.
Texas and Toronto are still in need of aces…
I believe Baltimore may also need pitching.
The Mets should aim for
CF
C
SS ( to move Tejada to 2B )
If this means the Mets trade one or more of
Niese
Dickey
Murphy
Duda
and can get a top CF, Catcher, and SS, you gotta make those moves.
So what the hell happened? Two quality proven players for a handful of prospects. We wont know the winner here for 4-5 years and already some have it all figured out. How do you know which prospects will flop and which will make it? I’ll tell you who won’t flop, Shields and Davis that’s who.
Tampa KILLED that trade. What an idiot Dayton Moore is. Good at drafting, terrible at building the major league team. Wow.
If the Royals go to the post season for the first time in decades nobody will care, but if they dont someone will lose their job at the end of next season.
Just heard the Royals are definitely putting Davis in the rotation so the Royals traded for two-fifths of their rotation. If Davis pitches as a starter the way he did out of the bullpen it changes things dramatically. Davis was a BA Top 25 prospects for 2-3 years and was huge as a starter in the minors. Plus we don’t know who the PTBNL is.
Where were the Mets on this?
Nowhere because KC was reportedly asking for Niese and Wheeler for Myers.
Will not be able to evaluate this trade until the end of the season and with other moves made this year and next. Though doubtful that KC will hit pay dirt in 2013, if it builds itself up to .500, the progress will be there with more promise for 2014. Shields and Wade still have many years ahead of them.
The Royals are a young club and even with a promising farm system its front office recognizes it can’t do everything from building from within. And they are willing to take on more expenses to try and compliment that young talent.
I disagree. Until 2-3 of those prospects actually produce a better MLB WAR than Shields and Davis, the Royals are clear winners.
Shields is a pretty good major league pitcher. So is Davis. Big gamble by the Rays. What they got is unproven at this level, no matter how you look at it. Any time you trade proven pitching for potential hitting it is a risk, since pitching is so much more important.
Sounds like you have people here that would have had no problem trading Niese and Parnell for all these unproven kids.
Have to agree with you here. Won’t know until these prospects hit the MLs, if they all even do.
But that’s the gamble with trading for most any and all prospects.
This pitching market this off season is insane, IMO. Kurodo gets $15 MIL for one season from the Yankees? This is a 38 year old pitcher, same age as Dickey. And get he’s not worth whatever he’s asking from the Mets – which I’m willing to bet is a little less than $15 MIL for the 2 years.
Never fails, no matter who the Mets GM is, that when a big trade happens people ask why didn’t the Mets do this? LOL, to get even Myers it looks like it would have cost the Mets Niese and Dickey, as someone mentioned earlier, maybe even Niese and Wheeler to get a deal like this… why would the Mets do that?
Remember the majority of the comments across Met land when Omar picked up Dickey?
Went along the lines of sarcastic: “post season, here we come!’
LOL……
crazy how Omar had scouted RA when he was running the Texas drafts back in 1996…and was rumored to have wanted to trade for him back in 2008 after Dickey did this to them
http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280624121
What I never understood though…is how the media never wanted to make that connection b/w Omar and RA
Maybe because despite an outstanding spring RA was among the first cuts. Maybe if he heads north out of ST Omar would’ve gotten more press.
Why do I think we are going to get the 2nd or 3rd “best” deal for a young player and then he is going to fizzle. The Matt Holiday – Jason Bay sindrome.
Great job once again by one of the best GM’s in the game – Andrew Friedman.
He gets rid of a guy who turns 31 in a week, also a 27 year old who was supposed to be a starter but couldn’t crack the rotation after 3 years of trying (with a very hot wife by the way she used to work for me)
Gets back two top prospects, one of which could be a cornerstone in the lineup as soon as this year.
Shields just watched Greinke and will watch others get paid on the open market. If he has 2 quality years in KC, he’s gone.
This is why KC is who they are and Tampa is more than a team that stocked up on early draft picks.
I totally agree. I think Friedman is the best GM in the game but the trade was a coup for the Rays. I think Myers and Odorizzi will both be excellent major leaguers and if Montgomery finds himself forget it. I don’t see why the Royals think they’re close enough to move all that young controllable talent for win now pitchers.
Not just the best GM, but also has a great team under him. Gerry Hunsicker is one of the best in the game…and guess what genius owner drove him out of NY….
Metsie once asked me who would I rather have as a GM, McIlvaine, Harazin, Phillips, Omar or Hunsicker. I said Hunsicker by a long shot. Not even debatable.
Gerry would never work for the wilpons again.
Same with Omar…who unlike Cashen and Duquette, refused to work for the Wilpons under a consultant title, even after Sandy and Omar went out to dinner.
I read that Omar and Sandy have been friends for years, they went to South Africa together in 2006 on some MLB global initiative. Even then, Omar refused to work for Jeff Wilpon, who it was said made his life a living hell in 2010.
