27
2012
The Evolution Of A Mets Championship Team
An article by 
There seems to be a lot buzz in our comment threads lately about former Mets GM Frank Cashen, who many fans, rightfully so, look to as the standard bearer when it comes to building a championship. While doing a search I came across a post about the evolution of the 1986 Mets that Newsday had posted back in 2010.
The following shows exactly how all the players from the Mets post season roster that year came to be acquired.
I broke it down to further illustrate how Cashen didn’t solely rely upon hoarding prospects as his means to an end. They surely helped, but had it not been for the trades that brought in many stars of their time, 1986 may have never happened.
Lets get to the list which I present in chronological order. The first three players were acquired before Frank Cashen was named general manager.
Essentially the team he inherited already had what would be his starting second baseman and center fielder, and his closer.
The Evolution of the 1986 Mets
June, 1977
Wally Backman, 2B: Drafted in first round
Mookie Wilson, LF: Drafted in second round
Dec. 8, 1978
Jesse Orosco, RP: Traded from Twins Feb. 7, 1979 to complete trade for Jerry Koosman
June, 1980
Darryl Strawberry, RF: Drafted in first round
June 10, 1980
Doug Sisk, RP: Signed as amateur free agent
November 1980
Kevin Mitchell, OF/INF: Signed as an amateur free agent
June 1981
Lenny Dykstra, OF: Drafted in 13th round
April 1, 1982
Ron Darling, SP: Traded from Rangers with Walt Terrell for Lee Mazzilli
June 1982
Dwight Gooden, SP: Drafted in first round
Roger McDowell: Drafted in third round
Dec. 10, 1982
Danny Heep: Traded from Astros for Mike Scott
Feb. 3, 1983
Ed Hearn: Signed as a free agent
June, 1983
Rick Aguilera: Drafted in third round
June 15, 1983
Keith Hernandez: Traded from Cardinals for Neil Allen and Rick Ownbey
Dec. 8, 1983
Sid Fernandez: Traded from Dodgers with Ross Jones for Bob Bailor and Carlos Diaz
1984
Davey Johnson becomes manager
Jan. 17, 1984
Rafael Santana: Signed as a free agent
June, 1984
Kevin Elster: Drafted in second round
June 15, 1984
Bruce Berenyi: Traded from Reds for Matt Bullinger, Jay Tibbs, Eddie Williams June
Dec. 7, 1984
Howard Johnson: Traded from Tigers for Walt Terrell
Dec. 10, 1984
Gary Carter: Traded from Expos for Hubie Brooks, Mike Fitzgerald, Herm Winningham and Floyd Youmans
March 30, 1985
Randy Niemann: Traded from White Sox for minor leaguers Gene Autry and Ken Reed
Nov. 13, 1985
Bob Ojeda: Traded from Red Sox with Chris Bayer, Tom McCarthy and John Mitchell for John Christensen, Wes Gardner, Calvin Schiraldi and LaSchelle Tarver
Jan. 16, 1986
Tim Teufel: Traded by Twins with Matt Crosby for Billy Beane, Joe Klink and Bill Latham
Aug. 3, 1986
Lee Mazzilli: Signed as a free agent (originally drafted in first round, 1973)
Of the 24 championship players here is the breakdown:
- Three players (Jesse Orosco, Wally Backman, Mookie Wilson) were inherited.
- Five were drafted in the first three rounds. (Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Roger McDowell, Rick Aguilera, Kevin Elster)
- One was drafted in the late rounds. (Lenny Dykstra, 13th Round)
- Two were signed as amateur free agents. (Kevin Mitchell, Doug Sisk)
- Three were signed as MLB free agents. (Rafael Santana, Ed Hearn, Lee Mazzilli)
- Ten players were acquired in trades, many of which included the Mets top prospects. (Tim Teufel, Sid Fernandez, Bruce Berenyi, Danny Heep, Bob Ojeda, Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez, Howard Johnson, Randy Niemann, Ron Darling)
One of Frank Cashen’s first signature move after being named GM, was to trade for Reds’ All Star George Foster and then sign him to what was at the time the richest contract in baseball. Foster would be released in mid season during 1986 after making some inflammatory remarks about the front office, and was immediately replaced by longtime fan favorite Lee Mazzilli.
