26
2012
Are You Happy With The Direction Of The Mets?
An article by 
Brandon Nimmo: Selected 13th overall in the 2011 Draft, Nimmo was the first signature move of the new Mets front office.
Before we all split for the Holidays, I polled our writers on a number of different Mets issues that are facing the team. We discussed payroll and spending, the Dickey trade, the offseason so far, and also what we felt about the overall direction of the team and the confidence in this front office.
How confident are you in the front office and the direction of the team?
Matt Strachman – Sandy Alderson is a stoic genius and I couldn’t be happier with the direction the Mets are headed. We have locked up three of the scarcest positions with Wright, Tejada, and d’Arnaud and stocked up on young arms. The bullpen is still a bit of a mess, but we have time to see what pans out and can easily overhaul it with $ in the bank. I am not trying to simplify the process of building a championship team, but the nuts and bolts are there and Sandy will supply the glue. Good times are on the horizon my friends.
Rob (Tie Dyed) – Not at all. This entire organization is going down faster than the Titanic.
XtreemIcon – I’ve always been confident in the front office and the direction of the team, and they’ve done nothing to change my opinion. Snagging d’Arnaud even strengthens that opinion. What goes on in the press or what’s said in interviews seems to be very important to some people, but I just care about winning and building a sustainable winner, and that’s the direction the team is moving in.
Jessica – It might be a shaky ride, but we’re heading in the right direction. Sandy Alderson may have made the deal of his career in being to acquire two of the Blue Jays top prospects for Dickey. We filled a hole that has needed to be filled since, well, Paul Lo Duca left. But as with any ride, the train can derail rather quickly, and I fear that may happen if the Mets refuse to address other needs.
Gregg Hopps – Sandy Alderson is a baseball man, who has had success in the past. There is no reason to believe Sandy will not have success here. I don’t like the Wilpon’s, but I agree with them when they say the free agent route hasn’t really worked for them. Sandy, along with Terry Collins have done a decent job here so far. The NL East is a tough division with the emergence of Washington, and long time winners Atlanta. The Phillies are going to be interesting, and the Fish will be in the cellar. IF the Mets can win some games against Atlanta and Washington, I think we could see a fun year. So yeah, I like the direction this team is heading in.
Drew – Last year at this time I was very confident especially after scoring Wheeler for Beltran even though we didn’t do much else. I was okay with letting Jose Reyes walk and excited to see what we would select with the two draft picks last June. The first pick Kevin Plawecki was disappointing and now with d’Arnaud on board it’s actually negated or at best he’s a backup which what many scouts said he was in the first place. We only signed one second round pick of the two we had and the one we let go was one of the most highly regarded right-handers in the draft. I become even more skeptical when we didn’t trade Jon Rauch or Scott Hairston even though it was clear the team were not buyers and neither would be coming back anyway. Trading Dickey but keeping Wright is not an indication of any direction. It seems like the front office is clueless as to whether we are rebuilding or not. I was giving them three offseasons all along to get things righted, and so far it seems like 2013 could be our fifth straight losing season and it could go as high as seven straight before we see results at the major league level. That would tie the longest losing stretch in franchise history set by the Lovable Losers between 1962-1968.
Satish – If I had to put a number on it, I feel 50/50 about the way the team is going. I know that we aren’t going to contend in 2013. And we at least have enough potential in the prospects to make me feel a little confident about the future. But leading the league in potential doesn’t get you anything. In addition to that, if we continue the trend at not improving the major league roster, or not locking up players that aren’t Wright, we are going to become a pretty hard team to keep liking. And no, signing David Wright does not count as improving the MLB roster, it counts as keeping it the same. This is not a bad thing, but it’s just a matter of building on it.
Jim Mancari – I guess I will say I’m confident in the direction of the team and the front office because I really have no control over it. I’ve placed my trust in the front office to improve the team. If trading R.A. Dickey means getting back a few pieces for the future that work out, then terrific. No matter what product the team puts on the field, I will follow. I’ve been indebted to the Mets for so long that I could never change my allegiance.
Joe D. – Yesterday, I was surprised to see Alex Gordon of the Kansas City Royals levy some open criticism on his front office complaining about the many years and years of collecting prospects and draft picks with no end game in sight. He applauded the trade for James Shields and felt it was about time the team added some major league muscle to the team even if it cost the team some good prospects. In some ways, that’s my gripe with this front office. They fail to keep established major league talent and value “hit or miss” prospects more than “proven and established” star players. Prospects are nice, especially when you do your due diligence and draft your own. I’m not thrilled with our drafts nor do I support trading proven commodities for other team’s prospects because of a lack of confidence in your own selection and scouting process. We were not in a position to waste our top picks on longterm projects who were never can’t miss, blue chip talents. But that’s exactly what we did. This was a team that needed an immediate infusion of high level, near MLB ready talent, talent which we left on the table in the form of Jose Fernandez in 2011 and Courtney Hawkins in 2012. When you want to embark upon a bright and new future direction for the team, it begins and ends with your own scouting, drafting and development. Words spoken by and lived by former GM Frank Cashen. I can hardly disagree. So far, thanks to some nice valuable trade chips inherited from the last regime, coupled with the growth of players like Matt Harvey, Jon Niese, Ruben Tejada and Ike Davis, I liked the direction we were already on. But it would be nice to see the new front office supplement that direction with some draft picks that would hit the ground running rather than projects that were 4-5 years away at minimum with a higher risk for failure than for success.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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I 1000% believe that this team is heading in the right direction. It will take another year for the pieces to finally come into place but I truly believe that this is the start of the upswing with 2014 being the true start of contention.
I’m happy with the direction, but not thrilled with the current major league roster.
Wish I knew….
I can understand both the arguments being made for and against here. Depends on how much you believe on what’s been made public so far.
I’m in the camp if believing the Mets had one foot in bankruptcy could going back 2 years. Given that belief, I’m mostly in agreement on what’s been done the past 2 years. Some moves were better than others.
I’m cautiously optimistic. I’ll probably have a better idea at the end of 2013. If the accumulative ‘money coming off the books’ leading into the 2013 off season is not reinvested in this team, I’ll lead the mob with the pitchforks.
I am definitely optimistic. Here is something I found hidden in todays Daily News from Jon Heyman:
A year ago Baseball America ranked the Mets’ farm system 24th among the 30 organizations. Callis said the new rankings aren’t calculated yet, but figured the Mets would improve for 2013 mainly because of the Dickey trade.
“They got a lot of value in d’Arnaud and Syndegaard,” Callis said. “That should take them from the bottom third to the middle of the pack in the rankings. Mets fans will probably say, ‘Only the middle of the pack?” But that’s actually a significant boost.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/harper-dickey-trade-start-2014-blueprint-article-1.1226133#ixzz2GBAFuJgl
After years (decades maybe?) of reading the mets have one of the worst minor league systems we have made it to the middle – Hallelujah !!
That’s all fina and dandy, but shouldn’t the focus be on improving the major league team? We traded the best pitcher in major league baseball for two prospects who could make us middle of the pack in the minors. What’s the joy in that? What about the effect it had on the major league team? Do we just sweep that under the rug?
Frankie,
Here is some more from that article:
The Mets’ brass might argue the point as well. Alderson and vice president of player development Paul DePodesta acknowledge that most of the Mets’ better prospects are in the lower levels of their system, but they cite significant interest from other GMs as proof of their trade value.
“This offseason alone,” DePodesta said on Friday, “we’ve been asked about at least a dozen players in our farm system who haven’t been mentioned in any of the various top 10 lists.
“So we definitely feel like we have the depth to make a trade if the right player were out there, whether it’s right now or a year from now.”
The Alderson regime is putting emphasis on developing pitchers, either through the draft or international signings, and it seems to be doing it well in its two-plus years on the job.
Consider that the pitching staffs at Class-A St. Lucie, low-A Savannah and short-season Brooklyn all led their leagues in ERA, WHIP, and strikeout-to-walk ratio, and it’s no wonder that Alderson & Co. believe young pitchers like Rafael Montero, Luis Mateo, Michael Fulmer and Domingo Tapia have significant trade value.
Rome wasnt built in a day or so they say. This time next year we will have more than one significant trade chip to add the hitters we need. I hope you all will click the link on my first post and read the whole article. This is giving us an insight to the plan that was revealed to David Wright. By 2014 The mets will be in a position to trade prospects and sign free agents. 2012 has been a very good year for the Mets organization. 2013 will be better and I know by 2014 this team will be set to be a solid contender built to last.
wow with what we GOT in the trade we might be in the middle of the pack where were we before? ownership has really been great haven’t they? and these guys are only prospects if they don’t become players REAL players then we GAVE away the Cy Young winner, kind of like when we gave away the batting champ FOR NOTHING!!!!
My problem with the team is that I don’t see a direction…
Are we buyers or sellers…
We give Wright a lifetime contract and we turn around and trade Dickey for prospects…
We make a brilliant trade with Beltran and blow it with Pagan, and sit on our hands with Reyes…
We spend money on Rauch and Francisco instead of Cespedes and Chapman…
I need to see a direction….and currently I don’t know which direction we are going in…
Sandy has hinted that he will spend money in 2014, if its Ellsbury….the Wright contract will make a lot more sense to me
I dont see any direction. When we signed Wright, I saw a Dickey extension coming and $25 million reinvested to bring in two outfielders and a catcher. Now I question the wisdom in signing Wright for almost 150 million, that’s crazy if you didnt plan on filling the other gaps with the $25 million.
I understand your point joe about the draft. Seeing Hawkings and McCullers left on the table really pissed me off. However, 2011 was not a bad draft. They got a lot of quality arms and Nimmo still might be a good to great pick.
That said, I think money was and is a huge factor in these drafts and its still crippling the ML team aw well. It’s not the front office holding back the cash needed to keep the talent and bring in more talent. At some point you have to realize that just because the Wilpons own a bunch of buildings, it doesn’t mean they still have money to spend on the mets.
I really doubt Fred is begging Sandy to spend more money and Sandy keeps pushing it away saying, ” no Fred, I’m gunna take a chance on Recker.”
I am not happy because money continues to be a issue for this club. There are 2 primary reasons why they are not upgrading the current roster, either they just don’t want to, or they can’t because the priority is to reduce payroll. When you have both Wright and Bay taking deferments, and Dickey being traded, that should of freed up some money to do something. At this point you still have glaring holes in the pen and outfield, our primary trade chips are gone or resigned and most decent FA’s are off the board except ones teams don’t want to pay their asking price. So I got two bones to pick. One is the Wilpon’s and their financial issues that are still a issue or just being used as a continued excuse to not do anything. The other is with Sandy and is lack of creativity or ability to do multiple things at one time. During the trade deadline they did not make one move to improve the roster, and they haven’t done it this off-season as well, and time is almost up. With 2 wilcard’s now, I find it ludicrous that there isn’t at least a minor attempt to improve this roster and build around these young guys. They are throwing in the towel before the season starts and most seem fine with it. The last two years I gave them a pass and I will refuse to give them anymore.
I don’t know what to think anymore. This was argued ad nauseum at our Christmas dinner. I just want to say that your comment really expresses the way I feel right now. I’m mad but I dont know who I’m supposed to be mad at. We don’t know enough. I just thought the second wild card was an opportunity for all weak teams like the O’s, M’s, A’s, Mets to have a better than slim chance to make the post season with minimal upgrades and for the second year we’ve done nothing to enhance those chances.
Brass Tacks:
Santana, Harvey, Niese, Gee, Wheeler (Gorski, Hefner, Familia (?))
Francisco, Parnell, Mejia, Familia, Ramirez, Carson, Edgin
d’Arnaud, Ike, Murphy, Tejada, Wright
Cowgill, Niewenhuis, Baxter, Duda – Hairston (?)
Buck, Turner, Cedeno, Baxter, Kirk
Not a horrible ML Roster
With Montero, Tapia, Syndergaard, Wilmer Flores & Fulmer at least a year away and $$$ coming off the books, I like the direction of this team.
I am not expecting the Wilpons to re-invest all, or even most, of the Bay/Santana $$$ that’s coming off the books. But I think Alderson will continue to bring in quality ball players. Also, Mets MUST change hitting philosophy and become more aggressive earlier in the count. Remember, runs scored is more important than on base percentage.
SA did (or didn’t do) two things really irked me: Allowing Reyes to walk for nothing, and not re-signing Takahashi. May seem like a little thing, but he performed so well in a NY Met uniform and filled many roles on a staff with many deficits. These were errors of omission, by failing to take action, although he’ll never say whether or to what extent his hands were tied.
Notwithstanding, I like the direction of the team.
“With Montero, Tapia, Syndergaard, Wilmer Flores & Fulmer at least a year away and $$$ coming off the books, I like the direction of this team.”
1YEAR AWAY??? Not really….
-Tapia, Syndergaard, & Fulmer are about at LEAST “3 Years” all 3 will be in High A+ ball this coming year
-Montero is about at least 2years away he ended last season in High A+(pitched 8games)
-Wilmer Flores is the only one that is 1 year away
That should at the very least change your liking of this teams direction…lol
BBLB – I understand your comment, but my observations were qualified by the phrase “at least one year”, which means, minimally, one year as in the case of Flores, or two years, as in the case of Montero, or 3 years, when you contemplate Fulmer & Syndergaard.