I have a friend that works for another Sterling Enterprise subsidiary of which Jeff is a VP at, and he said Jeff was one of the most arrogant nasty folks he ever came across.
there was an article where it was revealed that Wilpon and another friend created a social club called S.O.B ( sons of bosses ). It’s like the kid is proud of the fact he would be washing someone’s dishes if it werent for his father ( who i think is a great guy on a personal level )
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080329/SPORTS/803290333
And Horwitz, who’s often Jeff’s first call of the morning, knows first-hand the consequences of not doing things right.
“I’m not going to lie, he’s yelled at me through the years,” he admitted. “If I screw up, he tells me. I remember one time he got on me for showing up 10 minutes late for our nine o’clock meeting. But by the next day, he forgets.”
I mean seriously…Horowitz is damn near 70 now…and he is getting screamed on by some arrogant jerk…
Hi Fonzie,
Does that mean instead of Alderson or only if Sandy was to resign?
Sandy wasn’t one of the choices but if I had my druthers I would like to have both of them. Hunsicker as GM with Sandy as President or Sandy as GM with Hunsicker as his Sr VP and Asst GM like he was with Tampa. Hunsicker doesn’t want to be a GM anymore though. Mets screwed up with that one. They should’ve made him the GM with McIlvaine in charge of Scouting with Phillips and Omar as top assistants.
Hunsicker is with LAD now, not with Tampa
“Dec. 9, 11:17 pm: The Mets are looking for Olt and 24-year-old OF Leonys Martin from the Rangers in a deal for Dickey, according to John Harper of the Daily News.”
I would be dancing in the street if they could pull that off. I would imagine we would have to chip in something, but I wonder what?
I would rather have Profur
where would Olt play here ? he’s a 3B
I think we have that spot covered for the next 8 years
Of course you would rather have Profar, that’s because they aren’t trading him and at the moment wouldn’t even trade him for Upton.
But back to where Olt would play. It appears that scouts believe he can play the OF well enough.
I would also take Andrus and more pitching prospects in that case…
Either way, the mets have to solve their middle defense issues first before they the corner OF
An up the middle defense that had Murphy at 2B, ____ at CF, and Thole at Catcher is one that compromises their best asset ( pitching )
I would even aim at Boston and Xander Bogaerts, who is 19 and the org’s top position player prospect. If trading Niese Flores and Murphy get you Bogaerts and some more, you have to make that move.
I would even dare to say the Mets should make a run at Bourn, who plays a very solid CF, is a top of the lineup guy. Things we desperately need.
The other position that we desperately need is Catcher.
If trading Dickey gets you Travis D’anard, Gose and some more, you have to make that move.
I have a feeling Sandy is just counting the days til he is outta here…he never wanted to be here…why would he go all out ?
They have been on record not trading Profar or Andrus and they certainly aren’t doing it for a one year rental of a 38 year old knuckleballer no matter how great he has been the last 3 years.
You snooze, you lose! And Alderson aka Rip Van Winkle, appears to be in a deep coma. Myers was the player this team so desperately needed. I hope he awakes out of his coma and targets Profur or Castellano now. I’m getting this sick feeling that we could be entering 2013 a worse team then we finished 2012 with.
Snooze you lose? So you would have been ok with Niese and Wheeler for what KC traded?
Sometimes, snooze you win.
If you dissect this, isn’t Myers ranked 25 spots higher than Wheeler? Myers was selected best minor league player by BA last month. So if you swap Wheeler for Myers, and then the other three top prospects for Niese, is that really so bad?
Then you re-sign Dickey and you have your rightfielder and three more top prospects to replace Wheeler.
Yes it would be that bad.
Please explain? Do you disagree that Wil Myers was voted the top prospect in baseball and BA minor league player of the year? And he did it mostly in AAA?
Why is it bad, I’d really appreciate your thinking here.
No I don’t disagree that Myers is a great bet on a bat. What I do disagree is that we can’t trade 2/5 of our future rotation in order to get that bat. In Citi, we need pitching as a strength. Trade Dickey? Fine, that affects the next 1-2 years most likely. Trading Niese AND Wheeler? That affects the next 5-7 years.
Well technically you wouldnt be trading 2/5th away because you would be receiving Odorizzi whom is a top pitching prospect a few notches below Wheeler and Montgomery a struggling lefty pitcher prospect….
I still wouldnt do that deal….Im not going to undervalue Niese he is young, proven and has done nothing but improve every year and he is signed to a team friendly deal. Where as every player you’ll be receiving from KC has Question marks?
not sure it would be that bad.
It really would be Neise for the big bat, and the extra pieces (Montgomery and the 4th guy whoever that is).
Wheeler for Oragami (or however you spell that) and right now, Oregano is as good or better (and closer to the majors) of a pitching prospect (and lety, right?).
So call that part a wash, and yes, it is a viable deal for the mets (pending who the PTBNL is)
Would you have been okay with dealing Dickey and Niese or Wheeler and Niese for that same package? Dickey and Niese is prety much on par with what Tampa gave up. Tampa still has enough pitching to win the AL East even after that trade. The Mets staff would be decimated of they traded Niese and Dickey.
The Royals and Rays just stepped on the Mets anthill and all the ants are running around like crazy this morning.
