24
2012
The Backstory To The Pagan Trade
An article by 
Andy Martino of the Daily News sheds some light on some of the circumstances that may have led to the Angel Pagan trade last off season.
Apparently the former Met was plagued with with bouts of depression after taking over the center field job from Carlos Beltran and then getting off to a slow start at the plate, batting .159 in April.
Things got worse as injuries and a chronic medical condition only added to what had become an overall malaise that had taken over the gifted center fielder.
Happy and chatty during a breakout season in 2010, Pagan wore headphones and a scowl during most of his time in the clubhouse the next year, often sitting at his locker and staring at an iPad instead of interacting with teammates. Those teammates noticed, and many were aggravated on July 24, when Pagan left a game in Miami with what he called dehydration.
“He’s ( f——) soft,” one player said that day – which might have been unfair, but was the internal opinion at the time.
Martino adds that during that game in August when Pagan was due up and he was nowhere to be found, he was actually in the bathroom after his colitis had acted up in the last inning, causing him to have an accident while in the field.
“Angel isn’t a bad guy, but we needed to move him,” said one Mets official this week, knowing that Pagan enjoyed a competent year in center field for the National League West champion Giants, batting .288 with a .338 on-base percentage and eight home runs – and that Torres, the outfielder the Mets received for Pagan, batted .230 in 132 games. Reliever Ramon Ramirez, the final component of the deal, was even worse.
As for the trade, Martino explains how it went down:
The Mets had long been contemplating non-tendering Pagan , which would have ended his stay with them, while yielding no return. So when San Francisco GM Brian Sabean entered the Mets’ suite at the Hilton Anatole in Dallas during last year’s winter meetings and said he was ready to deal – well, Sandy Alderson was ready, too.
Looks like a change of scenery was the best thing for Angel, and that he has found his way back to being the player we all saw and loved in 2009 and 2010. Depression is a terrible thing and from seeing it effect some in my own family, I can tell you it has a way of leading to other more serious medical conditions. I’m glad to hear he’s doing better and that he’s been healthy all season.
Pagan expressed shock when he first learned that he had been traded. But it now looks like it was the best thing that could of happened for him. And for the Giants too.
As I’m writing this, Pagan just lined his second double of the game and then scored the Giants’ seventh run in a game one rout over the Tigers. That’s the Angel Pagan I’ll remember.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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I wish Angel the best on the field (except vs. Mets) and off.
Pagan was and is an average player. The trade looked even at the time and all of us figured we at least got a competent Cf ( we didn’t) and a good bullpen arm ( we really, really didn’t). Sandy lost that one. But let’s stop pretending Angel Pagan was some great player.
He is a pretty decent player to me. And he will improve.
In between Mike Trout and Andres Torres, there is an inbetween…
No one said Pagan was going to the HOF…
but it is w/o a doubt he has been the BEST met OF since 2009…
He has grossly outperformed Jason Bay at a FRACTION of the cost
this story has so much BS in it its not even funny…
Pagan had his best stats when Beltran was not on the team..
Pagan – 2009 ..Beltran was mostly on the DL
Pagan – 2010 …Beltran didnt come back til July
Pagan did just fine w/o Beltran in the dugout…
maybe…just maybe….Andy Martino cant write a story on how maybe the Mets were trying to force a different approach down Angel Pagan’s throat…even though he just came off 2 straight career years…
because i have heard that THIS was the reason behind his dramatic drop-off and as soon as he went back to the Angel Pagan that DID not worry so much about PPA…he was nice and “happy” again…
of course Andy Martino cant sell papers with that…so he’ll make up some sh*t that has a lil bit more National Enquirer feel to it…
Yup – I agree. Had the pleasure of meeting Pagan in 2010. We discussed his ability to bear down in his at bats & how he’s able to concentrate his focus. Needless to say, he’s a pretty intense ball player.
Pagan is a physical specimen. His forearms and hands have muscles upon muscles and, rumor has it, he’s faster that Jose Reyes. Not at all surprised that he’s succeeding out in San Fran.
As to his 2011 experience, it was quite clear that in the hierarchy of ball players – Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Bay, Pagan – Angel was on the lowest rung in Terry Collins dugout. I’ve stated all along that TC showed uncharacteristic meanness when it came to the maladies that plagued Pagan in 2011. He took a delicate situation – Pagan’s colitis and resultant dehydration – and, basically, threw him under the bus publicly. I was appalled by some of TC’s comments then.
