The Best And Worst Of Sandy Alderson

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• srt December 22, 2012 at 11:00 am

  Read this on the last post. Still a good read.
  I agree with most of the points here…can’t say I agree with the title though. Scathing to me usually means a negative analysis. This one here pretty much is reality.

  Only two on the 5 worst moves I take exception to is #2 and #3. At the time these deals were made, we didn’t have the benefit of the hindsight that obviously now makes them bad moves. The process at the time though was not bad at all.

  As far as #4 on the ‘bad moves’ list….you would think they should know better by now. For some reason, they keep equating those of us who are not in their millionaire status as somehow being less intelligent as well. I’m willing to bet there are scores of middle class fans whose baseball intelligence far exceeds that of the Wilpons. They’re completely out of touch with their fans, starting from that shrine they built to the Brooklyn Dodgers, to the Mets Xmas card video omitting RA Dickey highlights from last season.
• Mookie December 22, 2012 at 11:07 am

  Best and most objective review of the Alderson era I’ve read all offseason. Kudos!
• MetsWatchman December 22, 2012 at 11:08 am

  Good piece…….DrDooby’s comment was carefully thought out, included everything and well deserved reposting. I’m reposting my comment to him…..

  DrDooby……

  That had to be the fairest and most astute analysis of the new regime that I’ve read anywhere to date. GREAT JOB!

  I particularly liked that as #10 you added “knowing when its your time”. I can’t emphasize how important that truly is. And this is probably where I argue most with others here on MMO who still believe to this day that all the Mets had to do was add to the existing core. Not only were those teams flawed and had holes, but there were the intagibles also; that was the same core that was responsible for the series of late season collapses. Something needs to be said for chemistry and mettle….and those teams didn’t have it, plain and simple.

  Omar for the most part operated like every year was their time and just kept spending and adding to that core. It did get us close, but something was terribly wrong for those late season collapses to have happened. Mike Francesa, who I’m not particularly a fan of, kept saying after the first collapse in ’07, that the core needed to be broken up. I thought he was nuts then. But the truth was he made all the sense in the world.
  • Fonzie13 December 22, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    I agreed with Mike Fatcesa only I would’ve done it after 08 not 07. I thought 07 was just an aberation and would be taken care of in the offseason. Somehow Omar thought all he needed was one starter after 07 and didn’t do much else after the Santana deal. I caught hell for saying it but I would’ve busted that core up too. They proved me right.
• ray sadecki December 22, 2012 at 11:11 am

  Great job, Dooby !! This is even more positive than Delcos article. We all know about Reyes and the Pagan trade. What I think is most important in the long run is the way the minor league system has been upgraded. Drafting is always the focus but development is just as important if not more so. The fact that pitlchers in the minors are not getting injured is major as is the fact that these players are not getting rushed through the system.
  You also make a great point about SA holding on to his prospects when we were all screaming for him to get some help at the deadline the last 2 years. This front office has a plan and it looks like they are sticking to it. Soon we shall see the fruits of long term planning and patience. Our time is coming soon !!
• rustynail December 22, 2012 at 11:14 am

  i was blown away with how well this article was written.keep up the good work,it is nice to get facts for a change and not just slanted hype,
• Harry December 22, 2012 at 11:19 am

  Heck of a good analysis. Now try getting the other half of the fanbase to buy into it.
• Just-Da-Damaja December 22, 2012 at 11:33 am

  SandyBadMoves:

  1 – NOT trading Byrdack and Hairston in 2012, a season where Sandy conceded the fact he was not going to win anything, esp since he made no moves to improve an already shoddy bullpen.

  2 – Refusing to move Lucas Duda to LF until the very end of 2012, he should’ve never been in RF in the first place, and Jason Bay last year already said he was willing to move to CF, I think a move to RF would’ve been smart

  3 – Keeping Dan Warthen

  4 – The Bullpen has actually REGRESSED under Sandy since 2010

  In 2010 – the Met bullpen was ranked 9th in baseball

  http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching&sectionType=st&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1356193387128&split=rp&sortColumn=era&sortOrder='asc'&extended=0&season=2010&season_type=ANY&playerType=QUALIFIER&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position='1'&page_type=SortablePlayer&results=&perPage=50&timeframe=&last_x_days=

  2011 – 3rd to last

  http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching&sectionType=st&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1356193893109&split=rp&sortColumn=era&sortOrder='asc'&extended=0&season=2011&season_type=ANY&playerType=QUALIFIER&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position='1'&page_type=SortablePlayer&results=&perPage=50&timeframe=&last_x_days=

  2012 – 2nd to last

  http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching&sectionType=st&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1356193893109&split=rp&sortColumn=era&sortOrder='asc'&extended=0&season=2012&season_type=ANY&playerType=QUALIFIER&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position='1'&page_type=SortablePlayer&results=&perPage=50&timeframe=&last_x_days=

  3 – Under Sandy, absolutely no focus has been on DEFENSE whatsoever…his recent comments on Daniel Murphy being an adequete to above average defender at 2B highlights how ignorant Sandy is on the subject. The Met defense in 2012 was ranked last in baseball
  • TP December 22, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    J-D-D,
    Some good points. You forgot to mention thge hurricane, which was obviously his fault as well.
• Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 11:50 am

  Where is Metsie: He can’t take fair and balanced. SA is a guy for Metsie to throw baseballs at his face at Coney Island.

  Ok Metsie here is one or for you which was left out.

  “How The Mets Seduced And Swayed The Fanbase” was an excellent piece by John D and now they are getting on him for pointing out the good in SA. Yes Ike is a goner too when he is a free agent.

  As for DW’s extensiton rather than a trade I disagree as it is against SA’s philosophy of 2nd generation contracts and obviously Jeff Wilpon had his hands all over the extension of DW.
• MetsHype December 22, 2012 at 12:14 pm

  Cody Ross signs 3 yr deal with the Diamondbacks….Means Kubel or maybe Upton on the move…3yrs for Cody Ross is crazy considering he was a borderline part-time player a yr ago.
• Hank December 22, 2012 at 12:20 pm

  Oh dear goodness. Wow.

  1. At some point wins and losses (which we can count) for the MLB team has to account for something. A list of mostly intangible “improvements” for a declining MLB team is more opinion than fact.

  2. Brief thoughts on these moves…

  a. Wheeler for Beltran trade. Good move, but even better work by the Mets development staff. Beltran was best bat on the market. The Mets paid off some of his remaining salary. The Giants were playing to win at the MLB level. A prospect 2-3 years away at the least was a good price to them. And yes, Wheeler was highly regarded but he was starting to decline in people’s eyes because of control issues. Again, good move, but I think just as much kudos (in my opinion maybe even more) to the Mets staff for letting the kid get back to his mechanics an then to slow down his progression to the show.

  b. Dickey and Niese extensions. Great work here. This is what teams must do to compete and the Mets were brilliant to do this. Sandy also proved he can be up to par with what’s going on in the rest of baseball with these moves. Loved it.

  c. Dicky trade. Amazing haul that should help the franchise down the line.

  d. Arb to Feliciano. I think offering arb to Feliciano was a given. He had a market, he was going to decline, and you could get a pick. To me that better move was using that pick to draft and develop Fulmer. Great work here.

  e. Keeping Mets competitive while rebuilding. Seriously. Wins and Losses over the last two season would very much disagree with that. If that was competitive (especially in this day and age where being .500 in September means you’re in the playoff hunt), then we really need to define what competitive truly means.

  f. Getting out of K-Rod contract. Ummm, the same contract that it took the Brewers a day to get out of by restructuring the deal. If they wanted to keep K-Rod or had the money to keep K-Rod, they would’ve. Again, what the Brewers did, the Mets could have if they had the money. And that’s the main argument that never goes away with Alderson, financial decisions override baseball talent seemingly always.

  g. Slowing down player development. Yes and no. Yes with the kids new to the system. No to the likes of Kirk, Valdespin, Mejia (again), Carson, etc. To be honest Kirk and Spin should be spending the first half of this season in Vegas, but continued holes in the MLB roster means they probably won’t.

  h. Organizational approach to player development. I agree on the pitching end especially. I worry about the regression of most hitters not named Wilmer Flores. Again, I love these long-term future ideologies…but it’s hard to presently say how great they are when we have yet to see the results.

  i. The Wright extension. Count me out. I don’t like his last few years. I don’t like this secon generation contract. I believe trading him would’ve freed up money to be spent elsewhere in the MLB team (like say 2 starting OFers), given more development time to the AAAA OFers we do have (Kirk and Valdy), brought in more high impact close to MLB talent. Everything you liked about the Dickey trade says to me, the Mets could’ve gotten a similar return because Wright is younger, better by a wider gap at his position than Dickey, and has a stronger track record and hope for future production. This is to appease the lust for homegrown all time Met, like we don’t love Keith and “The Kid” even though they were not “homegrown all time Mets”. You win we love you. Don’t Kranepool us into loving a player.

  j. Knowing it’s your time. Everybody is set on 2014 being when the Mets will be ready to compete. The Braves and Nationals probably have other plans. Heck, even the decaying Phillies and the soon to be re-emerging Marlins (before you laugh realize that in 2014 they have their own high end pitching prospects they like, OF that will most likely be better than ours, and young players that they like us are hoping to develop into contributing regulars). The point is, good teams don’t simply pick a time to start competing. They compete today instead of bleeding talent and selling high on tomorrow while ignoring the rest of your division is getting and staying better.

  k. Reyes. If you weren’t re-signing him, you had to trade him. Don’t buy the market was cold. It was more like the box office needed a draw and a batting champion. Letting Reyes’ market develop would’ve yielded a good return.

  l. Pagan trade. I was never on the he’s terrible and such a cancer. Cancer to me is a guy who is terrible and not producing. No one saw Ramirez’s decline coming, but you don’t move your best OFer on a team with NO OFers.

  m. Wasting money on mediocre relievers. Scrap bin shopping is closing eyes, praying to whatever higher power you can find, and hoping for the best. It doesn’t necessarily translate to the competitiveness Sandy has apparently brought to the Mets.

  n. Insulting Mets intelligence. The problem is this continues. I refuse to cry for billionaires and their money problems. Especially when said billionaires made money by defrauding lots of people our of their financial future. Also, the Mets money problem must be put into context that monies previously designated for the Mets are now being used to pay non-Mets debt. Our owners own their own network and reside in the largest baseball market in the country. Money should never be an issue. And like I always say, yes it’s not just about spending money…it’s about spending wisely. But to spend wisely, you have to…wait for it…spend.

  o. A lack of creativity on the waiver wire. And on the free agent front, trade market front, and on the making the MLB team better front.
  • ifthevansrockin December 22, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    couple of thoughts on your well reasoned and presented list:

    1) Reyes: I really believe that we will never know what the true plan was there (in terms of potentially trading him) because once he pulled up lame with the hammy (just as the trade market was heating up) his value plummeted. Remember, when he came back, it was obvious he was still hobbled, and I remember daily discussions wondering if he was going to pop it again every time he ran to first. And of course, the other GMs saw the same thing.