I don’t get it though. I never looked at the Royals as a great fit when I heard they were looking for Niese AND Wheeler and weren’t that interested in Dickey.
Wheeler AND Niese or Wheeler OR Niese? Where did you read this?
I think MLBTR had it as Wheeler and Niese.
I’ve looked everywhere and cannot find a link other than the Royals were more interested in talking about Niese or Wheeler rather than Dickey. Only thing close to what you say TRS was Cerrone speculating Wheeler and Niese for Myers, but that was him and not an actual report.
I just checked there and didn’t find it either. I saw it friday. Maybe it was SNY recaps of the winter meetings. I watched a bunch of videos on the website. I know I read it too that they asked for Wheeler and Niese. I’ll find it before the end of the day.
Look, I don’t like using Cerrone as a source but on this one he didn’t say “I think”
http://metsblog.com/metsblog/royals-asked-for-wheeler-and-niese-for-myers/
Off of the same report:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/12/wheeler-and-niese-were-mentioned-by-royals-for-myers.html
Hmmm
Adam Rubin of ESPN New York reports that the Royals actually talked to the Mets more about Niese and Wheeler in trade variations involving Myers – not Dickey, and adds that either way it’s not happening.
I’m not sure that is saying both of them together for Myers. Reads more like they were more interested in discussing one of those two guys rather than Dickey.
Otherwise would’t there have been a logical, “what are they nuts?!?!” rant?
I thought so to at the time but now with details of this trade coming out and with what Cerrone said I think it’s clear they wanted 2 starters. That is most likely why the deal got expanded with TB.
Well, I have read so much I would have to go back and look. It was from Twitter, but believe me I am not making it up. One of the beat guys mentioned it I believe. If I have time I will look for it.
considering that they did just get 2 ML SPs for the package, i am sure they wanted more than Neise, so Neise and Wheeler looks about right.
If the Mets would have included Wilmer Flores (a useless part thanks to Wright) with Dickey, the Mets would have gotten this deal done.
Really, you think so? I don’t see that as being a match for the Royals. So you wanted them to trade Niese, Wheeler and Flores for that package?
What is your deal with Wheeler and Niese? Did I say that? Dont put words in my mouth. I said Dickey and Flores.
Oh, I thought you were replying to my earlier post. Sorry. No I don’t think that would have been even CLOSE to getting it done.
“If the Mets would have included Wilmer Flores (a useless part thanks to Wright) with Dickey, the Mets would have gotten this deal done.”
Yeah sorry you have no idea if that’s true and based on the fact they just took 2 pitchers they hope to be in their starting rotation – unless Flores can pitch, you’re likely wrong.
I mean here you are basically admitting Flores is a 3B or bust right?
So why does KC need him? You think they are ready to give up on 23 year old Moustakas who hit 20 HR last year playing 3B and played a pretty solid defense?
Why? Because we’re the Mets and our trade offers are the best?
You’re just saying that because you want to blame Alderson for this.
You wanted what the Rays got? Get Niese and Gee and pack their bags and start the year with a rotation of Santana-Dickey-Harvey
If you’re okay with that, fine but when Chris Young and Mike Pelfrey are pitching and we’re waiting on Wil Myers don’t come back and complain we have no starting pitching.
The Rays could afford the chance, the Mets couldn’t.
There was just an article posted about the Viola deal. Even though he pitched fairly well for the Mets, the clear winner in that trade was the Twins. On the flip side, if you look at simply the players involved and exclude the money, the Johan deal was a steal for the Mets. The Twins ended up getting nothing in return.
I love those who are proclaiming winners in this deal. There is no way to tell for at least a couple of years. Myers might be the real deal or he might fizzle out. I believe his numbers were in the PCL so they might be a bit tainted. We will see how Flores does out there this year as a comparison.
Ultimately, this might be a deal which gives both teams what they were looking for. At least today, both GMs feel that way. Time will tell who was right.
Fangraph’s take on this deal:
Royals Mortgage Future to be Mediocre in 2013
I guess that title is all you need to know about how they feel regarding this trade.
If the royals win the division and make the playoffs this year (or next) then it worked out. if they finish 3rd the next 2 years, and Shields leaves, and Myers/orazzani become cheap fixture stars, it was Dayton at his finest.
but, at least he can say he tried to go for it for the fans!
One GM told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that “Myers is no slam dunk” and added that this is “far from a lopsided deal.” Rosenthal suggests teams like the Royals can too often get fixated on their prospects and pass on opportunities to compete.
The Mets have put themselves in too much of a hole to improve the club via the trade route. The hopes they gave us the first half of each of the past two seasons were dashed by a front office that dismantled a good combination of veteran players and young talent that with some tweaking could have been very good (more than good enough to compete for a wild card slot) without costing us our farm system. We all know of the type of players we replaced them with (“inexpensive” as Sandy admitted).
Thus they would now be better served waiting till the mid-season and becoming sellers once again (I have little faith they will be in the position to be buyers but I would love to be proved wrong). We won’t have many bargaining chips then, either, but at least Santana might be eyed by contenders short on starting pitching.