SA completely and utterly f-’ed up when it comes to Reyes and Pagan. He dismantled one of baseball’s best 1-2 top of the order combinations and received next-to-nothing in return. The lack of support the Met organization showed to these 2 fine ball players, both of whom came up through the Mets system, is simply disgraceful.
We were lucky to re-acquire Pagan after his brief tenure in Chicago. SA & TC had no clue about Pagan’s mettle and value to the ball club and it was this lack of understanding that led to this year’s anemic offensive output.
What the hell were they thinking?
Reyes? What a joke. How can anyone in their right mind even think the Mets screwed up by not signing Reyes to an outlandish contract.
This year Reyes earned his $10M. He remained healthy and produced basically what his career dictates. He even might do it again next year when he earns another $10M. But 2014? $16M? 2015, 2016, and 2017? $22M apiece? No way.
I challenge anyone to justify how Jose Reyes is worth $22M a year at the age of 32, 33, and 34. He isnt even worth close to that at the age of 29 and the odds are, even if he remains on the field for 150 games a year, that his legs will diminish with time. The other side of 30 is not kind to most guys like him.
As for Pagan, I thought at the time it was a good trade. Pagan, obviously, was not in the Mets plans. I will admit I did like Angel as a player but his absent minded thinking at times got to me. I also believe one of Collins biggest flaws is that he makes up his mind about a guy and that is it. This pigeonholing can cause one to overlook a lot of things. Anyway, Ramirez was coming off 3 or 4 terrific years as a reliever, something the Mets sorely needed. Torres, while not a fabulous player, was suppose to be serviceable. Sadly, the Mets missed on both counts. However, how much of that is due to the individual players versus the Mets coaches. Lets be honest. Ramirez isnt the first reliever to come to the Mets in the past 5 years who was successful only to have an awful time in the Mets bullpen.
It is easy to look back in hindsight and say that a team should have kept a player. Dont you think every Twins fan things their team stupid for letting Dickey go?
Agree about Reyes and that contract. But we all know that Loria probably has no intention of keeping Reyes for the back end of that contract. He took a big chance though that Reyes remains healthy when it comes time to trade him, otherwise he’s not going to get much back with that salary. I still think there’s a fare chance he winds up back in NY, just in time to take over for Jeter at SS.
Oh I think there is a tremendous chance he ends up with the Yankees. What other teams will be able to afford that contract for an aging player built on speed. In reality it was like he signed a contract with two teams. LOL.
Jose Reyes last year …in a DOWN year…was worth 20.1 mil in production…got paid 10…
Jose Reyes in 2011…was worth 27 mil…got paid 15…
Jose Reyes has 5 years left…
the first year he will be paid 10 mil…we both agree he will outproduce that…
the 2nd year, he will be paid 16 mil….I think he will produce at LEAST that…
now that leaves years 3-4-5..paid at 22 mil…
Reyes’s contract will look attractive as a 3 year 66 mil deal…especially if the Marlins pay half of that…Reyes can be a 3 year 33 mil deal…11 mil per year…in a market that is almost always a sellers market when it comes to SS….not only will they get productive years from reyes, but they will get him at a reduced price AND get prospects for him…
Reyes had a down year? No actually Reyes had a pretty average year for Reyes.
2012 .287/.377/.433 OPS .780
Career .291/.342/.440 OPS .782
And those numbers are NOT worth $20M. No all star appearance. No placement in the MVP voting.
If you think that is worth $20M a year, then Wright is a $30M a year player.
You got his slash line wrong: .287 .347 .433 .780
True, and Reyes should be sending part of that check to Hudgens. I guess we can’t give him credit for his successes either? Take a look at the OBP difference in 2011.
Reyes is a very good player but he has had an OPS over .800 only 3 times in his career.
Reyes was a leadoff hitter most of his career…
what is the avg OPS for a leadoff hitter?
what is the avg OBP for a leadoff hitter?
do u factor any of that in when u just throw up numbers?
Hudgens absolutely is a god for certain type of hitters….and a devil for others…
I think someone like Tejada for example …was already patient before Hudgens…someone like Reyes/Valdespin / Carlos Gomez NEEDS a Hudgens…a batting instructor like that will take them from a .290 hitter to a .330 hitter…
at the same time, someone like Pagan/Ike will suffer tremendously…their numbers pre/post Dave H are night and day..
And Reyes had the 4th highest OPS of all SS’s. Numbers don’t mean anything, unless you put them in context.