Sadly, the dynasty Cashen was hoping for never materialized and within two years he began dismantling the championship team he had built. Ray Knight, Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez, Lenny Dykstra, Mookie Wilson and Roger McDowell were either traded or released. Frank Viola was brought in along with Juan Samuel, and Gregg Jefferies was going to be the new face of the franchise. But just five years after that famous trickler down the first base line, and after a dismal fifth place finish, Cashen stepped down as GM of the Mets and was replaced by Al Harazin.
25 years later, Frank Cashen was inducted into the Mets Hall of Fame on August 1, 2010 along with his manager Davey Johnson, and his two top draft picks; Dwight Gooden, and Darryl Strawberry.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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I know 1986 is our last championship, so it’s our benchmark, but…would a better study be how the last say 5-10 championship teams have built their winners?? Though I think the main argument here works – you have to do more than just hoard prospects and hope for the best – however, I think that looking at how championship teams are presently constructed could possibly tell us even more.
If only we would have just traded Doc Gooden and Darryl Strawberry for some proven players.
Joe glad you posted this but I think it should be noted that Brooks was also inherited and without him you do not get Carter.
Brooks was taken 3rd overall in 78…
One of the 7 Top 10 overall picks Cashen utilized to build the 86ers
Mazz was also inherited and key to getting Darling and eventually HoJo.
I know your list was meant to just show origins of the 86ers themselves but it does need to be mentioned just how important the LOSING WHOLESALE was to giving Cashen what he needed to make the 5 year turnaround.
People think it’s only going to take Sandy 5 years because of Cashen but the truth is it took 9 years from 77-86 to rebuild the 86ers and in the end they won only ONE World Series.
Wrong Metsie…. And you know it…
Specify please….
Metsie, cashen had NOTHING to work with.. No good farm system, no all stars in the roster, the team was in total chaos. in comes cashen and he had a vision, a plan of what he was gonna do. by year 2 of his tenure he knew what players to trade and which players to sign, while his FA signing were not perfect, he knew when to rid of mal content, he made one of the gutsies trade in brining in hernandez. who you and me know was not 100% happy with the trade, he didn’t wanna come to a losing team, but the trade was made nonetheless, and guess what, he BROUGHT in his winning attitude and persona to rub on the young mets (beyond me how MMO did not recognize this man to their HOF ahead of certain choker), cashen knew he needed someone with leadership and championship experience to guide this team to win, and guess what? By 1984 the mets were contenders, and if you would’ve had this format, the mets would’ve made the playoffs at least 7 straight years. i am not sure how anyone can compare this pathetic and embarrassing era with cashen’s. the man was trying to win and had a plan, you don’t build up with young players only, you gotta have veteran present in the clubhouse, cashen did all the right moves because HE WANTED TO WIN. unlike some guy who from the get go stumble his way to not knowing which team had hired him in the first place. Do not say it took cashen or the mets 9 years to built that team, in 3 years cashen knew exactly what pieces he needed for 1984 and made the moves necesaries to create a juggernaut who unfortunately only won 1 WS but the playoffs formart had a lot to do with that…
I guess you missed the main point of my post….
Cashen greatest inheritance was not in players but in a LAST PLACE TEAM that netted him all those top 5 Draft picks without whom no amount of Mazzilli or Brooks trades would have gotten us to what 86 became.
As I have always said the key to a rebuild that can last (Homegrowns) is long term losing and all the top overall picks that come with it.
As for the Farm he had you can’t say Brooks, Backman and Mookie were not at least as good as Flores, Tejada and Murphy…Flores with the outside chance of being the best of all names in those lists…
Point is I agree to SOME degree that Cashen didn’t have a lot to work with OTHER than those top 5 Overall and 12 1st rounder (7 post top 5) picks that MAKE a farm possible.
Sandy isn’t close to that yet as he is still trying to get where Grant put us before he could start (if he even intends to start) on Cashens method for rebuilding….
What I was mainly trying to get accross is we haven’t even gotten to the part where Cashen implemented a plan, we are still doing the setup work Grant did for Cashen.
Maybe if we traded everyone away in a single year the way Grant did in 77 we would be there today.
But we didn’t which is why even if Sandy WANTED to do what Cashen did and turn us around in 5 years….
That 5 year clock won’t start until next year the earliest!
Which means if the Cashen plan is in play don’t expect to win until 2018 the earliest!
That said I felt we should not have tried to do a rebuild we were not that far away….
Better to keep and add to what we had to win while we rebuilt the minors via draft and trades when a kid made a vet expendable…
We didn’t do that and that was mistake #1…
Mistake #2 was if you wanted to rebuild should have purged all at once…
Mistake #3 is thinking the Dickey trade was enough to say the team IS rebuilt!