So we have to now be patient and hope that the good core of young players we do have on the major league level will soon be supplemented by those on the farm system. But even that will have it’s limitations – if we are unable to concentrate on certain free agents to also fill key holes (and not on the downside of their careers) there will still be too many slots to fill that could cause us to be mediocre at best over the next few years.
And why did Sandy then pass on the opportunity to trade Hairston to Detoir? Was it that he was asking for too much or is it because the Tigers farm system itself is perceived as being too thin by many? Perhaps so, but it is hard to believe there wasn’t somebody toward the bottom of the organization’s top 20 ranked prospects (attached) that wouldn’t have more of a chance to help the Mets long-term (i.e. vision) than having retained Hairston?
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/11/19/3664262/detroit-tigers-top-20-prospects-for-2013
the 40 man is already stuffed, and the Mets are overloaded with “bottom of the top 20″ type prospects. So they may have felt exactly what they said, that the return (a non-entity low level prospect they did not have room for?) was not worth giving up about their only viable ML OF at the time.
Hi If,
The prospect might not have taken a spot on the 40 man roster and, as many have pointed out, we got absolutely nothing back for our closer.
Sure we got something back. About 20+M.
Hi Trs,
Actually, it wasn’t “we” as in the Mets as it was “they” as in the Wilpons…
Well Joey, if you don’t think the Mets financial issues are linked to their ability to spend on new players then I guess I will defer. The Wilpons aren’t broke to start with and didn’t just pocket that 20M, unfortunately they have broken the Mets over the last decade and the Mets as an organization is in hock so I am sure that 20M was used to pay off business expenses.
Hi TRS,
Ah, you know me well enough to know I feel it is entirely linked to that. The Wilpons are trying to hang onto a team that twice didn’t even have enough money to pay the electric bill and other end of the month expenses.
The problems they have today have little to do with what Sandy said a few months after coming on board:
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=6077848
With what had been reported, we suspected the payroll was just a drop in the ocean in regards to the Mets accumulating financial mess. It has been confirmed the Madoff situation severly affected the business operations of the entire franchise itself (as Sandy initially claimed and later retracted). We also know the Mets were losing money more than they were losing games. Last March Newsday obtained financial records showing that Citi Field revenues had dropped more than 30 percent since it opened in 2009, with premium ticket sales down almost 50 percent. The financial documents also showed that concession revenue alone dropped 28 percent since 2009, to $10.9 million in 2011. Newsday also reported that parking was down 37 percent, to $7 million. Ticket sales for the 10,635 premium seats declined from $99.3 million in 2009 to $50.6 million through 2011 and those represent about 25 percent of Citi Field.
But yes, Sandy was unaware of the extent of their finacial problems when urged by Selig to take over the club. He thought it was just a matter of reducing the payroll? All he had to do was to call a friend working with Newsweek.
And he could not have anticipated the state of affairs as of this past month?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/sports/baseball/mets-and-sny-seek-banks-help-with-debt.html?_r=0
Sandy Alderson is too smart a lawyer and business person not to have understood what he was getting into not only with the inside information he had working closely with Selig but by just being able to read the newspapers and between the lines like the rest of us less astute in these matters were able to do.
When your closer has a 17.5 million dollar option hanging over him then you’re not getting anything back for him. Milwaukee did the Mets a favor taking him off our hands and using him as a set up man. No team was taking him to be their closer when all he needed was to finish 21 more games. If he didn’t have that option then we would’ve gotten back 2 better prospects for him. As it was he didn’t pitch well enough to justify the 8 million he made last year let alone 17.5 he would’ve made if we kept him. We didn’t dump Mariano Rivera.
That would make sense…..except:
1 – according to Terry Collins wanted to rip up the option because he was afraid the mets would hold him back from getting regular work, even in non-save situations.
this was ACCORDING TO TERRY COLLINS, who has no incentive to make his front office look dumber than they already do.
2 – K-Rod had hired Boras BEFORE the trade deadline..if K-Rod’s option were to vest, Boras doesnt get a dime. Why would Boras take on a client that he wouldnt make money off of commission…unless the plan was to be a free-agent and get a multi-year deal in 2012
3 – As soon as he went to Mil – the option was torn up…in exchange for 500K
The Mets bullpen lost 12 games after K-Rod left, 8 in the 9th inning…
add in the fact that Izzy and K-Rod were the mentors on the bullpen, it is a bit of a headscratcher that Sandy wouldnt bring back either one.
Than again, this is with the assumption Sandy actually scares about something that doesnt appear on a financial sheet
Hi Fonzie,
We’re talking about a billion dollar industry. In a playoff hunt, the Dodgers, Texas and Washington (teams that Selig had MLB take over) today wouldn’t think twice about the contract and vesting options already committed to for one who already had 23 saves in 28 opportunties with 73 more games still left in the season Nor would they be looking to send him packing, especially with nobody to take over in the closer role.
