11
2012
Believe It Or Not, The Mets Have Gotten Worse
An article by 
It’s really hard to believe, but the Mets have gotten worse this off-season. They haven’t done anything to improve on their 2012 season. In fact, they lost a couple of players that helped them to their mediocre performance in 2012.
There was a reason why the Mets waited until the Winter Meetings to sign David Wright to his extension, and have him stroll into that press conference in the awesome new uniform. All of a sudden, the fan base was focused on David Wright and the cool new uniforms, and not the fact that the Mets did nothing to improve this entire off-season.
This winter has been nothing but a diversion. Sandy Alderson was trapped in a corner surrounded by Mets fans asking for “significant changes,” and he pointed to the sky and said “look, what’s that?” We all looked, and he snuck away. It was a very clever move by Alderson to sign Wright and make a spectacle of it at the Winter Meetings.
He knew from day one that Wright was re-signing. But if they signed him before the Winter Meeting, everyone would have been questioning what the Mets accomplished during the meetings in order to improve the team. Everyone gave them a free pass after Wright was signed.
Locking up David did nothing to improve the Mets in the short-term. It probably didn’t do anything to improve the team in the long-term. It was all just an illusion. Sure, David will probably retire as the greatest Mets player to ever wear the blue and orange. That makes some people happy. But most fans would be happier with progress. What we are seeing is not progress.
R.A. Dickey was great in 2012, but trading him was one of the few opportunities the Mets had to improve this off-season. Unfortunately, the Mets blew it by forgetting he is 38-years old. There is still too much risk for teams to take on a 38-year old pitcher, regardless if he won the Cy Young award or is a knuckleballer.
Being a knuckleballer doesn’t help sell his age, it simply clouds his success as teams wonder if a knuckleballer can maintain that level of success year after year. So while the Mets would have been able to sell high on Dickey coming off his great year, they were never in the driver’s seat. The fact that the Mets are holding strong at two years for $20M, and are hesistant to give Dickey the extra $6M he is requesting says it all.
If all the Mets accomplish this off-season is signing two players that were already under contract for 2013, then how can we say it was a successful winter? We can’t. In fact, we have gone backwards.
The issues in the outfield have not been addressed, and with the potential loss of Hairston, have gotten worse. The bullpen is still a giant question mark – an even bigger question mark is why Bobby Parnell was labeled “untouchable.” The catching situation is as nauseating as ever. It begs me to ask, what is the direction of this team?
Are the Mets rebuilding? It sure doesn’t seem so. Do they have a win now mentality? Absolutely not. What’s the deal?
If the Mets re-sign Hairston, that means the Mets who were supposed to undergo “significant changes” would have done nothing more than sign three players from the 2012 team that only won 71 games. That isn’t very promising.
At least in 2012 we had the excitement of the first no-hitter in Mets history and the magical season of R.A. Dickey to help the fan base get through the season.
What do we have to look forward to in 2013? Oh yeah…those awesome new uniforms.
About the Author: Mitch Petanick
136 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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There was a reason why the Mets waited until the Winter Meetings to sign David Wright to his extension, and have him stroll into that press conference in the awesome new uniform. All of a sudden, the fan base was focused on David Wright and the cool new uniforms, and not the fact that the Mets did nothing to improve this entire off-season”
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
“He knew from day one that Wright was re-signing. But if they signed him before the Winter Meeting, everyone would have been questioning what the Mets accomplished during the meetings in order to improve the team. Everyone gave them a free pass after Wright was signed”
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow it was so peaceful over here yesterday I thought you were banned. Welcome back, it was really odd without the daily diatribe about Wright and the FO.
when you can’t speak/write anything eloquently you do this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And you can’t this^ your own comments. It’s the equivalent of high five’ing the air or saluting the core in the mirror.
‘saluting the core in the mirror’ LOL
Chuckle of the day.
and little did you know, 2 of the biggest sandy supporters right on the crime scene making sure their lord doesn’t get blasted, i am sure SRT will come with some bogus excuse as to why moves are not being made… Too early or teams haven’t done anything yet… and the other, well, just come in to this blog to instigate, nothing baseball related, yet somehow JOE D bans bayonne but allowed this little troll to come in here from the desert to just instigate and antagonized people…
You really need to take a chill pill, Alex. Your one day hiatus did nothing to improve your personal anger towards a baseball team.
I need to chill?? But you encouraging that little kid from the desert behavior’s is acceptable right? it’s ok for you to LOL on every taunting comment he makes and every instigation he makes right? Just like your leader TRS was doing when kingman used to come here JUST to instigate and to rile people up, meanwhile he was LOL all the way to the bank up until JOE D ban his ass and trs saw how serious it was. Tell me, what does salty bring to the table baseball related? ALl he does is wait for me or bayonne to go ahead and try to bait us with his stupid ass comments. yet somehow, bayonne is ban while the likes of him roam around here like nothing’s happening.. IT’s f’ing BS that’s what it is…
What the hell are you talking about?
You are just one angry Met fan. And I refuse to get into a pissing contest with you, Alex. Move it along already.
The whole BLAME THE WILPONS bullcrap you used to used can’t be used anymore as everyone is seeing what we’ve seen for years about your precious front office.. have a wonderful day srt
Sandy sucks
The Wilpons suck
The End
^THIS^’
Just, you have a great talent to break down complicated issues into their simpliest forms.
Sigh…yeah, you too Alex.
I will agree with your comment above. Total PR move to show they did something while they sit on their hands. The off-season is slowly slipping away and it looks like back to the scrap heap for this team even though they supposedly free’d up money to us.
‘Total PR move to show they did something while they sit on their hands.’
Agree…very convenient.
I did not even equate the timing of David’s contract extension to that of a public relations move but no doubt it does resemble this organization when it comes to duping and deception.