Sandy had the wrong plan to start and even if he has managed to put the team into a position where rebuild is smart he took so long that he will never live long enough to see the plan through.
He needs to win either this year or next or he’s gone! And I am not even sure he will get all of next year to succeed because after this offseason if they don’t win more than 80 games they will call for his head on a platter.
I know Brooks was inherited but the summary was of the players who were on the post season roster. Many of the players traded were inherited including Mazzilli who was key to Darling trade.
I did acknowledge that….
Just saying that mst of the work that let Cashen do it in 5 was done in the two years before he even got here…
He started off with the top overall pick that became Strawberry. No thanks to his plan but due to Grants plan…
Since he could not possibly do enough to change the team in a year (thats what they say about Sandy) he also got the top 5 Overall pick the following year that got him Gooden.
So those two picks were the KEY picks that made 86 and 5 years work. And none of them had anything to do with Cashen’s plan but what team he inherited.
A Team that already had Mazz and Brooks to trade.
I say Sandy is still working under Grant’s part of that success which means 5 years from now (if he gets top overall pick or top 5 the next two years) he might be able to implement Cashens plan.
If they had the same playoff format in the 80′s those teams would have went to the playoffs every year from 84-89. You may notice the only FA was Maz who was released by the pirates just before. The first significant trade was Keith in 83. That was year 4 of Cashens reign. There will be significant additions of star players when the team is ready to contend, which will be 2014.
LMAO
and who are we going to pick up in 2014 for the OF?
I wish I could laugh as much as you do. Who knows? maybe valdy, kirk and Duda will be great then SA can spend the money on Cano
Cashen didnt have a team already loaded with All Star players like Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Santana, and quality guys in Niese, Dickey, Pagan and Ike Davis already on board. He got a team that was literally bottom of the barrel players.
Compare the two teams:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/1979.shtml 99 losses
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2010.shtml 83 losses
And Cashen didnt inherit a pitcher like Harvey either
or a mandate to cut $50 million in payroll.
Hey it’s you guys who say not spending money is a good thing not the rest of us….
Who is you guys and when did they say that?
I have no issue with spending money wisely. Running out to get any big name to sell tickets in December is not spending wisely. Locking a 30 year old down for 7 years because it will increase this year’s season ticket sales is not spending wisely.
If the Mets had a good young core and solid support players and a season or 2 of near 90 wins under their belts, I’d be all for getting a high priced free agent to put them over the top. But that isn’t the case. It may soon be, but not today. You build with free agents, not around them.
There’s no point in making a cathedral ceiling if you haven’t even poured the foundation.
Yawn…..
Ok I’m going to call your bluff….
NAME A PLAYER you would have spent money on this year then tell us why you think Sandy was NOT smart for not spending it….
BJ Upton. I wanted him even before he signed a deal with Atlanta for way less than I thought he’d get.
I can’t really say whether or not it would have been smart to sign him. I’m not privy to the plans of the front office. I do believe, however, he would have been a good fit here and filled a couple needs.
HAHAHAHAHA CLASSIC!
Your not privy to the plan but you LOVE IT!
What are you David Wright or something?
So you think spending on Upton would have been money well spent yet you can’t knock Sandy for not signing him and you cite IGNORANCE as your excuse….
Why am I not shocked….
What do we need around here? A Power Hitting RH Batter who can play OF?
Was he not the PERFECT signing to get right now?
But you can’t bring yourself to suggest Sandy blew it by not paying what you say would be money well spent EVEN KNOWING that With Wright and Bay deferring money they had the money to spend…..
There is no hope for you until Sandy gets fired and takes the parts of him your head is currently stuck in with him!
Again, you are missing the point and lying.
He’s really the only guy that I wanted. I accept, however, that maybe the Mets aren’t ready to go and make a deal like that right now. they aren’t one guy from going over the top. I just think he wouldn’t have been the disaster someone like Josh Hamilton or Shane Victorino can potentially be.
True.
Spending is fine. A 150 million payroll is fine. However, only if a foundation is in place that is going to lead to a run of sustained winning – which unfortunately hasn ‘t been there for most of the past 20+ years.
You mean like the sustained winning of 2006-2008?
Was there a World Series parade I missed?
He didn’t say world series he said sustained winning…
You know like that success of Oakland you love to cite when Sandy’s greatness is brought up?
You know the ONLY WS he has EVER won despite how many teams he has implemented his PLAN with?
Again, lying to support an untenable position. Tsk tsk tsk.
