There is a difference between being competitive and being a playoff contender and that was the distinction even Sandy was saying.

Where did Sandy draw a line? Point it out because I never read anything of the sort. The line between competitiveness and playoff contender is very thin and very easy to move during the season. I think Oakland proved that this season. No one expected them to be even competitive this season, let a long make the playoffs.

As for ticket prices, it’s not just stub hub. The fact of the matter is tickets on the secondary markets can be had for cheap. And the Mets know it. So I’m not sure what you are complaining about. How can you say you’ve lost disinterest because of high ticket prices when secondary market prices are so low?

And, if he was referring specifically to Reyes during that press conference in February of 2011 and if NOT HAVING THE MONEY WAS NOT THE ISSUE WITH JOSE, then why did he later on contest the Mets knew they could not meet his asking price EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 2011 SEASON (those informal conversations with Jose’s agent, remember?) when the team had exclusive negotiating rights and long before Miami ever came into the situation? Does that mean Sandy did not have an idea of the market value Jose had coming into the final year of his contract when he made that statement?

Wow. I’m having trouble understanding exactly what you’re trying to say. But let me try to reply anyway. The statement was made in the NYT’s article you linked to, right? It was said in the context of the upcoming Reyes extension. From what I understand, they did not want to extend him at the beginning of the season because they wanted to see him play for themselves. Alderson & Co. had never seen him play before for an extended period of time since this was their first year. So they wanted to get a feel for themselves. Then a few months into the season, they approached Reyes about an extension but he said he wanted to test the market. The Mets wanted to keep Reyes, but at their price which was pretty generous (around 100 million) so that’s why they didn’t trade him mid-season. They never thought anyone would go over 100 million but crazy Loria did. So they wanted to sign Reyes but were outbid. It was not that they couldn’t afford to pay more. It was that they didn’t think it was wise to overpay and go higher. And I think they made the right choice.

Alderson never said they didn’t have the money to sign Reyes. Never read that anywhere. Their intention was to sign Reyes but they were outbid. It happens. It happened to the Angels with Greinke. It happened to Texas with Hamilton. It happens all the time with teams.

And the money did go back into improving the club. They did spend money last winter but Alderson made bad bullpen moves.

You still don’t think financial considerations dominated all that thinking?

They did to the extent that they thought it would be grossly overpaying Reyes to go much higher. Every team puts a limit on how much they will pay someone. If they don’t go over the limit, it doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have the money to do it. It sometimes means they made a business decision that it was TOO RISKY to do it.

Don’t forget a month or so ago I provided a financial breakdown of how much the Mets actually spent after ridding themselves of the Beltran …

Are you mistaking me with someone else? I haven’t been posting here long and wasn’t here when you posted your breakdown. Provide a link and then we can discuss. But initially I will say that I don’t recall Alderson saying he would put the money meant for Reyes back into the team. And how would you suggest they should have used it last winter?

I don’t mind CAPS, and use them myself. What I don’t like is the entire post in all caps, and there seems to be someone here that does that. I don’t even bother trying to read such posts.

Ike Davis, came up in 2010, 2011 started off well until injury but still 2012 was a struggle – two or three years. Lucas Duda broke in nicely in 2011and struggled in 2012 – two years. Jonathon Niese had his breakout year in 2012 after being called up in 2010 – two years. Dillon Gee has had two nice seasons to date but has still been inconsistent – two years. Bobby Parnell had a good sophomore year followed by decent 2011 and after a shaky start, a very good 2012 – four years. Johann Santana only came into his own in 2002 – his third year in the majors – three years.

So it doesn’t happen over night. I just named five (Santana being a veteran and only used to prove that point) and only one as of yet has developed into the key player one builds upon. The other four have shown to be good players with hopeful futures but have not developed into proficient major leaguers in two, three or four seasons – maybe this season will be their year. But the point is it that for most it takes a few seasons to establish themselves – the Bryce Harpers, Heywards, Strausbergs, etc. are the exceptions and not the rule. So to count on so many from the farm system to produce so quickly is unrealistic and that was not Sandy was saying. There is a difference between being competitive and being a playoff contender and that was the distinction even Sandy was saying.

