Glad we agree on what caused the problem, however, we can only speculate on what would have been the end result had money not been at issue and there was no Sandy Alderson but rather Omar stayed on for the last year of his contract.

it were the former general managers who traded off their prospects in, I guess, the belief they could always buy players when to be replaced. However, those were their mistakes. We cannot say that would have been what Omar did based on his own track record for

1) He didn’t have a farm system to rely on when he became GM

2) Of that group, he traded what were passed as our top prospects and, except for Joe Smith, he wasn’t burned because they never reached the potential the Mets had expected – or perhaps what Omar felt they wouldn’t.

3) He had the financial resources, therefore, to go for the quick fix as did previous general managers, however, he put together a great team of veterans that just barely missed it three times running. Perhaps he could have gotten better ones instead, but that is the issue at this time.

4) Those veteran players were also indeed stop-gaps until the farm system which he and his people put together started to produce. Even before the injuries that set in, the Mets were chosen by many odds makers as the favorites to win the world series in 2009.

5) 2010 was the year when the transition began, with the old stars out of here and we saw the financial problem starting to effect the Mets. Bay was not Omar’s plan “A” as he stated – a starting pitcher was. He also obtained the inexpensive players Sandy was forced to a year later for stop-gaps like Jacobs, Matthews, Baharras, etc.

Now I think this is where we hit a divide. If he had the money, would Omar have done like his previous counterparts and traded Davis and others for more established players and was it because he had no money to go that he didn’t go after more established but aging veterans.

Or was he not going to anyway as the kids were becoming ready?

He did call up Tejada to slowly take over second as Castillo began being platooned and/or benched. He did call up Davis. We saw Thole called up in the middle of the season and Duda in August. These were players that were selected under his watch.

He was never in the position to have a good farm system and money at the same time. What we do know is that he did have the money to put together a very good veteran for the short-term and a farm system for the long-term before the Wilpons began to financially bleed. Would he have continued the Met tradition of then trading those prospects – we really don’t know for he was never given the opportunity.

Because he did put more effort into the farm system, to anticipate that was just for trading might be blaming the ghosts of general managers past on Omar.

They just want to blame Wilpon for everything to protect the Moneyball guy’s plan….

That is the point we are trying to make – the entire re-building effort that started in 2010/11 was a fiscal conclusion, not a baseball one. And it had little to do with the roster payroll for that in itself would not be the cause for the Mets to downsize their minor league system draft picks, scouting on top of ten percent of all their non-baseball operations.

Certainly, the expenses of running a big market baseball club does not match the revenue coming in, for even with reduced attendance at lower ticket prices, television and merchandising that revenue is a gold mine.

And the roster payroll would not have been cause to hire the financial consulting firm Deloitte CRG. We’ve used them and I know how expensive just the part of their fee to simply audit one of our capital projects is, so one can only imagine how much it cost the Mets to hire them to re-structure the entire organization. Again, CRG was not called in because of the roster payroll.

So that is why the moves being made have little to do with any plan or vision. The Mets still could not get financial institutions to re-finance their loans because the franchise was deemed to risky so Sterling Equities had to use their portion of SNY as collateral instead.

As long as the moves Sandy has made are put in that perspective, there will be no argument. It’s with those who contend that Sandy and his people looked at what they had and decided it needed to be dismantled and re-built instead of being tweaked and letting nature do it’s course by slowly replacing aging veterans with fresh blood when the time called for it.

It’s not even a case of Sandy’s people trying to do as best as they could on a shoestring budget – for Sandy has said that just because he has the money (questionable to take him at his word for anything) doesn’t mean he’s going to spend it. I doubt that is because there are little outside sources of players worth that money.

So there is no excuse for what happened to this team – except that they suddenly lost most all of their non-baseball financial investments which was also providing a healthy annual return and suddenly found themselves on the verge of financial failure. No measures can be taken to protect the financial assets of one so heavily invested in a fraud.- which would result in more profound an affect than the money wasted on a Castillo and Perez or overpaying for others.