And BTW, KRod was amiable to negotiating that vesting bonus and no-trade clause in lieu of furthe compensation down the road – and that was not contingent on the Mets trading him, either.
Overpaid, yes. But as we’ve seen, outrageous contracts like the one agreed to with KRod back in 2009 are of common occurance. It’s looked at as a business expense and, at worse, a business write-off.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/25/report-francisco-rodriguez-willing-to-waive-no-trade-vesting-option/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/sports/baseball/behind-scenes-of-a-trade-that-sent-mets-francisco-rodriguez-to-milwaukee.html
Hi Just,
Thanks so much for adding more of the real world in relation to KRod situation.
Bit market teams pay these ridiculous sums to individuals with the projection that the revenue in return from that player being a part of the overall team picture will more than make up for it. That goes for the Mets as it does for Los Angeles, the Yankees, Boston and other big and medium size market clubs that have the means to do so. And except for the Mets, notice how much more money has been made by those other organizations – way more than in proportion to the roster payroll percentage wise.
Same would have held true for the Mets had the Wilpons not been run into the ground not only by Madoff but with the way they misunderstood who made up the bulk of the fan base – for the Mets roots are mostly with the working middle-class and to snub them in favor of a more afluent fan base is suicide for those who go to games in the Bronx are not of the same mold of those who go to Flushing – or at least used to go.
The team wasn’t good enough to hang in a playoff hunt. They were scuffling between 2 games under to 2 games over 500. They played way over their heads. There are good teams, bad teams and mediocre teams, we were the mediocre team before the trades.
If Texas, Washington and LA had our personnel they wouldn’t have been dumb enough to think they were in a playoff hunt with that team. Well maybe Ned Colletti would, he’s one of the worst GM’s in the sport but most smart baseball people can recognize the good from the bad and the good from the mediocre. No other team ever had to worry about an option like that for a closer because it was the highest option ever for a closer. And the dumbest.
K-Rod wanted to renegotiate a new deal instead of that option. The Mets wanted no part of him. Neither did any other team since he wound up settling for arbitration to be a setup man. Boy you sure do love mediocrity.
You really need new material to post about. between thousands of repetitive posts and made up stories you continue to bore the crap out of everybody.
Hi Fonzie,
You referring to me, Just, Joe D. or all the others that have been making up the same stories -that are boring the crap out of you?
The Lone Ranger rides again.
Well since you repeat yourself all the time and make up stories about 30 years ago take a wild guess.
except the wild story about k-rod wanting to rip up his 2012 option has been proven by no one other than TERRY COLLINS. Who said K-Rod wanted to pitch freely in 2011 w/o worrying about a team messing with his work load to avoid an option.
Yeah rip it up for a multi year deal in its place. No thank you.
All others making up stories? You mean all two of you. Or as you call it, many. If I eat 2 hamburgers does that mean I ate many hamburgers? lol
what were the mets weaknesses in 2011?
the bullpen + sporatic SP
what did the mets do to address those weaknesses?
trade beltran for wheeler…and k-rod for nothing…
Defense and baserunning was also an atrocity. They still averaged the same unber of runs per game after the Beltran trade. And K-Rod was worth nothing. We were lucky enough to get rid of him.
…and that luck got us exactly what?
The same as it would’ve had we kept him. A losing team. He was awful this year anyway.
Ironically, when the mets were ACTUALLY out of it in 2012, they refused to part with Scott Hairston and Tim Byrdack in a futile attempt to put a positive spin on this year.
Byrdack gets injured and Hairston’s 20 HR’s made absolutely no difference this year.
This was a good deal for Royals and Rays, one the Mets could not match. If you had your choice of Niese and Dickey for Shields and Davis which one would you take, not to mention Mets do not have the pitching depth to even offer both in same deal. Rays did, case closed , move on
That’s why I think it became Niese and Wheeler.
Funny. Just in Tampa. Guess all of those big adverts with Price will have to be torn down.
Wheeler & Niese was all it would’ve took to take that package? Oh wow. Switch Leonard for Kelvin Herrera and I would’ve pulled the trigger.
Dickey won 20 games with a bad team. Shields won 15 with a better than average one. I don’t think the Mets are being unreasonable in their demands. Dickey 38 and Shields 32? So what, they are pitchers. They could both be done in by injury in a year.
Someday all baseball fans will stop using wins to determine good pitchers from bad. Does that make Dickey better than Clayton Kershaw and Felix Hernandez too?
How much did TRS pay you to post this?
LMAO!!!
Baseball America polled 8 MLB execs/scouts:
An AL Pro Scout: “I’ve gotta say—I think it’s a good trade for both teams. And I really understand and like it for Kansas City. At some point, they have to try to win. They’ve done a great job adding young talent to their big league club but have just come up a bit short with pitchers. It’s not an easy thing to do. They’ve acquired a present top-of-the-rotation veteran in Shields and a present fourth/fifth starter in Davis. These two guys will step right in and impact their rotation. I also like the fact that they gave up Mike Montgomery instead of (Yordano) Ventura. I have Ventura ahead of Montgomery and Odorizzi.