And what does Stub Hub have anything to do with the way a team sets it’s ticket prices? Those setting the ticket prices on the secondary market are not the teams but the ticket holders who already purchased that seats and are now trying to sell them off. And just like the Mets, the Dodgers and Giants have to contend with the secondary market as well. So they all are in the same boat.

Finally, one cannot dismiss what Sandy said in Oakland and think he has since changed his line of thinking based on his public discussions on what the Mets can and cannot do in their financial situation and his actions taken throughout the organization – not just the payroll. And, if he was referring specifically to Reyes during that press conference in February of 2011 and if NOT HAVING THE MONEY WAS NOT THE ISSUE WITH JOSE, then why did he later on contest the Mets knew they could not meet his asking price EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 2011 SEASON (those informal conversations with Jose’s agent, remember?) when the team had exclusive negotiating rights and long before Miami ever came into the situation? Does that mean Sandy did not have an idea of the market value Jose had coming into the final year of his contract when he made that statement?

Remember, at first he was saying the Mets HAD the money to spend on Jose Reyes if they wanted to then later changed his story to saying that the Mets DID NOT HAVE the money to spend on Jose all along. So what is the truth? If they had the money why did Sandy say they later didn’t? If Sandy felt Jose wasn’t in the best interests in the Mets in the future, why did he say re-signing Jose was a priority? And finally, IF THE METS HAD THE MONEY TO RE-SIGN JOSE BUT DIDN’T WANT TO, THEN WHY WASN’T THAT MONEY NOT USED IN OTHER WAYS TO IMPROVE THE CLUB INSTEAD OF GOING BACK INTO THE COMPANY’S RESERVES? You still don’t think financial considerations dominated all that thinking? Don’t forget a month or so ago I provided a financial breakdown of how much the Mets actually spent after ridding themselves of the Beltran, Castillo and Perez contracts that were a part of the 2011 payroll. That even with the signings of Francisco, Rauch and a few others that along with the increased salaries to Wright, Santana and others their spending was flat – that they did not spend around the $12 million extra that they would have used for Jose.

Sorry for the CAPS – was not meant to shout as it was to emphasize that what you theorized did not reflect what had indeed occurred.

Ciao

He never said 2015 was the date we’d have to wait to be competitive. He never even said 2014. He wants it now, but he’s realistic knowing that some of the kids may take time to develop.

Here is a reasonable timetable for some of the kids in terms of successful ML performance:

Harvey- – 2013-2014
Wheeler — 2013-2014
d’Arnaud — 2013-2014
Syndergaard — 2014-2015

So I certainly think, based on this, that by the end of this year — and certainly by 2014 — the Mets can be competitive with their kids playing significant roles too.

And I’m not sure how the Dodgers and Giants ticket prices are terribly relevant because 1) All last season you could get dirt cheap Mets tickets on the secondary market. Heck, they were even giving away free tickets last year. And cheap secondary market tickets have been available for almost every year since Citi opened. 2) Part of the cost of Mets tickets is going to pay back the debt service for the new stadium. The Dodgers and the Giants are not currently dealing with these expenses. So they don’t have to price their tickets so high. Having said that, don’t be surprised if there is a big rise in the cost of Dodgers tickets in 2013.

And please don’t keep citing Alderson and his actions in Oakland. Different era. Different team. Different city and fan base. Different economics. Different circumstances. And even Alderson as a baseball executives is probably changed. I won’t read anything of his Oakland days because the relevancy is highly questionable.

He also said that the Madoff situation had no effect on his operations – that was three months after he took the job – not beforehand. It had no bearing on his decision to re-sign players or go after free agents.

As we discussed that statement was made specifically within the context of resigning Reyes after the 2011 season. He was not talking about the budget he was alloted that winter, which was minimal. He had very little to work with that winter. Peanuts really.

So Sandy knew what he could and couldn’t do and yet made public statements to the contrary.

