9
2012
Mets Trades of the Past: Amazins’ Get Frank Viola
An article by Barry Duchan
While we wait to see if the Mets trade R.A. Dickey and if so, what they get in return, I thought it would be interesting to look back at a trade where the Mets acquired the previous season’s A.L. Cy Young Award winner.
Of course, we know R.A. Dickey is unique because of his age, his specialty pitch, and his back story, but all along I assumed if the Mets did trade him, they could hope to come up with a package of similarly rated players as those they once gave up for Viola, although the emphasis would be on position players, rather than pitchers coming back.
The 1988 Mets had won 100 games and their loss to the Dodgers in the league championship series was unexpected and greatly disappointing for a team that fans thought was going to be a powerhouse for years. In 1989, Dwight Gooden began to experience shoulder trouble and the Mets were hovering just above the .500 mark at the July 31 trade deadline. They had already made one questionable trade during the season sending Lenny Dykstra and Roger McDowell to the Phillies for Juan Samuel of whom manager Davey Johnson told GM Frank Cashen “get me Samuel and we’ll win the pennant”. Now they were looking to add a starting pitcher to replace Gooden in the rotation that was otherwise still very strong with David Cone, Ron Darling, Sid Fernandez, and Bob Ojeda.
Viola was the Twins’ ace, but had gotten off to a rough start with an 8-12 record and an ERA close to 4.00, over a run a game over his previous season. What did it take to get Viola ? A package of 5 pitchers :
Rick Aguilera, an established, but still young major leaguer who had been used by the Mets exclusively in relief in 1989, mostly as a setup man for closer Randy Myers.
David West, a lefty who was once considered the best young pitcher in the Mets’ farm system, but who had been found wanting on the major league level.
Kevin Tapani, a young pitcher who had been acquired by the Mets along with Wally Whitehurst when the Mets sent Jesse Orosco to the Dodgers. Tapani had been the Mets’ most effective AAA pitcher, but had no place in the Mets’ rotation.
Jack Savage and Tim Drummond, two mid-level prospects with AAA experience.
Although Viola only went 5-5 for the Mets in ’89 and the team finished second, he did win 20 games a year later as the Mets again finished second in the division. In 1991, Viola was 13-15 for the Mets before leaving as a free agent. Meanwhile, Aguilera established himself as one of the best closers in baseball, saving over 300 games after leaving the Mets, after a brief trial as a starter when he first went to the Twins. Tapani became a dependable starter for the Twins for the next 6 years and won 143 games in a 13-year major league career.
West was basically a disappointment based on his initial promise, but he still managed to appear in over 200 major league games in a career that lasted until 1998. He had one particularly solid year with the Phillies as a lefty specialist.
Neither Savage nor Drummond made any impact in the major leagues, so their value in the trade as throw-ins was negligible.
So, in summary, the Mets did get a Cy Young winner who gave them 2 1/2 years of quality pitching, but in the long term, they certainly gave up more than they got. Nevertheless, it wasn’t a bad gamble at the time, because the Mets felt that a “pro” like Viola could lead them to a pennant and weren’t about to turn over a starting spot to a rookie like Tapani.
Now, all these years later, the Mets find themselves in an opposite position, where they are looking for young, potential impact players for a proven Cy Young winner. When I hear rumors that other teams won’t even give up one top prospect for someone like Dickey who can put them over the top, I can’t understand it and the Viola deal is a pretty good example of why I feel that way.
About the Author: Barry Duchan
I've been following the Mets since 1962. Have to admit I was a Yankee fan as a kid, but I found it to be so much more interesting to see how a young team could build itself up rather than following a team where the season didn't really begin until October. I remember them all - Casey, Marv, ChooChoo, Don Bosch, The Stork, etc. As the years went on, I became more and more of a Mets fan, and a Yankee hater once Steinbrenner and Billy Martin entered the picture. After retiring, I relocated with my family from Long Island to Chapel Hill, NC in 2005. I spend a lot of my time now checking out all the various Mets blogs. Fortunately, I still get to watch almost all of the Mets games (except those that are blacked out here).
