18
2012
Alderson’s Amazin Plan: A Long And Winding Road
An article by Tie Dyed
2012 saw Miguel Cabrera become the first Triple Crown winner in 45 years. I wonder if Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski has considered trading Cabrera. Surely after putting up numbers like that he could definitely get some good prospects.
We had a pitcher once who seemed to be slipping. He was approaching 33, his best years behind him. Over his last two seasons, his ERA rose 26%, his strikeouts decreased by about 8%, his wins dropped by nearly one–third and he was allowing more home runs. He was sent away for a slick fielding second baseman, a young slugger with a good eye, a lanky righthander who posted a 2.74 ERA the previous year, and a ‘cant-miss’ outfielder with great bad speed.
Just wondering… How many of you who were there, now think trading Tom Seaver for Doug Flynn, Steve Henderson, Pat Zachary and Dan Norman worked out well for us?
I’ve been a Mets fan for 40 years now and thanks to our GM, I apparently don’t understand the game. I always thought that when you have a good player you keep him. You use that player and try to build a winner. Apparently, I’m incorrect. I now see that when you have a good player, you trade him and gamble on young unproven prospects.
Just to digress for a moment, Giants GM Brian Sabean must be an idiot. What does he know about building a winner? So what if his Giants have won two World Series in three years? He’s got Buster Posey who, in three seasons, has won a Rookie of the Year and an MVP. Why isn’t Sabean shopping him, that fool? Think of all the young prospects he could get in exchange for Posey. Hmm, maybe Alderson can call him up and give him a few pointers on building a winner.
Okay, bad analogy. Posey is 25, Dickey is 38. However, Dickey is a knuckle-balling 38. Charlie Hough pitched until he was 46, Tim Wakefield to age 45 and Phil Niekro until 48. Hoyt Wilhelm was 50. Think 38 is old? Well, consider it’s very possible that Dickey will still be pitching when David Wright retires.
Jose Reyes, among the most exciting players in baseball, was one of the most popular Mets in decades. Although he’d been our shortstop for eight seasons, Alderson channeled M. Donald Grant. After putting down his talents by saying speed was not important, he told Reyes, “Show me what you can do.” Jose sure showed him, becoming the first player in team history to win a batting championship… Then Alderson showed him the GW Bridge and pointed him south.
Alderson told us that Reyes wanted too much money and, due to his history of injuries, it was too big a risk. Fine, whatever.
Fast forward to one year later. RA Dickey became the one and only bright spot in yet another abysmal Mets season. He was the feel good story of 2012. For a change, the Mets were presented positively in the national spotlight. R.A. became the first Mets pitcher in more than a quarter of a century to win the Cy Young Award, and the first knuckleballer ever to cop the award. In addition to setting a team record of 32 2/3 consecutive scoreless innings, he also led the NL in innings pitched, strikeouts, complete games and shutouts.
Last winter, Alderson told us he couldn’t keep Reyes because he wanted too much money and that he wasn’t worth the risk due to injuries. This winter, Alderson lets Dickey walk because of a difference of only $6 million over three years in a new contract. And ironically, who do we get back, but a catcher who missed half the season with a knee injury, and also missed half a season in 2010 with two bulging discs in his back.
If we had no problem getting rid of Reyes because of injury concerns, then why now is it acceptable to get a player trying to recover from a season-ending injury? An injury to his knee… And a catcher yet, too…
M. Donald Grant is regarded as the worst GM in our history. He traded Seaver, Kooz, Tug, Rusty, Cleon, Buddy, etc… However, I have more respect for him than I do for Alderson.
Grant was an autocrat, a businessman who ran the team with a dictatorial approach. He did not care that the stands were empty. He did not care that the fan base detested him. He did what HE wanted with no fanfare, no concern for us. Mets fans be damned.
Alderson, however, gets rid of players in Grant-like fashion, but then turns around and tells us it’s good for the team. Don’t lie to me. Don’t insult our intelligence. Don’t treat us like we are stupid. Don’t talk down to us. Our wins and attendance have dropped for three straight seasons and these trends will continue into the future. isn’t that the truth?
Whereas Grant destroyed the team, he didn’t placate us with soundbites. Alderson does the same, but then lies to us about how great things are and will be.
If D’arnaud is indeed the next Mike Piazza, the second coming of Mickey Cochrane, then why did we also need to get John Buck? Isn’t one great catcher enough?
I guess the Mets approach is simple: If you’re good, we have no interest in keeping you. But if you’re no good, you’re more than welcome to stay. This approach confuses me.
Am I supposed to root FOR guys like D’arnaud or against him? I mean, lets say he does great. He’s Buster Posey 2.0. He’s Johnny Bench. He’s Yogi Berra. But if he does really well, then what? He’ll want more money and become too costly and we simply cant have that. So we’ll simply trade him for a couple of good prospects. Is that the cycle? The plan? The future?
What’s the long range goal?
When does this merry-go-round of lunacy end?
Why draw the line there? What if, GOD FORBID, Lucas Duda hits 35 HR’s next year? Well, we can trade him for a couple of prospects. Maybe Jon Niese will come through and become a 20 game winner like, say, oh I don’t know, RA Dickey. Eureka – Sell High – We can surely get two huge prospects for him now. Jackpot.
I can almost see M. Donald Alderson licking his chops at the thought of it.
Guys play well, they’ll earn more money, and that’s not something that fits into the Mets plans… This new philosophy.
Hey, here’s something to consider. Maybe if Alderson trades away each player for 2 or 3 prospects, he can get a special dispensation from Bud Selig. Maybe the Mets can have a 60 man roster. (Of course, 57 of them would suck but still…)
And wow, imagine if in 2013 David Wright becomes the first player to hit .400 since Ted Williams. Hmm… A .400 hitter would definitely warrant a few prospects and he is getting long in the tooth at 31.
Last season we bid farewell to Jose Reyes. Now we all watched R.A. Dickey get sent away. Both are now reunited in Toronto, a team that is determined to win. GM Alex Anthopoulos stated on Monday night that the Jays have not been to a World Series in 19 years and “that’s too long to ask fans to wait”. Hey, Alex, try 26 years.
Reyes and Dickey are now with a team that has become the powerhouse of the AL East, and fully capable of dethroning the Yankees. Maybe next October, Reyes and Dickey can join the likes of Carlos Beltran and Angel Pagan. Remember them? They are also ex-Mets discarded by Alderson who then immediately found their way into the post-season with other teams.
About the Author: Rob Silverman
It was 1973 when my dad introduced this 7 year old kid to Baseball and the Mets. It's been a love and passion that has lasted for 40 years, much longer than my first marriage. Since I was little, there've been 2 things I've always dreamed of: 1) Being a successful author and 2) playing right field for the Mets after Rusty Staub retired. Although 4 decades have passed and based on the current condition of the Mets, I have not given up on either dream
151 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
Recent Comments
- RandomGuy: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: And you keep Murphy at first? Duda...
- XtreemIcon: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: Scouts don't lie. Maybe they get it...
- BadBadLeroyBrown: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: Second base of course...Mets have a free...
- BadBadLeroyBrown: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: I have never heard he was miserable...
- RandomGuy: on The Future Is Here: Six Scoreless In Wheeler’s MLB Debut: Now, just throw down an epic trade...
Latest From Mets Minors
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1332 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Why don’t you simply ask this question to yourself. Has Sandy Alderson ever built a winner? A champion? Then read the mess you just wrote and realize, yes, you know nothing about baseball.
Tom, many people do not know this, so I just want to add some perspective to your comment. When Sandy Alderson had his success with the A’s, he did so while maintaining the top 5 payroll in baseball. After the owner died and new owners came in they slashed payroll 75% and with that Alderson left the team in Billy Bean’es hands. I really cant say why this is widely ignored or unknown, but a little research on anybody’s part will bear this out.