Uh, no. I thought we went over this. Basically for the first few years he was working in a rapidly changing economic (and legal!) environment. What he said one month may not have been true 5 months later when the financial condition worsened. So of course he’d have to say something different. We discussed this — like how he had to revise the projected 2012 budget during the 2011 season, saying something to the effect “when ownership pushes back, well then we have to change course.”

So I look at the same things and I am NOT seeing a pattern of lying as you say you do. At times Alderson is very careful with his words — very guarded — but he’;s being a GM then, and can’t be totally candid. But as for outright deception and lying? Sorry, I just don’t see it.

Yes, re-building might have been the only option avaiable to Sandy and the Mets but how much priority is toward that than it is the ledger book?

Don’t know what you are really asking. Please explain.

And how much does the high cost of a roster payroll have to really be passed on to the ticket holders? Those on the west coast certainly don’t have to pay what Met fans are being told to.

Again, I don’t understand your point. Someone has to pay for the payroll. If it doesn’t come from ticket sales, it comes from other revenue — like broadcasting fees. And not sure what you are trying to say about West Coast fans. If you live in SF, for example, and have the Mets on cable, you are certainly paying for them through higher cable costs.

Throwing 80 MPH is NOT throwing hard in fact most guys 38 can throw 80 MPH well into thier 40′s and 50′s….

Throwing 80 MPH does not put wear and tear on the arm at all….

What DOES hurt an arm is wrist snapping and arm twisting to GET spin mechanics and enough spin to make the ball move….

Thats what hurts elbows and stresses arms, not the 80MPH.

A Knuckleballer DOES NOT use spin mechanics he tries to get NO spin whatsoever….

and THATS why they can pitch well into thier 40′s because thier pitch STILL works at 80MPH and 70MPH and even as low as 60 MPH!

This is why we keep ignoring all of you who mention this HARD Knuckler because mentioning it makes it obvious that you guys have no clue as to what makes an arm go bad….

Only the future looks good now for Toronto while Mets wait on “development” of acquired “prospects”.

In addition, we will have solid defense and hitting coming from behind the plate which might result in more than 20 wins for the team. Our knuckleball catching defenders behind the plate were not really notable for anything. . .weak hitters and weak defenders, actually.

We are going to see a much improved team in 2013 is my guess, unless the Mayans were right.

The point Sandy was trying to make was about being competitors. We can still be a competitive team – as he put it to why he didn’t trade Hairston after we had fallen out of the race. He talked in terms of the kids developing and being ready to play. We both know that is going to take time – two more seasons with the kids getting their feet wet – the kids that are supposed to fill in the missing pieces to the puzzle – is not unreasonable. They are going to have to take their lumps – and that is so often relfected in the so-called “sophmore jinx” So anything earlier than 2015 would be unrealisitic with the path this team has pursued.

As far as ticket prices, the highest price for a single ticket for the Dodgers last season went for $80 That’s for field level. And we all know about them losing attendance and also going bankrupt. And those ticket prices coincided with a roster payroll the same as the Mets.

And if you want, compare the cost of tickets for 2013 for the world series champion Giants compared to the Mets. Last season the Giants had the seventh highest payroll in the majors and check out their pricing for this year – which is also based on dynamic pricing. I think you can see quite a difference with affordable seats in good locations even on the more expensive days through June.

It’s cheaper to see a Giant game than it is a Met game. It was cheaper to see a Dodger game last season. And both cities have a high cost of living like New York City.

Finally, we both agree the Mets did not have money to spend. I’ve also documented where Sandy Alderson said trades are no longer based on talent. He used poor projected attendance figures to justify why he couldn’t re-sign Marc McGwire and thus sent him off to St. Louis for two obscure minor league players. He also said that the Madoff situation had no effect on his operations – that was three months after he took the job – not beforehand. It had no bearing on his decision to re-sign players or go after free agents.

Yes, as we all know now he said the Madoff situation did affect the organization and that teams can’t pursue expensive players when losing $70 million a year. And as the Mets have claimed, they had been losing money ever since 2009. So Sandy knew what he could and couldn’t do and yet made public statements to the contrary. We’ve also seen him slash operations throughout the franchise and that includes the minor leagues. So it becomes a matter of trusting him even when he talks about his plans are for re-building.