We would consider further, that in the absence of a trade involving our ML-ready prospects, such as Wheeler, Familia, Mejia, Carson & Edgin, that our staff will likely include those 5 at some point in 2013. Very interested to see what Gorski can add to the mix. So, as we proceed from 2013 to 2014, we can look to Montero joining the group and, from 2014-2015, Tapia & Syndergaard.
As in all prospect development scenarios, time will tell. I think most Met fans are patient enough to allow time for development, as long as the plan includes an infusion of quality ball players, whether acquired by draft, trade or free agency. SA might be wise to draw from the college ranks in the early rounds this year to infuse some outfield talent who are near ML ready, if circumstances permit.
All things being equal, I really like the direction of the franchise knowing, at least, that foolish large FA contracts won’t be handed out like flyers at Citi Field, which deplete financial resources and inhibit our draft capability.
Hi BBLB,
And as we know,the money taken off the books is mostly going back on the books in 2016 and 2017 as mentioned the other day.
So that’s why I see the direction going way down. I could see the makings of a better team beginning in 2014 and two seasons later the dismantling starts all over again.
Well I’m starting to wonder if I have learned anything about baseball at all I’ve been under the thinking that PITCHING is what its all about, now when you look at the pitchers you just listed how can you say we are going a \in the right direction and the outfielders we have Mike B, Kirk, and Lucas (don’t know anything about cowgill) ALL 3 LEFT HANDED by the way and when you put that together with the infield we will have 5 out of 8 starters hitting from the left side HOW IS THIS A GOOD THING GREAT ROSTER….GENIUS!!!
I’m very happy with the direction we going. If you think trading Dickey was a bad move I can’t argue with you simply because its a matter of opinion. My opinion is with Dickey we knew we were a sub .500 team and weren’t gonna get better. We now have a chance to improve. I like the possibility of being better a lot more then the certainty of continuing the losing ways of the past 5 years.
But what about with Dickey, a Matt Harvey with more experience, a confident Jon Niese who looks ready to be an ace, and hot kid named Zack Wheeler who should be up by mid May?
of course that would also be a possible nice outcome . its not that giving dickey a 2-3 years extension would have been a “bad” move . Its just a even better way to fill a hole on a much needed and hard to fill position, especially if you gets a promising pitcher with it . keeping RA would have been a good thing, trading high was just a even slightly better move at this time
Everybody in Philly, DC and Atlanta are thrilled with the job Alderson is doing. And the Marlin fans; they are happy also to have a team to compete with for last place and lowest payroll. Its awesome.
Yes, I’m happy with the direction of the team and more importantly the organization. My evaluation is not based on where the team finishes in 2013. That ship sailed a couple years ago.
The Mets have been quite clear about what they are doing, shedding large veteran contracts and rebuilding with youth. They can’t throw all the savings into 2013 payroll because they are still in a precarious situation as an organization. That may not be what I want but it is where they are.
2014 was always going to be the year when they started supplementing the roster with selective FAs or trades to try and put a real contending team on the field. To do that they need to first get their financial house in order, rebuild the farm organization to both provide major league players and provide trading chips and build the core of the major league roster for the future.
The 2013 infield of Wright, Tejeda, Murphy, Ike and d’Arnaud is for the most part young and solid. The pitching staff will miss Dickey out of the gate but there are some very good young arms that could provide the core of the staff for years to come as well as some interesting pen options in the minors. Everyone knows the OF is our achilles heel and it needs to be addressed. I don’t see the Mets having the resources or quite frankly the desire to trade away some of our young talent to bring in the power corner OF positions we need right now because we are not in win now mode.
2014 is the year this experiment needs to start paying dividends and thats when we should be in a financial position to add the talent at key positions. If not, then I will be the first to say that this direction has not panned out. 2013 is a year to evaluate the young talent and see who are the keepers for the future.
Boomer…..
“Everyone knows the OF is our achilles heel and it needs to be addressed. I don’t see the Mets having the resources or quite frankly the desire to trade away some of our young talent to bring in the power corner OF positions we need right now because we are not in win now mode”
I’m in agreement with everything you say, except with regard to your statement above……I really feel they should trade from their strength now. And I don’t mean giving up a boat load of pitching prospects for a proven outfielder, but a pitching prospect/prospects for an equally rated outfield prospect with power. Sort of like an even trade to for the purpose of starting to build some offensive talent in the system.
MetsWatchman-
I don’t disagree and I’m not sure they aren’t having these discussions as we speak. For every trade rumor that goes public I’m sure there are dozens that fly under the radar, particularly when it comes to prospects as opposed to major league talent.
The point I was trying to make is I’m not surprised the Mets aren’t putting together a package of young prospects for a proven vet today. Lets face it, they are in budget cutting mode and I don’t see them paying a big salary this year unless they get a deal that is just to incredible to pass up.
Jim said it just clear
“I guess I will say I’m confident in the direction of the team and the front office because I really have no control over it. I’ve placed my trust in the front office to improve the team. If trading R.A. Dickey means getting back a few pieces for the future that work out, then terrific. No matter what product the team puts on the field, I will follow. I’ve been indebted to the Mets for so long that I could never change my allegiance.”
Finally someone put a stop to the nonsense that was Billionaire Fred’s reckless spending. So what if it took a slap from Uncle Bud and the backing of the commish to get Alderson to do what needed to be done. The bottom line is the Mets are heading in the right direction for the first time in decades.
Fred only cared about the upcoming season. All decisions were made to improve that team and forget the rest. The fact that he preferred to spend the entire budget on the big league club while never going over slot in the draft shows his priorities. Why get future talent in when you can buy it? That mindset resulted in basically nothing to show for the last 20+ years.
Alderson is following a proven method for building a winning baseball organization. Sadly, the major league club is the last to benefit from this approach. Today, there are more assets in the Mets organization than there were a couple of years ago. The caliber of the Mets prospects is much higher than it was. This is a result of dedicated focus of building towards the future. The only way to contend year in and year out is to build a solid foundation from within, have prospects to fill in and trade for needed pieces, and fill in with trades and FAs. Trying to buy a championship might result in a 3 or 4 year run but then is followed by a hard collapse. Mets fans have endured this twice since 2000.
I foresee one more year of struggle at the big league level while the organization figures out what it has in certain players (Kirk, Duda, Den Dekker, Baxter, Tejada, young BP arms). The advantage to this approach is that those who are not cutting it can be shipped out to Vegas with replacements brought in. At some point in 2013 (early 2014 the latest), if he does fairly well, I see Ike given a long term contract. Also, a guy like Murphy, with a good year, can increase his trade value if the Mets decide he isnt the long term option. The same is true for Flores if he has a good year in Vegas. As a few other players move up through the farm system, their values also increase, giving the Mets a few pieces to actually trade for some major league talent. That will be a refreshing position as compared to having basically two prospects who have any kind of value (Wheeler/Flores).
I have a feeling most Met fans will be very happy with the position of the organization come this time next year.
I will be happy when the Wilpons sell the team…They dont spend properly and they can not draft worth a chit…!!!..Mets are a joke as long as the Wilpons are the owners,,period!!
I agree with you, Mikieboy… Sandy Alderson was brought in here for one reason… and one reason only. That was to cut salary. The Wilpons will have money problems for years. They don’t give a damn about the team on the field. Fred wants only to make sure that Jeff will lead this team. To do that, they have to tread water until later this decade. This team isn’t going to good for years. Wilpon is playing the fans like a violin. This is a 65 win team in ’13…. God only knows after that….Perhaps the sea of empty seats at Citi Field will drive the Wilp[ons top sell.
I like the direction the team is going in for the future but for 2013 it sucks! Cody Ross sat their
for anyone to sign and as AZ signed him we were still kicking his tires! Sandy is so slow and
can’t chew gum and walk at the same time and even though he has assistants he couldn’t trade Dicky and sign a major FA (Like Ross) at the same time, oh I forgot he made the Cogwell trade!! Maybe he did it on purpose so they wouldn’t have to spend money and only
kicked the tires of Ross to make it look like the mets were serious? So right now we have no
right fielder(Baxter doesn’t count) and our choices for CF are not thrilling either and still not sure about Duda and with him breaking his wrist he’s a big question mark! So as of right now our out field is one big joke!! I’m sure their are other teams with minor league out fields that are better than ours! I know their is still time to make a trade or sign Bourne or Hairston but I
don’t have the faith that SA will sign either, so can you say waiver wire or Matt Diaz? He hasn’t
even started on our bullpen and if they are going to sign Young or the other washed up has
been pitchers available because nobody wants them I would rather go with Hefner or the
other choices for fifth starter allready on our team!! I guess I will just have to enjoy watching
Harvey, Niese, and Wheeler (when he comes up) and our new catching prospect (also when
he comes up) devolop!! I can’t wait for 2014!!!!!!!!
I will be happy with the direction of the team when I actually feel as if our mLB roster actually has a chance to go .500. Yup. 2015 it is. Yay.
Ive seen worse teams on paper than the 2013 Mets do well & even win world series’.
IE: The 2010-2012 Giants, and the Rays since 2008. Neither one of those teams can hit their way out of a paper bag, but have been consistently contending because of their pitching.
The 2013 Mets will have a good starting rotation, IF they stay healthy. And, a better offensive line-up than either one of those teams. Remember that we were shockingly good in the first half of 2012 until Gee went down. Santana, Harvey, Niese, Gee, & Hefner is not a bad SR.
Of course it would have been better with Dickey & I hated to see him go, but if D’Arnoud pans out to be the next Pudge Rdgz. we will be better off than 90% of MLB teams who have horrible catchers. After all a 5-tool catcher is absolutely the hardest asset to find in baseball, just ABOVE a starting rotation ACE.
I Loved Dickey, and I wouldnt have pulled the plug on that trade but its done so we can only hope those prospects pan out.
Obviously we have holes, but my point is that plenty of franchises over the years have been successful with similar holes.
I think we should re-sign Rauch and pull off a trade w/an american league team, Duda for a MLB ready right fielder.
Whoever does not like it will in the near future
2014 : The year of the Mets bandwagon lol
This is the WORST comment EVER…..
“Matt Strachman – Sandy Alderson is a stoic genius”
LMAO….you have to back that statement up with facts buddy….At first I was taking aback that any Mets fan would mention Sandy as being a genius….
BUT when I came across this article by YOU everything started to make sense…….
So below you basically explain that you are………
An ex Braves fan whom jumped ship when there reign was over in the 90′s to the Mets bandwagon in the year 2000 when they coincidentally went to the World Series(cough: badwagon)but you dont stop there you mention how you secretly Lust to root for the YANKEES…
OMG….You root for everything the Mets and there fans hate the ARCH ENEMIES in this sports world…lol…You are the poster boy of “bandwagon-dom”…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yankees Rundown, Part I: BATTING
By
“HIS DUDENESS” AKA “MATT STRACHMAN”
Well hello Crazy Yankee Chick nation. To make a long story short, my name is Matt Strachman and I am a straight up baseball junkie. Your general, CYC, was kind enough to offer me free reign to speak whatever truths and nonsense comes to mind, and while I’m chomping at the bit to get the creative juices flowing, let’s quickly clear up some preliminary matters first. I grew up rooting for the Braves, basically because I had a serious man crush on John Smoltz, Greg Maddux, Chipper Jones, and of course, The Big Cat, Andres Galarraga. Fast forward through the ‘90s and I suddenly found myself cheering for the Yankees wanna-be-cross-town-rivals, the Metsies. But as time passes I find it more and more difficult to ignore my yearning to embrace and root for the Bronx Bombers. I swear I’m not a slut, but you simply have to follow your heart. So here I am, taking the plunge and joining your love affair. I must admit, it feels oh so right.
Well it is a God Damn pleasure to be here, and I figure a nice little lineup rundown would be a perfect introduction.
http://crazyyankeechick.blogspot.com/2012_06_01_archive.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You coasted throught the 90′s with the Braves when Mets fans were suffering now you wanna jump ship to the Stankees while we are struggling again lol….Thats Classic
~Welcome To MetsMerized where we do full background checks lol
LOL, a stoic genius! OMG what a find by BBLB!
LOL….Yeah isnt it CRAZY! Couldnt believe what i was reading
I think by now it’s pretty clear how I feel but I’ll layout some bullet points to review….
1 – MONEY – I don’t buy the lack of Money excuse AT ALL. Lets face facts here, they saved roughly 8 mil on Bay, Another 8 on Wright and anywhere from 5 – 10 Mil on Dickey (considering his trade saved us only the 5 mil we owed him or the 10 Mil it would have taken to extend him). That leaves 21-26 Mil to spend on what we needed in a Market that was FLUSH with adequate and Roster worthy OF Talent. Name the OFer who will be FA in 2014 which is when most who LIKE the direction think we are going to start spending.
2 – BUDGET (or Money part II) – If you think 100Mil is an adequate budget for a team in a Major Market your just nuts.And guess what the Budget is more like 80 Million now that Wright and Bay deferred and Dickey has been traded. How low must the budget go before they can spend on decent players as opposed to waiting until the only option for the remaining players we could sign is the Mets or Japan/Korea just to get a good price?