Finally, they are not even rebuilding the proper way that a baseball club should – adding to the young talent they already have through a combination of obtaining prospects (which they did) to replace their older stars as they stop producing and not before that (which they didn’t) along with quality free agents (not even worth discussing) and trades based on talent and not money (i.e., two players for just $400,000 more than the price of one like the Pagan).

It’s because the Wilpons still need Sandy Alderson to enable them to retain ownership as they begin paying off their debts as to why things are the way they are. It’s not a baseball thinking mentality, it’s a financial one to just simply allow one to hang on.

Besides, didn’t the Rangers show that a team even being bankrupt could go to the world series? Just shows how worse our situation was that these were the steps that had to be made.

Ownership was already struggling for money with the Madoff fiasco and decreasing revenue. And Sandy Alderson received a budget of 10 to a max of 15 million $ to fill out the roster.
Which at that time needed at least one if not two SP, half a bullpen, a backup C and almost an entire bench, i.e. a grand total of about 8 players easily.

There was no immediate help on the farm except for possibly Lucas Duda, Nick Evans, Justin Turner and Dillon Gee . Consensus was that rushed youngsters like Mejia, Tejada and F.Martinez were better off starting the 2011 season at AAA. And that Gee should not be penciled in for a guaranteed rotation spot.

So, having to shop in the “fruits & nuts” section, Alderson spent his little allowance on:
LH Chris Capuano
RH Chris Young
RH Jason Isringhausen
LH Tim Byrdak
RH Trevor Buchholz
RH DJ Carrasco
C Ronnie Paulino
IF Willie Harris
OF Scott Hairston
plus selected 2b Brad Emaus & RH Pedro Beato in the RULE V (while losing RH Elvin Ramirez in the same draft).

With those moves, the Mets at least were able to field a full 25-man roster – and also had the option of opening a revolving door of options at 2b and trying to find enough relievers out of the newly added options to compete with holdovers such as Manny Acosta or Ryota Igarashi.

Now, I don´t understand how the 2011 Mets should have been turned into a legit contender with a shoestring budget of 10-15 million $ and over half a dozen open roster spots to fill with no in-house options available.

And of course, Alderson did “sabotage” the Mets status as a fringe contender in mid July, dumping Francisco Rodriguez (who probably would have blown up the entire 2012 budget, had the option vested and quite possibly could have been the final nail into the Wilpons´ ownership coffin) and trading Beltran too. Though the injuries to Wright, Davis, Reyes and Murphy, plus Johan Santana not returning as hoped did their part anyway.

Funny name the Kid Sandy has given away to get a Danny Heap…..

Cashen did what he did because he was ALREADY a last place team, ALREADY had known he was going to have top overall draft picks to work with (two top overall and 5 top 10 Picks in 5 years)

THAT is when you do what he did and build from within when you know those picks are going to be the pieces to build around and THEN you can trade away one or two stars (not four) to get even more kids to complement them.

Cashen did NOT have to make us losers in order to rebuild. We were already there!

Sandy is still in the proccess of making us the worst team to get those Picks that makes this whole philosophy work.

Four All Star performers gone and all he got was Two Prospects….
Cashen got that just on the Mazzilli trade alone! And Mazilli was never as good as anyone Sandy has traded away so far….

So he is going to need a hell of a lot more time than Cashen did….He has YET to draft anyone of strawberry and Gooden caliber and without them even what Cashen did does not work.

Timing is critical to strategy and philosophy.

This team was not ready to build from youth and with prospects. But the mistakes made by this GM and his lack of getting a good return on all he has sent away is soon going to get us there…

But by the time that happens he will not be the guy running the show anymore.
And then what happens is someone comes in that will have a different plan merely because thats what people will want….

So we will be right back where we started when Omar got here, Forced to spend to compete and put people in the seats and another decade passes without success.

Sandy’s plan was premature and it’s not me that going to be the factor that makes him run out of time it’s his own stupidity for not knowing that if he wanted to do what he is doing he had to come out (Like Cashen) and say it’s going to take 10 Years….

First 5 spent making the team the worst team in baseball, the next 5 drafting at the top of the draft heap and hopefully in the end one stupid offer of a trade of alleged coke heads that makes one side look like a genius!