Anyone know how season ticket sales are doing?
is it just me or does anyone else think of a 4 year old retard everytime we read “THIS” ^^^^^^^^
lol, pathetic, well THE CORE , and for the article , mets have still time left ???? i thought so
If it is true that the Mets turned down a similar package to what the Royals traded for James Shields and Wade Davis for Jon Niese and Zack Wheeler, then I believed the Mets erred greatly.
http://metsblog.com/metsblog/royals-asked-for-wheeler-and-niese-for-myers/
Here is why:
1. Everything anyone can really like about Zack Wheeler, one can also really like about Will Myers. They are both young, cost-controlled for 6-7 years, and have the ability and potential to be stars. The difference here is that Myers is arguably the best hitting prospect in baseball, who flashed power in the Minors not seen since the 1960s. People love Wheeler and rightfully so, but he’s in the class of best pitching prospects with Bauer, Walker, and Bundy. There’s a difference. Some might put Oscar Taveras in the class with Myers, I don’t. Not right now anyway.
2. This is more than a pitching vs. hitting discussion. This is a chance to add talent to your organization by trading from a position of strength to boost an area of weakness. Look at the Mets in 2013 and beyond, what do we need more of…pitching or RH power and OF help??
3. The you can never have enough pitching dies right here for me. I’m not even sure we lose pitching in this deal. Yes you lose Wheeler and Niese, but you add Odorizzi who is MLB ready and has better prospect resume than Niese ever did. It’s not to say he will be better than Niese, but he might, or he might be at least as good, but for sure…he’s got a decent resume and he’s ready now. Also, you add Montgomery, who saw his light fade a lot this year. But here’s the thing, Montgomery comes as a young pitcher, who throws hard, and struggles with control. The same could be said about Wheeler, who the Mets “fixed” , and Wheeler struggled at a lower level in the Minors. Montgomery is also a LH who throws mid 90s. It’s a lottery ticket, but after fixing Wheeler’s mechanics (or more accurately letting him go back to what he was comfortable with), it’s a risk I’d be willing to let the Minor League coaches wrestle with and hopefully fix.
4. This trade makes the Mets better now and in the future. Adding Myers to this lineup would be unbelievable. Your 3-6 could conceivably be Wright-Davis-Myers-Duda/Pierzynski (see below). You could also add a veteran starter, if you were worried Odorizzi wasn’t ready, or if you wanted to guarantee Montgomery a full year in AAA.
5. Myers frees up the need to buy an outfield bat and allows you to focus on upgrading at Catcher by adding Pierzynski. This trade allows you to keep your Cy Young winner, re-sign him, and move forward. This trade gives you additional power to the system in Patrick Leonard as well.
6. Proposed Rotation (Dickey, Santana, Harvey, Gee, Lannan/Odorizzi). Knocking on the door come July (Montgomery, Mejia, Familia).
7. Proposed Lineup (Kirk-Murphy-Wright-Davis-Myers-Pierzynski-Duda-Tejada).
I really think Niese should not be moved for anything less than a Proven ML commodity. He is way way too valuable. I understand why the rotation is seen as a point of strength; however, I believe we should be holding on until some of these guys are really ready, like KC did with Odo. I would rather see them trade Wheeler and Mejia for a prospect return.
Hank all really awesome points, but I’m with Nathan on this one in regards to Niese. When I look at the rotation Niese really is that anchor. He’s not a ace by any stretch of the imagination but he is young, fearless and keeps you in games. Also the fact that he is a lefty makes him a stronger commodity. I really don’t follow the minor’s enough to know about Myers but he sounds like he would have been an amazing fit, but to lose two young primary rotation guys just isn’t worth it in my book. Wheeler plus anyone else, all for it except for Niese.
i actually agree with hank on this one. Of course you are betting on Myers being the real deal, but is that any different than betting on Wheeler to be it?
But he really had me hooked with the sign AJ component. That makes such perfect logical sense for the Mets to do right now, I can’t believe the idea is not getting more play.
Well Hank I have to disagree on many points….
Not on any related to the players we would get but the assumptions being made regarding the Pitching and it’s strength….
First off we are not strong in the Pitching dept we are about ADEQUATE in Pitching.
Santana is barely adequate at this point and will need replacing if not this season then definitly next when his contract expires….
Wheeler is the hedge there and while we all project high on him he is still an unproven commodity.
Gee is also a slight question mark after his layoff and Harvey did well but will he do what he did for a full season against MLB pitching?
Any percieved “STRENGTH” you might think we have would leave the second you traded Niese let alone Wheeler thrown on top of that.
Your 2014 Rotation would consist of:
Dickey (IF we extend him)
Harvey (Unproven but promising)
Gee (see above)
You would need to pray that Mejia and Familia get thier crap together to even HAVE a 5 man rotation!
Making a trade for Niese and Wheeler would make you weak in pitching again and we have already seen that a weak rotation can kill even the mightiest of lineups as it did in 2006-2008!
We are not dealing from strength we are dealing from adequacy and currently have a rotation that barring our own stupidity will not be something we need to make a major trade to fix in the next 3 or 4 years.
We could live with trading Dickey if it meant we kept Niese and Wheeler because then you at least have two (Mejia and Familia) to try and fill that 5th rotation spot and the loser in that race to be your spot emergency starter should someone get hurt so you can avoid starting the Hefners of the world.
In my opinion if you think your strong in one area that can’t get you what you want to fix the others without ruining that strength, then the way to go is to buy what you need to fill that hole or until the rotation is not just strong but has a logjam.
If they can’t get what is needed by trading only ONE pitcher then they should just go buy it instead.
Hey Metsie,
I think you’re forgetting that we would be adding Odorizzi as well as Montgomery in this scenario. Add those two to Mejia and Familia, it’s more than ok to project that one or two of them can make the 2014 rotation. If not, there should be ample money to sign one or two more rotation arms.
Which one s going to be better than Niese or Wheeler?
Should the goal be HAVE ENOUGH to get by or should we go We are STRONG here, lets maintain that and get what we need for MONEY and not players?
Which gets you there faster?
Getting kids who may or may not help in a year or two or buying the one guy who with the pitching you have maintained makes this season interesting and not a punt?
