1
2012
Wright Compares Equally To Chipper, But Is That Enough To Overcome Sandy’s Aversion To Longterm Deals?
An article by 
Couldn’t help noticing this on MetsBlog on Sunday. How may of you, off the top of your heads, knew that their career trajectories were almost exact in every way? Jones with a tad more home run power, Wright with a tad more speed, but otherwise a complete match.
It was ironic that on the night the Atlanta Braves chose to honor Chipper Jones for his incredible career with the only team he’s ever known, there too was David Wright taking it all in.
The New York Times pointed out the obvious:
Even as the Braves presented a visibly moved Jones with a pool table, his clubhouse locker and a Hawaiian vacation, speculation about his replacement reached the visiting dugout. With Jones’s $13 million coming off the books, and with a strong group of prospects in the minors, the Braves could be in a position to make a large offer to David Wright. Wright’s presence in a Mets uniform past this season is not guaranteed. The club holds a $16 million option on him for the 2013 season. They will almost certainly exercise it, unless Wright makes it known that he either will not re-sign with the team, or asks for such a prohibitive salary that the cash-poor club cannot keep him.
Will David Wright one day have his own ceremony at Citi Field as a lifelong Met?
Or will he simply move on like every other Mets homegrown star over the 51 year history of this franchise?
If history is any indication, and if you throw in Sandy Alderson’s aversion to any long-term deals which he seemingly mocks as every $100+ million deal goes down in baseball, there’s a good possibility that Wright’s 3-run homer in R.A. Dickey’s 20th win was his last highlight in a Mets uniform at Citi Field.
Last week, not one, but two high-ranking team executives foretold that there would be no deals beyond one year signed this offseason. “Not even a two-year deal”.
Money or no money, a $100+ million dollar deal is not in Alderson’s DNA.
He’s never agreed to any such deal in over a quarter century of calling the shots for either the A’s, Padres or Mets. It’s never happened. It has nothing to do with being broke, it’s just his philosophy That’s why he made disparaging remarks or rolled his eyes when asked to comment about the Crawford, Braun, Tulowitzki and Zimmerman deals. That wasn’t Fred speaking, it was Sandy.
When he first took over as GM of the A’s, at a time when the A’s were big spenders, Alderson’s earliest move was trading 25-year old superstar Rickey Henderson to the New York Yankees for Stan Javier, Erik Plunk and Jose Rijo because he was starting to get too expensive and was on the verge of free agency. The Yankees signed him to a five-year extension after the trade and Henderson started five straight All Star Games on his way to clinching his Hall of Fame career. Rijo posted a 4.75 ERA in three seasons with the A’s, Plunk 4.34 in four season, Javier .670 OPS in seven seasons.
The same pattern repeated itself when homegrown stars he drafted like Mark McGwire, Walt Weiss and Jose Canseco all became eligible for huge paydays. In fact, trading hometown hero and fan favorite Mark McGwire was the last trade Alderson would make before stepping down as General Manager after the 1997 season. Canseco had already been traded and Weiss was allowed to leave for free agency. The Oakland A’s much ballyhooed trio of successive Rookie of the Years were all officially gone.
If you can trade a 25-year old stud like Henderson in his walk year for three scrubs, you think there will be any hesitation in trading a 30-year old Wright who will command five times more than what Rickey wanted?
Is Wright anymore important to the Mets than Mark McGwire was to the A’s who had a .931 OPS in 12 seasons in Oakland and was discarded like a used rag and traded to the St. Louis Cardinals for Eric Ludwick, T.J. Mathews and Blake Stein?
Get used to it my friends, unless Sandy Alderson does something completely out of character and goes against everything in his gut, Wright will not be back.
I take no joy in saying that.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Well, you left out how by then chipper jones was an establish all star, an MVP, Top 25 MVP vote getter for 8 staright years, a good clutch hitter who came trough for the braves. a known met killer, and by then, The Atlanta Braves’s unanimous LEADER of the team. You cannot compare a HOF with David Wright. it’s just not fair. Those guys over there had nothing better to do.
Also, i am up for trading DW, i just hope this guy do not trade him for the same package deal he traded mcgwire.. Then again, prospects are not a sure thing we’ve seen that throughout the years, but neither are FA or players traded to NY.
Chipper had 19 years to do what he did, and so far after 8 years Wright’s numbers are right there. Lets see what he does in the next ten years,. Plenty of time still left.
YEah, while i agree there’s plenty of time left, chipper accomplished the foremention while in his prime and he got better even in his early 30′s. you cannot ignore wright’s back problems and hefty decline in his numbers the past 4 years…
Ok what gives?? Why are my comment on moderation????
Just an FYI: I’m seeing your comments on this thread….this is the 3rd one.
Just a heads up…don’t use the word that starts with “S” and ends with “URP” that is an auto hold up.
I was very disappointed when comments I made contained those words and got moderated and rejected a week or so ago.
The funny thing is, I wasn’t even using it as a negative term towards anybody. It was another Sandy story so i joked that I’d get the word out of the way because it always gets used and how people react to it.
Sorry, Joe…was very disappointing in who ever handles the censoring of the comments.
USMF, i didn’t even used those words. my comments were being in moderation just because… At no point i was using those words.
So your saying that even if the Wilpons were swimming in millions that Alderson still wouldnt sign Wright to a Zimmerman type deal?
seems to be it. I disagree though. If Fred told Sandy they found another 90 mill in the shake shack cash register, and were fine with doubling payroll to match what the phils spend, the dynamic would absolutely change.
somewhat misleading comparison. At that point, Chipper was still peaking, and over that stretch (while starting to miss games from injury) he still averaged an OPS of .952, with 3/5 top 25 MVP finishes. So the odds are pretty low that DW will keep pace over say the next 600 games (4 years), considering his career high is barely above that, and he hasn’t broken .900 since 2008.
heck, his last 556 games (last 4 years) it is only .844. Nothing to sneeze at, but not chipper territory.
as to payroll, didn’t the A’s lead the league (or MLB) for a couple years with Sandy, before the new owners came in and gutted the budget? Does not really say he would or wouldn’t do a huge deal, but at least he had no problem with a big payroll (if maybe spread around more evenly). 100mill deals were much less common in those days too.
the Padres, well they have never been big spenders.
Not to mention that Chipper is a switch hitter – always a bit more valuable, IMO.
Agree with your comments on payroll. If money were not an issue right now, this would be a different discussion. Then again, if the Wilpons had not been in danger of having to sell the team, SA would probably not be the GM.
stick — Looking at the big picture and knowing that no two human beings are exactly the same leads me to conclude that we wind up with a distinction without a difference. Both have been great players and made our game of baseball better while acting with class and dignity.
P.S.: Chipper never had to face Smoltz!!! LOL.
Stick there were no 100 million dollar deals then. He also fails to mention he reacquired Rickey Henderson and helped them win the 89 WS. He also brought in a lot big name players too.
First off, was I the only kid who seemed to get an Erik Plunk card in every pack of baseball cards?
Second, to be a little fair to Sandy, $100mil contracts did not happen back when he was running the A’s. Hopefully he traded Canseco because he was a trouble making steroid freak…and Mac was just a known steroid freak. Rickey got traded because SB’s are just a footnote.
Anyone remember why Tony La Russa was let go? I think it was part of the whole money dump in Oakland, but I’m not sure.
Yes, Wright and Chipper have started pretty even overall, but how they got to those totals are very different. As much as I hate Chipper, he has been extremely consistent during his career while Wright has not been. We can have some great arguments on why Wright’s numbers have fluctuated (CityField, unclutch, unable to be the man, injuries, no protection…) but Wright needs to stick with what he did at the start of this season and stop trying to be the big HR guy.
Sadly, you listen to Wright’s comments on the situation and it sounds like he’s already decided that his time is up in NY. He knows he can get better money someplace else and going by the past two years, you can tell that the FO is not committed to winning (at least in the short term) and I’m not sure is David want’s to sit back and wait until he’s 33 until the team might start winning again.