You can try and tell me that this is similar to what Cashen did till your blue in the face….
But I am not buying it merely because Cashen had a situation where than plan works and Sandy does not!

We are just NOW getting close to where Cashen was when we took over….
So start that 5 year clock Cashen needed as of right now….

Then tell me you think ANYONE is really going to give Sandy another 5 years to make a winner?

Hell his biggest booster (Jessup) was ready to jump ship on him before the season started until this BUY MORE TIME deal was made….

Well I’m not selling more time….
I want to see results just as we did when Cashen at least made an ATTEMPT to get Foster and Kingman to entertain us while he implemented and finished his plan.

Those moves may not have been good in the end but they sure didn’t HURT our ability to rebuild the team now did they? Something people around here seem to think would happen if you spend on ANYTHING!

You don’t have to buy off the scrap heap to build from within and with youth….
Something Sandy doesn’t seem to know and what makes him different from Cashen!
That and the fact Cashen didn’t have to make the team suck to get the picks and kids he needed….But Sandy seems to be doing here year after year….

Very well stated indeed.

But my points are about the moves Sandy took those prior winters to build up the club. That is what is important for Sandy could not have anticipated or be held responsible for Davis lost for the year, Wright a good part of the season along with Murphy and eventually Niese at the end of August.

Those moves, many of us thought, were a disaster waiting. He put together the back end of a starting rotation and bullpen consisting of reclamation projects, discards and rule five players. Also, his idea to replace Castillo was Brad Emus (not Murphy or Turner as eventually occurred).

In 2012, he gave up too much for a situational reliever in Rameriz, signed a reliever better suited for middle relief and named him his the closer…, you know the idea.

So I was writing in terms of how Sandy prepared for the upcoming seasons – not the results. Both years the team played the first half better than anyone anticipated – again, not due to but rather in despite of – the new players he brought in and those he sent packing.

As we mostly all agree, those moves were based on financial necessity. So we cannot hold Sandy responsible for something out of his control. But again, for those who claim his moves were made due more to insight and less financial restrictions – then the insight of his baseball people making the recommendations to him has been awful.

That’s why I say the total sum of his moves from the beginning has not been based on talent but on the ledger books – as Sandy so stated during his stay in Oakland. Attached once again is that article in which he speaks of the decision to sent McGwire packing.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/McGwire-trade-may-haunt-A-s-3070724.php

That is what I believe still represents his thinking with the Mets today. In Oakland, he mentions that he would not have been able to sign other players had he kept McGwire which is correct, however, the author did raise the question of how much better the team would have been had Marc been retained.

It was due to either Oakland not having any money or Sandy looking at the projected attendance and thus not wanting to spend it. That same mindset applies to the Mets today. Beltran, KRod, Reyes, Pagan, Dickey – all sent packing for the same reasons as the steroid user and nothing more – unless Sandy was psychic and saw the injuries coming before they occurred.

Yes, the 2009 and 2010 teams were ravaged by injuries and probably closer to 85 win teams than 75 win teams structurally. But the lack of depth in the organization became very obvious once the injuries happened – and led to averaging 75.5 wins in 09 and 10.
And while the 2011 team got off to a nice start – they were ravaged by injuries too:
Santana missed the entire season.
Ike missed most of the season with the fractured ankle.
Wright played through injuries, his performance suffering and also missed a lot of time.
Reyes got hurt at the worst of possible times.
And that team again failed to reach .500.
And in 2012, 3/5ths of the opening day starting rotation were out for the season by mid / late July – or around the time of the newest collapse.
So, injuries happen. Usually teams that get lucky or have a ton of depth or a world of talent structurally survive and reach the playoffs. The 2009 through 2012 had none of these. And odds are, it wasn´t going to get better in 2013 and 2014 with essentially the same cast of players, Alderson & Co. had inherited. Due to the money restrictions, keeping the core around – or rather supporting it with quality complementary players – wasn´t an option. And there wasn´t nearly as much in-house talent available as needed.

