18
2012
Sandy Alderson And His Legacy Of Diminished Expectations
An article by Tie Dyed
Who can forget where we were and what we were doing on December 16, 2004? (Ok, I admit it. I didn’t know the exact date either). It was a huge day for us fans. After finishing 25 GB and under .500 for the 3rd straight year, Omar Minaya made not only a bold move but made a statement. The New York Mets—yes, OUR New York Mets—signed the top pitcher of his era: Pedro Martinez.
Granted, we all knew at 33, Pedro’s best days were likely behind him. However, it sent a message to the National League. The Mets were back! And ready to build a champion.
Just as the realization of Pedro pitching in blue and orange took hold, the Mets did not back off. Less than one month later our GM went out and signed one of the game’s premier hitters and 5 tool superstars, Carlos Beltran.
Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran within 30 days? Yes, it was a hell of a good winter. Remember how it felt? Remember how we were drooling in anticipation? Opening Day could not get here quick enough.
The Mets improved their win total by 12 and finished just 7 GB. Pedro went 15-8 with a 2.82 ERA and although Beltran struggled in the NY spotlight, we felt hopeful for a bright future. We were heading in the right direction.
Meanwhile, 3000 miles west, in August that year, the Giants called up a pitcher named Matt Cain.
In spite of the improvement in 05, Mets fans hungered for more. We were on the cusp of something great. We had Pedro, Beltran and youngsters David Wright and Jose Reyes were coming into their own.
If we thought the 2005 off-season was good, 2006 far surpassed it. There were areas for improvement. And Minaya acted.
Our closer, Braden Looper, posted an unacceptable 3.94 ERA. The Mets went out and signed Billy Wagner and his 284 career saves. Wagner responded and in his first season he recorded 40 saves (3rd most in team history) and a 2.24 ERA.
While Doug Mientkiewicz provided a good glove, first base is a power position. Minaya was able to pull the string and bring Carlos Delgado to Flushing. Like Wagner, Delgado put up solid numbers, knocking in 114 RBI’s and 38 HRs.
That same winter we said a tearful goodbye to our beloved Mike Piazza. No one could fill his shoes. But in 2006 it was fiery Paul LoDuca behind the plate. LoDuca hit 318, the 2nd highest of his career.
Pedro. Delgado. Wright. Reyes. Wagner. Veterans like Glavine and El Duque. Yes, we were on the verge of greatness. A dynasty to rival the 1980’s. We were taking New York back from the aging Yankees.
We still remember that late October evening. Carlos Beltran flinched at the knee-buckling curve delivered by Adam Wainwright. We sat and watched in disbelief as the Cardinals celebrated on OUR field, in OUR home.
The disappointment of 2006 was a bitter pill to swallow. As we blamed Aaron Heilman and cursed Yadier Molina, we were still hopeful. Our young players now had post-season experience. We finally dethroned the mighty Braves and although we fell short in 06, we were confident this was the start of something new, something great. This was only the beginning.
That winter the Mets fine-tuned the bullpen and also acquired veteran Moises Alou.
In 2007, the Mets were on fire all season but suffered a September collapse for the record books. Our 88 wins put us just 1 GB of our 2nd straight division title.
That season also saw the debut of Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum.
2007 was another bitter pill to swallow…but we remained hopeful. 185 wins in 2 years for the Mets is something to behold. The future was still bright. We were oh-so-close. We could taste it. We were only one or two players away from getting that Championship.
On February 2, 2008, I was driving down the street listening to the radio when I heard the news. I screamed out in excitement, pounded my steering wheel, pulled to the curb, picked up my cell and called my dad. When he picked up, I shouted, “Holy &*%$, we just got Johan!!!”
Once again, Mets fans were chomping at the bit, counting down to Opening Day. The best LHP pitcher in baseball would be towing the rubber for us every fifth day. It was a great time to be a Mets fan. After falling short in 06 and 07, NOW we’d finally get to the Promised Land. We were ecstatic.
That same winter, 3000 miles west, Giants GM Brian Sabean picked up the phone. He asked the Padres if he could negotiate with San Diego’s manager, a guy named Bruce Bochy. The Padres CEO was Sandy Alderson. Alderson said ‘Go right ahead.’
On August 14 of 2008, a rookie third baseman named Pablo Sandoval made his debut.
2008 was another heartbreak. We tallied 89 wins, just 3 GB and missing the Wild Card by 1. Three straight seasons. Three straight heartbreaks. While we were building a winner and focusing on dethroning the Braves, it was suddenly now the Phillies who were the class of the NL East.
Our hope was waning. But we still felt confident. We still had a hell of a good team. We were competitive. We had talent. We could almost taste the champagne on our lips.
That winter Omar Minaya ratcheted things up. He went out and signed the premier closer in the game. Fresh off his record setting 62 saves with Anaheim, K-Rod would now be closing for us. The Mets also acquired innings eater Livan Hernandez and veteran proven winner Gary Sheffield.
In spite of 3 straight gut-wrenching years, we spent the winter eagerly awaiting Opening Day. No matter what happened in the past, the future appeared bright.
I don’t want to start a debate about our GM’s. One ran the Mets as a team, the other as a business. One was concerned about wins on the field, the other is concerned with the bottom line, putting a sub-par product on the field, and then asking fans to hand over money.
Bruce Bochy has been at the helm of the Giants for 6 seasons. The Mets have had 3 managers in that time. In the 16 seasons since Brian Sabean has been running the Giants, we’ve gone through 5 general managers. Maybe something is to be said about the way the Giants do things: After all, they’ve won as many championships in the last 3 seasons as we’ve won in 50.
Did Omar fail? Maybe, maybe not. But at least he tried. All those years he was our GM, we were seemingly only 1 or 2 players away from a championship. How many players away are we now?
Minaya spent winters bringing us guys like Delgado, Beltran, Pedro, Wagner and yes, even Jason Bay—but at least the man tried. Minaya brought us hope. The first winter Alderson was at the helm, we were pinning our hopes on guys like Brad Emaus, Chris Young and Chin Lung-Hu. (I didn’t bother calling my dad to share the news)
With 2 full-seasons under his belt, Alderson has watched our wins decrease both years. Attendance has continued to plummet.
As heartbreaking as 2006, 2007 and 2008 were, wouldn’t it be nice to at least be part of a pennant race again? Wouldn’t it be nice to play meaningful games after June?
We tried to build a winner under Minaya. That didn’t work. But at least we were heading in the right direction. We were so close. But now? Is anyone out there looking forward to Opening Day? Any Mets fans chomping at the bit for that big series in September against the Nationals when we might be fighting for a pennant?
The point I’m making (in a very long winded way) is this: We’ve gone from a fan base eager to win, thirsting for improvement, hungry for a championship to an impatient bunch, worn down by the spin of the front office.
Think about it. Just a few years ago, we spent winters hoping to IMPROVE. Now we spend winters simply not wanting to get any worse.
The Mets front office considers it a victory not to improve with new players, but to retain the players we have.
This winter our goal is not to go after guys like Upton or Hamilton but to keep what we have. Let’s be honest. If we end up keeping both Wright and Dickey, we’ll consider it a great winter. But is that IMPROVEMENT?
Jose Reyes, in spite of being a Met for 8 seasons, was told by Alderson, ‘Show me what you can do.’ Reyes responded by becoming the first Met ever to win a batting title. Alderson’s response was a kick in the butt and sending him south.
Now, the much loved, hard-working, Cinderella story of RA Dickey has played out. Eight months ago who would have dreamed that RA would win the Cy Young? The last time a Mets player won that award was Doc Gooden in 1985. At that time David Wright had just learned to walk and was two years shy of kindergarten.
The Alderson regime has not only attempted to teach us to do more with less, but he has also trained us to expect less. No expectations breeds a contented fan base.
In 2006, the Mets catch phrase was “The Future is Now.” Under Sandy Alderson, the future is…well, the future is in the future.
“I, by no means, am looking beyond 2011. Our job here is to put the best possible team on the field in 2011. And I think if we work at it, we should have every chance to be competitive.”
Sandy Alderson speaking to the media after being announced as Mets GM. October 29, 2010
About the Author: Rob Silverman
It was 1973 when my dad introduced this 7 year old kid to Baseball and the Mets. It's been a love and passion that has lasted for 40 years, much longer than my first marriage. Since I was little, there've been 2 things I've always dreamed of: 1) Being a successful author and 2) playing right field for the Mets after Rusty Staub retired. Although 4 decades have passed and based on the current condition of the Mets, I have not given up on either dream
227 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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It seems pretty clear to me that Sandy was brought in to try to keep the team somewhat competitive, build up the farm system for the time when the mets can spend money(2014), while making huge payroll cuts for the Wilpons.
This is stupid,
Your name describes your comment….What does, “somewhat competitive” mean???
Theirs no in-between either you are competitive or you are NOT!
I didn’t say that he is right, just that I think thats what he’s doing.
We used to say wait till next year….
now the Mantra seems to be Wait till two years from now….
And then Three….
And then Four…
And then….
Viscious Cycle we are heading towards.
Uh, Omar had money to spend…Sandy doesn’t.
I really liked your post, but you went off track somewhere…
Right after you said you DIDN’T want to debate about Gm’s, you bashed one and patted the other one on the back.
We’re all sick of Sandy’s yapping, but it’s the owners who closed the vault.
And please don’t yap about him needing to be more creative. His job, by owner’s wishes, is to cut payroll and get them back to black. Ownership man, that’s where it’s at. It’s where you give the credit when Omar gets all those great players. It’s who gets blamed when the piggy bank is put away.
Was waiting to see who would bitch about money first, lol.
Alderson wouldn’t have signed Pedro, Beltran, Wagner or traded for Delgado.
Moneyball dude, Moneyball! Alderson doesn’t make those moves!!!
That’s why Alderson is here because he’s supposedly the master o bang for the buck. Guess what, he isn’t.
And money hasn’t been an issue?
“Uh, Omar had money to spend…Sandy doesn’t.”
George Lucas had Money to spend and Ed Wood didn’t does that mean Glen or Glenda was a pretty good movie considering the money he had to work with?
Please for the love of god Stop trying to use MONEY to justify making the Mets SUCK!
Great post Rob, thanks for the trip down memory lane when we used to contend every year. Seems like eons ago. Alderson was supposed to be the antithesis to Minaya, but he’s been a failure.
His Moneyball and sabermetric philosophy has not led to one positive signing. His one much ballyhooed trade has yet to throw a pitch in the majors, and we gave up one of the best sluggers in the National League to get him plus $8 million in cash. That’s a lot of dough for a minor leaguer, he hasn’t even paid any major leaguer that kind of money.
Alderson has a legion of followers that follow him and his philosophy rather than the team. They support every move he makes even the terrible ones. Expect to get bashed over the head for this post. The Alderson apologists are going to attack you personally for this. Wait until Jessep and Donal sees this. They will stain their panties and go off on you. LOL
You are disgusting.
I am with you double M.
Thanks Met—Yes, thinking back to 06-08 seems like we might as well be talking about ground balls to Buckner or Hodges personally walking Cleon off the field
that is a great post, maniac. It really forwards thew discussion. I am so glad I could see that.
It really makes me want to keep reading.
As bad as those heartbreaks were in 2006-2008, I would have that over whatever it is we are doing now. It was exciting and thrilling to go down to the wire every season even though we missed by just one game. Minaya’s number one priority was winning and it wasn’t difficult to see. 2009 and all those injuries made him desperate and it sucked for us and for the team. The Bay signing was his undoing and nobody could have expected what happened.
I agree 100% Julie.
After 2006 (and especially 07) I was worn out and feeling defeated.
But no matter what, it was fun. I view 2006-07-08 like great movies that just happened to have bad endings
I’d much rather go thru those 3 years all over again than the 3 years of 2010-11-12
‘I view 2006-07-08 like great movies that just happened to have bad endings’
’07 and ’08 bad endings that with a little foresight could have been better endings.
Jan ’07 Omar wanted a contract extension and Wilpons said no.
Sep ’07 was one of the worst Sep collapses in ML history.
Fast forward to mid Sep ’08 and the Wilpons turn around and reward Omar with a 4 year contract extension. Just a couple of weeks before we were again eliminated from post season in the last day of the season.
Two years into Omar’s contract extension Wilpons ‘remove’ him from his GM position.
The only reason Omar didn’t finish out that contract was b/c of the Madoff debacle.
Contrary to what the Wilpons initially told the fan base – ‘Sterling Mets will be fine’, that wasn’t the case. They came dangerously close to having to sell the team. They got in bed with Selig which resulted in Omar out, SA in.
Let’s put the blame where it belongs. It’s not the GMs, it’s ownership.
“’07 and ’08 bad endings that with a little foresight could have been better endings.”
Second guessing much? And what foresight was that? A foresight that came to light AFTER the collapse? A foresight that we would never hear of if Mets got a hit when it counted or threw a different pitch in a big spot?
You’re just whining and second guessing ‘after the fact’. They lost the games on the field which is a HUGE point that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge. Second guessing “know nothings” like yourself can only point fingers after the fact.
“Jan ’07 Omar wanted a contract extension and Wilpons said no.”
And this has to do with winning and losing games on the field how?
“Sep ’07 was one of the worst Sep collapses in ML history”.
Yep, Mets lost some heartbreaking games ON THE FIELD. Too bad people like you find solace in pointing fingers everywhere but at the actual game played. It’s because your game and baseball knowledge is virtually non-existent. But you do like to talk about other people’s money. I guess it’s because money is a concept we all identify with. You can’t identify with actual baseball games that decide seasons and sometimes destiny. That’s foreign to people like you.
“Fast forward to mid Sep ’08 and the Wilpons turn around and reward Omar with a 4 year contract extension. Just a couple of weeks before we were again eliminated from post season in the last day of the season.”
Again, not a popular move but this affected that affected the games on the field how?
“Two years into Omar’s contract extension Wilpons ‘remove’ him from his GM position.
The only reason Omar didn’t finish out that contract was b/c of the Madoff debacle.”
A couple of timely hits from your boy toy Wright…AND Reyes too…in 2007 & 2008 Omar is still the GM. It’s all about wins and losses, not “financial constraints”. Again, you do not have the capability to identify of the importance of the games and wins and losses and how THAT dictates front office changes more than anything else. You can’t accept that.
The reason Omar didn’t finish out his contract is because of the collapses, THE INJURIES, i capitlize that because that’s hugely important and defined the 2009 season. And what makes it worse is it came after 2 straight collapses. And finally the ensuing off-the-field controversies.
That’s why he lost his job. And not because of Bernie Madoff. That’ is just poor judgement and lack of baseball understanding on your part. Or just denial. But you have clarity when it comes to being positive about the current GM. But not the previous ones.
“Contrary to what the Wilpons initially told the fan base – ‘Sterling Mets will be fine’, that wasn’t the case. They came dangerously close to having to sell the team. They got in bed with Selig which resulted in Omar out, SA in.”
