20
2012
Sandyball: Can Alderson Adapt To Life Under The New CBA?
An article by 
You’ve heard me refer to Sandy Alderson as a dinosaur before or repeatedly saying that he seems out of his element. His moves thus far, few as they may be, have done nothing to change my perception of him.
When Omar Minaya was fired, it was my hope that he would be replaced with a young and more progressive GM – with my first choice being Rangers GM Jon Daniels. Daniels was interested in the Mets opening and had hoped the team would hold of on making a decision until his team finished the postseason. It never happened and at least for the next four years we’re stuck with Alderson who was the only GM candidate to get a second interview after a one-week search.
You may remember me calling the new collective bargaining agreement a stunning blow for the old way of team building, namely Alderson. The new CBA took Alderson’s legs right out from under him and he was left wobbling. Now it was either sink or swim.
Some of the new changes like removing Type A and B players, abolishing the old compensation rules, not being able to receive comp picks unless a player was on your roster for an entire season, and making your pending free agent player a qualifying offer of at least $12.5 million or risk no compensation, threw Sandy Alderson’s way of doing things into complete and utter chaos. Hoarding draft picks and getting rid of your best players to do it is now a thing of the past. And I say good riddance to it.
That said, even though the new CBA rules were in effect for the 2012 season, Sandy still ran the offseason as if nothing had changed, targeting under-achieving veterans and players coming off injury to fill out his roster. He maintained his same way of doing business almost as if it were an act of defiance.
You’ve all heard of the term Moneyball, but have any of you ever heard of Sandyball? Here’s an excerpt from an article written in 2008, that explains what Sandyball is…
Get extra draft picks: This is done by offering salary arbitration to a free agent who played for your club the previous season. If the player declines and signs with another team, the original club gets one or two high-end picks in the next June amateur draft. Under Alderson, the Padres have obtained 12 extra picks, including seven in 2007 and another three for the upcoming June draft. From 2000-2005, they had two extra picks. “The farm system has improved,” Alderson said. “That’s partly because of more draft picks. But it’s also partly more effective use of draft picks.
Hire veterans on short-term contracts: The club has made a habit of acquiring major leaguers who can be free agents at season’s end, or signing veterans to one-year contracts. More to the point, the Padres fish those waters year-round. Alderson has said such players can be extra motivatated by the prospect of imminent free agency. Further, such a player can strengthen the farm system if his departure nets a draft pick or two.
“People sometimes criticize us for taking on older players who might have an injury history,” Alderson said. “While we do that from time to time, not only do we do it to help us at the major league level, but we hope that in some cases they will, through draft picks, help us for the future.”
Unfortunately for the San Diego Padres, all those extra draft picks did nothing to move the franchise or the farm system forward. The overwhelming majority of them never made it past Double-A. In fact, when the front office shed the team of many top players who were fan favorites (sound familiar?), that well publicized 2007 Draft that netted the Padres seven first round picks, resulted in this:
Nicholas G. Schmidt, LHP
Kellen R. Kulbacki, LF
Andrew L. Cumberland, SS
Mitchell D. Canham, C
Cory R. Luebke, LHP
Daniel A. Payne, CF
Eric S. Sogard, 2B
When Padres owner John Moores signed Alderson to a five-year deal in the Spring of 2005, he said “I think this is our most significant signing in the 11 years I’ve owned the team.”
Alderson inherited a team that was good enough to win two NL West Titles in 2005 and 2006, but after a series of unproductive drafts and the purging of many of the Padres’ top players for draft picks, the team quickly fell on hard times and has never recovered ever since.
Cesar Carrillo and Cesar Ramos were Alderson’s first two picks in 2005. The two first rounders in 2006; Matt Antonelli and Kyler Burke never panned out. I’ve already mentioned the 2007 draft in which Alderson was very complicit, and 2008 saw Allan Dykstra, Jaff Decker and Logan Forsythe get selected in the first round. In 2009 the Padres only had one first rounder and they selected Donavan Tate, and the 2010 Draft saw the Pads draft Karsten Whitson. By my count, the Padres were 0-for16 in first rounders from 2005-2010.