1. I compared the Wheeler lottery ticket to the Myers lottery ticket. To me that’s a fair swap. Personally I’ll take Myers’ bat, but hey like I said, everything people like about Wheeler, applies to Myers as a hitter. So that’s a fair swap.
2. No you’re talking Niese for Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard. I like Niese a lot, but I actually think those three would more than make up for losing him (see above).
3. Let’s not pretend like the Mets are going to spend enough money to add and improve greatly. This trade works under their restraints with the ridiculous $100MM mid-market payroll.
4. You’re right these kids may not work out. But you could also be very wrong, just like I could be. Therefore the question is this, do you keep Wheeler and Niese or do you add Myers (a RH OF you’re desparate for and the best power bat in the upper minors since 1963), Odorizzi (who is ready for the rotation now, and has always been more valued than Niese was ever at a similar point in his career), Montgomery (a LH starter who already throws mid 90s, who if the Mets can sprinkly some of the Wheeler magic they had on…would be an absolute monster), and Leonard (a power bat for a system devoid of power bats).
Little early yet on comparing what will be the 2013 team to what was the 2012 team.
I’ll take it all back if we sign Josh Hamilton and trade Dickey + Wheeler for Robinson Cano by next week.
‘At least in 2012 we had the excitement of the first no-hitter in Mets history and the magical season of R.A. Dickey to help the fan base get through the season.’
Which was great but hardly predictable at the start of the 2012 season.
You can’t compare the hindsight of the 2012 season with the future of the 2013 season, especially right now when we don’t even know what the team will look like come Opening day.
Sure we can, because without those moments the 2012 season would have been a disaster. Now that those things are in our rear-view mirror, and the teams has done zero to improve, what do we have to look forward to in 2013? The thrill of getting the first no-hitter is gone.
I have no idea. I don’t know even know what the starting 25 will look like yet come opening day.
I’m not predicting any post season competitive team but just think it’s a little too early to declare the ’13 team worse than the ’12 team right now.
And my fantasy would be prying Stanton away from the Marlins.
the thrill of getting the 2nd and 3rd ones?
Again, i have been saying from day one i saw the intentions of this front office was to be here to fix the internal problems the wilpons have, that’s it, they had 0 intentions to build a winner or a championship caliber team as a lot of other people said they were. this FO has got to be the worst unit that NY has ever seen and it’s not even close. The only reason Wright was extended was 1) to save money ($8 million saved) and 2) to apeace his legion of fans.
This was not a baseball move, they knew they were not gonna get anybody good during the offseason, so their plan was to jerk around wright and dickey so everyone can forget about the lack of moves done during the offseason. But of course, you’ll have the (Nobody has done anything) excuses from the sandylovers and sabergooners in order to still somehow defend this people because they still believe. 3 offseason and in each one of them, the mets have regressed, and regressed and regressed… But hey, we’re supposed to give sandy and co one more year right? I mean, everyone said this was the offseason they’ll be able to judge sandy, but now once again that tune has changed to 2014. It’s amazing as a fan of this team how people are either seeing the name on the back of a player, or how they love numbers to root for this team.. SMMFH
Again…the wilpons look at the mets like a big movie/theater production.
There is a reason why most expensive blockbuster action films have a recognizable name attached to it, either at director, actor, producer.
There was a big uproar over the movie being shown now called The Impossible. ( which i def want to check out )
The movie is about the tsunami in thailand back in 2004.
It’s filmed in thailand, made in thailand, but the star is ewan mcgregor and naomi watts ( 2 excellent actors )
The folks in Thailand were upset that Hollywood did not think that the movie would be able to be sold to the public if the protagonists looked like they were from Thailand, rather than from England.
Its the same concept with the wilpons.
they have to have a recognizable name to justify the expensive blockbuster action flick they are selling 81 times a year. Despite 4 straight mediocre seasons, that came after 2 really bad choke jobs, the mets are once again RAISING ticket prices. You cant do that with a team that has a 30 mil payroll. and a team that has no “stars”.
This is Fred in 1980 explaining how he intends to turn around the franchise and sell tickets
https://plus.google.com/photos/112206184788769679724/albums/5656072820853221377/5656072825096822594?banner=pwa
absolutely nothing has changed with his method.
Mitch,
The Mets did not blow anything regarding trading RA Dickey. They have wisely marketed him asking for a very big return. Some team shave made counter offers that the Mets have passed on. They will see how the market sizes up after Grienke is off the board. They have Dickey under contract for next season. They are close to a reasonable extension in a price range that takes into account that he is a 38-year-old knuckleballler. The reality is for the Mets and fans like us that the market just doesn’t value Dickey high enough to return two top prospects, prospects that carry risk despite their resumes. So, we’ll see if anyone sweetens the pot, otherwise, they’ll sign dickey and work on the other gaping holes.
Now, I do agree that they are worse than they were in 2012, but the season does not start for 4 months. Let’s see what the roster looks like in 120 days.
TJ, the other GMs questioned if the Mets were really serious about trading him because their demands were extreme. The Mets are selling him as a Cy Young winner but everyone else looks at him as a 38-yr old knuckleballer which comes with a ton of risk.
Why shouldn’t they demand more than he is worth? It really is that they are OK with keeping him at the demands he has given yet if they can get a team to overpay between now and then why not try? If they value keeping him as an B and any trade offers they are currently getting as a B- then why not hold out for an A- or just keep him?
They should have known that nobody would give up two prospects. Their plan backfired because they were hoping that some team would be desperate enough to pay that ransom after Greinke signed. The Mets have enough starting pitching that they should have lowered their asking price and got a couple of prospects in exchange for Dickey – if they sign him for three years you have to figure that if the Mets are competing again it won’t be for another year or two at best so is Dickey going to be the same pitcher he is now when he is 40 or 41? Probably not and let’s face it there is no guarantee Dickey has anywhere near the type of success he experienced in 2012 ever again…that’s why he wants to get a contract extension done before opening day. If the Mets wait, and Dickey regresses in 2013 then Dickey becomes nothing more than a guy playing out one-year contracts the rest of his career.