Again this his absolutely NOTHING to do with the big, big games the Mets lost during the collapses of 2007 & 2008 and the heartbreaking loss in 2006. On the field success dictates everything whether the Wilpons were broke or not at the time doesn’t matter.
“Let’s put the blame where it belongs. It’s not the GMs, it’s ownership.”
And wrong again. The play on the field drove the happenings in the front office. Winning would have cured everything but it didn’t. They lost and like a falling domino, everything else followed suit.
You know nothing about baseball
‘You know nothing about baseball’
Says the ‘fan’ who thinks he does….
You are a piece of work, preaching to someone about not knowing baseball. So the awful finishes of 07, 08 were on the players, the players Omar assembled and not his fault, 09 was all on injuries, of the players HE assembled on the field, yet now ALL the problems of this team are on the current GM, dismissing all factors, but simply because you don’t like him.
After he had an open check book, who did Omar get to improve this team after Billy Wagner, especially after the demise of 07 and 08, lets take a look.
Moises Alou
Damion Easley
Jason Standridge (waivers)
Clint Nageotte
Jorge Vasquez
Lino Urdaneta
Willie Collazo
Chip Ambres
Ruben Sierra
Jose A. Reyes (the catcher, not the shortstop)
Victor Mendez
Derek Lee (the LHP, not the first baseman)
Aaron Sele
Scott Schoeneweis
Jorge Sosa
David Newhan
Mike Bynum
Jose Santiago
Sandy Alomar, Jr.
Marcos Carvajal (waivers)
Chan Ho Park
Jorge Vasquez
Wil Cordero
Then it got even BETTER with
Brian Lawrence
Marlon Anderson
Ricky Ledee
Matt Wise
Raul Casanova
Steven Register (Rule 5)
Ruddy Lugo (waivers)
Jose Valentin
Juan Padilla
Joselo Diaz
Andy Cavazos
Ryan Cullen
Anderson Machado
Fernando Tatis
Robinson Cancel
Saloman Manriquez
Brady Clark
Olmedo Saenz
Tony Armas Jr.
Nelson Figueroa
Ivan Maldonado
Chris Aguila
Jesus Feliciano
Gustavo Molina
Claudio Vargas
Abraham Nunez
Trot Nixon
Andy Phillips
Raul Gonzalez
Brandon Knight
Argenis Reyes
Ricardo Rincon
Al Reyes
Ramon Martinez
Rocky Cherry (rule 5)
Darren O’Day (rule 5)
Rene Rivera
Andy Green
Heriberto Ruelas
Tony Armas Jr.
Valerio De Los Santos
Bobby Kielty
Matt DeSalvo
Jon Switzer
Kyle Snyder
Rob Mackowiak
Alex Cora
Freddy Garcia
Omir Santos
Esmailin Caridad
Casey Fossum
Tim Redding
Tom Martin
Ron Villone
Livan Hernandez
Ramon Martinez
Jose Valentin
Elmer Dessens
Ken Takahashi
Cory Sullivan
Mike Lamb
Wilson Valdez
Arturo Lopez
Pat Misch (waivers)
Emil Brown
Fernando Nieve (waivers)
Gary Sheffield
Angel Berroa
Jack Egbert (waivers)
Kelvim Escobar
Elmer Dessens
Ryota Igarashi
Clint Everts
Carlos Monasterios (rule 5)
Henry Blanco
Mike Hessman
Chris Coste
Josh Fogg
Jay Marshall
Andy Green
Mike Cervenak
Luke Montz
Russ Adams
RA Dickey
Jason Bay
Rod Barajas
Mike Jacobs
Hisanori Takahashi
Shawn Riggans
Jason Pridie (waivers)
Frank Catalanotto
Travis Blackley
Jolbert Cabrera
Luis Hernandez
Carlos Muniz
Bobby Livingston
Manny Acosta
Raul Valdes
Alex Cintron
Neal Musser
Justin Turner (waivers)
JR House
Val Pascucci
Ramon Ortiz
Chad Cordero
Brian Bruney
Michael Barrett
Yhency Brazoban
All those names and the only names that helped this team were RA Dickey, Hisanori Takahashi and Justin Turner. Yeah (3) three players, that certainly took us to the promised land. You are clueless with your Omar was great, SA sucks.
Fact is STILL no ring since 1986 so it’s been failure for a LONG time, but spend all your time on Alderson, the owners and their inept way of running an organization has nothing to do with it.
“Scott Schoeneweis”
Well Maniac your question has been answered – t agee has returned! The site’s premiere second guesser, in fact, the most famous second guesser of all time has returned.
Citing the last 25 years just because the Mets lost a few games on the field. That’s him.
The ULTIMATE in Monday Morning quarterbacking, the ULTIMATE in second guessing has returned.
So it’s second guessing when talking about Omar’s failures, but with the current’s GM unsuccessful seasons you point out anyone that counters your point are fans of Hilter. Class
Yeah the bulk of the names I listed were minor deals, but why is it when Alderson does it you have seventy five comments of “more scrap heap”, Minaya did it and it’s second guessing.
This sites fans are more about Omar Vs Alderson than they are about being NY Mets fans.
This team will continue to be a failure until Owners come in that give a crap about the team. How many of you talk about Alderson and his lying, double talk, have you ever heard the Wilpon’s or Katz speak?
There is no defending Alderson, this team is no better yet with him at the helm, but stop acting like Minaya will be in the HOF. He put together teams that were old and broke down that’s not second guessing that’s fact.
Keep running from the key point….
Sure Omar had failures but he also had successesto offset them.
What has Sandy succeeded at?
Getting Wheeler (which is hardly a success until he does something in the MLB) and what else?
Has he made a playoff?
Has he fixed the finances or have we still been recording losses despite cutting 55 Mil in Payroll?
What part of “there is no defending Alderson” do you not understand?
Your not defending him….OK!
But your also willing to let one good year be the determining factor after two BAD years!
A guy who hits .300 in year three but .200 the preceeding two years is worth keeping but a guy who hit .300 three years and then slumps to .200 did a bad job and should be replaced?
Tell me something if he trades Wright and Dickey will you still give him time to prove himself?
If he doesn’t get into the playoffs or even beat last year’s record does he get year 4 too?
How long before, how many years do you need to realize this guy has no clue what he is doing and no clue about building a team.
How before it hits you that this guy is just a bean counter not a bean breeder and as soon as he balances the books this team is suck for another 10 years before it will be good again?
I don’t mean to sound crass, but do you suffer from a brain injury? Why are you trying to make an argument I’m not having? Do you have a problem with reading, not understand the written word?
I can’t make it any clearer, I’m not defending Alderson, I just don’t get the love affair with Omar when clearly he didn’t get the job done either, and why every thread here is about Omar vs Sandy when the biggest problem is with Ownership, which trickles down by hiring inept people.
1986 was a long time ago.
He got more job done that this guy has in two years!
Got increases of 12 and then 15 games in his first two offseasons!
Sandy has done nothing but ADD to the Loss column and traded away or let go anyone who has been any good the last 4 years!
All in the name of hiring scrubs!
Why isn’t Santana on that list?
That is a list comprised mostly of minor league deals, I’d guess 90%. Do you think Alderson also doesn’t have a list like that?
These were Alderson’s first acquisitions from December 2010 to March 2011. Four months as Mets GM.
Joaquin Arias
Mike O’Connor
Russ Adams
Dusty Ryan
Boof Bonser
Ronny Paulino
D.J. Carrasco
Pedro Beato
Brad Emaus
Quintin Berry
Chin-lung Hu
Chris Capuano
Taylor Buchholz
Taylor Tankersley
Raul Chavez
Willie Harris
Scott Hairston
Chris Young
Tim Byrdak
Blaine Boyer
Dale Thayer
Casey Fossum
Jason Isringhausen
Justin Hampson
Jesus Feliciano
Chris Shelton
Jack Egbert
Les Walrond
Allan Dykstra
See anything you like?
Interesting, when the Red Sox were dangling Manny Ramirez ( a player Omar has lusted over since HIGH SCHOOL )
and Omar offered Lastings and Heillman….
and the whole thing came down to absorbing Manny’s salary….
and then the WIlpons said NO
I guess thats still Omar’s fault, right?
Omar paid Moises Alou 7 mil to play LF rather than Manny 23 mil
Moises hit .344 in 81 games…Manny had a MVP like year and led the Sox to a 2nd ring
Moises gets hurt in 2008 again…we sign Tatis for 3 cheeseburgers and a chocolate shake…he wins comeback player of the year awards…
but yeah…lets blame Omar for that one …
1B – Omar replaced Delgado with a guy he drafted ( Ike )
2B – when was the last time a stud 2B hit the free-agent market
SS – no need to replace Reyes
3B – no need to replace Wright
C – when was the last time a stud C hit the free-agent market
CF – no need to replace Beltran
LF – Chasin Bay – mr. im acctractive at only half Matt Holliday’s price
RF – when was the last time a stud RF hit the free-agent market ( Shawn Greene ? )
By 2009, the mets were in cost-cutting mode…unless you think our 2010 opening day lineup of Jeff Francour, Gary Matthews Jr, Rod Barajas and Mike Jacobs were indicative of anything else
“Waiting to see who would botch about money”
Dude, Alderson has no money and look at his past teams, he rarely did. Notice I didn’t say never though, at one time in Oakland he had cash to burn.
Moneyball, Moneyball…keep screaming that crap, you sound retarded. Just completely stupid.
It’s a fact, there’s no money here until next year.
Nobody….NOBODY… Has any clue what he’ll so when cash frees up. Furthermore, anyone who says this team is lousy because of him is blind. Ownership has no funds anymore because they placed their cash in a ponzu scheme. People who use this Moneyball excuse are just ignorant.
I think some of you saber/Sandy loving people would find something nice to say about Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, & Jeffrey Dahmer if those guys were discovered to love sabermetrics.
That’s how you people are.
shame on you
and on the other hand, i think you could find something against mother theresa or the dalai lama , just cause they would maybe like saber ….. you are something else bay
Bayonne Jays Fan sounds good to me…
Haters are just gonna hate.
When your #1 agenda is hoping the Mets fail so the GM is possibly removed sooner rather than later, its hard to define yourself as a Mets fan.
And when your #1 Agenda is to defend the GM who is making you lose no matter how you root your no more of a Met fan than the one who roots for him to fail to finally get rid of him and replace him with someone who can get good players regardless of how much money he has!
Jeffrey Dahmer was really an under appreciated culinary expert. His knife skills were ground breaking and the way he could take a pomegranate and infuse it with extracted shallot oil was genius. If only he used a different kind of meat he would of been a Michelin rated chef.
Lol
Yep if only he had the money that Bobby Flay does to buy ingredients as opposed to where he was forced to get his meat from!
That seems to be the excuse everyone wants to apply to Sandy here….
lol
This is a fantastic post. I’m really glad I and everyone can see. It does so much to further discussion.
Dude, he paid $8 million for Wheeler!!!! He could have gotten a catcher and second baseman for that for the 2012 season!!!! That was a waste of money!!! He paid $12 million for Francisco!!! What a waste of money!! He sucks ass as a GM!
Great post Rob,
And it makes me sad how no matter who the GM was there was always an attempt to win, an attempt to compete, an attempt to try and do the best you can and give the fans a reason to be happy as much as possible no matter what the circumstances.
Not anymore. And if I may, I just want to post another version of one of the many, many good points you made in this post. You said:
“We’ve gone from a fan base eager to win, thirsting for improvement, hungry for a championship to an impatient bunch, worn down by the spin of the front office.”
I see it as:
“We’ve gone from a fan base eager to win, thirsting for improvement, hungry for a championship to a bunch of saber, fantasy baseball fanatics who get their satisfaction out of comparing ledgers, contract costs, and talking about the latest statistics”
Thanks Rob.
Thanks for the compliments, Bayonne
I cant believe that back page from Newsday was six years ago!!! I have that photo framed and I got it as a Christmas gift that year. Missed opportunities. Back then I thought Reyes and Wright would ultimately lead us to a championship.
I thought the same thing Jets/Mets.
When Omar renegotiated Reyes’ and Wright’s contract, my big question was not **IF** we’d win a championship but rather **HOW MANY** we’d win.
You write under the assumption that Sandy is anything more than what ironically Omar was to the Expos all those years ago. He’s there to stop the bleeding. Everything else waits until the ballclub is either solvent or sold.
If the Wilpons were in a position of strength, they are not hiring Sandy Alderson, they would hire some desperate nonentity content to take orders from an imbecilic dimwitted oldest son of a billionaire who isn’t smart enough to get into a four year college …you know, a real Steve Phillips, Jim Duquette, or Omar Minaya.
I believe Brian Cashman went to a seminary school to be a priest? Ted Kaczinkski (Unibomber) he went to Harvard, just like Sandy. Now how about that? I guess according to sabermetrics The Unibomber can run the Mets too? Just like Sandy, right?
That damn, evil, HORRIBLE Omar Minaya. By the way how many games did you go to between 2006-2008? But you had a lot of fun during those pennant races right? To bad Omar Minaya gave up that HR to Yadier Molina
That terrible, terrible, awful, HORRIBLE, AHHHH!…whatever..That bad, bad, bad man Steve Phillips. How DARE he be the 1st GM to lead the Mets to back to back post season appearance sandwich by 2 pennant races. How DARE that horrible, horrible man.
But Sandy? We wuv him.
The difference?
Omar’s expos with a low payroll >>> Sandy’s A’s /Mets with a low payroll
Omar made that trade for Colon with the intention of winning
Sandy traded K-Rod with the intention of saving money.
A bit different
I just want to know if Sandy is “so clever” where are these innovative trades and signings? Bixler? The catcher I cannot remember his name? What? What?
Anthony Roster Rekker!
I didnt expect a quick turnaround when Alderson arrived, but I never expected we would get as bad as it is. I never saw this mess coming. We went from a team with 2-3 holes to problems everywhere. We are worse off now than we were in 2009 and I never thought that would be possible. He says he’s got an ambitious offseason plan, might as well see what he’s going to do.
Same here Dan, just expected a more competitive team with some consistency but agin we have been sold a bill of goods. Sandy is just driving the bus at the behest of the Wilpons until they can get some cash. I would prefer they just sell the franchise. Calling Mark Cuban ……. calling Mark Cuban ……… you can now purchase the New York Mets!
And how many draft picks did Omar cost the Mets with his wonderful FAs of guys like the Alous of the world?
Also, you write like the Mets history the 6 years Omar was at the helm were full of champagne and trophies. The team made one playoff appearance, had epic collapses, and he left the organization in disarray.
The truth of the matter, other than a brief period in the late 90s, the Mets organization has been garbage since Cashen left. GM after GM has come in and spent to the hilt while producing almost nothing in terms of talent. Other than Reyes and Wright, there are hardly any players who were developed who amounted to anything other than Alfonso. That is not a great track record over 20+ years. Signing all the free agents and spending money doesnt make up for an abysmal record like that.