Reyes had a higher walk rate from 07-09 than he had in 2011. So Reyes was actually more agresive in 2011, than he was in in the past. I find it hard to credit Hudgens philosophy for his success, since he actually walked less than he used to.
I think he had success because he was a talented player in the prime of his career, that for the most part was finally healthy.
Ah but Vinny that is where you are buying into the negative hype. Hudgens isn’t preaching take walks. He is preaching them not to swing at garbage early in the count, look for pitches you can drive and then if you do get to two strikes then fight like hell. That’s where the PPA comes in. Now granted are all players listening? Nope. Does that mean that they won’t, can’t, shouldn’t? No idea. However, Reyes himself said that Hudgens getting him to not swing at crap early and pop up those pitches was a huge asset.
Every batting coach belives you shouldn’t swing at bad pitches. That’s not something new or innovative. Name me one pitching coach that says that you should swing at bad pitches?
So, if what he’s saying is no different than what every other coach is saying, then how could we credit Hudgens with reyes’ success?
Also, if you are going to credit him for the success of some of our hitters, would you also blame him for the failure of some of our hitters? Like Pagan for example?
The poblm is Hudgens isn’t just telling themmto not swing at BAD pitches….
He is also telling them to not swing at strikes they can’t hit well….
Which would work if the pitcher didn’t have the option of throwing strikes you don’t like to hit!
Thats the problem with “The Approach”
Fangraphs had his production valued at 20+ mil last year.
But you say its worth 20 mil…
lol ok
Reyes was hitting .225 up to May….started heating up and hit over .300 the rest of the way…
but hey, dont let facts get in the way !
Oh so you are a WAR fan? Right?
war = wins above average.
i was rating the production level in terms of money.
I am a fan of facts.
LOL, and how you do think they come up with how much the player is worth in Dollars?
Also, WAR is Wins above replacement value, not average. Big difference. I by no means swear by either but come on, you have to know that they are linked to each other right?
Also, I am guessing you would also agree that this past year Wright was worth 15M more than Reyes right? I mean fangraphs has Wright at 35.1M this year.
And David Wright hit .350 for the 1st half of last season. So what? You take the season in its entirety and dont cherry pick the stats you like. Who gives a crap if Reyes hit .300 from May through the end of the season. The fact is that he hit right around his career average of .290. 2011 was an aberration in his stats. As for $20M, fangraphs aside, Reyes’ numbers arent that good. If he was stealing 70 or 80 bases a year, that might be something. But the fact is he didnt even lead the league in that category (tied for 5th in mlb). So other than that, what is impressive about him? 37 doubles? 12 triples? 11 Hrs? 87 runs scored? Compare this to Murphy’s numbers and you will see other than SB (although Murph’s SB% was much better than Reyes) and triples, there isnt much different. So if Reyes’ season was worth $20M, Murph’s must be $15M. And how many people in their right mind would give $15M for Murphy?
Murphy?
The guy who was ranked the WORST DEFENSIVE 2B in ALL OF BASEBALL???
Fangraphs has his production rated at 8 mil value
Reyes is at 20 mil value…
but to u its the same thing !
lmaoooooooooo
o and FYI – David Wright hit .306 this year with 21 HR and 93 RBI
even after the mets altered the dimensions so he can pad his numbers…dude STILL hit under his career avg for HR ( 28 per year) .
the only people that wanna give him Carl Crawford money are jealous Yankee fans crying about A-Rod and idiot Met fans who dont know what to do with the spare space on their wall that DW posters occupy
35.1M compared to 20.1M. I mean your own stats prove how much better Wright is.
actually no…it shows that in 4 months David was hitting like Ted Williams…when u have a poor performance it doesnt take away from what u have already accumulated..
so if David was worth 50 mil worth from April-July…then played like crap from August-October…it doesnt avg out to 25 mil…it stays at 50…
o and in terms of leadership…
guess who our SS is training with and taking batting lessons with this winter….
hint hint…he is no longer on our roster and plays SS for Miami
super hint:
his name is NOT david wright
David Wright plays SS for Miami? Dang.
nope…but Jose Reyes is still a leader on the Mets !
lmao
Terrible comparison.
Reyes is the total package – He can run, he can field, he can hit for average and has extra base power from the SS position. Also let’s not forget the energy he brings to the fans and the team. And how he can sometimes get a pitcher off his game because he’s such a threat on the base paths.
He’s a dynamic player that can do it all. It’s a disgrace that a NY team would let a talent like that walk away for basically nothing.