3 – REBUILDING – If we were rebuilding. If we were shedding high payroll and performers for kids we would HAVE more kids than performers we let go. Beltran, K-Rod, Reyes, and Dickey went out and coming in are Wheeler and d’Arnaud and in two years (fingers crossed) Snydergard. 4 Top MLB players out the door and only Two and a Half REAL Prospects came back? Thats rebuilding? Would the Oakland A’s (and Beane the king of Moneyball) get back so little if they had those guys to trade? If we were rebuilding we would not have punted on half a draft, refused slot on our best pick of 2012, Would not have targeted kids that would make useless the picks we DID decide to sign, and if we were rebuilding the MLB team we WOULD have at least made a few trades of all these kids deemed not worth trading for some Mediocre or servicable MLB talent so we would not have to troll the reject piles or rush up AAA kids to fill in the Roster so we could be allowed to play in the MLB.
4 – REBUILDING (Part II) – What are we rebuilding exactly the MLB squad or the MiL squad? What have we filled for the future so far? We traded for a Starting Pitcher which was great but then traded away a Cy Young Pitcher (a wash on Pitching at best) to get a Catcher making one of our top Draft picks useless. We re-signed Wright which made our best hitting prospect USELESS. We traded away Pagan and pretty much killed the OF for guys who were pretty much USELESS. SO what have we actually fixed here? Past Wheeler and d’Arnaud there isn’t anything in the Minors save maybe Nimmo in two more years if your lucky to fix any issues this team will face should it happen to compete for something in the next 3 years. SO what pray tell is going to sustain any winning you think is about to happen in the future? You can’t stick with the Spending failed excuse to promote a thrifty plan and then applaud that plan that is dependednt on you doing a lot of spending in a single year as the endgame of this plan you like. Here is something of a truth some don’t seem to realize, By the time YOUR READY it is too late to spend! There will never be enough FA talent in a single offseason to buy to make this core of 4 or 5 kids a winner. Yankees had all thier FAs before the 95 Class came up! The time to build around those kids is NOW while they are still developing so that when they come up they are not trying to succeed with scrubs all around them, So they have good vet leadership (like Gooden and Darling did) to guide them through the landmines of the MLB rookie season. And so you don’t waste some pretty good years of an up and coming Phenom you promoted (as we will with Harvey and Wheeler) if they see the MLB this year with no OF to catch for them and no Bullpen to make thier good efforts a win or to bail them out when they get into trouble and get them a no decision. We all talk about bringing up kids when they are ready but that is only smart when the team is ready to help them be all they can be. You can just as easily (if not more) ruin a Kids confidence by making him play with a bad team behind him and have the losses mount as you will by bringing him up TOO EARLY with a good team behind him.
5 – DEVELOPMENT – People think we have improved the development system here. I dare those who think that to name the Kid(s) that has been transformed because of that! Tejada being one of the better kids to come up recently did not go through thier DEVSYS and Niether did Ike. Harvey was already Harvey before they got here and the truth is Wheeler and d’Arnaud will be more what they were before they even got here than anything to do with how well we developed anyone.
6 – SUTAINABLE WINNER – Just going to point out something here…In order to SUSTAIN winning you have to actually win something and at this rate there is no indication they will even be a one and done team let alone have any indication they could sustain it merely by getting one Catcher and two pitchers which is all they have gotten at this point… one Prospect per year and thats ASSuming Snydergard is any good at all considering he is just an A Ball Pitcher.
7 – FINANCES – If you think cutting Payroll is helping finances well good luck with that because attendance has declined every year since Sandy took over and we lost 23Mil in a year we had that 100MIl payroll (actually slightly less). DO you think a payroll of 77 Mil is good enough to solve the real issue of lack of attendance? If you do then I suggest you ask yourself if you plan on buying tickets because if you think things are good and on the path to success but do not intend to buy more than single digits or low teens worth of tickets who IS going to buy them? All of us who think the team is not good enough to spend money or waste time on seeing? The issue of Finances is blamed on everything but what the actual cause of the issue is….US! We have punted on going to see them even faster than Sandy punts on a Season and throws in the towel. Thats largely because people do not LIKE what they see and those who DO don’t seem to be interested in paying to see what they think is a good roster worth having.
8 – BLAME – I find it odd that those who say We don’t know enough think they know enough to put this on the Wilpons and not the guy who invented the concept of not spending for what has transpired. Everyone started off thinking that Sandy was FINALLY a GM here who would stand up to and marginalize Jeff and Fred, Then we revised it to Well the Wilpons set the Budget and one short year later we are now saying the Wilpons FORCED Sandy to sign this one trade that one as if Sandy is just a messenger boy and not really running the show…But he is doing a good job and makes good moves when he makes them, Only the WIlpons are to blame when something we do not like happens….How convenient to have such a blame fly paper around to catch all the annoying grief and protect the non-spending darling!
9 – PLANS – Plans eventually have an endgame. Unfortunatly this one doesn’t seem to have one. Some think a spending spree is the endgame well if that works then what was all that crap anout spending hurts the franchise? People say the goal is to build a sustainable winning team. How do you do that exactly? By having three decades worth of kids waiting in the Minors? Well we have about a kId per decade at this point so obviously while I think trades we made could have netted us more lets just assume they can’t for this argument. Well then the only conclusion that should be made is TRADING is not a reasonable method for rebuilding your Minors, You can’t get enough back in trades. So whats left? DRAFTING! Did we collect as many kids as we could have the last two years to have a good shot at filling up those Minors with the kids that will sustain us should pigs fly and we win? By not signing 2nd rounders to slot and punting on half a draft (and no just because you got IFAs is no reason to let half your draft go sorry because you should have done BOTH at those prices!) Is that not important to the goal some say exists but seems to be counter to what our actions seem to suggest? Do you think that trading the few kids who show they are great players for more kids later on is actually going to sustain the winning? Not with the bust rate of Kids they won’t! In the end this plan is a perpetual motion machine, Never being quite good enough to win anything (therefore never good enough to spend) as whenever a really good player is seen and nears FA he will be traded for something 4 years from now essentially trading today’s wins for tomorrow’s hope.
10 – CONCLUSION – This team is NOT rebuilding…It may start next year maybe in 2015, maybe with this draft or as I suspect NEVER. Truth is we are still in the proccess of DECONSTRUCTION of the team not rebuilding. And we have pretty much run out of players to trade to rebuild with so unless you think we have collected such a dearth of kids to trade with, your Minor Rebuild is pretty much limited to Drafting talent. This is where Cashen started and it took him 5 years from that point even WITH Mazillia and Brooks left to trade. We have Wright and Niese at this point with Davis a maybe and Duda a longshot until he gets his bat going again. SO we have collected all the kids you can get using the methods we have used to date. As I pointed out 4 All Stars and all we have to show for it is two PROMISING Kids who seem to be poised for promotion this year yet they have little to show playing behind them unlike the team Jeter, Posada, Williams and Rivera had when they came up. SO anyone who thinks spending kills you please stop telling me that spending is going to make all this better next year, Those who think the Minors are going to sustain us please name the names they think exist that didn’t exist in those Minors the last two years that will sustain us in the years ahead. And anyone who thinks Wilpon is the problem not Sandy please tell us all how Sandy can be doing a good job when all he is doing is what Wilpon tells him to? I say if your not part of the solution your part of the problem and should be purged faster than you can say Cy Young Pitcher!
Is there a Kindle version of this coming?
Well said. Couldn’t agree more. This front office excels at pulling the rug over our eyes. I was hopeful when Sandy came on but that faded somewhat quickly. Look at their moves and you can see how schizo this club is. And they way they treated Dickey up until the trade? That was just classless.
“Everyone started off thinking that Sandy was FINALLY a GM here who would stand up to and marginalize Jeff and Fred….”
SA extending DW was blatantly against SA’s “No second Generation ” contracts. DW’s extension has Jeff Wilpon;s name written all over it. Thatn is both Literally and Figuratively.
And I won’t argue here that it wasn’t thier idea….Neither will I argue that trading Dickey wasn’t thier idea either….
Point being if that was thier idea and their decision why should I assume only the GOOD moves were his decision and all the bad was someone else?
Either he is running this team or he isn’t!
And while it might be unfair to shoot the messenger I’m not about to pat him on the back for doing a good job when the job being done sucks and the best you can say about him is he implemented it against his will….
If they are calling the shots then Sandy isn’t doing a good job just being a messenger boy for the Wilpons….
If he is calling the shots then a duck is a duck and he gets the blame….
No matter who you want to blame the team is getting worse not better, Further away from winning and closer to losing…
Both the Wilpons and Sandy are involved and I won’t sit here and say things are getting better using only what they percieve Sandy WOULD do as opposed to what he has actually done by his own orders of orders he has followed.
“Either he is running this team or he isn’t!”
He’s running the team under the parameters that he’s given by the owners. Why is it so hard for you to understand that Numb N*ts. Just like any GM…..they’re given a budget and must operate within the parameters of that budget. The owners set the budget, plain and simple. If its the spending you have a problem with…blame the owners. If its the moves within the parameters of the budget….blame the GM. It’s that simple.
Yep and Joe McDonald traded Seaver under the parameters he was given….
I guess we should all give him a standing ovation for the Seaver trade as a JOB WELL DONE….
Cause thats what you numb nuts are doing here!
I definitely think the team is heading in the right direction. Boomer and Taskmaster said everything I needed to say. Frank Cashen himself sad Sandy was the perfect hire for the Mets when he was hired. That’s good enough for me.
This post pretty much sums up the one common denominator in everyone who likes the job Sandy is doing….
These folks prefer to let others do thier thinking for them as it is just too hard for them to do any thinking on thier own!
…He is paid to be a GM he Must know what he is doing….
…Other GMs like the move so it MUST be good….
…Cashen thought he was the right guy for the job and who am I to argue? (Note hasn’t said jack SINCE Sandy got hired)
Lemmings just following whatever the guy in front tells them to go even after they see the guy in front fall off the cliff….
This is why America is declining the way it has….
Too many people letting others think for them because they are too lazy to think and REASON for themselves….
Sad isn’t it?
No Metsie……you know what’s really sad……
You come here everyday and express such anger about things you have absolutely no control over and no way of changing. The Wilpons are greedy crooks. The Wilpons didn’t sell. Sandy was hired to save them from losing the ballclub and has broken it down and is rebuilding. We all know this. All these are “givens” and all the ranting and anger in the world is not going to change that.
Most of us really don’t know each other except for coming here reading what we write. I don’t know if you are a religious man, but here’s a little prayer that I always liked. You don’t even have to be religious to capture the essence of it because its message holds so true:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference”
Please don’t be so angry at the posters and disparage them because the givens have been accepted by some. We are just debating how the team is moving forward after accepting the things we cannot change.
Oh so since I can’t change it I should just fool myself into thinking everything is great instead….
Who is the ignorant one between the two of us?
A mugger kills your wife….Since you couldnt do anything about it you should think the Mugger is really a GREAT guy and what he did was not wrong but a prodyuct of the situation society put him in….
Please you guys only think things are good because it suits your self therapy hoping to avoid the DEPRESSION and SUICIDAL TENDENCIES you would be going through if you just stopped and smelled the coffee of reality!
Fool yourselves if you must to feel better but keep your therapy to yourself because I don’t need head shrinking I am STRONG AND SMART enough to call this SUCK a SUCK!
“A mugger kills your wife….Since you couldnt do anything about it you should think the Mugger is really a GREAT guy and what he did was not wrong but a prodyuct of the situation society put him in”
THAT my friend has got to be one of the most psychotic analogies I have ever heard of, to which doesn’t even justify a response.
It’s idiotic to you but basically fits the what you said was the reason to like Sandy…
And event you could NOT control so might as well enjoy it and applaud it happening since you had no choice!
If it seems idiotic to you then thats because your premise for thinking what Sandy has done is good is just as idiotic….
Which is why you can’t really reply!
What he’s done is bad (maybe not murder but it’s bad nonetheless) and you should like it because you have no choice in the matter…..
Add this to the end of your prayer
To LOVE everything I hate because it makes me feel good!
It’s more than just what Cashen thinks. It’s what I think. He’s bulding a team the right way from the ground up, something you’ll never understnd. Also the best way to look at things is to go with the opposite of what Metsie thinks. If you think Sandy sucks then he must be doing a good job. If you were to say Sandy is great then it would most likely mean he sucks.
Yep from the ground up?
With what….
Name all the names he has built with….
Can you even name three names that constitute building?
I’ve named them all numerous times on many different threads. Wheeler, d’Arnaud, Syndergaard, Montero, Mateo, Fulmer, Nimmo, Cecchini, etc… All in the name of all those allstars that couldn’t win more than 79 games but got paid like they were winning 99.
Oh you mean all those guys you say are worthless and unwanted by anyone that has an OFer who you could trade for to fix this year?
Hmmm I guess there is a Fairy coming in the next two years to tap them on the shoulder and make them out to be the CORNERSTONES of this franchise like you are suggesting they are….
Please Fonzie you know that half those guys are busts at minimum and probability says maybe ONE or TWO of them will actually make up for what a Beltran and Cy Young pitcher would gve you….
But keep dreaming the dream….
Whenever you guys wake Up I willbe there to rub alll your Bull dung in your face!