What are you talking about? His skills at the draft made up for the lost picks. Are you not content with Harvey, Davis, Niese, Murphy who are here now and Flores, Montero, Robles who are on the way?
You want to talk about drafts what was that shit storm we had in 2012 draft?
Plus we didn’t even sign the extra comp second round pick for losing Reyes. Alderson’s 2011 first rounder was 57th in the league in batting. You know who Jose Fernandez is? The best pitching prospect in baseball who was selected after Nimmo by the Marlins.
How can you defend such an atrocity? I understand you like Alderson but no need to be a suck up like Matt Cerrone.
We are talking the draft not international signings. And of the players you mentioned that Omar drafted, how many all star appearances are there between the bunch of them? Zero. So to defend Omar’s drafting is absurd. As I have said, the book is still open and he could have some winners. But thus far, he isnt doing so well.
As for Alderson’s drafts, to even judge them is premature. You can point to whatever players you want, are you willing to bet $100,000 they are going to be better than Nimmo? You have no clue. And whining about the 2012 draft, none of you haters have any idea what will come out of that draft. Again, haters just being haters.
And to point who was lost, stop with the antics. The Mets also drafted two of the faces of the steroid hall of fame in Clemons and Palmero yet you never saw then in a Mets uniform because they werent signed. The Braves had their 2nd round draft pick a couple years ago pass them up. It happens.
Will Alderson take the Mets to the promised land? Who knows. He might be as inept if not worse than Omar. But to judge him when he is taking the proper approach to rebuilding a pathetic baseball organization after only two years shows a lack of knowledge about the game of baseball. Everyone wants to point to the beloved Yankees as to a team that builds by spending money. Wrong. 1990 Stick draft Petite and Posada while signing Rivera. 1992 he drafted Derek Jeter. When were the Yankees relevant? If you count the strike shortened season of 1994, it wasnt until 4 years later. It is going to be 2014 before anyone can judge where the Mets stand.
Whine all you want these are the facts.
Montero was brought in by DePodesta not Omar. The Wilpons not spending on the draft is why we’ve only hit on one draftpick (Wright) and two IFA’s (Reyes, Alfonzo) since Cashens regime. But hey we’re supposed to do cartwheels and act like the last 20 years of ineptitude didn’t exist because of the Duda’s, Murphy’s, Tholes of the world and because we got Ike, Niese and Harvey’s potential although people act like they’ve already won 3 Cy Youngs and 2 MVP’s between them. Sandy has destroyed a once proud franchise rich in sporatic playoff appearances and near misses. God how I miss those days
Met Maniac……
How could you possibly evaluate the 2012 draft at this point in time….LMFAO at this absurdity!
If you’re so interested with track record in the draft, can you please regale us with the wonderful track record of Paul DePodesta? Being the draft is so obviously important to you, tell us why you believe things are so much better now?
Omar cost you two picks, Sandy last year cost you 20!
Where would you have put those 20?
Instead of those 20 picks he signed 34 IFA’s.
I’ll say this for your post Rob. It is clear you put a lot of effort into pouring your thoughts & feelings into this post and it shows cause you have done about as good a job I have yet to have read in doing so. So on that I say congrats on a well written post.
I can’t say I share your feelings with some of what you wrote cause from my perspective I can’t look at the 1st 2 years without recognizing the events surrounding it as well so that is one of the reasons I imagine I am not where your at as far as this post is concerned. That’s not to say I may not get there at some point in the near future but that is something that for now just remains to be seen.
Anyway just want to say that you really did a good job as far as getting your thoughts & feelings across and I hope that at this time next year you will have reason to feel more positive about the Mets as I can imagine all Mets fans do.
Thanks Mr NJ. I appreciate the feedback and yes, even the questioning.
Believe me, I hope I’m wrong. I’d LOVE to see us improve.
Do I expect a championship in 2013? 2014? Even 2015? NO, I really dont.
But I think like most Mets fans, I’d be happy to even have a reason to root until late September. I’m just asking for some improvement and something we can pin our hopes to.
My point that I was (trying to) make was yea, Minaya never got us that title either–but at least we had hope. The future seemed brighter.
Now, do we really have any hope? Not really. I just “HOPE” I’m wrong.
The saber vs. scouting debate is getting to be very much like a political debate. Both sides refusing to listen to the other. The truth of course is that both have their place in the game. Unfortunately it is difficult to have a grown up conversation about them.
Tough right now to compare Sandy and Omar. Omar inherited a team with 2 great young stars and money to spend. Sandy inherited a complete mess, on the field, and financially. Also, Omar’s job was to put a winning team on the field. Sandy’s job was to cut payroll while making it not seem like the Mets were, and put a winning team on the field. So while both men held the title of G.M., their job responsibilities were a bit different.
>Tough right now to compare Sandy and Omar. Omar inherited a team with 2 great young stars >and money to spend.
This is BS
Omar inherited a team that had a SS playing 2B so that the free-agent bust Matsui can play SS
1B – empty
C – a fading Piazza
SP – nothing there
Relievers – nothing there
RF – nothing there
LF – an injured Cliff Floyd
CF – Mike Cameron
Minor leagues – our top 3 prospects were Aaron Heilman, Lastings Milledge and Phil Humber
Omar not only got us young talent in the minors, he did it with 1 hand tied behind his back.
The Mets were ranked 3rd to last in draft spending
Omar on his WORST DAY is better than Sandy
Now that is a laugh. Alderson built a championship team and one with a number of WS appearances.
What has Omar done? As GM of the Mets gotten one lousy playoff appearance. What did he do before that? Presided over one of the worst trades in the last 25 years or did you forget the Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, and Lee Stevens for Bartolo Colon deal? That was a fabulous trade…for the Indians. In addition to these guys, he traded away Jason Bay, Chris Young, and Carl Pavano, all in their youth, who had a number of All Star appearances.
And you people complain about the Pagan deal. Look up the facts.
Well said.
“The saber vs. scouting debate is getting to be very much like a political debate.”
There is no debate. they are both components to building an organization. the only people who make it a debate are desperate for something to yell at people over so they feel superior about something.
A friend of mine is a big supporter of Sandy Alderson because he looks at the Mets beforehand as being short-sighted, sacrificing long-term success by going for the quick, temporary fix. By always going after the quick fix he contends we were not building a team that could be competitive for many years to come by not giving our young players the opportunity to break into the lineup. Had Omar still been in charge we would not be seeing the likes of Davis, Tejada, Neise, Gee, Harvey and others but rather players from the outside that could only bring us a short-lived run for a championship.
His contention is that even if the Mets had the money, Sandy is doing the right thing. He believes the Mets were just hanging around in 2011 and were right to sacrifice an outside chance they could make the playoffs with the opportunity to acquire a Zack Wheeler. He believes the Mets are in better shape now than they were when Sandy took over because they are now concentrating on young players. He has stated he will always trade an aging veteran for a highly regarded prospect or younger major leaguer for in the long term that is always going to help the team sustain itself.
He saw the Mets burned during the nineties and again between 2001 and 2004 , each year trying to patch together a competitive ball club with hopes that a Zeile, Vaughan , Alomar, Bonilla, etc. could give us one or two more solid years without looking beyond that. I mentioned to him that those acquisitions were made out of poor judgement with the knowledge that we also did not have the minor league talent to take over those positions. The methodology was not wrong as it was just not going after the right type of players. I have mentioned to him more than a few times that he is letting his own ideas and past frustrations blind him to the fact that Sandy Alderson is only giving him lip service.
Hi Joey,
I never saw such a good presentation of the counter-point of view. You say your “friend”. But it is typed as if “your friend” used your name. I agree with “your friend”. But have stated this numerous times:
The Buck stops here_______________________> The Owners
As for your point at the very end Sandy does indeed do lip service as a new car dealer salesman trying to sell you undercoating, extended warranthy etc, as he was instructed by the dealership. This franchise under the current owners never had honest talking points even under Omar’s days.
Hi Hotstreak,
Indeed, it is a friend of mine who does not post on MMO. We’ve known each other for about ten years as part of a Met cyber group and we both spoke at the 50th anniversary celebration hosted by Hofstra last April.
I tell him he is right that the moves often made over the past 20 years often was putting together a patchwork of overpaid veterans in hopes of quickly getting a winning club instead of going through the building process and allowing the team to go through one or two losing seasons while taking it’s baby steps. But though those might have been the correct moves to make during most of the nineties and about ten years, going through a complete rebuilding process was not applicable to the team which Sandy Alderson took over two years ago.
Because we got burned too often before the Omar era he, like many of us, got fed up with continuing parade of over the hill players that were supposed to put us on par with the Yankees. We were taking things year by year and that got us nowhere. The difference, however, is that he is unable to understand that we still had a good club and were building for tomorrow at the same time so the moves he would have liked to have seen back then were no longer necessary today. Sandy came in and said the things he wanted to hear and that’s all that mattered.
Hi Joey,
The smallest success is better than grandoise promises. Everybody know this is a results oriented businelss. It is not SABER results it is winning. To win in baseball there is amateur draft, international draft, conditioning and player development: This takes scouts, coaching and managing at the field level and GM level. FA including own are signed based on short and long range plans. PR counts too and honest and trust with season ticket holders, fans and the media where It tdoes not comprise negotiations. Ownership is responsible to hire the people to accomplish this business plan.
If owerships plan is to survive then be honest. Say there is uncertainity with the Picard lawsuit. Say we have albatrose contracts. Say we are paying off bonds that funded Citi field. Say we put our money in SNY. Say we are over leveraged. Say we have to fill the roster with low budget payroll. However if the financial fiscal cliff if you allow me to sayt that, can’t correct the bad product within a reasonable time table then sell.
The owners survived, the bad contracts are coming off. The fanbase is mad. Ownership must build a team thru the farm system we can’t go back to the old ways of each year an expensive FA past his prime signed to appease the fans.
Remember Sandyis here just two years rife with financial chaos. Just last year was the Picard lawsuit.. If it were even three years w/o progress then the distain for SA would be justified. As others said he he is the so called moneyball guy who should be able to compete on a mid range payroll. The clock is ticking as we are evaluated by performance based on the business plan I written above which has to translate to winning on the field. Again this is a results business and lip service without performance in any job gets you fired.
Your friend is absolutely correct and the reason why he doesn’t see that we had a good club is because we did not have a good club. We had on paper good players that together did not form a good club. It was a mediocre club with high priced veterans and inexperienced youth not yet ready and an owner in trouble financially that couldn’t continue to incur those losses and keep that mediocre team full of high priced vetrans together. Your friend is absolutely 100% on the money.
“The difference, however, is that he is unable to understand that we still had a good club and were building for tomorrow at the same time so the moves he would have liked to have seen back then were no longer necessary today”
This is what MOST met fans are unable to grasp
Omar was doing a rebuild at the same time going for it all…at the same time…..
Nick Evans and Daniel Murphy were getting playing time DURING A PLAYOFF RUN in 2008…so for Met fans to say that Omar wouldnt be playing the kids in 2011/2012 is just straight denial
Bah…..I get what you’re saying, but I think Mets fans are on to Sandy’s game now. He’s doing nothing and he makes huge money doing it. This is a huge offseason for him because the team is getting worse and fans are not going to keep accepting the “wait until 2014″ horsecrap. Its one thing to preach patience and another to make no attempt to improve the ballclub incrementally.
Even when he does make moves, they fail spectacularly. His bullpen picks has been beyond awful. We have three GMs and they can’t pick free agent relievers better than the common fan could.
Mets fans are on to him because we’ve realized there is no “plan”. Building the farm is crap….they wouldn’t offer their second round pick slot money. The threw the pick intentionally. And this regime has consistently passed on higher upside picks that would cost more money to sign. (see: Kevin Plawecki instead of Joey Gallo)
Meanwhile the big league team gets worse and worse. Sandy made one great trade for Wheeler and has lived off Omar’s draft picks the rest of the time. cough…Harvey….cough
Rember the Picard lawsuit just last year.
You say Harvey I say Bay.
You say Dickey I say Santanna
I say Wheeler you say bullepen and getting nsxt to nothing for Reyes.
Sandy’s report card as competing is “D” for on the field.
In austerity times during the Madoff scandal and bad contracts that is the best you can do.
Think about this a 95 M payroll with 40M of it useless equals a 55 M payroll asked to compete in tough NL East.
Sandy the clock is ticking as you are past the survival mode.
Joey Gallo makes Daniel Murphy look like Brooks Robinson. He’s a disasterous defender.
Tye Dyed……
While your atricle on Omar’s legacy told no lies and was fact based, it was biased and only told the story from one side.
“I don’t want to start a debate about our GM’s”……You could have fooled me
“One ran the Mets as a team, the other as a business”
Guess what…it IS a busines and should be ran as such with the GM’s being RESPONSIBLE and held ACCOUNTABLE for their spending.
“Did Omar fail? Maybe, maybe not. But at least he tried”
Right on point again……yes he sure did try, and with a boatload of money I might add, money that this GM doesn’t have yet because of the foolish spending of the previous GM.
“Minaya spent winters bringing us guys like Delgado, Beltran, Pedro, Wagner”
Once again, he did this with an open checkbook, something that this GM doesn’t have right now.
“With 2 full-seasons under his belt, Alderson has watched our wins decrease both years”
Just typical growing pains of rebuilding…….the money wasn’t there to add to the existing core because it was spent by the previous GM with the “win now” and destroy the future mentality.
Its very, very simple what happened here. Omar conducted business much in the same manner as the government does and its corrupt politicians who know they can be voted out of office at the very next election. So what do they do? They do everything to make themselves look good immediately with a total disregard for the future and the next politician to step in their shoes. Problem with this mentality is that at some point the bubble has to burst.
Lets look at some of the Omar signings….Pedro Martinez, Wagner, Delgado, KRod, Santana to name a few. While we all were excited about these signings, one commonality between all of the players existed – - – their best years were clearly behind them. Now that wouldn’t be a problem if he were able to sign them for a year or two. But of course that wasn’t possible. So in order to get them he had to give them multi-year contracts, sacrifice the future and put a financial burden on the team that we’re still trying to dig out from. Almost like giving a child $10,000 and sending him to candy store. He buys all the candy he likes in total disregard of the ability to actually consume the candy. Resulting in inedible, stale candy that has to be pitched. Just like we’ve pitched Castillo, Ollie, KRod and Bay.
So to sum up your article – - – - YES Omar did try real hard. But it was all about the NOW and detrimental to building a team that would be consistently competetive like the Braves of the nineties. And I hope this isn’t construed as an indictment on Omar and kudos to Sandy……just trying to give the other side that the author conveniently left out, and illustrate the contrasting styles and different situations of the two GM’s under the microscope.