And Murphy? He’s solid hitter; but that’s it – He’s not a dynamic player like Reyes is.
Jordany Valdespin has been in TC’s doghouse as well..
It’s not difficult to analyze the issue concerning Jose Reyes.
We didn’t even make an offer to Reyes.
If we didn’t make an offer, then we had no intention of re-signing him.
If he had no intention of re-signing him, then he should have been traded at the deadline for Gary Brown-plus, or some other blue chip prospect that addressed an existing need.
To allow Reyes to walk without even making an offer is unforgivable to the umpteenth degree. It’s well beyond penny-wise/pound foolish.
The combination of a healthy Jose Reyes and Angel Pagan was greater than the sum of its parts, as Wright would follow them in the order. To dismantle that combination without reasonable compensation is simply incompetent and detrimental to the health of the organization at the highest level.
Clearly, Sandy dropped the ball and if he fell on a sword for the Wilpons, then he must be the ignominy.
That would be “bear the ignominy”.
In a word, if they didn’t want Reyes around for any reason, then please obtain commensurate value for him.
Recently, I saw a news report that we signed a “can’t miss” 16-year old shortstop from the DR. I really wanted to puke.
THIS^
Sad, wish him well. Maybe ultimately the Mets did what was best for Pagan and the Mets. Depression is no joke.
Hevwas a depressed cancer in 2011, and prior to that had always had some trouble staying on the field.
Good riddance! People need to accept that he was just a blob of crap in 2011, running off the field whoever he had the chance. His own teammate said it best…”he’s f….ing sift!”.
Winning cures everything.. While i was watching the game lat night i couldn’t help but notice how pagan was happy, jumping up and down, celebrating, there must’ve been like 30 head shots of him in the dougout and you wonder why? he’s playing well, his team is winning and they’re 3 games away from the WS ring. Some players let their struggle get to their head and take losing harder than other players, that could’ve been pagan’s case who knows, but he definetely looks completely different than the player he was last year with the mets.
Ohhh, and one thing i’ll say, i was not too happy with the trade because you don’t trade a serviceable starter position player for a 7th inning reliever guy and a POS like andres torres to man’ed CF. Regardless of how good of a day some people thought sandy had, i certainly was not one of them. and looking back, i was 100% right..
I will agree with one thing:
” Some players let their struggle get to their head and take losing harder than other players, that could’ve been pagan’s case who knows, but he definetely looks completely different than the player he was last year with the mets.”
Very true, as I said perhaps for the Mets and Pagan trading him was the right move just based on the kid himself. Not saying in terms of production. What we don’t know is could Pagan have ever rebounded while playing for the Mets IF depression played a role.
Yeah, that is why i don’t even talk about this trade as much.. some players just need a change of scenery.. Jeff Kent was heard to be a malcontent and a guy who sulked while with the mets, but who knows if more of that was due to him struggling and the pressure of being great for being traded for cone. Sometimes pressure of performance can be a player’s worst enemy.. I think SF is a better city to play than NY, Ramirez was susccesful out there, yet when he came here he became a POS, and that can be said for many players who play in other cities and perform well, then they come to NY and things become way different.. Everything in here in under the microscope, Had we signed Zito by now he would’ve been ran out of town, yet in SF he somehow still managed to be in the roster and look at his performance yesterday..
Very true. Think about the difference if Pujols looks like Arod at the end of his contract. Playing for the Angels, who will give a damn? Arod in NY it doesn’t matter you better produce even if you have to use a walker to get to the plate.
Anyone had odds Zito would outpitch Verlander last night?
From what I was reading, even San Fran fans thought Zito’s shutout in the NLCS was a fluke and they didn’t have much confidence going into last night. While it wasn’t quite the outing he had in the NLCS, he certainly pitched more like he did with the As.
Just goes to show that what looks good on paper, sometimes doesn’t work out that way.
Looking at MadBum’s last several starts I certainly wouldn’t give the Giants good odds tonight. But you never know, right?
Yeah, i mean if you look at the fans here, we’re a bit more demandind and expect the best of the best from the players.. Players know this as well, part of the reason imo that cliff lee did not sign with the yankees
It could have been but lets not think that Philly isn’t a pressure cooker as well. I think Lee just wanted to stay in the NL and being the Phillies and Yankees deals were practically equal he chose what he was more familiar with.