Last time sandy alderson built a winner, Madonna was the hottest thing on earth and the best movie was dick tracy… Yeah, exactly.. This people are either blind or just plain stupid. Alderson as a GM has had 8 straight losing seasons, and while he doesn’t give a f*** about records, he obviously doesn’t care about winning in NY either nor its fans.. The worst GM the mets have ever had..
Sandy Alderson’s “winner” was built around two draft picks and a couple of shrewd trades.
Jose Canseco was signed prior to Alderson’s involvement with the baseball operation. Mark McGwire was his first first round pick, and Walt Weiss came along in 1985. He also drafted Terry Steinbach and traded for Carney Lansford.
His key trades- Rickey Henderson for kids, swiping a bitter and alcoholic Dennis Eckersely from the Cubs,
Basically, he stockpiled prospects who he would later turn into Bob Welch, the return of Rickey Henderson,
Alderson hired Tony Larussa- who hired Dave Duncan who turned Dave Stewart into a perennial Cy Young contender, revigorated Bob Welch’s career. And would take flyers on the Matt Moores, Scott Sandersons, Storm Davises, Curt Youngs, and even Ronnie Darlings of the world who would thrive under Duncan’s tutelage
Really, was it Sandy? Or was it his head of scouting in those years- guys like Dick Bogard and Walt Jocketty who developed his players along with Duncan’s pitching brilliance who led to the one World Championship in Oakland?
GREAT ARTICLE….. Tremendous article tyed.. But of course, get ready to take the heat for pointing out SA’s flaws as a GM. He’s done a horrendous job as a GM of this team, yet a move like this brings out the sabergooners and sandy lovers out of their cave to once again praise the man and how smart he is. Same thing that happen when he got eamus, when he traded beltran and krod, when he let reyes go, when he acquire those 3 POS’s relievers last offseason, those guys will attack you because their lord cannot be put on trial. be ready…
Is this your idea of baseball talk?
Predicting what people may or may not say, and calling them name? “yet a move like this brings out the sabergooners and sandy lovers out of their cave to once again praise the man and how smart he is. Same thing that happen when he got eamus, when he traded beltran and krod, when he let reyes go, when he acquire those 3 POS’s relievers last offseason, those guys will attack you because their lord cannot be put on trial. be ready”
yeah that’s not instigating or anything
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tie-Dye – thanks for putting a lot of effort into this article. I too, am a long time Mets fan, even saw Willie Mays play.
With that being said, I strongly disagree with the comparison of Grant and Alderson. First off, we live in a different time, of 24/7 news, internet, complete saturation of mostly peoples opinions, which are often confused with fact.
Dickey had a superstar year, not career. Sorry, but when Omar signed him it wasn’t exactly like the day the Mets signed Mike Piazza, and lucky for we Mets fans the signing was on incredible lucky one. The guy was minutes away from playing abroad, no one would have predicted his success. Not even in the same universe as the Tom Seaver trade.
There is nothing to not like about Dickey, but there is no room now for sentimentality, this is a case of selling high is best for the organization.
Kay – Thank you for disagreeing with Rob and doing so in a respectful and productive way. I wish more people would do that.
Thanks Alex.
Sure, bring it on. LOL
Tie Dyed: You & I could go back and forth for hours. Good write up though. I took some stuff out of mine so I could respond to you here instead of make it seem like my write up was a retort to yours (wrote it 2 days ago lol)
A few thoughts for you.
“Tom Seaver for Doug Flynn, Steve Henderson, Pat Zachary and Dan Norman worked out well for us?”
#1 – Dickey is not Tom Seaver. When Tom Seaver was traded he was a home grown superstar with 2 Cy Youngs and finished in the Top 7 for cy Young voting in the final 6 out of 7 full seasons with the Mets. Dickey had 1 exceptional and unforgettable season. Seaver had 8.
#2 2 of the players acquired in the Seaver deal already had mlb experience was Flynn (25 years old) had 182 games, Zachry (25 years old) had 40 starts and 50 appearances. Henderson and Norman did not. The amount of scouting reports out there for those two compared to today’s reports is not even a comparison.
(This is the part I took out of mine and it’s a point I think people use too often.)
#3 “Dickey is 38. However, Dickey is a knuckle-balling 38. Charlie Hough pitched until he was 46, Tim Wakefield to age 45 and Phil Niekro until 48. Hoyt Wilhelm was 50″
Wakefield after age 38: 56-57 4.74 ERA 566K 308BB 933Hits 934 innings
Hoyt Wilhelm pitched in a different era but after the age of 38 he started 3 games out of 546 appearances. If you’re going to tell me keeping Dickey to be a reliever was a good idea, then I am sorry I can’t agree with you
Hough after age 38: 85-101 4.02 ERA 979K 747BB 1,445Hits 1631 innings
Niekro after 38 140-121 3.70 ERA 1,396K 891BB 2,245Hits 2,311Innings and oh by the way is a hall of famer and had 8 impressive years before he turned 38.
If I told you over the next 3 years Dickey will average 10-11 3.08 ERA 192 innings 119K 96BB 184Hits 1.20 Whip are you still as angry as you are today?
If so, then Dickey is untouchable to you and that’s fine.
I differ on Dickey’s wins total. His throw is naughtier and now will have a potent lineup behind him, so expect more run support, which means more wins (15)
juan – respectfully disagree
R.A. Dickey received plenty of run support with the Mets 4.61 runs is very good in today’s game. While I agree Toronto’s offense should be much better – I also caution you that the Houston, Miami, Cubs, Dodgers, Padres, Pittsburgh, and Reds represented 7 out of the 10 worst offenses in baseball (excluding the Mets since Dickey cannot pitch against them)
So Dickey will need the same amount of run support but will be facing better offenses. That’s significant.
James Shields had almost an identical season in 2011 to Dickey’s 2012 except he went 16-10.
If I told you over the next 3 years Dickey will average 10-11 3.08 ERA 192 innings 119K 96BB 184Hits 1.20 Whip are you still as angry as you are today?
Honestly, Jessep–YES.
It’s all speculation of course. Last year who could have predicted Dickey winning a C.Y.? But look at your proposed stats. Do you feel anyone else on the Mets staff would average a 308 ERA over the next 3 years? I dont
When Alderson first came on board he promised a championship caliber team that will sustain it’s success by 2014. Now until this offseason I felt we were going in that direction. I applauded the Wheeler trade. However, I was quite pleased that we would have a pitcher like Dickey to lead the rotation through 2014 and beyond. Now that he’s gone it appears the 2014 was just a meaningless number with no backbone to it and certainly not the advent of playoff baseball. He’s moved the lined a few years down the road and so I agree with the premise of this post. When are we going to stop moving the timeline and when are we going to start sticking to the timeline? I now have real concerns about the direction and the slow pace that may have us see a few more losing seasons before it gets better. I’m also not seeing the wisdom of placing all one’s eggs in one basket with regard to prospects. You just cant keep trading your best players because they are your top performers, have a high return, and could net you more kids. Something is not right.
Seligman, haven’t you heard? Now it’s 2016 or bust.. Just like you most of us heard the same crap over and over from him and his legion of fans.. 3 years later we’ve done nothing but acquired 3 minor leaguers who will be evaluated around 2016 and up, making 5+ years for us to grade his tenure as a met. The man gets an unbelievable pass from mets fans, it’s not even funny..
Not from me. Still same as I said when Omar was fired. After the off-season of 2013 and opening day 2014 if the Mets are not clearly on the up then I will be holding the pike with the rest.
Alex, mark what TRS said in your calendar. This could make for fun times in March.
March of 2014 but Maniac I am a man of my word. Remember I defended Omar against Alex for years but at some point there had to be a tipping point.
I will Maniac, he’s a chamaleon. He changes his colors all the time, first he said give him until 2013, now is the END of 2014. I Don’t believe that guy
Prove it. From day one I said following the 2013 season… That was what I saw regardless of the GM that the Mets would not reinvest until Johan and Bay were off the books and the kids were ready to be surrounded with FA talent.