    Could they have traded him anyway? Sure. Would a GM give up a top prospect for him at that point? hard to believe it.

    2) Wright: I was on for trading him and Dickey, but do believe that signing him was the owner’s call, and done as much for marketing as anything else.

    3) K Rod: The situation was totally different. The only way the Mets were getting out of the option was to extend him instead for enough to make it worthwhile for him to give up a guaranteed 17 mill. So say 3/40? IOW, just extending the pain. That option was a lock to happen with the Mets, but as soon as he was traded, it became effectively worthless, which is why it ended up netting him 500K just so the Brewers officially did not have to worry about it. But completely different situation once traded.

    2)
    • Hank December 22, 2012 at 5:38 pm

      Reyes. I can understand the argument that his value was down. However, I still think he could’ve yielded at least one close to MLB ready prospect. Like many of these things there is no way to know for sure. However, it’s the pattern it helps establish that scares me. The Mets care more about keeping up pretenses than they care about actually building and competing to win.

      Which brings us to Wright. I know we all have bosses and anyone can play armchair GM. But here’s the thing, if Sandy has any clout he stands up to Wilpons here. If Sandy has any courage he shows how moving Wright and bringing in prospects is actually helping the team in the long run. And that moving Wright gives you the much lusted after financial flexibility we as Mets fans seem to care more about these days than actually winning. No one’s saying trade Wright to trade Wright. But there would have been some very good packages out there. A package of prospects for Wright and a freed up $16MM would be a HUGE boon to our mid-market payroll and could actually bring in more talent as well. I don’t buy “the owners call” argument.

      You’re the GM. it is you that can get fired. If you’re going to get fired, get fired for making a move that fits your philosophy, that you believe in, and that you think can make the team you’re in charge of…better. The Marine, Ivy League lawyer, and baseball man doesn’t cower to the Wilpons here. Sandy either showed lack of courage, clout, and creativity to build a winner here by cowering to the Wilpons or he really thinks this is the best move. Either way, it’s a bad move by a GM so many want to believe in though the MLB product keeps eroding.

      As for K-Rod. Again, we care more about the money of billionaire scam artist than having a good team. For all of K-Rod’s problems, the bullpen was light years better with him as the anchor than it ever has been under Alderson. See the pattern. Money trumps fielding a good team. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
  • taskmaster4450 December 22, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Like many, the KRod situation is totally missed. KRod was going to get his money with the Mets….he was going to finish 55 games. The reason why the Brewers were able to get out of that option was because he WASNT closing for them. KRod knew he wasnt getting the $17.5M so he took an extra $500K to forgo the option.

    Alderson had to get rid of that onerous contract. And did anyone notice that KRod accepted arbitration last year for $8M? Amazing how so few teams were interested in him when they needed closers. And look at his 2012 numbers, it seems they were right.
    • Fonzie13 December 22, 2012 at 4:32 pm

      Nobody seems to understand that Task!. Well, some do but the majority don’t.
      • Mr North Jersey December 22, 2012 at 4:37 pm

        It really is something to see time and time again some still struggle to grasp that.
        • Hank December 22, 2012 at 5:40 pm

          See above. Short version, after two years count me out of caring about money for billionaires. I care about my favorite team actually being good.
          • Mr North Jersey December 22, 2012 at 6:38 pm

            Yes as a fan you have that luxury I understand. That has never been debated. It is the not understanding from the GM perspective why this move was done which taskmaster explained that I was referring to in regards to some struggling to grasp.
    • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      He got that much because guys with only 20 something saves do not get get CLOSER type deals…

      Which is WHY we had the leverage you all deny we had….
      We could have told him sell off the option or we trade you to someone who may not use you as a closer…

      Sell off the option and we WILL and you can go into FA with 40 something saves and get the bucks you would have made from us in free agency….

      Don’t know why you guys can’t seem to grasp that…Mostly because it doesn’t fit the Sandy Story people would prefer to be told.
• DaveNYUpstate December 22, 2012 at 12:21 pm

  Let’s not forget this is also a business. The smart ones run it like one. They know how to spend and where to spend to make their money–and be a success. The bad businesses struggle because it’s not only the product they serve, it’s elsewhere.

  The Mets have not only struggled with their product but with their “supply chain.” Let’s hope a change in the system will reap benefits like we’ve NEVER seen before. Ahhhhhh, all the “can’t miss,” trades/signings and “5 tools” guys we were supposed to enjoy…….
• Petey December 22, 2012 at 1:09 pm

  The above piece is a well stated opinion. My argument is with the value that is placed on prospects. My estimation is that a so called elite prospect has about a 20% chance of becoming an above average MLB player. With that ratio it is difficult to justify ever trading a proven superstar for such low return lottery tickets.
  • taskmaster4450 December 22, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    When your farm system is bare, it often is the only choice. Remember, with Dickey winning the CY, the Mets only finished fourth. Sad to say, he wasnt going to lead the Mets to the playoffs. Teams that hold onto their major league players while not replenishing the farm find they suddenly get old. Look at the Yankees. Who is the only regular under 30? Cano? Their pitching staff is older than dirt and they were dependent upon the Killer Bs for the future. Sadly, when an organization has to go 2 for 2 with prospects, the future is dark. Prospects are a numbers game and the Mets need to work them in their favor.
    • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 2:04 pm

      Dickey, Niese, Davis, Tejada, Harvey, Gee, Murphy and maybe Duda is hardly what I call a BARE FARM….

      Sure some were already promoted when Sandy got here but lets stop with this bull that he had nothing (merely because they got promoted already) to work with because he had PLENTY not only to work with but was actually READY to contribute.

      He also had Beltran, K-Rod, and Reyes to restock with….
      For all of them combined he got Wheeler and thats about it!
      • Brian December 22, 2012 at 2:38 pm

        They put more stock in prospects who have yet to do anything or even make it to the majors, over prospects that came up and started to produce immediately. They should only hope Sandy’s kids can do what Omar’s kids have done. Until then, ZIP IT!
        • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 2:40 pm

          True Brian….
          A lot of Egg Counting before they have hatched going on here…

          The problem is to many of these guys….

          20 Year Old > KNOWN PERFORMER!

          Doesn’t matter what that 20 Year old might do just having a kid is gold and having a performer not as good.
      • taskmaster4450 December 22, 2012 at 2:48 pm

        Dickey wasnt a farm hand but a scrap heap signing that everyone chastizes Alderson for.

        And with that wonderful farm, how many AS appearances do those players have? ZERO.

        And it is amazing you mention Duda when most Met fans are claiming we have ZERO outfielders. So which is it, is Duda legit or not.

        And how about those wonderful catching prospects? Omar did a stellar job there. Thole, who wasnt even drafted as a catcher, was the best the organization had. Pathetic.

        Defense of Omar is indefensible. He destroyed the franchise for years to come. 6 years of drafting with little to show for it. Ike and Harvey might be homeruns but overall a dismal record in that time.

        And KRod. You really need to clue in if you want to throw him up as anything. Getting rid of that piece of garbage was one of Alderson’s better moves. His season last year was worse than Francisco . Oh and let us not forget another domestic battery rap. There is a real man….what a loser he is.

        The problem is you believe as long as they have a high price tag the Mets should him. If the Mets signed Martin for millions you would have been happy even though his stats werent much better than John Bucks. Cody Ross? Yeah spend $8M a year even though he would be trash in Citi Field. Pay the bucks because that equates to winning. Seems you failed to learn the lessons of 2009, 2010, and 2011.

        But that is okay. Sit back and watch how a true winning organization is developed. And if that isnt enough for you, you can always root for Seattle now that they have the poster child of big money, garbage players in Jason Bay.
        • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 2:50 pm

          Was he available for Alderson to use and build with? YES!

          So whatever point you think you made is pointLESS

          Dickey was here which negates any attempt by you folks from claiming Alderson started in this HOLE you percieve existed but did NOT!
          • taskmaster4450 December 22, 2012 at 2:59 pm

            Follow the conversation….we were discussing the Mets FARM system. RA Dickey was not drafted by the Mets nor did he develop in the Mets organization. He was a FA pickup.

            I am sorry we lost you.

            And yes Alderson did walk into a terrible situation and only someone who is completely disconnected with reality (or completely obtuse) would not admit it. Even the heralded Omar knew things were going down the tubes with his last ditched effort of signing Bay.