During that same span, the Mets drafted Mike Pelfrey, Ike Davis and Matt Harvey. The Mets were 3-for-7 in first rounders in that same span. That may not sound so good either, but remember these famous words on the subject of drafts:
“The draft has never been anything but a f***ing crapshoot. We take fifty guys and we celebrate if two of them make it. In what other business is two for fifty a success? If you did that in the stock market, you’d go broke.” – Billy Beane
If Beane call’s 2-for-50 a success, what would he say about Minaya’s 3-for-7 in his first rounders? And he did it while earning one division title and four winning seasons in six at the same time.
So we are back to building from within and that’s all fine with me. What worries me is the track record of the one heading the transition team. What worries me is that abortion that took place in the 2012 Draft.
These are the things that concern me – not the rebuilding itself, but those charged with the rebuilding. And so far this is looking much like the same plan that was used and failed before. Don’t take my word for it… Ask any San Diego Padre fan.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Sometimes, it seems like it wouldn’t really matter which one of them it is, at least to the anti-Alderson crowd.
I mean, the crux of this argument is based on draft results, which are admitted to being a crap-shoot IN THE ARTICLE. As well as two years of Alderson being in charge. So take that for what it’s worth.
Note 1: Should be “As well as two years of Alderson being in charge of the Mets.”
Note 2: This was a response to a comment mentioning an error to the article, which has since been removed.
the error has been removed.
As the author, I’ll tell you what the crux is:
1. What happened in San Diego is happening here and that’s not good.
2. The draft history of the ones doing the rebuilding is even worse than the past regime.
3. Alderson’s tactics of hoarding picks has been abolished by the new CBA and he’ll need to adapt quickly.
You started out making an argument about #3, can Alderson adapt to the new CBA since he can’t hoard draft picks. Great question, and absolutely valid. Can he? I dunno.
But you then got into his draft results in his time there and how they were busts while comparing those to the Mets drafting of 3 major-leaguers in the same time span. But you pointed out (accurately) that the draft is a crap-shoot at best.
These are two separate, though related, arguments. I just don’t think that his results (were they HIS results?) are supportive of the initial question the article asks.
“I just don’t think that his results (were they HIS results?) are supportive of the initial question the article asks.”
What do you mean were those his results??? He was in charge if the players panned out he would get credit for him. If youre questioning whether Sandy was responsible for terrible results of the draft,team success while he was with the Padres then one could question the success he had with the A’s.
Were those HIS results with the A’s????
Sandy apologists always come up with some excuse to defend his failures.
My question is….”WHAT THE HELL HAS SANDY DONE TO RECEIVE THIS MUCH LEEWAY?” You’d think he was Tom Seaver the way some mets fans treat him
1 – In 16 years as a GM, post a record above .500 only 4 times
2 – Break the record for most losses by a GM
3 – Have the worst winning percentage of any GM in the history of baseball
4 – Graduate from Harvard
5 – Serve in the military
6 – Read a book by Bill James on how to get the most production for the least cost
7 – See a former employee read the same book but actually reap the benefits
8 – Speak good english
9 – Charitable enough to offer a box of chocolates to Reyes
10 – Be Sandy Alderson
Geez – a 10 count indictment.
I think allowing Reyes to walk without compensation and insulting him out the door is a felony, definitely a felony.
I think trading Pagan for two sub-par players is an A misdemeanor due to foreseeability issues; however, when combined with allowing Reyes to walk, its upgraded to a felony because he allowed two top notch switch-hitting speeders go without adequately replacing their offensive production.
On the other hand, obtaining Zach Wheeler was a nice stroke, signing Jon Niese to a solid contract and his efforts to rebuild the bullpen are appreciated, notwithstanding the uneven results. Overall, the pitching is being shored-up under Alderson’s watch.