Lee liked his year in Philly. Of course, he was also there for their strange golden age, when the fans were fat and happy (as opposed to the usual fat, drunk and stupid, which is no way to go through life son).
He has since seen a glimpse of the dark side of the moon.
Good for you…….
I know ball players have to expect to live in a fishbowl but was there some reason Martino had to go way out of his way to embarrass Pagan like that? I shouldn’t be surprised, considering the source.
It’s different if these players do stupid stuff to themselves like DUIs and failing drug tests.
We all knew Pagan had a problem with colitis but I don’t see what purpose it serves to to publish intimate details of his problems with that disease. That and his speculation about depression seems to be just that…speculation. ‘Overall malaise’, as he puts it – doesn’t necessarily mean a medical diagnosis of depression. Sounds like he’s reaching, to me.
Pagan might be one of those guys who does mentally struggle when he’s not doing well – especially when you’ve got a chronic medical condition you’re dealing with as well. He’s spent all of his career with the Cubs and the recent crappy Met teams so it’s a no wonder that he looks far better with the Giants this season. Good for him. He and the Giants certainly got the better end of that trade.
Agreed, I don’t care for the personal information either. However, if it is true that he is battling depression then NY could be an awful place to play.
It’s certainly not a myth that some personalities are just not suited to playing in NY.
However, just reading between the lines a bit it sounds like either management was down on Pagan and/or Pagan perceived that to be, which probably added to his down year with the Mets last year.
Not sure Pagan playing CF for us last season would have made much of a difference in our standings – especially if these hinted problems Martino is referring to between Pagan and the team continued. He might not have had the season in NY that he had with the Giants. However, we sure could have used his speed at the top of the order, minimum.
I agree, in hindsight it looked awful. However, it is very possible that if not traded he would have been non-tendered anyway. I know there are those that use this situation for their own agendas but honestly I think if they care about Pagan at all if the depression stuff is true then he is in a much better place for him.
apparently the disease only affected him in 1 season…
omg..the same season that he played like crap in…
maybe it wasnt the disease….
I think Angel…..had his OWN approach to hitting, which worked WELL…and Sandy has the Hudgens approach…which works well with some ( see Reyes/Tejada ) but not well with others ( See Ike, Duda, Murphy )
Pagan had a breakout year in 2009…another in 2010….Sandy comes to town…and Pagan IMMEDIATELY SUCKS AGAIN
Angel went from hitting .300 with speed and power in 2009/2010 to hitting .235 ..WITH BELTRAN ON THE TEAM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=paganan01&t=b&year=2011&share=0.30#419-489-sum:batting_gamelogs
Again…Andy Martino has a boss…who tells him he has papers to sell…or he is going to get fired..
this is NY
u dont want to hear any stories about batting approaches..
you dont want to hear boring stories about these guys and the technical aspects of their game
this is why player X can play in KC where there are 3 newspaper reporters..not 20…and have a relatively quiet non controversial career..
look at vince coleman…
he was fine in St. Louis for almost 10 years…
comes to NY and turns into controversy…
goes back to KC….goes back to being nice and quiet…
Bobby Bo…
fine in Pittsburgh..
goes to NY…he turns into Tupac
goes to Baltimore…is fine…
goes to Florida..is fine…
comes back to NY…and here come the stories again….
the same actions done in NY are almost never reported in other cities…
I cant disagree with you on the negative impact the media can have on players once they come to New York. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of it. It’s most prevalent with the Mets than any other MLB team as well. I once heard, so take it with a grain of salt, that the Mets have twice as many blogs than the Yankees and more than any other team in the game. It came from WFAN so who knows if that’s true, but if it is that only adds to the fire that is the NY Media.
I remember during a game in 2011 when Pagan was going through an extended slump, Kevin Burkhardt did one of his mid game interuptions to talk about Pagan’s struggles saying Pagan said he listened to too many of his teammates telling him he should hit for more power, that his teammates believed he had the talent to do so.
Angel said he needs to get back to the hitter he was and stop listening to too many voices. I don’t think Hudgens was the reason for his bad start. He got off to a bad start, got hurt and never really found his stroke. He also went back to making a lot of mental mistakes like he was making in 2009. He corrected a lot of those mistakes in 2010 and played an excellent CF. It’s not all that far fetched to think focus was part of his problem wiith the Mets last year.
2009 after he came off the DL he filled in for Reyes at the top of the order and filled in for Beltran in CF and he had his best season at the plate hitting over 300 with extra base power. He was shaky in CF and made a ton of mental mistakes.