            But that is okay, this is America and you have the right to be 100% wrong and not learn a single thing about what is truly going on. You keep hanging onto the idea that success is built by just signing players. Fred is your king. Please give us more Bobby Bonilla. Vince Coleman. Kevin Appier. Jason Bay. Tom Glavine. (A case could be made about Pedro).
            • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 4:22 pm

              He was a much a part of the Farm system as Ron Darling (who you guys cite as the same as the Beltran and Dickey trades) and Wheeler are….

              Just because he had some MLB experience doesn’t mean he is any different than those two!

              And truth is he is not much different than d’Arnuad is either….We signed a GOOD player who started in out MiL system and got promoted and became STAR!

              And Sandy got the BENEFIT of that!
              So your just trying to play the DENIAL game in hopes of this SANDY HAD NOTHING crap might be sold….
              We know better!
• Metsie December 22, 2012 at 1:54 pm

  I’m Right here Hotstreak….

  As for fair and balanced? Please give me a break!

  1 – Beltran for Wheeler, even if Wheeler tears his labrum? Doesn’t matter it’s still a good deal? Why? This will also apply to #3 but I’ll say it here….This deal is NOTHING until Wheeler does something and shows he has some value to the MLB squad! We get nothing for just having him in AAA or for having the priviledge of putting him on the roster without throwing a single pitch in the MLB….This deal will be judged when Wheeler gets here and if he doesn’t BAD TRADE! Pagan was a good move based on this HOPE (not fact) how did that turn out?

  3 – Just because you didn’t expect to get as much as you did (your problem really not mine) does not make the Dickey trade a good one. You also got more for Pagan than anyone thought yet that one made the BAD MOVE list didn’t it? For the same reasons as stated above if all those guys suck then you lost Dickey for squat!

  4 – Oferring Arb to Feliciano well how would this move look if he accepted and then hurt himself as he did? I will agree it turned out well for us thanks to Feliciano declining and Cashmen making the mistake of signing him away. Was it a plus move? Yes but we got lucky it was not because Sandy made the RIGHT move….

  5 – Competitive? COMPETITIVE? (Imagine Jim Mora here!) Considering how so many justify the moves we have been making on the basis of NOT BEING competitive I had to laugh when I read this! Did we have a chance to be competitive? YES! But some of those GOOD MOVES we have listed here stopped it from being a full seasons worth and pulled the rug out from under the team at the critical time it needed to ADD players not Purge them. Bottomline here is we are not as competitive as we were in 2010. A year we also had less than half a season of Beltran. As for the rebuilding seems we didn’t have much issue with that before Sandy got here…Niese, Tejada, Davis, Harvey, Gee, and Murphy are all home grown and the majority of your OF is going to be as well at the rate Sandy is moving this offseason.

  6 – Considering Sandy HIMSELF considers it a Mistake I find it odd you thought to make this a GOOD MOVE….Sorry but it was the move that wiped out our Pen after an Offseason that decimated that pen of anything we could use before the 9th inning and with a lead. There were other BETTER ways to get out from under the 17.5 Mil option, Our FO was not creative and smart enough to get one of those done and got squat back in return despite actually paying a large portion of his remaining Salary that year.

  7 – Really we slowed down the pace of development? Did Harvey not come up before Sandy wanted to promote him? Was Valdespin and Kirk ready to face MLB Pitching? Was Duda really ready to be an everyday RFer? Truth of the slowdown of promotions for the rest of the Prospects has more to do with thier getting hurt (den dekker, Havens Mejia) than anything to do with us slowing down the pace of Development. And since we rushed those other guys I call this example of GOOD as complete BULL! You have ask yourself has development slowed or merely STALLED here? Afterall the only prospects that might see the light of an MLB day at our farm (other than a Sept callup) are Wheeler and Mejia. Not a single OF prospect is expected to come up and fill those holes.

  8 – Many think that organizational approach is hurting our Kids and resulting in that STALL you percieve as slowing down of development cycle. Truth is not every batter is the same and unless your approach works for EVERY type of batter (such as learning how to fight and protect the plate with 2Ks on you) your not making batters better hitter. The aproach we have just makes them better WALKERS…Walkers is what they call the Corpses that run around on Walking Dead!

  10 – You should wait to pat him on the back until he actually decides it’s our time and makes a move. Because that time could come (or have come) and Sandy just Missed it! Last year was a good example where a Power RH bat at the deadline could have made last season a good one, Even re-Signing Beltran (at the discount) would have made last year a pretty good one and one not likely to get punted on in July because with his added production (RH Power Bat). In the end all #10 is really just calling a LACK of move a good MOVE….Sorry doing nothing isn’t a move it’s doing nothing and standing pat!

  So of your 10 You got two good moves left, Extending Niese, Wright and Dickey

  Add to your bad moves the following….

  6 – Not signing half his draft picks last year. I guarantee ONE of those players will come back and bite us in the ass…

  7 – Not even willing to pay SLOT to what was one of our better picks last year just to save the Wilpons 60 THOUSAND dollars!

  8 – Not stepping up (in BOTH cases) where their player was being smeared in the press (Ike Davis and Dickey) and squashing those reports that make us look like idiots and unattractive if and when you guys and Sandy get off your duff and decide to re-enter Free Agency.

  9 – Wishy…Washy, Harvey is not ready, Harvey is Ready, Mejia is a Starter, no he is a Closer, no scratch that he is a Starter again. We are Buyers no wait we are not, We want Jose Reyes, no forget that we don’t even want to make an offer.

  10 – Almost every player recently acquired (exception d”Arnaud and Wheeler) has had a BA below or just slightly above the mendoza line. Pagan at .270 wasn’t good enough but Torres at .220 (career .240) was a GREAT DAY acquisition….

  11 – Beato for Shoppach – Where were all the GET KID folks and those who praised Beato as a GREAT example of the kinds of move we must make to be winners when that deal went down? Funny how the Beltran deal was a good one because Beltran (a GOOD player) was just a rental and Wheeler is a young future prospect yet when we do something on a smaller scale in reverse not a peep from you guys!

  12 – Closing down the instructional league to save money only to open it up again the following year. Maybe you think this was to SLOW DOWN DEVELOPMENT which for some reason you think is a PLUS idea….

  Here is a plus you didn’t mention that will relate to my next Minus….He made some payroll flexability by deferring Bay and Wright money…..So on My scorecard you got three plusses but….

  13 – Failure to spend the money he did manage to get to improve the team and giving it to the Wilpons to go towards the next Helicopter needed to see a HEAT game.

  14 – Coming out on Television and to the press every July since he has been here to throw in the Towel, the team had exhibited one very good trait the last two years that were seemingly lost after these lovely press proclamations….They WOULD fight back till the game was over….you could not turn off a game that was seemingly lost until the last out because they had a great chance of coming back and winning…Not so much past July and these WE ARE DONE proclamations. Aside from the affect it had on the players it also severely hurt any chance of financial fluidity because og the GM gives up on the season, so too will the fans who had intentions of going late in the year. Only those who already bought tickets before we waved the white flag will go.

  That should be enough to cover it although I am sure I can find some more….

  Happy Hotstreak?
  • taskmaster4450 December 22, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Beato is such a hot prospect that he cleared waivers. So, NOBODY wants him.

    Seems like it was a good trade for Alderson. (even though it ultimately means nothing).
    • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 3:17 pm

      Where were you when we took him Rule 5 and he was heralded as a great pick up?

      Bottomline is if you think Beltran/Dickey for Kids is a good deal because of the POTENTIAL then you should be screaming about SHoppach for Beato due to all the potential you lost on Beato for a rental!

      Can’t have it both ways….
  • DrDooby December 22, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Re: Metsie…

    1 – Beltran for Wheeler

    Of course, Wheeler´s progress will be a huge key for the Mets going forward. Though one key part of getting top prospects back is it increases your chances of landing a really good pitchers. Odds that both Wheeler and Syndergaard are frontline SP by 2016 are pretty small. However, odds that one of the two is are pretty high. Ultimately, the end result of a trade matters.
    That said, besides Monday morning arm-chair QBing, the Mets got premium value out of this trade. More than anyone ever expected.

    3 Again, look through off-season predictions / suggestions by the mainstream media – and I read a lot of suggestions of trading Dickey for packages that were less than Travis D´Arnaud alone. Most of Baseball – both reporters and people working in pro Baseball were shocked at the return the Mets got. I can also clearly remember several posts on this site, attacking Alderson for supposedly asking for “too much”, so nobody would deal with the Mets. In this case – just like with Wheeler – it worked out very well asking for a major haul. Again, like in Wheeler´s case, odds are not every of these prospects will emerge as an elite player. Still, even if D´Arnaud merely becomes a solid average MLB fulltime C and Syndergaard only becomes a solid average SP in the Mike Pelfrey mold, it´ll still be a good trade as you get a couple of players you can control for 12 years, 6 of them at almost no-cost.
    And the Mets lost 83+ games with RA Dickey in their rotation for the past 3 seasons, so it´s not as if Alderson has just destroyed a legit contender here.

    4 – Oferring Arb to Feliciano well how would this move look if he accepted and then hurt himself as he did?

    Well, it sure is smarter than giving away Billy Wagner for nothing being scared of him accepting arbitration. And odds that Feliciano would get a two-year deal somewhere were pretty high based on his performance from 2006 through 2011.

    5 – Competitive? COMPETITIVE? (Imagine Jim Mora here!)
    Well, aren´t you one of the folks who is blasting Alderson for sabotaging our 2011 title run ? So, at least through mid July 2011 and the K-Rod & Beltran deals, the team certainly was competitive – even if it may have been playing over its head.
    Likewise, through mid July 2012, until 2/5ths of the rotation, i.e. the team strength, broke down, the Mets were at the fringes of the race. Not good enough to have a legit shot or to justify investing into an ill-fated run. But interesting enough to keep watching until the wheels fell off – for the same reason the wheels have been falling off for several years here: LACK OF DEPTH !!! Improving depth is a key goal besides accumalting as much high-end talent as possible. However, this also doesn´t happen overnight – and it doesn´t happen without any money to spend.
    The 2010 Mets won 79 games with a 140 million $ payroll btw. So it´s not as if that was a team that really was a legit contender any longer than the 2011 and 2012 Mets.