Everyone wants to extend Dickey but the unpredictability of the knuckleball and his age make it very risky….that’s why no teams are willing to give up two prospects and the Mets are dragging their feet. Really what the Mets will be doing is extending Dickey and crossing their fingers.
Again, you are missing the point that perhaps the Mets value what Dickey will provide them over the returns they are currently getting in trade proposals. Thus they would rather keep him at below market value than to trade him for market value or below. I just don’t see how this is screwing up anything on the Mets end of things.
Aside from the fact that he is a 38-yr old knuckleball pitcher which comes with a ton of risk…no its a great move for the Mets to extend him. That is, as long as Dickey doesn’t regress.
Yet Mitch that is your opinion and may not be the Mets opinion. It really comes down to what they value the most and why they are being patient.
If signing Dickey at X= Y value
And Trading Dickey for X= Y value-1
Then they are signing Dickey. If that trade changes to +1 then they will trade him.
This article pretty much sums it up:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/r-a-dickey-problem-is-a-nice-one-for-mets-to-have-1.4309278?qr=1
The reality is that Dickey is, in fact, a 38-year old knuckleballer. It is the only reason why the Mets are even entertaining a trade for him. If they had a 28-year old Cy Young winner, he would be untouchable. The fact is, in a market where starting pitching is being heavily coveted, the Mets cannot get two top tier prospects for him. Why? Because of the risk involved with a 38-year old knuckleballer. We see the Mets hesitant to sign him to an extension unless it’s on their terms and would probably prefer him play out 2013 on his option year. Would we see this hesitation with a 28 year-old Cy Young award winner? No way.
Again, please don’t take what I am saying the wrong way – I love Dickey, he’s a great guy and has done great things with the Mets…I am talking strictly from a baseball/business standpoint.
OT:
ESPN: ‘Mets set to up Dickey offer to about 3 yrs/$25 mil.’
‘Dickey has been asking for a two-year extension for approximately $26 million’
If they’re just now offering him 10 MIL a year for a 2 year extension, just how low ball was the first offer? Come on….if Koroda is worth $15 MIL a year and Greinke is worth 24.5 MIL a year, how is Dickey not worth the $13 MIL a year for 2 years that he’s asking for?
Don’t forget Joe Blanton and Brandon McCarthy and their $7.5MM. or Andy Pettite’s $12MM. I get not giving a long term commitment, but if this is the Mets upping their offer, that first offer must’ve been atrocious.
That first offer must have been an insult to Dickey. It’s terrible the way he’s getting treated after three solid seasons. I believe they don’t want players who can be tied to Omar Minaya.
I agree also about a long term commitment.
Looks like Dickey is only asking for the additional 2 years after next year’s 5 MIL. Reasonable for both sides.
IMO, there is no way Dickey is not worth the $13 MIL per year he’s asking for.
If Wheeler comes up (and/or someone else) and we’ve got a surplus of SP, that contract for Dickey would still be reasonable enough that we could trade him, if necessary.
I never said he wasn’t worth $13M – but if the Mets are not willing to pay him what he wants, then what kind of message does that send to the teams they are trying to trade him to? They want two top prospects but aren’t willing to pay him like a player that is worthy of two top tier prospects.
That comment wasn’t in response to anything you said, Mitch. Didn’t mean to imply it was.
I was just commenting overall that if they ‘upped’ their offer to 20/2, that first offer must have been real lowball – or atrocious as Hank said.
they don’t want to sign him now. the offer so far is more of a place holder (part of the dance). What do you want them to do, tell his agent the # and years are fine, we will do that deal, but not now because we are still shopping him?
Exactly, how you can say the plan has backfired when they still hold all the cards is beyond me.
Yes, I believe the Mets can improve long and short term by trading Dickey for Olt and Martin, and then signing Lannen. Trading a couple of minor-league pitchers for a catcher would be great, too. And signing a couple of free agent relievers would be helpful, too. All of this could happen soon, but if it doesn’t (and Dickey is extended), Alderson can re-sign Hairston (and some relievers), and we’re a bit better than a 74-win team, with Gee and Santana pitching the entire year, hopefully, as well as Harvey being in NY for the whole season. 80 wins anyone?
I would rather trade DIckey either for a really good SS …a really good Catcher…OR….if the package includes neither…trade that entire package + Flores + whatever it takes For Giancarlo Stanton.
Then actually SIGN a REAL Centerfielder…
this might take some money…
Michael Bourn would be my selection.
5 years 70 mil
13 mil per year aav
LF – Duda
CF – Bourn
RF – Stanton
3B – Wright
SS – Tejada
2B – Murphy
1B – Ike
C – to be determined…but Juan Centeno is doing pretty well everywhere he goes…and his defense is still stellar. He is currently playing in the PWL and hitting .302
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2012/11/20/3669250/new-york-mets-josh-thole-catcher
I’m shocked that 2 1/2 months of the hot stove season is gone and that pitchers and catchers report in 8 weeks. It’s kind of hilarious that we’ve yet to make one significant change considering
that whole diatribe they fed us when Alderson was a guest of WFAN. Stupid me for actually believing him hook, line and sinker.
You pointed out the obvious and you’re saying what most of us have already been thinking. I really thought this third offseason under Alderson was going to be a key one for the team. Especially with all the financial problems put to rest. My question is what are they going to do with that $20-25 million they had to spend? Are they just going to lower payroll to $80 million? I thought Jeff Wilpon said he was increasing payroll to $110 million? They haven’t spent one red cent.
When is opening day again ? Tomorrow ? Next Friday ? Oh, wait….
Right now, yes, Hairston, Torres, Ramirez, Rauch,Cedeno, Shoppach, Pelfrey, Bay and C.Young are gone and Hicks, Burke and Recker have been added.
If that is all that happens till April 1st, then yes, it´ll be a very disappointing winter.
Now on to the “broader” point of the argument:
The current front office – when it took over in late 2010 – had two main tasks:
# 1 Try to help the current ownership group avoid a bancrucpcy shortterm by cutting costs as much as possible while trying to remain as competitive as possible in the process (to avoid a corresponding collapse of revenue you´d have seen in a fire-sale).