2010 he for some reason lost the starting CF job to GMJ but once he hit his way into the lineup he was the most consistent Met up until he hit a wall in August and made hardly any mental mistakes at all as well as playing an excellent CF.
2011 he got off to a bad start trying to hit for more power and then got hurt, giving Jason Pridie a chance to play. When he came off the DL he started to hit a little better but never got into a groove like he was in 2010 and starting making the same boneheaded mistakes as he did in 2009 and looked like he never played CF before letting routine fly balls fall in, failing to take charge as a CFer.
Depression is nothing to sneeze at. That just might be what his problem was in 2011 with the Mets and why he frequently lost focus on the field, throwing to unoccupied bases, missing cutoff men by 10 feet and making inexcusable baserunning mistakes.
When Angel is focused and happy he was a helluva player, when he’s not he’s terrible. Terry Collins is also not the best guy to play for with players like Pagan. You can’t treat 25 guys the same. That’s why I don’t think Collins should be managing a MLB team. He doesn’t know how to handle different personalities. He also likes to pick on young guys IE Tejada and then placate veterans IE Bay and Torres.
In the end, the Mets are right where they were going to be even if they didnt make the trade. Pagan might have been tendered last year but he would be a FA now. Ramirez is gone and hopefully the same is for Torres. The Mets would not have gotten to the playoffs with Pagan nor would they really have won many more games. In the end, it was a fringe deal that means little going forward. It is akin to arguing over whether Cedeno was a good signing or not. Who cares? He was with the Mets, served a purpose (to what extent can be argued) and now he is most likely gone. No major impact.
If that unnamed player had said that about Wright today’s Mets blogs would be all over Martino. But it’s about Pagan so no complaints. It’s like a kick in the teeth. SMH
I don’t get into that stuff which is why I am not responding to that part of the article. Who gives a crap if some players on his team didn’t like him. As a coach, chemistry is important but you don’t have to love each other.
i think what maniac is saying is that the article is BS and if the subject was David Wright aka All-American hero instead of ( insert non-american hero name here —> ________________ )
the crowd would be in an uproar…
the reaction to matt cerrone after he called ike davis aloof was so bad, matt had to go and erase the comment
matt however can say ruben tejada dove into 1st base …incorrectly…for 8 weeks….
matt, and the rest of the SNY crew can talk as much junk about jordany valdespin….stuff u can never prove…ever….and u will believe it…esp since jordany cant speak english and talk for himself…
I know what part of what he was referring to was and I refuse to get into that here.
ok
Interesting take on the WS, “As far as the Fall Classic goes, during the last presidential election season in 2008, the Phillies-Rays World Series drew the worst ratings ever for a World Series. The Giants-Rangers World Series in 2010 drew similarly bad ratings, and was the second worst rated series ever. The third worst? Yup: the Cardinals-Tigers series in 2006″
Later i will post the rating for last night’s game.. As much as i care about baseball, noone gives a ____ about the tigers nor the giants…
On this date in history – 25 October 1986 – the infamous Game 6.
Now THAT was a WS game for the ages.
yeah, actually that has been the highest rating WS of the past 30 years i think…
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/10/23/guess-the-world-series-tv-viewership-poll-historical-world-series-ratings-2/154427/
Bud Selig came in 1992…it was 39 % net share..last year in 2011…it was 16….
and this is with all the exciting BS he has added…
extra wild card spot….
I’m happy for Angel and hope he has a monster post season! Does DWright realize he’ll never get there if he sticks w/SA and the brain trust?
Pagan isn’t a big market guy. He’s never been any good. Even in his so called good seasons nothing has stood out.
Come on that’s BS.
Angel Pagan was not a supertsar but. He had an injury plagued 2011 and his value was down. But even then he hit .262, & 7HR’s and 56 RBI’s. You knew Reyes was likely gone, you knew Duda and Kirk and Bay would be question marks. You needed some offense from the outfield.
The article claims “he had to go” and that the Mets were going to non-tender him anyway. Okay, so you had $5 million to find another centerfielder if you cut him. But payroll constraints made a package of Torres/Ramirez palatable as basically you got two players for the price of one. So the geniuses in the fron office decided maybe one of them would work out. A classic trade of one dollar for two quarters.
But now you have Andres Torres, 34 years old, coming off an even worse year than Pagan and had one decent year in his whole career. The chances of him being an improvement over Pagan were next to zero. You had just signed Fransisco and Rauch so the need for Ramirez was slight. So in the end, apart from the money, this was a bad trade on its face. Pagan was going into a free agency year and bad attitude or not the chances were he would bounce back.