I would like to applaud the level of irony in this article and the following posts. SA and the owners lying is a problem and I am tired of it now for the meat. I find it extremely interesting that you compared the Giants to the Mets. The feeling of the piece suggests a longing for the Omar style of team management yet the comparisons to the Giants suggest building within is actually the answer. Everyone jumped on the Sandy sux wagon quickly enough without reading into the post. The Giants had a swelling payroll with aging players when Sabean began his reconstruction. One could say the same about our Mets. One could also see how The Mets have followed a similar path in developing Ike (Sandoval), Harvey (Cain), Hopefully Wheeler (Lincecum). I don’t remember the Giants signing high priced stars to fill their needs they seemed to just get the right guy to fill the right hole. I doubt Sandy has the ability to accomplish this but it is funny how the Mets path seems to more closely follow the Giants and yet everyone just immediately bit on to the sentimental aspect of the piece. Great job Manno.
Metswatchman: Excellent post. You remind me of Paul Harvey ‘s famous sign off: “Now you heard the rest of the story.”
Rob, I see that after two years and two months, your frustration and skepticism as reached full blossom.
The problem I have with Alderson is that he seems ill-equipped to operate in the same arena with all these younger and more progressive GM’s we now have.
He also seems widely incapable of doing two things at once. That is building while contending at the same time.
People ostracize Minaya for what he did to “win now” but they forget he was also “building” for the future.
Today we see the core of this team as Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Matt Harvey, Josh Edgin, Bobby Parnell, Daniel Murphy, and there are a few more on the way. These players didn’t magically appear under Alderson, they were the fruits from a farm system that had been barren for years. People choose to ignore that.
If you want to talk about Moneyball and finding undervalued assets, I dare Alderson to top R.A. Dickey. Dickey is the best undervalued asset this organization has ever signed. Ask Billy Beane.
Anything and everything that is still good with the Mets is all because of Minaya’s two fold plan of competing while building. You can delude yourself and say it’s not true, but that doesn’t change the evidence and the facts.
Minaya understood the market he was in. He knew that New York wanted to win at all costs, but Minaya was also a great scout and talent evaluator and while he spent Wilpon’s money he also planted many great crops down in the farm, the best of which have yet to arrive.
Competing and building simultaneously is a lost art, but in New York you need someone who can pull it off. Like Brian Cashman and like a former GM Frank Cashen. While Cashen rebuilt he was also spending money and trying to build a brand. He made George Foster the richest player in baseball, brought back Dave Kingman who was highly paid, traded for Keith Hernandez who was at the center of the Cocaine Wars that infested baseball at the time. But he also built the farm the way Minaya did.
Minaya inherited a farm whose top ten prospects were:
1. Lastings Milledge, of
2. Yusmeiro Petit, rhp
3. Gaby Hernandez, rhp
4. Ian Bladergroen, 1b
5. Ambiorix Concepcion, of
6. Alay Soler, rhp
7. Shawn Bowman, 3b
8. Victor Diaz, of
9. Jesus Flores, c
10. Matt Lindstrom, rhp
I think I’ll stop here.
I agree some of this, but in no way did Omar minaya make the farm system better. How was he building for the future?
Niese, Davis, Tejada, Murph, Harvey, Kirk, ect. aren’t better than the players Joe D just listed?
He made the farm system better than what he inherited and any success this current post-Minaya team has experienced is due to the players drafted under Omar Minaya and nothing else. In fact, the future of this team is mostly comprised of Omar’s players.
That needs no explanation. It’s plain to see.
If you dont believe Minaya made the farm system better I can only assume you weren’t paying attention the last 20 years, or that you are younger than 21. Which one is it?
Ok guys fine, he made the farm system better but it still sucked. Listing 4 players who happened to work out doesn’t represent the quality of the whole system. The depth was still non-existent.
As Billy Beane said, if one out of every 100 players you draft become a productive major leaguer, you have done a supreme job.
I don’t know about the exact number, but a very low percentage of draft picks and IFA’s go on to become productive major leaguers. So, if you do have a number of quality players that come up through your system, you certainly didn’t “suck”.
And if we want to talk about depth, the Mets twice last year had an entire lineup of all homegrown players. I think that shows pretty good depth.
Then according to you joe d. If Alderson has one player in 100 ( don’t think he has drafted 100 yet) have an impact on the ML club he is successful. Guess we won’t know that for a couple more years then.
I know right? If only he drafted a Giancarlo Stanton along with Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, Matt Harvey, Jon Niese, Wilmer Flores, Lucas Duda – then things would have been perfect.
DAMN HIM for not having the greatest drafts of all time!
That would have been impossible. Stanton was drafted in the second round. Florida had pick # 12 and the Mets # 29. But they lost their first round pick to the Giants for singing Alou.
No we could’ve drafted Stanton. We had 2 supplemental picks, 1 was Kunz the other was Nat Vineyard. The Mets picked again with the next pick after Stanton and took Scott Moviel 1 pick in front of Freddie Freeman. We could’ve had both actually.
Joe I see the point but man I didn’t like Omar’s latter years. He was completely reactionary always one step behind the teams needs. Our rotation was a mess year in and year out. I don’t like how SA didn’t bolster the team this year and I despise the double talk that he spews. Both GM’s have been unacceptable. Omar’s saving grace was he left behind some great talent in Niese, Tejada, Ike. So maybe he would have turned it around if he was given a longer reach but I kinda doubt it. He really made some cruddy trades and the development of Pelfrey, Humber, Gomez could be indicative of a poor minor league system. SA has done very little except let contracts expire so he isn’t high on my list either. I do hope for some constancy in the FO and am willing to give some more time to see how SA acts when he does have the resources to spend.
I didn’t like Minaya’s 2009 and 2010 season either. I’m glad they fired him. I was pissed off at the situation. We needed a new perspective. But as far as the strategy and philosophy goes, I didn’t really want that to change. I wish they would have promoted John Ricco instead. A great finance man and negotiator in his own right, but also a baseball man. That’s why Sandy kept him.
Ricco would have been a great choice. Well maybe LOL I guess we will never know.
Do you still wish they would sign veteran ballplayers to huge multi-year contracts when they may have 1, maybe 2 good years left????
It sounds like we will be doing exactly that with David Wright. He’s about to get a deal worth more than Bay, Castillo, Perez and K-Rod combined.
Well then you should be happy because you didn’t want the philosophy or strategy to change. Honestly I hope it doesn’t happen because I don’t want to see the mistakes of the past.
I’m not happy because I don’t see Wright as a win-now player, sorry to say. And he certainly isn’t an undervalued asset either.
Also, if you read my posts on this site, you would know I want to trade Wright, but that Alderson will give him the biggest contract in Mets history which completely goes against everything people applauded Alderson for. He is about to top any bad contract Minaya ever dished out. Paying Wright $18MM+ till age 38 is a disaster.
I totally agree…….but are you saying that if the veteran player CAN be considered a “win now” guy, then its OK to give him a multi-year contract and just eat the back nine of the contract and saddle the team with an albatross?
Joe, lets wait till the figures are in. He may end up with less years. I agree that Wright is overvalued but his value to the organization, right now, is ridiculously high. Wright may be more of a win now than we think. He may become a legit 3 hole hitter. I know the peak age BS but as we seen with Chipper, nothing is automatic. If Wright can level out his game and get back to .320 w/ 20 HR’s then he would be worth the money IMO. He could also produce well into his 30′s, his back may become an issue but his wrists and legs have always been healthy and the legs are so important to an aging player. I’m holding judgement for now but am for signing Wright unless the contract demands are out of hand.
Joe D……I’ll make an analogy with another sport on this failed “win now” mentality. In hockey, the NY Rangers have employed this strategy forever and since 1934. Signing the the over the hill veterans every year to try and “win now”. It worked once with Mark Messier. Those are not good odds.
Hi Joe,
Actually, prior to the 2009 season the Mets were favored by many to win it all – thanks to Omar’s revamping of the bullpen not just with signing KRod but trading for two who were then deemed good commodities – Putz and Green. They didn’t work out but at the time, iI don’t recall many Met fans complaining. What they did begin complaining about was Citi Field with it’s dimensions, gimmicks and blocked views.
What I always found interesting about those moves is that they came at the time the Madoff scandal was unraveling and the Wilpons being hit with cold water with their finances suddenly turned upside down.
Surprising that they didn’t hit the brakes right then and there for it was in 2010 that we started to see Omar forced into making Sandy Alderson-type moves with Baharass behind the plate, Mike Jacobs taking over at first and Gary Matthews, Jr. to help resolve our outfield problems. Of course, he also signed Jason Bay but some wondered why he passed up bidding on more expensive but more needed starting pitchers (his plan “A”). Many of us thought it was a sign of the Wilpons being in a bad financial mess. As the Mets continued fighting Atlanta for first going into the all-star break, many of us questioned why Omar wasn’t getting us any help. That only helped further the conclusion that Fred and Jeff were hit much, much harder than they were letting on.
So in one sense, we can’t hold Sandy Alderson responsible for continued signing of “inexpensive” players like Omar did and even having to salary dump – the handwriting was on the wall in 2010.
But we can hold Sandy responsible for being part of the big public deception and helping to foster the deception that his “vision” was to re-build an aging and mediocre club and to now focus on a future that could very well lead to many years of competitive baseball. That was not his goal at all – and I suspect – even his concern. His focus was on keeping the BUSINESS from going bankrupt forcing the Wilpons to sell.
Had the Wilpons not been hit by Madoff stripping them of a half billion dollars in capital and dividends that averaged 16 percent annually, had not out-priced the fan base causing less revenue from less fans and the lowering of ticket prices, and not had taken out three loans (one to buy the remaining shares of the Mets from Doubleday, another to create SNY and the third to build Citi Field) the bloated payroll would not have come into question other than the concern of if the players we had were producing. So putting money aside and looking at it in terms of baseball, would we have been worse off now – and our future placed in jeopardy – if we still tried to retain an outfield that included Pagan and a re-signed Beltran, Reyes at short, KRod in the pen and good relievers acquired from outside the organization along with Davis, Murphy, Dickey, Gee, Niese, Wright and a bench that included Tejada, Turner, Kirk, Hairston, Duda (both probably would have become our platoon in left with Bay being that bust). Would all this not be enough to negate obtaining a Zack Wheeler, no matter what his potential is? I don’t think so.
So when Sandy acquired those players on the list you provided many of us then confirmed the Mets had no money to spend and were just trying to field as inexpensive a team it could.
Yet we heard so many that we later found were supporters of saber metrics and money ball (or simply just anti-Omar) that we were going to be surprised because Sandy has the ability to see things in players that other general manages could not and that we were going to be surprised and appreciate the players he obtained because they were overlooked by others because they were both undervalued in their talent and financial market status . Great things were going to happen now along with the rebuilding that was going to sustain that success in the future.
That was justification enough to sign players who were just as old as those signed by Omar but the difference was that they were less expensive and were not long-term in commitment and thus Sandy was going to keep us competitive now while these players would not hinder our future both by length of contractual obligations and using less money to sign them which enabled us to concentrate economically more on the future – which Omar supposedly did not.
Perhaps we wouldn’t even be talking much about Sandy Alderson had he not been ushered in on this gigantic wave of publicity. All we heard was he being the architect of those great Oakland teams and a genius based on saber metric analysis spun by the Wilpons and a very vocal contingent of fans that believed in what we can now say was myth. We now understand that Sandy does not understand the game professionally and was no architect of those great Oakland clubs which included those outstanding draft pick selections.
As it is, we know these moves were made just to downsize and keep the Wilpons from going under and having to sell the club. Yet there are some who believe what has happened is a well thought out plan that is best for the team.
Here we go again. Um yes he does understand the game profesionally, a lot more than anybody reading a blog does and yes he was the architect of those Oakland teams. Sorry to disappoint you but it’s a fact.
“I dare Alderson to top R.A. Dickey”
Hell dare him to top Paul LoDuca, Jose Valentin, and Xavier Nady
I dare any GM to to Dickey…….you cherry picked the one in a million.
To top…….
Does trading for Beltran and Pagan say build from within to you?
How about the trade for Cabrera?
Mota, Theriot and Pence….Were they home grown too?
Vogelsong, Zito were not home grown either….
So I don’t get where you think they are an example of Homegrown success and whats REALLY different is you don’t see them trading away their best homegrowns to fill “MANY HOLES” as is being suggested to do here, do you?
The Giants developed a core of players (Cain, Lincecum, Sandoval, Posey) and then built around that core with, as they were called in 2010, “cast-offs and misfits.” Are guys like Hunter Pence, Aubrey Huff, Freddy Sanchez, Marco Scutaro and yes, Angel Pagan “world champions”? No. But to use a line from Stallone in ‘Rocky’, they fill gaps. Sabean, like Cashman, fills gaps and puts together a winner. The “cast-offs and misfits” Alderson gets are just that and only that: Cast-offs.
We, too, had a core: Reyes, Wright, Johan, Dickey. But Alderson didn’t resign Reyes and probably wont resign DW or Dickey.
Changing GM’s every 3-4 years doesn’t help the long term goal. That’s why I pointed out we’ve had 5 GM’s during the time Sabean’s been the Giants GM. 3 managers in Bochy’s time—and I’m sure Terry Collins will be gone before Bochy, so that makes 4. The Giants also have Dave Righetti—we have Dan freakin’ Warthen.
Also, do you see anyone that Alderson has signed that will bring us the success of a Cain or Lincecum? Or Sandoval? Or Posey? Or Bumgarner? I don’t.
We are all excited about Zack Wheeler. I hope he comes through but since the Giants FO seems to know about pitching, think they’d let him go?
I love how CORE seems to translate to two pitchers and two regulars but how it never seems to apply to:
Ike Davis
Reuben Tejada
David Wright
Jose Reyes
Matt Harvey
John Niese
They have cores but we don’t…..
To me, the jury has been out on Sandy Alderson, as General Manager of the Mets. Speaking at a “Building a Winning Team” at a sports symposium, with others in the sports business, Alderson said “You have to divorce the interest of the institution from your personal interest, and sometimes it’s difficult to do that.”
Baloney. I think Tim McGraw sucks as a singer but I’d be just as excited for the audience for his new single or a concert as someone I did like.
Alderson added: “It can be extraordinarily difficult sometimes. From my standpoint, it’s about the long-term interest of the franchise. That doesn’t mean that everything is decided in terms of the longer view. What may be in the best long-term interest of the franchise is to go out today and do something dramatic and make every attempt to win today, to build the brand, to re-establish the brand, to sort of re-establish the legitimacy of a franchise.”
Said like a true politician. No meat and potatoes, just fat. Blah blah blah. Alderson sucks.
As always, I will begin my post by making a statement: I HAVE NO FEELINGS REGARDING THE ALDERSON REGIME AT THIS POINT IN TIME, EITHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. IF YOU ASSUME FROM WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY THAT I DO, YOU ARE WRONG.