# 2 Build a sustainable winner longterm,.
Now, as for # 1, the “chief restructuring officer” part has apparently been accomplished. The Wilpons remain owners of this franchise (unfortunately !). But can you blame Alderson & Co. for doing their job – even if it´s very unpopular ?
As for # 2, time will tell. “Longterm” in Baseball generally means about 4-5 years minimum. Right now, we´re in the 3rd off-season with this front-office and thus around “halftime” in terms of their job to build a sustainable winner by 2014 or 2015. Now, you may argue that trading Niese & Wheeler (a lot less experienced and less helpful than Shields & W.Davis for shortterm purposes btw – how many 220+ IP does Niese have and how many MLB IP does Wheeler have ???) for the KC package sent to TB would have helped. You may argue that Niese & Wheeler are worth more than just one elite prospect, plus a prospect with # 3 caliber stuff and a prospect with # 2 caliber stuff and middle reliever results and a Rookie Ball prospect.
Dickey also shouldn´t be traded for the sake of trading him. Maybe the smarter play is to keep him and surround the young staff with a veteran IP eating anchor.
So, let´s judge this off-season in March and not prior to christmas…
If it’s halftime, then it’s a New York Jets style halftime where they have generated no points and several turnovers and are getting booed on the way to the locker room.
This organization is going nowhere fast and has very possibly turned a 74 win team into a 65 win team.
Hey I have good news and bad news…
good news: we have some players doing well in the winter leagues
bad news: you dont like any of these players
http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/org.jsp?id=nym
Jordany – hitting .309 with a .420 OBP, showing great plate discipline now, his sense of fashion, not so much
Juan Centeno – hitting .302…still playing great defense. Is still not Mike Piazza-lite yet, so he has no value to most met fans
Jordany will get his wish and be a good player for the Marlins. We get a DFA player type.
I ‘ve been commenting all along that when Michael Bourn came on the market as a free agent he was oiur man yet everyone said he would be too expensive at 12 million. This is the guy we need to solidify the outfield and be a legitimate leadoff guy. His downside is his strikeouts but Upton has the same problem. I was villified ny Met fans that we couldn’t afford him and he wasn’t worth it and we wanted Upton. I say you find the money. If you walk outside in the rain and your roof is leaking like an open hose, YOU FIND THE MONEY. I have no idea if we will be worse in ’13 but I know that we will be better with Bourn on a Mets uniform.
They have the money, Lou. Wright even gave them $8 million on top of the money they already had to spend. Alderson is not a spender. he’s a lets trade players that make money for unproven prospects kind of guy.
the only OF most of these fans have in their sights is Cody Ross or Ryan Ludwick
Sign Bourn or Upton and they become the immediate scape-goat for a poor 2013, no matter what the action hero at 3B does.
And Ludwick is off the table now. He was signed by the Reds yesterday.
That’s weird, I thought Ludwick was signed over a week ago by them when they were in Nashville.
Remember how things come out that they have agreed long before the contracts become official.
Mitch – Question for you
“R.A. Dickey was great in 2012, but trading him was one of the few opportunities the Mets had to improve this off-season. Unfortunately, the Mets blew it by forgetting he is 38-years old.”
What do you mean by that? It seems like you’re saying they overvalued him on the trade market?
It is a mistake to be overwhelmed by R.As age. I think Hoyt Wilhelm and Niekro both pitched well and were in their 40s. I could be wrong as I didn’t look at the stats but a three year contract isn’t something a team should be worried about.
mets simply asking for a lot , and thats the right thing to do, either a team will grab him finally or guess what ??? we keep RA , its not that we have a good/worst case here . Sell high, or have a CY as starter . thats it ….. and please no one says somethign about injuries . Can happen to EVERYONE . So lets preten a player stays healthy
They did…one top prospect and a mid tier prospect would have been sufficient instead of starting the discussion at two top prospects. Props to him having a great year but he’s not worth two top prospects. Throw out his cy young year and the fact remains he is 38-years old and a knuckleballer which is too much risk for other teams. The Royals opted for James Shields over Dickey.
Sorry Mitch, I have to disagree with you. First of all, over the last 3 years Dickey has been a top 10 pitcher in the sport. (or top 11 I forget what the stat said). You don’t go into a trade scenario aiming low.
I agree with you on why he’s tradeable for the Mets. But if the Mets have to keep Dickey it isn’t the worst thing in the world. You can’t just give him away. He just won the friggin Cy Young. He didn’t win it 5 years ago or 10 years ago, he won it 1 month ago.
The Mets need “now” help and they have 2 pitchers that can possibly bring back 2 useable pieces. Niese and Dickey. (Outside of trading harvey which you know they wont). So if you’re not dealing Niese, then you gotta throw the Dickey hook out there and see what happens. If teams don’t want him, then guess what? You just turned contract negotiations in your favor anyway.
The Royals didn’t opt for James Shields over Dickey. They opted for what they believe is TWO starting pitchers, both under contract through 2014. Would you rather have James Shields or an empty rotation spot when Dickey tests the market? Of course you’d prefer Shields.
If you want what the Rays got then package Niese and Gee and call it a day. I don’t think the Mets could afford to do that.
They should have known that nobody would give up two prospects. Their plan backfired because they were hoping that some team would be desperate enough to pay that ransom after Greinke signed. The Mets have enough starting pitching that they should have lowered their asking price and got a couple of prospects in exchange for Dickey – if they sign him for three years you have to figure that if the Mets are competing again it won’t be for another year or two at best so is Dickey going to be the same pitcher he is now when he is 40 or 41? Probably not and let’s face it there is no guarantee Dickey has anywhere near the type of success he experienced in 2012 ever again…that’s why he wants to get a contract extension done before opening day. If the Mets wait, and Dickey regresses in 2013 then Dickey becomes nothing more than a guy playing out one-year contracts the rest of his career. Everyone wants to extend Dickey but the unpredictability of the knuckleball and his age make it very risky….that’s why no teams are willing to give up two prospects and the Mets are dragging their feet. Really what the Mets will be doing is extending Dickey and crossing their fingers.