The Mets front office deserves every inch of bad press they are receiving over this trade. And their after the fact justification for it by embarassing Pagan personally speaks volumes as to their character or lack of it. They were wrong and simply cannot admit they made a mistake. The fact they keep floating Ike Davis trade rumors and are doing the same to him doesn’t bode well that they learned anything from that mistake.
Here’s the thing in that theory of the trade being only about money. If it was only about money then they could have just released him and then signed two players to minor league contracts and saved 4M.
But if you just release him and sign two minor leaguers, it sends the message that you are broke and blatantly just trying to save money. That creates a PR problem as the Wilpons want to blame Minaya and his bad contracts, distracting us from the fact payroll has been cut to $93 million. The trade gave everybody at least some cover.
I am not ready to call Sandy Alderson and company incompetent, but they are the least credible front office in Mets history when it comes to dealing with the public, and that’s saying a lot.
What cover? So you are saying a broke team just threw 5M dollars away just so they could pretend they weren’t broke but then use the excuse of being broke? Doesn’t that sound counter productive?
Again, they had to have a BP pitcher and a 4th OF from FA and the Mets decided that instead of non-tendering Pagan and having to sign two guys in FA they would trade Pagan for two guys. IF it was just about saving money they could have just non-tendered him;
4th outfielder? That would be Scott Hairston. As I noted before, prior to the trade they had already signed Fransico and Rauch so the need for a $2 million middle relief guy was nil.
So if you release Pagan, fine, but you need a starting CF, not a 4th outfielder. Andres Torres was sold as a starter, who simply had a bad year. I agree with you that money wasn’t the only factor, but if Andres Torres was making $5 million, the trade never happens.
Of course it never happens. However, I think you are misjudging how the FO valued Captain Kirk.
no
there is a difference b/w being broke and being hamstrung by a contract
the yankees probably wont be able to afford josh hamilton
the yankees are far from broke
Sandy, Metsblog just said Johan is counted against the payroll at the tune of 25 mil
Johan at the MOST would get 20 mil….everyone and their mother KNOWS 5 mil is deferred off for 7 years…
what Sandy does NOT tell u is there is a laundry list of players who are due for deferred compensation
glavine – 2002
pedro – 2004
beltran – 2004
wagner -2006
saberhagen – 1995
bobby bo – 2000
hell even frank cashen got tied up in it in 1992…his buyout package was paid in a bernie madoff account…the difference with him is that he got his money BEFORE bernie got caught
what the mets dont tell u is that they owe a MOUNTAIN FULL OF MONEY to people they were counting on paying with BERNIE MADOFF MONEY
the wilpons bought and operated this team on BS….now they cant run it w/o their ATM
so yeah, they will deflect and blame it on Omar, blame it on Bloomberg, blame it on anyone but themselves…
blaming Bernie = blaming themselves…cuz no one is going to sympathize after they see how much loot they made off with ( pun intended )
As one who had suffered with colitis – which also brought on a bit of depression due to it’s fatigue and appitite -, I can understand what Angel went through. If one also is dealing with insecurity beyond the norm then colitis can play on it. This does explain why at times he seemed to have mental lapses on the field and I doubt it was playing with the Mets that caused such moodiness anymore than rooting for the Mets causes ours.
My employer supported me during that time and I made it through it which is obviously something the organization didn’t care to do with Angel. While one also has to admire Andres Torres for dealing with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, the trading of Pagan is a reflection upon the Mets for it was public knowledge as to what Torres was going through and this season we’ve seen first hand how that had at times affected Torres’ already poor play on the field.
And again, it probably came down more to money than anything else – two players for almost the cost of one.
As I pointed out Joey, it couldn’t have been just money as they could have just non-tendered Pagan and saved all the money they wanted to. I think it is what it is. They saw a reliever in Ramirez with very good numbers for many years and a 4th OF that could play defense and was known as a good clubhouse presence and liked those two more than the FA available at that price.
HI TRS,
Actually, the Mets just non-tendering Pagan in itself was a self-destructive move, though trading him for what they got from San Francisco wasn’t much better.
Even the sabers – Sandy’s people – thought so.
http://mets360.com/?p=8372
If the Mets just non-tendered Pagan after no attempt to re-sign Reyes, then I think others starting to question Sandy now would have started doing so then for there was no baseball logic to it. Neither was the trade for even if Rameriz pitched well, they created a much deeper hole than the one Rameriz would have fixed.