I love Dickey and hated to see him go.
That being said, we were likely to finish 4th with him, just like we did last season with his 20 wins.
We’ve got no OF, we had not much in the way of catchers and only half a BP.
With limited resources, the only way we’re going to ‘get better’ is trades b/c we certainly don’t have much in the way of position players almost ready, down on the farm.
So now we’ve got the top pitching prospect as well as a highly rated RHP. Also an 18 year old prospect that may or may not contribute down the road.
Until this team is self sustaining, or the Wilpons put their hand in their own pockets to invest in this team, this is the way it’s going to be.
I love Dickey and hated to see him go.
That being said, we were likely to finish 4th with him, just like we did last season with his 20 wins.”
SRT sigh… THIS. However, thoughts on DW? Why the need to sign him then? He’s likely to become the next jason bay for us, and he draws no fans to the stadium, why the need to then retain him and pay him $20 million starting next year if 2016 is our goal to maybe make the playoffs?
Alex, can you prove your statement that he draws no fans to the stadium? Again, just because you do not like a player doesn’t mean that millions of Mets fans feel the same way. Ultimately though, it doesn’t matter if it’s Reyes, Bay or Wright if they don’t win then people aren’t going to show up at a much larger percentage.
Back in October or early November the Mets mentioned that they would pay part of Wright’s salary from the marketing budget. Thus I am assuming the Mets believe that signing Wright at 16.5M a year will produce a return greater than the cost.
Wait, again, attendance for the NY METS have dropped every year.. How does he draw fans to the stadium? I haven’t heard anybody say “Gee, let’s go to citi field to watch DW play, he sure is an exciting player we’d like to see”. Sorry to burst your bubble, the man is not a draw period.
Can you prove that David Wright doesn’t draw fans? Using current attendance numbers isn’t a resource because their attendance didn’t even drop that much in losing Beltran AND Reyes, so were they not draws either? Again, I know it’s hard for you to admit but the Mets believe Wright would pay for himself and if he was on the FA market he would have gotten most likely more. I know, I know, it’s so hard for you to admit. Moving on though, we know your issues with Wright.
I can prove it. Every fifth day when Dickey pitched attendance was up 31% according to something I read on a Mark Simon post I think. It was ESPN but it wasn’t Rubin I dont think. Anyway, one only needs to look at boxscores on Baseball Reference. Where were those fans when Wright alone was the gate attraction?
Maniac you know as well as I do it would be nearly impossible to account for how much a player draws. However I think the Mets believed that having Wright moving forward would pay off financially. Otherwise, why would the Wilpons do it?
As for attendance with Dickey, Salty did a good job with that here:
http://realdirtymets.com/2012/12/17/when-in-doubt-look-at-the-math/
Any little chance you get to self promote your deserted site you do it eh? Embarassing
Only when relevant Alex, I do the same to articles from MLBTR and MB. Take it up with Joe and see if he has an issue. Otherwise, move on it’s nothing to you.
It is.. I am pointing out how you use YOUR site here to promote after you took shots at the shoutbox. go figure!
“Take it up with Joe and see if he has an issue. Otherwise, move on it’s nothing to you.”
I don’t need to… Just pointing out how phoney you are..
Obviously it bothers you. So instead of saying meaningless words like always, take it to Joe and find out what he thinks about it. Otherwise follow your own advice.
I don’t bother Joe D with crap like most of you do.. Whatever i gotta say i say it and that’s that. You’re nothing but a phony who tried to crap on the site and now since you saw an opp to gather and gain members at your deserted blog came in here trying to be buddy buddy with joe so you can promote your crap while in here (Since you’re here all the time). Pathetic propaganda if you ask me…
What part of take it up with Joe and stop whining are you not getting? Seriously, we got baseball to discuss.
That’s not true. I wanted it to be true and did the research for the post I wrote on the other side but it wasn’t the case at all. I went back into July and looked at attendance figures for the day of his start and before and after. The were the same across the board except his last 3 starts (one of which was in Miami where the fans turned out as well) where his start had a 5k bounce. So take out the milestone and there was no difference.
What I did do in my post (I wont bother linking it for obvious reasons) is show that even if attendance goes down another 2k per game, because they are gotten payroll down under 70m at this point, they have significantly reduced what they need to bring in per person that attends. Plus they raised ticket prices on top of this. They will be in profit city this year.
OK so TRS posted it anyway…
No it’s fine to post it Salty. Joe and I have an agreement that either of us can post links to our sites as long as it’s relevant to the discussion. There is no actual war between us, contrary to what others believe.
My obvious reason his because I know they won’t got there to read it so why bother. I know Joe is fine with it.
Actually I think most of the ones on here would click on any link that would help them be more informed. Will some protest and act like foolish children? Sure but that doesn’t stop us from linking to it.
Yea but frankly the more you poke Alex, the more he slanders the site with untruths. So I would rather you would just back off. We have great readers and great authors and just like his interpretation of Wright’s WAR value. his interpretation of our site is incorrect. But every time you keep bugging him, he continues to say it. The more he says it, the more people might believe it. So just let him get the last message for once and ease up.
OK, well I will continue to post links to any Mets site and when he starts his crap I will do my best to ignore it. I am not going to shy away from posting any links to any site if it’s relevant just because he has his own issues to deal with. You are right, I need to leave him be and let him sink himself.
I guess what I read was wrong or for a different sample size? I trust you did your due diligence so I’ll accept your research. I’m pretty surprised it was only a 5K bounce. Even the eye test on TV just seemed like it was more packed and electric. Let me throw something in, maybe when the team became irrelevant after the trade deadline, perhaps the tickets sold didnt reflect the actual attendance? That is to say those that had tickets didn’t go, but did so when Dickey pitched?
That’s very possible. Ticket sales and attendance can be two very different things. Most likely why the Mets started all those promotions to get more in. Lose concessions and merchandise sales with the place empty.
Winning brings up attendance not one player for any substantial time.
Take a look at the attendance records during Don Mattingly’s career, a beloved Yankee, MVP, Allstar, attendance not so good, then look at their attendance during winning years.
Ultimately that is correct. You get some shock sales when you hit the FA market big time but you rarely “increase” attendance immediately by re-signing players. However, as we have found out there is a point of diminishing returns in the FA market in terms of attendance as well. FA alone can’t provide sustained attendance without winning.
Maniac, thank you… overall attendance has dropped since he became the sole leader of the team. Not sure i heard anybody scream “I’m going to citi field to see DW!!” when he was extended..
I’m not sure how anybody can say Wright doesn’t bring people to the park. Over the last 4 “losing” seasons he has averaged almost 3million all star votes.
You don’t get votes in a popularity contest if you aren’t popular.
Are you really this stupid? You’re comparing sitting in a comp and voting for a player to actually GOING to the game? Are you serious????
Mets attendance the past 3 years
Year Total Avg
2012: 2,242,803 28,035
2011: 2,378,549 30.158
2010: 2,559,732 32,401
Yeap, sounds about right allright.. People are sure showing up to see DW. Mind you, the tickets have dropped in 3 straight years and fans are showing up less and less..
Is that because of losing or because of Wright not drawing. It looks like attendance dropped significantly in 2011 as well with Reyes chasing a batting title and Beltran’s hot half.
Yep. and as soon as they left dropped dramatically more then the previous 2 years so..
I am pretty sure the attendance dropped more in-between 2010 and 2011 than it did between 2011 and 2012. I could be wrong, not being a math major.
Math major and you won’t go together that’s for sure.. You’re just trying to debate for the sake of debating because you don’t wanna admit i am right about your golden boy not being an atraction.. It’s ok brah
If you look at all teams not named the Cubs, attendance is a by-product of winning. There will be spurts here and there when a milestone is occurring like Reyes going for the batting title or Dickey’s 20th win but through 162 games the only way to have high attendance is having a winning product on the field. And 10 cent beer, but then shlt can get crazy.