You mean like half the free agents we sign that bust. Difference being they don’t hog up your payroll and roster spot if they do bust. You simply move on to the next waive of prospects in your system. That’s why you build depth througout your system instead of banking on 1 or 2 prospects every 5 years like the Mets have done for 20 plus years. Ochoa and nobody else. Escobar, Milledge, F-Mart. Cashen had his share of busts but he had enough talent in the system that he did strike gold with. Amazing that you don’t understand this.
HAHAHAH an what percentage of free agent signings Alderson has made did NOT bust?
As for who Omar Signed lets review…
Martinez – Not a bust by any means…
Beltran – Worth EVERY penny not a bust…
Delgado – Earned his keep!
Wagner – Hardly a bust
K-Rod – 40+ saves is a bust? What does that make Rauch?
Alou – Earned his money the first year, only the extention was even close to busted.
on the Minus side
Perez – Bust
Castillo – Not really at 8 Mil per he was not a bust just not a superstar and didnt get paid like one either…
Bay – Complete Bust….
So out of 9 Free Agents only two busts constitutes HALF….
Yep remedial math is in order here….
Metsie – u forgot about RA Dickey 2010…
K-Rod paid as a top closer, was slightly above average as a Met. Did not live up to his contract and cost draft pick that could’ve turned into Mike Trout
Wagner put up great numbers in the regular season until he pitched in a game that mattered where he made Armando Benitez look like Mariano Rivera. His 16.88 ERA in the 06 NLCS says it all and career 10.03 postseason ERA is not someone you want on your team when your putting together a championship club. Thats 2 closers for 80 million costing 2 draft picks and one playoff appearance. Rauch 1 year at 3.5, cost no picks and gave 3.5 worth of performance. How do you even compare the 2?
Pedro had 1 good year for 52 million, bust.
Alou 100 games over 2 years hit well when he played but didn’t play enough and cost a draft pick and spot on the 40. Bust.
Castillo 4 yr 24 million. That’s 6 million per not 8 but it’s still a bust and an assinine contract for a 32 yr old with bad knees. bust. Only you would say castillo was not a bust.
Beltran 3 good years, 2 good half seasons, 2 bad years, 1 due to injury. Not a bust but not worth every penny. Good signing but it did not work out entirely.
Delgado 2 good years 1 bad year. He was traded for and did not sign an extension so he was not a free agent. Good trade, salary dump.
Scott Schoeneweis-Bust
Guillermo Mota-Bust.
What about before Omar? Do you need to be reminded of the free agent signings and trades for aging stars that busted before that?
LOL one game makes Wagner a bust…..
I won’t even bother to respond to the stupidity that can come up with that!
One game? Wagner never saved a big game in his life. Not with any team. He was the premier choke artist for closers.
So glad Cashen was not tasked with filling seats, winning now + rebuilding the farm immediately.
u can do either the first 2 or the last one…but not all 3 at the same time
Actually Metsie, America is in decline because of the exact same philosophy you espouse on here everyday. Spend spend spend. People have no control over their emotions and demand instant gratification. Waiting for anything is beyond them. And this idea is magnified when talking about other people’s money. This is the idea that you promote. McMansions are wanted and deserved (Jason Bay). Pull out the charge card and ring it up. Make a bad decision….who cares…spend more. Save for the future? The hell with that. The only thing that matters is right now.
Thank you for drawing the analogy for us so everyone can see how truly destructive your ideas are. You want a GM who is like a teenager at the mall with daddy’s credit card: Spend and consequences be damned. Sorry. The Mets had that in Omar and he left them as a pathetic organization.
Exactly!
No Taskmaster this country is in decline because thegovt TAKES 1 Dollar and only spends 10 Cents of it to actually do what it said it was taking the money to do….
Kind of similar to what the Mets have done by raising Ticket Prices (Taxes) yet will not spend any of that money on putting a better team on the field!
There is a BIG HUGE GAP you seem happy to ignore….
There is a HUGE difference between NOT SPENDING and SPEND SPEND SPEND….
You guys all think that spending means jumping to a 200Mil budget….
Which actually does work but no one is proposing….
All we are saying is this 100Mil budget is hurting this team….
We are spending all of the money just spending it on shit that doesn’t get the job done…
JUST like Obama!
And all of your SAVINGS has done nothing towards making a good team….
Are you serious? The government spends $1.5 dollars for every dollar it takes in on everything that it promises. It gives something to everyone. Free rides to go around.
$.10 on the dollar? Maybe you should read up and understand exactly what our deficit is.
As for the comparison to the Mets, as I have pointed out to you on numerous occasion, the Mets spent money and their attendance and win totals went down. It is sad that you choose to repeatedly ignore the true facts about what is going on to defend your indefensible position and viewpoint that is so often proven to be a loser. I am sure you are happy with the Mets success over the last 20+ years with free spending Fred making sure salaries are high. But the truth is that most Met fans are sensible enough to see how asinine this approach is and the results it garnered. Sadly, you simply are not one of those people. That is okay. It will become clear to you in time.
Tell me how much you paid in Taxes and how much government assitance you got in return….
Tell me it’s more than 10 cents on the dollar….
Noe they don’t spend 1.5 of every dollar they spend…They spend 4 times what they take in and most of that is due to OVERHEAD of creating the beauacracy that has to be hired to give you back that dime of service.
Wow. No wonder we are going broke.
Our wonderful public education system in action.
Well said.
Yankee fans might beg to differ
With the exception of botching the Reyes situation ( maybe due to changing of the financial situation) and a few, ultimately meaningless shortterm moves that haven’t worked but won’t have any lasting effects, pretty happy and confident about the direction,
There’s a fundamenally sound plan in place to build a longterm winner here.
The farm system is in better shape than at any point over the past 25+ years. Thanks both to Sandy and Omar.
There are virtually no longterm payroll obligations beyond two team friendly deals to Wright (30) and Niese (26) who should remain productive over the next 5+ years.
A wave of promsing young talent, led by Harvey, Wheeler and D’Arnaud is set to make an impact at the big league level.
Obviously, there’s no guarantee it’ll work – however the odds look pretty good: Good young talent and prospect depth to go with financial flexibility.
And while the ownership group probably will never be able to afford a 175 million $ payroll, increasing revenue by putting a winning product on the field in a large market should allow for future payrolls in the 120 to 160 million $ range again by 2016 and beyond.
Until then 90 to 110 million $ payrolls should suffice with all the young talent about to enter.
How do you and all the other guys who say the plan is sound, know that since Alderson won’t release the plan. The plan is a secret to Alderson Wright and Wilpon but you all know its good. Wow!
“There’s a fundamenally sound plan in place to build a longterm winner here.”
I have to ask…..
Since you all say d’Arnaud and Wheeler will come up this year….and since you also say…
“The farm system is in better shape than at any point over the past 25+ years.”
Since Wheeler and d”Arnaud are the only real prospects added to that farm what makes you say and who do you think is making this team a longterm winner here?
And what else has changed a bad farm to a good one?
You guys say the farm is in the best shape it has been in years but the only real additions won’t be there very long, and at best your right back where you started when Sandy took over only two years have gone by in the meantime.
Well, I guess you have a strong opinion about there being no plan in place and the farm system not being very much improved. To me, the contrary is obvious.
# 1 Improved farm system:
In another post, I mentioned the ratings of Mets prospects by John Sickels who hands out grades every year.
After 2006 and after 2009, the Mets had 13 prospects total each time who graded C+ or better. Most organizations usually finish with 16 to 20 prospects getting a C+ or better grade, so that was below average. Also, these grades came after seasons with almost no graduations of significant young players losing rookie eligibility.
After this season, the Mets had 25 (!) prospects total who received a grade of C+ or better.
Do the math and even if you take out Wheeler – D´Arnaud – Syndergaard – three very good additions from the outside – that still leaves 22 prospects with C+ or better grades and thus far more than at any time Sickels has done these lists.
Obviously, this is no science and there is no guarantee that any of the individual prospects will become a quality major leaguer. But almost doubling that total within a couple of years certainly is a very positive development as it greatly increases the odds of eventually coming up with major leaguers or having plenty of trade bait without damagin your system.
Part of the reason for the 2007 & 2008 collapses was Minaya´s (rightful) unwillingness to part with some of his few good remaining prospects. He refused to part with Pelfrey for Chad Cordero at the 2007 deadline. And he refused to part with Niese & F.Martinez for Raul Ibanez at the 2008 deadline. Both times rightfully so as those teams would have hurt the Mets longterm. But deals like that would have been possible with a deeper system – and maybe the Mets would have been in the playoffs in those two years with a better prospect base. Again, not blaming Omar, just stating the downside of a constantly thin farm system.
And beyond those 25 C+ or better prospects, 5 young players who all would have figured to have received C+ or better grades, i.e. Harvey, Mejia, Edgin, Nieuwenhuis and Valdespin all lost their rookie eligibility in 2012.
# 2 The plan
The obvious plan is to create a fresh start payroll wise. For the past 10+ years, we´ve always been waiting out bad contracts to expire. From Mo Vaughn to Kaz Matsui to Luis Castillo to Oliver Perez to Jason Bay and to Johan Santana, significant parts of the payroll were headed to players with subpar production (compared to the money they make, Johan Santana did pitch quite well in the first half of 2012 – just not worth 25+ million annually anymore).
As of today, the Mets´ 2014 payroll projects to be in the 60 to 65 millionen $ range, even including deferred payments to Jason Bay. The key is aligning the progress of a young team to an expanding payroll. Once you have a performing roster in place, you are able to sustain it by extending the young players and supplementing them with veterans from the outside. Thus, you can gradually raise payroll as your revenue rises again. Look, there´s no denying that the Wilpons´ have been in deep financial distress. They cannot afford an LA Dodgers M.O. where all you care about is the value of the asset (i.e. ownership shares) and don´t care about possible operating losses if you raise the overall value of the franchise. That´s only a valid plan if you either plan to sell again eventually or swim in cash so it doesn´t matter. Neither is the case with the Wilpons unfortunately.
And to make the major league team stronger you do it via trades. Like the Reds acquired Mat Latos or Shin Soo Choo for a bunch of prospects or the Nats acquired Gio Gonzalez. Or the Red Sox acquired Adrian Gonzalez a couple of winters ago – or like the Mets traded for Gary Carter and Bobby Ojeda in the mid 80s dipping into their enormous well of young talent.
Having created this depth will allow the Mets to make similar moves WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT – which could be after next season, but also could be after 2014 or 2015. It depends on how quickly the wave of young pitching is established in the majors.
# 3 A final note.
Still puzzled about any supposed relation between acquiring D´Arnaud and drafting Plawecki. Now, we all agree that the value of Jose Reyes wasn´t maximized. He should either have been extended or traded but not let go for two picks. However, we may never know the full story behind it – financial needs to keep him to keep revenue up or dwindling budgets or change of opininion on his longterm health. Who knows.
However, Plawecki – who probably starts 2013 in Savannah and is certainly at least two full seasons away from his major league debut – will go on his way totally regardless of what happens with D´Arnaud. Look at the Blue Jays. They were able to acquire the reigning NL Cy Young award winner by parting with their top prospect C – because they already had a solid young C in the majors in JP Arencibia. The Reds were able to acquire Mat Latos last winter because they had a top C prospect in Yasmani Grandal who was expendable with another top C prospect in Devin Mesoraco and a solid veteran in Ryan Hanigan on the major league roster. Considering Plawecki a botched pick because of the D´Arnaud trade is among the least convincing arguments I have read on this site (and there certainly have been plenty of them). Who knows. Plawecki may be a total bust and never have any significant trade value. But there´s also the chance that he´ll give the Mets very good options a couple of years down the road – by trading him or by trading D´Arnaud, depending on what makes more sense.
Lucas Duda, Niese, Murphy and Ike all got C+’s…and miraculously did better in the majors…
pawlecki spent 30% of the season as a DH, is said to not have the best receiving skills and may move to another position (1B ?)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=plawec000kev
Err, Plawecki is and should remain a C and the reports on his defense are fine. And I´m not even mentioning the glowing reports by Paul DePodesta who is obviously quite biased but rather excerpts from Baseball America´s 2012 Mets Draft Report Card regarding Plawecki:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/news/2012/2614209.html
” …Plawecki shows soft hands and quick feet behind the plate, helping his average arm play up…”
“…C Kevin Plawecki (1s) utilizes a compact swing to make consistent contact, striking out just 29 times in three seasons at Purdue…”
“…Plawecki has plus raw pop to his pull side and is more of a doubles hitter when he goes the other way…”
Pretty much your Paul Loduca or Russel Martin type skill set with a tad more power than Loduca and a tad better contact skill than Martin maybe, if all goes well. Obviously, Plawecki is a long way off and may never reach the majors. But it´s nice to know that the Mets have more potential options at C longterm besides newly acquired Travis D´Arnaud.
Again, obviously getting two draft picks for Jose Reyes, i.e. essentially two lottery tickets, wasn´t what should have been done. For whatever reasons – unlike with Beltran and Dickey – the Mets and the front office failed to maximize Reyes´ value if he wasn´t going to be extended longterm. Still, Plawecki is a solid prospect with promise who will be very interesting to follow in full season A-ball in 2013.
” C Kevin Plawecki (1s) utilizes a compact swing to make consistent contact, striking out just 29 times in three seasons at Purdue.”
LMAO
so about that defense?
if his defense was so great in 2012….exactly why did they DH him for 1/3 of the season?