You want some effect of how Sandy has handled the past two years and how the players feel about it? Right there, Wright and RAD are upset and both know that unless the FO changes what they are doing, then there is no reason to stay in NY. But I do wonder if Wright is willing to take a team friendly/back loaded contract in order to keep payroll down so there is a chance to sign someone who isn’t in the scratch and dent bin.
well, veteran players are like a lame duck manager. they have different goals in mind. So even if DW decides they are in a rebuilding phase, and he is too old to be part of it, it does not mean that the team is “wrong”, or even that he disagrees that it needs to be done. And I think that comes through from his comments.
sometimes a team and a player go in a different direction. Wright is a bit younger than normal for that, but the concept applies.
any veteran guy wants his money, and for the team to spend big around him to go for it all while he can still perform. When it isn’t going to happen, they take their talents to south beach.
of course, no guarantee that where they move to is going to work out any better (well, unless they go to the yankees), especially when you follow the money!
USMF, this is not unfair.
The $100 million deals of today were $25 million to $50 million back then. Henderson was looking for $25 million and Rickey wanted the world to know it. Alderson didn’t want to give him that kind of money for what he called “just a leadoff hitter”.
Also, the A’s had plenty of money, but Alderson was a socialist and preferred 12 players making 2 million each than 5 players making 5 million each. When the stars needed to get paid, they were either traded or allowed to walk.
So dont look at the numbers cited in this piece, but rather the point which is in fact a strong aversion to long term deals and paying market value.
Understood, it may just be semantics, and i’m not a Sandy supporter…but just to blindly say that Sandy hasn’t given out $100mil contract is unfair because most of his time as A’s GM, $100mil contracts didn’t exist…same with $100 payrolls.
But to the point, Sandy hasn’t been one to hand out contracts that would be considered to be in the top 10% of the time? maybe it’s top 20%? I’m not sure…but it’s fair to say Sandy is not one to invest big money on any one player.
I also think that +100mil contracts are going away nowadays too….6 years ago Wright and Reyes would have made a lot more that what they’ll get now…Beltran’s deal from 2005 looks like a bargain in 2010, but was Beltran worth another $20mil more than Jose or Wright?
I think that GM’s are seeing that players can’t produce a high levels in their mid to late 30′s and after seeing big deals like A-Rod, Crawford, Bay and several others and realizing that deals like that are just not worth the risk. Sooner or later players are going to have to realize that it’s not open spending on FA’s anymore.
USMF: “Sandy hasn’t been one to hand out contracts that would be considered to be in the top 10% of the time?”
Yes he did. See my response below re: Dave Stewart and Jose Canseco. Both broke records in the sport.
Yeah, i saw that..if you’re correct (which I’m not doubting you) than that is good information and a lot better than the blanket and misleading statement about the lack of $100 mil contracts from Sandy.
It’s information that I didn’t know for sure and didn’t feel looking up contracts from the 80′s and 90′s…that’s why I made the statement as a question and not as a fact.
There is a big difference between Sandy of the 80′s and Sandy of the 90′s and beyond.
With the A’s he could and did spend freely and he won…then he couldn’t spend and the team sucked. In SD he didn’t have much to spend and the team tanked…here, I think he’s a Selig/MLB plant to control the team and get them the Mets in the Black…so who knows if or when he’ll be able to spend any money.
You can read an old newspaper article here about Canseco
Headline “Canseco Signs Record Contract”
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19900628&id=NfxNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kIsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6795,5196334
That article also has quotes from Sandy Alderson.
Also a contract milestone watch by SI
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1102/mlb-milestone-contracts/content.10.html
As for Dave Stewart
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yQwSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NuoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3872,4846522&hl=en
Let me know if those links don’t work.
But there’s absolutely no way anybody can tell me Alderson doesn’t have the “dna” to offer big contracts when he TWICE in six months set records with Oakland contract extensions.
To add to it – In 1989, Rickey Henderson signed a 5 year contract with Oakland
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/02/sports/angels-and-langston-agree-on-16-million.html?src=pm.
Henderson in year 2 of that contract made the highest annual salary tied with Mark Davis – which Sandy then topped with Dave Stewart.
So that’s THREE contracts within a year.
As the show I never watch anymore says… “Myth…Busted.”
The reality is, is doesn’t really matter what he did in the past…the situations are completely different.
The only thing that matters what he is going to do and I’m not sure if he has the freedom to do anything.
If Jose got 6 at $106mil + a $22mil option, what is Wright worth? will Sandy give him a similar deal?
I’d argue that Wright is more valuable to the Mets than he is to any other club. How much money does Wright bring in with merchandising? How many future Mets fans will we have because little kids love Wright? I know if it weren’t for Doc and Straw, I may not be a Met fan today.
Now you add in the fact that Wright has made it public that he want’s to know the teams direction and wants the team to spend money and add a player…how does that factor in?
I thought Reyes had as much value as Wright and even though both sides said all the right things during the season…Sandy didn’t make an effort to sign Reyes…so maybe Sandy doesn’t value stuff outside the lines as much as I do, or maybe Jose was too much a health risk, or maybe the money couldn’t be spent because the Madoff thing was still going on, or maybe because he already had another home grown star, he thought losing Reyes wouldn’t hurt so much.
Now add in that the future of RAD seems to be linked in with Wright…who knows where this is headed…I’m not sure if any GM has ever had any beloved-star player openly question the direction of the team the way Wright and RAD have.
I do know this…this is the make or break season for Alderson…there are no more excuses…how he proceeds this year will give a true test of what he’s doing and the future of the club.
Anyone who spends this much time digging thru the history of Sandy Alderson has to be on the Mets payroll. You need to come clean. nobody goes this far back on their own time, google or no google. This is not agreeing or disagreeing with his moves. This is staff work, plain and simple.
It’s agenda-driven,
They go to those lengths to defend their belief in sabermetrics and moneyball ideals. It’s more important to them than baseball. It’s baseball based on conditions.
That’s what they want.
Why do you feel that doing a simple google search to find facts and newspaper clippings from the DAY things occurred as agenda driven but not saying things with no proof to be acceptable?
This is why politics work the way they do today. Because candidates of any party can say whatever they want and somebody will believe them and even if the statement is proven false – the damage is done.
Attacking me for providing sources and facts only furthers shows the divide between us as people not just fans. I don’t want an opinion or half the story – I want the whole story.
It has come to the point that it’s easier to let someone just spout of fallacies without any proof than it is to disprove them.
It’s really not that hard to type in Sandy Alderson Jose Canseco Oakland Contract into google.com and see results.
I’m sorry if finding actual sources is something that people do not find valuable but I do – I want the whole story, not what 1 fan remembers happening.
I don’t care if in 2012 Sandy doesn’t like big contracts, the point was he DID sign record breaking deals and if I didn’t do a simple google search here we’d be relying on people’s “memory” of what happened.
Don’t tell me the owners sign the big deals but then in the same breath say Sandy won’t sign Wright to a big deal. Those folks are telling half the story to simply build a case against Alderson.
Well if someone is going to say this:
“Also, the A’s had plenty of money, but Alderson was a socialist and preferred 12 players making 2 million each than 5 players making 5 million each. When the stars needed to get paid, they were either traded or allowed to walk.
Would you rather take it for verbatim or use resources that we have access to in order to form an opinion. Frankly I don’t agree with that opinion and someone took the time to represent some facts that go against that argument.
I think the only reason why someone went “this far back” in the annuals of Sandy Alderson history is there are daily arguments about the man on the site and everyone is digging to find proof that agrees with their opinion/agenda.
The thing is Salty, you can’t compare any of the three situations and we really have no idea what moves he will make in year 3 or especially in year 4.
I 100% agree and frankly the point of my “research” was to prove that even under different circumstances – Alderson DID spend money and DID have players signed to long term deals. You can’t just say he didn’t and ignore the truth.
I think its silly to compare 2013 Mets to 1989 A’s.
But you can’t have people telling me that the owners signed Henderson, Stewart, and Canseco – when its reported for example that Canseco and Alderson were negotiating while Canseco was on the DL.
You can’t tell me he didn’t want Ricky. He traded Rickey, then traded for him AND signed him.
If having an agenda means preferring to find the facts then call me Mr. Agenda!
It took me a young whippersnapper 15 minutes to find actual sources that I’m being mocked for finding hah
I agree. I also find hilarious that people still think that a guy that came into baseball 30 years ago hasn’t picked up one bit of baseball intelligence along the way and thus are still siting reports from his first year’s as GM.
I was off by 1.5 million. I thought he signed Canseco for 25 over 5 it was 23.5 over 5. Record contract at the time. So much for a guy not wanting to spend. There were 2 A’s on that top 10 highest paid players and not one Met.