New stadiums will also give a bounce. So when you look at the Mets they also benefited from everyone wanting to get one last game in at Shea and to see Citi for the first time. That’s why the second year in Citi there was a huge drop.
LOL, look at the numbers my friend.
Did the percentage decrease more in-between 2010 and 2011 or in between 2011 and 2012? Looks like neither Wright, Reyes nor Beltran could keep the Mets from losing attendance because they weren’t winning.
However, how can we know how many actually show up because of one player?
Agreed 2009 and 2010 attendance figures get skewed by the closing of Shea and opening of Citi.
It was published in several outlets that SA would have preferred to trade Wright and sign Dickey, but ownership wanted Wright signed and Dickey traded. Rings true since the Wilpons right out with that ‘wanted Wright as a Met ambassador for life’.
Add in ‘ownership’ having issues with Dickey’s ‘chattiness’ – and well, the handwriting was on the wall.
So, I can only assume that’s why the deal with Wright was worked out and Dickey was traded.
Sorry SRT but I think those conspiracy rumors are just that. You can’t tell me that Sandy wanted Wright traded if the owners were willing to pony up the cash. Those making those comments are just assuming that Sandy would not because it was a 2nd generation contract. However, Sandy never said that all of those were bad and ultimately extending a player shouldn’t even count as that type of FA contract.
Maybe….but if those rumors posted by some of these baseball writers are not true, then it’s even harder to get a gage on what’s going on. Who to believe, who not to believe?
Look at the flame war with Met fans Davidoff started. Even though he put a second article up to ‘explain himself’, he’s still sticking to his story that RA was not exactly well liked in that clubhouse. Truth? Or blown out of proportion rumor to get more clicks on his site?
I just don’t see Sandy and the Wilpons leaking out… Man I like Wright, Well you shouldn’t, lets trade him…
I think it was pure speculation based on previous comments made by Sandy. Besides wasn’t it Fred that said that Wright was a good player but not a superstar (which I agree with before the run arounds come out to convict me)
I think ownership and the FO leak exactly what they want to leak…no more, no less.
They’ve got an agenda, just like every other franchise.
I followed the trade very closely last couple of days on both Met blogs and Toronto blogs.
Those Blue Jays fans were so irate that all the ‘leaks’ were coming from the Mets. And they were right, it was. I’m sure that was by design b/c once it got out Toronto was willing to give up prospect #1 and #3, leaking that might have resulted in another club upping the offer.
It’s well documented that AA is the most close lipped GM out there. They knew it and were gambling those leaks of those 2 prospects were nothing but rumors designed to do what I suggested above.
Now…their fans are as passionate as ours but I’m thinking there was some truth in what they were claiming.
I don’t doubt that teams leak things on purpose. Just saying that I don’t think the Mets would leak that Sandy didn’t want Wright and the Wilpons did. That makes no sense.
If we keep saying that after every fourth place finish as the impetus to trade your best players then we’ll always finish in fourth place. It’s like a hamster trying to outrun his wheel and getting nowhere.
Don’t be fooled by the Wright signing. This “negotiation” was a Kabuki dance from day one. The Mets (see Wilpons) didn’t have the money to sign Dickey. There isn’t a GM alive who wouldn’t have written the check if he had the money in the account, including Alderson.
they would have had plenty of money to sign Dickey for ~13mill in 2014, since Santana and Bay alone coming off the books free up about 40.
Alderson never said speed was unimportant. And you completely ignore context.
You can’t see a difference between the Giants and Tigers of the last 4 years and the Mets?
Umm… What????? Are you comparing the giants and the tigers to the mets?? The Tigers got Miguel Cabrera who is 10847580 times better than DW… The Giants got pitching, we got… Prospects.
“The Giants got pitching, we got… Prospects.”
Probably worth noting that Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Tim Lincecum were all prospects at one time.
I am having a hard time with that line as well?
“You can’t see a difference between the Giants and Tigers of the last 4 years and the Mets?”
How are the Giants and Tigers related to the Mets?
Tie Dyed referenced the Tigers with Cabrera and the Giants with Posey and how neither organization is currently talking about trading them.
My point is the recent history of those 2 franchises is slightly different than the Mets.
Oh yeah, nothing in common for sure.
As was Cabrera, Pujols, Hamilton, and pretty much every player of the last 50 years.
Alex what has been my biggest gripe with this front office more than anything? There awful drafts, strategy, etc, while with the Mets and long before they arrived here. Imagine if we had selected Jose Fernandez instead of Nimmo or Courtney Hawkins instead of Cecchini? There would be no need to go prospecting for other team’s prospects. The fact that they do only shows how inept they are and that they realize the terrible selections they’ve made. What does this trade say about Plawecki who they said would be here by 2014? What does it say that Syndergaard jumped in front of Michael Fulmer? LOL, if you want to know the future of the team, look no further than studying their draft selections which have been an epic fail.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
But hey, according to jesseP, give the prospects 2 years more to develop. according to my math, that’s 2015 for us to see what we got… and if they don’t pan out, then we’re 100 the New York Pirates/Royals for sure.
I have to agree with you. Love the draft, love NCAA Division 1 baseball, cant get enough of it. Evans, Muno, Cecchini, Rosario the $1.7 Bonus Baby from Dominican. They dont trust themselves. Cecchini over Hawkins was inexcusable given the severe dearth of outfielders in the system, especially polished ones like Hawkins. Nimmo has been a disappointment and when Fernandez debuts this year like many believe, that is going to sting. As for trading Dickey I see that as a different issue altogether, I just wish the top prospect was an outfielder rather than a catcher given the investment on K-Plaw and the fact he was our comp pick for losing Reyes.
Donal, I believe the comment (in the context of a much bigger discussion) was that SBs are overrated. Which fits with the analysis done that there is a certain CS% where you end up costing runs (might be 75% or 80%). But Sandy never said speed was not important.
Exactly. I have pointed that out every time someone repeats the “speed is a footnote” lie. And many people like to repeat it, but not one of them, not a single one, has ever actually addressed that point. They just keep spewing the lie.
My favorite thing about this site is the many time we see posts that are so diametrically opposed as this post and the one before it. This post is more to my liking and represents my feelings more than Mr. Patterson’s take.
I’m not going to jump off any ledge because of the deal, but…
Got a question though. Who made out better, the Tampa Bay Rays with Wil Myers heading their bundle of prospects? Or us? Good thing to ponder considering Dickey is infinitely better than Shields. Maybe I’ll send this to MMO for one of those mailbag things. But me and my brother had a pretty substantial debate about it last night and I was wondering what some here thought.
Mitch do you truly believe that Dickey had more trade value than Shields? If so, I vehemently disagree. Of course Dickey has out produced him but sorry their values are not the same. Shields was much higher.
Mitch – I think (not that you asked) the deals are very different. KC didn’t only get Sheilds they got what they believe will be another young SP in 2013 in Wade Davis. They wanted two pitchers, not 1.
“Dickey is infinitely better than Shields” Really?
31-22 3.15 ERA 66 starts 477 innings 448K 123BB 403Hits 1.10 Whip the last two years for Shields
28-19 2.99ERA 65Starts 442 innings 364K 108BB 394Hits 1.13 Whip the last two years for Dickey.
You’re going to tell me Dickey’s #’s make him that much better than Shields?
There is a trust factor with Dickey’s age/repertoire that maybe KC didn’t want to risk but still is Shields+Davis more valuable than Dickey? I’d say so. Gonna throw in Gee with Dickey to get the same package KC got? Maybe but would KC?
LOL, soon you’ll have people putting d’Arnaud on a par with Myers on this site. Give it a few minutes.