Tampa gets a great prospect in Myers but he isn’t a sure bet yet. I think he’s going to be a very good major league right fielder but still has some polishing off to do before he gets there. I like Odorizzi, but I don’t think his ceiling is higher than that of Davis. And Davis is on a very good contract. Montgomery is a bit of a wild card but has to get back to where he was and he’s never really been able to throw a breaking ball.
In the end, I think Tampa Bay did well in the players they got, but I think trading away Shields and the one guy (Davis) who had the best chance to help replace Shields’ innings not already in the rotation really sets them back for 2013 with questions remaining for 2014 on. They’re going to end up relying a lot on (Chris) Archer and Odorizzi as youngsters in the AL East the next few years. And will they be able to extend Price? So I understand it from both sides, but I think it’s fair. And I really like it for Kansas City.
Another AL Pro Scout: “Kansas City’s team is ready to roll. They just needed an ace and some starters. With Shields I think they can win the AL Central. Their everyday lineup is outstanding.
Wil Myers has chance to be a superstar-type player, a center fielder or right fielder hitting .300 with 25-plus home runs. Odorizzi is a fourth starter. Montgomery has some mechanical issues that need to be fixed but he will show you three potential plus pitches at any given time, and Leonard has big sock in his bat and profiles as a first base/third baseman.
The biggest thing is Dayton Moore needs to get over 500 this year to keep job. This deal may have helped him keep his job.”
An AL Front-Office Executive: “I don’t like the trade for KC, but I think the general reaction that this is the ‘worst trade ever’ is hyperbolic nonsense. The Royals are going to be better in 2013 with this trade, no doubt. But to judge the deal right now is silly. If the Royals make the playoffs and end nearly three decades of misery, it’s worth it. If the prospects don’t work out, then it’s a good trade for KC. If the Royals win 81 games each of the next two years and Myers turns into an All-Star then it’s a bad trade. All of those are within a realistic realm of possibility. To judge the deal right now with some sort of absolutism to an extreme is to simply exert a lot of energy to be part of the maddening crowd.”
Another AL Front Office Executive: “It’s a bold, fascinating baseball trade with layers of talent for both sides. Shields is an ace and his style, along with his work ethic permeates a clubhouse positively. Wade Davis is vastly underrated and should be able to start successfully going forward.
Wil Myers is a monster. Jake Odorizzi is an athletic, talented pitcher that is held in the same regard that Wade Davis was as a prospect four years ago. Montgomery has a huge arm with wobbly command that should transition to the bullpen reminiscent of when Matt Thornton got traded from Seattle to Chicago. Patrick Leonard has big power and profiles at third base or right field.
It’s a creative transaction on many levels. Both sides accomplished what they wanted to achieve. Shields and Myers are the headliners of the deal, although the many layers and secondary pieces of this transaction have a strong percentage chance to impact as well. It’s a fascinating, talent for talent, pure baseball trade.”
Another AL Front-Office Executive: “I like it a lot for Kansas City. Here’s the premise for why I think it was important for them. Wil Myers is not a major league ready impact bat, and might take a couple years of struggles burning into his major league service time, while Kansas City continues to toil around .500 and maybe Hosmer and Moose come into their own. Then they play in that mid-rotation market for guys like (Jeremy) Guthrie, (Ervin) Santana and even Odorizzi and then (Bruce) Chen/ (Jonathan) Sanchez types on the back-end with little or no chance of taking them to the next level.
For the people saying this is a desperate move on their part, what do they think Kansas City’s window is? I think it’s now, with a legit front-line horse like Shields and an absolutely stacked pen. I think they maximized Myers’ value.
We’ve seen what the market is for frontline starting pitchers (Zack Greinke, Matt Cain, Cole Hamels, Cliff Lee) and they can’t play in that market. They trade a top prospect who isn’t a sure thing even if you love him, and some replaceable pieces beyond that for no doubt above-average major league pieces in Shields and Davis.
The next two years are important, but my point is if they didn’t make this trade they aren’t winning with Guthrie and Santana leading the rotation, and they probably aren’t winning next year either. Are they just supposed to sit around and wait a couple more years of losing and mediocrity?”
And one more AL Pro Scout: “I think it’s a really good trade from Kansas City’s standpoint. You have two proven guys that aren’t making a lot of money. Now they don’t have to overpay for Anibal Sanchez. I’d do that trade in a heartbeat. (The Royals) have to win. Who cares if the Omaha Storm Chasers are good for the next couple of years? They have to win at the varsity level at some point, don’t they? I think it’s a great trade for the Royals. Could it come back to bite you? Yeah, but if they don’t win on TV, it doesn’t matter. It’s a winnable division.
“I think Montgomery will be really good with the (Rays). He’ll have some growing pains, but he’ll be really good maybe halfway through this year. I think Montgomery is the wild card that makes the trade interesting. I don’t know if they gave up on Montgomery, but he’s interesting. If he can become what he’s supposed to become, that’s what makes it really good. You’ll see if it was the kid or the organization.”