Here’s the difference between the 2 GM and how they introduced themselves:
“I can’t tell you when are we going to win the pennant, I think we’re going to win the pennant, if I didn’t have this feeling I would not have taken the job.”
–Frank Cashen during Mets press conference after he was hired as General Manager in January 1980
“I view the position as general manager of the Oakland … of the, excuse me, the New York Mets as really the best job available in baseball, not only now but for the foreseeable future,”
Sandy Alderson at his press conference.
That should sum it all up… One had a vision and a plan, the other still living in the past days of his glory days in Oakland. If that didn’t spell mediocrity from the get go, not sure what else was gonna… Oh, wait..
And what is worse is he still seems to operate as if the 1980 Market prices are still valid…
As I have always said this guy is living in the 90′s where what he believed was not being believed by a majority of the league…
They all have spreadsheets now and any advantage he might have had in the late 80′s early 90′s is gone….
The game has passed this guy by!
“I view the position as general manager of the Oakland … of the, excuse me, the New York Mets as really the best job available in baseball, not only now but for the foreseeable future,”
But he speaks English so well….
One important note, unlike Alderson, Cashen always took the best player on the board when he drafted. He didnt play guessing games using unrealistic stats and a personal think tank to project which 17 year old would have a higher ceiling ten years down the road. Cashen was a great talent evaluator like Minaya. He also wasnt gun shy about trading prospects for what Met fans today call overpaid stars. Alderson’s only world series came with MLB’s third highest payroll. He never built anything on the cheap, that is just a myth. We have three GMs who were responsible for the rock bottom years of the Padres, Blue Jays and Dodgers during their time there. Add the Mets to that list.
By the way Darling, Fernández and HoJo were acquired as prospects. Same for David Cone a couple of years. So technically they are comparable to Wheeler, Syndergaard or D’Arnaud in terms of their origin.
Of course a key difference between Cashen & Alderson’s situation is that Cashen didn’t face financial restrictions or an ownership fighting bancrupcy and facing a billion dollar lawsuit. Cashen didn’t have to cut costs by 50 %. That should offset inheriting a better major league roster, featuring All Stars like Beltran, Santana, KRod or Bay, making a combined 70 million $ while providing 30 million $ caliber production in 2010 and 2011 respectively.
“technically they are comparable to Wheeler, Syndergaard or D’Arnaud in terms of their origin. ”
But not ACTUALLY until they get on the MLB squad and produce which no one can guarantee….
And Cone was an MLB player not a Prospect.
Fernandez was traded in December of 83 and was a starter in 84…Not a prospect in the sense that he spent any time in our farm like the other guys you mentioned.
Hojo was Acquired in 84 and was on the MLB Roster the next year.
SO of ALL the names you mentioned only DARLING was a prospect that had to go to the Minors before he made the MLB roster….
All the rest HAD MLB playing time and were used immediatly after they were acquired!
And that means only ONE was an actual prospect and the rest were all trades OF prospects or marginal talent for MLB READY talent.
Sorry but nice try in telling a fairy tale.
#BANGBANGBANG But not ACTUALLY until they get on the MLB squad and produce which no one can guarantee….
Once again Metsie you mislead the facts. Fernandez did pitch in the minors in 1984. He starts as many games for the Tidewater Tides as he did for the Mets.
But that is okay, we are accustomed to you misappropriating the facts. D’Arneud will fit into the same mold so it is good to see you that no longer consider him a true prospect since he is like Sid.
No you mslead the facts he pitched for the Dodgers in 83!
He started 15 games in 84 or us….Thats about half a season for a MLB Pitcher….
SO please stop with this fairy tale crap already you think we trasded for prospect but Darling and Terrel were the only ones to spend any time in the Minors and played thier first MLB game for the Mets….
Unlike every other kid you guys keep pinning your Sandy dreams on….
Nice breakdown. Anyone that knows about 86 should know that Cashen didn’t just hoard picks and if they did this breakdown clearly shows otherwise. As far as our current Mets team I am seeing the growth & development of some young players some that already are in the majors and some on the cusp to arriving that with the right pieces added around them and some luck have a chance as a whole to be something greater. Now can and will the Mets be able to add the right pieces if some of these young players start coming into their own only time will tell.
Cashan made trades that helped build a championship team only after the two top prospects had graduated and started to flourish.