Lmao…
Not me, Myers is a beast and much better looking that TDA. However, Shields and Davis is a much better package than Dickey, Thole and Niese.
I applaud you TRS, honesty is the best policy. Unlike Jessep you dont have a full agenda, but maybe a partial plan. LOL
Maniac, I try to look at each move rationally. It has nothing to do with an agenda. As I have mentioned to Alex, I proposed trading Wright numerous times. Of course I am a Wright fan but if it would have made the Mets better… That being said, I also understand why they felt it necessary to retain him and believe that the deal itself is structured well enough to not impact the Mets negatively as little as possible.
Hey, I just like busting chops. I dont take any of the jabs we take at each other very seriously and it’s all good fun.
Actually I enjoy debating you because it rarely gets personal, except when you just randomly flip and tell someone to go do something to their mother… LOL.
LOL You know as well as I do that in the 70s saying that was as common as saying “beat it kid, you’re bothering me” in the 50s and 60s.
LOL, it’s not the 50′s or 60′s anymore.
I know you meant to say dickey, thole and Nickeas there.
Yeah, sorry.
Right and Shields did that in the AL East. Even more impressive if you think about it.
Shields is more impressive than Dickey? This from someone who just posted that people who have differing opinions are certifiable. This place went to hell when the they allowed the kiddie corps in. How I miss the good old days when only the adults frequented this site.
Maniac, in 2011 if Shields pitched in the NL you’d think differently.
16-12 2.82 ERA, 11 Complete Games, 4 Shutouts, 249 innings, 195 Hits, 65 Walks, 225K, 1.04 Whip
20-6 2.73 ERA, 5 Complete Games, 3 Shutouts, 233 innings, 192 hits, 54 Walks, 230K, 1.05 Whip
Those are pretty dang similar are they not? The difference is Shields is 30, doesn’t throw a pitch some teams do not trust and followed up his 2011 season with a very good 2012 as well and pitches in the AL where hitters are better
I don’t think Jc thinking Shields has a bit more value than Dickey is really all that off. I think you’re just assuming they are wrong
Dickey won 20 games for a team that only won 77 games. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Oh and while you are here, can you please Cleanup JC’s act because he just threw everyone who disagreed with him under the bus and insulted us unprovoked. Do your job because I know how much you care about Cleaning things up. Let him get a warning like Alex and me frequently do. Thanks. Actually let me rescind that thanks until you address the problem first. Kay doesn’t like that type of behavior either, right Kay?
Did he? I didn’t take the time to read it. Too long without paragraph breaks.
As for your point on Dickey… touche.
Didn’t we see something about how the run support was higher for Dickey this year as well? That being said I am sure the offense would do better when he is on the mound because they don’t have to stress and space out while he is pitching and they wanted him to win.
Um… okay? See this is where people like you totally whiff on the value of wins. You don’t care how they get the win. You just care about the stat. This has nothing to do with sabermetrics and everything to do with logic.
If I pitch 7 innings, allow 2 runs and lose the game 2-1 and you throw 6 innings and allow 7 runs but the team wins 8-7 so you get the W – who pitched better?
In 2011, Shields got 3.97 runs of support compared to 4.61 for Dickey in 2012. If you take what Shields actually did in 2011 he could have easily won 20 games. Easily.
In 2011 Shields had 4 no decision+losses when he allowed 2 runs or less. Those games go another way and Shields is a 20 game winner because he certainly pitched well enough to be one.
Rays got the best haul and that shouldn’t even be in doubt. In fact by the all star break you will have your answer. Dickey will outpitch Shields, Myers will be in the ROY lead and by a far margin. D’Arnaud might still be in AAA hitting bombs in Vegas that wont make the warning track at Citi.
Mitch – RA dickey just said this on a conference call (tweeted by reporter)
RAD: Asked (Alderson) point-blank that if you’re gonna do this (trade me) please do it to a team that has a chance to win
So maybe this answers your question also? Do you think KC has a chance to win? I personally do not. I like what they are trying to do but a chance to win? I wouldn’t put them in that category
Jessep I don’t for one second think that Sandy gave a damn where Dickey wanted to be traded. The only way that would have come into question was the extension.
You all are insane. I’m telling you the writer of this article and all of you that agree with him are certifiable. Its that thinking that we are in the predicament we are in. Its sounds like you are all longing for the days where Minaya spent like a drunkin hobo on Jason Bay, Oliver Perez, and Luis Castillo. You all pine for the days of huge FA splashes of guys in their 30′s yet bash the men who signed them. Only to bash the guy responsible for not only battling Madoff but horrible contracts of players who didn’t produce anything but misery and depression. He got us in a trade for Beltran who they had no intention of resigning because of his knees a front line pitcher. He then trades a 38 year old journeyman pitcher who while I love as much as the rest of you has had 2 very good and one great year. He sold high and got the best poss deal imaginable. Some of you wanted Wil Meyers but all the reports say the Royals had no intention trading him away for a 38 year old knuckleballer. Sandy fleeces AA for 2 of the best 3 prospects he has and its just more bitching. I would have loved to see all the second guessing if RA would not have been great the next 3 years and D’Arnaud winds up what ppl think he can be. Oh the Sandy is a moron. He kept RA and now we still SUCK IN 4TH PLACE WHICH IS WHAT WE WOULD BE WITH HIM. To get better in baseball you have to get younger. Look at the teams you see win lately. The last 3 Ws’s won by teams who have middle of the road payrolls and sign the occasional FA. The Cardinals let Puljos go and still made it to NLCS. The Giants win with pitching, defense, and role players. Look at the guys who are on those teams…almost all are homegrown with the exception of a few minor additions. I get fed up with fans who are never happy. They would only be happy if they traded Dickey for Miguel Cabrera then complain if he spends 2 years on the DL. It was a necessity to trade him now while his value is highest. You don’t wait for the other shoe to drop then trade him when his value is low cause u wouldn’t have pried Buck for Dickey. Disagree with me all you want. If these guys don’t pan out and Dickey wins 3 more Cy Youngs I will be happy cause that man deserves the best. However, if D’Arnaud and Syndergaard end up as all-stars in 4 years these same people will be bitching about something else. Here’s an article from someone who actually follows the prospect scene.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8756674/toronto-pays-high-cost-dickey-gain-playoffs-return-mlb
Can someone get me the cliff notes of this?
Umm no i agree with the writer and i thought the castillo and perez deals were horrendous. I also wanted Holliday not Bay. Nobody thought Bay would be that bad as well. Ownership does everything half a$$ed and that is why they overspent on bad aging players and didnt keep their own. Their timing is awful they reacted to pressure form fans and press all the time and spent only cus of that. They never cared about winning. Everything they did was stupid and then when our good homegrown guys we love are free agents they let them go. It pisses me off
Um Your analogies make NO SENSE. Noone is talking about trading Buster Posey/TIm Lincecum/Panda….pre-prime. How can you compare a team that drafts studs every year (Giants) to a team that has been decimated by free agency (Mets).
Furthermore…I can guarantee you that if any of the above plater are in their contract year and are questionable at all….Mr Sabean will trade them post haste.
RA Dickey was awesome….but being upset about him leaving for two potential stars is nonsense.
It’s stuff like this you wonder why fanbases think Met fans are so stupid. If I hear Dickey compared to Seaver one more time, I’m punching kittens.
LOL, I think that might get you arrested.
He wasnt comparing dickey to seaver he was comparing the situation to prove a point. Im sure the writer of the post does not think dickey is as good as seaver. He makes a very valid point and i am shocked nobody agrees with it. Why does every makle apologies for this ownership? We are a big market team! This is NY! Big market teams dont trade their fan favorites time after time. They wil trade one here or there but not constantly! I understand sandy has to rebuild and he did a good job on that trade, but that still doenst it make it right that it had to come to that.
God forbid we had a rotation of Dickey,Santana, Niese, Harvey, Gee or WHeeler next year!
