16
2012
Teams Not Showing Interest In Ricciardi and DePo For GM Jobs
An article by 
I was inspired to write my thoughts on something that has been like an itch I couldn’t reach on my back. You know what I mean? Aren’t those a real pain in the asterisk?
I saw a post by Matt at MetsBlog that says Backman and Geren have not been mentioned in manager searches. (Yes, I know, it’s a slow Mets news week).
Anyway, it reminded me of a debate on one of our threads last week, where several of our readers and one of our writers were arguing about Sandy vs. Omar (So what else is new?).
One thing that popped out at me was when one of them remarked that if Omar Minaya was any good than why was he never hired as a General Manager by any other team?
I thought it was an odd thing to say considering the makeup of our own front office. In Minaya’s defense, he was still under contract to the Mets in an advisory capacity in 2011, and as soon as that ended he joined the San Diego Padres as their Senior Vice President of Baseball Operations.
It wasn’t the first time I saw a comment like that about Minaya, and I’ll never understand why some fans feel a need to keep knocking the guy as if he intentionally tried to derail the team. The other thing is that even if he were still unemployed, which he’s not and never has been, it is not a reflection of what other baseball teams and executives may think of him. Opportunities for general manager positions are much scarcer than managerial openings. It took Sandy Alderson almost 15 years before he became a GM again after leaving the Oakland A’s in 1998.
Paul DePodesta, who was hired as the GM of the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2004, was fired in 2005 after the team had their second worst losing record in team history. There were many articles calling him one of the best available GM candidates in circulation, but seven years later and still no suitors.
J.P. Ricciardi may always be remembered as the general manager that signed Vernon Wells to what is arguably considered the worst contract in MLB history. Time will tell if the Albert Pujols deal ends up taking J.P. off the hook, but deals to Billy Koch, Alex Rios and putting Roy Halladay on the trade block left the fans in city of Toronto in an uproar that was much worse than anything we’ve ever seen in Flushing. Since he was fired by the Blue Jays, Ricciardi also has not surfaced as a General Manager for any other franchise either.
It was believed that Terry Collins, would never manage in the major leagues again after back to back fiascoes in Houston and Anaheim that led to some bad press for both teams, bitter allegations from his players, and rumors of an inability to cope with adversity. And yet here he is – manager of the Mets – resurrected from the managerial graveyard.
The point is that nobody knows the reasons behind why teams hire the managers and general managers that they do.
Some teams look at one’s resume and character very closely, while others look at past results, winning records, etc. Sometimes, someone like a Terry Collins can come in with a bad resume and an ugly stain on his reputation and completely knock the socks off the GM that is interviewing him. Apparently that’s what happened here… He wowed Sandy Alderson and he got the job.
The other thing is that timing is everything. Sometimes you simply get lucky and you’re at the right place at the right time.
I can’t tell you why Omar Minaya has been out in the open for a full year now and why he’s only interviewed for one GM job in that time span.
Just as much as why I can’t tell you why it took Sandy Alderson 15 years until he found a new GM position.
Or why Paul DePodesta (7 years and counting), and J.P. Ricciardi (3 years and counting) have yet to secure a new GM job either since being ousted under tumultuous conditions by their former teams.
Sometimes it’s just that age-old adage that never goes out of style…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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|---|---|---|---|---|
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well, sometimes a guy does not want to go back into the same job (or at least wants a long break before he does!). So just because they did not get another GM job (any of them) does not have to mean they were actively hustling after them.
I could see Omar deciding that the VP job is more suited to what he likes to do and is good at. Plus, it is not a low level job. And there were cites that Sandy was approached at times about discussing a GM job, and declined to do his MLB stuff.
the other guys, they don’t really have a resume though that screams to get another GM gig. Though lots of guys interview that have never held the position at all. So in that case, I could easily see them having been kicked off the recycling merry go round.
Omar got calls from about 7 teams in the winter of 2010…not including Sandy who wanted him back on the staff…
Omar basically rode out the 2011 season…got paid a few mil to relax and field some offers..
He got an interview for the Angels GM position
Its hilarious that he got a GM interview less than a year from being fired…
Depo and JP have not interviewed for a GM position IN YEARS
and Met fans still hold onto the failed notion that these Ivy League grads were better than Omar
LoL @ the Angels interviewing everyone and their mother for the job. Here’s what CBS in Anaheim had to say about it.
ANAHEIM, Calif. – Wait, didn’t the Angels just get of a general manager who loaded up the team with bad contracts and underachieving players? Maybe Arte Moreno has a type, because the Los Angeles Times reports former Mets general manager Omar Minaya will interview for the Angels’ open general manager position.
The Angels interviewing everyone and their mother except JP and Depo
“Depo and JP have not interviewed for a GM position IN YEARS”
No, you haven’t heard about it. Do you think people in charge of baseball teams need to run their ideas past you?
Hi Donal,
Well, the Mets did let us know officially whom their selection committee was interviewing and those who were coming back for second interviews…..
just about every interview for a GM position is announced.
JP and Depo havent been interviewed b/c they both SUCKED at being GM’s
Omar> JP > Depo
get over it
well, none of them are the GM of the Mets, so I really don’t see why it matters or is being discussed.
Double Standard, DOUBLE standard, DOUBLE STANDARD.
My daddy is bigger than your daddy…
So, maybe they didn’t go in to interview. Doesn’t mean there is no interest. Stop pretending you have the first clue what is actually happening behind the closed doors.
I think a lot has to be said about what skills each person brings to the table.
For example, everybody knows Bill Plaschke is one of (or was) one of DePo’s biggest critics. When he was hired by the Mets, I asekd Plaschke about DePo and he said he felt he wasn’t GM material but is in the best role for his skills. He even complimented DePodesta.
With Omar, I think we’ve all seen and heard what his best attributes are. He’s a very good scout, and maybe not the best at negotiating with agents and striking deals.
Not everybody who has been a GM should be a GM again. But that doesn’t mean they lack the skills needed to work in baseball.
A GM is not like a 1B or a manager…the responsibilites and duties held by a GM, COO, VP vary from club to club
For example, the President of our team is Jeff Wilpon…the GM is Sandy Alderson
the President of the Cubs is Theo Epstein…the GM is Jed Hoyer
the President of the Padres was Sandy Alderson, the GM was Kevin Towers
All are involved in decision-making when it comes to shaping the roster…
the only difference is that the mets will never hold the President of the team accountable for his failings. When there is no accountability, you can never have a successful franchise.
All you are going to get is finger-pointing and spin from the usual suspects
Technically the President is Saul Katz and Jeff Wilpon is the COO. But JDD’s point is taken that they are certainly part of the problem. I will always believe that Jeff Wilpon managing to botch the Willie Randolph contract negotiations in 2007 undermined the manager and was a key ingredient in that year’s collpase.
he also botched up the Carlos Delgado free-agent signing…
Delgado’s agent aired out Wilpon the night after Delgado signed with Florida
Just in case anybody needs the quote from Plaschke
“DePo basically admitted that being the front man wasn’t his strong suit…a great baseball mind but terrible communicator…when he didn’t even call Scioscia for the manager’s job to replace Tracy, that was the end of him here”
You don’t call somebody a great baseball mind if you think they are worthless in a front office. And there is no way Plaschke would ever have called DePo a great baseball mind while DePo was with the Dodgers.
Also there was this written by DePodesta’s toughest critic
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/20/sports/la-sp-plaschke-20110921
“DePodesta has learned enough since then that when I asked him whether he wanted to be a general manager again, there was no awkward silence.
“No, not particularly,” he said quickly, strongly. “From my perspective, it’s not necessarily a great job.”
“He clearly wasn’t ready for the job, which lasted only two years before he was fired for essentially tearing the place apart. But I clearly wasn’t ready for him, and never really gave him time to implement the baseball sabermetrics that I have since come to accept and understand.”
Also just want to point out that things aren’t always as they seem. Joe, I’ve told you of a few sources I have and I can promise you that Toronto ownership had more to do with the Vernon Wells deal than JP did. At the end of the day, yes JP is the one who gets the blame because we as fans see the GM’s name versus contract and judge.
I have heard ownership was involved in the Vernon deal..
I have not heard the same about BJ Ryan, AJ Burnett and the other fiasco’s that make Ollie and Castillo look like low risk high reward signings
Not to mention bashing Adam Dunn, calling him the white Frank Thomas, then saying he had no passion for the game…
then he tells the world that he apologized to Dunn…when Dunn refutes the story, JP says he spoke to someone who sounded like Adam Dunn on the phone…
then there was the issue with him lying about a pitcher’s elbow injury…then revealing that “as long as HE knows what the truth is, its not really lying”
the fact that Met fans were excited to have this creep in the front office to me reveals that they have some real strange double-standards…thats all im gonna say
Once again, is it so hard to fathom that we really don’t have all the insight we need to make such a call? That perhaps there are many many factors that determine why a team does or doesn’t hire someone to be their GM?
Joe:
This troika just isn’t as advertised.
Hey, their job is not finished here.
We don’t limit our dumpster diving to players.