re: Omar Minaya
While he did inherit two budding young stars in Wright & Reyes, plus solid major leaguers such as Glavine, Benson, C.Floyd, M.Cameron and a sub 100 million $ payroll, the farm system left behind by Duquette, Phillips (and sort of himself) was terrible.
Omar thought he´d be able to build a quick fix winner (which he did, trading away the few decent inherited prospects and signing top free agents) and replenish the system in time to take over when the veteran major league roster he assembled in 2005 / 2006 got old by 2009. Thus, the focus on drafting advanced, albeit often lower ceiling college players and at the same time making heavy investments in the International Free agent market both in terms of players and infrastructure. In 2006 I read an interview with Minaya about his visions of Citifield and he imagined pairing Reyes & Wright with Fernando Martinez & Carlos Gomez and Mike Pelfrey and Deolis Guerra anchoring the rotation.
Omar mis-judged the time it would take for the Latin American pipeline he built to flow – closer to 8-9 years than the 4-5 years he had planned. And obviously the Madoff mess and the end of liberal spending also hadn´t been in his plans. However, the number of underperforming and / or backloaded contracts culminated at the worst possible of times.

Still, the Mets should benefit from building the Latin American development program going forward, so Omar´s legacy willl remain an assist to the next Mets winner with an impressive group of Latin American kids – whether they were still brought in under his watch or under Alderson´s – moving up the levels and providing talent or trade bait for the Mets.

Finally, re: rushing prospects, it´s one thing rushing high ceiling prospects ages 19 to 21 and possibly damaging their outlook and “rushing” (or rather promoting) low ceiling prospects in their mid 20s – such as Nieuwenhuis, McHugh or Valdespin before they are totally prepared. Which in Valdespin´s case may well take another 3 years until he matures (if ever).

Again to summarize, there was neither enough money nor enough young talent (to trade or build with) available in 2010/2011/2012 to keep the entire “core” around or to surround it with a strong & deep enough supporting cast. That´s neither solely on Omar Minaya nor is it on Sandy Alderson.

Now, Alderson´s job will be coming up with a new core to surround Wright (and Niese) with in time. He will have a clean financial slate from 2014 on and three full seaons on the job to rebuild the system and cash in veterans for higher end prospects. Will it work ? I´m optimistic it will but time will tell…

Now, obviously that´s only history. Just because it took Cashen 4-5 years to build a winner doesn´t mean Alderson needs 4-5 years as well. Situations are quite different.
Cashen inherited less major league talent than Alderson but there were no restictions financially and also a nice starting present of a generational talent in the # 1 overall pick in the June 1980 draft, OF Darryl Strawberry.
So, there are similarities.

Whether the result with SA will turn out similar – time will tell. By 2014 we´ll have a much better idea.

With Wheeler and d’Arnaurd, just call me a worry wort for that was all it was. We will have to see but I know others expressed the same concern – at least for Wheeler.

But the mistake being made is not treating each situation and each general manager differently.

1) The team Cashen inherited cannot be compared to the team that Sandy had when he came on board.

2) Because of that, it took four years for a team under Cashen to become a contender because the team was so bad during his early years whereas Sandy had the makings of a contender his first two seasons and then could have started the transition in during the 2013 and 2014 seasons, slowly replacing Beltran and KRod and keeping those still in their prime (Reyes, Wright (which he did), Pagan and the old only in years R.A.).

That’s the right way to do things. Building for the future does not mean not having to break up what one has – instead one builds up for the future transition and replacements.

Again, think of our 2012 had Sandy not dumped it’s good players: outfield of Bay slowly being ousted by a platoon of Duda/Hairston (Scott being a Sandy man), Pagan and Beltran. An infield of Wright, Reyes, Murphy and Davis. A sore spot yes in catching with Thole but a strong starting rotation with a bullpen closed by KRod and let up to him with Parnell and a better utilized Francisco (Sandy’s mistake was putting him in the closer role which his past history showed was his weak spot). And none of the above putting a dent in our rebuilding.

If Cashen had the type of team Sandy had, the years 1980 through 1983 could have been solid while leading up to the transition that changed the face of the team of 1984.