    6 – Considering Sandy HIMSELF considers it a Mistake ???
    That´s typical Sandy crap for which I´ve criticized him before. There was no way in the world Sandy would have let K-Rod´s option vest. And there was no way in the world Scott Boras would have re-negotiated the 17.5 million $ option with the Mets the way he did with the Brewers – where his client was a setup reliever and wouldn´t have seen the option vest anyway. Claiming dumping K-Rod was a mistake (according to SA) is about as convincing as claiming “we´re still only focused on 2012″ in late August a dozen games out of the Wild Card. Or like claiming dumping Beato – who would have been on the bubble for the 40-man roster 2 months later anyway and just passed through waivers unclaimed with BOS – for Shoppach was a “win now” move for 2012. This was an iota of lipstick on a big pig. And it was an insult to Mets fans´ intelligence.

    7 – Really we slowed down the pace of development?
    Absolutely. Compare Harvey & Pelfrey, two very similar pitchers out of college. Pelfrey made his debut 8 months after signing a pro deal. Harvey made his debut 23 months after signing. You think Omar & Co. could have resisted bringing up Harvey in late 2011 instead of Schwinden or in April 2012 when Pelfrey went down ???
    Valdespin & Nieuwenhuis are both 25 years old. It´s time to let them sink or swim. Likewise, Duda is 26 – it was time for him to show he can really hit at the big league level to off-set his brutal defense instead of giving him a full year at AAA to work on things. It´s certainly different from bringing up 19-year-old Ruben Tejada or 20-year-olf Fernando Martinez from Double A. Or throwing Eddie Kunz into the MLB fire barely a year after drafting him and apparently ruining whatever confidence he may have had in the process.

    8
    The previous approach sure didn´t yield too many great results among kids, did it ? How many impact hitters did the Mets produce between 2005 and 2010 ? Maybe Ike Davis. And Murphy & Tejada are useful bats. The rest are fringe major leaguers at best – even if there´s still modest hope left for Duda, Nieuwenhuis and Valdespin to figure something out.

    10
    Obviously, this is far from finished. 2014 has always been the target year. From that season on, this will all be on Alderson and progress should be made. Alderson came here with the goal of creating a longterm & sustainable winner. Well, you do that by creating a strong core of young and lowly paid players and then gradually surround it with an expensive but rotating veteran supporting cast.

    A RHH power bat would have made last season a good one ? Even by trading the entire farm system for Giancarlo Stanton last summer, the Mets wouldn´t have finished over .500 in 2012.

    And re- the supposed “bad moves”

    6 – Not signing half his draft picks last year. I guarantee ONE of those players will come back and bite us in the ass…

    The 2012 June draft class – according to experts – was among the weakest in a long time. Besides, the Mets, lacking a GCL affiliate (cutting that may have been a mistake !) didn´t have much room anyway. And while they did take a bunch of flyers in later rounds (and only signed a couple), would it have been better to sign 5 extra Daniel Munos instead ?

    7 – Not even willing to pay SLOT to what was one of our better picks last year just to save the Wilpons 60 THOUSAND dollars ???

    Ah, the unsigned 2nd rounder. Again, in a weak class, this kid Stankiewicz goes in the 80s overall. So, I guess the other 29 organizations fell asleep.
    Besides, the logic of getting an additional pick in the 2013 June draft and thus higher slot money for that class overall is pretty sound isn´t it ? Especially with no Mets comp pick next season anywhere. Or should the Mets have made a qualifying offer to Scott Hairston ?

    8 – We´ve had “smear campaigns” in New York – with both the Yankees & Mets – since I began following Baseball in the mid 80s. Heck, papers need to be sold. Why get into crap like that ?

    9 – Maybe “Harvey may not be 100 % ready” serves in part to temper excitement and lower expectations ? Since I have no idea what to make of Mejia, I don´t blame them. As for the other supposed “wishy washy”, I agree and I don´t like it. While you don´t have to lay out the off-season plan in detail, it´d help to get a bit more honesty in terms of “We´re certainly not giving up 2013 – but our goal remains to build a longterm winner here and thus sometimes building for the future, the present needs to take a step backwards”. That would be appreciated. But it also may contradict ambitions to still sell as many tickets as possible to help the cash-starved employer.

    10 – Almost every player recently acquired has had a BA below or just slightly above the mendoza line ???
    I guess you get what you pay for. If you go shopping on 5th avenue with 11 dollars in your pocket, odds are you won´t acquire a pair of diamond rings but maybe a pair of hotdogs instead. Again, pretty much all shortterm moves are almost solely intended to buy time. Sure, try to be competitive. But only if there´s no downside to it financially or in terms of losing future talent. Quick trivia: Who is the last prospect the Mets traded before Jefrey Marte (with all due respect to non-prospect Mike Antonini) ?
    Answer: Probably Maikel Cleto and Mike Carp in the JJ Putz deal over 4 years ago. When you rebuild, you keep the young talent. And if the window doesn´t open until 2014 (hopefully), why buy expensive furniture for the room before it happens ?

    11 – Beato for Shoppach
    Basically a lipstick on a pig move. Beato would have been DFAd after the season anyway after clashing with coaches at AAA and not fulfilling expectations. Might as well get a 1st hand look at Shopp (apparently, he didn´t impress). It was a meaningless lipstick on a pig move. About as meaningful as Antonini for Hu.

    12 – Closing down the instructional league ( I guess you meant Gulf Coast) to save money only to open it up again the following year….
    Yes, somewhat perplexing – though having 3 teams in DOM. and VEN., plus six US affiliates was still tied for the most in Baseball, I believe.

    13 – Failure to spend the money he did manage to get to improve the team and giving it to the Wilpons to go towards the next Helicopter needed to see a HEAT game.

    -> Again, just spend for the sake of spending. Would signing Cody Ross to a 3-year, 27 million $ deal this winter turn the 2013 Mets into a contender ? Would it help in 2015 when the Mets hopefully are a contender and Ross is 34 and probably a platoon player at best, making 9 million when you instead should sign the 2015 version of Cody Ross at age 31 ?

    14 – Sometimes, throwing the towel for the greater good needs to happen.

    That should be enough to cover it although I am sure I can find some more….
    -> And I´m not sure it would be very convincing….

    Is Alderson´s record spotless ? Heck no !
    Is it time for a full evaluation ? Heck no !
    A rebuild “from within” generally takes 4-5 years. Do we have any sort of guarantee it´ll work ? Of course not. However, 2013 will be Alderson´s 3rd season on the job. If the Mets keep losing 85+ games in 2014 and 2015, then this front office will have failed. Or to put it differently, I´m expecting a playoff team within the next 3 years here and the combined record of the 2013 through 2015 Mets to be over .500. In terms of a “results” business, that´ll be the results to judge this FO on.
    • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm

      Why oh why did the previous post wind up in moderation?
  • Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Hi Metsie:

    I agree with you that the organizational instance on pitches-per- plate-appearance is counter-productive except for the number two hitter with speed at the top of the order. Additional Negative

    Speaking of speed in 2012 the team had its legs cutoff- Additional Negative

    SA is far from perfect. I am neither a SA apologist or a SA hater. But this is where we have a major difference. The Madoff situation and Picard lawsuit were the Wilpons fault not SA. The analogy I gave you previously where the patient has gang green infection and the doctor amputates a leg and the patient sues the doctor. SA was hired to make sure the Wilpons survived as owners. You do not want to concede that We had bloated unproductive payroll and every dollar counted. You argument increase payroll and put a good product on the field and the fans will come. Things were so bad that bridge loans and minority investors had to be obtained. Citi Field bonds had to be paid. Yes SNY could have financed the operation. Why didn’t they? I have a gut feeling Picard would have sued SNY if funds were commingled.
    • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 7:44 pm

      “The Madoff situation and Picard lawsuit were the Wilpons fault not SA”

      But hat doesn’t make a bad job a good job by any stretch of the imagination…

      You want to say Sandy can’t succeed then fine…
      Don’t tell me he is doing a GOOD JOB if only he wasn’t forced to do a bad one….

      I don’t really care what the reason here is I’m rating the RESULTS….

      If an idiot is only capable of answering 1 question on a 10 question test right I don’t pat him on the back and say Good Job….Maybe for him it’s a good showing, it may be the best he can do under the circumstances, but to me it’s still a 10 grade on a paper that is rated by 100 as the top score.

      If Sandy wants to blame them for his record when they fire him thats his business…
      I would certainly accept it and wish him well…

      But thats not what is going on here we are cheering him for making moves that have either yet to prove were good or all because we have a SUSPICION he is being held back by the Wilpons financial considerations….

      And the truth is if he was REALLY a good GM doing a GREAT JOB he would have done something that put people in the seats (Like Cashen did with Kingman and Foster) to make sure the Wilpons couldn’t have loss or lack of money as an excuse to hold him back.