Why start trading prospects now when there’s over 50 million invested in 3 borderline unproductive players? I couldn’t disagree more with you and it seems to me that you completely disagree with the Mets direction at this point. I can’t understand how anyone, knowing the Mets can’t afford any real difference makers this year, still are clammoring for Sandy to just trade away prospects or sign anyone; regardless of it helping the mets not just now but in the future.
He’s trying to build a sustainable winner at a price that the Mets can afford now and in the future while also building a farm system that’s able to feed that team. He’s almost there.
Who are you addressing this comment to, me? I wrote a historical post that mentioned nothing about the current direction or front office. It was intended to show how the process worked the last time we won a championship. We’ve had six GM’s try their hand at it since that time without success. You seem to be seeing things that are not there. Don’t be so negative all the time and assume things that are not there. That said, I’m not as sold on this front office like you are, and I believe I’ve seen many more Mets GM’s than you have so I may be more qualified to judge than you are. BTW, the name is Cashen, not Cashan.
Well D’Arnaud also should be in the majors quickly and Walt Terrell, ie the young pitcher traded for HoJo also was acquired as a prospect.
Obviously, times have changed over the past 30 years and while the general idea is similar, circumstances & details are quite different.
And btw, you know what’s quite comparable to getting Top 10 overall draft picks ?
Trading for Top 50 overall prospects !
Hope and Prayer, Wish and Dream…Is this really allyou got?
d’Arnaud SHOULD be but probably isn’t. Didn’t you hear when God spoke and said he will likely start off in AAA to get used to the ptichers and get his injured legs back under him?
Or were you too Busy bowing in prayer to the GOD to listen when he was speaking?
Terrel is an example of a prospect GOING OUT FOR MLB TALENT….
Name the move Sandy has made that is even similar!
Beato for Shoppach? I mean really thats the ONLY case where a Kid went out here.
Having kids to trade is sort of useless unless your willing to trade them isn’t it?
When One of these kids you have collected get you Hojo, Darling, Fernandez or Cone come back and see me….
When one of these kids makes up and does more than Reyes, Beltran, Dickey and K-Rod come back then as well….
SO far you have gotten nothing of MLB consequence and merely made a nice listing in BA’s prospect list…
The one F-Mart was top of the charts in for years….
Where is he now?
and what did Sandy get for HIS HIGH ceiling?
“Didn’t you hear when God spoke and said he will likely start off in AAA to get used to the ptichers and get his injured legs back under him?”
I had no idea the Almighty was a baseball fan, but he sure doesn’t know the arbitration rules.
d’Arnaud can’t be put on the 40 many roster for a few weeks or his arbitration clock is retroactively activated.
“When One of these kids you have collected get you Hojo, Darling, Fernandez or Cone come back and see me….”
I bet you have no idea why that statement is funny.
Oh money instead f baseball again?
What difference would it make if he hits FA a year early anyway?
By that time Sandy is going to trade him for something 4 years from now as the Good Book Bible (Moneyball) says you should!
And you know you worship Sandy as your God!
That is when your not praying to a bottle of scotch or the porcelin altar!
“Oh money instead f baseball again?”
They are intertwined. The sooner you accept this, the sooner we can move on with your learning.
“What difference would it make if he hits FA a year early anyway?”
Who is to say, but wouldn’t you like to have that insurance?
“By that time Sandy is going to trade him for something 4 years from now as the Good Book Bible (Moneyball) says you should!
And you know you worship Sandy as your God!
That is when your not praying to a bottle of scotch or the porcelin altar!”
Did someone replace your lithium with Flintstones Chewables again?
And the sooner you accept the Yankees exist, spend and WIN and prove all your THEORIES as wrong, the better we can proceed with you graduating from Baseball Kindergarten and Advance Face Painting class!
You mean the Yankees recent runs don’t prove the value of a young home grown core? Or are you claiming it proves that baseball and money are not intertwined?
I’m just curious.
Nope not when less then a Quarter of thier starters are home grown it doesn’t….
Let review Cano and Jeter are homegrown….Who else? Nova @ 12-8?
Pettite @ 5-4
I mean really now I didn’t think even YOU were that stupid to try and suggest their recent success has anything to do with Homegrown…..
When they won their World Series, their core was home grown. Paul O’Neil was acquired for Roberto Kelly, another home grown guy.
They won because Gene Michael was able to grow the team’s core and then Bob Watson and Brian Cashman brought in pieces to put them over the top.
You mean the kids made the team that made it to the LDS the year before without them was what won them the WS and not the guys around them that got that far before they played regularly?
Tell me Do they win a WS without the following?