But you are still missing the point Joey. If it was JUST about money they could have non-tendered him and signed a cheap 500K OF to replace him.
HI TRS,
As far as Pagan, yes, instead of trading him Sandy could have saved more than $4 million by releasing him and calling up to rookies (one of which he did with Kirk) but then he had to weigh in the pros and cons of what such a move would have caused with the paying public – not attempting to re-sign our all-star shortstop and releasing our starting center fielder at the same time – being well aware of the growing mistrust of the fanbase regarding the reasons for the player moves having already been made.
It seems the measures Sandy has taken in terms of keeping the franchise viable for the Wilpons to retain ownership has only made keeping the team even more costly for them. I do believe these measures were taken in part because the Wilpons are out of touch with the fan base (beginning with Citi Field built as a shrine to the Brooklyn Dodgers and assumng fans would pay whatever they decided to charge them) and that Sandy looks at things in terms of dollars and cents and thus both never thought it would come to a point where they would have to give tickets away.
In reading the article, at the very end it says the Mets should keep an eye on Andres Torres who might get non-tendered.
I have had depression since 1998. It can be brutal if its not treated right. Once you get the right medicine, you are oftentimes good to go.
That said, I can’t imagine dealing with the cess pool that is the NY media machine. Ugh. Pagan is better off far from NYC.
I’m happy for Pagan, and that this was best for him. But anyone still saying this was the best for the Mets at the time, or that Sandy didn’t blunder badly, is oblivious to how bad our OF was and still is since Pagan has left. But hey we got Torres, awesome.
Well we have the FO’s side of thingsw would be interesting to hear Pagan’s side of it….
Metsie, what good will that do? What good did K-Rod’s, Beltran’s, and Reyes’s side of things do them? We have a base that considers anything a former Mets says a lie and everything the front office says gospel. Better off that Pagan’s says nothing and just emails his pals on the Mets pictures of his World Series ring when this is done. You’ll be sure to see those pictures on MetsBlog. When the players talk, Cerrone and Cleanup will be the first to to sling mud at them. You know that.
Your right…The Milk has already been spilled….
And there are some here who really aren’t interested in the truth just the story that makes them feel better about what Sandy has done and hide from that truth!
You know what is so sad Maniac?
With all the arguments, all the attacks and all the back and forth on Sandy deep down everyone agrees that things are worse not better around here and the only real difference is how each of us deal with it internally!
Some close thieir eyes and play the DENIAL game, make excuses for it and hope that they will wake up one day where things are better and the others just face the facts, deal with it head on and accept them without the need for mental subsidies to feel good about the day!
In the end BOTH SIDES agree this team is crap!
And whose job is it to see that it isn’t?
the GM!
Te rest is all about how best to deal with his failure…One uses Denial and Excuses while the other side uses Rage!
given the facts of the financial/wilpon situation, how much different/better do you honestly think it would be if they had just kept Omar? or hired some other recycled GM to clean up the mess (because no way in hell were they turning it over there to some young 1st time hot shot type!)
and would you consider the team better right now if they had traded everyone, started over, and won 62 games this past season?
A lot! Because your rooting for the Wilpons and I’m rooting for the team!
Omar would have gotten good players for all the salary he cut unlike Sandy who just cut it and got nothing back for it!
Other than Wheeler!
Let this be a lesson to some of you: Never wait until it’s too late to sell on someone while their value’s sky high. You can’t tell me the Mets couldn’t have gotten anything more significant after the 2010 season as opposed to what they got the following offseason.
Pagan+NYC+Depression= Recipe for disaster.
P.S. For those of you who will probably ask, NO, this is not quarterbacking or whatever. If you were here reading during the 2010 offseason, I was at the forefront of saying that Pagan needed to be traded.
unless they are having a fluke year at the obvious downside of their career, how does it help the ongoing success (AKA wins) of the team to always trade a guy as soon as they do good?
Would it necessarily affect the ongoing success of a team if you find yourself a significant player as an upgrade or plug in a player for another weak spot? For instance, Albert Pujols & the Cardinals. With the success the Cards had throughout the season, being one win of returning to the World Series, you can’t tell me that the loss of Pujols really affected their success. All they did was sign Beltran for RF & slid Berkman to 1st base (eventually Craig when Berkman got hurt). Same could be said about the CF situation we had (and still have).