      As for the gang green analogy I already told you how I felt about that….
      The Gang Green of Bay and Santana payrolls are still on our books…

      The Doctor cut off the WRONG and HEALTHY legs thinking he could save the patient!
      And now he needs more than just a crutch he needs a wheelchair and he can’t afford it because the Doctor ignored the fact those healthy legs were the ones keeping fannies in the seats and selling tickets.
      • Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 10:34 pm

        Frank Cashen synopsis from Wikipedia

        Hired 1980
        First winning season 1984
        WS 1986

        Mets’ third consecutive last-place finish. They were advised by several people to contact Cashen and, after he predicted four or five years for a turnaround, the new owners hired him.
        “I can’t tell you when are we going to win the pennant, I think we’re going to win the pennant, if I didn’t have this feeling I would not have taken the job.”—Frank Cashen during Mets press conference after he was hired as General Manager in January 1980″ In 1984, Cashen hired Davey Johnson to be the Mets’ manager After a successful 1984 season which saw the Mets first winning record since 1976. The Mets barely missed the playoffs in 1985 and then won the 1986 World Series with the best record of any team during the 1980s.

        Of course Frank Cahen got Darling, Keith and Carter but had on the farm Mookie, Wally, El Sid and Hubie Brooks (in trade for Carter). Cashen got traded of Mazzilli a fan favorite for Darling.
        • Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 10:38 pm

          Metsie, my point which I left out was that it takes time to reach a a verdict on SA.

          On MMO and with all Met fans we have a hung jury on SA.

          The trial judge won’t accept a hung jury because it is too soon to reach a conclusion. SA is not a savior (except to the Wilpons) and not a bum at this point. The clock is ticking.
          • Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 10:43 pm

            Oh I left out a farm hand by the name of Darryl Strawberry.
          • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 10:46 pm

            My point is ANY comparison of SA to Cashen Show me his Strawberry and Gooden…

            Where would the Darling and Brooks trades be without those two?

            Backman was here before Cashen as was Brooks…

            Harvey, Tejada, Davis, Dickey, Murphy, Niese, and Gee are all AS GOOD if not BETTER than all those other guys you listed…

            Cashen traded his Closer for Hernandez, What did Sandy get from his?

            The DIFFERENCE which seemingly your ignoring here is Cashen didn’t make a Pagan for Turd trade….
            Didn’t give up a Cy Young Caliber Pitcher….
            Had not traded anyone who was AS GOOD as the guys Sandy did…

            Cashen was doing MUCH better at this point in his Tenure than Sandy can even dream of….

            If he was going to make this team better we would have seen some sign of it by now, We did with Cashen.
            We saw what he got in the draft….

            Name Sandy’s big name from the draft and a half he decided to sign?

            You get time when progress is seen and more time is needed….
            I see NO progress just digression….and as far as I’m concerned time is up….

            If he loses money and they lose even more games this year it won’t be just me saying that….

            It will be the headlines of the papers as well…
            • Hotstreak December 22, 2012 at 11:16 pm

              Again I am not SA apologist.

              Even Frank Cashen obtained Foster and Kingman both disappointments.

              Just to show you I am objective I am disappointed in the SA’s first round draft selections but many people will say that needs time.

              Metsie while some of your points are valid I say your are writing off SA as a bad or the worst GM too soon.
              • Metsie December 23, 2012 at 3:00 pm

                streak I’m notaccusing you of being an apologist so no need to state it….

                Cashen did what he did because he was ALREADY a last place team, ALREADY had known he was going to have top overall draft picks to work with (two top overall and 5 top 10 Picks in 5 years)

                THAT is when you do what he did and build from within when you know those picks are going to be the pieces to build around and THEN you can trade away one or two stars (not four) to get even more kids to complement them.

                Cashen did NOT have to make us losers in order to rebuild. We were already there!

                Sandy is still in the proccess of making us the worst team to get those Picks that makes this whole philosophy work.

                Four All Star performers gone and all he got was Two Prospects….
                Cashen got that just on the Mazzilli trade alone! And Mazilli was never as good as anyone Sandy has traded away so far….

                So he is going to need a hell of a lot more time than Cashen did….He has YET to draft anyone of strawberry and Gooden caliber and without them even what Cashen did does not work.

                Timing is critical to strategy and philosophy.

                This team was not ready to build from youth and with prospects. But the mistakes made by this GM and his lack of getting a good return on all he has sent away is soon going to get us there…

                But by the time that happens he will not be the guy running the show anymore.
                And then what happens is someone comes in that will have a different plan merely because thats what people will want….

                So we will be right back where we started when Omar got here, Forced to spend to compete and put people in the seats and another decade passes without success.

                Sandy’s plan was premature and it’s not me that going to be the factor that makes him run out of time it’s his own stupidity for not knowing that if he wanted to do what he is doing he had to come out (Like Cashen) and say it’s going to take 10 Years….

                First 5 spent making the team the worst team in baseball, the next 5 drafting at the top of the draft heap and hopefully in the end one stupid offer of a trade of alleged coke heads that makes one side look like a genius!

                You can try and tell me that this is similar to what Cashen did till your blue in the face….
                But I am not buying it merely because Cashen had a situation where than plan works and Sandy does not!

                We are just NOW getting close to where Cashen was when we took over….
                So start that 5 year clock Cashen needed as of right now….

                Then tell me you think ANYONE is really going to give Sandy another 5 years to make a winner?

                Hell his biggest booster (Jessup) was ready to jump ship on him before the season started until this BUY MORE TIME deal was made….

                Well I’m not selling more time….
                I want to see results just as we did when Cashen at least made an ATTEMPT to get Foster and Kingman to entertain us while he implemented and finished his plan.

                Those moves may not have been good in the end but they sure didn’t HURT our ability to rebuild the team now did they? Something people around here seem to think would happen if you spend on ANYTHING!

                You don’t have to buy off the scrap heap to build from within and with youth….
                Something Sandy doesn’t seem to know and what makes him different from Cashen!
                That and the fact Cashen didn’t have to make the team suck to get the picks and kids he needed….But Sandy seems to be doing here year after year….
            • DrDooby December 23, 2012 at 2:26 am

              Well to refresh memory a bit, Cashen gave away future star pitchers Jeff Reardon and Mike Scott in trades that essentially landed the Mets PH / 5th OF Danny Heep.
              After the 1982 season, i.e. three seasons into his job, there wasn´t a single player Cashen had acquired at a high level.
              Basically, all the positive effects happened on the farm while the better players on the major league roster were inherited from the previous regime.
              None of the players he brought in that were later vital in the mid 80s turnaround were established major leaguers yet.

              Now, obviously that´s only history. Just because it took Cashen 4-5 years to build a winner doesn´t mean Alderson needs 4-5 years as well. Situations are quite different.
              Cashen inherited less major league talent than Alderson but there were no restictions financially and also a nice starting present of a generational talent in the # 1 overall pick in the June 1980 draft, OF Darryl Strawberry.
              So, there are similarities.

              Whether the result with SA will turn out similar – time will tell. By 2014 we´ll have a much better idea.
              • Hotstreak December 23, 2012 at 4:32 am

                The Jury is still out. No verdict yet is the proper call. SA’s regime is under review as to his legacy and the Met’s ultimate fate in the future.
              • Metsie December 23, 2012 at 3:01 pm

                Mike Scott? You mean that guy who almost kept us out of the World Series in 86?

                Funny name the Kid Sandy has given away to get a Danny Heap…..
          • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 11:07 pm

            You know Rex Ryan said the same thing about Mark Sanchez and it’s probably going to cost him his job….

            You EARN more time, It is not just given UNLESS you see some progress and improvement that shows you might do something good with that time…

            It will take him 3 years minimum to get where he was let alone past it and into the playoffs.
        • Joey D. December 23, 2012 at 12:49 am

          Hi Hotstreak,

          With Wheeler and d’Arnaurd, just call me a worry wort for that was all it was. We will have to see but I know others expressed the same concern – at least for Wheeler.

          But the mistake being made is not treating each situation and each general manager differently.

          1) The team Cashen inherited cannot be compared to the team that Sandy had when he came on board.

          2) Because of that, it took four years for a team under Cashen to become a contender because the team was so bad during his early years whereas Sandy had the makings of a contender his first two seasons and then could have started the transition in during the 2013 and 2014 seasons, slowly replacing Beltran and KRod and keeping those still in their prime (Reyes, Wright (which he did), Pagan and the old only in years R.A.).

          That’s the right way to do things. Building for the future does not mean not having to break up what one has – instead one builds up for the future transition and replacements.

          Again, think of our 2012 had Sandy not dumped it’s good players: outfield of Bay slowly being ousted by a platoon of Duda/Hairston (Scott being a Sandy man), Pagan and Beltran. An infield of Wright, Reyes, Murphy and Davis. A sore spot yes in catching with Thole but a strong starting rotation with a bullpen closed by KRod and let up to him with Parnell and a better utilized Francisco (Sandy’s mistake was putting him in the closer role which his past history showed was his weak spot). And none of the above putting a dent in our rebuilding.

          If Cashen had the type of team Sandy had, the years 1980 through 1983 could have been solid while leading up to the transition that changed the face of the team of 1984.
    • Erik Scheibe December 24, 2012 at 12:14 pm

      Not exactly a Wilpon apologist, but just curious. Do you consider all of the other Madoff victims to be “guilty” of getting swindled out of huge sums of money or just the owners of our favorite baseball team because it hurt the team’s ability to compete? These guys may not be the best baseball people, but they were robbed by Madoff and then hijhacked (blackmailed) by the other scoundrel Picard.
      • Metsie December 24, 2012 at 3:49 pm

        good point I have tried to make many times here Eric but they really don’t want to hear it….

        They just want to blame Wilpon for everything to protect the Moneyball guy’s plan….
• TruthsaboutMurphy December 22, 2012 at 2:47 pm

  What, Dooby writes a huge comment and Joe posts it, so now everyone is writing a huge comment?

  So funny, get real…

  Great comment Scooby Dooby. Agree with most all of it.
  • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Obviously your new around here or you would know better…..
• Mr North Jersey December 22, 2012 at 2:52 pm

  Congrats DrDooby on getting your comment posted as a fan shot.
• tlagee December 22, 2012 at 4:12 pm

  Fairly good post – though the key here is how much affect the Madoff scandle had on the Mets finances.