Let’s see how he manages during this off-season. I’d like to see one or two RH hitting OF prospects brought in, as well as some shoring-up behind the dish.
The jury is still out.
LMAO! You have made a very compelling argument for me there. I appreciate it, but I would like to actually express my own opinion here.
My question touches on how much blame/credit we should give to a GM with regard to draft results. That does work both ways. There just seems to be two sides to that in either you attribute the draft results to the GM or you attribute them to the people actually drafting the players.
What has Alderson done to deserve leeway? Uh….be on the job for only two seasons? I would argue that two seasons is certainly not enough to judge any GM on. But where is the line drawn? I think that depends on the situation. In this situation, I feel the third year is the judgment year for Alderson. I feel this way because this is the first offseason in which he has had ample time to evaluate what he has in his ML roster, and what he has is not much. And while he also doesn’t have the bad contracts off the payroll just yet, he doesn’t have the Madoff thing as an unknown hanging over the organization.
Some people may argue he shouldn’t be judged until he has more payroll freedom at the end of next year. I disagree, because anybody can throw money at FAs. I feel as though seeing how (successfully) creative he can get this year in filling the holes in the OF and C will really help solidify my opinion on his performance. I am satisfied with the drafting so far, minus the loss of Stank. That one is still odd and I have yet to see a legitimate explanation for why that happened.
2 seasons, but they were the 2 where the team was teetering on the brink of financial ruin (along with the owners), which makes it doubly hard to rate him.
Pray tell what affect do the finances have on who you draft and how many you sign?
If your short on Money you don’t go giving a mediocre BP arm 6 Mil per to be your closer!
And you DO make sure to sign the 20 guys who might replace those types for league minimum!
Hey Now, I grant you permission to express your opinion.
As for the draft…
How on earth do u let Courtney Hawkins go…and pick up a SS who people say has a ceiling of Anderson Hernandez
The draft certainly is a crapshoot…
unless your name is Omar Minaya…then even when you outperform JP / Depo with a Wilpon size draft budget…its not enough for the met fan
Let’s preface this with it’s unbelievably hard to predict how a prospect will turn out. Right?
From what I understand, Courtney Hawkins profiles as a LF and some recent scouting reports say he may end up an average LF. That’s not to say that having an average LF is a bad thing. The Mets sure could use one…..
But Cecchini projects to be an average SS. Average SSs are MUCH more valuable than average LFs and much harder to come by. For a more thorough analysis on this, Toby Hyde does a great job on his blog. Not sure if I am allowed to post links, but you can find the post by just searching for Cecchini.
Average shortstops are not more valuable than average left fielders. Both are worth around 2.0 WAR per season.
Especially when you already have a 21 year old SS who hits in the .300 range taking up that position for another 7-8 years before he even hits his prime!
And certainly not when your best OF options are 24 and 26, and the best hitter of that bunch and one of the youngers are playing out of position!
Scouts are projecting that Hawkins will have trouble hitting at the higher minor league levels.
He is by no means a cant miss prospect.
1. “My question touches on how much blame/credit we should give to a GM with regard to draft results.”
I feel Sandy should accept majority of the blame…Why?
-Due to his philosophy of letting vets walk in order to acquire draft picks in return. If you were a GM you would play to what you believed to be your strengths. Sandy seems to believe acquiring numerous draft picks are his strength and are critical in team-building rather than re-signing your proven players. You can also make the case that he is only as good as the people around him, BUT at the end of the day these are the people he has hired/hand picked so the blame still lies with him.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
2. “What has Alderson done to deserve leeway? Uh….be on the job for only two seasons? I would argue that two seasons is certainly not enough to judge any GM on. But where is the line drawn?”