Joe Girardi
Mariano Duncan
Wade Boggs
Paul O’Neil
Tim Raines
Darryl Strawberry
Kenny Rodgers
Dwight Gooden
Jimmy Key
David Cone
Hmmm They aren’t the reason they won a WS it was those Four kids who did it ALL!!!
Yep and Santa came from the North Pole and put stuff under your tree….
Next year Ask Santa for a brain!
I didn’t say they did it all, but they were the anchor. If the Yankees hadn’t started there, the rest is just spending to spend.
Besides, most of those guys were just role players. You really are going to tell me Strawberry brought more to that team than Bernie Williams? Or that Kenny Rogers’ 4.68 ERA did more for the Yankees in 1996 than Andy Pettitte?
They hardly played so how thehell dd thy anchor anything…
It was all that Free Agent Pitchng that anchored them and allowed those kids to play in a pressure free enviornment as they were not tasked with carrying the team the way You suggested plan of Sandys does with ours.
Anyone who says they anchored the Yankees is just living in fantasy land, All they did was fill 2 or 3 positions that didn’t require expensive free agents to fill…
And yet they STILL spent 50mil more than we did at our highest which is why they won as much as they have!
They don’t CRY over a spilt milk of 80Mil over 5 years…They merely admit the mistake, replace him and move on. And they find teams to take those failures from them many times as they did with Burnett!
Thats the last I’m saying to you today, I am ignoring any other posts that start off with Donal…Find someone else to play with to make up for the fact you were bullied as a kid and restore your self esteem.
Jeter 157 games
Williams 143 games
Rivera 61 appearances
Pettitte 34 starts
Ya, hardly played.
1998
Jeter 149 games
Williams 128 games
Posada 111 games
Pettitte 33 games
Rivera 54 games
Ya, hardly played
Again the Yankees sustained success is because they began with a young core and added on to it.
No add up all thier performance contributions and show what percentage of the team contribution it consists of….
I bet it’s even less than 25% of what that team did!
I loved that ’86 team, that ’86 season, the ’86 WS.
Cashen’s vision got us there. However, it didn’t keep us there. Start of ’87 saw Gooden in rehab and the breakdown of the SP staff due to injuries. The ’86 WS MVP was gone. The Wilpons idea of trading Kevin Mitchell backfired.
Fast forward to ’88 and yes, we made it to post season but couldn’t get past the Dodgers. A team we should have had no problem with, given the regular season record against them.
Fast forward 6 years to 1991 and we finish fifth with a losing season.
2006 was great. Fast forward 6 years and we finish 4th with a losing season.
Everyone on this board knows the ideal is not only to build that championship team, but maintain that championship franchise for years to come. Here’s hoping they’ll do just that this time.
And if not for a groundball getting by Buckner who is to say how that 86 series would of ended and history would of remembered that team.
This is true. Game was tied at that point so it’s anyone’s guess how that would have ended.
I’m still going with that ’86 team was The Team of Destiny and would have won regardless.
Agreed about the team of destiny. I also had the same feeling after the Endy catch but history wasn’t that kind to us Mets fans with that one.
I think Cashen did a great job building the team. He just wasn’t ready for the 80s. Too many off the field things changed.
Nice 80′s Porn Stache on Davey Johnson in that pic
Frank Cashen hired 1/80…Hernandez trade 6/83 = 41 month.
Alderson hired 10/10….41 months is 3/2014.
Please refrain from ignorant bashing until then.
Cashen hired in 80,
3 Months in…
Drafted Daryl Strawberry and Billy Beane (traded for Teufel)
24 Months after that (27 Months on the job) Drafted Dwight Gooden
Please refrain from putting Alderson in the same sentence as Cashen until he gets players as good as them in his first 27 Months of Employment….
I doubt you’ll have the patience for it – Straw made hs debut in 1983, i.e. Cashen’s 4th season and Gooden in 1984, Cashen’s 5th season.
Since 2013 will be Alderson’s 3rd season only, it appears we’ll have to wait for another couple of years.
A far more interesting question though:
Which of Cashen’s moves between 1980 and 1982 helped the Mets win more games during those years – and not only by 1984 when he was already in his 5th year on the job ?
The concept of rebuilding means that you look for pieces that figure to help in the future and not necessarily in the present.
By the way, Metsie, are you Steve Phillips ?
Drafting Strawbery and Gooden without haveing to give up a SINGLE GOOD PLAYER!
Those are the moves that won the most games no you tell us which move Alderson has made will have the same result?