  Sandy was brought in to lower the payroll by salary dumping. the team has not been competative since Sandy has taken over (no, the season doesn’t end five days before the All Star break!).

  Some good points though – He was able to dump K-Rod’s salary. Yes, he should have resigned Reyes.

  If Wheeler turns out to be any good then dumping a player who signed for 13 million this year hit 32 dingers with 100 rbi may be a good deal but we sure could have used that bat last year. And it was a salary dump regardless of the Mets paying the rest of his salary – they had no intention of resigning Beltran because of money – they so no future for him with the team because of money – so they dumped. Now we’ll wait and see if Wheeler is worth anything.

  The Dickey trade only makes sense because we aren’t going to compete for two or three years – so why not trade the Cy Young winner.

  Listen, at the end of the day, Fred Wilpon was either stupid greedy or both and was financially pulled under by Bernie Madoff. Because of what Fred did the team has not competed for the last two years and will not compete for at least two more.

  For those of you who think Sandy was brought in to fix the team – I don’t buy it. He was brought in to fix the team’s finances – because Fred’s greedy little fingers were caught in the Madoff cookie jar.

  Sandy’s moves, for the most part, involve dumping players to get the payroll down by 30%. He gets some prospects in return – and that’s normal when you are trading ML players for minor league players. You might even get some good prospects depending on how good the player is who you are dumping.

  Doesn’t make Sandy smart. It makes him a guy who will trade good players for players who are cheaper.

  In my opinion, the moment they didn’t resign Reyes I knew this wasn’t about the future. I twas only about money.
  • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    Think about the Beltran deal for a second….

    We could have had Beltran at a 5 Mil discount and gotten Wheeler for FREE!

    Then it would have been a SLAM DUNK good move to trade Beltran because in the end it would have been like the Giants giving up Wheeler and 5 Million dollars for nothing in the end.

    And all anyone who mloves the trade has to say about that is the ASSumption that Beltran would never have signed with us….
    • tlagee December 22, 2012 at 4:46 pm

      metsie -

      Sandy was not prepaared to pay 13 million dollars for one player.

      Especially since he could field a whole outfield for one tenth that amount which he will next year.
      • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 4:50 pm

        prepared or not that lack of preperation then is the reason why he failed and is in the predicament he is in now…

        NO OF!

        He traded away the only two he had and thats why we will have that OF we will see next year…

        That entire OF will probably not do as much as one Beltran would.

        In the ends it’s playing MONEY not BASEBALL….

        Carboard cutouts are pretty cheap too….
  • Joey D. December 22, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    Hi tlagee,

    My apologizes for repeating your words but had to – no one could have expressed this better. I just don’t understand with all that is known about the Wilpons’ financial mess and Sandy Alderson himself, that it still needs to be said. But here goes -

    “For those of you who think Sandy was brought in to fix the team – I don’t buy it. He was brought in to fix the team’s finances – because Fred’s greedy little fingers were caught in the Madoff cookie jar.

    Sandy’s moves, for the most part, involve dumping players to get the payroll down by 30%. He gets some prospects in return – and that’s normal when you are trading ML players for minor league players. You might even get some good prospects depending on how good the player is who you are dumping.

    Doesn’t make Sandy smart. It makes him a guy who will trade good players for players who are cheaper.

    In my opinion, the moment they didn’t resign Reyes I knew this wasn’t about the future. I twas only about money.”
• Fonzie13 December 22, 2012 at 4:43 pm

  One of if not the best Fan Shots ever on this site. Excellent, objective and fair analysis Dr Dooby. You basically summed up Aldersons brief tenure as Met GM in one post. Too bad there are still some here who can’t comprehend just how well you laid it out in layman’s terms.
• DrDooby December 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm

  The root of the entire argument basically is about whether the ” core” of Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Santana, KRod and eventually Dickey needed to be broken up or not.

  And obviously payroll and young talent available plays a large role as well in determining the decision.

  I guess we all can agree that the overall cost of these 6 players – be it in 2012 or 2013 or 2014 – is ( or would have been) about 80 million $ overall, some becoming more costly others less.n And I certainly believe one can make a pretty good case about this being a pretty solid core, even with KRod regressing and Santana becoming fragile.

  Now we get to the problem, i.e. the other 20 to 25 players needed to get through a season and how many $$ are available for them.
  Back in 2010 and 2011 – when this core group was closer to its prime, the roster was quite shallow.

  35+ million alone were spent on NPLs, ie non- performing pieces Bay, Castillo and Ollie P.
  So, that’s 115 million for 9 players.
  Then add the best six younger players, Niese, Ike, Tejada, Parnell, Gee and Murphy, who came in close to the league minimum then to make it 118 million $ combined. So that’s 15 players total – 12 of them more or less productive. But you still need at least a dozen or so more players to field a complete roster.

  An ” average” major leaguer cost(s) close to 3 million – do the math and you need 36 to 42 million $ to fill out the roster with average players. Adding things up, that leaves you with a projected payroll somewhere in the 155 to 160 million $ range to contend with the aforementioned core group, maybe closer to 140 million in 2012 when Perez & Castillo are off the books.

  If money hadn’t been an issue, then keeping the solid core together back then and going forward would have made a lot of sense. Likewise if the extra 36 to 42 million could mostly have been saved by having a bunch of league average young players making close to the minimum there wouldn’t have been much of a problem either.

  Unfortunately neither was the ownership group able to afford anywhere near a 150+ million $ payroll anymore nor was a lot of cheap help available from within – with all due respect to Josh Thole, Manny Acosta, Lucas Duda, Justin Turner or Chris Schwinden and others.

  So what do you do except for cursing at owners that can’t up the ante or previous administrations failing to create a wealth of major league ready quality young talent in time ?

  You inevitably will be forced to break up the core and at the same time start losing more expensive supporting cast players.

  While I understand and certainly share the frustration of the past 4 seasons, I am still waiting for a convincing argument how this massive problem could have been fixed without either getting new owners ( wishful thinking) or having to break this team up and build for 2014 and beyond….
  • Metsie December 22, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    Sorry dooby but thats NOT the argument anyone is making….

    What we are arguing is WITH those guys and names like Harvey, Davis, Tejada, Murphy, Niese, and Gee either here or about to be that there was ANY NEED to have a sell off of ALL of them (exception being Wright)…

    Or if we were in the SAME EXACT POSITION as the 94 Yankees who everyone seems to want to believe is where we going as opposed to where we were when Sandy took over.

    And if Trading them for KIDS is actually better than trading them for much better MLB players that could help that youth and performers win something other than a top 15 draft pick and a short season of basebal.

    All of this you guys are touting is based on the WRONG PREMISE that this team HAD nothing, Nothing in the pipeline and no prspects to get anyone without trading all your best players….

    Were there money issues? YEP, Why was that true? Because of what we paid Wright Reyes, Beltran and K-Rod or because we paid Bay and Santana who have had as much problem staying on the field as all those guys combined and even when they were did not really earn thier keep? a 25 Million Dollar No Hitter is great but Santana was hardly at the tops in the league of perfromance despite his tops in the league Salary.

    If money was the problem you solve it by purging the money of NON-PERFORMERS not the ones who earn their money and we didn’t do that….

    And while you will say it was impossible the same was said about the Yankees doing it with Burnett and they not only got rid of his salary got a few kids out of it as well!

    Boston did it in SPADES last season….So Impossible for you maybe but not any GM worth his salt which is basically what we are trying to get at here with this one trade reprive and rush to EVALUATE while the sentiment is high because of that trade.

    The bottomline here is what we did we did not HAVE to do, What we did SET US BACK, not spring us forward.

    We had a good set of kids and youth to build around ALREADY and we decided that because they had not come up THIS year or come up based on a promotion they got from Sandy that they were not worth building around….

    Well hate to break it to you guys but these ARE the guys we are going to be building around only they are 2-3 years OLDER now and will be 4 years older by the time you guys claim we SHOULD spend….
    And what will we spend it on?

    Those Beltrans and K-Rods and maybe even those Reyes that will (you HOPE) be around wen you finally open the checkbook when the truth is you already HAD THEM could have KEPT THEM and maybe won something this year or next without wasting those 4 years of youth to the guys you wasted while WAITING to build around….

    And as Hank said so well….
    If your worried about Money and not baseball you are not really interested in the best team on the field just the best team the Wilpons can afford….

    I’m not a Met fan because of who owns them or how affordable they are, I’m a fan because I want to see them win Baseball games….Not just 4 years frok now but EVERY YEAR!

    And if they had not just slashed like a guide in the amazon and instead made some SMART moves to get rid of wasted salary instead of worthwhile salary so they could get the little bits they needed than we would be looking at maybe winning our 2nd or 3rd WS in 2014 and 2015 instead of just the one you still can’t even say we are close to under your approach..
  • tlagee December 22, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Hey Dooby – thanks for the work you put in to this.

    When we speak about core I wouldn’t have included Santana, K-rod or Beltran. All those players are in the latter part of their careers and were never going to be the Mets near future.

    If they were on the club now it would be transitional until younger replacements could be found.Some of these guys like K-Rod and Bay and Santana because of injuries – were mistake signings – but only in retrospect.

    The core should have been Reyes and Wright and maybe include Tejada and Ike (if he can be more consistant).You could have built around Reyes and Wright. Reyes should have been locked up after the 2010 season – and we would have gotten him for a lot less than the Marlins paid – but that was during the height of the Madoff scandle and Fred couldn’t or wouldn’t cough up the funds for a very talented home grown player. It was that move that bothered me the most.