You might be right, maybe it isnt enough to judge overall. But it is more than enough time to see some improvement/direction both of which we have yet to see. He hasnt accomplished anything yet that he said he set out to accomplish….He said we would remain competitive on the major league level while they built the farm. We’ve been terrible both years in large part due to his inactivity and ability to improve the club. Not to mention its hard to rebuild the farm when you fail to sign half your draft class including your 2nd rd pick whom was asking for slot money I might add(nothing more, nothing less). The kid wanted to go pro so badly he came out publicly and stated he wants to sign for slot but the Mets havent contacted them since the 1st talks. And even more proof he was serious instead of going to Arkansas he went to a Junior College instead in order to be eligible for the draft next year.
Mets fans werent asking for much all we wanted to see was “IMPROVEMENT” thats it. Instead we got an inferior team put on the field, We look almost exactly like the Padres now, underwhelming offense and a hodge podge OF only difference is they have a better bullpen.
To make it worst Sandy is living off of Omars players he hasnt made any significant moves other than the Wheeler deal and he gave up an Allstar OF in Beltran coming off an injury plagued season to do it. A trade which we have yet to see if that pans out.
Examples:
Pirates picked up AJ Burnett,Wandy Rodriguez,Travis Snider,Gaby Sanchez the year before that James McDonald…..and they gave up little to nothing Yankess and Astros are paying part of AJ and Wandys deal…Im not saying these deals made them a playoff contender but it improved there team and didnt cost them much.
Orioles picked up McCloth,Chris Davis,Saunders, Hammel,Quintanilla nothing spectacular at all but the GM went out and got pieces that helped the team without giving up anything substantial from the farm or money.
I wont even bother mentioning moves Billy beane made with the A’s even the Redsox helped themselves by trading away expensive unproductive pieces to clear cap space for the future not to mention acquire numerous prospects in the process.
Sandy has done nothing! Not 1 single trade to improve the big league club. I say trade because this man doesnt care for signing free agents unless they are bench players.
Damn I wrote a lot without noticing o_O at the time
There’s validity to those points, so I won’t argue them. But I would like to add that Sandy was killed here for signing Quintanilla in the first place, but now he’s viewed as a good get for another GM?
You see that a lot from people who hate Sandy (directed at nobody in particular, especially not the poster), complaining about certain acquisitions just becuase he made them, not for any baseball reason. They hate his philosophy so much, they have blinders on to actual baseball. The same people who kill him for looking for injured players, reclaimation projects, old players, bargain basement players, etc. are the same people who wanted to sign Brad Lidge and Pudge Rodriguez before the season, just because Sandy DIDN’T make those moves. It’s hypoctisy at it’s most obvious.
well, they seem to completely misrepresent or misunderstand what his “GM philosophy” is to start with anyway.
Right. They swear Sandy thinks 2+2=5, then kill for him for thinking that.
Oh Please…The ones who seem to think they know what Sandy’s philosophy is does so despite the fact the moves he ha made over the past two years say the opposite!
You don’t trade Beato for Shoppach if your building from within or via the Minors…
You don’t trade a 29 year olf for a 34 and 30 year old who suck and are not worth keeping.
And you don’t let two established players (K-Rod and Reyes) leave for consolation prizes!
The only deal that seems to fit what you think Sandy is doing is Beltran for Wheeler and the truth is rental or not they didn’t get enough back!
Beltran is twice the player Wright is and yet you guys all think Wright is going to bring you a windfall of top prospects….
And to not sign half your draft class totally shows he is not rebuilding a thing! It also proves your assessment of our MiL system does not jive with Sandy’s either!
Convince yourself that Sandy is rebuilding if it makes you feel better but don’t try to convince anyone he is doing something that the majority of the moves he has made says he is not doing!
Just curious what team struck gold with their fitst rounds in the draft from 2008-2004. That is 5 drafts. anybody knows?
Rays (Longoris, Price) and Giants (The Freak, Bumganer, Posey, and Zack Wheeler) are two teams that come to mind.