That is soooo unfair of you to say Mitch. What do you mean he should have known? Name me one general manager in baseball that knows and understands the market he’s in? Come on I’m waiting.
The bargaining for Dickey may not be over
Mets reportedly have 2 deals at the ready…..that they could accept now
But are waiting…..seeing if either club will toss in another chip.
This is SMART.
More like….
THIS IS BULL!
If they had a deal they would have taken it by now…
They are just trying to scare anyone who has shown interest in the past and consider Dickey a fall back plan to something else into giving up more for fear of losing that backup plan…
Thats all that is….
If there was something there we would have made the deal by now so obviously it’s either not a good deal or just plain and utter bull meant as a negotiating tactic!
We know they have a standing offer of Olt and it’s not hard to imagine that another team is willing to offer something similar. What they are trying to do though is get a team to cave and include a 2nd decent player. Of course they could just take Olt and some would find his 5 years of cheap under control as acceptable.
Olt on a one to one swap!
Cy Young for a young promising out of position player?
Thats a standing offer?
Hell No keep Dickey cause unless he plays a great RF AND hits 30+ HRs it’s not worth doing even if they throw in another minor prospect which is usually all that any standing offer gets upped by…
If they find someone with a REAL RFer (of CF) then maybe I think about it….
No offer like that exists, our best offer is not much more than what we already have, and IF who hits but has no place to play forcing us to convert into an OF.
I didn’t say they should do a one for one swap. However, there are plenty out there who would find the under control power hitting Olt as a good return for Dickey. There are plenty who would not. That still doesn’t change the point that you have implied that no one is going to give a talented young player for a 38 year old Dickey. I disagree.
Sure anyone who needs a 3B…
But no one who needs OF would trade a Cy Young Pitcher to get a 3B they have to convert.
Would the Nats trade one of thier top Pitchers to get Olt?
I doubt it!
Sure he fits the label of PROSPECT….But Prospect is only worth having if you can use him.
If we made that deal we would have to trade him for something else to get anything from it and if anyone was willing to give up something good for him don’t you think they would have traded him for that instead of some 38 Year old Cy Young Pitcher?
Still missing the point. You said no one would give a young top prospect for RA. It doesn’t matter to the Rangers that we already have a 3B. Also, based on reports he is certainly able to play the OF. The Mets, however, are rightfully holding out for more.
Oh please it sure DOES matter….
Lets try it ths way….
Drowning Man – I’ll give you a Million for something good that can save me….
Your Response – I have a high quality glass of water!
Is Olt a top prospect?
Only to someone who needs a 3B!
So maybe to someone else…Not to us!
Again, is Olt regarded as a one of the top prospects in baseball or not? Moving on, this is pointless.
At least a couple of teams have offered one elite prospect in trade talks for Dickey, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. However, the Mets want multiple players in a deal for the Cy Young winner. The Rangers don’t appear to be close to a deal for Dickey, Heyman writes.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#wQj06yZurBeiH545.99
Yes it is pointless as I see what your trying to do CHANGE THE SUBJECT from what MY position is to what you would LIKE me to have said!
What I said is YOU WILL NOT GET GOOD ENOUGH to warrant trading Dickey and should keep him….
You want to make this about what Sandy is willing to let him go for and I would not let him go UNLESS it is a top prospect that actually gets us something we need….
Thats why your not getting the answer you seem to be trying to pull out of me because your arguing a point I don’t agree with and did not suggest!
Sure you will get top prospects for him….
NONE WORTH HAVING! NONE WORTH TRADING FOR!
and NO MORE than what your already offered which doesn’t help us!
Clear now?
Are we both talking about the same thing here now?
Or will you insist on talking about what you want to talk about ignoring what my position is in an attempt to get what YOU want to see happen a Dickey trade for ANY TOP prospect as being a good offer!
I think I finally figured you out. You are Matt Cerrone operating here under the guise of Jessep. The jig is up, you may as well admit it and move on.
I don’t remember the quote but Mr. Sandy said there would be some wholesale changes this off-season. I don’t see one difference in how this team is operating. YEa he still has time but it surely is slipping away.
But let’s not knock the “los mets” Jersey’s. Those things are damn sweet and I am glad they are going to be busting them out on a regular bases. The blacks need to go for good.
Adam Rubin tweet from just now:
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN
Do you get the sense the 2013 #Mets Opening Day roster will look a lot like 2012 — minus Rauch, Byrdak and maybe Hairston?
LOL…..I never really bought into the ‘wholesale’ changes the FO said would be done.
How exactly are they doing that if they extend both Wright and Dickey (which now seems more likely)?
They’re not going to spend money on the likes of someone like Hamilton.
The only way I can see these type of changes now are with trades. I’ve read Ike, Parnell and Harvey won’t be traded. Not seeing where Niese is going anywhere. Wright certainly isn’t.
That doesn’t leave a whole lot of ML talent left, only the prospects. I suppose a trade could still get done….just don’t know if that will qualify as the extent of these ‘wholesale’ changes we’ve been hearing about.
Be patient damn it!!! Maybe you forgot, but we didnt sign Chris Young and Ronny Cedeno until January last offseason. We didn’t sign Carrasco until January 18th two years ago. Just be patient damn it, just as in the last two offseasons, your patience will be rewarded in January.
Oh if we can get Miguel Cairo back we are so winning next year.
Gotta tell you, I’m not a big Cairo fan. Is Julio Franco still out there?
Yes, but Andruw Jones isn’t. He’s headed to Japan where most likely roids are encouraged.
I just read that, isn’t that crazy. How can it not be roids with the guy. And Atlant knew it or they wouldn’t of just let him go like that.
no…but on the real…I would take Endy Chavez back in a heartbeat
Dumping Bay–a very good thing–is not a wholesale change, but the Mets are ipso facto a better team in 2013 for that reason.
While the Meetings are over, and there’s disappointment a-plenty, I don’t know that there won’t be deals in the works for a couple of decent relievers and a quality OFer.