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Viola lost it pretty quickly. omething to take into consideration with RA too.
Sweet Music! I loved Viola even before he came to the Mets. When we got him I thought we would have a run of playoff appearances during his stay. It never worked out that way. He is still with the Mets as a pitching coach in one of the lower levels and who knows, we could see him replace Warthen in the near future. He was always a classy guy and a a native New Yorker.
I would much, much rather have Viola as pitching coach then Warthen.
Why? What has he proven? Not saying Warthen is great or anything but we had a good rotation last year and he now boasts a Cy Young award winner under his watch.
Look what he’s done over the last 2 years for the Brooklyn & Savannah pitching staffs and ask that question again. Unlike Warthen, I don’t recall Viola ruining any arms.
Again, I’m pretty indifferent about Warthen, but to make him the cause of Pelf’s or Sanatana’s arm injury is crazy. Pitching is unnatural act. If Viola does it long enough he too will have pitchers blow their arms out under his care. I don’t think Warthen is great, I would leave that only to Duncan (with Dave Righetti approaching that caliber) I’m sure there are some real bad but they don’t stick around long enough. I think Warthen is on the good side of the middle. Pitching coaches go from great to goat and back from one year to the next. I mean Rick Peterson was considered an all time great and it was a coup when we got him. Now the guy can’t get a job. Same can be said for Mazzoni.
Actually, Peterson now works for the O’s as the Director of Pitching Development. Mazzone? Got me on that one. At one point, he was very open to coming to the Mets to be the pitching coach.
Mazzoni is happily retired. I dont recall where I read it but someone was interviewing him and ask if he had an interest in coming back and he said no. But then again, Micheal Jordan retired how many times. So you never know.
Except Warthen doesnt work with Dickey so to give him credit is inaccurate.
MATT, U DO REALIZE THAT NEARLY EVER STAFF PITCHER IS A WARTHEN FAN, PETITIONING TO ETAIN IM WHENEVER HIS JO SECURITY IS UP FOR REVIEW. SANTANA, DICKEY, ETC. BTW I CAN’T REMEMBER ANYONE OTHER THAN RUBE W. GETTING THAT SURE OF LOYALTY FROM HIS CHARGES AS A MET COACH.
O THE SUBJECT OF VIOLA Vs DICKEY PKGS TO BE GARNERED.
THE PRIME DIFFERENCE IS VIOLA WAS 28,29 BEING SOUGHT BY NYM WHILE DICKEY IS 38 BEING PEDALED BY NYM ON VIRTUALLY EVERY STREET CORNER LIKE COD @ 5:00AM ON SOUTH STREET.
PERSONALLY, WHILE I LOVED ACQUIRING SWEET MUSIC, I’D ALWAYS REGRETTED THE PRICETAG PAID AS THOSE 5 PITCHERS REPRESENTED THE BEST OF OUR POTENTIAL FUTURE & EVERYONE KNOWS LOCATION :REAL ESTATE :: PITCHING:MLB OR IN EGLISH LOCATION IS TO REAL ESTATE AS PITCHING IS TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. SIMPLE RATIO EQUATION & 5 PITCHERS SPANNING 3 GENERATIONS OF DEVELIOPMENT UIS FAR TOO MUCH TO PASY FOR 1 SOP. IT’S LIKELY A FAR MORE EQUAL COMPARISON TO COMPARE THE VIOLA ACQUISITION PRICE TO THE ONE MINAYA RENDERED FOR SANTANA ESP AS THE TEAMS INVOLVED ARE IDENTICAL TO START WITH
ESSENTIALY THE METS’ PITCHING DEPTH WAS STRIP-MINED TO ACQUIRE VIOLA. BAD DEAL OVER TIME
let it be stated that randy myers and rick aguilera the were the last home-grown bullpen studs we drafted…
randy myers was part of the nasty boys
rick aguilera was an absolute beast in minny
both helped solidy world series winning bullpens
there are about 9 things we need to do before we can even talk about contending…and building a strong bullpen from within is one of them.