None of omars defenders can say he did a good job. He sucked and good riddance. Sandy so far has Wheeler to hang his hat on and nothing else. drafts take time to pan out so we will have to wait a few more years on that score. Riccardi made his name as Beanes right hand man in Oakland. That is his position here. Lets hope some of what he provided to Beane will help the Mets.
Please help me understand. In two years Minaya brought the Mets a division title and had a team with three straight winning seasons followed by an unheard of number of injuries and he sucked, but in two years Alderson has produced two losing seasons, made no trades to improve the team but has given the fans one whole kid who hasn’t played a day in the bigs and you are waiting to see if he is any good. The vocal Met fan base on this site is totally unbelievably……incredible… Only this small group of fans celebrates losing and pans winning.
But he speaks English so well…
Hey sadecki, when Alderson can pull a Matt Harvey our of his hat or deliver one division title, or four winning seasons in six, he’s just a hemorrhoid hanging out of Minaya’s ass.
Hi Ray,
Waiting for one’s draft picks to pan out suggests the general manager’s claim about having a “vision” was nothing but a smoke screen. Remember when he was first hired he told us 2011 was to be a transition year due to contractual obligations we would not have in 2012 which would give us more flexibility in filling roster spots and by 2013 we would be back to being competitive?
That is simply political double-talk for having no plan at all.
Im surprised Willie hasn’t recieced another managing job, and yet Collins who had two entire baseball teams hate him was given another team. Willie was okay, still wish he bunted instead of letting Cliff Flyod swing away.
Wllie at first was a victim and then his own worst enemy.
Victim Willlie: He was used to satisy MLB baseball requirement for teams to interview minorities: The teamsactually had no intention to hire him or an offer was made giving Willie no control to hire any coaches he could wanted to select.
Own Worst Enemy: Ungrateful to ownship for finally getting the chance he deserved by briniging up the race card.
Bottom line: Willie first got a raw deal then put himself in hot water.
The race card wasnt aimed at ownership, it was aimed at the media…
Willie always was quiet and reserved and didnt make buddy buddy with the reporters…Jerry did
thats why reporters NEVER had negative stories about Jerry in 2008-2010, but there was always some controversy about WIllie
if u dont get along with these reporters, they will hound u to death…
they basically took a happy-go-lucky Bobby Bo who was all smiles in Pittsburgh and turned him into Tupac in less than 6 months…
Bobby Bo goes back to small market teams…u dont hear too much about him…he wins a WS…does great for Jim Leyland…
He comes back to NYC…and the clubhouse cancer stories reappear again…then everyone and their mother associates Bobby with the whole deferred payment thing…where Bobby turns a couple million bucks into 25…
Folks in the media rarely mention that this was based on BRET SABERHAGEN’s BUYOUT with the Mets in 1995…
http://www.thebaseballindex.com/2011/04/28/new-york-mets-still-paying-bret-saberhagen/
the media…esp when it comes to BASEBALL is a lil odd…
Collins was a low-ball signing just like some of the players they bring in. He was cheap and already working for the Mets. If not for Alderson, DePo and Ricciardi wouldn’t even be employed in the game anymore. Nobody wanted them. All their hirings were a sign of things to come as I said at the time. Yes this was going to be a new era, but as I said it wouldn’t be a better era, and it hasn’t been. Team’s gone down hill, lost star players, there’s been no rebuilding through the draft, and most of all no creativity or a plan to take this team to a remotely competitive level. The Alderson era is off to an ominous start with two more losing seasons on a resume that already had seven losing seasons in a row. DePo coming from a historically bad Dodgers season, and JP was run out of town in a hail of bullets. Alderson also quit in Oakland when the money ran out. Quitters and losers are not going to fix our problems.
There’s that word again. “Creativity.” A buzzword that means nothing.
often the same people that want all the creativity have a cow if you suggest trading any player that they like (or is any good). So i guess creativity means figuring out how to trade Hefner for a stud catcher?
Exactly. Said the same thing myself. Dead on target.
Stick, is that all you have. I used the word creativity and you are having an orgasm redefining the word to mean what you want it to mean? Get your stick out of Alderson’s ass.
Lowering the standards of the site again by resorting to name calling. Civility is not this sites strong suit. Too bad because the posts are generally good.
No that’s not what creativity means and you know that so why say something so unintelligent, short-sided and just plain dumb to begin with.
Nobody is saying trade Hefner for a stud catcher. Creativity can mean a whole bunch of ways to look at building the team to try and compete. This is the 3rd year of rebuilding and it’s time to start putting fannies in the seats and they’re only gonna come when they see you TRYING TO WIN.
I’ll start off first by saying how stupid this is to even try and explain what we mean by creative moves and trades. If you don’t know what the hell we are referring to by that then i’ll spell it out for you with an idea of my own based on the future of the team KEEPING Ike Davis and Jonathan Niese and moving Wright for as best major league ready talent you can get and going forward without him.
It’s time to move on. The Mets are showing a foundation and have minor league chips to move thanks to the previous administration for the most part so now it’s time to build on it and move forward from the past.
The FO should be actively calling teams to not only try and find the best move for Wright (rental player/team that may want to resign him,etc) and if you can’t agree on a move than you start exploring/getting a feel of the possibility of a 3-way deal to replace Wrights production and research what teams need what and how maybe the Mets can fit in with Wright and make a deal happen that may otherwise not be doable between 2 other teams. Maybe a deal like this can grow to involve more players and possibly minor league chips on both ends.
And that would be only the beginning. I have no intention of dangling Niese, or Ike or any other player that I deem the parts I want to build with so that’s the way I go. But in the event I would get a call about those players of course I would listen. You never know even though i would have to be blown away. And even if i felt that way it may not matter depending on what you have on the backburner with other deals including the proposed Wright 3-way.
You guys should be EMBARRASSED for mocking the mentioning of creativity in trying to improve a product. You wouldn’t even know where to begin yet you scoff at a concept that is so basic in it’s relation to anything constructive or successful, so essential that it’s beyond comical and down right ignorant and honestly, quite prejudiced in it’s thinking too because you guys have your faces pressed down so hard against your fantasy baseball statistical analysis that you have in fact lost the forest for the trees.
So that’s what creative means. Trading the worst trade chip the Mets have (they only have five, so let’s take everyone else off the table and ONLY trade the guy who’d bring the least in return) and getting major league ready talent back. The guy with the shortest guaranteed time left on the contract with the most money on it. Well, I have to admit, that would be creative, since it’s damn near impossible in real life baseball. But go ahead making your fantasy trades.
Ok fine, you disagree with this approach. Now you come up with a few scenarios we’ll all be waiting.
Be creative
What kind of moron would overlook that point. I’ll tell you what kind of moron, the type that sits at a desk all day punching in a clock that scoffs at the mention of creativity as a means of exploring various scenarios/options with the objective of being as successful as possible in any given profession. It’s because it’s too hard for them. They prefer to follow a leader and let that person do all the thinking for them. That’s easier.
Your wasting your time Bayonne…
These guys creativity says that only 5 players in our entire organization are worth having!
and I guress that includes all the players these guys have drafted as well!
Although not signing half a draft class would limit the available chips to trade you have to admit!
Creativity – coming up with new speeches that say absolutely nothing using the biggest words possible..
The 5 people essential to this organization
1 – Bud Selig
2 – Sandy Alderson
3 – Fred Wilpon
4 – Jeff Wilpon
5 – Saul Katz
Hey don’t forget the importance of Mr Met!
He has to come over and shine your shoes once a year if you buy a 20 Mil piece of the team!
I want Mrs. Met to polish my knob. My sneakers need no shining
Yeah we only have 5 guys in the entire organization we can trade….
Yeah thats CREATIVE thinking at it’s finest!
Bayonne — “The FO should be actively calling teams ….”
How do you know they’re not? Lots of words in your post but really no ideas, just speculations.
You mean like when the mets were buyers this season?
Sandy was calling teams…
but more to find out where should he take Lil Jeffy out to eat when they come to town
Truth is Collns was a guy who they deemed would implemen whatever they said to without question.
Thats what they want a guy who will read the memo on “APPROACH” and “PHILOSOPHY” and make sure it gets implemented without complaining!
He hasn’t even been given the right to hire his own coaches.
All those are being dictated to him.
They are running this like it’s a corporation, CEO and his VPs decide what needs to happen and how it should happen and your job is to do what we say without complaining!
maniac,
Alderson has 1 world championship ring and minaya has 2 ruined franchises on his resume. Harvey? hey you know what they say about a broken clock right?
You go ahead and celebrate the A’s championship if you want, he’s done crap for the Mets. CRAP! Ike Davis is also Minaya’s, so is Niese, so is Dickey, so is Tejada. You’re just a hater, and nothing anyone says will change your mind.