He made Canseco the first 5 mil per year player which is like giving 20 million today. He signed him to a 5 yr 25 million dollar deal. The highest paid player at the time. He traded him after but he still gave him the deal.
Joey: The best way to explain the apparent closeness in stats is to look at the offensive stats for each up until 29 yeaes ols.
DW Chipper
K’s 100 or more 7 Zero
BB avg 79 94
OPS avg .887 .957
RBI’s avg 105 105
Hrs 30 or more 2 * 5
Hrs 40 or more 0 1
Swirch hitter No Yes
* DW had 27 and 29 not included while chipper had 30 included
In other words the detail favors Chipper. The way it was presented on Metsblog is like the total voting percentage difference instead of the offense detail electorial college where it matters. I did not even get into high leverage clutch or leverage index (Li) as measured by on fangraph. Perhaps in another post I will.
DW Chipper
Avg O WAR 5,2 4.9
WAR… Here’s all you need to know about that:
Wright’s WAR 6.5
Miguel Cabrera’s WAR 6.5
LOL @ WAR….
From howard bryant who sh**s on WAR and sabermetrics: The all-time leaders in WAR=same list of all-time greats using the traditional, meaningless stats. It’s still the same wheel, folks. Also, WAR is not a statistic. It is an opinion based on what a composite *might have* produced. Apples to what apples usually look like.
Hi Alex – I hope you’re doing well. Just to help you out with something, I’m not a big proponent of WAR either but there is offensive and defensive WAR that go into the overall #.
In terms of at the plate, Miggy is a 7.2 to DWright’s 4.7.
Wright makes up for points in total WAR due to his gold glove play in the field in 2012. Miggy does not boast great defensive prowess.
Hope that helps!
WAR is calculated in three different documented ways depending on your source. Sometimes the differences are pretty stark. WAR is not a universal formula and depending where you go slugging, home runs, speed and defense are all weighted very differently.
And that is why it should not be a reliable stat. I think in one regard it is interesting to try and formulate someones value in another regard I think it’s used as a geeky way to create a “top 10″ list. Also, having a one size fit all stat doesn’t really make sense.
Right, the only use I see for it is as a comparison tool not as some end all be all. Comparing a player’s total ability including offense and defense to another player at the same position it is interesting in theory….
One thing that does surprise me, however, is listening to the GM’s and former GM’s on MLBN talk about how it is used widely across the sport by GM’s.
Rob Neyer came out with a book a few years ago called “Rob Neyer’s Big Book of Baseball Lineups” and it’s a interesting read if you want to understand the methodology of WAR. He worked with Bill James so you know where he is coming from with the material. If you are objective, it’s a fun read and there is no way to “drink the koolaid” and start believing it. It’s just interesting to go back into history and try to use advance statistics and compare older players to new ones and see if it changes your opinion about certain teams and players.
For some players I had the “he’s out of his friggen mind”, but I liked seeing something different being presented about the player.
that’s what I always thought was the main purpose of WAR, to come up with a metric to cut across time and place.
but, it also makes sense for a GM to look at that too (not only, but also). The problem with trusting your eyes/gut is sometimes you see what you expect to see (or want to see). preconceived notions, selection bias, whatever you call it. And everyone is susceptible.
so, any other objective measure that you can possibly look at as a back-up or double check is very valuable. Of course every team has to decide how much weight they place on any particular stat. But, every team looks at them to some degree.
I am basically with you. You’re right about WAR is not statistical sabermetric. However I put it in to establish my credibiity of being fair and balanced. I do not want to be labeled a DW hater but a labled as a fan who wants the Mets to be competive in the not too distant future.
I am not getting into the whole sabermetric argument, some people like it, some others don’t. again, While cabrera hasn’t been a gold glove at 3rd base his defense has been pretty good. i am sure that the mets wouldn’t be this bad with him as the 3rd baseman of the team.
Seriously, who the F**k needs WAR to know Miguel Cabrera is a stud and David Wright couldn’t carry his jockstrap? Some of you saber guys are just too much. TOO MUCH!
Exactly, according to WAR. Dwright is the same caliber of player to the mets than cabrera is to the tigers,. which in some sense, it’s idiotic to think so.. But whatever.. Saber heads somehow love those arguments because numbers tell you so..
What scares me is that Sandy is one of those guys. That’s what scary.
That PPPA analysis who discussed when in the booth the other day was one of the weirdest interviews or moments I ever saw on SNY. This guy was actually believing that stuff was the main reason for the team’s results.
He was looking at a piece of paper, while in the booth, while on SNY, while on TV.
This guy runs a major league ballclub and that is VERY frightening.
And then a couple days later the broadcaster bring up proof that the difference in PPPA between the 1st & 2nd halves was inconsequential at best – like 1 pitch per 20 plate appearances…….WAIT!! I even feel silly right now talking about this and why am i even typing this it’s so silly!!!!
He was looking at a piece of paper, while in the booth, while on SNY, while on TV”
LMAO!! Bayonne, you sure it wasn;t a text?!?!
All joke aside, that interview was very disturbing if you’re a met fan. the guy has been the worst GM in terms of player acquisition and also consistancy. Horrible to say the least…
Lol, True that. I wonder though, if wright’s WAR is as high as it is with this sorry ass team, i wonder what cabrera would be like if he was a met?? 19.4 WAR? Because i do think he along makes us a playoffs contender…
Alex if you want to disparage WAR then it would probably make sense to learn about it. For me I am not a fan of the stat seeing they continue to adjust the formula, but in the end it is just a tool.
It’s a accumulative stat. So in the beginning of the season everyone starts at zero and works their way up and down. For positional players there is a Overall WAR that combines offense and defense and there are then there are the two breakdowns. The one you continue to balk at is the overall one where Wright leads Cabrera 6.8 to 6.5. Offensively Cabrera is at 7.2 and defensively he is -.3. Offensively Wright is at 4.7 and defensively he is 2.3.
If you look at the break downs I think you have a better picture of the player than the overall. Cabrera is a beast compared to Wright offensively and the break downs reflect that where Wright gets better defensive numbers and justifiable so.
Salty I agree in regards to people learning about WAR before they use it.
Here is the test I would love people to try out:
Player A 100 PA 30H
Player B 100 PS 30 RBOE
Who is the player with the best WAR metric?
LOL I’ll guess equal.
I just typed this above but I really don’t like the stat it just seems like a geeky way to create a top ten list. The reason why it’s fun to argue over what player is better and looking at different stats is one stat never defines what the player is. A one size fits all doesn’t make sense and that’s what it seems like WAR is trying to do.
I think it’s interesting and don’t really see any harm in trying to find the value of a player compared to the baseline but with everything it never can tell the whole story.
It wuld be one thing if they WERE equal Salty…The problem is they would not!
The guy who had Defensive help would have a higher WAR than the guy who got the hits with no defensive help!
The acts a player can have in a PA are not weighted based on thier contribution and some are not even counted at all!
If a guy had 30 Sac Fly RBIs he would not get credit for any of that. Despite the fact he could have driven in 30 runs in the proccess.
RS, RBI Sac (moving the runner over) are all positive acts that WAR and wOBA (which is used in WAR) ignore.
It awards RBOE and HBP but leaves out the what could be considered more earned act of IBB (since your only intentionally walked based on past acts you have achieved)
The metric is a total mess and thats because the guys who created and championed it were more interested in making OB players show up on the same list that used to only consist of power HR guys.
It is an end to a means because they want OB to look valuable so made up a metric that they can claim proves this by stacking the deck in OB favor!
David Wright is a class act as compared to the guy who put up his $100 Million demand before his agent, Peter Greenberg, did a thorough analysis of the marketplace. So David speaks his mind and lets the Mets know his views. Jose spoke only $$$$$. Very different.
Baseball owners form a de facto alliance, a sort of club, just like players do. Members of both alliances talk internally. Interesting to me is the word got out on Jose and only the Loria and Samson publicity hounds ponied up. The fact it was formalized just after midnight is only interesting attempt to keep it all kosher. Nobody else was going to spend a lot on a once upon a time great player whose legs weren’t what they were in six years earlier.