In 2014 maybe we could add a stud free agent pitcher to replace santanas spot.
God forbid we added Bourn, Napoli, and a cody ross type guy
Wed have a lineup of
Bourn
Murphy
Wright
Davis
Napoli
Ross
Duda
Tehada
That is an amazing lineup. Hell if we had signed reyes last year wed have Reys instead of bourn at top. Tehada at second and maybe we could signed Pagan or still signed bourn, Wed have 2 speedsters at the top. Power galore and on base percentage
I do like the line about punching kittens! LOL
But, no, of course I wasnt comparing Dickey to Seaver. For the most part, what Dickey did statistically in 2012 was what Seaver did almost every year.
I wasnt comparing. However, as someone who was there in 77 and witnessed it first hand, there were some–in the media/press–in about 78, who were pleased with the trade. Sure, losing ‘the franchise’ was horrible. But we did get FOUR position players for ONE pitcher. That was the argument…for a while
Unfortunately, just like in the world of politics, once people establish a position, in this case pro-Alderson or anti-Alderson, objectivity seems to fly out the window. Like most Met fans, I thoroughly enjoyed rooting for RA Dickey, and will miss him. However, let’s at least calm down and let this offseason play out. We all know about the Madoff-wilpon debacle and its impact on resources, but that is now changing. No, there isn’t Grienke or Hamilton money available, but piece by piece Alderson is managing to set the team up with a deep pool of prospects, especially pitching, while at the same time having the discipline to avoid overcommiting money in 2014 and 2015 to medicore, aging players. I want this team to compete in 2013 as much as anyone, and do not consider this a write-off year in any way, shape or form, despite the steep competition within the division. Yes, the starting pitching has been weakened, but let’s see how they fill the spot. There has been way too much negativity with this franchise, much rightly earned, but perhaps the tide is turning.
The voice of reason.
Mets fans have a tendency to compare players while making no sense whatsoever. Dickey with Seaver, Wright with Cal Ripken or Jeter or Chipper etc… It’s getting a bit ridicuolous
I agree, our players always have to go. Its because of incompetents form the owners and gms of the last 20 years that this team cant win and cant keep its good players. They spend money like idiots and then when it comes time to spend on their own bonafide good payers, they let them go. They should have had enough money to keep Strawberry, Cone, as well as Reyes and Dickey and then build around them. Other teams do it why cant we? Why do we have to operate like a small market team. WHy cant we operate like the red sox of the late 90s to the late 2000′s? Simply from a mercahndise aspect i know i never buy shirts or jerseys anymore because i know they will let good players go.I had a Reyes shirt so much for that. All anybody can buy is Wright, its sad. That being said if u are going to trade dickey then get alot for him and i think alderson did just that.
Maniac, since i don’t post on jesseP’s article, i click on what you wrote and saw it took me to that asinine article of his (YEt another one), and i saw how we were getting called out and others were insulting people calling idiots etc.. Yet noone (Including TRS who likes to be a moderator) said anything about keeping it clean, and the guy who begged like a little bi*** to be the moderator in the shoutbox ultimately destroying it is actually allowing comments on his article to be insulting and degrading to some to be written in there.. But again, it’s when we say things that has more meaning apperantly
I’l be back later, gotta do some work in the office, but that’s why I challenged him to address it. Trust me he wont. I just wanted to prove the things we’ve said about him are true. He has an agenda, doesn’t really care about insults unless they are directed at the pro-Alderson group, and he’s a, well you know. Let him prove he really wants people here to stick to a healthy debate or let him be the fraud we’ve always said he is. Ultimately he says more about himself than we do.
I am not a moderator on this site, therefore your requests are pretty useless since there is nothing I can do or say.
Please stop bringing your personal internet grudges to Tie Dyed’s article.
You always dive into any instances of insults against people with your philosophy. You’re a fraud. You and your pals Kay and Donal. I’m sure Angelo wont get a “stay classy” or an “are there any adults in the room” and your other favorites. Phonies and frauds.
LOL, where in that article has anyone said anything anywhere near as offensive as what you guys did to ultimately get your shoutbox taken off the main page? Remember it’s still around and I am sure you guys could have a field day doing what you do.
Also, as wrong as you normally are, I had nothing to do with the shoutbox being shutdown and my comments on it being a fuming pile (which it unfortunately had become) came months before it was shut down. Thank you and have a nice day.
What’s more insulting, Idiots or sabergooners? Idiots or Sandy Lovers? But of course, the need of you to butt in on every comment is the only reason why you’re on this thread commenting at an increadibly pace
Actually I have tried to discuss baseball with Maniac and others but your normal bullcrap keeps getting in the way.
You’re confused my friend.. the site says MMO, not deserted loser blog created by a guy who spends more time paying attention to other blogs than its own. you can go FYS at that deserted blog of yours along with your buddies who only come here to instigate while you LOL unless it gets real, like that situation with Joe D when he had to ban Kingman for being a bigger phony than you are..
Thanks again Alex, now move along, I am trying to discuss baseball with rational adults like Maniac…
Maniac is not here #1, and second of all, if only he knew how he’s wasting his time…
You mean like you are doing now, wasting mine and everyones time with your foolish diatribes of pointless drivel?
Alex, we’ve had this discussion before and I thought this was settled, but apparently not.
Let me make this as clear as possible. I have no problems with Real Dirty and most of the writers there I consider my friends. I wish you would treat them as nicely as they treat me when I’m commenting over there. Nobody has ever asked me to leave.
You have been here long enough to know that I do allow links to fellow Mets blogs, news, opinions, etc. to be posted here. I think it’s a good thing and it fosters a good community feel among all my fellow bloggers out there who I enjoy talking to on Twitter and such. There’s never been any policy against that.
You keep telling to watch their actions and not just yours, but all I see is you instigating and not them.
I just had to delete 27 comments made today because emails were pouring in about language and such.
I wish you would be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem.
Also, to some of you others. How dare you insult one of our writers who happens to be the most respectful and non-confrontational people I know. Act like adults. Stop with insults.
If you cant handle diversity then this is not the site for you. We don’t suppress opinions here, and if you can only see things your way, you need to find a niche blog that shares your opinions on everything Mets.
Keep it clean. You know who you are and I owe it to the rest of our readers to simply ban you if I see any profanity or insults or instigating here again today.
Some people love the trade, some are on the fence, and some think it sucks. Deal with it. For crying out loud this is America. If you cant embrace diversity what kind of an American are you?
Sorry Joe, I really need to learn to just back-off and not engage. Man is it hard to do.
Allright, later my friend.. No need to address him, he’s a snake and the biggest *** of this site.. He’s not worth it. But hey, thanks for reading and commenting.
Spot on reporting my man! Jumping for joy at the the thought of a potential 100 loss season is the domain of Mets fans. Wont they ever learn that a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush?
Frank, you’re 100% correct.. and to that other guy who offended you buy calling you a fool, just think of someone who doesn’t know about baseball and pay him no mind..
We’ve already made the biggest moves we needed to make, just like the other 2 past offseasons under SA, we will do crap the rest of the way then be close to 90 losses yet again.. But hey, we extended wright so..
So let me get me this straight….
Comments can be deleted, yet this incompetent imbecile’s comments, which almost never have any substance whatsoever on topics, stays put 9 times out of 10? Yeah, makes sense. Fine, I’ll pay your game and try to keep it clean, because with this idiot, it’s hard to.
Alex, when you ever decide to get a set of balls and respond to me directly, because I know you’re too much of a ***** to do so, then talk. You don’t even know who’s on the team or in the system in general so who are you to question anyone’s knowledge?
I dont know who Frank is. Maybe he’s serving in Afghanistan or a veteran like me. He said nothing that deserved you calling him a fool. He agreed with Rob Silverman on his post and that is hardly a reason for an attack. You want people to act like adults? Follow your own advice.