Juan Centeno has a better chance of making a mlb roster as a catcher than kevin plawecki
If they had any confidence at all in Plawecki, I’m sure they wouldn’t have targeted a catcher of the future as their top offseason priority and one that would cost them the best pitcher in baseball and their biggest trade chip. Plawecki never amounted to more than a backup to begin with. Their drafts have been awful. DePodesta is awful. Dont quote him because he’s a legend only in his own mind, and maybe in a few posters mind’s here.
Not necessarily true.
Plawecki may still be seen as a legit Major League catcher. D’Arnaud is just projected a perennial All Star. An everyday catcher is a good thing, an All Star catcher is a great thing.
And having an extra Major League level catcher in your system to trade is also a good thing.
Just because you are in a good spot in one aspect doesn’t mean you don’t improve if you can.
Also, Plawecki just finished half a season in the New York Penn League. D’Arnaud is debuting in June at the latest.
I’l say this Maniac, if they managed to get the best OF prospect that would hit as well or better than d’Arnaud (and was healthier too) I would have much less problem letting Dickey go….
But the fact we only have a draft and a half of kids in two years and we made a deal to make one of our top picks useless
Just because a Catcher is harder to find doesn’t mean you should pay more to get it.
From a FO that seems to LOVE the word Patienceand Development this deal appears to be a case where they lost patience and didn’t want to wait for the development.
I will always believe this deal was made for the same reasons Wright was signed….
to BUY TIME!
To divert the fans into thinking we WILL spend and WILL make moves which is why all the rats were fleeing the ship and even Jessup was ready to jump off the good ship Moneyball if this deal had not been made.
I think its heading in the right direction. However, I also believe we are guaranteed another losing season in 2013.
Rob (tie-dyed) – “… organization is going down faster than the Titanic.” I didn’t witness that event but it had to be faster than 5 years.
Satish – “..But leading the league in potential doesn’t get you anything.” For Kansas City this is true, but it seems to have worked with Tampa Bay under Joe Maddon. I don’t think it will work with Collins because his staff sucks and he’s inconsistent with personnel (Davis vs. Duda; 1 lefty in the pen for way too long which he compounded by letting Hampson go; etc, etc, etc).
Joe D – “…. I’m not thrilled with our drafts.” I’m almost certain that last year’s draft will be amongst the worst ever for the Mets. What pissed me off even more was SA stressing the importance of building from within.
My own take is that the Alderson administration gets a C+. The trade was good and the restraint with loser Free Agents was commendable. I still await his action to get at least 1 solid outfielder without 4th as part of their analysis. The next draft will be the final verdict with their performance.
“The next draft will be the final verdict with their performance.”
Are you serious? How are you making that decision? Did you look into your crystal ball and tell the future?
The truth is that the book is not closed yet on Omar’s drafts. Thus far he has produced 0 all star appearances but that could change. Ike and Harvey have potential and nobody is certain how Duda, Den Dekker, Kirk, or Murphy will turn out. It will take a couple more years to know for certain on Omar (there is also the international players he signed which could take up to 6 years or more to develop), so Alderson is not on the clock based upon a couple drafts which nobody knows for certain how they will turn out.
I get you.
Becoming the Rays or becoming the Royals…
Regardless, the Rays were horrific for a while before the name change and years of success after.
They had a competely different front office when they were horrific though.
Right direction.
The farm system is improving. Prospects are no longer being rushed or mishandled like they often were under the previous regime. We have three stud prospects (not including Harvey) and are loaded with middle-tier prospects, which is a good sign.
I like the youth on this roster. We have a solid group of players that, once we are able to spend on one or two top-tier free agents (probably after this season, although I nor anyone here knows anything about the Wilpons’ financial situation) will make a very good team. Once Santana comes off the books, Alderson will have tons of spending money because this team is made up of mostly young players with a few arb. years left.
1 – MONEY – I don’t buy the lack of Money excuse AT ALL. Lets face facts here, they saved roughly 8 mil on Bay, Another 8 on Wright and anywhere from 5 – 10 Mil on Dickey (considering his trade saved us only the 5 mil we owed him or the 10 Mil it would have taken to extend him). That leaves 21-26 Mil to spend on what we needed in a Market that was FLUSH with adequate and Roster worthy OF Talent. Name the OFer who will be FA in 2014 which is when most who LIKE the direction think we are going to start spending.
Can only skim through that post after this, first off they save no money on Dickey cause bucks salary was 6 mill, Toronto could not pay his salary. Then add up whoever was Arbitrational eligible and minus their raises. Mets had one major prospect play in 2012 in Harvey. They will have Wheeler and D Arnaud play this year. It sounds like you guys think they playing already. The rotation will cost what 7 million maybe next year, Harvey, neise, wheeler, gee,,,,, they will drop over 40 mill,,,, they will have another good draft under Alderson, they will have a lot of money to spend next year and still be around 100 mill. They will also have more prospects to trade for what they want. So when ok here waiting for Syndergaurd I laugh. Who says he is waiting. And who says free agency is over this year as well. I get Cowgill plays better than a lot of free agents , also here is you 2014 outfielders who are free agents and more.
, Asdrubal Cabrera, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Jesus Flores, Alexi Casilla, Carlos Gomez, Ryan Sweeney, Phil Hughes, Jair Jurrjens, and John Lannan will be under 30 for the ,,, gomez looks like a good fit,,,,Lol, then throw in mikey morse, ellsbury, Corey Hart, choo, granderson, and I think Nelson Cruz, and I think pence.
They can get two of those guys and still gave a lower payroll than this year, or go the trade route. So it is not like there is no one they can sign next year.
They should and possibly add a closer and starter next year to. Josh Johnson, garza, ubaldo, haren, licecum, carpenter, gavin floyd, Lester, are free agents. Next year Mets fill sone of their holes and have the same payroll. With a strong young rotation hopefully. That seems pretty smart to me. And yes I would rather have Gomez or Ellsbury than Upton as much of a injury risk Ellsbury is, still like him better than Bj Upton, signing him this year just assures 15 mill on payroll next year and lessons the likelihood of signing either of them, since they all play center.
Lol
Theywill not drop 40 Mil…
At best 35 MIl….Minus 23 Mil in losses that leaves you 12 Mil to spend next year..(provided they don’t lose even more money this year after losing Dickey’s draw.
The rest of your post is all what ifs and Hopes just as Wheeler and d’Arnaud are….
Bottomline here is neither d’Arnaud and Wheeler (even combined) will make us better than where we were when we started….
And hoping we have a good draft is nice but they have a track record on drafts already and it isn’t very good….
But you keep hoping and wishing….
When you give up doing that come see me in 2020 and tell me how Sandy made all that happens when we finally win possible!
Oh just a quick question, would you rather have Corey hart, or Ross or Hairston, lol
Metsie, your obvious hatred of Alderson is blinding you…
Sorry but Alderson works within a budget given to him from ownership. I understand exactly what has happened this off season. Sandy didn’t know what he had to work with at the start of the offseason. He didn’t know how much he could spend.
Remember, David’s revised 2013 salary wasn’t set until the winter meetings so that extra 8 mill wasn’t there at the start of the off season. Bay’s deferred money is still a mystery and that didn’t happen until after the start of the off season.
A LOT of the Mets issues understandably were put on the back burner due to the Dickey trade. Why sign an outfielder using some of your precious oh so little funds if you might be trading for one later? There was so much unknown at the start of the off season and by the time a lot of answers finally came, players like Cody Ross were being signed for huge money.
Sorry but I wouldn’t touch 90% of the contracts handed out this off season….Because there just isn’t enough money available to afford any mistakes at these prices.
Yeah, the market IS the market and at some point they’ll have no choice but to dive into it, but right now with so little flexibility and so many holes to fill, it would be a pointless waste of resources to spend just to appease fans with little patience and no idea of the situation there in.
It makes so much more sense to wait out another year, get Santana Bay and Fransisco completely off the books, and then dive in once there’s so much more financial assistance available. By then, they’ll know A LOT more about the prospects….who’s legit, who’s ready to help the ML team, and who’s trade bait….
I don’t blame baseball decisions on the Wilpons, but the payroll is completely there doing. If Sandy feels its illogical to spend the millions he had to renegotiate contracts just to get, then damn it its his choice. Think about that….he had to renegotiate Wrights and bays contracts just to get some extra cash to help the team because the big market mets can’t afford a payroll the size of the Giants or Angels or Texas or Dodgers or Phillies. Hey, I’m not crying about the payroll, but to get on a guy for refusing to overpay borderline mediocre players is really unfair.
Yet you applaud him as if he is running this show….
The moves made were not good but because someone tied his hands behind his back…GREAT JOB!
Please….I don’t hate Alderson I just hate thse who try to make a mountain out of a molehill and give credit merely on the basis they think he was held back!
but nobody’s doing that…
You can’t reason with this guy….he’s a f**king angry idiot. Can’t you see that?
I might as well try every once in a while. Its kinda funny reading his incoherent analogies lol
Yepn angry one who happens to be correct!
Better to be an angry idiots than a certified one….
So lets see this plan work…How much time you need? 20 more years?
You got one and a half before the guy you like gets fired!
In the short time I’ve been here I’ve yet to see you be correct about anything.
You said the other day that no team had ever won the WS using the moneyball system. Until I pointed out that the Red Sox hired Bill James and Theo Epstein when the couldn’t pry Beane from the A’s and finally beat the curse of the Bambino by doing it the next year.
You said that no team has ever won the WS being a bottom payroll team and then after it was pointed out to you that quite a few have you changed your statement to say that no team has been dominate for a decade doing it. Nobody said anything about dominance, it was being competitive.
You’ve also said that Alderson’s actions have chased people like you away yet here you are, at the end of December, making more comments than anyone on this site about the Mets. Clearly, you haven’t gone anywhere.
You like to pretend that constantly changing the argument when any single point you make is proven wrong somehow makes you correct. You’re only fooling yourself.
Yes because Bill James is the guy who invented Moneyball not Billy Beane….
Did Boston win wothout getting free agents?
If not then they are not a credible example of what you say is happening here NOR did they play Moneyball….
They spent plenty!
And I have to ask…Which Decade did Boston dominate under this system you love?
Hi Boomer,
Sorry, but the Red Sox and Oakland did not win because of the money ball system.
The Red Sox won with one of the highest payrolls in the league and continued those spending habits past 2008.
Money ball played no part for Oakland’s success in 2002. They still had the best pitching staff in the league and most of their regulars returning who could still score runs. With that dominating combination, the loss of Giambi and Damon would result in only a marginal impact because the team was so stacked. It meant only needing to obtain two “stop gap” players for Oakland was still able to outscore he opponents by 146 runs – more than enough a margin to be a playoff contender – as compared to 239 the year before, which probably resulted in a few more blowouts. They also won over 100 games both those years.
The bottom line is that Billy Beane had put together those great Oakland clubs based on his eye for talent before money ball. That is why the Red Sox went after him.
And even though the Sox hired James in 2003, Grady Little did not go with his philosophy using one’s best reliever at the crucial point of the game instead of the ninth. Little reshuffled roles and the pen blew many a lead so he reverted back to the traditional closer approach and moved Byung-Hyun Kim from starter to closer. The Red Sox did not follow James’ idea of a bullpen with no closer.
So the examples you provided are not ones of the money ball system producing playoff bound teams. Both were great teams but the Red Sox spent and the A’s roster was made up of mostly all key players before they were eligible for free agency. Once they were, the team went down.
Joey D-
Some of you do not understand how Bill James system works. Bull James’ system never said you needed to have the smallest payroll in the major leagues, it said you shouldn’t overpay for past performance or headlines. It is a system that uses statistical analysis to prove which players are worth paying for regardless of the historical statistics that have been used for years.
Big market teams can also use the system and can if fact be more successful by paying for the worth of a player, even when that player is expensive. Boston was one of those teams and they used that system to perfection.
Haveyou ever red anythng Bill James wrote?
Hint he didn’t write Moneyball!
Wasn’t involved at all….
Bill James wrote about OBP and the significance of getting on base over looking at hits and HRs…
He never once sugeested anything regarding Free Agency and spending…..
And he certainly didn’t think not spending was smart…When he advised the Red Sox they jumped to one of the highest payrolls in baseball…
Hi Boomer,
You are forgetting something very important – the team that won the 2004 world series was put together way before Bill James came on the scene – it had been in the playoffs with that same basic squad for a number of years. The one major addition in 2004 was the trade for Curt Schilling.
I know the film “Money Ball” concluded saying the Red Sox adopted Billy Beane’s methodology that led to them winning the world series but I hope you were not using that as the basis for explaining the Red Sox success. That film was more fiction than anything else not only for the reasons I’ve already pointed out as well as Tony LaRussa but because I was also told the same thing by some money ball supporters as well .
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml
And the core players that were on the team that made the playoffs 4 straight years, Beane inherited from Sandy Alderson. Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Eric Chavez, Ben Grieve, Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Ramon Hernandez, even decent major leaguers that went on to play major roles on other championship teams, Scott Brosius and Scott Spiezio.
Billy Beane put together those Oakland teams based on the talent he inherited from Sandy Alderson. Those aforementioned players were accumulated during the 93-98 seasons you people are giving him credit for all those consecutive losing seasons. Yet they write a book about Billy Beane for winning with Aldersons players.
So basically Aldersons players went on a run from 1988-1992 and then again from 2000-2003.