Hi Ray,
M. Donald Grant also has one world series ring to his credit as well…..
Omar Minaya has a better winning percentage as a GM than Sandy Alderson
1997 Oakland Athletics American League 65 97 .401 25.0 4 1,264,218
1996 Oakland Athletics American League 78 84 .481 12.0 3 1,148,380
1995 Oakland Athletics American League 67 77 .465 11.5 4 1,174,310
1994 Oakland Athletics American League 51 63 .447 1.0 2 1,242,692
1993 Oakland Athletics American League 68 94 .420 26.0 7 2,035,025
1992 Oakland Athletics American League 96 66 .593 - 1 2,494,160
1991 Oakland Athletics American League 84 78 .519 11.0 4 2,713,493
1990 Oakland Athletics American League 103 59 .636 - 1 2,900,217
1989 Oakland Athletics American League 99 63 .611 - 1 2,667,225
1988 Oakland Athletics American League 104 58 .642 - 1 2,287,335
1987 Oakland Athletics American League 81 81 .500 4.0 3 1,678,921
1986 Oakland Athletics American League 76 86 .469 16.0 3 1,314,646
1985 Oakland Athletics American League 77 85 .475 14.0 4 1,334,599
1984 Oakland Athletics American League 77 85 .475 7.0 4 1,353,281
1983 Oakland Athletics American League 74 88 .457 25.0 4 1,294,941
1982 Oakland Athletics American League 68 94 .420 25.0 5 1,735,489
1981 Oakland Athletics American League 64 45 .587 - 1,304,052
I don’t think Sandy got to the A’s until 1982.
Eight years to get the team over .500?
And only because the old owners doubled payroll that year and became the second highest spending team in the AL for the next four years?
Wow, he really is a genius.
Don’t worry Mets fans, only six more years and we’ll be over .500 too.
You think he would have learned his lesson…
The years he spent he won the years he cut he lost!
i checked that too…
thats not really true…
87-90 he actually had a payroll from 10-15th in the league…
the RAISES he had to give those successful teams ( canseco, mcguire, ricky, etc ) resulted in a top payroll from 92-94…they then sucked gorilla donkey balls…cut Dave Stewart, Ricky, and had a firesale…
No talent came back for that firesale…
in 1995 the owner died, in 1996 now starts the Bill James era….he does that for 2 years…gets 0 success for it…Billy Beane takes over….hires Depo…THEN u can watch moneyball and pick up the rest of the story…
but Sandy Alderson has NEVER successfully FULLY adopted Moneyball the way BEANE did and fielded a team over .500…
Sandy had no interest in being a GM…he is Selig’s lap top…
Selig sent him to SD…..Sandy prepped the team from 2005-2009…they found a buyer for the team in 2010…Good job Sandy…
Sandy takes a few months off…then gets sent on another mission to fix another team up that has to find some buyers soon…now its the Mets….
Sandy is not a GM any more…I cant even be mad at him….
Hi Just,
And based on those figures, we have to then determine how much or little of an impact Sandy had in assembling the talent each of those seasons.
The 1988-1990 teams?
I would say Sandy and his staff had alot to do with those teams…but that was ALL pre Sabermetrics…
Sandy was general counsel up until 1981-1982…he even said he knew nothing about baseball and just kept his mouth shut as more intelligent baseball people had input…thats how he learned…
very similar to Al Harazin in 1991. The only difference is that the ownership wanted to put fannies in the seat by signing big name players….so the way they did business in 1980-1984 was no longer acceptable. No more kids…No more patience….that blows up in their face, they fire Harazin after a year…the media says…hey what happened to the kids….Enter Generation K…..the wilpons go the complete opposite route….they rush 3 SP at the same time and overwork the crap out of them…that doesnt work, the GM is fired, enter Steve Phillips…
The difference was the ownership between the A’s and Mets…
the A’s were patient…
Some key components of the 1988 team were age 27 or younger..
McGuire – Drafted in the 1st round (10th pick) of the 1984 amateur draft.
Weiss – Drafted in the 1st round (11th pick) of the 1985 amateur draft.
Polonia – amateur free agent in 1984.
Canseco – 15th round of the 1982 amateur draft.
Steibeck – in the 9th round of the 1983 amateur draft.
Cadaret – in the 11th round of the 1983 amateur draft.
Polonia was included in the trade for Rickey Henderson…1989-1990 the same core group wins it all
Sabermetrics did not lead to that title….good old fashioned Omar Minaya Style scouting did..
Along with finding reclamation projects like Bob Welch, Dave Stewart, and Dennis Eckersly…properly raising payroll and absorbing the highest contract in baseball with Ricky Henderson…a person they traded 5 years earlier…because of his contract demands….instead of having egg on their face…they swallowed their pride…didnt care about the backlash and did what was right….
they also were providing great management in Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan…and not firing them when the team doesnt win the world series…
fact is…the wilpons never in a million years could stomach the backlash that comes with losing 5-6 years in a row…w/o drastically changing the way the team does things…
Harazin …canned in less than 1 year
Mcllavaine – canned in 3 years…1997
Phillips….above .500 from 98-01…canned after 1 sub .500 year
Duquette …canned in less than 1 year
Omar..above .500 from 05-08..canned after 2 sub .500 years
interesting article written about the Joe Mac firing in 1997
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1997-07-17/sports/18058063_1_steve-phillips-binghamton-mets-fred-wilpon
One of his former managers once said, “Fred is the quietest meddler you’ll ever see.”
15 years later we are still saying the same thing…
This team will never change direction so long as Fred Wilpon and his impossible to fire COO and VP are ushered out of town.
Hi Just,
If Sandy had a lot to do with developing those great Oakland teams then the point you make might have been his biggest attribute: “just kept his mouth shut as more intelligent baseball people had input…”
With saying “Sabermetrics did not lead to that title….good old fashioned Omar Minaya Style scouting did..” we can go one step further and continue the story of what sabermetrics did lead to.
That’s what so many of us contend occured – more intelligent baseball people had input. There is no other way Oakland could have reached the success it did. It was not somebody coming in cold and in one year began rebuilding the team based on learning the methodology of Bill James – with saber metrics being only a part of James’ vast repetoire and knowledge. When he was hired by the Red Sox in 2002, James had this to say about the use of sabermetrics:
“The Red Sox are not hiring me to be a scout, and I’m not going to try to do that.
“Evaluating players without seeing them play is a lot like being a movie reviewer without actually going to the movies. I suppose you could do it, but I don’t know how you would do it and I don’t know why you would do it.”
Note, those quotes came twenty years after Sandy Alderson suddenly revolunized the game in Oakland.
Joey, this is just what we are talking about below. Why is it that we care about what happened in Oakland decades ago? What does it really matter who was making the decisions and who was in charge of those people? Ultimately the GM is responsible and gets the credit or the blame, just as a manager does. However, each situation is different and a GM treats them as such.
HI TR,
His role in Oakland is vital to the situation at hand because the crux of the argument is who is Sandy Alderson – a baseball architect or a financial one or both? If he was not involved in the player personnel decisions related to scouting, signings, trades, etc at Oakland but rather the business end of it that thus answers the question of what his role is with the Mets.
LOL, OK Joey. Sorry I don’t see it that way.
Hi TR,
That’s the only reason why we bring up something a long, long time ago in a city far, far away.
I think it comes across as just a irrelevant pissing match with neither side having any idea what actually went on. Sorry.
Why? It’s simple because you guys seem to think it’s relevant enough to call Sandy a guy with a track record he really didn’t earn himself!
Some key components of the 1988 team were age 27 or younger..
McGuire – Drafted in the 1st round (10th pick) of the 1984 amateur draft.
Weiss – Drafted in the 1st round (11th pick) of the 1985 amateur draft.
Polonia – amateur free agent in 1984.
Canseco – 15th round of the 1982 amateur draft.
Steibeck – in the 9th round of the 1983 amateur draft.
Cadaret – in the 11th round of the 1983 amateur draft.
Which is why we are questioning just how much of that 1989 WS winner was actually due to Sandy’s Architectural work.
Is it really credible to say a guy who knew nothing at all would be the brains behind draft picks made just 2 or 3 years after he got a title he wasn’t really qualified for?
Sorry but this post makes me laugh.
I just want to know when some Met fans are going to start looking forward instead of complaining about the past.
Yup, that’s kinda where I am going.
The day after the TEAM moves forward instead of backwards!
How many wins did we have when Sandy got here?
How many more have we won from where he started under his leadership?
Yup, that’s kinda where I am going.
Many can imitate few can replicate, lol.
Right over their collective heads.
What went over our Heads SRT?
Pray tell!
Did some improvement in the Win column go over our heads?
Or did the fact we have lost more games since he took over go flying over yours?
Well Metsie, I think if I have to explain it, it would probably just be a waste of time.
I thought my original comment was pretty self explanatory.
You know SRT, some of us would like to now exactly what you mean by going forward? Because whether you admit it or not, a lot of us who were skeptical at first about these 3 clown are absolutely right on what we said about them. Now some of you’s who portrait this man as a genius, as a smart hired etc are coming up with all sorts of excuse as to why he’s failing as his job and even admitting to what we said at first and got murdered for that they were hired to fix the financial mess the mets were in not to put up a good product on the field. after 2 years of pure nothing and him being probably the worst GM in mets history some of you’s have the guts to still look for excuses.. and of course, you’re the queen of the Let’s not blame alderson campaing..
O.K., I’ll take a shot at this.