First off, with all due respect, coming from someone who’s in a military family, including having a nephew still overseas, don’t come at me with Afghanistan/veteran stuff.
Next, I’m sick to death of hearing premature chatter about the team finishing last/losing 100 games because it simply isn’t going to happen. Same thing was said last year, the year before that, and the year before that. If you know this team has a good nucleus of players, why in the world you think the loss of ONE PLAYER winning 20 games is gonna kill us? Jimmy Rollins said at the victory parade in ’08 that it takes more than one player to win a championship. All this “sky is falling” and jumping to conclusions is absolutely ridiculous. What I said didn’t come off the right way….but compared to the usual animals here who say worse and get away with it, it’s child’s play.
Even, I don’t think saying they will lose 100 is any more far fetched than saying they will be in the playoff hunt.
Right now I would predict about the same amount of wins as last year. But how many things broke right or wrong to get us where they were then? 10 game swings are actually easy to come by in baseball so 10 more losses puts you right at that 100 games threshold where as 10 more wins and you’re in the playoff hunt. I think the roster is too much influx and volatile at the moment to get on anyone for predicting either way.
TRS, exactly. It’s way too early to predict anything, including World Series predictions, which I’m hearing about with Toronto, LA, and Anaheim with their acquisitions. Remember all the “Miami is gonna win the WS” mumbo jumbo all winter until they came apart, like I predicted?
Let me give you an example of premature assumptions: Wasn’t it around or close to this time just last week when news of Sandy Alderson saying that he has money, but he isn’t gonna spend it or whatever? What happened? People went overboard. Days later, the Dickey to Toronto talks started happening and now the Mets have 2 top prospects, a kid in rookie ball that has potential, and a catcher.
BUT WAIT! There’s more!
The Mets have been looking for OF help, something many said they weren’t. Not gonna lie, whoever it is, hopefully it’s a step up from what the Mets have now. I want to see what happens before the start of ST to make my assessment.
That’s your opinion. Fantastic, great, awesome. However it’s not the only opinion, just yours. All I’m saying is that we have no idea who Frank is? He agreed with one of my writers. I hardly see that as an occasion to call him a fool. We like new people to comment here. I’d like to have him come back and comment some more. I’m not asking for anything more than a respect for one’s differences and allowing people to express their own opinions without fear of being called names or insulted. I”m sorry if you disagree with that, but I don’t believe that is asking for too much.
Joe D, ban him. All this people from certain competitive blog come in here just to insult people and instigate… kinda like Kingman did to a lot of us in here. It’s time you decide to come out with your own wrath to others, it’s not only me, bayonne and maniac that stir stuff up in here, this guy used to do the same in the shout box, hence the name bayonne gave him of even ___w. He’s on of the worst people to have in this blog, i can spot new people right away because we always here and see who’s been here before and who hasn’t. and for someone to come in right away and get insulted can leave a bad taste in someone’s mouth…
You seeing this right?
Of course, this troll has to say something. Why is he still here again? I can respect new members and opinions, whatever….but I have no respect for this child.
Lol, ban who? I was responding that it is ok to predict 100 losses if one chooses and it is not out of the realm . You are so misguided you don’t even read what people write anymore, just who writes it.
As much as I love R.A. Dickey, I think this was a smart trade by the Mets. R.A. will never be a hotter commodity than he is right now, and we can’t ignore the glaring hole we have at catcher not just at the Major League level, but throughout the farm system. The Mets got the #1 catching prospect in baseball, a stop-gap catcher to put some power in the lineup immediately while most likely waiting to call up d’Arnaud until late April or May, and a top pitching prospect to add to the high-potential, young arms in the lower leagues.
You can’t compare this trade to what Alderson might potentially do with other players after big years. He’s trying to get a young nucleus of players, and the best way to do that is to trade Dickey while he’s hot. Wheeler is one year away at most, Harvey is already in the rotation, Niese is a strong lefty in any rotation, and Mejia is still waiting in the wings for a chance to show his worth again. The Mets had the supply in pitching, but were bare in other areas. You have to weigh the marginal gains and losses. Sure, losing Dickey, the reigning Cy Young winner, is a major loss. Comparatively though, bringing in d’Arnaud is a much bigger gain to the franchise than trading Dickey is a loss, because of the lack of quality catchers not only in the Mets system, but throughout baseball.
I hope Dickey goes out and kills it again, and if he does, I’ll certainly say, “Man, I miss that guy.” However, the Mets got amazing value for him, especially considering that he wasn’t a home-grown talent, and Alderson made the right move to strike while the iron was hot. The Mets probably won’t be winning anything significant this year, but it’s not like they were going to do much winning with the Thole-Recker tandem this season. The upgrade at a major need position was marginally greater than the loss of Dickey.
First off, M.D. Grant was never the GM of the N.Y.Mets, had no experience working as a G.M. He was however, “old school” in his approach to labor/ management issues in baseball and just could not accept or support the idea of free agency. Had Mrs.Payson and Gil Hodges not died the Midnight Massacre of 1977 would never have happened. Grant, putting it simply was not a baseball man and his only concern with his players was to keep them subservient to the team.
Moving on, we would all pretty much agree that we would love the Wilpon’s to sell the team, but that is not going to happen. You can blame the commissioner for allowing the Wilpon’s to hold on as opposed to how he handled the Dodger’s issue. As it stands Dodger fans end up getting new ownership that has the deepest of pockets and has committed tons of money to improve the team. The Wilpon’s had a choice. Take Sandy to do what was necessary or sell the team, They chose to take Sandy and let him do what was necessary within the parameters of money available to keep the team afloat.
If you want to be pissed off….direct your anger to the owners! Forget about Moneyball, forget about things that happened 25 years ago and move on. The game changes constantly and not always for the better. Last years can’t miss teams were the Marlins and Angels. Oops!
Now we have seen the Angels throw huge numbers to sign Josh Hamilton after signing Albert Puijols.last year and the Blue Jays committing big bucks in the deal with the Marlins and now the Mets. The outcome?
If you really believe that the 2013 team was going to be a contender then losing Dickey would not be a good thing. They finished 4th and as Ralph Kiner has repeated for years….Branch Rickey maintained that the team finished last and could do the same without him!
What is happening now will be a factor in a couple of years!
.
The comparisons in this article are a joke. Miguel Cabrera, Buster Posey. Lol. Um those 2 teams were just in the WS. WTF would they trade those players for prospects when they’re probably still going to be playing in October over the next few years. Do you honestly think the Mets would be if we kept Dickey and added a few pieces? Lmao. It amazes me that people here think Alderson came in and busted up a perennial contender. He didn’t even break up a winning team, he broke up a sub 500 team with one of the highest payrolls in the sport. Some people just love to remain in mediocrity.
Well said. Obviously it sucks to trade away a reigning Cy Young winner, but this is a losing team with many holes to fill. Easiest way to fill those gaps is to trade value. It’s not like the Mets were in pennant discussions before trading Dickey.
Geez. How hard is it for Mets fans to understand that THIS TEAM IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A REBUILDING ???
Let´s see, with RA Dickey (age 38, a year away from free agency) the Mets won 74, 77 and 78 games after winning 72 games the year before he joined – the first two losing seasons before Sandy Alderson ever took over the GM post.
Meanwhile, the Detroit Tigers have won 88 and 95 games over the last two years with Cabrera (age 29) and made the playoffs each time.
Likewise, the SF Giants and Buster Posey (25) have won 94, 86 and 92 games respectively over the last 3 years and won the WS twice.
The window for the Tigers & Giants has been to WIN NOW.
The Mets´ last window unfortunately closed after the 2008 season when injuries and an aging core group of players, plus a handful of underperforming contracts, combined with financial struggles by ownership and an inability to afford a large market payroll struck.