It’s a bit sad that one must say that with such emphasis in order to hope that the community here won’t viciously attack him (I shudder to think how people here would react if somebody admitted to actually liking the guy), but such is the case. Anywho…
If you dislike Alderson’s methods and philosophies, that’s fine. Personally, I’m waiting to see how it all turns out (i.e. whether or not he is able to build a team that will consistently compete year in and year out) before I judge him (because again, I HAVE NO FEELINGS REGARDING THE ALDERSON REGIME AT THIS POINT IN TIME, EITHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE). But I won’t spend much time arguing about how good a GM he is or isn’t. The one thing that doesn’t make any sense to me is to say that Alderson isn’t trying. That just isn’t fair to him. You really don’t think that he’s doing what he believes is in the organization’s best interest, while also taking into consideration the limitations that have been put on him by the Wilpons? Again, it’s fine to disagree with how he goes about building a team. But acknowledge the situation for what it is; don’t act like he doesn’t care about how the team does and just isn’t trying. That’s just a personal insult to him, and he doesn’t deserve that no matter how much you may hate his philosophies.
One more time, just to be safe: I HAVE NO FEELINGS REGARDING THE ALDERSON REGIME AT THIS POINT IN TIME, EITHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. IF YOU ASSUME FROM WHAT I HAVE SAID THAT I DO, YOU ARE WRONG (and pretty damn crazy, given the fact that I’ve said this three times now).
Ok try it another way…..
A Batter hits .210 first two years you get him….
Then in his third year hits .300
Which performance is the most prevalent?
The .300 which could be just a fluke or the two years he hit for crap?
You going to judge him based on that career year or the other two years he plain out sucked?
Then tell me how the GM should be judged much differently….
That analogy has absolutely nothing to do with the main point of my post.
Superhero…….when I read responses here like you just received from Metsie, I shake my head and LMAO. There are a handful of posters and writers here on MMO that don’t have the ability to reason and cannot write anything objectively. The original article, while being fact based, was very subjective and only told one side of the story. Yes they are the haters. The haters that have already played judge and jury on Alderson and have convicted him after only 2 years. Heck, some convicted him the day he was hired. Then the same ones start posting about how Minaya’s drafts and acquisitions are still surfacing and helping the team after how many years? They can’t even see the self proclaiming contradiction there. Then there are the outright thugs here that lodge personal assaults on the persons they don’t like, lacking the ability of keeping this to baseball and only baseball. Just want to say you were very kind to preface your post the way you did.
There are a handful of posters and writers here on MMO that don’t have the ability to reason and cannot write anything objectively.
So why do you come here, what does that make you?
The original article, while being fact based, was very subjective and only told one side of the story.
Most blogs always tell one side of the story, if you want fair and balanced reporting go to FOX News, I’ve heard rumors that they tell both sides of a story.
Yes they are the haters. The haters that have already played judge and jury on Alderson and have convicted him after only 2 years.
I don’t see any handcuffs on Alderson, and just because one disagrees with you doesn’t give you the right to judge them and call them haters.
You, sir, are a hypocrite.
The people who flew planes into the world trade center are haters. People criticizing GMs of a baseball teams are just fans sharing opinions. You probably shouldn’t be handling sharp objects.
By the way how many years does it require you to render an opinion about anything baseball related? Five, six? Hopefully you are not in capacity where people would have to rely on you for thinking quickly.
I simply detest posters who criticize writers and do so by engaging in the same behavior they say allegedly hate. These are the ones that don’t understand the first amendment right of our Constitution and a few others rights as well.
There are biased sites you can go to where everything is to your taste. This site happens to post all opinions whether you agree or disagree, so show a little respect for the one site that holds to our democratic principles and shares the opinions of all Met fans and not just a small segment of them.
Better yet, submit a post and express your worldly intellect for all to see and then see if you have the measure of a man to withstand your critics.
When a poster at MMO feels the need to preface his post in CAPS the way Superhero did and then go on to say:
“It’s a bit sad that one must say that with such emphasis in order to hope that the community here won’t viciously attack him (I shudder to think how people here would react if somebody admitted to actually liking the guy), but such is the case”
I think it just validates everything I said in my comment.
We use CAPS to get through the thick skulls of lemmings like you who just follow the leader off the cliff and don’t ever excersize your own god given ability to think for yourself!
He went off the cliff so it must be ok!
Whats next do you blow yourself up to make a safe path for him?
You know like a suicide bomber who blows himself up while the real terrorist sits safe at home and just watches on TV how well idiots can do and support his cause because they drank the koolaid he served them?
UH OH!
I dont know who Superhero is, I’m sure you dont as well. If your comment was incited all because he used caps to emphasize part of his comment, you are seriously overreacting.
The fact of the matter is that you dragged writers from this site into your rant. Writers who never provoked you or called you names.
You needlessly characterized them as haters too.
Have you seen this person Tie Dyed’s archives? Have you seen the excellence of his work here?
Or was the comment intended for the owner of this site Joe D., a veteran who served his country and is a real superhero, and someone who dedicates his life so that Met fans would have a thriving community to exchange opinions freely and openly. You think it’s easy to maintain a site like this?
Why did you drag them into your one-man crusade? Have either of them ever attacked you? That’s what really got my goat.
Personally I don’t care what your opinion is or what you think of some of the others who comment in this community. What compelled me more than anything else to leave you a comment, was that you included the writers here under the cloak of them being haters and you somehow you were not.
The only thing you validated is that you are no better than those you castigated, and that your behavior may have been even worse for attacking people who never said an ill word to you. You owe them an apology.
OK Seligman….Truce! Yes, I don’t know Superhero and I’m sure you don’t either. But have you seen my posts prior to today? I’ve been very civil and tried my best to hold back on all the prejudiced posters here who have indicted Alderson and resorted to the name calling of people that disagree with them. I don’t hold any allegiance to Alderson but heck, all I say is give this guy a chance. Did Superhero just put me over the edge today, YES. He truly expressed everything I’ve been feeling here and espressed it so eloquently I just had to go with it.
In reading over the entie exchange we had, I’d have to say that yes I’m am guilty of one thing, and that is stooping to the level of the haters. But you my friend, calling me a hypocrite, you are just as guilty as me. You are guilty of castigating me for expressing my first amendment rights. Look, I have not been posting here long enough to know who are the writers and who are just the commentaters.You are obviously a writer who is admirably defending another writer. And I don’t have a problem with that. But what’s obvious to me is that you would never attack another poster for the same behavior that I displayed today if they agreed with you. And if I’m wrong…..let me see it. I’m be watching.
One more thing, Jessup who I believe is another writer here has been taking a beating here lately. Why don’t you come to his defense?
Well pretty much because he’s indefensible! LOL
Just kidding but I really couldn’t resist!
Because he seems to defend himself quite well, and I believe is the only MMO writer who seems to enjoy flaming with these people. He is completely engaged in these threads as I’m sure you know. The other writers here ignore the bad things said about them, including this writer, who you called a hater, as well as the owner of this site.
Hi Seligman….thanks for responding.
Let me start by first clarifying the lie you just portrayed. I did not call you, or the owner of the site haters. I’ll repeat in caps, I DID NOT CALL YOU OR THE OWNER OF THE SITE HATERS. How DARE you make that allegation? Truth be told, prior to my post yesterday I didn’t even know who you were, let alone who the owner of the site was. Your allegation was just mere conjecture on how YOU percieved a vague statement I made about haters, without identifying or pointing a finger at anyone other than perhaps the writer of the article I was commenting on. How DARE you try to besmirch me with this lie while you yourself stooped to the same level of name calling. Who appointed you to police this site? Or are you the self appointed defender of all who agree with you. If thats the case, I would chew you up and spit you out in a court of law based on what you’re able to present to prove your allegations. You should be ashamed of yourself. You my friend are totally out of control and took this way too far. I am done……I’m going back to baseball, where I choose channel all my energies instead of defending myself from your lies.
Uh what? Have you seen them call the reasonable people a certain name that I’m not allowed to mention, and mouth off at everybody who doesn’t automatically reject Sandy Alderson? Of course they deserve to be judged and called haters.
It’s not what others say that define you. We define ourselves by our words and our behaviors. Many have tried to reason with Bayonne and all have failed. That makes him unreasonable. If you consider yourself to be a man of reason, than why would you let the words of an unreasonable person have such an abhorrent effect on you. You cant call someone a hater if you are in the act of hating on them. Maybe that concept is hard to fathom, but it’s veracity still stands.
My issue was more because the other person called out the writer who did nothing wrong. He called nobody here names. He simply posted a well articulated piece on what he believes as a Mets fan.
Hypocrisy is quite common on this site and if more people simply practiced what they preach it would be a better experience for us all. If you dont like Bayonne’s behavior just as I do, then simply ignore him as I do.
i agree with ignoring him( which I do most of the time) but you’re taking all of this too seriously if you think calling someone a hater is abbhorrent. I don’t think anybody on here actually hates another poster, it’s just Internet tough guy syndrome.
Well what really is the difference in “SERIOUS” between the words Hater and …You Know…
I mean REALLY is the one that is banned REALLY any worse than the one you like to use?
Your word is innocent but Alex’s word was Evil Incarnate?
Maybe we SHOULD be taking these names a little more seriously so that they would stop being used at all!
Moral of the story is if you don’t want to be labeled something the best way is to not start labeling anyone else in the first place!
I don’t think anybody on here actually hates another poster”
You’re wrong on that one…
Excuse me but people have been called haters LONG BEFORE the $LRP was ever used or banned!
Funny isn’t it how one name is allowed to be used while the other is banned and will put any use of it into moderation!
Your right the guy you keep waiting to see what he does hasn’t done anthing good yet!
In my analogy he did already!
Point you seem to have missed is you keep waiting to see what will happen with Sandy after this year yet even if they do something good does it really offset the crap he did the last two years?
Can you trust the results of a guy who hit .300 one year in three more than the guy who hit .300 Three years in a row and then hit .200 one year out of 4?
If he needs more than 3 season to get to the playoffs then he will never get there!
Aaaaaand you still don’t understand the point I was making.
No the issue here is you are missing mine….
How many years does it take before you realize all the waiting in the world won’t change a thing about how he operates?
He has had two tests so far and failed both!
He is currently taking his third test and how GOOD does he have to do on THIS test to nullify the other two?
If he has ONE good test do you ignore the other two completly and say he knows what he is doing?
What if that one good test is the outliar and the other two is what you can expect from him in most years?
You want to give him another year thats fine that seemed to be your ONLY point…
I’m saying for every year of crappy GMing you will have to sit through 5 years of suck trying to reverse the damage he has done while you were waiting to see if a two time failure could get it right the third time around so you could dismiss them on what could just be a fluke!
Hi Superhero,
But you have to take into account what those interests are. Sandy is a businessman who happens to work for baseball franchise. He still looks at the Mets as a business with an obligation to the Wilpons, Katz and minority owners to turn in as maximum a profit he could.
Of course he knows one way to achieve that during is to produce a product (team) that consumers (fans) would buy (purchase tickets) but he also knows that being in the public limelight another way to bring in revenue is to make a product appear to be one that it isn’t – which then also serves his obligations to the owners.
If he was a baseball man, he would not be the one in charge of the finances. My belief is that he looks first in terms of a business and finances and then from there what the various options are for the team under his economic guidelines. Wouldn’t the more prudent method be to have baseball people – not Sandy – evaluate the team and figure out the various scenarios and then bring those to the one in charge of finances (Sandy) to determine which ones fit in the fiscal landscape?
I thought that’s what JP and Depo were getting paid so handsomely for.
There are generally two main ways to build a good team:
# 1 Spend a ton of money on the top available players and hope for the best -it’s what you call a quick fix. Sometimes it works, often it doesn’t.
# 2 Build a team from within – depending on what you inherit, the process takes at least 3 to 5 years. Sonetimes it works, often it doesn’t.
Looking back at Omar Minaya, he did well early in his tenure going with # 1 but poorly in terms of # 2. During the latter part of His tenure, he did poorly with # 1 and a lot better with # 2. Overall, he did a solid job. Nothing special.
With Alderson, #1 hasn’t been an option so far. Regardless of what he believes or doesn’t the main concern has been the cash flow of the ownership group which apparenty has worked out. As for # 2, it’s too early to tell. Maybe Zach Wheeler, Brandon Nimmo, Michael Fulmer, Rafael Montero and Gavin Cecchini are key parts of a Mets playoff team in 2016. Maybe they won’t be.
Thank god this site didn’t exist in 1982 – or Frank Cashen would have been bashed out of town long before 1984…
I don’t think so,
Nice name by the way. I think the 2 situations are different. Cashman took over a team that 7 years removed from it’s last post season appearance and was really bad for several years already. And I don’t remember anything related to not trying his best to win, PPPA, and him worrying about walks, and all of that. He said it would take 5 years (i think) but back then you knew the team always tried to compete. According to what i found on the web look at his first few moves:
Dec. 12, 1980 — Traded Roy Lee Jackson to the Blue Jays for Bob Bailor.
Dec. 15, 1980 — Traded John Pacella and Jose Moreno to the Padres for Randy Jones.
Feb. 28, 1981 — Traded Steve Henderson and cash to the Cubs for Dave Kingman.
In-season Trades:
May 29, 1981 — Traded Jeff Reardon and Dan Norman to the Expos for Ellis Valentine.
Key Draft Picks:
Drafted Lenny Dykstra in the 13th round of the 1981 amateur draft.
Signed Kevin Mitchell as an amateur free agent.
Then next season:
Off-season Trades:
Feb. 10, 1982 — Traded Alex Trevino, Jim Kern, and Greg Harris to the Reds for George Foster.
April 1, 1982 — Traded Lee Mazzilli to the Rangers for Ron Darling and Walt Terrell.
In-season Trades:
Aug. 4, 1982 — Traded Joel Youngblood to the Expos for Tom Gorman.
Sep. 10, 1982 — Traded Tom Hausman to the Braves for Carlos Diaz.
Key Draft Picks:
Drafted Dwight Gooden in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1982 amateur draft.
Drafted Randy Myers in the 1st round (9th pick) of the 1982 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).
Drafted Floyd Youmans in the 2nd round of the 1982 amateur draft.
Drafted Roger McDowell in the 3rd round of the 1982 amateur draft.
Then 1983 came and we know what the best move of that season was.
So there is really no comparison between the 2 situations. Frank Cashen was a man on the move right from the get-go and you can actually see roster improvement at all levels right away as he tried to build the team back to respectability and did it.
That’s not the case with Alderson. He’s tearing things apart (i think he would have gotten rid of Beltran whether the Wilpons were broke or not), doing nothing, making no meaningful moves and any moves he makes outside of backup bench players are backfiring. He’s basically sitting there until his minor leagues come around and that’s supposed to be the change. And that’s supposed to guarantee the Mets will be back in the postseason. Really?
And I guess he expects New York City to sit around patiently and have no problem paying top dollar to come see a team that the GM is doing nothing to make the fan base proud of while he allegedly tries to build the team back to respectability.
I have to disagree man but there’s no comparison between the 2 situations or the 2 GMs.
My point is if his situation were today we’d be seeing the actual progress being made and I really don’t think there would be the complaining going on like we see now.
How can you say that? How could this situation have possibly mirrored the same situation Cashen had? With the Madoff disaster putting the owners on the brink of bankruptcy and the contracts of dead wood, unproductive players being inherited. A little different my friend. Like apples and oranges.