Sometimes these threads are filled with long, agonizing breakdowns of what SA did in his tenure with the As and Padres – who actually participated in the drafts, who was responsible for what. Same with Omar and his tenure with both the Expos and Mets. Seriously, do you all really care about that stuff?
Some of these post keep lamenting about past moves – over and over and over – such as ‘giving up a chance at post season b/c we traded KRod and Beltran’.
We keep complaining about the non moves at both trade deadlines ad nauseum.
What I’m puzzled about is some that just don’t seem to realize the financial straits the Mets were in when Omar was fired and SA was hired. Ask yourself just why Omar was fired to begin with. Seeing as they were so broke, saving any dime by just keeping Omar and having him slash payroll would seem prudent. But they didn’t. Why do you think that is? I know anyone reading here often enough knows my opinion, I’ve said it often enough.
Getting the team financially solvent for the Wilpons was the #1 goal. Looks like that was accomplished, no matter how it was done. And it was done. Right now, we seem to be stuck with the Wilpons in the near future.
So how about we look to the future on where they go from here? I still say SA will not be the GM in charge when the Mets start climbing back up. He apparently accomplished what he was sent here to do. He’ll probably be turning those reigns over as soon as his contract is up.
HI srt,
“Getting the team financially solvent for the Wilpons was the #1 goal”
That is exactly the point we are making regarding most all the moves made the past two seasons. The moves made were to keep it financially solvent, not competitive for the two could not be done together.
” Looks like that was accomplished, no matter how it was done.”
Don’t know about that. They just got a refinancing on their debts via SNY because the Mets were too much a risk for financial agencies to take.
That is exactly the point we are trying to make.
Fair point, bu if you’re gonna lament some of the posters for being bias against SA and bringing up how poor of a job he did in SD and the late oakland years, then shouldn’t you actually lament as well when people try to praise the guy for winning a championship in Oakland? I mean, i have never seen you criticize or jump the gun on anyone who praises the guy, so try to be less BIAS towards the man yourself before “Lamenting” that we keep attacking him for being a shi*** GM. and quite frankly, he has.
You make some fair points about the guy, but here’s the problem, he knew the mets had no money, we all knew the mets had no money, that is one of the reasons he was brought here, to look for undervalue players who could help the franchise, but, the only way to acquire talent is not only by spending money in FA, and those are your words in a nutshell, however, since the mets have no money and he’s not acquired anyone to make the team better and we’ve regressed in the standings and have watched every team get better than you and others keep using the “we don’t have money” excuse to defend the guy. that’s the problem most of us have, and as i said, there’s THREE GM’S in house and they cannot come up with ways to improve the roster? We’ve regressed in back to back years yet somehow according to some of you we’ve gottten better, the guy has been a total failure at the best thing he does and neither you or anybody else can’t say otherwise, and if you do is because you don’t wanna admit that most of us were right and you simply were wrong…
” Looks like that was accomplished, no matter how it was done.”
Well, by that statement I meant the Wilpons didn’t have to declare bankruptcy, haven’t put the team up for sale and it looks like they’re going to be the owners – in the short term anyway. This time last year they were facing a billion dollar lawsuit that didn’t look good for them. Since that was settled out of court for much less then they were facing – and since we slashed payroll some $50 MIL along with bringing in minority investors – it allowed them to hold on.
I don’t think they’re selling this team anytime soon – but you’re right…we really don’t know what might happen after the 2013 season.
I think as long as old man Fred is alive, the Wilpons remain owners. After that well, it’s anyone’s guess. Not sure Jeff cares as much, but that’s just a hunch on my part.
No Alex, b/c I really don’t care what happened some dozen years ago – whether good or bad. Especially when it had nothing to do with the Mets.
Different situation now, different set of circumstances.
And you never saw me posting either with or against those who were debating what was done in Oakland or San Diego. Not one post…..
So far as regressing in the standings….I’m thinking that was a little hard to avoid having to slash some 50 MIL in payroll, especially given the holes we had going into this season.
It is what it is though. SA hands were somewhat tied b/c of the money problem. Some of his signings/deals did not work out. Some were fine.
As I’ve said before, no one is going to make me believe the Wilpons told him he could spend more money and he just said ‘No thank you’.
Hi srt,
Yup, we agree entirely on the economic front. It appears to me that Fred has more of the passion for the game – even if his going about it was wrong – while Jeff seems to have more passion for the dollar so the younger Wilpon might not have the same sentiment as his father and could sell the team if he sees it would be more profitable for him to do so than to keep it.
“I meant the Wilpons didn’t have to declare bankruptcy…”
Considering how you feel about the Wilpons and wanting them gone why applaud Sandy who is extending the ownership you hate so much?
You seem to be rooting against what you would like to see here.
We’ll start looking forward when the front office STARTS moving forward.
Look at the standings, we’re moving in reverse.
We are currently a STICK stuck in the mud.
Keep laughing TRS/SRT it’s very funny. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
If you call this progress, it may be time to seek out a psychiatrist or an exorcist.
I’m tellin you man I almost have to believe they are Wilpons because they seem to herald saving Wilpon from having to kick in money as progress despite digression of all things baseball!
So far all he has taken a bite out of is how much of Wilpon’s money is needed at the end of the season to cover expenses and he still has yet to get the team to the point that it’s profitable!
55 Million cut, Three All stars gone in the name of Financial flexability and yet here we are in the third offseason still complaining we can’t afford anyone!
And rebuilding? All we have gotten in players on the plus side is Wheeler and they won’t even let him start the season! They bought one brick to rebuild the house with and refuse to set it!
Talking Heads wrote the theme song for this front office…Burning down the house!
In a non-baseball sense you are right. How can one look forward if you are driving in reverse. You could get yourself killed that way.
Well Patrick there are some here who sem to think backwards is forward and sideways is straight ahead!
These are the folks who think a team who has increased nothing but the loss column has improved and getting better.
Good speeches. He speaks so well !
LOL Yes no one can articule nothing better than Sandy!
Hi Srt,
It comes down to how sincere one perceives the front office regarding it’s commitment to winning and that ownership is fiscally able to do so versus it’s commitment to retaining the current ownership under circumstances that would prevent them from fielding a competitive team.
That’s the bottom line of the frustration. One could feel a general manager as having failed and having done a miserable job but not question the integrity of his decision making. Having to even question Sandy’s motivations is a reason in itself as to why so many of us don’t look forward to the next few years. We understand there is more to the situation than just fiscal responsibility when the focus is so much on the owners and their debts than it is the players.
Those complaining about wanting to hear the truth from the FO have unrealistic expectations.
No FO is going to outline their detailed plan to the media or fans. Never happen. They’d put themselves at a real disadvantage.
I still believe the #1 goal in the SA hiring was to save the team for the Wilpons first and foremost. That of course, is not something this organization is going to admit. Anyone paying attention though should realize that. I don’t question his motivations because to me, they were very clear going in.
I also believe SA will not be the GM past the current contract he’s got. I don’t think that was ever the goal. So far, he’s accomplished what seems to have been his #1 goal. He’ll just be passing the reigns on after that. Who becomes the next GM for the Mets is going to be very interesting.
No other GMs don’t go out there and tell their plans….
They don’t lie either they simple don’t say anything at all!
I happen to agree with you Sandy isn’t lying…
He is WAFFLING, Changing his mind depending on which side of the bed he woke up on that day!
Nope – Since all GMs don’t go out and announce their plans – as you’ve acknowledge – then all other 29 GMs who are quoted are saying exactly what then? Giving away franchise plans? Lying to throw all off the scent? How do the rest handle it?
I’ll tell you how…it’s called spin. They’ve all done it, they all still do it, they all will continue to do it.
Just about every fan base to a tee thinks their organization is lying to them, be it injury status/updates, off season plans, player evaluations, etc. etc. I read about it every day.
Apparently it’s no different with Met fans.
I’m not sure what some of you are looking for.
If you agree it’s foolish to give detailed plans to the public and you know they all do the spin line and and I’m sure you’re astute enough to realize team plans are fluid to begin with depending on deals that can or cannot be done etc,….. just what exactly are you expecting? Do you really believe the GM saying ‘no comment’ would fly?
No Srt,
There is a difference between SPIN and CLICHE…
Most GMs don’t spin or outright lie, they merely use Cliche to give a NON answer as opposed to outright lying to the press.
They have the gift of saying NOTHING of worth to tip thier hand or plans.
This guy comes out and says what his plan is and then changes his mind and does something else!
And he doesn’t on issues that would not be giving away company secrets as well.
Wheeler isn’t ready and a week later he is starting…
Is just one example where saying what the plan was wasn’t neccessary OR was any trade secret needed to be kept from the other GMs in the league!
So he lied knowing full well he was coming up or Waffled on what he thought just a week before!
Just as he did with the Buyers/Not Buyers in a week. That one was something he should have just kept his mouth shut on but didn’t.
Maybe if he had he might have found an offer he liked as opposed to teams wanting to rape him for talent because he said he was going for the playoffs.
ANyway you slice it…
He Lied, He Waffled….
Not the sign of a smart business man!
Sorry Metsie….you’re not changing my mind on this and I’m likely not changing yours.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
find it hard to believe you have made your mind up here….