Skeptical and disappointed, but let’s see where we are in late Feb.
Alderson will need to do something significant and aimed at improving the W-L ratio for 2013 before late Feb.
i agree , and i dont try to defend anyone here, i am hoping for some additions more then other “fans” . BUT isnt it kind of logical to do FEW if your goal is to fill the wholes with prospects ???
or is the mets farm system only to trade player????
Really- as bad a he was, he might have still been the team’s best outfielder. Unless you like Nieuwenhuis striking out every 2 at bats and Duda’s frailties of confidence. And I have forgotten Andres Torres who really supplies the Mets with an abundance of nothing at all.
No argument that Bay was a capable fielder, but he was a complete and utter offensive drag on the team. Not just that he batted so poorly, but he killed rallies, killed any kind of important offensive espirit!
Well I would guess that award goes to Hairston as sad as that might be.
Hey Mitch, all you do is bitch. Why don’t you count all of your Mets blessings under Sandy for a change? How about looking at all the great things he brought us in 2012? All the great moves, the excellent draft, bringing Andres Torres back from the dead and finally getting this team a top shelf closer in Francisco. And lets not forget that new approach at the plate that led to 71 wins. All you ever do is complain.
Lol I actually wrote a very optimistic piece in late October I think.
And now you are doing your best Monday morning quarterbacking. Suppose if your October enthusiasm had been met you would saying “as I predicted”.
Lets not forget bringing in Mike Nikeaus to mentor Josh Thole….despite the fact that he has less experience than Josh !
Gotta be thankful for the little things in life
HI Maniac,
LMAO – you really had me fooled there for a second!
Hi Mitch,
While we differ on the validity of the Wright and hopefully R.A. moves, I agree with you entirely about the issues in the outfield and the bullpen not being addressed and that the Mets are neither rebuilding or have a win now mentality.
The only issues being addressed are the fiscal ones keeping the Wilpons in the owner’s box. Those alone are a 24/7 job for Sandy Alderson and the reason he is here to begin with.
There was some talk above about Bourne being the key here. So I went and actually looked at his #s, and I don’t see it (and that could certainly explain why no team ponied up the big $ for him, especially a LT deal).
over the last 2 season, he has been almost exactly the same:
2011 – .734 OPS/103 OPS+
2012 – 739/99.
he was actually (based on OPS+) a smidge below average this season. And certainly nothing jumps out at you offensively. The only “flashy” # was SBs (though he also lead the league in CS both years, negating some of the benefit). And it is not at all uncommon to see guys that ran a lot hit their 30s, sign the big deal, and the SBs drop way down. he also Ks a ton of a low power speed guy.
Certainly he plays good defense, but looking at the overall package, really not sure this is a guy you should be making your big purchase and committing 5 years at 16 mill to.
The go to guy for the Mets this offseason should be Justin Upton not Bourn. Upton will even cost less than Bourn in dollars and the Mets have the money to take him on if they wanted to. Upton is a cornerstone player and will outproduce Wright over the next 5-7 years. Giving up Ruben Tejada, Wheeler and Duda to get him would be a no-brainer.
Sorry but J Upton is not outpacing Wright playing half his games in CitiField….
He is a product of that launchpad they have in the high heat of Arizona and at BEST might keep pace with Wright in a good year for him.
Yes, you’re right. That’s why Justin Upton was the number one pick in the country. We’re better off with Mike Baxter in right field, who needs Upton. Here’s a nickel, go buy yourself a clue.
Have you looked at his numbers outside of Chase Field?
As for when he was picked well I will just remind you of a few names here….
Paul Wilson
Shawn Abner
Tim Foli
Steve Chilcott
Were all the top draft picks in thier respective years as well….
Name the Hall of Famers from that bunch?
Wow….how terribly pessimistic of you
Teams grow by being together day in/day out. This infield will blossom in 2013. The OF is agreed a work in progress.
Players improve as they get experience.
Duda/Nieuwenhuis COULD in fact have better seasons.
And the pitching? Dude – you just miss the boat. Niese and Harvey are ready to establish themselves as one of the formidable L/R combos in the NL.
When Santana is an afterthought……………
thats a good thing
Your Parnell comment is sickening.
“Your Parnell comment is sickening.”
Yes, everyone in baseball knows that Parnell is an untouchable!
Where are we going to find another reliever who cant pitch under pressure and throws a straight as an arrow 100 mph fastball?!?
This whole site is sickening. I’m going back to Metsblog!
Not sure how I missed the boat on the starting rotation? Are you sure you commented on the right article? I never said a negative thing about the staff and not sure why the Parnell comment was sickening…he is not an untouchable player.
It’s not pessimism, its reality that the Mets have done nothing to improve this winter so far. How about you point out how the Mets have improved this off-season…if u can do that I won’t bring it up ever again.
The Mets have the potentiaL to have the premier starting staff in 2014 with the following starters in no particular order: Harvey, Niese, Gee, Wheeler , Dickey, Santana. If Santana is done we have Meija and other young arms. Harvey, Niese, Gee and Wheeler and Meija should be untouchable. The Mets will not be a team to score a lot of runs so having this staff to take you deep into the game is critical to us winning games. Parnell can be very effective in set up or closing. He is now getting the maturity to be a Kimbrel or a Venters for example.
Exactly….
You know what would be ideal to happen for us?
Santana pitches great the first half of the season so we can trade him at the deadline to get those kids we think Dickey and Niese will get us….
The timing here COULD be perfect….
We will know one way or another what Santana has by July….
Wheeler will be ready to come up and have half a season in AAA by then…
I say hold onto Dickey and Niese, Hope to trade Santana (add kids if needed) to get the prospect we all think Dickey and Niese could get (maybe lesser but thats fine)
The timing here could not be more perfect to just keep the pitching we have, find out what Santana has or not (trade or let HIM go for picks instead of Dickey!) , right around the time Wheeler is projected to be ready!
Now the question is….