Why are you insulting Jose now? Wright always talks right, but you have no idea what’s in his mind. Jose wanted to be a Met if they treated him right. Wright want to be treated right and want his team to be a winner. It seems Wright demands more. $$$$. X
Since when is stating facts insulting a person? I followed it very closely and think Jose tried to pull a power play through a agent who acted like Irving (Pickpocket) Picard. Both Peter and Irving knew the Wipon’s were financially hurting. Actually I think Jose was naive and like the seller of a piece of real estate, he listened to a guy who overpriced his talent to keep him under contract. Greenberg made the sale but the last chapters in Jose’s career will likely be written in the uniform of another team.
Loria’s reputation precedes him – I don’t think there is any way Jose finishes out that contract in Miami, especially b/c it’s back loaded.
The difference between Reyes and Wright’s situation is Reyes’ contract was up – Wright’s includes a team option for ’13. However, coming into Sep ’11 Jose made it very clear he was looking forward to FA, excited to be going through that for the first time. He said it on several occasions when interviewed after games in Sep. Also, someone let it leak he was looking for a 100 MiL deal.
Wright, on the other hand isn’t heading into FA. He’s also been very careful to make sure there was no specific $$ amount floating out there that the Mets have to offer as a contingent for him re-signing here. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have one, he’s just not making it known.
Wright also said that if he doesn’t get extended this Off season that he’s going to test free agency too.
Both basically said, sign me now or after my option year I’m hitting the market.
I’m not sure why Jose gets bashed for doing the same thing Wright said he’s going to do.
If fact, Wright and RAD have upped the ante a little and not only do they want their money, but the also expect a real commitment to other talent to improve the team. I don’t think Jose or anyone else realized at the time how long this rebuild was going to take.
Wait, when did Jose ever talk about money? Jose did the smart “soon to be FA” thing and said he didn’t want to talk contracts during a season, said that he’d sign a new deal before his extension year is one was offered and said that he’d like to test free agency if he got the opportunity, but he also said that he loved NY and loved the Mets and wanted to stay here.
Jose is gone because Florida offered him a good contract in a situation that looked (on paper) like a team looking to build a winner. Sandy (right or wrong, not part of the argument) didn’t even bring any offer to the table or even tried to sit with Jose to see what he wanted.
The only difference between what Jose and Wright that Wright will have an extra year to prove that the past injuries are gone and he’s being more vocal about his uncertainty/displeasure with the direction of the team.
The Greenberg/Reyes team never mentioned they wanted $100 Million? That’s news to me. Maybe so, but it’s not my recollection.
UPDATE;
Jose Reyes is looking for a $100 million contract this winter at minimum, a source has told Joel Sherman of the New York Post.
“An exec interested in Reyes said, ‘The target is $100 million minimum. Until he gets a deal that starts with a 1, he will not sign,’” Sherman tweeted today.
(Published On Nov 14, 2011)
http://tracking.si.com/2011/11/14/report-jose-reyes-wants-a-minimum-100-million-contract/
That was what an unnamed source said, not what Reyes said…but at that point Reyes was already a free agent and it would be stupid for any player not to put numbers to what he’s looking for. Every star player who hit’s free agency puts a dollar amount out there.
While Reyes was still playing here he wasn’t talking about dollar amounts. The comment was made because people are bashing Reyes and how he went about FA but praising Wright.
Other than Wright has openly questioned the direction of the team, the pending Wright Free Agency is looking to be pretty close to the Jose Free Agency and really it’s all part of the Free Agent play book that almost every player follows.
USMF — One of the issues I have with the way Greenberg/Reyes handled their demands is that they tried to do it through the media. No one made the media the kingmaker. They tried to pressure the Wilpon’s. So to me they acted in bad faith by not doing it in direct negotiations. Greenberg/Reyes deservedly failed.
After the Willie salary fiasco led by the press, the Mets were not going ot negotiate through the press. Greenberg/Reyes didn’t understand this so they had to take their act out of town.
When did they handle it though the media? The only source was from an unnamed executive….
Jose’s Free Agency went much the same as everyone else…how public was Jeter’s last contract? or A-Rod’s? or Albert’s?
I really hate name calling here, but you really are an id10t.
Excuse me, but what do you think Wright has been doing? He’s been pressuring the Mets through the media all season long. I’m tired of hearing him cry about sign me now or forget about it. Show me your plan or I’m out of here. Show me your dedication to winning or count me out. If you dont extend me this winter,nothing will keep me from free agency. Are you only listening to what the Dominican said? Why is Wright classy and Reyes is… Uh tell me Des what is Reyes? Finish the sentence.
Why wouldn’t Reyes talk money when he was a free agent? What player doesn’t? Weak argument you have here Des. Very weak. What’s your point? That Wright will play for free? Wanna bet Wright’s next deal will be more than $106 million dollars? Not money, just bragging rights. Deal?
K Maxx — You set up a silly strawman argument with the question, “That Wright will play for free?”
Of course not. No one suggested that. So why do you bring it up?
Here is the gist of what I said but you claim to not understand:
David Wright is a class act as compared to the guy who put up his $100 Million demand before his agent, Peter Greenberg, did a thorough analysis of the marketplace. So David speaks his mind and lets the Mets know his views. Jose spoke only $$$$$. Very different.
What don’t you understand relative to what I said? Only the circus act down in Miami bought the Greenberg/Reyes demand, and apparently only to prop up sales of seats in their new stadium. They’ve already unloaded parts of their “can’t miss” franchise to balance their books the best they can.
I have no idea what you’re talking about…the only time Jose or his agent ever talked about dollar amounts was once Jose was a free agent and after the Mets didn’t use their window to work out a deal with him.
And those numbers weren’t put out there by Reyes or his agent…they were from a unnamed source…not sure you can say Reyes was not a class act. In fact, it was Sandy who acted classless when he didn’t even bother calling Jose after the season and making jokes about not sending candy when Jose said he was hurt when the only team he’s ever known let him leave without even a phone call.
Miami wasn’t the only team interested, but Florida put a take it or leave it deal on the table and no one else had made any real offers so Jose took it…and why not, the team had a new park in a great city and they had some great players and were looking to add more.
To say Wright is a class act over Reyes is just stupid….Wright is doing the exact same thing Reyes did other than Wright is demanding to know the future plans…once Wright hits Free agency, he’ll start throwing dollar amounts out there. It’s how the system works.
When you go out looking for a job, isn’t one of the first things you look at is the Salary? I lost my job last December, one of the first things I did when looking for a job was set what I thought I was worth…it took me a little but, but I got my number,,,I had to turn down other offers because the pay was way below my worth. Same for them, but they play a game and make millions of dollars and their careers are short and can end at any second.
Just out of curiosity….what other teams other than FL was interested in Reyes?
I’ll confess to not remembering any rumors, let alone offers, that he received other than FL.
I remember some rumors about the Tigers and Angles…there was another team that was rumored, but I can’t remember who…but I’m also not one to go too nuts about rumors…a lot of times they are media generated rumors to increase hit counts…
…I seem to remember that most teams took the wait and see approach with Reyes like they do with most big name free agents. Prince and Albert didn’t sign until very last into the off season.
Miami forced Reyes’s hand with the take it or leave it deal because they wanted to sign several players and needed to get Reyes done before they could move on to their next target.
If I recall those two actually came out and said they are out of it. I remember the Brewers being a slight chance but really Jose would have priced himself out of the market if not for the circus.
I hope you’re working now. Being out of work is not fun, especially if you have bills, a mortgage and perhaps a family. Now back to the point. As I remember, Greenberg put Jose’s $$$$ demands out to reporters. Wright never would allow an agent to do that. Wright has in the past always had the Mets collective back. He always says the ‘right thing’. If you don’t think there is a difference that’s because we have a different set of values. I don’t think anybody rides the proverbial white horse but when you leak stuff to the press — like Greenberg did — you’re trying to pressure the ‘other guys’. The press is getting a free ride here. Generally speaking, the press often tries to influence high profile negotiations as they did in this case. It helps to sell papers or influence. Just check out how the news media has shifted in recent years from reporting news to being an advocacy group. This sort of activity happened at least twice — once with Willie and later Jose. As I remember the Daily News and the Post were active on this front. The Mets will not make the same mistake twice. They obviously thought they were coerced to pay too much for Willie.
K Maxx — “Wanna bet Wright’s next deal will be more than $106 million dollars? Not money, just bragging rights. Deal?”
I don’t know what Wright will bring on the open market and I’m not into betting. But you seem to be claiming that baseball owners will find Wright more important than Reyes. Congratulations K Maxx.