You seem to be at odds with yourself more than me.
You say Sandy is doing a great job saving the franchise for the owners you claim need to go if we are ever going to solve our problems.
Is he working for you or against you?
The book on this regime isn’t written yet, but I have a hard time seeing what exactly has improved. Zack Wheeler was great. Theres nothing else. The team is worse than it was in 2010.
As soon as i read open this article written by joe D and saw that Sandy Alderson picture alongside depo and JP i knew what i was gonna read.. The same ______s in here despite how pathetic we’ve been in the past years under this FO are still somehow defending them.. It’s just amazing. Yet they complain about us because we bash sandy every day, but here they are ready to defend their lord of saber crap to no end, now they even got a new guy in here praising SA because we got wheeler w/o recognizing we lost 3 All stars in the process and pretty much the good players on the roster we got is due to minaya. i mean, it’s getting downright pathetic at this point. One thing i’ll say, can we wait and see what wheeler bring to the table before we praise the kid for being a great acquisition? I mean, wasn’t seattle’s Justin Smoak a steal for cliff lee when traded to texas? You think Texas is missing his 220 BA with nothing else to show for? Many of this top prospects don’t even pan out so let’s just wait and see before we annoint the guy as the next tom seaver jeez…
Yup…Texas traded Smoak for Lee…
then when Lee left…they got 2 picks for him…
http://baseballdo.com/tag/zach-cone/#.UH6a98WHKTI
The Mets could’ve gotten draft picks for wagner…but nope…freddy coupons wanted to save 1 mil in salary…
The Mets could’ve traded Hairston for a couple of prospects…but nope..finishing closer to .500 was more important…
The Mets could’ve traded Byrdak for a couple of prospects…but nope..finishing closer to .500 was more important…
Damaja, they called it “Having People in the seats”.. Downright disgrace what we as real mets fans have been put through,,
And the only thing that made people come to the game was watching RA Dickey go for his 20th win…
NOT watching David Wright go for his 20th HR
You do realize that batters hitting 20 HRs are not uncommon, right?
But 20 game pitchers in this day and age are…..
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Three GM in house, and all three of them combined have given the team and the city nothing to show for in 2 years.. NOTHING.. I mean, aren’t these 3 guys supposed to be very smart at finding undervalue players etc? 2 years and counting and we’re still waiting for some results from this group. Highly doubtfull anybody within their right mind would hire one of these clowns to run their franchise.. If it wasn’t for SA i am 100% they’d be working at ESPN or something, no owner would hire one of these losers again…
But they speak English so well
Is it always about race and double standards with you? Serious question. Can’t it just be about baseball or are you always looking for these “double standards” in all parts of life? Feeling the victim much?
Are you really so naive as to believe that one of the reasons nobody like Omar Minaya was because of speaking> He was the brunt of jokes daily on twitter. “Adam you know you lobby Fred for front office job. Admit you lobby him.” Maybe your naivety made you bring up race, or maybe you just wanted to bring it up yourself. But don’t pretend you didn’t read the remarks everywhere after after Alderson’s first presser that went “finally, someone who can speak English.” I’m as white as snow, but even I’m not that stupid to know that Omar’s speaking was a big problem for many Mets fans. Who knows, it may have been a problem for you too considering how quickly you jumped on this.
But whats the point of constantly bringing it up here years later? Doesn’t matter what those fans believed, the Wilpons didn’t fire him because he couldn’t speak English.
The frequency of what is discussed here might be a problem for you. If it is then simply pass it by. But to use the word race on an innocuous comment that was not that far from the truth is a not the best best way to let this argument fade away. In fact when a few of the other regulars see that, it will most likely lead to another flame war, and you’ll have yourself to blame for it. That’s all I’m saying. If comments like that bother you, why bring more attention to it? Where’s the logic in that?
K Maxx, if you go back through the most recent comment sections you will see an increase of people making ignorant comments like
“Just_Da_Damaja October 17, 2012 at 10:56 am
But they speak English so well”
What point do those comments have other than to bring up the “race and double standard” crap that we had to deal with when Omar was here. I defended Omar’s moves vs those who complained about the signings saying they were race related and now we have to hear it the other way. It wasn’t relevant then and it isn’t now.
I guess racism is in the eye of the beholder….
Speaking isn’t a race thing…
There are people of all races who are no good at speaking!
You guys take confidence from the way Sandy speaks while some didn’t feel all that confident when Omar spoke.
That has nothing to do with race!
And idiot who speaks well will look smarter and give you more confidence than a smart guy who doesn’t!
We have two guys running for president who both speak well and I would say both are dumber than carts!
Yet we will judge them based on how they talk not based on what they do!
Which seems to be what the Sandy supporters are doing!
One of the major benefits many Sandy supporters stated was that he would be more eloquent and better at public speaking than Mr. YaKnowWhatImSayin
Omar spoke clear English with not a hint of a spanish accent…
it is hilarious that you have associated good public speaking skills + race.
K Maxx, to make any answer short, he’s an educated Defensive BAck
Better than being an Foolish Uneducated Childish Kid-Under Pressure
I feel sorry for you… I don’t care how many times you try to tell everyone here how you don’t defend sandy and that you don’t love the guy, the more foolish you look.. as soon as someone says anything derogatory towards the man you come to his defense at no end.. Can you please let other people say what they wanna say and just like K maxx told you move it along? Do you feel the need to post on everyone’s comments to shove your unrealistic and garbage thoughts down their throats? I mean, jeez man, let others from time to time express themselves too, it’s amazing how you having your own blog (deserted by the way) you feel the need to come in here and tell people what to say and how to say it..
So back when I defended Omar vs. the ignorant people that said he had an agenda to sign all Latino’s I shouldn’t have done that either?
Also I am hurt. I thought you would give me credit for my creativity with my response to you calling me a DB.
this is hysterical. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
and here they come.. The desert group STICK together eh??
Come on Alex, just admit you like my reply to you calling me a DA. It was much more creative, just admit it
It’s not about defending omar or sandy.. is the way you do things.. If people wanna go ahead and blame omar for signing latinos go ahead, if people wanna blame sandy for signing whites go ahead too.. Not always you’re gonna be right, if those are their opinions then so be it, but you tend to mesh into every conversation someone has. at some point you read the comment and move on, you always wanna be right and if people don’t agree with your thoughts they’re either wrong, immature, childish, etc, this ain’t your blog where you can tell people what to say and what to agree on, in here people have their own opinion, for someone who bashes me and others for attacking SRT as being the Queen of the sandy fan club you sure don’t care to attack others for attacking sandy…
You left one out conveniently.
If people wanna blame the Wilpons then go ahead…
So let me get this straight, you are saying that I should let others have an opinion and not attack the things they write in a post where you also say you attack SRT for being pro-Sandy and blaming it on the Wilpons.
For someone who preaches double standards, you are kinda missing the definition.
Well, the point start with you, as soon as i call her out for being super pro sandy you come in her defend and you tell me to let her have her opinion etc, yet, as soon as ANYBODY goes on a mini rant about your boy sandy or have any opinion that doesn’t fit your agenda you go and attack them and don’t let them have their opinion.. Not me, SRT is the Queen of sandy’s saber club, i let her know about, but i don’t tell her nor you nor stick to stop commenting or anything like that.. You guys belong in the desert, but don’t come here to this site to tell others what to write or insult what they write if you don’t like it to be done to you and your group don’t do it to others..
Actually Alex, again you haven’t got any credibility in saying anything about SRT because you have been challenged over and over to find one post where she says that Sandy is great, good or above average and you have yet to produce anything.
Her blaming the Wilpons is not showing support for Sandy anymore than your blaming of Sandy is showing support for the Wilpons. Why can’t you separate the two?
again, just because she doesn’t say SA i love you doesn’t mean her actions don’t speak louder!!!!!
This is pretty much a recap of what she has said and you do the math for us since you defend your desert people:
Anybody: Damn, sandy hasn’t help the roster and 2 losing season the team is actually worst
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
Anybody: He was supposed to acquire some undervalue players to help the team, even if it was at a low cost
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
Anybody: 2 straight losing seasons
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
Anybody: the man has been a total failure as a GM so far
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
Anybody: the bullpen we got this past season was just horrendous, he did a terrible job at evaluating those guys.
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
Anybody: i got mugged coming out of the bank
SRT: Blame the Wilpons
See the Trend there!!???
Exaggerations and straw man arguments. That’s all I’m seeing here.
Lordy, you are one stubborn Met fan.
So let me get this straight. You can’t provide one single post where she says that she believes that Sandy is great yet based on her blaming the Wilpons for the Mets failure it implies that she loves Sandy. Got it.
So in reality you are part of the Wilpon Fan Club because obviously your blame of Alderson for everything anytime anyone mentions a Met failure clearly indicates your support for the Wilpons. Of course I couldn’t actually find a post saying that you support and love the Wilpons but why the hell would I need to do that?
From now own I will consider Alex to be a pioneer of the Keep the Wilpons in Town Fan Club!
Besides the point that 90% of this guys comments deal with exactly what I said they did.