The concept of rebuilding is to use what few kids you have plus high value draft picks….
Rebuilding only works if you are already the worst team in the league and have no where to go but up.
We were not the worst team in the league when Sandy took over but in two years with all thise fine moves he has made WILL be!
And then he will get fired so get the tissues ready for when he goes bye bye and you got no WS to show for it!
I couldn´t care less who the GM of the Mets is as long as he / she makes sound decisions.
So far, except for the Jose Reyes situation, Alderson´s decisions have generally been sound – especially if you consider the circumstances.
If Jon Daniels or Andrew Friedmann becomes Mets GM tomorrow, I´m absolutely fine with that. Or Walt Jocketty or Kevin Luhnow for that matter. Or John Mozielak.
However, I suppose you´re more in the Ned Colletti camp, i.e. a GM who can only do well when he can spend recklessly. Because if you don´t have any sort of budget, you can basically outspend your mistakes.
When the Mets were spending 70 + million of their 140 million $ budget on Francisco Rodriguez, Jason Bay, Oliver Perez, Johan Santana and Luis Castillo in 2011 and getting very little production, except for a decent closer and a decent platoon LF, obviously that problem could have been fixed by handing the GM another 30 million $ or so to spend on shortterm impact players to cover these past mistakes.
Up until this off-season, that has been the Yankees M.O. and it has worked out quite well. However, god (not Sandy!) beware that something changes – like this off-season when the Yankees haven´t had the money to hand out contracts to players under age 38 because of a sudden change of thinking by ownership due to future luxury tax concerns.
And speaking of World Series titles, how many of them do the Yankees have to show for their big spending ways over the past 12 seasons ? 2+ billion $ spent for one ring…
…of course, playoff success is tough to plan anyway.
I look at it this way:
Cashen started with nothing–NOTHING–and within 5 years we were a legitimate team.
Alderson came in with a good team and 3 years later has nothing.
In 5 years Cashen turned a last place team into a winner–a champion.
Does anyone see the Mets winning it all in 2014?
Actually it was his 6th year. He was hired in January 1980.
Well Rob wile I agreewith your intended sentiment the truth is BOTH started off with something….
Just that the something was very different….
Cashen had KIDS and a losing team that got him Draft Pick position and 12 1st round picks in 5 years.
So Cashen built via the Draft and used the kids he had to build the team. Even as far as trading some to get MLB players.
Alderson didn’t have the picks to do what Cashen did….But he did try to put the cart before the horse and sell off his MLB talent to make up for the lack of kids and high draft picks…
One built based on what he had…
The other built based on what he wanted to have but didn’t which is why Alderson will fail!
Because you can’t rebuild with what you don’t have you have to build with what you do and he should have kept on trying to get the team he had to win until such time as he had enough kids to try and build with.
Cashen knew the team was RIPE for a rebuild…
Alderson tried to will it into position and with all his boneheads move is almost ready to be in the position Cashen was when he took over in 1980….
A few kids gotten by trading beloved fan favorites and stars and a last place team that will be there for 3 or 4 years collecting top picks in the draft.
So three – four years more of being in last place and he will be ready to do what Cashen did…..
Too bad for the Sand People he has two at most….
Let us look at some of the infamous movies Cashen made in his first 24 months as Mets GM:
Frank Traveras-trade
Ellis Valentine-trade
Mike Cubbage-FA
Randy Jones-Trade
Dyer Miller-FA
Mike Marshall-FA
Charlie Puleo-Trade
Dave Roberts-FA
Claudell Washington-Trade
Sure seems like Frank was picking winners there. What was his plan? To pick up castoffs and never has beens who careers never were or were long gone? It sure seems that way in the first 24 months. If this site was around, Cashen would have been vilified. Too bad Cashen didnt sign Steve Kemp or Dave Collins when they had the chance and went cheap while the Yankees spend like champions.
Learn from facts and then learn from them. It will keep you from looking so ignorant.
Your the only one showing your ignorance….
First I guess you were not born or too young back then but Cashen took a LOT of heat for trades he made at the time…
You can’t find a link because the Web had not been invented yet….
Only you younguns put Cashen on this high pedestal that you do….
Most who were there and paying customers at the time thought he was competent but petulant as well….
And we mostly hated him the day he made the Juan Samuel trade!
In the end for all the praise you put on Cashen he was a one and done GM which makes him no better than the folks who built the 69 Mets because they at least made TWO world series appearances with pretty much the same team….