There was not 1 time that Reyes ever publicly said how much money he ever wanted…
And remember…Wright is headed into his walk year….
Reyes in 2010…heading into his walk year never once even mentioned anything about being a free-agent…
Why do i feel like im stuck in the deep south whenever im listening to met fans whine about reyes and drool over Wright
You have a penchant for implying bigotry. Shameful. And what’s on your mind?
Attention Fred and Jeff Wilpon:
FIRE SANDY ALDERSON and his band of clueless goons! SA does not deserve another job in baseball ever! Every franchise he’s taken over has tanked under his watch! Not signing David to a long-term deal this off-season would be the biggest mistake by a GM in club history!!!
Wow, imagine if Wright never suffered that concussion and the Wilpons never built Citifield.
but he did and they did. and when you are talking about signing a guy to a huge FA deal, it is what you get in the future that matters, not what they did in the past. So projecting ROI is huge.
another thing about Chipper, if you want to compare the 2 guys. Compare contracts. Jones never was a top paid guy. His biggest deal, coming off of an MVP top-10 finish, was 6/90. not exactly lined up age wise, but Larry only broke 15 mill 2x in his career. So if Wright wants to be like Larry, take a Larry sized deal!
And Jones did work with the team and probably left some money on the table to remain a brave, including reworking his option years
Harry, good point.. But if we play the IF game we gotta throw in many IF to players, coaches, games, situations etc… Who knows what would’ve happen.
Yeah, what if they never forced Jose to play while injured causing him hurt himself more and screwing up two of Jose ‘s seasons? Same with Beltran or Wagner?
My biggest problem with the Omar reign was how the team never wanted players to go on the DL…
Aside from mentioning that at the time Alderson ran he A’s they had one of the highest payrolls, your points and facts are all spot on. Mentioning the A’s payroll would have added more thrust to your points. Alderson doesn’t do long term deals with anyone, including hall of famers like Rickey Henderson and Mark McGwire (who will get in when the false outrage era passes).
“Money or no money, a $100+ million dollar deal is not in Alderson’s DNA. He’s never agreed to any such deal in over a quarter century of calling the shots for either the A’s, Padres or Mets. It’s never happened. It has nothing to do with being broke, it’s just his philosophy.”
I think that’s a little unfair to say no? First of all, the first $100m contract didn’t happen until Kevin Brown in 1998. Which means Sandy Alderson wasn’t even with the A’s when money like that was being thrown around.
From 05-09 he was with the Padres and didn’t have anybody that would even be discussed for that big of a contract. So to me using his past is unfair because the situations were never equal to the Mets.
As for him mocking the $100m+ deals. He didn’t mock that they went to $100, he mocked the excessive nature of them.
Personally I don’t remember him mocking Tulo or Braun, if somebody has that quote I’d like to see it.
With regards to Crawford, he was right. And with regards to Jayson Werth, he was right so far.
I think they should extend Wright because it’s more of an investment in the franchise and the fan base than anything else. If you (Sandy) think he’s worth 5/90 then you’re paying 10-20 mil extra to not have your franchise fall into a black hole.
Oh and by the way
In 1990, Dave Stewart was given a 2 year extension that gave him the highest annual income in baseball history.
Then…
Jose Canseco was given a 5 year contract worth over $20mil during the 1990 season.
Canseco’s average yearly salary was the highest in baseball history at the time (topping Mattingly)
So yes he never signed a $100m contract but he also signed 2 contracts that put the most $ into a players pocket than ever before AND one of them was a 5 year extension.
As for McGwire as listed above – Mac was 33 years old when his contract was expiring and Alderson was 2 years into being told to slash payroll with new ownership and would leave 1 year after the Mac trade.
Those deals were done from the top, the owners who at the time were among the richest in baseball. Usually record-breaking, landmark deals are through the owners, especially these deals as Alderson was admittedly not a baseball man and just an organizational man. “I thought DH meant doubleheader.”
Wait a second. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say on 1 hand he doesn’t sign players to big deals and then when you see that he actually did 3 times in a year – say that was the owner’s doing.
Then all I need to say is Reyes and Wright (if he walks) was the owner’s doing not Alderson.
You said and I quote
“Alderson doesn’t do long term deals with anyone”
Which is false.
And I’m sorry but these statements in the written article are false and/or misleading:
“When he first took over as GM of the A’s, at a time when the A’s were big spenders, Alderson’s earliest move was trading 25-year old superstar Rickey Henderson to the New York Yankees for Stan Javier, Erik Plunk and Jose Rijo because he was starting to get too expensive and was on the verge of free agency. The Yankees signed him to a five-year extension after the trade and Henderson started five straight All Star Games on his way to clinching his Hall of Fame career.”
— This statement doesn’t give Oakland any credit for signing Henderson as a free agent to a 5 year deal AFTER his contract expired with the Yankees. Rickey wanted out of NYY at the end of the deal and was traded back to Oakland and then signed another 5 year deal with the A’s (Alderson as GM) The above makes it sound like they dealt Rickey because they were unwilling to sign a player to a big contract. Which is not true.
Here is an interview with Sandy about the Rickey trades
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/03/reliving-rickey-henderson-trades-with-sandy-alderson.html
“The same pattern repeated itself when homegrown stars he drafted like Mark McGwire, Walt Weiss and Jose Canseco all became eligible for huge paydays. In fact, trading hometown hero and fan favorite Mark McGwire was the last trade Alderson would make before stepping down as General Manager after the 1997 season. Canseco had already been traded and Weiss was allowed to leave for free agency. The Oakland A’s much ballyhooed trio of successive Rookie of the Years were all officially gone.”
I’m sorry but this is also wrong. Jose Canseco got his payday. He got a record breaking contract by the A’s. So the only pattern that repeated was the fact Alderson signed both Henderson and Rickey to longterm deals making them one of the highest (or the highest) paid players in the sport at the time.
In 1991 just months after Canseco got his big contract from Oakland he wanted out of there.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-09-17/sports/9103100696_1_esther-canseco-oakland-fans-jose-canseco
I`m treated better by the fans on the road than the fans at home,“ Canseco told ESPN Monday. “I told my agent to sit down with (General Manager) Sandy Alderson at the end of the season to explore playing elsewhere.“
Then Canseco acted shocked when he was traded in August of 1992.
Just if you want further proof
http://a.espncdn.com/mlb/s/mlbsalary.html
Rickey Henderson – 1989, top annual salary on the day he signed his contract
Dave Stewart – 1990, top annual salary on the day he signed his contract
Jose Canseco – 1990, top annual salary on the day he signed his contract
2 out of 3 of those contracts were worth 5 years.
How old were you when they traded Henderson? I am talking about how things were, I was there for trading Henderson and trading Roger Maris too I might add. I remember it all. If you are some young kid doing Google searches to back up your claims I cant respond to that. Lets get real and talk about what was said, when it was said, and why it was said. If you were still in diapers back then, or not yet past puberty, please dont waste my time. Dont believe everything you read on the internet and have some respect for those who were there and lived through those times.
What is your point? So showing you articles written AT THE TIME things occurred is out of bounds?
What are you trying to achieve here? I don’t care one way or the other if Alderson likes big contracts or not. The point is the statements made by you and this post by our great leader only tell 1 side of the story.
You can’t say he doesn’t sign players to big contracts when he signed two record breaking deals. You can’t say he wouldn’t sign Henderson when he re-acquired Henderson and then signed him to another record breaking deal.
I don’t care how old you were or how old I am. Those are the facts.
-I’ve given you an article written in 1989 to prove the Henderson point
-A newspaper clipping from January 1990 to prove the Stewart point
-A newspaper clipping from June 1990 to prove the Canseco point.
It’s not my fault that I am able to find sources. My sources outweigh your memory because my sources actually provide facts.
I remember Wally Backman being the greatest 2B I ever saw when I was a kid. Does that mean when somebody shows me on baseball-reference that I am wrong – that doesn’t count because maybe the person who found it is younger than me?
The point you made and the post made were that he doesn’t sign big contracts. I’ve proven the point is false – all you’ve proven is you don’t like listening to opposing views.
As I said, HE DID NOT SIGN THOSE DEALS. The owners did. Just like George Steinbrenner signed the Reggie Jackson deal AND THE Rickey Henderson Deal. What dont you get about that? Why must all you kids be so argumentative, it’s the likes of you that keep me and others away from this site.