No…I just dont like how when Alderson, JP, and Depo come in…all of a sudden…”the adults are in the room”
When Jim Duquette took over for Steve Philips…Mr. I cant keep my hands off the fat interns…no one said jack-sh*t about “adults being in the room”
and as far as playing the victim…for a good 6 years, white met fans complained that the mets were becoming too latin for their taste…even Matt Cerrone got in on the action, in 2007 complaining about the Los Mets uniform
wake me up when latino met fans are calling WFAN to complain about Sandy making the club too white…
Well lets see, the truth again comes out.
I am a white Mets fan and yet I defended Omar but now “white met fans complained that the mets were becoming too latin for their taste…”
Why stereo-type races when it’s irrelevant?
Oh and by the way, you must have missed all the stupid post that are doing exactly what you said isn’t going on. On here and various other places there are people complaining that Sandy is making the team too white and actually has an agenda to get rid of Hispanic players.
Again, all this race and double standard talk is just foolish. No one comes here for that, I would assume. Most of us are intelligent people that look beyond race for motives and moves.
‘On here and various other places there are people complaining that Sandy is making the team too white and actually has an agenda to get rid of Hispanic players. ‘
Holy crap….is this really going on?
I think some Met fans have entirely too much time on their hands.
Anything to invent an agenda where none exists.
Just get me the best players, period. I could care less what race they are.
Exactly. Yeah it is unfortunate that some spend so much time looking for conspiracy theories.
Sorry guys…
But to answer your serious question in the beginning as to why suddenly adults are in the room.
It was because the Mets under the Wilpons with Omar as the GM had became an embarrassment in the media and a laughing stock. The Wilpons had obviously continued meddle and were recklessly spending trying to appease the fan base and refusing to make tough decisions in the process. Thus with the appointment of Alderson I think we all saw it as a guy that wouldn’t cave to the Wilpons and would make the tough decisions we needed in order to move forward.
And away we go. Thanks TRS. Sometimes I hate being right.
Let me know when you are. I haven’t seen it yet and I have read a lot of your post.
“Omar as the GM had became an embarrassment in the media and a laughing stock”
Why? Because of crushing post season loss in 2006, a collapse during the last weeks of 2007 and 2008. That’s why.
The PLAYERS win a couple ballgames in those 3 years than everything is forgiven. That’s how winning works. Of course you would counter with “well if Sandy loss at least he wouldn’t be a laughing stock.” And if that works for you than good for you.
At the end of the day it’s about wins and losses and you guys try to rationalize why in order to put some kind of “proper” face on the current administration.
Get back to me if this administration EVER has the success the previous one did. And the previous administration left these guys a lot to work with. I guess since this present FO was supposed to find undervalued players using sabermetrics/advanced statistical analysis due to the Mets financial constraints…… and that has been a COMPLETE FAILURE suddenly the saber goons and their sympathizers are returning to more traditional methods when it comes to laying blame at someone else’s feet.
and that has been a COMPLETE FAILURE suddenly the saber goons and their sympathizers are returning to more traditional methods when it comes to laying blame at someone else’s feet”
THIS^^^^
And don’t forget since that plan of them finding undervalue players FAILED miserably they’re putting the blame on the team not having money..
Hi Alex,
Yes, there were so many I know of who were applauding the moves Sandy made, citing he was a genuis at finding undervalued players. Then it wasn’t Sandy’s genuis at finding undervalued talent as it was he simply had to fill a roster as cheaply as possible with players who could just either throw or hit a ball. Then Sandy himself admits if one goes after inexpensive players one couldn’t expect more than a fifty percent return in performance.
So Sandy himself dispelled the myth of money ball. In fact, I will never forget this past winter when being interviewed on FOX – Sandy smiled, gave out a chuckle and seemed quite embarrassed when the subject of money ball was raised, as if he was dismissing it as something not to be taken really seriously.
I think some of the posters here complaining about ‘Sandy’s club’, the ‘adult in the room’, the ‘queen of the SA fan club’, etc., etc. are actually confusing some here with posts they’re reading over on Mets blog. They talk enough about that blog over in the sandbox so I can only assume they read it on a daily basis.
I have asked repeatedly for someone to find a post from me praising this FO to high heaven.
Not one has been referenced yet. There’s a reason for that.
I’m getting a little tired of being ‘credited’ for opinions and comments that have no basis in fact.
Bottom line from what I see unless you’ve spent countless hours bad mouthing the current FO, then you must be on the ‘other side’. There is no other opinion either way anyone here could possible have….right? SMH.
I actually like Sandy…he’s refreshingly honest at times..I think he was given a bad assignment by Selig…
He should’ve replaced Jeff Wilpon instead of Omar Minaya
Sandy and Omar would’ve been the best of both worlds…
and for those who think Omar never relied on stats…
” Minaya doesn’t ignore stats: When determining how long a contract to offer, Minaya studied breakdowns compiled by John Ricco that showed drop-offs in performance by age and contract length. One graph related to Bernie Williams, who signed a seven-year contract with the Yankees when he was 30. Williams’s health and stats went significantly south after he turned 34. The Mets drew the line at seven years—a contract that ends when Beltran is 34.”
Beltran’s injury was related to an isolated event ( the bone bruise ) so even then…his health was very solid for most of that contract…
I won’t hide the fact that I have said adult in the room many times. It isn’t a knock against Omar as much as it is the Wilpons. I do not believe the Wilpons respected Omar opinion enough. The Wilpons have been way too reliant on fan pressure and it has handicapped the team.
Actually in reality that’s what Sandy wanted as well. We are confusing terms really. Sandy is more like a CEO and then he hires people that are in charge of the different departments. Basically he did take the power away from Jeffy boy when he came in and then hired two GM’s to oversee various other aspects of the team. Don’t forget he wanted Omar to stay.
TRS – The problem with this statement is that Sandy never replaced Jeff Wilpon or Fred….
one can argue that their influence is lessened…
but when we see Jason Bay trotting out to LF…i cant think that its Sandy or Terry’s call…
unfortunately, Sandy is the latest pinata/punching bag that has to take the abuse for THEIR DECISIONS
Sandy = good soldier for Selig and the league..
‘I think he was given a bad assignment by Selig…’
Crappy to be sure, but one he apparently was suited for quite well. After all, the Wilpons are still the owners.
I have to disagree with your assessment of the Beltran injury though.
The deep bone bruise was a result of the knee problems he had to begin with. No cartilage left in that knee, bone rubbing on bone often results in those type of deep bone bruises.
The surgery he had was to clean up some of the arthritis surrounding that problem in hopes that would lesson the pain and inflammation somewhat. I think it certainly did add a few years to his career and productive ones at that.
Even with balky knees he managed to put up quite the numbers during his tenure here. I’d do that contract with Beltran again in a NY minute. Too damned bad we didn’t win a championship during his time here. He might be on his way to that elusive ring this year.
I can’t say yet Just about the Bay issue. We really have no precedent there and have no idea who is behind it.
However, I will say this, you can’t think that Omar would have been as willing to stand up to the Wilpons and tell them they are running the team into the ground as Sandy would be. Sandy’s like the retired Principal in my line of work who comes back in to right the ship. He had no real reason to come in other than believing he could turn things around and if they don’t let him do what he needs to do he just says the hell with it and returns to retirement. Omar didn’t have that luxury.
SRT I agree with both parts, loved Beltran, no problems with the signing because ultimately we got many years out of him and then a great prospect in return. And yes his continual knee issues caused the bone-bruise.
SRT – not sure exactly what Sandy has done that John Ricco couldnt do for half the price..
as for Beltran, ur right…this was written on May 27 2009….he didnt go on the DL til June 21st 2009
Perhaps that’s one reason why Beltran, after pulling a two-out double past third base in the first inning, was such a dead duck at the plate when Gary Sheffield followed with a single. Austin Kearns’ throw from right field beat Beltran by several strides and while Beltran said afterward “it was a good throw,” he admitted that the pain might have prevented him from scoring. (Still, it didn’t prevent him from singling to drive in a run in the third, walking in the sixth and scoring on Sheffield’s three-run homer and raising his team-best average to .367.)
Beltran – who had arthroscopic surgery on both knees before the 2008 season – first felt that pain during the Mets’ May 18 series opener in Los Angeles. Then, the following day, “I got to the ballpark and had a small bruise,” he said. “I don’t recall hitting myself or doing anything to it. Ray (Ramirez, the head trainer) said that sometimes you hit yourself and just get a bruise, but after that it got worse and worse, to the point where my first game in Boston I just couldn’t put pressure on it.” He said he believes this injury is unrelated to any prior knee problems; what worries him is that it isn’t healing.
“I told (Jerry Manuel), I’m gonna do everything it takes for me to be out there,” Beltran said. “But if it’s something that I can’t tolerate, then I’ve got to pull myself from the lineup, simple as that. I don’t want to try to be a hero and then something worse happens and I end up losing a lot of games. I don’t want that to happen.”