    What Sandy did was to dump all experienced transitional players and replace them with AAAA until he is figures out who to put in their place or hopes that we have short memories. The team was a joke for the whole second half of last year and we have dumped Bay (RIP) and traded our best pitcher since then. There is a good piece in today’s times about the Mets having no outfielders to start next year. The only move made was to resign half of the Reyes/Wright core that I wanted.

    We do have some interesting arms coming out of the minors who will be ready throughout the next three years. But, like all Mets fans who have gone through Generation K, the jury will be out until they have played three years in the ML. So Sandy will be long gone if most of them fail.

    Should the Mets Sustain a $150 million payroll? Not with the results that we were getting. But did we have to lop off a third of that payroll and put a AAAA team out there for the time being? No, we could have knocked the payroll down to the $130 million range and mixed in some FA’s to make the team compete.

    Over the past three year we had tens of millions of dollars come off the books and the team has made no move to put that money back into the 2013 club. we have more money coming off the books next year – but there is no indication that those funds will be put back into the team.

    It’s simple to argue all or nothing – $150 million versus $100 million. There could have been an acceptable middle ground. Instead, the Mets attendance has plumeted over the last two years – they have dropped about $100 million in potential attendance money ($54 million drop from 2009 last year – $45 million the year before). They are not reinvesting the money saved and its hurting them in the wallet. People don’t want to pay for a team that can’t compete.

    As someone wrote before, Citi Field is an expensive place to see a game – IMHO you better have a good team out there year in and year out or you are heading backwards financially.

    Right now, it’s a mess – with a very flawed team and a bunch of minor leaguers who MAY be good.
• Joey D. December 22, 2012 at 6:56 pm

  Already mentioned that that was a very fair assessment looking both ways though on some topics I do disagree with since there are two sides to many of those points.

  One point of contention was the team going nowhere when Sandy took over. If I agreed with that, I would probably be agreeing with Dr. D. down the line. I believe we did have a good club that needed some tweaking and thus we could have been competitive for the entire season than just through the all-star game the past two years.

  We must also remember that injuries decimated us in 2009 and 2010 so it didn’t mean that 2011 and 2012 could not have been their time. Certainly the two year process of liquidating ourselves of our top performers and going to the dollar store to replace them cemented that it was indeed not going to.

  Also question about slowing down the pace of development since one of many criticisms this past year was that due to our depleted outfield and pitching staff, Kirk, McHugh and others were indeed rushed up to quickly.

  As far as the overall minor league system, don’t forget that development also includes that PPPA mindset of Sandy which probably hurts more than help because it is conformist and not based on individual strengths and weaknesses.

  I always said Sandy inherited good building blocks from Omar and Omar inherited virtually nothing from Phillips and Duquette. So I guess because he had the financial resources to do, Omar was able to get a championship caliber set of “stop gaps” as he was taking steps to re-build the team too, which he also left to the one who took over for him.

  So to praise Sandy for what he is doing one should also give the same credit to Omar. To say Sandy could not have taken the same measures as Omar due to financial circumstances is correct as well. But to profess the moves made by Sandy (including the dumping of Reyes, Beltran, Pagan and Krod for nothing more than Zack Wheeler) were the correct ones to be taken, regardless if Sandy also had the money to spend like Omar – is wrong.

  Omar Minaya’s legacy isn’t totally that of the GM who lost control of the payroll by continuing the longtime tradition of “quick-fix” that was indeed the Mets Way. It was more looking for “stop gaps” while rebuilding the farm system so we can have more than just a David Wright, Jose Reyes and a Mike Pelfrey to show for it. Because he was allowed to, he got “expensive” players who still had a year or so of producing 100 percent whereas the stop gaps Sandy got were the “inexpensive” players who could only produce that fifty percent he mentioned. And that is really the only difference. And, as I asked, would he have had to take those expensive measures had he inherited the quality-type young players that were not there?

  So when putting things in perspective, Omar got the blame for the mistakes made the twenty years prior to his becoming the G.M. but did he really continue that tradition? Wouldn’t we all like to see Sandy to have given us a team like the 2006-2008 squads Omar did – which we now know was also for the moment, but nothing like only for the moment – while building for the future? He can be guilty of paying them too much or getting the wrong players perhaps, but not the cause of the team nearly going bankrupt.

  And again, talking in terms of KRod’s contract, outside the scope of the Madoff situation and it’s irrelevant. Since the payroll did not break the bank, the only point of contention is that one paid too much for him. The Mets were doing no different than the Yankees or Marlins when they simply just outbid everyone else. A correct move, where there were other relief options that could have been considered – yes, from a baseball standpoint that is a very valid question. Was it also simply wasting money by overpaying – no doubt it was. However, when the agreement was reached, the Mets didn’t see his contract and that bonus as a problem in the financial sphere of running a major league ball club in the biggest market in the country. If anything, the terms were more of a public embarrassment and the talk about overpaying him important only for those who think in terms of money ball, not for business people thinking in terms of profit.
  • DrDooby December 23, 2012 at 3:08 am

    A couple of points re: Joeye´s points:

    Yes, the 2009 and 2010 teams were ravaged by injuries and probably closer to 85 win teams than 75 win teams structurally. But the lack of depth in the organization became very obvious once the injuries happened – and led to averaging 75.5 wins in 09 and 10.
    And while the 2011 team got off to a nice start – they were ravaged by injuries too:
    Santana missed the entire season.
    Ike missed most of the season with the fractured ankle.
    Wright played through injuries, his performance suffering and also missed a lot of time.
    Reyes got hurt at the worst of possible times.
    And that team again failed to reach .500.
    And in 2012, 3/5ths of the opening day starting rotation were out for the season by mid / late July – or around the time of the newest collapse.
    So, injuries happen. Usually teams that get lucky or have a ton of depth or a world of talent structurally survive and reach the playoffs. The 2009 through 2012 had none of these. And odds are, it wasn´t going to get better in 2013 and 2014 with essentially the same cast of players, Alderson & Co. had inherited. Due to the money restrictions, keeping the core around – or rather supporting it with quality complementary players – wasn´t an option. And there wasn´t nearly as much in-house talent available as needed.

    re: Omar Minaya
    While he did inherit two budding young stars in Wright & Reyes, plus solid major leaguers such as Glavine, Benson, C.Floyd, M.Cameron and a sub 100 million $ payroll, the farm system left behind by Duquette, Phillips (and sort of himself) was terrible.
    Omar thought he´d be able to build a quick fix winner (which he did, trading away the few decent inherited prospects and signing top free agents) and replenish the system in time to take over when the veteran major league roster he assembled in 2005 / 2006 got old by 2009. Thus, the focus on drafting advanced, albeit often lower ceiling college players and at the same time making heavy investments in the International Free agent market both in terms of players and infrastructure. In 2006 I read an interview with Minaya about his visions of Citifield and he imagined pairing Reyes & Wright with Fernando Martinez & Carlos Gomez and Mike Pelfrey and Deolis Guerra anchoring the rotation.
    Omar mis-judged the time it would take for the Latin American pipeline he built to flow – closer to 8-9 years than the 4-5 years he had planned. And obviously the Madoff mess and the end of liberal spending also hadn´t been in his plans. However, the number of underperforming and / or backloaded contracts culminated at the worst possible of times.

    Still, the Mets should benefit from building the Latin American development program going forward, so Omar´s legacy willl remain an assist to the next Mets winner with an impressive group of Latin American kids – whether they were still brought in under his watch or under Alderson´s – moving up the levels and providing talent or trade bait for the Mets.

    Finally, re: rushing prospects, it´s one thing rushing high ceiling prospects ages 19 to 21 and possibly damaging their outlook and “rushing” (or rather promoting) low ceiling prospects in their mid 20s – such as Nieuwenhuis, McHugh or Valdespin before they are totally prepared. Which in Valdespin´s case may well take another 3 years until he matures (if ever).

    Again to summarize, there was neither enough money nor enough young talent (to trade or build with) available in 2010/2011/2012 to keep the entire “core” around or to surround it with a strong & deep enough supporting cast. That´s neither solely on Omar Minaya nor is it on Sandy Alderson.

    Now, Alderson´s job will be coming up with a new core to surround Wright (and Niese) with in time. He will have a clean financial slate from 2014 on and three full seaons on the job to rebuild the system and cash in veterans for higher end prospects. Will it work ? I´m optimistic it will but time will tell…
    • Joey D. December 23, 2012 at 12:14 pm

      Hi DrD,

      Very well stated indeed.

      But my points are about the moves Sandy took those prior winters to build up the club. That is what is important for Sandy could not have anticipated or be held responsible for Davis lost for the year, Wright a good part of the season along with Murphy and eventually Niese at the end of August.

      Those moves, many of us thought, were a disaster waiting. He put together the back end of a starting rotation and bullpen consisting of reclamation projects, discards and rule five players. Also, his idea to replace Castillo was Brad Emus (not Murphy or Turner as eventually occurred).

      In 2012, he gave up too much for a situational reliever in Rameriz, signed a reliever better suited for middle relief and named him his the closer…, you know the idea.

      So I was writing in terms of how Sandy prepared for the upcoming seasons – not the results. Both years the team played the first half better than anyone anticipated – again, not due to but rather in despite of – the new players he brought in and those he sent packing.

      As we mostly all agree, those moves were based on financial necessity. So we cannot hold Sandy responsible for something out of his control. But again, for those who claim his moves were made due more to insight and less financial restrictions – then the insight of his baseball people making the recommendations to him has been awful.

      That’s why I say the total sum of his moves from the beginning has not been based on talent but on the ledger books – as Sandy so stated during his stay in Oakland. Attached once again is that article in which he speaks of the decision to sent McGwire packing.

      http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/McGwire-trade-may-haunt-A-s-3070724.php

      That is what I believe still represents his thinking with the Mets today. In Oakland, he mentions that he would not have been able to sign other players had he kept McGwire which is correct, however, the author did raise the question of how much better the team would have been had Marc been retained.