Hi Fonzie,
But accept for one thing. Bill James has even said that saber metrics cannot be applied to evaluating raw talent. The data is not reliable based on the level of competition one faces in high school and college.* It’s the observation of those with an acute knowledge of mechanics and potential that make the evaluations. There is no way that Sandy – who said he was only an observer – could even begin to make such decisions on his own since there are no stats to go by.
True, scouts use a numeric system to rate them but those are grades based on judgement.
* I’ve previously attached Bill James’ explanation of why that is so.
That is no different than any other GM. No GM goes around scouting amature talent. None! Those players were drafted and developed by the staff he put together. Saying that he didn’t make the evaluations and the scouts did is no different from all 30 teams not just Sandy so your reasoning again falls flat on it’s face. It was his philosophy those scouts worked under that put together that farm system. Bill James’ stuff is used to evaluate MLB players and even college players not HS players. Brandon Nimmo, Gavin Cecchini and Micheal Fulmer are HS players drafted based on scouting not stats. It’s amazing that you think other GM’s evaluate amature’s but not Sandy. None of them do. They make decisions based on their scouts. I’m also amazed you don’t get that either.
And this has to be he 100th time I have explained this to you.
Fonzie,
When somebody writes…..
“Billy Beane put together those Oakland teams based on the talent he inherited from Sandy Alderson. Those aforementioned players were accumulated during the 93-98 seasons you people are giving him credit for all those consecutive losing seasons. Yet they write a book about Billy Beane for winning with Aldersons players.”
……. that is giving direct credit to Sandy Alderson for the raw talent. When somebody writes:
“No GM goes around scouting amature talent. None! Those players were drafted and developed by the staff he put together”
…..that is properly giving credit where credit is due – taking the equation of the general manager’s input out of it.
But then that raises the issue of giving Sandy even indirect credit for the draft picks from the very beginning by implying he chose the people working under him. How could one coming in “cold” know how to immediately put a scouting staff together – especially since scouting does not involve sabermetrics? If he was recommended on who to chose, it is then not a reflection on Sandy’s professional baseball knowledge but his reliance on others.
And talking about Sandy Alderson’s baseball knowledge since that time, just a few days ago, in order to show that Sandy not being able venture a guess about what was wrong with Ike Davis didn’t mean he was not astute in the game you said Rusty Staub had no idea what was wrong with Ike Davis either and never voiced an opinion as well. If Rusty couldn’t speak on the subject, how could Sandy be expected to?
So I responded by attaching a MMO post about Rusty discussing that very topic in detail with bloggers. Rusty was telling bloggers the things he saw Ike doing wrong and some suggestions on what he should try and correct. Rusty’s own words were used so it can’t be argued that somebody was implying something that wasn’t true. As far as not knowing what was going on with Ike, he was referring to having no idea WHAT THE METS were doing to help Ike. Those were Rusty’s own words as well.
What does that therefore say about Sandy’s qualifications as a professional baseball person after 40 years in the game? He couldn’t even venture an opinion unlike Rusty Staub, who you implied was unable to do so as well.
It is hard to understand how one could make such an erroneous claim about Rusty saying things he never did and ignoring what he did say that is on public record. At the least making such statements brings in the question of the ability to get information right and more importantly raises the issue of intentionally trying to manipulate and mislead others. I’m saying that as one who has been accused of doing just that.
You really are clueless when it comes to the amature draft yet you try and pass yourself off as someone with vast knowledge of how the process works. You need to do some research before you act as an authority. The fact that you thought other GM’s make the evaluations of amature talent is telling.
I never said Sandy or any GM evaluates the raw talent. Scouts do yet the GM gets the credit with all teams for putting together the staff and the guidelines they draft and develope under. Something you have no clue of.
Omar Minaya gets credit for a farm system the produced Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Bobby Parnell, Matt Harvey yet he did not scout one of those players. Mike Brown scouted Ike Davis, Marlin McPhail scouted, Matt Harvey, Bobby Parnell, Reese Havens, Cory Mazzoni. Jon Niese was scouted by Erwin Bryant. Lucas Duda was scouted by Steve Leavitt, Murphy, Thole and Gee were scouted by Ray Corbett. Out of those scouts named Minaya only hired Ray Corbett. The others were inherited from Steve Phillips.
Steve Phillip farm system produced both Wright and Reyes yet Steve Phillips did not make the evaluations so as usual your theory that Alderson does not get credit for those players falls flat on its face. His farm system under his guidelines produced those players. Gary Larocque scouted Wright and both Eddy Toledo and Juan Mercado scouted Reyes. Phillips did not scout those players but he gets credit for them being produced under his tenure.
Another thing, No one said he totally revamped the scouting staff when he became the GM in Oakland. He didn’t start hiring his own scouts until 1985 staring with Bill Gayton and please show a link that Sandy describes himself as coming in cold. You re the only one I ever heard use the term cold. He was with the front office for 2 years before he became GMhe didn’t walk off the streets like you claim he was there for 2 years.
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
The above link shows just how wrong you are and everything you claim is utter conjecture and speculation due to your ridiculous agenda. Professional scouts describing Sandy as a very knowledgable baseball person but we’re supposed to believe some guy from the Bronx right? You can try and spin it any way you want and write 900 words worth of more conjecture and speculation but the men that worked for him tell the actual facts. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Now back to Rusty. I just went back to that thread and read the article. I will do something that you don’t have the guts to do and say I was wrong. I thought when Rusty said he didn’t have any idea what they were going to do with Ike that he said that he didn’t know what was wrong with Ike. He did mention bringing his hands down and needing to quiet his hands and slow it down. That still does not mean that because Alderson didn’t offer an opinion of Ike’s struggles that he doesn’t have knowledge of the game. That’s ridiculous. He’s far more knowledgable than you could ever dream of. I also noticed you didn’t have anything to say about being wrong about Ike taking first pitch strikes when the numbers indicated that your eyes were wrong. That’s why stats are indeed needed because your eyes saw one thing and the numbers showed another.
“It is hard to understand how one could make such an erroneous claim about Rusty saying things he never did and ignoring what he did say that is on public record. At the least making such statements brings in the question of the ability to get information right and more importantly raises the issue of intentionally trying to manipulate and mislead others. I’m saying that as one who has been accused of doing just that.”
” intentionally trying to manipulate and mislead others. I’m saying that as one who has been accused of doing just that.”
Was it unintentional when you claimed Bill Rigney was the man responsible for Oaklands championship teams and not Sandy Alderson? Sandy said Rigney was involved in every decision so that means he was the man responsible for it all? Even though the one link you showed was about the 1982 A’s predating Aldersons tenure.
Was it unintentional everytime an article or something else mentions Aldersons Oakland years as to what he did to put those teams together and you keep calling it a myth? Is that unintentionally manipulating facts or is that intentional. I’m gonna go with intentional since you must’ve written a few hundred repetitive posts claiming such inaccuracies.
Was it unintentional when you constantly say many people contend that Sandy was not the one responsible for Oakland when in all reality it’s just 2 people with the same agenda?
That’s manipulation of facts which I believe is intentional. You never once proved it yet you get mad when called a liar. Even though I proved it countless times you danced around the facts because you were too stubborn and full of your agenda to admit you were wrong. That’s pretty much why you’re called pathetic. I could see it if you were like 15-16 years old but a guy your age that acts this way is pretty amazing.
Fonzie,
When there are many who disagree with somebody but only one going to such extremes to constantly accuse that person of lying, making up stories, citing non-existent links, etc. it is usually reflective of the character of the accuser and not the other way around. The point about Rusty Staub has little to do with the debate about Sandy Alderson as it is an example of the intentional manipulation you accuse me of doing. It was quite clear what Rusty was saying and above mis-interpretation to be accidentally taken out of context.
On the other hand, my opinion about Bill Rigney’s role in Oakland is based on research and I include links to that documentation in full to provide that same information so others can read and then formulate their own conclusions pro or con. Is that what you call intentional misleading?
Your insults, your crude behavior and lack of plain common decency aimed at me caused the owner to single you out as one having to rise up from the sewer. What you just wrote now is another reason as to why that had to be said.
‘On the other hand, my opinion about Bill Rigney’s role in Oakland is based on research and I include links to that documentation in full to provide that same information so others can read and then formulate their own conclusions pro or con. Is that what you call intentional misleading’
Based on research? Lmao! There is no research regarding Rigney they way you described his role. You provided a link from 1982 1 year before Sandy was hired that showed Eisenhardt put him in charge on an interim basis until 1983 when the job was given to Sandy. There is no research, there is no link it’s all manipulation on your part and obviously it’s intentional because you actually believe the BS you come up with. Research as I provided shows he was the teams consultant and advisor. A special assistant. Also was in the broadcast booth as color commentator and you believe he was calling the shots as Sandy who was duh!!! the GM and VP of baseball ops was writing up contracts. LMAO. You couldn’t be more hilarious if you tried.
“Your insults, your crude behavior and lack of plain common decency aimed at me caused the owner to single you out as one having to rise up from the sewer. What you just wrote now is another reason as to why that had to be said.”
It’s not an insult to call someone a liar who is in fact lying. Joe singled me out because I was throwing F-Bombs in my rant not for calling you a liar. There’s a difference. Notice I’m not using any F-Bombs and I’m not being singled out now. I also noticed how you fail to respond to the link up above that disproves your claims. I guess it takes time to come up with another story.
In the 1 year plus I’ve been commenting here and the few years before that when I was just a visitor he hasn’t been right about anything either.
it’s no use man. he’ll never get it. nor will many others here, sadly. they won’t get it till the Mets own the rest of the decade. then they’ll look back and say “damn, they actually did it the right way. I feel dumb.”
Yeah Alderson is the best Met GM since Cashen yet he is blinded and cant see it. He misses the days of reckless spending and asinine decisions that affect the organization for years to come. People like him belong on the Yankee board although they arent spending either (out bid by Seattle on Ibanez).
Is he better than Cashen because if memory serves correctly (and it does) Cashen was a one and done aftyer his 5 year rebuild timeline….
He didn’t dominate the rest of the decade either….
So Sandy would have to be the best GM ever or at least second to Cashman for what you think is going to happen to happen.
“they won’t get it till the Mets own the rest of the decade”
Yeah thats what you said when 2013 was the year that was going to start…Then thecan Kicked to 2014, and soon the can will get Kicked again to 2015 and 2016, 2017, 2018 and then if they actually do win in 2019 they will DOMINATE the rest of the decade which will end a year later….LOL
Yep the wait and see’ers have been saying this for three years now….
TICK TOCK….
It’s you who don’t get it that NO SPENDERS have never won a WS or dominated a decade! NEVER!
All the tems you cite as example all spent money to win them!
rays.
Marlins in 2003.
Reds in 1985.
Twins in 1987.
But you just keep going on being positive about everything you think you know.
Cards in 85?
Ok which of those teams dominated a decade again?
I also find it so amusing that you guys had to go back to the 80′s when Free Agency was still pretty much in it’s first decade of infancy to find examples….
Some corrections though….
Marlins in 2003. They won not because they were so good (they sucked the year after) but because the Braves declined, The Phillies weren’t ready and the Mets were not competitive…WHo else was left to beat to make the playoffs? Did they dominate for a decade as you guys suggest is what will happen following thier plan? NOPE!
Reds in 1985. Reds didn’t even make the playoffs in 85 but you keep on being positive about what you know….
Twins in 1987 Yep they were a mighty force for the decade weren’t they?
Cards in 85 yeah it was those homegrowns of 85 that helped them lose the WS and they were just so dominant after the year they DID win the WS (82) that they never won another….
Rays lets assume you 2008 despite the fact they lost the WS….(Great Example there Stupid)
So all your examples are from the mid to late 80′s before teams started buying the players to dominate, You know like the Braves who got Maddox and the Phillies who got and bought Lee…
Or those damn Yankees whose spending should have hurt the franchise long term yet 20 years later they have 18 Playoff appearances and more World series wins than all your HOMEGROWN examples combined have….
Keep dreaming there folks….
When you wake up I’ll still be here and I will be sure to remind you who predicted what would happen when this plan is done!
The Yankees are a prime example of building through the minors. A bit of history for you. George tried your philosophy of spend throughout the 80s and his teams were basically a joke. Do you remember how low the Yankees were regarded? How about the infamous Mr May? Do you recall the miraculous signing of Steve Kemp? Dave Collins? George was going to buy a championship by spending. What did he get for his efforts? Nothing. Zip. Nada. A losing organization. And what happened?
Gene Michael took over (when George got himself in hot water) and protected the farm. He added guys to the system that you might have heard of: Jeter, Posada, Rivera. Petite. Perhaps you recall them because they were instrumental in a few of the WS runs that organization had. Also, did you ever hear of Sterling Hitchcock. Roberto Kelly. Homer Bush. Russ Davis. Eric Milton. Christian Guzman? These were all guys who were in the Yankees farm system who were traded to acquire the likes of Clemens, Knoblauch, Tino, Paul Oneill. Perhaps you heard of them.
Those are the facts. The great Yankees, the epitome of spending over 2 decades, were built THROUGH THE FARM SYSTEM first (I forget to add in another homegrown player: Bernie Williams) and then through trades of minor league talent with FAs being used to fill in holes.