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If it makes u feel better…the Yankees did the SAME thing to their captain…although pushing him in a pennant race and the playoffs is a lil more understandable
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/49013205/ns/sports-player_news/
Bay you actually make some good points. It wasn’t all on Omar that the Mets became a laughing stock. It was mostly IMO the Wilpons and their catering to the fans after 2008 that caused the demise, then things like the Willie firing, the Beltran crap with him not going to a PR event, the Rubin incident, the Tony B incident, there were many things after those collapses that eventually made me decide they needed to move on from Omar as well. That is why I defended him up until late 2010.
You are right that if there had not been injuries things might have been different or if there had not been collapses then things might have been different and that if they won Omar would still be here. I have no problem with that. Ultimately though the Mets team that Sandy took over wasn’t anywhere near the 2006 team that Omar built and tried to guide through the collapses of 2007 and 2008. Unfortunately it was full of overpaid, oft-injured, under-performing players with a team that was also in financial mess without any true means of a quick fix.
I also agree that it’s ultimately about wins and losses and eventually Sandy will be judged by those but we differ when the proper time to judge the results are.
might have been different too if Omar had made some deadline moves to beef up the pitching when the mets had a lead. That absolutely is a GM factor.
That also involves taking on salary….even though the mets were rakin in the dough…in Omar’s 6 years as GM i dont recall him making a deadline trade that involved him taking on any salary of consequence ( maybe castillo’s 500K remaining in 2007 )
I am a middle-aged white guy, but you cannot tell me that race/ethnicity didn’t play a factor in Randolph/Manuel/Minaya criticism. I think they lost their jobs because they didn’t win but the fact remains that Minaya inherited a team that was 71-91 and in two years had the team a hit away from the World Series. The amount of vitriol they received and the questioning of their intelligence by Mets’ fans was at times offensive.
And tell me what the media reaction would be if Minaya repeatedly announced that the payroll would be $110 million and it ended up being $93 million. SA has flat out lied at press conferences and his State of the Team conference on the last day of the season was nothing short of infuriating. The fact that he has gotten a pass by the media on this is frustrating to me. So I can completely get JDD and other’s frustration on this issue.
So let me get this straight…
Omar gets into an argument with Adam Rubin…this prompts the adults in the room comment
vs.
Steve Phillips getting into trouble…not once BUT TWICE for Sexual Harrasment…and nothing of the sort is even said…
yup…no double-standard here…
Good god, lol. Where did I say anything about Steve Phillips in this? Stop generalizing entire groups of people into one box.
What I said was there was a series of PR disasters and the Wilpons continual meddling that placed the Mets in a situation that with combined with the financial issues would take someone that was able to stand up to the Wilpons and make tough decisions instead of caving to fan whims.
The Mets have been a laughing stock when it comes to Public Relations FOR DECADES
its when Sgt Sandy Alderson appears in Queens backed up by the Ivy League of Gentleman come in…replacing Mr. YaKnowWhatImSayin that a journalist came up with the adults in the room comment…that got repeated by everyone from Matt Cerrone to Mike Lupica…
You are still looking for what isn’t there. The reason that most people made the adult in the room comment had more to do with the Wilpons actions than it did Omar. They knew that the Mets needed someone who could stand up to the Wilpons. Handling himself well in-front of the media is just an added bonus for sure.
The Original Quote —> “Look, Sandy Alderson was hired because the Mets needed an adult in the room. They needed someone who made reasonable, big-picture choices rather than continue with the decision-of-the-moment way in which the Mets had operated for so long. … ”
Reasonable big-picture choices like…..
NOT Lucas Duda in RF when he’s the slowest person on the team….
NOT flip-flopping Jenrry Mejia 3 times in 1 season after he had TJ surgery
NOT leaking out stupid stories about Ike Davis going to the movies past his bedtime
NOT leaking out stupid stories of Jordany Valdespin wearing gold chains and shades in the clubhouse
NOT holding onto Scott Hairston so we can appear to be more competitive…
NOT holding onto Tim Byrdack so we can appear to be more competitive…
the list goes on and on….like I said…Sandy is here to clean up their finances…help them sell more tickets….thats it…
I like Sandy…but he is as much of a GM to the Mets as Lucas Duda is a leadoff hitter…
Just like anything in life, what you constantly look for you will constantly find whether it’s actually there or not.
“It was because the Mets under the Wilpons with Omar as the GM had became an embarrassment in the media and a laughing stock”
And two years later the laughingstock continues!
Giant are laughing their way through the playoffs at us making the Pagan trade!
When has it eve been about bseballwhen judging Sandy?
All we ever get as a sign he is doing a good job is something about financials regardless of how much the baseball suffered!
You want to have a purte baseball only conversation involving Sandy lets go we would ALL love to talk about the moves made with nary a mention of madoff, Loans, Wilpon’s Bank Account, and Payroll.
But you guys always throw those subjects into the BASEBALL conversation to get away from the baseball part.
So really this is just pot calling kettle because we have tried to talk pure baseball for two years now and you guys always run away from it to talk about money!
Sorry, but you can’t have a conversation about the moves the FO are/are not making without taking into consideration the financial situation of the Mets.
No one cares about the Wilpon’s bank account.
Met fans only care about the Mets payroll.
You cannot look at the FO in a vacuum, discarding the financial state of the organization.
It is a part of NY Met baseball. Ignoring it doesn’t make the problem go away.
If you don’t think the financial state of the Mets the last few years have no bearing whatsoever on the FO plans, then no wonder you think ‘guys always throw those subjects into the BASEBALL conversation to get away from the baseball part’.
Then tell TRS to stop complaining about no one talking about BASEBALL when it’s you guys who keep refusing to talk BASEBALL and prefer to talk finances instead!
As I asked you before how can you say a guy who is saving the owners you don’t like get a thumbs up for perpetuating what it is you deem is the problem than needs to go?
Who are you rooting for the Mets or the Wilpons here?
I am not a huge SA fan but let’s be fair. Ownership decided to drastically cut payroll (whether because of Madoff or because of attendance is irrelevant for this purpose). That did not give SA a lot to work with. He could not afford to re-sign Beltran so he traded him. But he knew he likely couldn’t re-sign Reyes but would not trade him, which is a mistake. Trading Pagan when your other outfielders were Bay and Duda was a mistake. As that trade was done on the same day Francisco/Rauch deals were announced, you knew Ramirez would be little more than a 7th inning guy at best. The fact he could not pass Parnell out of spring training tells us he was a mistake from the outset. Not re-signing Capuano may have been a money thing, but you could have non-tendered Pelfrey which even before the injury was a likely ultimate outcome. So another mistake.
Spending the #13 pick in the draft on a kid from Wyoming who never played anything other than American Legion ball (reminds me of the Knicks’ Frederic Weis pick) sounds like they wanted somebody they could sign under slot and they did. We will need to wait and see, but the early signs are not exactly encouraging.
Then the bullpen, Carrasco, Bucholz, Herrera, Batista. Ironically, most of the decent work this year came from Minaya picks (Carson, Edgin, Parnell). Rauch wasn’t all bad and neither was Byrdak, but they weren’t all that good either.
I think you give them good grades on getting Wheeler. Chris Young as a decent pickup as was Scott Hairston and Mike Baxter. But that’s pretty much it.
But SA has only had two drafts and in fairness we will need to give him another couple of years. But so far, you cannot argue that this FO has been much of an upgrade.
I actually agree with most of this.
the biggest difference (upgrade?) to me is they now do have (or are about to have) real flexibility, even under the new, lower, payroll “cap”. No one of any $ consequence (or any bad contracts) is signed beyond 2013. So there are a lot of movable parts, to position the team to go in a lot of different directions.
the last few years, when you combine the contract commitments and dropping payroll, there was a lot less that really could be done (trading Reyes is debatable IMO, because I still think his value disappeared when he pulled up lame at the worst possible time).
of course the FO could have gotten luckeir/better on the small moves they did do (who the hell saw Rodney coming this year?), but overall, they still would have had to be smaller, low budget, ST moves.
THat all changes with this off seaosn, with DIckey and Wright being huge decisions that are going to set the direction for the team for years to come.
We shall see, but so far a monkey or even Jeff Wilpon could have done the job the front office has done to date.
My take is that Job 1 was always to stabilize the finances of the team immediatley and ongoing, and that is what Sandy was sent in to do (and IMO the idea that Selig made him part of the deal to get the extended Bridge loan is quite plausible).
Omar was not likely suited to that mission.
I actually think Sandy was never intended to be the GM. His role (“the fixer”) really should have been COO or VP or some such, with someone else in as GM (and that could have been Omar) to handle the player moves.
the problem is, that would have meant replacing Saul or Jeffy. Since that was not happening, they needed to find some role for him, so them made him GM, at the expense of Omar.
not every team works the same, but it does seem that Sandy is involved in things that are not traditionally GM responsibilities.
Does that mean that Depo or Ricardi is really the defacto GM behind the scenes? who knows, but maybe.
just my take on this.
LOL, dang I should have read yours first.
Exactly, Sandy was brought in to replace Jeffy boy but you can’t actually do that in the media so you have him replace Omar and then hire people to do the other jobs. Makes sense.