Realistically, the earliest a new window was going to open was in 2014 – even with RA Dickey on the team and – finally – a clean slate financially. Due to the explosion of free agency costs, this winter, the market for affordable starting pitching has exploded as well. Suddenly, you had to weigh whether Dickey is best used as a longterm keeper or as trade bait for the longterm success of the Mets. Alderson & Co. mananged to get a tremendous haul in a trade for Dickey in D´Arnaud – a consensus top 20 prospect in Baseball – and Syndergaard – a consensus top 50 prospect in Baseball. That offer – too good to refuse – will hopefully be a key factor in the longterm success of this franchise and a sustainable run of contending.
Whether that runs begins in 2014 or in 2016 remains to be seen – and depends in large part on how good Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler, Travis D´Arnaud and others end up being and how quickly. But the odds that the run will happen at all have increased greatly thanks to this trade – which EVERY OTHER GM in Baseball would have gladly accepted in the position of Alderson, had it been available to him.
Look, with a brief interruption in 1994 and 1995 when Joe McIlvaine was GM, this franchise was in “WIN NOW” mood for almost 25 years – between 1986 after the end of the World Series and 2010, i.e. the final season of the Minaya era. That approach was flawed for the most part as the Mets lacked a really strong foundation after 1990 and the departure of Darryl Strawberry and a ton of questionable personnell decisions. There were brief highlights like the 1998 through 2000 or 2006 through 2008 runs – two brief periods of three year success, achieved with a couple of strong homegrown players combined with a massive payment for top notch veterans. But basically without a longterm plan in place that would have made such a run sustainable.
Right now, we´re in the middle of a process similar to the early 80s. I´m sure a lot of Mets fans weren´t happy when fan favorite Lee Mazzili – one of the few bright spots on an otherwise disappointing team – got dealt in April of 1982 for two prospects.
One became RH Ron Darling. the other one RH Walt Terrell – later traded for 3b Howard Johnson.
Essentially, Mazzilli – a nice player on a below average team – turned into two key pieces for the run from 1984 through 1990…
So is David Wright the modern day version of George Foster ?
A veteran player on a rebuilding team making too much money but signed to bring “credibility” to the team and fans to the park ?
Oh Dear Tie Dyed….
You unleashed the Wrath of the Sand People (opening July 28th 2014 at a theater near you!)
I totally agree and what these folks seem to be missing in your post is that this approach is a self perpetuating cycle that never ends and never has that happy ending until somone gets hired to GM that says “ENOUGH” time to use some of the players we have on the field instead of the trade market…..
Just look at the last three years and at any given time of a trade ask yourself who was the best player on the team at the time and what did we do with him?
K-Rod the best Pen arm we had….Traded (and for pretty much nothing)
Beltran The heart and Power bat of this team….Traded for Wheeler (only trade that so far makes any sense)
Reyes probably the best player left on the team at the time having just won a Batting title, let go to get 2nd round COMP picks and to take a guy (Plawlecki) we couldn’t wait to be ready and had to trade our Cy Young pitcher away to get someone to take his spot.
Then Pagan was the best OF we had we traded him for two stiffs from the Giants that lets face facts we probably could have gotten in the Beltran trade by adding some kids to that package.
They signed Wright (which is a departyure from them but only because they know if he went tickets will have to be given away in order to get someone in the park to see them….
Now they trade Dickey to get the player who makes the Reyes Comp Pick a COMPLETE WASTE and got an A Ball Pitcher who might be good but no one predicts will be even close to a Cy Young guy. He is a Sinkerball Pitcher I predict will wind up in the pen, not the rotation.
Whats the next move? Davis, Duda, or Both? We are not going to win with them in the next 3 or 4 years either so might as well pack them off….
And it will continue with Harvey and Wheeler and we almost are already at the point where we consider trading Niese…one good year where you can get more than one kid and it’s Adios Muchacho!
When does it end?
When Sandy gets fired and a new GM comes in that decides having Kids is only worth it if you plan on actually using them on an MLB field and keep them on your team regardless of how good they are.
If you don’t keep your best players then your keeping your WORST players!
Sure you have a lot of Kids but the mantra will be WAIT 4 YEARS to see how good they are and then when those 4 years come we trade them in for another 4 years!
Vicious and self perpetuating cycle that never ends until someone comes in and says NO MORE STOCKPILING, time to use the kids we have and keep them if they are good!
And when they aren’t go and sign someone who can take the spot until a Kid is ready to take his place and alow you to trade that guy you signed for more kids.
That sums it all folks !
Maybe we should have kept Bay too. He had at least 3 good seasons. Maybe we could have built around him.
Name the point Bay was ever the BEST GUY on this team….
People point to the Mazzilli trade as if thats the trade that made us the champs in 86 when the truth is it was the trade for Niel Allen who no one thought was worth squat to anyone that got us Hernandez that made that team what it was….Brooks trade was the opposite of what has been proposed is the way to go here….We traded multiples for Carter that sealed the deal!
Mazilli at the time wasn’ the BEST player on the team at best you could say Brooks was…
And he was no longer the BEST player on the team at the time we traded him and kids for Carter….
Never once has the Mets built a winner by trading away it’s best players….
Every time we have done that we have wound up with a decade of “Oh Well there is always next year…” And that would last for half a decade or longer.
We traded Seaver and how long did it take to be a winner? NINE YEARS!
All that can be said as a plus for trading away all your best players is that while your sucking so efficiently you will collect a lot of top overall and top 10 draft picks like we did when Cashen got here which resulted in Gooden and Strawberry (top overall picks) being the only goodness we got from 5 Top 10 Picks!
But Cashen is a genius right?
Well if you think that then you had better review what he did to get us to 86….
It wasn’t by trading away out BEST players but by trading away guys who were no longer our best and by trading away kids with them to get the ONE player who actually filled a glaring hole and made the team BETTER not 4 years from now but right away!
Tie Dyed -
Wow – excellent article! And I’m not saying that because I agree with you (but I do…) just look at the number of responses that prove you hit a raw nerve.
This is not about comparing Seaver with Dickey. And people who get hung up on that are missing the point IMHO.
If anyone were to take the Dickey trade as a one-off – they may have a point. We needed a stud catcher and this kid may be that someday.
However, it’s what sandy has already done to the team which made keeping Dickey irrelevant that is really the point here. The team is not going to compete next year with or without him. That is because Sandy has already gutted the team.
As I wrote yesterday, comparing what is going on now to the Mets ‘Dark Ages’ of 74 – 79 is fair. People want to compare Sandy with Cashen which is wrong. Cashen was given the worst team in baseball – Sandy was given a competitive but flawed team. Cashen made some tough decisions – Sandy is salary dumping. When you salary dump you will pick up prospects – but you are still salary dumping.
I agree that the worst part about this is how disingenuous Sandy has been during the process.
The only different opinion I have is that no one was worse than M. Donald Grant because he took over a team and destroyed it on his own. Sandy is simply Wilpon’s enabler.
Good job – good stuff – keep it up! Very courageous!
Excellent pints. Too bad there are so many that have embraced losing, have embraced losign is ok, and have embraced the propaganda that a team fairly close to being competitive can’t be made a winner. But, these same loser lovers act as if Sandy alderson was the first G<M to trade a star for a kid or two. I hope they go to a lot of games because the vast majority of New Yorkers aren't paying Wilpon major league NY prices for a piece of garbage that might someday be ok.
this article is really dumb. 38 years old. wont be here or at least good when the mets are relevant. dont tell me about wakefield or hough because they didnt throw a knuckleball in the 80s, no one ever has so RA is a unique case and needs to be treated as such. toronto just showed what having a strong farm system can get you, and how idiotic is it to blame sandy for this when clearly he is hamstrung by his broke owners. i expect better from a writer from this site
Wow the author of this article knows nothing about baseball, you build your team around young stars not 38 year old pitchers knuckleball pitchers, the mets ROI on these trade is amazing, and once the mets start winning with this cheap young team, profits will raise and so will spending
sorry for the typos