I’m sorry but I never saw Babe Ruth play baseball but I know how good he was. Age doesn’t matter
Here’s what I do know. The owner undoubtedly cuts the check but to sit here and say Sandy Alderson as GM had nothing to do with those contracts is unproven.
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-27/sports/sp-397_1_jose-canseco
LA Times – May, 1990.
A’s General Manager Sandy Alderson, who began negotiations with Canseco’s agent, Dennis Gilbert, on a multiyear contract Tuesday, doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
“He’s making it tough on us,” Alderson said of Canseco’s daily display of power. “We might have to go from negotiating to begging.”
Canseco seems destined to make Don Mattingly and Will Clark look like paupers.
In the culmination of baseball’s madcap salary signings of last winter, Clark agreed to a four-year, $13.2-million contract with the San Francisco Giants, and Mattingly signed a five-year, $19.3-million deal with the New York Yankees. Outstanding players, those two first basemen, but their overall skills don’t compare with Canseco’s.”
So the LA Times reports that Sandy Alderson began negotiations with Jose Canseco in May of 1990. But Dick Young Lives says it was the owners and because I’m younger than him it negates the facts.
Here’s an interview with Scott Boras
Question: The Alex Rodriguez contract has drawn heavy criticism from throughout the baseball industry. Major League Baseball executive vice president Sandy Alderson, himself a former general manager, said he was “stupefied” by the size of the deal. How do you respond to those attacks?
Answer: The criticisms, ironically, come from the people who are trying to grow the game. When Sandy Alderson was a general manager, he followed the same format, and that was being competitive [in salary negotiations]. And I don’t know how that worked out for Sandy, but all I know is the Oakland Athletics franchise is still here, and back then that franchise was considered to be one of the more pre-eminent franchises in the game.
It’s very difficult for me to have someone who now works for the Commissioner’s Office unilaterally grade these contracts. Particularly when he was a participant in the process and made one player the highest-paid player in the game by far [Alderson's A's signed Jose Canseco for $4.7 million per year in June 1990, eclipsing the record $3.75 million annual salary then held by Will Clark].
For someone now working for the Commissioner’s Office to speak disparagingly about it is like the president of the Campbell’s Soup company going into the grocery store, dropping a can off the shelf, stepping on it, scuffing it up and then putting it back and saying, “Come buy our soup.” It’s not going to work.
Apples and Oranges I say!
Sure Sandy cut big checks when he had to try and maintain the team that just won the WS otherwise they form a lynch mob in Oakland and string him up for dismantling a WS winner!
But how long were those signings with the team after they got thier payday?
Big Difference in spending to maintain a winning team and spending to build one.
Sandy has never spent on a team that needed spending and the only times he even spent was when he was forced to spend or lose his fans.
WHich is about where he is on thie Wright signing.
If he does sign Wright it will most likely be because Wilpon insisted not because Sandy wants to spend that money to keep him.
Metsie – I’m not arguing that 1990 matters in 2012. This post and the backing comments did. I was merely pointing out the flaw in the argument is that Sandy DID give out big contracts, record breaking in fact. So you can’t tell me its not in his DNA or not his style when I have easily found evidence that he did it 3 times in a year.
I’m not saying because he signed Canseco that means he will sign Wright. I’m saying because he signed Canseco proves he is willing to pay players big contracts during his career.
Well as I said the reasons for the spending had a lot do to with maintaining a winning team and the focus up til then was gain the respect of fans and not spending it would have ruined all they had done till then….While I think his baseball smarts are dubious at best no one can say he doesn’t understand the important of PR and public opinion.
But consider he then went and got rid of all those guys he gave big contracts to before the ownership changed and was forced to go that moneyball route?
He trashed Canseco pretty badly before he finally traded him.
Perhaps it was the reason he has never spent big money on anyone since?
Maybe he felt he got burned by doing it?
I think (and I’m not going to suggest I can prove this) his spending had more to do with the transition phase he was in at the time going from Eisenhardt having the control over that team to where Sandy was finally given the final say over decisions.
When he paid those guys Eisenhardt was still there and as soon as he left thats when the rift (and subsequent trades of) between Sandy and the expensive players started.
So who can say who put the onus on the spending at the time. There is evidence he pushed for Henderson. Henderson probably looked very good statistically as well as physically from a baseball perspective.
All I know is he has not spent again since then and I have always said about Sandy is his spending issues have to do more with the fact the market (and payroll) has gone right past his 90′s sensibility of what players are worth which is why he cringes every year when the top FA signs a big contract.
He did his best work in the days when the Team had pretty much all the power but the players (Agents) pretty much run the roost now.
IMO if he signs Wright it will be because Wilpon told him to not because he wants to pay Wright whatever it is he is going to get.
So DYL you’re saying Walter Haas signed those record breaking deals and not Alderson. Walter Haas was one of the most hands off owners in sports when he owned the A’s. That’s pure conjecture on your part. I don’t care what you think you remember. I was around then too and the A’s owner never interfered with his baseball people.
Alderson was just a Harvard grad who got the job as GM because he was the owners lawyer. He had no baseball acumen whatsoever and most of the bigger deals were through ownership. Alderson didn’t have the reins until his friends sold the team and after 2 or 3 years with a slashed payroll he left. Billy Beane was a huge upgrade over Alderson and a real legitimate baseball person. Alderson would have never been given a GM job in baseball if not for his wealthy clients.
“Alderson was just a Harvard grad who got the job as GM because he was the owners lawyer.”
No, he was the A’s legal council before being promoted to GM.
Oh… He was their legal counsel, not their lawyer. I had to read this comment three times to see what the point of it was. The most useless comment in the history of the web.
Oh there is a BIG difference didn’t you notice?
They are spelled differently!
LOL
big difference between being the Teams counsel, and the owenrs private lawyer.
Enlighten us on the difference Stick…
Well for example, David Cohen is the Mets General Counsel yet he was not representing Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz in the Picard suit – Robert Wise was.
Cohen manages a four-person team of lawyers who for example help the Mets get the deal for Citi Field finalized and the construction etc.
Cohen describing his role to law students
“In particular, if you’re ultimately going to be working in-house in a fairly small legal department, which I know certainly most sports teams and sports organizations tend to have small, fairly small legal departments, then certainly, it’s very valuable to receive training at a law firm first. I think it may be different for people who are going to be working for a company that has a very large and diverse in-house staff, then you may be able to be trained in that environment. But for the job here, it was critical to have some sort of training for a few years at a law firm first.”
Cohen also was the one dealing with the KRod stuff when they tried to get his contract voided due to the arrest/injury.
Fred Wilpon’s personal lawyers do not handle METS business. Cohen does.
I’m killin it with the research today lol
Lawyers are like Doctors dude…
Specialists…
You don’t use your MD to perform your brain surgery either!
And you don’t use a Business lawyer in a Civil Suit.
Just as you wouldn’t use one in a Divorce proceeding.
These guys like Sandy and Cohen are the MDs of the Lawyer world…
General Counsel = General Practitioner
And when a specialist is required you ask that counsel who is the best guy to hire for that legal action and hire him!
Here’s another example for you on the difference between MLB team General Counsel and team owner’s lawyers.
http://www.law.com/corporatecounsel/PubArticleCC.jsp?id=900005486081&slreturn=20120901155230
Silverman has been associated with the club for a few years before he was officially hired. In 1993, while working for Dickie McCamey & Chilcote, the Pirates became a client of the firm. The organization never had an in-house general counsel and relied on outside counsel instead.
Silverman was assigned to work with the club, primarily to handle their salary arbitration cases. Over the years, he began doing additional work for the baseball operations department, such as assisting the team in contract negotiations
In 2001, David Littlefield became the general manager of the club. Littlefield came from an organization that had a lawyer assist the general manager on all aspects of baseball operations. He wanted the same thing for the Pirates and because he was impressed with the work Silverman had been doing, offered him a front office job.
Silverman’s role and responsibilities as general counsel for the team are divided into two parts. On the baseball side, he works directly with Littlefield, assisting him on all contract negotiations with current players and free agents. He also assists him with any questions that come up in the interpretation of the collective bargaining agreement, the drug policy, the recent George Mitchell investigation and any other matter that involves the baseball operations. He also assists Littlefield in making sure the team’s payroll is within the parameters set by ownership.