This.
interesting article written in 2005
http://www.padresnation.com/coaches/sandyalderson/sandyaldersonnamedceo.html
I do know of some people during the Omar years who thought he was purposly leaning toward the hispanic player and I argued with them those feelings were more reflective of their own racial prejudice instead of seeing it was simply obtaining who Omar thought was the best player available at the time. They forget Shawn Green was the solution (?) for the vacant right field spot, Paul LoDuca the catcher to replace Piazza and Billy Wagner the closer in 2006 – three important positions.
Yes, Omar used poor judgement with using the “race” card to entice Carlos Delgado to come to the Mets a year ealier when he was a free agent – and it was reported that Delgado resented it. For that he was wrong yet for all we know he might have used Anna Benson as a way to entice players to sign with the Mets the year before he sent Kris packing to the Orioles.
I agree, saying the Mets were trying to make moves under Omar just based on race is as stupid as saying the Mets are now making moves under Sandy just based on race.
What Delgado resented mainly was THIS
the wilpons and omar were courting Pedro intensely…after they locked him up…they turned their attention to Carlos Beltran…
here they spent almost 18 days in PR…going to Beltran’s house….going ALL-OUT to show that they wanted him…
after signing him, they told Delgado to meet them in a hotel lobby in San Juan…a far cry from the way they went after Beltran…there they met for a few hours…made an offer…in a couple of days Jeff through the press told Delgado that their offer was contingent upon being able to move Cliff Floyd’s salary…..then the Wilpons packed their bags and went to the Winter Caravan in Florida….after Day ONE, they gave Delgado a take-it or leave it offer for 3 years 36 mil…already LESS than what other suitors were offering…Jeff felt that Delgado never wanted to come to NY and was only using them as leverage…
AFTER Delgado’s agent tells Delgado about Jeff’s offer…Delgado tells his agent to tell Jeff to kiss his arse…The agent then tells ESPN that Delgado is signing with Florida…The Wilpons THEN send Omar back to Puerto Rico….by the time Omar’s plane lands in PR, the ink is already on the contract….
Here are some links
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/11260/index4.html
He and Bernazard called Beltran’s agent for 31 straight days. In early January, Minaya, becoming the Kissinger of general managers, flew to Puerto Rico with Fred Wilpon to visit Beltran at home. Minaya doesn’t ignore stats: When determining how long a contract to offer, Minaya studied breakdowns compiled by John Ricco that showed drop-offs in performance by age and contract length. One graph related to Bernie Williams, who signed a seven-year contract with the Yankees when he was 30. Williams’s health and stats went significantly south after he turned 34. The Mets drew the line at seven years—a contract that ends when Beltran is 34.
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http://articles.nydailynews.com/2005-01-14/sports/18292674_1_agent-david-sloane-jeff-wilpon-mets-gm
The Mets say they need to clear salary before bidding aggressively for Delgado. They already have a three-year, $30 million offer on the table. Cliff Floyd appears the logical contract to move, though Mike Cameron and his agents continued to duck the Daily News yesterday and it appears obvious he wouldn’t mind parting.
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And the kicker THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT RACE OR TONY BERNAZARD
The three-hour discussion at the San Juan Ritz-Carlton seemed to go well. But three days later, Delgado and Sloane were still taking their time, mulling offers from the Mets, Marlins, and Orioles. The Mets were about to stage their annual Winter Caravan, a somewhat corny old-school promotional event in which most of the team visits city schools, hospitals, and business offices to kick off the start of season-ticket sales. On a Sunday evening, during another conference call with Delgado’s agent, Wilpon demanded the first-baseman’s answer by the next day so as not to “interfere” with the Winter Caravan, Sloane says.
“I’m not stupid enough to believe they were serious,” Sloane says, still angry. “I knew what they were trying to do, which is why I told Carlos that when you’re confronted by a bully, you hit him in the mouth.” Sloane delivered his punch on ESPN, which suddenly ran a report saying the Mets had withdrawn from the Delgado sweepstakes. At midnight Sunday, a stunned Jeff Wilpon, watching TV at home, called Minaya, who spent Monday re-entering the hunt. To no avail: On Tuesday, Delgado signed with Florida. “I don’t think he ever really wanted to be a Met,” Wilpon says.
Perhaps not, though Sloane claims the Mets were “neck and neck” with the Marlins until the deadline was imposed. After starting the off-season by allowing Minaya free rein in the Leiter decision, Wilpon ended the winter as a large presence during the Delgado negotiations. “I encourage the ownership group to participate,” Minaya says. “If you’re the general manager, I believe you still have to run things by the owner. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.” Wilpon may function as a valuable brake on Minaya’s sometimes impetuous enthusiasm, but the division of labor between the two men is still evolving.
Hi Just,
But I do remember that being one selling point to Delgado – perhaps a minor one that got blown in the press – but one that Delgado didn’t like nevertheless. But I felt the need to bring it up only to show that Omar felt it was a card he could use to perhaps help sign Delgado. That’s why I made the joke about Anna Benson being used in the same way.
Which item do u think is going to sell more papers in NYC?
race…
or jeff wilpon giving an ultimatum..
a GM is going to pull out any card in a FA chase. both being from the same country or speaking the same language is just one of them. Anything to give the player a comfy feeling I guess. I am sure a guy from the South would play the good old boy hunting card if it made sense.
Agreed.
Agree, but 99 times out of 100 it’s about money. You can hunt, fish, flamenco dance, whatever, but the bottom line is a player will go to the place where he is paid more (Cliff Lee being a dramatic exception).
I agree but don’t let it fool you, Lee took the money too.
lee did take the biggest salary. The only difference was in the guarantee (or option, can’t quite remember which now) in the last year. But is annual contract value with the Phils is the highest of all his offers.
assuming he pitches the year after the deal expires he should end up making more than he would have signing elsewhere.
Just nt true that he left all kinds of money on the table to go tot he Phils.
But it was such a pretty story that he shunned the Yanks to take less money to play with the Phillies. Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Agreed…however the reason Delgado didnt sign came down to this
” After starting the off-season by allowing Minaya free rein in the Leiter decision, Wilpon ended the winter as a large presence during the Delgado negotiations. “I encourage the ownership group to participate,” Minaya says. “If you’re the general manager, I believe you still have to run things by the owner. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.” Wilpon may function as a valuable brake on Minaya’s sometimes impetuous enthusiasm, but the division of labor between the two men is still evolving.
The papers reported this in JANUARY of 2005….the story went away quietly…
In March of 2005, In spring training, Al Leiter, ( now sworn enemy of Omar and the Mets,) revealed that he was talking to Delgado’s ( his ex-teammate from Toronto ) about the Wilpons from day one………..now combine that with the way Jeff treated Delgado…and one can very easily see how this played out…
the media latched onto the Tony B thing for YEARS…and completely forgot it was Jeffy that messed it up
There has been so much misconception about Sandy Alderson written up that I wonder how it got started to begin with.
When he first came to New York we heard so much about his ability to obtain under valued talent through money ball by recognizing under appreciated talent via saber metrics. Now he says one cannot expect such a great return on performance with the type of “inexpensive” players he obtained over the past two seasons. We also now know that in the past those championship Oakland teams indeed carried with them very high payrolls. The Oakland teams that were close to the bottom in salaries were also close to the bottom of winning percentages unlike their earlier counterparts.
So that is one historical myth the tremendous exposure in New York City has debunked.
We also heard how he was responsible for those great Oakland draft picks through the use of Bill James methodology when James himself has stated that at this point the jury is out about the use of advanced statistical analysis to judge raw talent – a conclusion he would certainly not come to if it was Sandy who did the vetting during the eighties (remember, I posted that quote in the past). Also attached were essays written by professional scouts and scouting organizations attesting the same thing.
Another historical myth that being in the Big Apple has diffused.
Then there is the notion about him being the “architect” of those great Oakland clubs and even though he came in cold and admitted he had no professional knowledge of the game, it was through the study of Bill James he not only concluded which draft picks to select but also whom to sign, release, trade for and call up from the minors. Yet, I also posted above a quote from Bill James ten years ago which is worth repeating:
“The Red Sox are not hiring me to be a scout, and I’m not going to try to do that.
“Evaluating players without seeing them play is a lot like being a movie reviewer without actually going to the movies. I suppose you could do it, but I don’t know how you would do it and I don’t know why you would do it.”
So there again is Bill James himself raising the need to see players perform in order to evaluate them and by that I think we can all agree he was referring to professionals and not “observers” as Sandy described himself who rely on statistical analysis.
Thus coming under the scrutiny of the microscope that is New York another myth being broken.
So again I ask, what caused these misconceptions to start in the first place. Was it a case not of not enough vetting by the established baseball members of the fourth estate but rather a new age of statistically oriented one putting two and two together and finding a poster boy in Sandy – and with access to the world wide web at their control and so many relying on the internet for background information, those who might be writing something about baseball as they do other articles could easily pick that up and help infuse such misconceptions.
to quote old school mets fan: We shall see, but so far a monkey or even Jeff Wilpon could have done the job the front office has done to date.
THAT IS CERTAIN!
what approach the FO will take going forward,i believe, is sadly more of the same. I would love time to prove me wrong.