Remember, one must go to the actual facts and the actions instead of the words. Yes, re-building might have been the only option avaiable to Sandy and the Mets but how much priority is toward that than it is the ledger book? And how much does the high cost of a roster payroll have to really be passed on to the ticket holders? Those on the west coast certainly don’t have to pay what Met fans are being told to.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_/id/7145121/los-angeles-dodgers-slashing-season-ticket-prices-2012

http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/salaries/_/name/lad/los-angeles-dodgers

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/ticketing/dynamic_pricing.jsp?c_id=sf&y=2013&layout=gameflow#date=05/30/2013

If we were not going to be competitive enough WITH Dickey in 2014….
Then what about THIS trade has made us more competitive WITHOUT Dickey in 2014?
Even 2015? I’ll even entertain 2016….

Please tell me why d’Arnaud without a Cy Young Pitcher makes us better faster than we would be with a Cy Young Pitcher?

This is just bad excuses being made not any reality that can be pointed out…
We didn’t get better or increase our chances of winning sooner…
We just got younger which means you might be able to compete LATER (not sooner) than we could have if we just kept Dickey and built around him!

I want to get back to something we discussed the other day — Alderson’s timetable. Well I went back into the FAN archives and found an interview he did earlier this month, and he never said the Mets wouldn’t be competitive until 2015. And he repeatedly says he is not punting the current season.

I think what he would admit to is that there is a timetable for when a lot of the newer prospects like Wheeler and Syndergaard might be ready to fully contribute at the ML level. But that’s because Alderson chose to build from within and through the farm system. And this is not totally by choice, given the Mets’ woeful finances when he took over. The only other option is to do it by free agency. Which is expensive and raises costs. And then what happens is ticket prices get even more expensive — one of the very things you say you hate about the current Mets.

Whether Alderson’s strategy works remains to be seen. But ultimately, it’s the most cost-effective one.

Here’s the link to that Alderson interview on the FAN. He talks about the timetable in the second half of the interview:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio/19-mike-francesa/sandy-alderson-with-mike-francesa/

To add to that list, Eddie Ciotti (not in the Hall because he participated in the black sox scandal), Wilbur Wood and Dutch Leonard.

Perhaps it was irreverent humor, something many of us all guilty of saying in private yet in no way is reflective of how we truly feel. And perhaps because he is young he didn’t realize those type of comments should be kept private and not out there for everyone to see.

I’ll give him a pass on this one because his youth might not have enabled him to know when and where those jokes should be made.

As mentioned, this goes way beyond R.A. but back to the shift in values this organization had publicly began personifying from the day it handled firing Willie Randolph, to when it began spitting on the average fan with those high ticket prices and forgetting they deserve some ammenties at a ball park as well, to the manner in which they wouldn’t even let David Wright wear a cap in the dugout in honor and memory of those who had fallen on 9/11 on through to the smear tactics they use through leaks to the press.

That’s just me, of course. Had the organization been reflective of a differrent set of ethical standards then I would probably feel bad but accept the Dickey trade. But of course, had the organization had a different set of ethics, there might not have been any Dickey trade at all.

Again, it’s just me but I feel principles have to stand for something in the way one sees things. PLEASE DON’T TAKE THAT TO INFER THAT OTHERS DON’T SHARE THE SAME PRINCIPLES THAT I DO – it just means I might be more idealistic than willing to accept the real world at least as the Mets are concerned. That’s why probably most others can still get the enjoyment and pleasure from the Mets that I no longer can. That’s the price I have to pay for me being me.

Capuano, Young, Hairston.

All role players, all guys given low money deals on a whim, all out produced their expectations.

So, let me ask you, which is worse, when your back up late inning defensive replacement on a minor league contract (Hu) busts, or when your big money, long term deal, cemented starting left fielder(Bay) busts?

The fact is, we don’t know. To say one way or the other with any sort of conviction is foolish.