Here’s another example of how the Angels General Counsel got his job (from the GM again not the owners)
Same name as Mets counsel, different guy though
http://rulingsports.com/2011/10/20/the-power-of-a-network-becoming-general-counsel-for-the-los-angeles-angels-of-anaheim/
Cause we all know every team is run the same exact way right?
What was Sandy’s specialty back then?
Was he well versed in Player contracts and arbitration?
Did he have experience in those areas when he got hired the way those guys you posted links about?
Because there is a difference between working for a company and working for its owners.
Owning the company does not automatically grant you unlimited access to all the resources. Mixing personal with company issues is how you end up in Club Fed.
There are also the implications of how you stated it. You are trying to pass it off as if he was some crony of the Haas family. Truth is, he was an employee of the A’s who worked his way up.
See Above….
Funny I notice you guys don’t make the same distinctions you just tried to make when it comes to Wilpon having to throw his personal money at the team though….
He has no right to use the team resources yet it’s fine and dandy for the team to require him to use his as the team sees fit?
Metsie – I don’t doubt that General Counsel for the Mets does work for the Wilpon’s on a personal level at times but I think we’re just sayin that is not his main job function. His job is Mets related and he’s involved in the inner workings of running a baseball team with regard to negotiations and contracts, arbitration etc.
So if Alderson did the same thing then wouldn’t it be clear that he did have some experience from his role as General Counsel?
The GM’s work closely with General Counsel…the owners don’t as much.
And Jessup to be clear I’m not claiming he IS their lawyer either…
We don’t know either way…
Sandy got the job as much for working for the Law Firm Eisenhardt was a partner in and they were friends.
It’s not a big stretch to assume that the family USED the son in law’s law firm for thier own personal lawyer needs is it?
Is there proof of that? I’m sure there is one way or another if you want to check out court documents and contracts involving the family…
But it’s a moot point and doesn’t really matter because when it comes right down to it Sandy got hired because he knew the president not because he had any baseball experience or expertise they needed to build a proper team.
He got his job the same way most people do these days he knew the right guy!
“Funny I notice you guys don’t make the same distinctions you just tried to make when it comes to Wilpon having to throw his personal money at the team though….”
It isn’t us making the distinction. It is the federal government.
“He has no right to use the team resources yet it’s fine and dandy for the team to require him to use his as the team sees fit?”
No, he can’t use resources allocated to running the team for personal reasons. He has moral, ethical and legal responsibilities to his employees and investors (and the City). The teams are not the personal piggy banks of the owners.
And no, he is not required to spend more resources on the team i he doesn’t see fit. That much has been made obvious with the Mets and many other teams (except for any requirements the league may have). What we have been saying, in fairly plain English, is that when the company is not performing, the owner may choose to invest more of his/her money to get it back into the black. If ownership can’t/won’t do that, then the enxt option is to cut expenses.
“First of all, the first $100m contract didn’t happen until Kevin Brown in 1998″
This is true but besides that here is the thing. The GM has clearly made known there are certain things he is not a fan of like long term deals but this does not mean he is hell bent on never giving out one regardless of the situation. This doesn’t mean that Wright will sign just that one should not rule it out.
Alderson once said in an interview that he is not an “ideologue” and went on to say the following,
“I’ve always found this. I’d like to think I’m principal but it’s better to have only two or three of those. Because otherwise it gets real complicated. So I think where things are important yeah there’s a way I prefer to do things but I try to stay away from raising everything to some significance it doesn’t deserve which then makes it difficult to respond to circumstances and change and opportunities and you got to be prepared to seize opportunities.”
The point I bring this up being that how they deal with Wright may or may not require a change in how they normally might have responded to the situation.
We will soon know I suppose.
“The GM has clearly made known there are certain things he is not a fan of like long term deals”
As did another former Mets GM, Frank Cashen. People seem to think he did ok.
Cashen also worked for the company that bought the Orioles which is how he got a front office job in baseball. He was a marketing guy for the national brewing company when they bought the St. Louis Browns.
I thought he was an accountant for the company that bought the Orioles?
Nope – being the young whippersnapper I am I found a source for you
http://magazine.loyola.edu/issue/alumni/2210/legendary-leap/all/1
“At the News-American Cashen became an award-winning reporter. He also went on to earn a law degree at the University of Maryland and work in the racetrack business—as general manager of the old Baltimore Raceway and the Harford County Fair. Cashen moved into the brewing industry in the 1960s, working as advertising director for the National Brewery. After Jerry Hoffberger, CEO of the brewery, became the majority owner of the Orioles, he sent Cashen to run the team”
You’re right. Hoffberger was the guy who actually moved the Orioles. I thought he didn’t buy them until they had already moved.
Sources! Right?
I can only imagine what people were alive remember about it. I should go back to just asking for stories of years past rather than looking stuff up ha
Yep and Cashen was never as good once Lou Gorman left!
Your right they both were very similar…Difference is all in the guys they relied on to get the job done!
When Sandy had Rigney he made a winner same for Cashen when he had Gorman.
Once both of those baseball advisors were gone the team went to hell in a handbasket
Or did we forget the Juan Samuel trade and the handover to the next business only guy named Harazin who went and created the worst team money could buy?
You mean Harazin who went out and spent a ton on all those big name players?
thanks for proving my point.
Who did Harazin work for at the time?
Who was the chief advisor to the Wilpons at that time?
Hmmm?
“Who did Harazin work for at the time?”
the Wilpons and Doubleday. He was the GM after all.
Well now you lack of living at the time is being exposed….
CASHEN was the chief advisor to the Wilpons and was being paid to advise them at the time without title!
Which is why he had to come back in an interim role when Phillips got into trouble!
“Well now you lack of living at the time is being exposed….”
You are jsut enthusiastic about being wrong. It is adorable.
“CASHEN was the chief advisor to the Wilpons and was being paid to advise them at the time without title!”
which means what? Harazin did everything Cashen opposed. Are you saying Cashen advised Harazin to make all those signings?
“Which is why he had to come back in an interim role when Phillips got into trouble!”
For whole week.
No I’m saying Cashen told the Wilpons harazin should be the next GM!
You guys seem to think Cashen was some sort of genius not me…
Cashen got two good players out of 5 top 10 first rounders when he was here…
He was even luckier to get Hernandez than Phillips was to get Piazza for what they were both gotten for!
And then he went and traded for Juan Samuel which is pretty much the beginning of the end of Met competitiveness until 2000!
Who aftyer all brought Harazin to the Mets in the first place?
Yes he did and yet if Buckner doesn’t let that ball go between his legs who knows what the outcome of that game might had been and how history might remember that era. Which is to say that sometimes even the best laid plans may require some luck as well to take advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.
I was reading an article about what the A’s are doing this season and it delved into how what is happening this season was not necessarily expected when they traded Bailey, Cahill and Gonzalez last off season. The results came a bit sooner than they prob expected.
It reminded me about 2006 in the sense the team was able to take advantage of a Marlin fire sale that prior off season after failing to be able to sign Delgado when he was a free agent. The emergence of 2 young All-Stars Wright & Reyes among other things.
Not to say that luck good or bad is the over riding factor in success or failure but that sometimes it does help or hurt. I always wonder what would of happened if Duaner never took that cab ride and we never had to trade Nady and he was in RF and not Sean Green in that Cardinals series.
I still don’t know what Cliff Floyd was doing on the playoff roster.
But that is another discussion.
Real quick, SA is one losing season away from tying an MLB record of 9 straight losing seasons by a general manager.. And somehow you will find the detractors and the SA lovers’ who put the blame else where while this man destroy this franchise and set it back ala SD Padres right now.. SMH
Wow, I didnt know that.
First it was 7 and now it’s up to 9 in one season. 93-97, 5 years and 2011,2012, 2 years. Add that up Duh, 7?
Well they only count SD when it suits the purpose.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone disagree with Alderson’s stance on long term deals?
that most of them given out to guys at the end of their peak years are likely to come back and bite you in the arse?
Nope.
Now, a deal to a 26 YO Beltran type can be a great investment, but to a 32 YO Werth? not so much.
Donal.. In order to acquire good players, you HAVE to sign them long term. if you get 3 or 4 years out of a 7 year deal you are a winner. It’s almost as drafting a guy in the first round and him becoming a #3 starter on a rotation .. no??
“if you get 3 or 4 years out of a 7 year deal you are a winner.”