What Sandy left in his wake at San Diego scares me. Didn’t he also have Depo with him there too? The Padres are still awful.
The Padres farm system is vastly improved now but its pretty much all come after Alderson and Depo left San Diego. It started to turn around with Jed Hoyer, who is now the GM of the Cubs working with Theo Epstein. Baseball Americal ranked San Diego’s farm system in the top 5 in baseball prior to the 2012 season.
They were able to do this through drafting, some really good IFA signings, plus the trades of Adrian Gonzalez to the Red Sox and Mat Latos to the Reds got them some really good young players as well.
San Diego might not be ready to contend in the NL West yet, but they appear to be in a better position to do so than we are. They played pretty well in the second half with some of the young players they brought up and Chase Headley breaking out into a star.
Ironic you just made the point in favor of Alderson. Headley, Gonzalez, and Latos all arrived during the time Alderson was there.
Can Alderson adapt to life under the new CBA?
No.
I agree with Joe D’s premise that Alderson needs to show he can adapt to the rules in the new CBA. The other thing that worries me about him is how averse and downright allergic he seems to react to any new long term deals around baseball. It seems whenever any player gets a big long term contract, he responds with a smirk and a sarcastic comment about it. He’s done this a few times, and even did this when told of Ryan Zimmerman’s new contract extension before the season. Zimmerman is a very good player and just getting into his prime. He’s their David Wright. Why would his new deal produce such a reaction from SA? It makes me think that he will never go the extra mile to sign or trade for a player who may be a difference maker for us unless he can get that player at a bargain price.
I really think it depends on who the owner giving the contract is…
and lets face it…the Ryan Zimmerman deal is looking pretty bad right now
I believe in giving LONG term contract to guys in their 2nd year in the bigs…
the 1st year is to prove u got something worth commiting to.
the 2nd year proves u are not a fluke…
at the end of the 2nd year…club makes a good 6 or 7 year deal…
this buys out your pre-arb year…
this buys out ur 3 arb years
and either 2 or 3 years where u would’ve been a free-agent…
If you broke into the bigs at age 23…that makes u a free-agent at age 30…young enough to command at least another 5 years if u are good enough…
controlling costs doesnt mean being cheap…it means being smart
the rays have mastered this
the mets…not so much
the mets have done it too. Wright and Reyes both had this, and recently Neise got that basic deal.
It’s this record of failure that supports the theory that Alderson was assigned here by Selig not to rebuild but to keep the Wilpons solvent. Why would you hire someone with a worse standing than the person he is replacing unless you were forced to?
Of course…
this is why i never compare Sandy to Omar…
Omar was a great GM in a bad system
Sandy is not trying to go 100% in building for the future nor is he really trying to win for today..
I agree that Sandy’s job 1 was to stabilize the finances of the team (call it saving the wilpons if you want, but it really amounted to making the Mets solvent).
I think however anointing Omar as a “great” GM is going too far.
also, a GM job is more than just signing FAs and making trades. He was also responsible for the organization/player development, so the success or failure of that (And Tony B!) go on the GMs slate too.
If you hire an employee in 2004…and by 2006 that employee has already begun to have more influence over your boss than you do….to the point where it is impossible to fire him.
Do you still get the blame for 2007-2008-2009…or does your boss get the blame for not allowing you to have control over your subordinates?
Omar hired Willie Randolph
Tony wanted Manny Acta
Jeff did not like Willie Randolph. the negotiations in 2006 told the story there
So far we have 2-1 in the I dont like Wille Randolph debate…with 1 person Omar’s boss and the other a subordinate
Even Steve Phillips on Espn said that Tony Bernzard had more influence with the Wilpons than Omar…he knows b/c he did the same thing when Joe Mac was barely in the office…In the mid-90′s Stevie P was the original Tony B…minus the Hulk Hogan impersonations
This has been my perception since the new CBA went into effect.