Even Frank Cashen obtained Foster and Kingman both disappointments.

Just to show you I am objective I am disappointed in the SA’s first round draft selections but many people will say that needs time.

Metsie while some of your points are valid I say your are writing off SA as a bad or the worst GM too soon.

You EARN more time, It is not just given UNLESS you see some progress and improvement that shows you might do something good with that time…

It will take him 3 years minimum to get where he was let alone past it and into the playoffs.

Where would the Darling and Brooks trades be without those two?

Backman was here before Cashen as was Brooks…

Harvey, Tejada, Davis, Dickey, Murphy, Niese, and Gee are all AS GOOD if not BETTER than all those other guys you listed…

Cashen traded his Closer for Hernandez, What did Sandy get from his?

The DIFFERENCE which seemingly your ignoring here is Cashen didn’t make a Pagan for Turd trade….
Didn’t give up a Cy Young Caliber Pitcher….
Had not traded anyone who was AS GOOD as the guys Sandy did…

Cashen was doing MUCH better at this point in his Tenure than Sandy can even dream of….

If he was going to make this team better we would have seen some sign of it by now, We did with Cashen.
We saw what he got in the draft….

Name Sandy’s big name from the draft and a half he decided to sign?

You get time when progress is seen and more time is needed….
I see NO progress just digression….and as far as I’m concerned time is up….

If he loses money and they lose even more games this year it won’t be just me saying that….

It will be the headlines of the papers as well…

On MMO and with all Met fans we have a hung jury on SA.

The trial judge won’t accept a hung jury because it is too soon to reach a conclusion. SA is not a savior (except to the Wilpons) and not a bum at this point. The clock is ticking.

Hired 1980
First winning season 1984
WS 1986

Mets’ third consecutive last-place finish. They were advised by several people to contact Cashen and, after he predicted four or five years for a turnaround, the new owners hired him.
“I can’t tell you when are we going to win the pennant, I think we’re going to win the pennant, if I didn’t have this feeling I would not have taken the job.”—Frank Cashen during Mets press conference after he was hired as General Manager in January 1980″ In 1984, Cashen hired Davey Johnson to be the Mets’ manager After a successful 1984 season which saw the Mets first winning record since 1976. The Mets barely missed the playoffs in 1985 and then won the 1986 World Series with the best record of any team during the 1980s.

Of course Frank Cahen got Darling, Keith and Carter but had on the farm Mookie, Wally, El Sid and Hubie Brooks (in trade for Carter). Cashen got traded of Mazzilli a fan favorite for Darling.

1. Re letting Jose go, I have to believe that Sandy thought he was going to be competitive with Jose at season’s end. He’s neither foolish nor naive. When the free spending Marlins swooped in with their excessive offer, heavily backloaded to protect themselves, Sandy was sideswiped. The fact that there was no other competition for a player of Reyes’s caliber supports Alderson’s judgement. If Miami wasn’t moving into a new stadium and looking to make a huge splash in the free agent market, Jose would be wearing orange and blue today.

2. As you said, the Pagan trade looked good at the time. Sandy really can’t be faulted because the players he got failed to perform as expected. Torres is not Pagan, (and that’s why Sandy was able to get Ramirez added to the deal) but Torres should have performed better than he did, based on past experience. Similarly, Ramirez’s track record would lead you to believe that he would be a stabilizing force in the pen, reliable in late inning relief. That neither panned out, while Angel excelled, can be chalked up to happenstance, and not Alderson’s misjudgement.

3. I have to agree that Sandy has not been as aggressive as I might like him to be in pursuing waiver opportunities and minor league signings. Just this week he passed on Scott Van Slyke, who could have added some right handed power to the mix, and filled in for Ike against lefties as well as handling corner outfield duties in a heavily left handed outfield. Perhaps Sandy is protective of the spots on the 40 man roster, but Van Slyke could have been a valuable role player, even if he started the season in Las Vegas. While other teams have been signing minor league free agents and inviting them to spring training, Sandy has been dormant. There are still several out there, and I hope someone lights a fire under Sandy before we miss out on opportunities to build for the long term.