*solidify
Just,
I totally agree with you. It seems tht these days bullpens are built mostly of retreads from another team or just failed starters. What happened to bringing up a guy and exposing him to the bigs via the pen? Bullpen has become a total guessing game.
a pitching staff has 12-13 players…a bullpen coach…a pitching coach…and various staff members that all play a factor…
if a SP only gives u 4.2 innings a game…that stresses ur BP
if a SP gives u 7.1 innings a game…it can make a mediocre BP look great….
if u have a poor catcher who cant block pitches in the dirt….that affects the effectisveness of certain pitchers….
infield and outfield defense also contribute into the outcome…
if u have a groundball pitcher who has no faith in his infield, and goes away from his groundball inducing pitches in favor of his weaker pitches….he gives up more flyball outs that turn into HR
( Mike Pelfrey )
so many factors go into the results….
this is why in my opinion, a catcher who is great defensively, calls a great game, knows his staff really well is worth much more than one is who poor behind the plate but hits well
this is why the rays get a jose molina to work with their staff and their catchers…
Sandy’s refusal to deal with the catching problem in my opinion shows his lack of knowledge or interest.
Going with Mike Nikeaus as ur 2012 opening day backup catcher sealed the deal for me.
Inexperienced Josh Thole + More inexperienced Mike Nikeaus was a recipe for disaster.
Not a surprise that our bullpen was ranked 3rd to last in ERA this year and again lost over 25 games
the last time our pen had a great year was when we had Paul LoDuca behind the plate…the last time our pen even had a decent year was when Rod Barajas was behind the plate…Both were ranked as good catchers to work with. Rod also helped mentor Josh thole that year…when he left, josh’s performance dipped drastically from a defensive perspective.
Oh how I hated that Juan Samuel trade.
I wanted to vomit when that trade went down. I was literally sick over it.
I damn near cried that day…
lenny was my favorite met of all time
I used to crash into my fence catching fly balls pretending to be him
What very good catcher is available at any price? I didn’t see too many solid choices this off season.
Not to be a starter…but more of a mentor to either thole, shoppach, or whoever we bring up from the minors ( juan centeno )
Sports Illustrated 1993
“It’s almost like people are miserable, and they want to bring you down to their level.”
- kevin mcreynolds – on NY fans
When the Mets traded him to Toronto, on Aug. 27, 1992, Cone called it “the end of the arrogant Mets. The end of the mid-’80s, flourishing Mets.” When Cone was asked that day if he knew how that end came about, he replied, “Well, yeah, the heart and soul was bred out of it. Numbers and production have taken a front seat while what a guy’s intangibles are, what personality he brings to the Mets, is left on the backseat. You need people who are fixtures, with personality and guts. When things are down, those are the type of guys who fight back.”
There is no more damning statistic of how soft the Mets turned than this: They have a losing record in one-run games every year after 1988. They have been bullies in games decided by three or more runs in that time, with a .539 percentage in such games (215-184). In one- and two-run games, though, they have played .417 baseball (171-239). Trying to explain the disparity, Cone once attributed it to the Mets’ “tight booty.”
“We were desperate to have a Latin on the team,” says one Met official, “especially with the great Latin American population in the city. We thought New York would love him.”
Problem was, Samuel hated New York and was even less comfortable in center-field. Since trading Dykstra and then Wilson (for Jeff Musselman) six weeks later, the Mets have auditioned 17 players in centerfield, and none has held the job for a full season.
By July 31, 1989, the Mets were seven games out. They panicked again. McIlvaine traded Aguilera, Tapani, West and two lesser pitching prospects to the Minnesota Twins for Viola. Again Cashen would come to regret his endorsement.