First of all, how often do you actually get 3 or 4 good years out of those deals?
Second, that is still horrible and handcuffs you for the future, especially when those deals are back loaded.
“It’s almost as drafting a guy in the first round and him becoming a #3 starter on a rotation .. no??”
No, because
1) That draft pick still costs less than 1 year of any of those 9 figure deals and is easy to cut and move on from
2) Having a legit #3 starter is a great thing. Most teams are lucky to have 2 real starting pitchers get 30+ starts.
Well, i tell you what, get me the players who have signed long terms deal recently and you will answer your questions out of the top of head, i can give you Teixeira and CC worked out already in their 3rd year? Why? because they won the WS, holliday with the cards worked out, why? because they won the WS. Manny Ramirez with Boston, same thing. Not only i am saying they were good deals because they won the WS, but because their production helped them get there. a different example is Carlos Beltran had 4 good year for us, and while we didn’t even reach the promise land he helped us be contenders and before his deal was completed, we netted a what could be potential Ace. get me the rest and i’ll chip in my comments.
“Well, i tell you what, get me the players who have signed long terms deal recently and you will answer your questions out of the top of head, i can give you Teixeira and CC worked out already in their 3rd year? Why? because they won the WS, holliday with the cards worked out, why? because they won the WS. Manny Ramirez with Boston, same thing. ”
Last I checked, baseball teams had 25 man rosters. They may have won with those guys, but the real question is did they win because of them?
Don’t forget, the Giants won the WS with Barry Zito. Are you going to tell me that deal was a success?
“Not only i am saying they were good deals because they won the WS, but because their production helped them get there. a different example is Carlos Beltran had 4 good year for us, and while we didn’t even reach the promise land he helped us be contenders and before his deal was completed, we netted a what could be potential Ace. ”
Did their contributions match their pay though? I agree on Sabathia and Beltran. Holliday and Tex…meh, debatable.
Over all, there have been 36 nine figure contracts signed in MLB history.
From Cot’s (I think this is all guaranteed money) A number of these are extensions that haven’t kicked in yet. We can probably discount those as well as the ones in their first year or 2.
1. Alex Rodriguez, $275,000,000 (2008-17)
2. Alex Rodriguez, $252,000,000 (2001-10)
3. Albert Pujols, $240,000,000 (2012-21)
4. Joey Votto, $225,000,000 (2014-23)
5. Prince Fielder, $214,000,000 (2012-20)
6. Derek Jeter, $189,000,000 (2001-10)
7. Joe Mauer, $184,000,000 (2011-18)
8. Mark Teixeira, $180,000,000 (2009-16)
9. CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 (2009-15)
10. Manny Ramirez, $160,000,000 (2001-08)
. . Matt Kemp, $160,000,000 (2012-19)
12. Troy Tulowitzki, $157,750,000 (2011-20)
13. Adrian Gonzalez, $154,000,000 (2012-18)
14. Miguel Cabrera, $152,300,000 (2008-15)
15. Cole Hamels, $144,000,000 (2013-18)
16. Carl Crawford, $142,000,000 (2011-17)
17. Todd Helton, $141,500,000 (2003-11)
18. Johan Santana, $137,500,000 (2008-13)
19. Alfonso Soriano, $136,000,000 (2007-14)
20. Matt Cain, $127,500,000 (2012-17)
21. Vernon Wells, $126,000,000 (2008-14)
. . . Barry Zito, $126,000,000 (2007-13)
. . . Jayson Werth, $126,000,000 (2011-17)
24. Ryan Howard, $125,000,000 (2012-16)
25. CC Sabathia, $122,000,000 (2012-16)
26. Mike Hampton, $121,000,000 (2001-08)
27. Jason Giambi, $120,000,000 (2002-08)
. . . Matt Holliday, $120,000,000 (2010-16)
. . . Cliff Lee, $120,000,000 (2011-15)
30. Carlos Beltran, $119,000,000 (2005-11)
31. Ken Griffey Jr., $116,500,000 (2000-08)
32. Jose Reyes, $106,000,000 (2012-17)
33. Kevin Brown, $105,000,000 (1999-2005)
34. Ryan Zimmerman, $100,000,000 (2014-19)
. . . Carlos Lee, $100,000,000 (2007-12)
. . . Albert Pujols, $100,000,000 (2004-10)
For every guy you can crow about (Sabathia, Cabrera) I can name a guy who was a total bust (Hampton, Brown) or good, but not nearly worth the money (Soriano, Wells)
Another thing to point out when you bring up Tex or Sabathia…how many of their teammates are on the list?
I have to laugh at the notion that SA will be solely responsible for whether DW signs or walks. The biggest contractual decision in the 51 year history of the franchise is looming that will have a huge impact on team performance and PR moving forward. Do you really think that the cash strapped, controlling Wilpons will not get involved at some point? SA will be tasked with crafting a contract and working with DW’s agent initially. Regardless of SA’s management style history, the Wilpons will eventually sit down with DW and or his agent and a final agreement will, or will not be made. To start blaming SA already for something that: a) didn’t even happen yet, and b) won’t even be his final call, is just plain silly.
Not a doubt in my mind that all roads lead back to the cash strapped Wilpon’s Mets.
BLAME THE WILPONS… Right on que
SA is just another pawn employed by the Wilpons. They probably have the same regard for him as they do a grounds crew member.
“If you can trade a 25-year old stud like Henderson in his walk year for three scrubs”
One of those scrubs also netted the A’s 27 game winner and Cy Young winner Bob Welch.
And when Welch won that award – Henderson was on the A’s.
Another one of those scrubs, brought Henderson BACK to Oakland in 89.
Sorry I don’t mean to be a pest – I just truly feel this is telling 1 side of the story.
Just saw this comment after I replied to yours up above. You my young friend, clearly have an agenda and his name is Sandy Alderson.
to paraphrase Stephen Colbert
Reality has an Alderson bias.
Call me when David Wright has a ring on his finger or makes other players in the lineup better just by his presence like Chipper does.
Call me when David Wright has a ring on his finger or makes other players in the lineup better just by his presence like Chipper does”
Lmao, ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg!!! the CORE sure as hell salute you… Lol, while i actually thought about saying this, i admit i did not wanna post it because of all the negative comments and reaction i was gonna get and it’s monday and i didn’t wanna engage etc..
RING RING……..what does having a ring have to do with it? A team has never won a WS because of one guy.
I still don’t get the constant need to compare Wright to Chipper. Of course Wright isn’t going to match up completely with Chipper. Chipper should be a first ballot HOF.
Perhaps you should compare Wright to Zimmerman, Beltre, Rolen, etc?
No offense TRS, but beltre is better, zimmerman more or less better or same player, Rolen if you compare careers, has been better.. now, while a lot of time is left, you can’t help but wonder his steady decline in second halves the past few years and wonder if his best years are already long gone..
I think each of those are debatable and worthy of a post, however I don’t think it’s fair to keep comparing him Chipper.
It was a Chipper Jones weekend. Even our SNY booth talked at length – each day, about Chipper Jones. Don’t know how many times they showed his parents in the stands, the snippets from Friday night’s ceremony, the cheering for every Chipper at bat and plays he made on the field.
The Mets just had the bad luck of being the team playing the Braves in their last regular season homestand for the ’12 season in the year Chipper was retiring. And actually, I watched all 3 games and it didn’t really bother me all that much. Kind of figures though.
I believe SNY either Sat or yesterday put up that graphic comparing the two. So we can blame them.
Comparing how many rings each have though is ridiculous. Rings are a team accomplishment, not a player accomplishment. There are several HOF inductees that never won a ring.
Alex68 — “zimmerman more or less better or same”
Well which one is it. Is it more? Is it less? Is it the same? Covering all bases aren’t you?
Another Chipper Jones/David Wright comparison? Yeesh! Only on a fan site can this stuff exists.
There is NO comparing David Wright and Chipper Jones. Not now and not in the next lifetime.
The only thing that any similarity in numbers can be useful for is for agents and negotiators and not their respective game that’s for sure.
That’s not what the numbers say. Oh, sorry. I forgot that you don’t like numbers. You know from your eyes. LOL.
SNY needs to stop creating these manufactured dramas on the air or on their blogs. It’s bordering on the absurd now. I don’t blame you for carrying on the chatter, I blame them for starting it in the first place.