Do we go spend some of the money that comes off the books next year from Bay and Santana on THIS YEAR’s class of Free Agent OFs (and get an extra year of competitive season a year earlier?) or wait till next year when the pickings are slimmer…
I say extend Dickey and then go after the one RH Power Hitting OFer now and then fill C and CF with the Kids we have in the system.
Hi Lou,
And with the knowledge that the starting pitching potential existed back in July of 2011 – before the Beltran trade – is why I question why Sandy went after Wheeler instead of addressing other issues like our outfield which he was planning to dismantle to begin with.
Author needs to explain how we IMPROVE by dealing our 20-game winner………
but cannot possibly improve if we keep him.
Never said they couldn’t improve…I said they didn’t do anything to improve yet and and argument can be made that they are in worse shape than last year. That can change- its still December, but I don’t see the urgency or the wholesale changes that were promised.
ets blear here Mitch….
The only wholesale changes we were ever going to see were changes of deletion not addition….
If we had traded Wright AND/OR Dickey that is what were going to be the wholesale changes….
And if it happened only THEN would you see new faces in the OF and other positions.
We all assumed he meant changes of addition but he was talking about subtraction….
And since he couldn’t move either player (Slim chance on Dickey still) those changes are not going to materialize.
At best we will sign the crud that remains on the sides of the barrel in January like we have for two years now!
When you look at the season so far the only changes have been subtractions not a single addition worth noting or that has even a chance of being a starter for us in 2013.
“that has even a chance of being a starter for us in 2013.”
Unfortunately you may not be correct. Jamie Hoffman might be in RF as Baxter’s platoon and if we are facing a LH on opening day then he will be an opening day starter
I’m sorry but a Platoon is not a starter….
Platooning is fine when you don’t HAVE a starter but it really doesn’t help…
Sure you start them based on who starts the game but then a relief pitcher comes in, makes you switch then another and your stuck playing the guy who can’t hit against that side arm….
Platooning can work as a fall back plan but we need a starter and someone who can protect Davis in EVERY game….
I didn’t say that was what we needed. Only that they could have added a starter to the team and yes I consider a platoon guy as a starter, or at least .5 lol.
So you eat up two roster spots to fill one position leaving you one roster spot short someplace else….
Not smart to PLAY for the platoon when there are options out there that for a little more money (WHich is not limited by the MLB the way roster spots are) to fill the position with ONE player letting you keep more BP arms or depth for other positions on the team.
It’s dumb to SHOOT for a platoon…You do it when your forced to but the best way to go is find one guy who hits as well as both against Both Lefty and Righty so you can use that extra roster spot for other things you need.
Just dumb to say well I’ll just find 6 guys to play outfield and to hell with all the other positions having backup.
Just to save 5 Mil above what you paying for a single positions platoon players.
You are still getting confused with what I want or think they should do and what they are doing it. Thus if Hoffman starts on opening day then they have added a starter, might not be one that will help a damn bit but that’s like saying that because the Mets farm produced lots of starters last year that it was a great farm. Nope, just means that they didn’t have better players and had no choice.
As for taking up an extra roster spot? No not really, considering a team usually carries 5 OF having 2 of them be platoons doesn’t do anything to take away a roster spot.
Yeah usually carry 5 when they have three regulars….
We would need 6 just to get the regulars and then still need two more (total of 8 nearly 25% of the roster) for guys to replace them when they faced the arm they are no good at hitting!
5 is plenty even if they have 2 platoons.
Without a single regular starter your looking at 6 platoon players…
3 LHH and 3 RHH….
With just 5 your playing a platoon player against the wrong arm.
I never said they would platoon CF.
“As for taking up an extra roster spot? No not really, considering a team usually carries 5 OF having 2 of them be platoons doesn’t do anything to take away a roster spot.”
Lenny Dykstra/Mookie Wilson; Wally Backman/Tim Teufel; Ray Knight/HoJo.
The ’86 Mets had 6 players to fill up 3 positions and it seemed to work well for them.
Funny because at the time most people thought that Wilson, Teufel and HoJo should not have been used as much as they were!
Who is Jamie Hoffman and where did we get him from? Minor league contract signing?
Yup.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/58921/source-mets-sign-jamie-hoffmann
Also
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=hoffma004jam
Looks almost identical to the RH version of Baxter.
which is why a platoon for at least 1 OF corner makes a ton of sense, and is likely to happen. baxter/Hoffman potentially could give you at least average output, playing to their strengths.
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if the current plan is two platoons.
LF with Duda and Hairston (being re-signed)
RF with Baxter and Hoffman
and CF with Kirk.
That combined has the potential to either be decent assuming splits hold up or the worst OF that the Mets have ever assembled.
former Dodger prospect that bounced around last year, and has never really had a shot at a ML regular job.
If the Karma gods want to finally give the Mets a break, he becomes the next Werth when he got to the Phils (they followed a similar path coming out of Dodger land)
Great article Mitch.
Sad, but everything you said is true.
I’m wondering if David is re-gretting his decision to stay
Thanks for reading Rob
Sorry, Mitch. I get it now
You love the starting pitching, yet we “have nothing to look foirward to”
I guess Duda cant improve.
I guess Parnellc ant continue to get better,a s he has each season
I guess we cant get Francisco morw than 18-20 save opps.
I guess Josh Edgin cant become anything of value……no – only ATL guys come out of nowhere and do that
I guess Valdespin cant contribute more
I guess Niuewenhusi cant cut down his K rate
I guess Ike has Valley Fever again
I guess Wright dowsnt have a huge season in him
I guess Murphy cant turn 290 into .315 with 85 ribs
I guess we win zero starts of Santana’s after the break
I guess we again lose 3/5 of the rotation
I guess Justin Turner cant continue to be a solid bench contributoe and teammate
I guess no one steps up and surprises, like Hairston did.
I guess Matt Harvey will be swallowed by the heat of the NL East’s full season (heh – this is the funniest)
I guess team chemistry amounts to nothing
I guess we’re just……….DOOMED
And I guess Alderson will add nothing from now til Opening Day
Hope I got to it all for ya………
be good now, pal.