With McIlvaine as director of scouting in the early ’80s, the Mets built the foundation for their winning teams from a superlative farm system. A snapshot of their minor league system at the start of the ’83 season included Aguilera, Dykstra, Gooden, Magadan, McDowell, Mitchell, Myers, Strawberry, Mark Carreon, Ron Darling, Tim Leary, Randy Milligan, Greg Olson, Calvin Schiraldi, Walt Terrell and other future big leaguers. Since the time Scioscia hit that home run off Gooden (and as McIlvaine had become more involved on the major league level), the Mets have not had a single player in their system who has 100 hits in a big league season and only one pitcher who has won as many as 10 games in a given year. That pitcher, Tapani, has done so four times—for Minnesota.
“I didn’t want to give up Aguilera,” McIlvaine says. “He was just getting comfortable closing games. West had a good arm, but I knew he didn’t have what it takes inside. Tapani is the one who surprised me. I thought he was a five-inning starting pitcher who couldn’t go two days in a row if you put him in the bullpen.”
The Mets’ farm system was drying up, and here was McIlvaine squandering what little was left. “This one,” he said at the time, “could backfire right in my face if Viola doesn’t perform up to expectations.” The Mets made up just one game on the first-place Cubs after the trade, with Viola going 5-5. He spent two more years in New York—going 38-32 overall, including a combined 13-20 in August, September and October—before leaving as a free agent. “That’s the kind of thinking,” Wilpon says of the shortsighted trade, “that doesn’t work out. Frank never worked out, to put us over the top.”
Viola was tormented by the carousel of grotesque fielders the Mets annually put on display. “I’m not surprised to see what’s happened to the Mets,” says Viola, who bolted after the 1991 season to sign with the Boston Red Sox. “I saw it coming. What happened is they had too many people out of position. And I mean starting from the front office on down.”
If the mets could get a return for Dickey like the twins got for Viola, I would be very happy. Viola gave one good year. Aggie and Tapani gave many good years and a world championship. It still make.s me sad to remember the dismemberment of the 80s mets. Every trade was terrible, but they were right on the strawman. Cashen saw the destructive behavior and knew it was about to blow up
Back to the present – A young, established player (like upton)and some good prospects would be just the ticket. People keep bringing up Dickeys age, but age doesnt translate the same for a knuckleballer. Besides, how old was viola when he went down the toilet? Or Jason Bay? many other examples are out there. The bottom line is Grenke is off the board and there are still lots of teams looking for an ace and there just arent many to be had. Somebody is going to cave in and give us that nice package for RA i am sure of it. BTW nice article, Barry.
Carson
Familia
Mejia
Tapia
(Matz if ever healthy)
This could be the core of a Mets’ homegrown BP that others speak above above. Perhaps our own “nasty” homegrown pen.
As for the mid-80s Mets, what was more exciting than Keith hussling to grab a sac bunt to throw the lead runner out at 3d or 2d base – he was the perfect leader of that team.
No Leathersich? Chism? Bradford? Walters? Kolarek? Armando Rodriguez?
I wouldn’t say a nasty homegrown pen, but there’s definitely potential within. The Mets should convert Mark Cohoon into a reliever, most specifically into a LOOGY.
I’m on the fence about Carson. He never really got a fair shake on what he could do on the ML level, being sent back and forth between the minors and majors, but I’ll say this: should he shake his control issues, he’ll be a plus second lefty with Edgin.
Mejia should get his shot as a starter. No more games. A look into some footage and there’s something about his windup and delivery I dislike that the Mets should look into. He lacks that leg drive in his delivery that will take him into the next step. I’m surprised no one has yet to point that out. You see the leg drive with Harvey, but not Mejia? He’d probably be better with a Gallardo-esque type of delivery. Oh yeah, dropping the curve and changeup and developing the 12-6 curve and a circle-change would be beneficial.
Matz? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think he hasn’t even pitched a full season in A ball. He’s extremely talented but he also is having some setbacks with his injuries.
Sloat – you are correct – he has been one breakdown after the next …but we are due to get lucky
, right?
In the case of Matz, I hope so!!! From all account he’s got an exceptionally live arm.