No, because Strawberry, Gooden, Darling, Dykstra, Myers & Co. weren´t anywhere near the major leagues yet.
The MLB team was losing 90+ games in 1982 and the acquisitions at the major league level (essentially smear lipstick on a pig) hadn´t worked out.
The situation now is pretty similar.
The farm system is improving – though we´re still only 2 drafts and IFA periods into this tenure and due to financial limitations the Mets have only made small scale moves at the major league level which largely haven´t had much of a positive (or negative) impact.
See, this is what I’m talking about: it’s perfectly fine to disagree with Alderson’s belief in the importance of PPPA and walks or other things like that. But these are things that he believes makes a winning team, and he’s trying to build a club based around these beliefs. It’s fine to argue that he should be doing it another way, but to say that he isn’t trying is inaccurate. He is trying, you just don’t like the method by which he’s doing it. Support that argument instead of making some vague statements with no hard evidence to support them like that he doesn’t care about winning.
Hi Superhero,
But you are working on the assumption that he is not the M. Donald Grant type who looks at baseball as a business first and a sport second.
I do agree that he is sincere in his methodology but that his methodology itself is not that of a professional and while he is in this type of position of authority, his flawed and superficial understanding of the game is going to only drive the team into the ground – no matter the fiscal circumstance. One needs an individual with a real feel and understanding of the game to run the show, not a statistical analyst – even if that analyst wants to win as badly as George Steinbrenner!
And you’re not making any assumptions about him? It’s fine to have the opinion that his investment in sabermetrics is not in the club’s best interests, but the idea that he isn’t concerned about winning has no solid evidence to support itself.
Joey D……
But you are working on the assumption that he is not the M. Donald Grant type who looks at baseball as a business first and a sport second.
I hate to break this to you, but unfortunately it really is a business first. Of course to passionate fans like us that is very hard to accept, but it is reality. And that is exactly where this divide lies. Lets put it this way – - – if you were the owner and not the fan, what would it be to you, a business or a sport?
Hi Superhero and Watchman,
From the many interviews and reports and his own resume it is obvious that Sandy is deeply involved in matters financial and legal. I did not say he does not want to win but rather that his priority is to first keep the franchise solvent and then to do what he feels is best for improving the club second.
That is not an assumption. Remember, Sandy admitted to Mike Francesa that one cannot expect to win with the “inexpensive” type players he signed the past two seasons. If he did not expect to win with them, why did he sign them? He also traded his more expensive players who were helping the team surprise everyone in 2011 by pulling so close to the wildcard leader – after numerous times telling us from the time he was hired that reducing the payroll was his top priority. He also cut payroll for new ownership in Oakland after1995 and when he became CEO of San Diego ordered the same thing done by those underneath him.
So by his own words we know that Sandy understood the moves he was making were not going to help the club win. And by his own words he put priority on immediately cutting the payroll – not gradually – but immediately.
And I truly believe he understood what was required of him when urged to apply for the job by Bud Selig. Sandy was working with the Commissioner, privy to confidential information and is well educated and experienced in his field to have been able to conclude on his own that the Wilpons were in deep financial trouble just by reading between the lines in the newspaper articles.
Now we all understand baseball is a business and that owners are in the game to make money as well as wanting their club to win. Sandy was in the position knowing he couldn’t do both when accepting the position of GM and just two months ago Bud Selig said he urged Sandy to take the job specifically because the Wilpons were close to losing the team and that he helped them because they did not bring this upon themselves but were victims instead.
And if it he took the job with the understanding that nothing could be done at this time due to the fiscal reality – and that the only avenue to take was focusing on the future – then why dcut back on draft selection signings? It is one thing to downsize overhead and waste but another when downsizing the very lifeline of the vision one sees as being the team’w best road to take.
Even if you both disagree with me, I am sure you can understand the valid reasons and questions that made me and others come to the conclusions we have. Sandy is doing everything he could to do the job his employer’s hired him to do – keep them solvent enough so they do not have to sell majority ownership – with prodding, of course, by the commissioner who had to twice approve loans (one from MLB and the other from a private financial institution) because the Wilpons ran out of cash to even pay off their end of the month obligations.
Well duh. But I don’t see how this translates to blaming Sandy for the teams problems when it’s clearly the Wilpons fault. As long as the Wilpons don’t sell the team, having sandy to fix the financial situation so the mets can spend money in the future is the best way to go. It would be much better if the wilpon’s sell the team but whatever.
Did you know that he signed 34 international free agents this season, three times as many as the next highest club, so while he failed to sign 21 of 42 draftpicks in a very weak draft I might add, he did sign many more IFA’s than any other team so we did add as much or more amature players than any other team.,
Plus his 2011 draft was amazing.
Hi Fonzie,
Know there is a limit each team can spend in both the amateur and international free agent drafts. I have been unable to as yet find a source that can provide information on the total amount the Mets spent on that one compared to other teams (percentage wise as well as dollar amount) as well as those two drafts combined and how that compares to other teams as well. Do you have a link that can provide that?
Can understand your point about this year’s amateur draft pick being weak, but that still doesn’t explain why all other teams sans one signed more bottom 20 players than the Mets and why the Mets did not sign Stankawitz (75th in the nation) over an approximate $40,000 under slot money.
Maybe they liked the upside of the 34 IFA’s better than the 21 draftpicks that went unsigned. To me the only egregious error was not signing Stanky the 2nd rounder for slot money.
And what do you propose Alderson do, exactly? He can’t do anything that the Wilpons don’t approve of. Most of the moves he’s made have been about attempting to find value at a low price – like his protege does in Oakland these days – which is his only option at this point given his limitations. Obviously, several of his moves have not worked out to this point. But you still haven’t provided an iota of evidence that supports the theory that he isn’t trying to win; all you’ve proven is that he’s in a crappy situation and that he’s thus far struggled to produce results with that crappy situation.
I repect all your post. But if owning a team is a business ultimately you have to win to make a profit. If owning a team is a sport and your so rich it doesn’t matter, then you can develop a strong relationship with your players and their families. Make sure you have players like Wright and Dickey who are good guys and in Dickey’s case a rennaisance man play for your team. It not winning that matters its how you play the game. They can go on the caravan and hawk ticket sales. Character is great do not get me wrong. But by itself it does not bring in a profit. A samall exception is in team apparal and sports gear sales.
“But if owning a team is a business ultimately you have to win to make a profit”
Jeffrey Loria read that comment and laughed all the way to the bank.
As did the Tribune company.
And a whole bunch of other ownership groups in every sport.
His flawed and superficial understanding of the game didn’t drive Oakland into the ground it drove them to 3 straight WS appearances and one WS win and he’s not a statistical analyst he has people on his staff that are statistical analyst. Eric Walker was the analyst in Oakland not Alderson.
That is true only if one believes he was responsible for player moves in Oakland to begin with.
Hope your sister and her family has been able to begin getting their lives back after Sandy and that they are not suffering with post-traumatic stress from the ordeal which I am afraid, is going to catch up with a lot of victims once the initial shock is over.
Not sure why anybody wouldn’t believe that a GM and VP of baseball ops wouldn’t be responsible for player moves. Those moves were made with input from the entire staff just like every other team. My sister is doing well, her power is back and now the home renovations are taking place. Thanks for asking.
Hi Fonzie,
Glad to know that your sister’s house can be renovated after Sandy and that she is handling it OK.
On our disagreement, it all comes down to what responsibilities were handled by whom. I
A general manager can also act as the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) despite not having the title with the overall responsibility for managing both the revenue and cost elements of the team. It is an educated guess that Omar was not in charge of that area as he was player personnel. The reverse can be true of Sandy with Oakland, especially since there was a special assistant who reported not to the general manager but directly to the owner and was in charge of baseball matters.
If one looks at the New York Mets organizational hierarchy, there is no such position as a special assistant to the President or any executive who bypasses the general manager.
Not every team has the same titles for their baseball personnal. He was the VP of baseball operations as well as the GM. He would’ve remained the legal counsel had he only had to worry about the business end. I’ve already shown you that Rigney was a consultant and assistant to both Sandy and Eisenhardt and I’m not going over this again. It’s ridiculous to think that a GM and VP of baseball ops didn’t handle player moves. There’s not a GM in the history of the sport that hasn’t handled player personnel decisions.
Hi Fonzie,
Resectfully, what we have been provided is not evidence but speculation regarding Rigney’s responsibilities in Oakland during the years Sandy was the GM.
What we do know is that a General Manger is responsible for overseeing the entire operation of the business. What we also know as fact is that in Oakland Rigney did not work with or report to Sandy but to the owner instead. Adding to that is Sandy confirmng that Rigney was involved in every player move.
Under that type of organization structure it would not be possible for Rigney to be involved in every player move if that was the responsibility of Sandy Alderson and Rigney did not have to answer to him. For Rigney to be involved in the extensive work that goes into player evaluation, trades, signings, releases, etc. it would mean he would have to work in a capacity like DePodesta and Ricciardi do here in New York, where they report directly to the General Manger. There cannot be two departments independent of each other working on the same thing – that would only cause chaos, not order.
If his role was that of a consultant or adviser regarding player moves, then he would have to serve in that capacity under Sandy and not the owner for if any move Sandy made was contingent upon or nullifed based on the advise Rigney gave the owner that would be undermining Sandy’s power of authority.
*** and what I forgot to add was the Rigney only began serving as a consultant to Sandy when he became semi-retired which is not full-time 24/7 work as was his prior position with the owner.
Joey forget it thats his story and he’s sticking to it….
Want to end the conversation quickly and make a point that will stop the madness ask him this:
Why hasn’t Sandy won anything since Rigney left him?
Hi Metsie,
We both know what Sandy did and didn’t do in Oakland is pertinent to the question at hand. If he wasn’t the one responsible for re-building that Oakland club then how could he be considered one to be hired to re-build the Mets as well? There is so much evidence it seems that by being the public figure for Oakland, many put two and two together without doing any vetting.
Agree with them or not, when we’d hear a Brian Cashman or an Omar Minya talk about baseball, it is obvious these guys know the inside game. That is certainly not the case with Sandy and should be proof enough.
I suggest somebody get the courage to tweet Sandy and ask him to what extent he meant by Bill Rigney being involved in all the player moves. That would be more polite than to imply to Sandy we don’t think he did anything regarding personnel moves in Oakland for at least a decade. I’ll admit…., I’m too shy! LOL
“when we’d hear a Brian Cashman or an Omar Minya talk about baseball, it is obvious these guys know the inside game. That is certainly not the case with Sandy and should be proof enough. ”
They talk about Baseball and can talk specifics about Players….
When Sandy speaks it’s all about prccess and philosophy which shows he doesn’t care what they are doing only only how they fit into the PROCCESS!
The sign of a GM who is disconnected from the players and only concerned with the Corporate Mantra and Procedures.
No it’s not speculation at all. They would’ve kept Rigney after his one year as interim GM in 82 if they wanted him to be in charge of BB Ops and GM. I’ve already shown you links that He was consulting Eisenhardt and Sandy which is why Sandy said he was involved in every major move not the one calling the shots. He was 66 years old and already serving as the teams color analyst which is the same thing as what Keith Hernandez and Ron Darling do on SNY, Sandy’s first 3 yrs as GM. He probably didn’t want the GM duties at that age which is why it went to Sandy and he was still under Sandy in the chain of command which was shown in your baseball america database link. You’re the only one speculating. 9 month after this subject was originally brought up and you still can’t get over the fact.
Actually Sandy left the A’s before Rigney so why didn’t the A’s win anything after Sandy left with Rigney still there consulting until 2001?
ANSWER = MONEYBALL
That means the last time he had such success…MC Hammer was the most popular rapper in hip hop.
Sandy is NOT BILLY BEANE
Billy Beane may be able to accomplish what folks thought Sandy could here…which was win with a minuscule payroll.
There is a better chance that Omar Minaya wins with a 30 mil payroll than Sandy
Sandy’s record with a payroll in the bottom half of the league is absolutely atrocious
Yeah there’s a better chance of Omar winning with a 30 million dollar payroll since he has so many rings with a 130 million dollar payroll. Oh wait!
With all due respect – but you’re basically validating my point.
Basically none of the moves that Cashen made during the first couple of years of his tenure to help the major league team had any sort of positive impact. Randy Jones flopped, Dave Kingman flopped (using the very useful Steve Henderson).
He gave away future star closer Jeff Reardon for useless Ellis Valentine and traded fan favorite Lee Mazzili for two pitching prospects, none of which were even considered elite.
He also traded for George Foster a bit later who became a gigantic flop.
And which of the prospects his team drafted had any sort of impact on the major league roster through 1982. With yet another 90+ loss season, the Mets had just completed 1982 and even three years after Cashen took over, the team hadn’t gotten better at the major league level.
The main bright spots were a few young pieces Cashen inherited from the previous administration such as Mookie Wilson or Neil Allen or prospects Tim Leary or Jesse Orosco. Yet, take the time machine to metsmerizedonline.com circa November 1982 – and how would the mood be ? Again, Cashen had even had 10 more months on the job back then than Alderson & Co have had so far.
And Cashen certainly had more money available to spend than Alderson who has basically been a chief restructuring officer here as much as he has been the GM. Yes, I do acknowledge that the major league roster Alderson & Co inherited was better than the one Cashen did which makes up for the financial disadvantage. However, with all due respect to Omar Minaya & Co., the Mets already had been a sub .500 team in back-to- back seasons before Alderson took over.
To summarize, the point is, rebuilding takes time. 2-3 years from now, we’ll be able to make a first legit evaluation of the Alderson & Co era. Certainly not now.
Mets fans have been spoiled by 20+ years of shortterm thinking and quick fixes.
The financial troubles are a blessing in disguise to finally stop it. Whether Alderson & Co will end up succeeding remains to be seen. But their job remains very much incomplete so far.
Dr. Dooby (I love that name by the way
If I remember, we traded Mazzilli for Ron Darling and Walt Terrell. I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure.
And when Cashen came in, he told the fanbase it would take 5 years to be competitive. And you know what? In 5 years, 1984, we were competitive.
As far as having more money to spend, I’m not so sure. The Mets farm system was decimated, attendance was under 1 million per year and the stadium had to be renovated.
True. Cashen was outspoken about rebuilding.
And my one “beef” with Alderson has been the lack of open-ness about the real situation that this is a “REBUILDING” project – both in terms of finances and in terms of organizational philosophy and creating a longterm, sustainable winner (which he has indicated at times if you read the fine print).
That said, the GM for an ownership group apparently a step away from insolvency and a total financial collapse probably wouldn´t be allowed to state “Heck, we´re rebuilding, it´ll take time and come back in 2014 or 2015 and see what we did while you´re getting to watch Lucas Duda, Jordany Valdespin, Chris Schwinden and a couple of waiver pickups from the San Diego Padres system we know try to do their best in the meantime”…
So, realistically, the casual fan base needs to be fed with some unlikely hope that this team is interesting enough to watch. Which it actually has been for the last 3 first halves until the lack of depth, lack of available financial assets and lack of willingness to trade prospects while you´re rebuilding led to 2nd half collapses as injuries mounted and no adequate replacements were available.