Just a tad better thought out than the knee-jerk reaction yesterday from the average fan on a blog that had no real clue what these guys were really all about.
plus, I was surprised to see so many people complaining that KC actually went out and traded for ML talent they were missing to try and complete their team and make a run at the playoffs. Especially because many of the same people were screaming when the mets did not do the same thing!
I agree. After I read this I thought it would be good to show what real baseball people thought rather than bloggers who reacted over the top yesterday.
Hi K Maxx,
What do those eight guys know, anyway? Who do they think are, Sandy Alderson?
Another lost offseason….. I don’t think just bringing in Ross and/or Hairston will cut it.
The problem is not that Royals wanted Niese/Wheeler but got Davis, and Shield for Myers.
The problem is that who was the last RH power bat Mets have drafted and developed and brought up to be part of roster; Agbayani, Milledge?
Maybe I might have missed some but who have they scouted, drafted, signed and developed in the past few years that we can be happy about?
This is the problem for this team, not that Royals wanted a boatload of pitchers for Myers.
Mets put themselves in this situation because of lack of intelligence with Madoff and lack of forward looking FO,.scouts, ownership, etc.
I mean who did Mets draft this year?
A SS, a 3B and a lot of RH pitchers but not one OF, let alone a RH power prospect.
This rests on SA and his FO who have been here for 3+ years and have no credible RH power hitter, Flores don’t count, projected to help team?
Corey Vaugh still can’t get out of Hi A ball so he’s not the answer unless he discovers his hidden talent.
So dissappointed in the drafting by this FO, but only the future will tell.
I hope you guys just caught Al Leiter and Mitch Williams discussing the KC-Tampa Bay trade tonight on MLB Network.
Fascinating discussion on mechanics, etc. and giving us insight on matters we might gloss over – including facts like Meyers is not done yet physically branching out, that KC has to look into the way they are developing their minor league pitching because so many of their prospects have gone backward instead of forward in their progress, that Meyers still has to prove he can hit the breaking ball when behind in the count, etc.
So much shop talk – and hardly a mention about stats of any kind – and certainly no talk about about saber stats. Just mechanics, attitude, how the players can blend in, what they have shown to date, what they have added to their cutters, etc. Same was discussed with the Tampa Bay executive (can’t remember if it was Friedman specifically) , including how long it took to really work out the deal – it wasn’t overnight but more like two months in the making before really taking off this weekend. He didn’t mention anything about stats, either. just about what they observed and feel Meyers and others
And Al Lieter also added that unlike KC, Tampa Bay has developed great pitching arms so they might very well be able to turn around the downward slide of the pitchers they recently obtained.
Oh, in his closing comments, Al did mention how Tampa Bay got some coveted prospects and saved $12 million in the process – but that talk about the financial aspect was indeed the very last thing he talked about.
Again, nowhere in this quick but in-depth conversation did these former professionals or the Tampa Bay executive talk in terms of stats. They kept it to in depth observation of their talent and what they saw in the mechanics of these kids that shows in an ability to adapt and improve upon. Saber fans should take note of that as far as the appropriateness of advanced stats in the world of professional baseball.
Sandy should definitely take notice for if he was included in that panel discussion it would be for sure that he would not be able to follow it.
So when Clubhouse Confidential talks about the trade and uses stats and numbers to analyze it, should I give 1,000 words on how there was no mention of mechanics? Shows and segments are specifically designed to talk about certain aspects. Players talk about playing, analysts analyze. When GMs are interviewed, payroll and roster composition are discussed. It’s all a matter of programming. It’s more to do with the format of television than what certain people think the best way to analyze players are. Take my word on that.
So take your high horse off your soapbox, get off of him and stop acting like your smarter and better than everyone who doesn’t think like you do. And definitely don’t bother responding to this. I said what I had to. You’re reply is of no consequence.
Why did you have to be such a doosh for? He’s the only one here that never insults everyone and is always respectful. Why did you feel the need to be such a jerkoff to him? I love how when Bayonne insults someone all hell breaks loose here, but it’s okay for everyone else to be an effin d-bg.
Hello Exteme,
In recent years one still has not heard discussions with Ralph Kiner, Tom Seaver, Ron Darling, Al Leiter, Mitch Williams, Larry Bowa and other professionals who played the game speak in terms of stats. Instead, we have those like Sandy Alderson thinking they know the game as well as anybody due to their ability to analyze advanced statistical graphs and charts. What has this created? A Met team that is floundering. An organization that follows a hitting approach based on PPPA which not only is messing up Met hitters like Ike Davis by not concentrating on the individual mechanics of each player – but also telegraphs a message to opposing pitchers that in May Bobby Ojeda warned was going to catch up on us.
Brian Kenny’s analysis sounds fine until he begins discussing it with those who played the game. Either they bring out the amateur understanding of the game he has or show that what Kenny professes was understood a long time before people had personal computes.
And thanks so much Maniac, for coming to my aid – I do very much appreciate it. However, I don’t think Extreme did anything to help sell his position or his posture. Certainly, what he said was more a reflection of himself than me.