That is how winners are built. Teams that use the spend stupid money to buy success end up losers just like George did.
But I do feel for you trying to defend an indefensible non-working position.
and now a bit of history for you….
1995 the year they started this run….
Joe Girardi
Mariano Duncan
Wade Boggs
Paul O’Neil
Tim Raines
Darryl Strawberry
Kenny Rodgers
Dwight Gooden
Jimmy Key
David Cone
How many of those were homegrown Yankees?
Yes you go right on believeing it was Jeter, Pettite, Williams, Posada (who really didn’t play much in 95) and Rivera that made them winners, not the 10 Free Agents and former stars that started it all….
And was mantained by those same homegrown guys and not names like
David Wells
Roger Clemons
Randy Johnson
Denny Neagle
Orlando Hernandez
CC Sabathia
Mark Texiera
Alex Rodriguez
Johnny Damon
Hidecki Matsui
Yep those guys had nothing to do with it it was just those homegrowns that won it….
Thats the REASONABLE view of things right?
actually it was 1994 ….before Pettite, Rivera and Jeter….
Well 94 was strike shortened wasn’t it? 95 they made the playoffs with Jeter and the CORE playing marginal backup roles (fernandez was their starting SS, Stanley thier Catcher and Wetteland thier closer.
It wasnt until 96 they won the WS…Williams and Jeter were starters Wetteland still thier Closer. Posada played all of 8 games for them.
But those Eight games were the difference! LOL
yeah but the baseball knew the yanks had arrived. 2nd best record in baseball, that season was the jumpoff for them
My bad. I meant Royals.
Cards were 1990.
Everyone by now knows my opinion and the reasons for it.
But I also recall two years ago when so many Met fans were lauding Sandy Alderson for fixing the pitching problems while spending so little. I also remember being told about Sandy having the inside track on players based on factors overlooked by other general managers. Most of all, we were told about the new brand of ball Sandy was going to instill into the organization, different strategies, different emphasis on skills, etc.
I also remember 2011 being the transition year but that is another story.
All those accolades for the moves he made prior to 2011 and the new brand of baseball based on saber studies. What were the results?
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/16614/mets-brand-moneyball-not-so-successful
Bottom line is, had Sandy’s changes yielded just modest positive results then there would be reason for me to have more confidence in the direction we were heading – despite my viewpoints on saber stats. A team can give positive signs for the future despite yielding a poor won-loss record and Sandy incorporating his way of thinking in the style of which the Mets played gave no such glimpses. Even when the team was playing .575 ball for more than half a season it was despite what Sandy was doing, not because of it.
You still think the Mets used “moneyball” to build this team?
Dude It would make more sense if mets did not spend the most money in the N.L from 06 till when Alderson took over and lose. It would make more sense if the teams who won the World Series over that several years did not use the same type of strategy. It would make more sense if Oakland did not beat out Texas and Anaheim last year after trading away pitchers.
Teams win with the Mets payroll, they drop a lot more next year, and Alderson is building a team that will win for a long time because he is gonna end up beating the market on pitching, and have the turnover in the farm to win for years. Something they did not have while spending all that money before.
Also I was for a slight rebuild in 2009 when we should have traded Reyes because you can see these slumps coming, once the farm goes and you have to many bad contracts your screwed. I find this exciting because it is the proper way to build and should have started years ago this way it would not be as bad. Fans are also known to like and appreciate homegrown players more.
And I would not give up on this year yet either, I do not know what the finished product is, but even with the lose of Dickey I feel the mets can make a run at a second wild card if things fall right for them.Unless you guys had Oakland winning last years division it is tough to say no way.
Lose? We were a playoff contending team for three years straight?
How many Playoffs have we contended for since we stopped spending?
How many will we play for once your done “BEING LIKE CASHEN”? One? Two?
The problem with your whole argument is that you seem to think 2006-2008 was worse than what we have seen and will see the three years Alderson has been here….
This team was MUCH further away when Omar took over and he did in a Year what Sandy hasnt done and wont do in three!
SO please stop trying to sell your point as being rational when the truth is it is based on the irrational thought that the Omar teams were bigger losers than the team we have now….
Cause only the injury plagued 2009 season had fewer wins!
and that was due to injuries which can happen to kids as quickly as they happen to Free Agents…You know Kids like d’Arnaud, Ike Davis, Reuben Tejada, Daniel Murphy and in the case of the Giants Buster Posey!
But wait Metsie, which one is it? does there have to be a world series championship, or is it just good enough to “contend for the playoffs”? because you’re constantly changing your position on that to fit your argument.
remember when you said that what Beane did in Oakland in the early 2000′s means nothing because they never won a world series? they were “playoff contenders”, Metsie.
remember when just the other day you were saying that what Cashen did was unsuccessful because it was a “one and done” with only one world series victory. Meanwhile they won 90+ games six out of seven years starting in 1984, winning the division twice with 100+ wins, and were “playoff contenders” for a better part of the decade. we haven’t had a “playoff contending” run like that since, Metsie.
So which is it, Metsie? you’re pathetic man.
How about either or?
Which one has Sandy accomplished here?
How long before he does?
“Fans are also known to like and appreciate homegrown players more.”
1 – The 2006 Mets were mostly free-agents and traded players…
2 – RA Dickey = not homegrown
3 – Keith Hernandez = not homegrown
4 – Gary Carter = not homegrown
5 – Mike Piazza = not homegrown
Fans are also known to like and appreciate winners more
“The 2006 Mets were mostly free-agents and traded players…”
Precisely the reason they crashed and burned in ’07 and ’08 and haven’t been good since.
The Mets from 2005-2008 had 4 of the top 6 years in all-time attendance…
There is a reason why met fans have a spot in their heart for guys like endy chavez + RA Dickey….
yes, the spot would’ve been a lil deeper if they were home-grown mets, i totally get it…but at the end of the day…NY is a results oriented town…
CB,
That’s just nonsense trying to twist circumstance to mesh with your belief in homegrowns. Those teams lost for multitude of reasons, not mere singular.
Furthermore, the Mets of the past few seasons are heavily homegrown and stink.
Do not waste your time.The mets are utterly boring and are. headed no where fast.I beg of you not to be taken by the rhectoric we hear from the mets brass.
Hi Edwin,
And if not that, then at least take the financial situation the Mets are in much more seriously instead of downplaying it, as I previously suggested.
Ive seen worse teams on paper than the 2013 Mets do well & even win world series’.
IE: The 2010-2012 Giants, and the Rays since 2008. Neither one of those teams can hit their way out of a paper bag, but have been consistently contending because of their pitching.
The 2013 Mets will have a good starting rotation, IF they stay healthy. And, a better offensive line-up than either one of those teams. Remember that we were shockingly good in the first half of 2012 until Gee went down. Santana, Harvey, Niese, Gee, & Hefner is not a bad SR.
Of course it would have been better with Dickey & I hated to see him go, but if D’Arnoud pans out to be the next Pudge Rdgz. we will be better off than 90% of MLB teams who have horrible catchers. After all a 5-tool catcher is absolutely the hardest asset to find in baseball, just ABOVE a starting rotation ACE.
I Loved Dickey, and I wouldnt have pulled the plug on that trade but its done so we can only hope those prospects pan out.
Obviously we have holes, but my point is that plenty of franchises over the years have been successful with similar holes.
I think we should re-sign Rauch and pull off a trade w/an american league team, Duda for a MLB ready right fielder.
With all due respect, Joe, the current team has no speed, no power, no starting outfielders, no pen, no leadoff hitter, has 230 inning RA Dickey deficit and plays in the media-scrutiny capital of the world alongside the most winning franchise in the world. This is recipe for failure.
Ive seen worse teams on paper than the 2013 Mets do well & even win world series’.
IE: The 2010-2012 Giants, and the Rays since 2008. Neither one of those teams can hit their way out of a paper bag, but have been consistently contending because of their pitching.
LMAO
You are kidding right ?
The Giants and Rays had better hitters, played better defense, had better defensive catchers, had better base-running fundamentals, had better coaching and top-bottom are well run organizations
The game is more than just hitting and pitching
This front office should be held feet to fire, Sandy Alderson has proven himself dishonest over and over and some Mets fans give him a pass on the basis of a few prospects over the course of 2.5 offseasons. Ridiculous. For these three prospects who have not even seen or thrown one big league pitch, we’ve lost a 28-year old batting champ, a proven 30 homer, 90-100 RBI right fielder, and the reigning Cy Young award winner.
We lose these players and here we have some Mets fans being brainwashed into believing that throwing away season after season is OK. Well let me say loud and clear, no it’s NOT! Stop being so gullible. This team continues to be poorly run from the Wilpons, to Alderson, downward. There’s barely a position player in this entire organization with 5-tool star potential. Neither are there any 5-tool players at the major league level.
There’s total lack of balance and people nod and grin while Alderson dismantles this franchise of it’s proven talent in search of pipe dreams. Prospects fail all the time and the naivety of the fan base who settle for being thrown a bone – a prospect – every now and again, and trust the liar in Alderson to actually sign some free agents in 2014. I do not find Sandy Alderson credible or trustworthy.
This is the first time the Mets undergo a true rebuilding since the early 1980s, folks.
And as the early 1980s proved, it doesn´t happen overnight.
Alderson is barely 2 years into his job. And a rebuilding generally takes 4-5 years unless you can wildly throw money around – which the Mets obviously haven´t been able and willing to do.
Yes, the major league roster has been dismantled with the lone exceptions of Wright, Niese and Ike Davis among more notable players. However, this team wasn´t the 1927 Yankees or even 1996 Yankees. It was a team that had failed to reach the playoffs for 4 straight seasons, finishing the final two seasons prior to Alderson´s arrival below .500 with a generally aging, injury-prone and overpaid core group of players and a farm system lacking depth & upside at the upper levels, having graduated Niese, Davis, Gee, Tejada and Parnell but little else recently.
Matt Harvey, Jenry Mejia, Jeurys Familia, Kirk Nieuwenhuis and Wilmer Flores essentially were the only significant prospects left when Alderson & Co. took over – certainly not enough to add major help from within or have the pieces for major trades. Keep in mind that when Alderson took over, Harvey had yet to throw his first pitch, Flores & Familia were in A-ball and Mejia had been shut down with arm issues – possibly a prelude to his Tommy John surgery in spring 2011. So, unless you´d have been able to spend aggressively by adding to a payroll already inherited in the 130+ million $ range with several open roster spots and try to buy more instant success, there was no other option available. Unfortunately.
In barely two years, Alderson has procured a bunch of highly promising prospects in trades, the draft and international free agent signings:
D´Arnaud – Wheeler – Syndergaard – Nimmo – Cecchini – Fulmer – Montero – Mateo – Mazzoni – Plawecki – Reynolds – A.G.Rosario – Baccera – Verrett – P.Evans – Pill – Leathersich – Koch – Nido – Flexen – Taylor – Sewald – Ad.Rosario and others. Obviously, most of them won´t reach the majors in short time but will take 3-5 years to develop properly. Which is better than rushing prospects – sometimes with damaging effects (Pelfrey, Kunz, Mejia, F.Martinez, Gomez and friends say hi). Which is co-inciding with Minaya & Co. having had a pretty good 2010 draft and procuring International free agents such as Tapia, Tovar, Ad.Rodriguez, Robles, Ynoa or Lupo among others who also have helped turn this system around from thin to very deep. So, while Alderson & Co. have done a good job bringing in young talent, Minaya & Co. certainly get an assist.
Sadly Dr Dooby not too many people understand this.
Your hope springs eternal good doctor. The problem is that prospects are a crapshoot, but I guess that’s ok. We’ll keep on hoping. meanwhile, the main results that matter the most is how the MLB team continues to be uprooted and is eroding before our eyes. I would buy the true rebuilding if Wright was traded for more crapshoot hope for the best prospects. I would buy hope if money was actually being reinvested into the team instead of covering personal losses of the Wilpons. I would even buy hope for the future if I thought our young talent or ability to build a winner matched that of the presently assembled teams in even our own division.
P.S. We’re better than the Marlins. Yay. But even the Marlins have better recent success than we do. And as much we like our young talent, they do as well. We hope for the best. So there’s that.
It is a half-assed rebuild.
You cant sit Kirk and Jordany, have Duda play out of position all year long, not get a veteran catcher to help out with Thole and the young pitchers, not keep Izzy to keep mentoring the young pitchers, keep the same wack coaching staff, and sit there with a straight face and say you are rebuilding.
sorry bub, thats not rebuilding, thats lowering payroll.
“And as the early 1980s proved, it doesn´t happen overnight. ”
Well something we DO agree on!
Now where we disagree….
You think it took 5 years….
But it actually took 9 and started in 77 with all those trades like the kind Sandy made that sent away Seaver, Koosman and anyone else worth a damn that made the team worst in the league.
Those trades got you the worst team in baseball that netted you 7 top 10 overall draft picks of which 7 were Top 5 Overall, Two Top overall….
Those picks got you Brooks, Strawberry and Gooden, Brooks being the centerpiece of the Carter Trade
As good as Cashen seems to be in the memory of fans he had 12 1st rounder broken down to:
Two(2) Top Overall Picks – Abner and Strawberry
Five (5) top 5 Overall – The two above and Gooden(5th Overall), Eddie Williams (4th overall), and Terry Blocker (4th Overall),
Seven Post Top 5 Picks which netted only Beane, Schiraldi and Winningham as players who had any affect on the 86er rebuild.