If the Mets had been really serious about winning in 2012, they should have made moves when Gee & Santana both went out right around the All Star break and it wasn´t too late yet.
Heck, they could have traded for Zach Greinke or at least Paul Maholm or Ryan Dempster for that matter. Besides not having money available, would it have made sense to package Wilmer Flores and Jeurys Familia together for example to add such a piece in the Mets´ situation ?
However, rightfully so, and again financial restrictions aside, they kept all their prospects and only later when it was too late anyway made another lipsick dot on their 2012 pig by trading fringy reliever Pedro Beato for 2 months of Kelly Shoppach.
Hi Dr. Dooby…..
Great post, great comparison in how building a winner is a work in progress, and doesn’t happen overnight in baseball. I can gather from reading posts here that most writers and commentators have a deep knowledge of baseball so it just confounds me further the prejudice and hostility expressed here toward Sandy. Like I’ve said dozens of times before, this man has been pre-judged, tried and convicted here. And those that hate his style and/or approach, will not listen to the very compelling arguments defending him and the situation he’s in.
Oh, and by the way, I don´t understand the Omar vs. Sandy debate. Both were in very different situations here.
Omar did a fair job overall.
The good:
Built an instant winner by spending lots of money but also making lots of solid secondary moves (John Maine, Jose Valentin, Endy Chavez, Chad Bradford, Darren Oliver & Co).
Inherited a depleted farm system and – eventually after a couple of not so efficient drafts – restocked that back to solid with solid drafting and solid IFA and gave the Mets a much stronger standing in the International market.
The bad:
Besides hurting the development of prospects by rushing them through the system based on shortterm needs, obviously the payroll got out of control at some point as Omar underestimated the time it would take for his Latin American talent pipeline to work which left him without backup plans. Thus mistakes like the Schoenweis or Castillo contracts that were terrible from the minute they were signed or Perez, K-Rod and Bay which at least were debatable, though not as bad when they happened.
He thought that IFA pipeline would “flow” onto the MLB roster by 2009 and the opening of CitiField. In fact, Ruben Tejada is the only legit output so far through 8 years and only now is a wave of players (Familia, Mejia, Flores, Valdespin and others) closing in.
Omar also got unlucky with some player decisions and then the Madoff & ownership collapse.
Overall, he´s one of the nicest persons in Baseball and eventually will have played a significant part in having contributed to the next Mets winner in all likelihood.
Again, as stated, Alderson has been the “CRO” in here for the last two years and only now is slowly able to focus on improving the team at the major league level. We can make a first real judgement after the 2014 season, i.e. the first season of “full financial autonomy” and with 4 June drafts and IFA periods, plus 4 off-seasons in the books by then. Hoping for the best and pretty confident Alderson & Co. have a pretty good idea about what they´re doing. But the EARLY results won´t really be available until 2014.
MetsWatchman stick around, you’ll read posts from some who openly stated they hate Alderson try and say he had nothing to do with Oaklands championship run but he had everything to do with when they started losing. It’s that ridiculous. Openly rooting for Wheeler to fail, it goes on and on.
I swear I am damn tired of hearing about Oakland from both sides. It was 30 years ago almost. Time to move on. The situations have almost nothing to do with each other and assuming that Sandy hasn’t learned one damn thing about baseball over those 30 years in baseball is about the most asinine comments I have ever read.
“To summarize, the point is, rebuilding takes time. 2-3 years from now, we’ll be able to make a first legit evaluation of the Alderson & Co era. Certainly not now.
Mets fans have been spoiled by 20+ years of shortterm thinking and quick fixes.
The financial troubles are a blessing in disguise to finally stop it. Whether Alderson & Co will end up succeeding remains to be seen. But their job remains very much incomplete so far.”
Ding, ding, ding!!!
Other than Wheeler name some moves Alderson has made to improve this team for the future….
FYI Frank Cashen did not have Free agency at the time to help improve the team like Alderson does
Some of the best moves ever are non-moves. Again, what part of too early to judge are you not getting? I have said all along that following the off-season of 2013 that if I didn’t see what I was looking for I too would hold the pitchfork. However, anyone with one eye open could see that as soon as Omar was fired the clock moved until 2014 being the next hint at a truly competitive team based on the current situation. It never had anything to do with Sandy, hell I barely remembered who he was when he was hired. If I and many more people feel this way, what has happened to change that?
LMAO@”Some of the best moves ever are non-moves.”—–How convenient of you lol…I could see this logic in terms of bad signings but not in terms of rebuilding a team.
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“Again, what part of too early to judge are you not getting?”
Uhhhhh….Maybe, The part where I judge him!!! o_O
Look, Zack Wheeler hasnt done anything to be judged one way or the other (good or bad)but I consider him a move Alderson made to improve the team for the future. Whether he pans out or not is another story.
My point is no matter how hard anyone looks you dont see what he has done to give any fan the impression that 2014 is the year. The only thing possible that can be done is if he goes free agent signing crazy in 2013′s free agency. My point is there is nothing on the horizon in the minors that says this position player will be here in 2014 and might be a stud…Their isnt anyone that here fits that description. No HOPE
You can judge him all you want. You guys already have. Where the difficulty begins is when those of us who are waiting to judge him get constantly called names and berated to the point that the owner has to ban a middle school insult just to redirect conversation. There are maybe 2 posters that have ever sang Sandy’s praises yet supposedly there is this gigantic divide between his supporters and detractors.
How is it that you can label me apart of a certain group then in the same paragraph complain about others putting you in a group lol….
Whats that about…lol…
I would rather Sandy was successful but I see no Hope…I dont care who is the GM of my team as long as they are trying to improve the team yearly. And in Sandy I dont trust because I dont see any signs of improvement and when I look at his tenure with the Padres Im not impressed and neither were Padres fans.
I guess he was so successful in the 80′s due to collusion in baseball in regards to free agents. He might be trying to bring that trend of collusion back
Again, I don’t care about Sandy really in general but especially not what he did in Oakland and SD and think that are about as relevant as the pine tar on George’s bat.
Again, it’s impossible to actually know if the team whose clear goal from the beginning was 2014 has actually taken significant steps towards that goal and we most likely won’t know for at least another year.
Which prospects drafted in 2011 or 2012 and available to the Mets or signed as International Free agents are likely to be of big help to any MLB team by 2014 ? And, if you believe High School talent has more upside than College Talent very often and this system lacked upside while having depth, it´s even less likely you even graduate a HS pick or IFA to the majors in only 3 years.
The Tampa Bay Rays – a generally well-managed organization – hasn´t promoted a single player from any draft since 2008 to the majors so far.
It takes 5 to 7 years to build a farm system.
Just ask Omar Minaya who turned a terrible system into a solid middle of the pack system in his tenure – as basically his first real crop of players has just been reaching the majors these last couple of years – about 6 to 8 years since Omar took over.
Look at the key upper level prospects who will hopefully establish themselves in the majors within the next year:
Mejia (IFA 2007)
Familia (IFA 2007)
Flores (IFA 2007)
Wheeler (draft 2009)
Den Dekker (draft 2010)
We´re not even entering the time frame of the Alderson tenure for 2013 purposes.
I never stated that a draft pick from any of those years should be ready by 2014 its possible but i never said it…What i was eluding to is that most teams looking to rebuild in this era trade away there assets (ie. Dickey, Wright etc) for an abundance of near ready prospects from other teams. This is a formula that the Rays use and Billy Beane has used for a while now and has had success with it. Alderson has only done this once with Wheeler. and he gave up a lot 8million dollars and a top notch outfielder who was excelling. But i dont kill him like others because he made an ATTEMPT to improve the team for the future and got back a player who many view as a top notch young talent.
Everyone said you cant rebuild in NYC well the Mets are actually being given the chance to do that but we dont see the MOVES that say yeah Sandy stockpiled this this and that…Omar got our farm system from being bottom of the barrel to middle pack but Alderson hasnt budge it and the big league club has regressed. You cant expect any fan to not call for his head, they no longer ask for answers because fans no longer trust him because he lies his actions and his words are different
Yes but even the Rays, the Redsox and almost any other team with established stars with the exception of the Marlins when rebuilding still keep some of their players instead of starting from scratch. Perhaps the Mets decided they needed to move on from Reyes, Bay, Johan, Perez and Castillo but keep RA and Wright? Not saying that is what I would do but again, keeping some of your best players isn’t really opposite of what the Rays or teams like the Redsox or the O’s have done.
Wheeler is th only player he’s added for the future? LMAO. Really? Montero, Mateo, Fulmer, Pill, Leathersich, Nimmo, Evans, etc… None of those guys have anything to do with planning for the future. I guess if the 2011 and 12 draftpicks don’t become solid major leaguers by 2013 then Sandy failed.
No Fonzie, they wanted Sandy to trade the Mets prospect scrubs for cheap viable MLB talent that would currently produce.
TRS, for some reason I cant reply to your comment below…
“They weren’t going to do it through FA for sure and did you really want them to trade guys like Flores or Harvey? ”
No, I didnt want them to trade any of those prospects to improve the big league club because i bought in to rebuild through the farm.
I expected Sandy to stand by what he said and not spend big money on bullpen arms and allocate that money elsewhere to players whom were coming off of bad years but had success in the past. I was championing guy like Cody Ross who sucked in San Fran but had success in the NL he didnt have to commit numerous years for and werent very expensive. Similar to what he did with Chris Young and Capuano….I also feel he doesnt do a good job of taking advantage of other teams need to add pieces for their playoff run.
I and other fans wouldnt kill him for trading guys like Reyes,Wright,Dickey for numerous prospects…well some fans will kill him but trading them is better than letting them walk for draft picks. And now that he cant receive those supplement picks for letting stars walk how does that change his philosophy?
REALLY FONZIE???
Every freaking team in the MLB has draft picks that they have signed.
My comment was in regards to the 2014 being the year of Judgement whether Sandy improved the team or not.
Its idiotic comments like that which cause Bayonne and Alex to respond the way they do towards you….How about before replying to a comment read all the comments pertaining to it.
NO ONE said anything about not seeing improvement in 2011,2012 from drafted prospects…
BB, what improvements were you looking for then? They weren’t going to do it through FA for sure and did you really want them to trade guys like Flores or Harvey? Again, that is why I am saying that sometimes the best moves are just to wait.
Every MLB team has draftpicks yeah I know. The Mets have had draftpicks just like every other team over the last 23 years and how many star players have come out of that? And Mateo and Montero were not draftpicks they were IFA’s and they both have exeptional futures. Those guys don’t count? Only Wheeler? Every team drafted equally or better the last 2 years? Maybe the Mets should’ve really hired guys from MMO.
Do you really think I give a flying rats ass what a guy like Alex or anybody else for that matter thinks. Idiotic? Lol. Take a look at some of the ridiculous posts you write.
Let´s see:
# 1 Beltran for Wheeler – great trade, regardless of whether Wheeler ever throws an MLB pitch in terms of thinking. If Wheeler gets hit by a truck tomorrow (god beware), it´s still a great trade in terms of current value received for a player that wasn´t going to be retained (the Mets had no 12.5 million to spend on Beltran available last winter)
# 2 Getting what turned out to be highly promising Michael Fulmer as an extra June 2011 pick by offering Feliciano arbitration in full knowledge of not planning to keep him.
# 3 Shifting developmental philosophy on the farm:
- slower graduation and thus better preparedness for next level & thus majors. Matt Harvey doesn´t dominate as he did, had he been promoted by late 2011 (which would have been the case with the previous admin for sure) and it runs through all levels
- an organizational pitching program that was extremely successful in 2012 (6-man rotations, 10+ more changeups for SP, etc): How many Mets SP prospects missed significant time with injuries in 2012 ?
# 4 Not generally ignoring HS talent in drafts anymore
We won´t see the results before 2015 in all likelihood. Still, by just going for projectable college talent often, you go for players with less ceiling and less star ability. Sure, that was compensated by being active in the IFA market. But you can still remain active and sign IFA AND draft upside as well.
And indeed, instead of trading prospects in ill-fated runs in 2011 & 2012, the Mets stood pat at the last two deadlines.
With Dillon Gee & Johan Santana both out by the All Star break, a GM caring about shortterm results would certainly have been tempted to add a big SP at the deadline.
Would a move like Wilmer Flores, Jeurys Familia and Collin McHugh for Greinke have been applauded in July ??? Instead of 74 games, the 2012 Mets probably win 77 due to Greinke and maybe 82 due to “better spirit” around the team. The playoffs they wouldn´t have made anyway. But they´d have wasted 3 pieces for their 2013 & beyond plans at a time when the 2012 roster structurally wasn´t a “playoff contender”.
So, sometimes, standing pat and waiting is the best move to make.
And before you reply ” but they should have traded Hairston for prospect(s) then, yada yada…”, take a step back and look at the Mets 40-man roster situation and what is going to happen over the next couple of years. Thanks to a much improvined farm (thanks both to Omar & Co. and Sandy & Co !), next fall and the following one may be ugly in terms of losing Rule V eligible talent. This winter already there may not be room for an intriguing prospect like 3b Jefrey Marte. So, trade Hairston for someone else´s Jefrey Marte to make the Houstong Astros happy in the Rule V ?
Which is my point about sometimes the best moves are non-moves.
“And indeed, instead of trading prospects in ill-fated runs in 2011 & 2012, the Mets stood pat at the last two deadlines.”
#1 FYI I note this as the only proactive move he has made to improve the team other than draft picks and IFA which every team does…..Also The mets also sent the Giants $4mil dollars along with Beltran…
#2 Every team practices this method and would have done this
#3 Lol…You realize that Harvey only spent a year in a half in the minors??lol..bad example and in the previous regimes defense…How does Tejada,Ike look to you now they were rushed…Ike played only 1 full season in the minors…Tejada was said to be rushed at a young age…Flores as well…regardless both methods have their benefits and flaws…I prefer a more case by case method.
#4 i wont blame the old regime on this topic because we all know this was the owners doing
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It isnt about trading prospects for playoff runs in 2011 &2012 it is the sense of being in limbo….the trade deadline is a prime place to improve your team. Because automatically your players values are raised just based on the fact that other teams in the playoff hunt are desperate to improve their team to make that last playoff push. Sellers can have teams bid against each other for their players…And both years Sandy stood pat, sure he traded Beltran but he held onto a Reyes that he didnt intend on re-signing,Capuano he held onto him knowing they wouldnt be back…the next year yes Hairston….Theirs no need to worry about losing a Marte because no team will sacrifice a big league spot for this kid he hasnt done anything to warrant a big league spot. If there is talent out there you go get it and deal with the Rule 5 and 40 man afterwards….because Hairston is not coming back to the Mets next year we will lose him for NOTHING!
Cashen had free agency. He chose not to go after them.