Which stats were used to determine 1st round pick in 2011 Brandon Nimmo? Which stats were used to determine supplemental 1st round pick in 2011 Micheal Fulmer? Which stats were used to determine 1st round pick in 2012 gavin Cecchini? Do you know which stats they used to make their decisions? I do. NONE. All 3 of those picks were based on old school scouting so stop acting like you know whats going on in the front office.
I also find it funny how you reference Andrew Friedman a baseball outsider who is one of the biggest sabemetric advocates in baseball. Friedman’s backround was in the investment banking industry, he met oe of the owners of the Rays through a friend. 3 years later he was the GM. The only baseball backround he had was playing college ball just like what’s his name? Oh yeah Sandy Alderson. 2nd baseman in college.
Stats are an absolute must for teams to make player evaluations. No team makes player evaluations without checking the players stats. Ryan Thompson had a great mechanical swing. Guess what? He sucked. Indians Scouts said Jeff Kent will never be anything special with his swing mechanics, guess what? They traded him and he’s a borderline hall of famer. Just because you don’t understand what the stats mean and can’t decipher them doesn’t mean they’re useless.
And you must’ve missed when Leiter was talking about Myers HR’s, slug% and strikeout rate. They were also talking about Shields and Davis. Ralph Kiner talks about stats all the time. he mentions the importance of OB% just about every telecast he does. HR% and slug %, so does David Cone, Eric Byrnes and quite a few other ex players that are in the broadcast booth.
HI Fonzie,
You are absolutely correct – NO STATS were used to select Nimmo, Fuller or anyone else. It was indeed as you put 100 percent correctly put it that: “All 3 of those picks were based on old school scouting”.
So why is it that you always credit Sandy Alderson – who admitted he came in cold with no professinal knowledge of the game – for making the evaluations that led to first draft pick selections in Oakland, i.e. McGwire (1984), Weiss (1985) along with players like Steinbach (1983) and amateur free agents like Polonia, etc.?
And as far as on-base percentage, the importance of getting on base besides the base hit was understood since the modern era began. I will not post again the annual hitting stats since 1901 but will again point out that the range between batting averages and on-base percentages has been relatively consistent since the new strike zone and lower mound came into effect back in 1969. It rose significantly only during the steroid era. And, in fact, it was much higher in the late forties and early fifites.
And again, many batters are pitched around intentionally when there is an open base to set up the double play, etc. A lot of those walks are due to situational circumstances. Also, keep in mind, for example, that Lee Mazilli was moved to the leadoff spot purposly because he was always pitched around due to having no protection behind him.
There are not many left in the Sandy Alderson Fan Club. Certainly, those in the clubhouse aren’t carrying their membership cards with them. Neither are the majority of fans happy with the moves he made over the past two years and many who believe in him do say they feel there is still just not enough time to judge him – though they admit to having their doubts are now saying they will give him only one more year before they too join the bandwagon
Of all the other points and accusations you’ve again made, you are still the Lone Ranger.
Oh, and Fonzie,
Forgot to ask – how come regarding the take on the trade those eight MLB executives and scouts that were listed above did not refer to statistics, except to voice an opinion of potential figures Meyers could put up since “Stats are an absolute must for teams to make player evaluations. No team makes player evaluations without checking the players stats.” If those were absolute musts, why no reference to them both in the past and with future projections?
Lone Ranger rides again.
I think that you almost always win the trade when you get a proven commodity.
Honestly, I can’t think of when a boatload of prospects has worked out but I also think that position players have steadier and more predictable careers than pitchers.
I’d say that this is a fair trade with an acceptable risk/reward ratio that suits both team’s situations.
Kansas City’s trading of Meyers raises some questions.
We now know of two teams which dealt highly regarded prospects due to their strengths – the pitching rich Giants with Wheeler and the hitting rich Royals with Meyers. The Royals, like the Mets, are a below .500 and counting on a youth movement.. Meyers is ranked number 28 by baseball America and Wheeler not behind at 35. With that in mind
1) If Meyers was not an untouchable with KC, why is Wheeler one with New York?
2) With Sandy already aware of the minor league talent the Mets had – and keeping in mind his intention was to trade both Beltran and Pagan – when shopping around Beltran shouldn’t his focus been more on the outfield problems one could see happening down the road? With young pitching talent like Niese and Pelfrey (who was coming off a good 2010) along with prospects like Gee, Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Fulmer and Mazzoni, why decide on Wheeler and not concentrate on hitting instead? While Duda might have been one component we were counting on, there were doubts about Kirk, Baxter, Puello and others.
With the strengths and weaknesses of our minor league system at the time and Sandy determined not retain the stars that we had, would we not have been better off trying to obtain a Meyer-type rather than a Wheeler-type? Or rather than making headlines by obtaining one of the country’s top ranked minor league pitchers, how about two less highly ranked but still highly regarded ones instead?
Considering our situation as it was understood then and is still perceived now, was Zack Wheeler, though perhaps the best talented of the lot, really the best offer to take? Unlike Hairston, we knew Sandy had the upper hand in this one.
Any thoughts?