Yes he did and he basically stuck to the plan and ignored the ignorance of the fans. The point is how he built the organization into a winner. It is true he was equally responsible for tearing it down but at least there was something to tear down.
As the one and done statement is just foolish considering it is one of two in 50+ years of history. Every GM should have such a track record. Hell most are lucky to have one and done in playoff appearances.
And just because I am not an angry old man does not mean that I am necessarily young. Some of us do age with dignity.
and all he got for 5 years of losing was 1 World Series…..
What ever happend to that decade of dominance you guys keep squalking about that you suggest rebuilding with kids is going to GUARANTEE!
Did it guarantee it when Cashen did it?
No it didn’t did it….
You can think I’m a bitter old man but the truth is I have SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE!!!!!
I KNOW HOW IT ENDS!
Great Climaz in the middle but it fizzles in the end and only those who didn’t sit through it and whose only experience is via highlight reels on SNY think it was the great MET ERA!
It was a damn good 3-4 years and not much better than what Omar did save the one roll through Buckners legs that allowed them to win a WS….
If not for thet no one would even mention Cashen and Great in the same sentence!
The Mets won more games than any team in baseball from 1984-1990. If the realignment of the mid 90s happened 10 years earlier, the Mets would have had 7 straight playoff appearances at least 4 of them as division winners.
Was Cashen God’s gift to baseball? Probably not, but he was a damn fine GM.
Yeah and if alignment never happened Atlanta would still be in the WEST and we would have won the division for most of the 90′s as well….
Whats your point? They didn’t win anything no matter what alignment you wanted to make!
Who actually won most of the World Series back then?
Those Yankees you either refuse to admit exist and disprove all your theories on building a team or believe they get a special mandate and are state or federally subsidized that lets them spend what no other team that plays in NY can spend….
They Yankees won a bunch of World Series from 84-90? Huh, you learn something new every day.
“Those Yankees you either refuse to admit exist and disprove all your theories on building a team ”
What theory do they disprove? That you start with a young talented homegrown core?
“or believe they get a special mandate and are state or federally subsidized that lets them spend what no other team that plays in NY can spend….”
Have you seen the sweet deals the got on their stadiums? the new and the old. They were government mandates in everything but name.
No just more than anyone else in the years from 1990 till now!
More than anyone else COMBINED!
Still want to know what theory they disprove.
That spending ruins a franchise dummy…Why do I have to go through this 3 year old circle jerk with you when the conversation is all there for anyone above 1st grade reading level to read?
Is that the problem?
You can’t read and you just have a macro program of 100 snide remarks you press randomly?
How do you knw?
Your a Liar?
prove it!
Really Ignore on I have no time for such stupidity which you bring in bushels!
I never said spending ruins a franchise. I said spending recklessly does. that isn’t just my theory, by the way, it is a wisely accepted fact. Even Brian Cashman is dealing with it now.
I don’t know about the rest of you fine folks who love the Mets but frankly I am tired of reading the posts by a certain individual who thinks his ideas and words are etched in stone!
He is never anything but totally argumentative with almost everyone on this site and it has become more than annoying!
I would expect that he is really a closet Yankee fan whose joy in life is to disturb the devotion that real Met fans have for their team even in the toughest of times!
So, I suggest that we all join together and wish this man a Happy New Year and ask that he please find a hole to climb into and STFU.
The team that Frank Cashen put together that won everything in 86, was tremendous and should have won more championships, no doubt! The shame and the blame was that it’s two youngest and most gifted stars couldn’t handle the limelight…got caught up by their celebrity and got hooked on cocaine and booze. Darryl and Doc could and should have been first time Hall of Famer’s but the organization failed them as I see it.
I hate to admit this but Dwight Gooden had he stayed clean would have ended up exceeding the greatness of the best player who ever put on our uniform, Tom Seaver. His “stuff” was as good as what Sandy Koufax had and at 21 years of age no less.
The “bow tie” and his staff didn’t handle these problems at all!.
.
Well Alan thats what happens when you have a front office who seemingly thinks all about the business and keeps it’s distance from the players, keeps them at arms length and treats them like just a piece of cattle that if it dies, too bad go get more meat….
And in this case there ARE parallels between the way Cashen treated players and how Sandy has so far.
Cashen was clueless as to how important Ray Knight was to him….
And Sandy has no clue abut how important guys like Dickey and Reyes were to this team as well….
A spark like Reyes is just the thing that would have stopped that long losing streak in July that made Sandy Punt on the season and getting help.