Theirs one BIG difference DrDooby…..Cashen was being proactive actually making moves attempting to improve the team in a time where their was NO FREE AGENCY. And Alderson hasnt so far.
The only move he has made to improve the team for the future is acquiring Wheeler. He is the only talent that Alderson has acquired to try to improve the team for the future. And even his drafting is suspect last year they failed to sign half their picks. I think they were last when it came to how many draft picks they signed. Even more worrisome they got rid of a minor league affiliate which they reinstated this year. If that isnt a sign of failure I dont know what is you dont cut from your farm if you intend to build from it.
If you are building for the future you stock pile talent you dont cut it. If the gov’t says hey we want to build our future by investing in our kids and their schooling then closes down a bunch of schools. They will be criticized because that move would be counter-productive to their said initiative.
No one is rooting against Sandy to fail we want this bozo to make moves to improve the team but he DOESNT so we get frustrated and then call for his head when we see no improvements and more importantly what seems to be a lack of effort. Prime example: failing to even attempt to improve a terrible bullpen midseason.
“If you are building for the future you stock pile talent you dont cut it. If the gov’t says hey we want to build our future by investing in our kids and their schooling then closes down a bunch of schools. They will be criticized because that move would be counter-productive to their said initiative.”
Actually as a teacher, that certainly IS what IS needed but not what is popular which is kinda his point.
Closing down schools is the answer???
Really?!?!?
Ive always been told that over crowding is a big reason for kids being distracted in class. Wouldnt less schools lead to overcrowding of schools?!?!
Or do you believe only the elite should get schooling and the peasants kids should go find a factory job?
While the last sentence is certainly amusing, no.
The school system itself needs a gigantic overhaul but you gonna get me on the soap box. We have plenty of schools and plenty of teachers, it’s just the system is so ineffective at this point that you could add 1,000′s of schools and millions more teachers and not make a damn bit of difference. Return local control to the schools, you know the ones that actually know what their system needs, and force them to actually think about what they do instead of trying to throw money at it and you would see a huge difference. So yes, there is plenty of fat that can be cut from the school systems that would require many schools and teachers to unfortunately either be shut down or released. Not a popular answer but if you pander to the masses you get what we have today, entire situation sounds familiar.
I agree it needs a complete overhaul but I dont necessarily agree that schools need to be closed down for this to occur. I am 100% convinced that the American school systems sole purpose is to indoctrinate Americans while they are babes at their most impressionable.
But the question is how was closing down one of the Mets schools(GCL minor league team) only to reinstate it the next year beneficial for the Mets. They didnt save much money and lost another outlet to store and teach minor league talent
That’s a good question and I think points directly to the fact they just didn’t have the money to operate it. Remember that financial group coming in and getting paid well to “reorganize” the Mets finances? If that group came in and saw we had more MILB teams than all but 2 teams in the majors don’t you think that would be one of the first things they recommend us to cut?
But seriously TRS, They saved very little in that move to cut the GCL franchise. When I say little its is referring to MLB standards and the savings they acquired from such a move.
They couldnt have been that much of penny pinchers since they cut and paid Ollie Perez and Luis Castillo
BB, in this civil discussion which is nice for a change, I don’t think you are reading the tea leaves too well. The Mets even fired lots of workers around that time as well. Regardless of how trivial we feel the cash was, based on their moves to save every penny during that time, it’s pretty clear they were hanging on by a thread. Again, I will stand by my guns saying that firm is the # one reason the MILB was shut down. Now this year maybe they are on better footing or perhaps even Sandy got his way and it was reopened.
I they saved 1.5 million shutting down the GCL team. Not sure how accurate that number is. Less than half of MLB even has a GCL team and the Mets are 1 of 4 teams to have 2 DSL teams and they did sign 34 IFA’s over this past season nearly 3X more than any other team.
BBLB…..I know this wont change your position at all, but free agency was alive and well during the Frank Cashen era with the Mets. Whether he was permitted by the owners to utilize that option is another story.
MetsWatchman,
I’m aware it was alive during Cashens era it wasnt well.
After-all the owners did lose the case for collusion.
BBLB…..Tell Steinbrenner and the Yankees it wasn’t well…..PLEASE
I dont have to….they already know it wasnt….1 name Carlton Fisk
Free agency began 5 years before Cashen was hired. Catfish Hunter signed a 5 year deal with the Yanks in 1975 as the first FA signing. Dave Winfield signed with the Yanks when Cashen was the GM of the Mets. Cashen made minor moves that amounted to nothing in his first 3 years. He didn’t start making progress until his 3rd offseason.
This is the same free agency that prevented Steinbrenner from signing Carlton Fisk after he offered Fisk a contract but withdrew the offer after getting a call from Fisk former team Jerry Reinsdorf….COLLUSION!
Known Rampant Collusion!!! was the point
That had nothing to do with why Cashen didn’t sign any free agents. Even when the team started winning he still didn’t sign any free agents besides minor ones. Cashen made trades and it wasn’t until the 82 offseason his 3rd when he started making trades that actually improved the team. His pre 82 trades all backfired. The Reardon trade was awful. Foster backfired and Kingman other than the occasional 550 foot HR sucked.
Youre missing the whole point…My argument was that Cashmen made trades! Billy Beane makes Trades! The Rays whom many like to point to when talking about mets rebuild makes trades!
Someone was comparing Cashen to Alderson and I made the point that Alderson has an advantage with todays free agency. Free agency was around in Cashens tenure but it was a farce.
Alderson stated theyd be rebuilding the farm but would remain competitive at the major league level. So far by his agenda he has failed, hell he’s even said on many occasions he did not achieve what he set out to do.
My argument wasnt to say,”oh Cashen is a genius everything he touched turned to Gold”…It was to say that he made moves to improve and didnt get gun shy when such moves failed to produce. For every bad trade you noted that Cashen made there was a trade that brought in a Keith Hernandez,Darling, Carter etc. Alderson failed in the Pagan deal, Wheeler deal has potential to be positive although on top of a top notch OF he also sent 8mil to the Giants, K-Rod deal i view as a lose because while he moved him yeah he also had to send money to the Brewers. Shoppach for Beato will be a waste give up on a young arm for a handful of games from an backup catcher who by reports you wont re-sign.
What does FA have to do with rebuilding? If anything during rebuilding the only thing you use FA for is to buy time for development of younger players.
And every trade that Cashen made that was successful didn’t happen until his 3rd and 4th and even his 5th offseason (Carter). Nothing he did in his first 2 offseasons did anything to improve the team. He brought in some wa.shed up veterans. How is free agency an advantage to Alderson when he can’t spend any money on them? Why was it a farce back then?
The Pagan trade turned out bad but he wasn’t getting you back anything better coming off 2011 when he forgot how to catch a flyball and threw to unoccupied bases. He should’ve been dealt after 2010.
K-Rod was not getting you back anything decent with that option hanging over his head and all he needed was to finish 21 more games thanks to Collins using him finish blowout games and non save situations. Every team had a chance to sign K-Rod last offseason and he had to settle for arbitration. If his value was so high then why didn’t one team want him to close. he finished the season for Milwaukee in 2011 lights out.
Reyes got hurt 3 weeks before the deadline so there went that. You want to get something good back for the future lke a Wheeler then you better be prepared to give up Ike and Niese. Your not getting back a haul for Wright or Dickey with one year of control and for Wright you’ll have to send cash to get back a top prospect. Each guy will bring back 1 top prospect or multiple B prospects. You want multiple prospects then you’ll have to part with Niese, Harvey, Wheeler and to a lesser extent Ike.
While I find the thrust of your point a little premature, I can’t argue with the case you built. In fact it’s bulletproof. I say it’s premature because I would of held off until February to see what Sandy Alderson does now with the cloud of financial uncertainty now passed. He no longer has that crutch to lean on and obviously the Wilpons are back in business with open wallets. I don’t expect him to do much, and in the end you may be proven right, but I think it would have been wiser to hold off three more months. That said, you did a fine job articulating your points and being factual with your supporting evidence.
Well he was going to get February no matter anyone says….
I get your willingness to wait till then but it does beg the question…If by then you realize this guy is no good was it really worth wasting another offseason on him and the potential ruining of the team (via trading Wright and Dickey) just to see if he could redeem himself?
I agree that he is going to get that chance no matter what we have to say about it but in the end the discussion really should be is it worth giving him that time at all and what further damage can he do with that borrowed time?
This has got to be one of the most entertaining truthful article i have seen in a long time.. Of course, as soon as you mention sandy alderson in an arrticle, and the saber/sandy lovers see it, and its kinda portrait negative towards their lord you most certainly gonna have a lashback. These people just keep amazing me every single day.. I mean, the excuses for sandy alderson at some point got to stop. My goodness. From the guys is a genius, those guys are smart, greatest sign the mets ever done to the mets have no money.. Never mind his trades and horrible signings, it’s all about the money the mets don’t have. Uhh, yea, that’s why he was brought here no? As soon as brad eamus was taken the man was praised, and it was said that moves like this were expected to be made because the mets have no money, but we were told not to worry, if there’s someone who can find undervalue players to help the team is sandy alderson.. 2 years later, scratch all that, the mets have no money… At this point, i am glad the mets have no money to give to this guy, can you only imagine what terrible moves he’d have made if he did?? Let’s just pray that in one more year he’s out of here along with his goons and we can finally move on from this terrible era onto the next one with a GM that wants to win
Alderson still has his work cut out for him going forward. And it´s way too early for any sort of judgement on him, considering circumstances.
For the past 2 years, he was more “C.R.O.” than “GM” in terms of the major league roster and the major league payroll.
How many major league teams have spent less than the Mets on free agent talent than the Mets in the last two off-seasons combined while having as big a need for major league bodies at the same time ? If you need 6 to 8 bodies for your 25-man roster and only have 10 to 12 million $ to spend, you won´t be getting Grade A or B players.
And since you´re rebuilding, you won´t trade your prospects for major leaguers.
And since your owners need every penny of revenue to avoid an insolvency, you better not hold a fire sale either.
So, with spending big on a shortterm winner was never an option, you can´t really give Alderson much of a grade in terms of impact on the MLB roster yet. This should be easier going forward with more flexibility.
And while I like the general direction of the farm system, the results will ultimately decide.
Man who is this sensible new poster?
HI TR,
Again, the point about Sandy in Oakland has everything to do with this conversation now. There is the argument that he was not the one who built those great teams but simply served as the organizations CEO and if true, as many of us contend it is, then he was not brought in to build a winning team here but to keep the organization from going under and forcing the Wilpons to sell their majority ownership. So his past is completely relevant for by answering what excactly his role was with Oakland we can settle the argument as to why he was he brought to New York.
Nope sorry Joey it has absolutely nothing to do with now and you guys have wasted hours and hours on the most pointless subject on a Mets blog possible. Now if it were an A’s blog they MIGHT find it relative but I doubt it.
Joey he was brought here to do both. Help these D-Bag owners keep the team and restructure the entire organization from the ground up. That takes time.
You keep saying that may of you contend that he wasn’t the one who built the team in Oakland but it’s only 2 people that have ever made that claim it’s not many of you. And TRS is right. The 80′s A’s and the present Mets have 2 entirely different situations. So what and how he did things back then has nothing to do with what he’s doing here.
Rob,
Nice job on this piece.
A few thoughts for you:
- The Pedro signing… I 100% agree with you that at the time it sent a message, but if you look back on it today and look at the other teams in baseball who “sent a message” by overpaying for talent, where did they end up? I’m not faulting Minaya for doing it, I’m merely saying that you can look at teams such as Marlins and Dodgers for example – teams that made big flashy moves to prove a point and what happened?
I’ve said this before and I will say it again. I supported Omar Minaya more than 90% of the people applauding your article here did. However, to be fair – he was the GM of a team that had 2 young potential stars ready to make their name known and an owner that was ready to spend. Not a bad gig.
Omar’s biggest flaw was without a doubt that he allowed 2006 and then 2007 to alter his vision for the Mets. He spent pre-07 and pre-08 and pre-09 worrying about that “one piece away.” And to be fair, so did we fans.
I agree with this statement “Think about it. Just a few years ago, we spent winters hoping to IMPROVE. Now we spend winters simply not wanting to get any worse.” But I also believe you need to recognize Minaya’s role in that after the fact. I’m not saying it’s all his fault, but I am saying he had a hand in today’s problems.
I believe and I hope that the things done or not done today are with a vision of the future and understanding that you can’t go all in via free agency no matter the cost and expect longterm success. It takes a little time to fix the wounds of yesterday but if you can find a way to come out smarter and healthier then it’s a good thing – it may just sting while you peel the bandaid.
I think we’ll look back on the Alderson-era and understand it much more than we do today. I really do, but I hope the days of excitement than 06-08 brought are not too far away.
Hi Watch and Selig,
See what I mean about it best to avoid making personal remarks? While it might not seem out of place to one, one never knows how the other is going to take it. What might have been meant only as a harmless bit of light levity could easily cause another’s feelings to be hurt – especially here at MMO since we all have very passionate feelings about our favorite team. Then things go back and forth and eventually it doesn’t matter who said what or when – the ill will has already been formulated.
You both seem like great guys and I know how upsetting things could get when a conversation can become so personal – especially when the ridicule becomes so bad to the point of humiliation.
Wanna bury the hatchet? Hope you don’t want to use the hatchet on me instead for budding in
HI Fonzie,
The words you use like “if”, “probably” and “would’ve” do not speak in fact – the are congruent to speculation.
Unlike Keith and Ron, Rigney had an extensive resume way beyond being a color commentator – he was a coach, manager, scout and club executive. These are facts, not speculation.
And it wasn’t until 1990 that Rigney began working under Sandy Alderson. Prior to that he didn’t.
Sandy Alderson – Vice President of Baseball Operations
Bill Rigney – Assistant to the President, Baseball Matters
Bill Rigney 1990 – Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters
Facts, not speculation.
Baseball “operations” and baseball “matters” are two different areas. And an assistant to the President is not an assistant to the general manager. Facts, not speculation.
Walter Hass:
1989 Owner/Executive Vice President
1990 Owner/Managing General Partner
After the ’89 season, Hass’s responsibilities changed and it was then that Rigney because an assistant under Sandy. Facts, not speculation.
In 1991 Rigney went into semi retirement and his title changed from that of an executive position:
1991 – Assistant, Baseball Matters. Fact, not speculation.
And one involved in every player move has to work with the general manager if the GM is indeed in charge of brainstorming actual player decisions. But Rigney did not work under or alongside the general manager – he worked directly under the owner. And his title is “matters” while the GM’s title is “operations”. Again, two different areas, two different departments. Fact, not speculation.
And when you mention “I’ve already shown you links that He was consulting Eisenhardt and Sandy which is why Sandy said he was involved in every major move not the one calling the shots”, what you surmize happened based on those links does not even take into account that it was in 1990 that Rigney’s position changed due to a re-organization in Oakland and then a year later went into semi-retirement as an Assistant, Baseball Matters. Fact, not speculation – and misuse of information as well.