      It was due to either Oakland not having any money or Sandy looking at the projected attendance and thus not wanting to spend it. That same mindset applies to the Mets today. Beltran, KRod, Reyes, Pagan, Dickey – all sent packing for the same reasons as the steroid user and nothing more – unless Sandy was psychic and saw the injuries coming before they occurred.
      • DrDooby December 24, 2012 at 2:46 am

        Just a brief look back at the off-season of 2010/2011:
        The Mets – entering that off-season – had financial commitments of roughly 130 million $, most of it to J.Santana – O.Perez – F.Rodriguez – L.Castillo – J.Reyes – D.Wright – J.Bay – C.Beltran and to a lesser degree Dickey – Pelfrey – Igarashi – Pagan, coming off back-to-back sub .500 seasons.

        Ownership was already struggling for money with the Madoff fiasco and decreasing revenue. And Sandy Alderson received a budget of 10 to a max of 15 million $ to fill out the roster.
        Which at that time needed at least one if not two SP, half a bullpen, a backup C and almost an entire bench, i.e. a grand total of about 8 players easily.

        There was no immediate help on the farm except for possibly Lucas Duda, Nick Evans, Justin Turner and Dillon Gee . Consensus was that rushed youngsters like Mejia, Tejada and F.Martinez were better off starting the 2011 season at AAA. And that Gee should not be penciled in for a guaranteed rotation spot.

        So, having to shop in the “fruits & nuts” section, Alderson spent his little allowance on:
        LH Chris Capuano
        RH Chris Young
        RH Jason Isringhausen
        LH Tim Byrdak
        RH Trevor Buchholz
        RH DJ Carrasco
        C Ronnie Paulino
        IF Willie Harris
        OF Scott Hairston
        plus selected 2b Brad Emaus & RH Pedro Beato in the RULE V (while losing RH Elvin Ramirez in the same draft).

        With those moves, the Mets at least were able to field a full 25-man roster – and also had the option of opening a revolving door of options at 2b and trying to find enough relievers out of the newly added options to compete with holdovers such as Manny Acosta or Ryota Igarashi.

        Now, I don´t understand how the 2011 Mets should have been turned into a legit contender with a shoestring budget of 10-15 million $ and over half a dozen open roster spots to fill with no in-house options available.

        And of course, Alderson did “sabotage” the Mets status as a fringe contender in mid July, dumping Francisco Rodriguez (who probably would have blown up the entire 2012 budget, had the option vested and quite possibly could have been the final nail into the Wilpons´ ownership coffin) and trading Beltran too. Though the injuries to Wright, Davis, Reyes and Murphy, plus Johan Santana not returning as hoped did their part anyway.
        • Joey D. December 24, 2012 at 12:52 pm

          Hi DrD,

          That is the point we are trying to make – the entire re-building effort that started in 2010/11 was a fiscal conclusion, not a baseball one. And it had little to do with the roster payroll for that in itself would not be the cause for the Mets to downsize their minor league system draft picks, scouting on top of ten percent of all their non-baseball operations.

          Certainly, the expenses of running a big market baseball club does not match the revenue coming in, for even with reduced attendance at lower ticket prices, television and merchandising that revenue is a gold mine.

          And the roster payroll would not have been cause to hire the financial consulting firm Deloitte CRG. We’ve used them and I know how expensive just the part of their fee to simply audit one of our capital projects is, so one can only imagine how much it cost the Mets to hire them to re-structure the entire organization. Again, CRG was not called in because of the roster payroll.

          So that is why the moves being made have little to do with any plan or vision. The Mets still could not get financial institutions to re-finance their loans because the franchise was deemed to risky so Sterling Equities had to use their portion of SNY as collateral instead.

          As long as the moves Sandy has made are put in that perspective, there will be no argument. It’s with those who contend that Sandy and his people looked at what they had and decided it needed to be dismantled and re-built instead of being tweaked and letting nature do it’s course by slowly replacing aging veterans with fresh blood when the time called for it.

          It’s not even a case of Sandy’s people trying to do as best as they could on a shoestring budget – for Sandy has said that just because he has the money (questionable to take him at his word for anything) doesn’t mean he’s going to spend it. I doubt that is because there are little outside sources of players worth that money.

          So there is no excuse for what happened to this team – except that they suddenly lost most all of their non-baseball financial investments which was also providing a healthy annual return and suddenly found themselves on the verge of financial failure. No measures can be taken to protect the financial assets of one so heavily invested in a fraud.- which would result in more profound an affect than the money wasted on a Castillo and Perez or overpaying for others.

          Finally, they are not even rebuilding the proper way that a baseball club should – adding to the young talent they already have through a combination of obtaining prospects (which they did) to replace their older stars as they stop producing and not before that (which they didn’t) along with quality free agents (not even worth discussing) and trades based on talent and not money (i.e., two players for just $400,000 more than the price of one like the Pagan).

          It’s because the Wilpons still need Sandy Alderson to enable them to retain ownership as they begin paying off their debts as to why things are the way they are. It’s not a baseball thinking mentality, it’s a financial one to just simply allow one to hang on.

          Besides, didn’t the Rangers show that a team even being bankrupt could go to the world series? Just shows how worse our situation was that these were the steps that had to be made.
• Herb G December 22, 2012 at 10:24 pm

  Excellent assessment of Sandy’s tenure to date. The many positives are well stated. On the negative side, I have three comments.

  1. Re letting Jose go, I have to believe that Sandy thought he was going to be competitive with Jose at season’s end. He’s neither foolish nor naive. When the free spending Marlins swooped in with their excessive offer, heavily backloaded to protect themselves, Sandy was sideswiped. The fact that there was no other competition for a player of Reyes’s caliber supports Alderson’s judgement. If Miami wasn’t moving into a new stadium and looking to make a huge splash in the free agent market, Jose would be wearing orange and blue today.

  2. As you said, the Pagan trade looked good at the time. Sandy really can’t be faulted because the players he got failed to perform as expected. Torres is not Pagan, (and that’s why Sandy was able to get Ramirez added to the deal) but Torres should have performed better than he did, based on past experience. Similarly, Ramirez’s track record would lead you to believe that he would be a stabilizing force in the pen, reliable in late inning relief. That neither panned out, while Angel excelled, can be chalked up to happenstance, and not Alderson’s misjudgement.

  3. I have to agree that Sandy has not been as aggressive as I might like him to be in pursuing waiver opportunities and minor league signings. Just this week he passed on Scott Van Slyke, who could have added some right handed power to the mix, and filled in for Ike against lefties as well as handling corner outfield duties in a heavily left handed outfield. Perhaps Sandy is protective of the spots on the 40 man roster, but Van Slyke could have been a valuable role player, even if he started the season in Las Vegas. While other teams have been signing minor league free agents and inviting them to spring training, Sandy has been dormant. There are still several out there, and I hope someone lights a fire under Sandy before we miss out on opportunities to build for the long term.
• DrDooby December 24, 2012 at 2:10 pm

  Joey, absolutely agree. Cutting cost and rebuilding was the only available option. But I also believe it was also the right option with the goal of sustainable winning in mind.
  Because if money had been no issue, pretty sure Jon Niese, Matt Harvey, Ruben Tejada& Co would have become trade bait.
  Maybe the Mets keep Beltran & Reyes, sign Prince Fielder, trade Niese, Ike and Harvey for Gio González and Trevor Cahill – and would head into 2013 with a 170 million $ payroll – and Knowledge that the run will end in a year or two…
  • Joey D. December 24, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Hi DrD.,

    Glad we agree on what caused the problem, however, we can only speculate on what would have been the end result had money not been at issue and there was no Sandy Alderson but rather Omar stayed on for the last year of his contract.

    it were the former general managers who traded off their prospects in, I guess, the belief they could always buy players when to be replaced. However, those were their mistakes. We cannot say that would have been what Omar did based on his own track record for

    1) He didn’t have a farm system to rely on when he became GM

    2) Of that group, he traded what were passed as our top prospects and, except for Joe Smith, he wasn’t burned because they never reached the potential the Mets had expected – or perhaps what Omar felt they wouldn’t.

    3) He had the financial resources, therefore, to go for the quick fix as did previous general managers, however, he put together a great team of veterans that just barely missed it three times running. Perhaps he could have gotten better ones instead, but that is the issue at this time.

    4) Those veteran players were also indeed stop-gaps until the farm system which he and his people put together started to produce. Even before the injuries that set in, the Mets were chosen by many odds makers as the favorites to win the world series in 2009.

    5) 2010 was the year when the transition began, with the old stars out of here and we saw the financial problem starting to effect the Mets. Bay was not Omar’s plan “A” as he stated – a starting pitcher was. He also obtained the inexpensive players Sandy was forced to a year later for stop-gaps like Jacobs, Matthews, Baharras, etc.

    Now I think this is where we hit a divide. If he had the money, would Omar have done like his previous counterparts and traded Davis and others for more established players and was it because he had no money to go that he didn’t go after more established but aging veterans.

    Or was he not going to anyway as the kids were becoming ready?

    He did call up Tejada to slowly take over second as Castillo began being platooned and/or benched. He did call up Davis. We saw Thole called up in the middle of the season and Duda in August. These were players that were selected under his watch.

    He was never in the position to have a good farm system and money at the same time. What we do know is that he did have the money to put together a very good veteran for the short-term and a farm system for the long-term before the Wilpons began to financially bleed. Would he have continued the Met tradition of then trading those prospects – we really don’t know for he was never given the opportunity.

    Because he did put more effort into the farm system, to anticipate that was just for trading might be blaming the ghosts of general managers past on Omar.