The problem the Sand People have here when they mention Cashen and 86 is they believe that Sandy is operating under the same plan as Cashen….
Truth is he is operating under the same plan as Grant from 77-79.
Thats what the last two years has been and what Grant managed to do in two years Sandy needed three. That puts us a year behind schedule with 5-6 more years to go before you can get where the 86ers were.
And that means at least 4 more years of losing MUST HAPPEN to do what Cashen did and follow his plan….
2017 or 2018 is the earliest this plan can succeed and only if we are the worst team in baseball for 3 out of the next 4 years and get the 5 top 5 Picks Cashen had to work with.
Breaking news, last year Atlanta and Washington had the lowest payrolls in the NL East and dominated the division.
Breaking News, the Nats were not scared off by Scott Boras in signing Harper and Strasburg to the 2 highest bonus’s of all time.
the mets wouldnt draft a 16 year old, with a bad reputation for being surly, and give him more money than anyone else in the history of MLB drafts
More Breaking ews….
We were only a game behind the Nats two weeks before Sandy punted on the season and decided not to improve it….
And lets face facts here…
Dominating a Division that had the Phillies Marlins and us in it is hardly hard to do….
Breaking news, last year Atlanta and Washington had the lowest payrolls in the NL East and dominated the division. The bad thing here is that hey built their teams properly and should be good for years to come. According to Metsie, these teams are not to smart, they did basically what Alderson is attempting to do. This is the road there, you have to take a road there, and it is a rough road.
And by Naming Werth and Laroche you do not have an argument, cause I will name, strasburg, Zimmerman, gio obtained by trade using prospects while building, Ryan Zimmerman, Desmond, Espinoza, Ramos obtained by using prospects again, span this year using prospects yet again, morse again by trade. Yes they spent a lot on werth, and he has not even come close to earning his money by the way, and their payroll still is lower than the mets last year!
Hi Peter,
What you didn’t say about Washington and Atlanta is they complimented their fine farm systems with key free agent signings and trades. Those were the three components that made them successful. So far, Sandy has focused on only one of those three.
And while we can all have hope, we cannot speak in terms of these prospects all making in the majors. It also takes time for them to get established so success doesn’t come over night. That is why I brought up the financial realities of 2016 and beyond. Will these kids get themselves going right at the time the Mets again begin discarding their higher prices stars?
Maybe Dillon Gee and Johan Santana ” punting” the season with injuries had more to do with the 2nd half collapse.
Or do you think packaging Wheeler and Flores for Greinke would have helped ?
I see the repy system is a bit too complicate for you and Peter to navigate which makes sense given your posts in defense of the Sandy….
No what would have been better was going after the Power RH bat we needed in trades (and yes even if it meant Wheeler in there and NOT Vascilating on bringing Harvey up who broke the loosing streak that made you Sandy and all those who love him surrender in July!
Sorry, no reply function with iPhones.
That said, who were the three top 50 overall in Baseball prospects to go with a deep farm system, Niese, Harvey and Wright back in 1979, i.e. the stage of development you apparently see the Mets in right now ???
And again, how would you have turned the 2011 or 2012 team into a legit shortterm contender on a 140 million budget ( with 10 million available prior to 2011) or on a 100 million $ budget in 2012 ?
Trade Wheeler, Niese and Flores for Justin Upton ? And then ? Who enters the shortterm rotation ? Familia and Tapia for Ryan Dempster ? And how to upgrade the mediocre bullpen ? Hmm, Adrian Rosario and Jack Leathersich for KRod ? Who gives the 10 million not in the budget ? Ah, Jason Bay, Rafael Montero, Kirk Nieuewenhuis and Jenry Mejia for Chone Figgins ( and saving 10 million $ in both 2012 and 2013 in the process !) ?
Oh Jeez now I get you…Your into Cult Figures and bought a crapintosh phone too!
First off there was no Baseball America list in 79….
Second Who are you top 5 overall picks NOW?
Because without those two Gooden and Strawberry picks none of what Cashen did works!
So who represents them on this squad that you think is going to let Sandy duplicate the 5 year Cashen timeline and since we won’t have one this year, what year will 5 years from NEXT year be when the 5 year Plan timeline comes to fruition?
Answer 2018….
Not 2014
Not 2015
Not 2016
Not 2017
MAYBE 2018 that is if they don’t pass over the BEST player to take a guy who looks good in a spreadsheet like the did with Hawkins to get cechinni (or however you spell a name that will never make it to an MLB UNI….
You want to make parralels to Cashen then FIRST identify the Gooden and Strawberry Sandy has got us THEN you can start showing how trades he made got all the rest….
Your main issue is Cashen did not trade PLAYERS for KIDS…Only Darling fits that description….
All the other trades were for MLB READY TALENT…
NOW not LATER!
Which is why Sandy isn’t going to win a thing in 5 years,,..There is never a now just more Wait till later and hope for the best.
What direction?
Signing Wright for 150 million was a mistake. I like David but if you can pick up 3 or 4 players and pay alot less why not. You need outfielders and relief help. Not signing Hairston makes no sense. The GM has nothing up his sleeve because their isnt anything to have. I believe Alderson is a money guy and for the problems they have the Mets need him.
2013 will another long year.
What kind of question is that. The wilpons rip us off to gain money for their mistakes and we have to pay with second rate players , so that thet can make money while our team suffers, yes us fans suffers cause of the stuipd wilpons. I just don’t get it. What kind of owners are they and why let them pocket the money, why do they want us not to win each year. The wilpons take advantage of us. Why can’t they just sell our team so that finally we can become winners, not one sesaon, not too, but for years to come, Let’s face it they suck. Maybe us mets fans will wake up and not show up for the first ten games and see how the wilpons like that, make them lose money, maybe they will get the drift, and them say finally larman was right we need to sell.
“This was a team that needed an immediate infusion of high level, near MLB ready talent, talent which we left on the table in the form of Jose Fernandez in 2011 and Courtney Hawkins in 2012. ”
Joe, this statement doesn’t pan out. Neither Fernandez nor Hawkins played above A ball in their respective organizations. They may both accelerate through their systems, but neither will debut before the middle of next year.
What you described are guys like Mike Pelfrey (at least that was how he was sold and treated) and Eddie Kunz. Guys we could just plug in to our immediate needs. That is not how you build a team from the ground up. You don’t use the draft to plug holes.
” But it would be nice to see the new front office supplement that direction with some draft picks that would hit the ground running rather than projects that were 4-5 years away at minimum with a higher risk for failure than for success.”
All draft picks run that risk. That is why you stock up on them. Of course, when do fail, they don’t cripple your team the way a Mo Vaughn or Jason Bay can.
All draft picks run that risk. That is why you stock up on them. Of course, when do fail, they don’t cripple your team the way a Mo Vaughn or Jason Bay can”
I think the royals and the pirates disagree with you…
The Royals and Pirates never did the follow up. Building top notch farm systems didn’t kill them (and until recently, I’m not sure the Pirates did build a top notch farm system), their failure to build from there did.
No one here is adverse to a top payroll in baseball. But deep pockets should be an asset, not a crutch.
Hi Donal,
Exactly. While one does not have to go on wild spending sprees like we did in the past one does need to go outside the organization to supplement those from within.
If that was part of the re-building plan, those moves can start next season as Santana’s contract is no longer on the books and the team can at least learn to grow together. The problem, as I’ve mentioned, is that payroll expenses go up to virtually the 2013 level (as it is currently) in 2016 and one is not going to get experienced and quality free agent to sign for a contract beginning in 2014 that is only going to last two or three seasons in length – unless one wants to sign older players like Carlos Beltran. In that case, we can maybe have a shot at something for maybe a two-year period.
I was just watching the MLB channel and saw the cubs offered takahashi a minor league contract while I just read on line now that we are looking for bullpen help, he pitched well for us when he was here HE’S LEFT HANDED which we were dying for last year and now it seems HE’S CHEAP just up our alley OR have we gotten so poor that we can’t compete for minor league offers now, WHY DON’T THEY JUST SELL THE TEAM….PLEASE!!
Perhaps the Mets scouts saw something in his terrible 2012 performance that had them shy away? Why does it always have to be about the Wilpon’s?
Takahashi declined severely last year, throwing only 50 innings and being waived by the Angels. He’s not the 2010 Takahashi.
Was he worth a minor league deal? Sure why not? But freaking out over it… I will not do
The point I’m making is that we were desperate for a lefty out of the pen last year and they say that they are looking again for help and yes he didn’t have great numbers but compared to what we had they don’t look all that bad considering it was the AL-18 Takahashi, H LAA 0 3 4.93 42 0 0 1 42.0 39 24 23 6 10 41 .242 1.17, he had less than a hit per inning and had a 4-1 strikeout to walk ratio and a whip of 1.17 compare that to the guys we were running out there, and the reason I blame the wilpons is THEY ARE THE OWNERS! and last year when a relief pitcher or 2 could have made a big difference we did nothing and will probably go cheap again hope this was too hysterical for you but I’m tired of this garbage but I guess you aren’t
You sidestepping the issue….
It isn’t about how bad Takahashi is it’s about how bad is the guy we will get instead because we didn’t want to pay that much….
Easy to say that guy is not good but there is no reason to say it if the guy you DO sign isn’t going to be any better!
And since we need more than one we stand a good chance of signing someone worse for the same amount of money…and it increases the longer we wait to sign ANYONE!
The thing about Takahashi was that he had continued his good pitching into 2011 and despite a few shaky early outings in 2012 he began picking up the slack before that nosedive toward the latter half.
Sandy was willing to re-sign him for just a one year deal and Takahashi wanted two. Two year deals for relievers his age are not unusual – I think Sandy agreed to two of those himself – one being the less expensive and already on the downhill slide Carasco and the other being the more expensive Francisco. That in itself raises a lot of questions about judgement, money and creating a reverse public perception about being willing to spend that money (Francisco).
I think Sandy put himself in a bad position when finally being honest about not being able to win by signing the inexpensive players that he did. It questions what his priorities were for if he suspected he could not win with those type of signings, why sign them to begin with?
And it only makes one not trust the reasons behind the other moves he has been making since. I know it has been argued by many that Sandy could not publicly come out and admit the Mets financial problems caused him to put together a roster as cheaply as possible but if he couldn’t be honest with us then, can we trust him to be honest with us now as the Mets still face many financial hurdles in the years to come and with decreased revenue, even more severe ones at that.
Didn’t we basically sign the younger version in Laffey?
LMAO…I dont recall Laffey ever being a good pitcher ERA always way above 4.00 WHIP around 1.40 lol….minor league deal isnt gonna kill anyone but Takahashi is better and yes much older..
No Fonzie,
You weren’t singled out for using the “F” word – most everyone here uses it. You were singled out for your behavior aimed at me since you somehow refrain from acting in the same manner with the many others who share similar opinions.
There is a bigger issue at hand – that one has an innate need to stoop down to the level of the sewer specifically aimed at one individual who disagrees with him over something so inconsequential like the Mets – and specifically Sandy Alderson’s credentials and Bill Rigney’s importance in Oakland. Such obsession is not representative of a simple passionate debate but is reflective of an individual’s deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior intended to humiliate others.
There are others on MMO who act that way as well and Joe D. has been addressing that growing trend and asking for it to stop but each of us can only be responsible for one’s own self.
No Joe you’re wrong. It was because I continued to use it over and over in the same post because I got fed up with you turning every thread into the Bill Rigney show that had no rellevance to the Mets whatsoever. You weren’t stating Rigney’s importance to Oakland, you were claiming that he was the one who put the Oakland team together and claiming it as fact and constantly saying it over and over on many different threads even causing others to say “Who the F*** is Bill Rigney” and why do you keep bringing his name up. I couldn’t give a flying rats ass about your opinion of him or anybody else’s but when stories are made up like yours was to fit an agenda then I’m going to call you out on it. There are many others who don’t like the GM but they don’t stoop so low as to make up stories and then constantly repeat it for nearly a whole year. If you don’t like being called a liar then I suggest you stop lying.
Fonzie,
One who is caught doing exactly what he or she so vehemently accuses another of doing is only talking about his or her own self and eventually gets exposed by one’s own actions.
There is absolutely no way for one to have misunderstood what Rusty Staub was saying about Ike Davis – absolutely none. It is not a simple case of having been wrong when one remembered enough of what Staub said to blatantly twist his words around.
Nothing so important in life for one to have such need to stoop to such a level of behavior debating a point – nor would it be so devastating to me personally if eventually proven wrong without a reasonable doubt on something so insignificant as Sandy Alderson and Bill Rigney. On that subject I will only say that perhaps our disagreement comes from me believing one cannot learn the insides of the professional aspects of the game when his only resources are derived from a computer as you do.
If you believe I am lying about Sandy not knowing anything about the game he is the one who said: “When I got into baseball back in 1981, I had no experience what so ever in the game.”
Attached is the complete interview. I am not going to take the time to find the interview in which he used the word “cold” but by saying he had no experience in it whatsoever is saying the same exact thing.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/785089-talking-with-sandy-alderson-once-a-marine-now-gm-of-the-mets
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/785089-talking-with-sandy-alderson-once-a-marine-now-gm-of-the-mets