It is what made me fearful of Sandy’s “plan”.
I can’t say the picks in question in SD were of Sandy’s doing however in his defense…But he WAS in charge there of those that made those picks, and that history leaves alot to be desired. His blind trust in his underlings and their lack of success does not bode well. I do question the Nimmo pick and the Cecch pick. Did he make those picks? No. But those he put in charge did.
I’m no Sandy fan by any means because of his moves and non-moves at the MLB level, the buck stops here kind of mentality, because I see him as mostly an administrator who brings in the people whom actually do the nuts and bolts aspect of the baseball part of the business. I don’t think much of those he brought in to be in charge of procuring that talent MLB or minor league.
I think his ‘old boy’ network hirings were questionable to begin with. From a financial standpoint, up to now, he did what was intended by Selig, and the Wilpon’s which was to keep the Mets under Wilpon control, and put the franchise on firmer financial ground.
From a purely baseball standpoint, his tenure, in my humble opinion, has been lousy, and if Wheeler gets hurt or struggles at the MLB level…Yuck… Only time will tell…
When Padres owner John Moores signed Alderson to a five-year deal in the Spring of 2005, he said “I think this is our most significant signing in the 11 years I’ve owned the team.”
I wonder what John Moores would say about Alderson now?
I thought this was interesting:
When Padres owner John Moores signed Alderson to a five-year deal in the Spring of 2005, he said “I think this is our most significant signing in the 11 years I’ve owned the team.”
I wonder what John Moores would say about Alderson now?
Can Alderson Adapt To Life Under The New CBA?
He’s going to have to, along with the other 29 GMs.
Yes, but the other 29 teams didn’t hoard draft picks as the central part of their rebuilding plan. Nobody did that more than Alderson did. And no team had more comp picks between 2005 and 2010 than the Padres.
New system in place now.
Stubbornly trying to stick with a mindset the system can no longer support would be foolish. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise.
It was the Rays strategy.
So you admitting you want a NYC $50MM payroll team? SMH at this man-love.
What does payroll have to do with a discussion about the practice of hoarding draft picks that is no longer possible due to the CBA?
But to answer your question, if it meant two playoff appearances in three years, I would take a $50M payroll. The name of the game is winning, not spending money. Too bad most Met fans failed to learn that lesson. The Mets had the 3rd highest payroll in baseball since 2006 and have nothing but on playoff appearance to show for it. That is outright pathetic.
Joe – With respect to Padres fans – when the Padres were sold, Alderson was gone. Remember, the owner in SD had an LAD like situation, got divorced and the $ in San Diego disappeared.
Anyway, the day Alderson left – a blog we’ve partnered with for my series previews did a post
It had a poll, and the question was: How did Sandy Alderson perform as CEO of the Padres?
93 readers gave him a grade from B- up to A+
82 readers gave him a grade from C+ down to D-
23 readers gave him a grade of F
Pretty interesting considering the results. But I think what you see with this poll in particular is that most people find that Alderson was in a no win situation. He was brought in basically to be a GM’s boss, but he had his idea of how to run the team but the GM was still in tact. Plus you had the owner start to bleed cash thanks for a divorce and essentially sell the team because of it.
How long ago was this poll? If it was more than two years ago it’s pretty irrelevant now isn’t it? After two near 90 loss seasons I’d like to see what Padres fans think now.
In 2008 nobody wanted Omar’s head including you, remember the post you always link to that you were his supporter?
Two years later we all did. Who’s to say San Diego fans dont feel that way now? The farm Alderson has produced more losses than than when he got there on the heels of two first place finishes and the post season.
Put your agenda to the side for a minute and for once in your life be objective.
And wasn’t that the blog where the guy Jessep interviewed hated Alderson? Or was that another blog? Well, I’ll post this anyway:
“Sandy Alderson was like your cantankerous, egotistical, know it all boss. He was entertaining from a fan perspective because he loved to mix it up with fans and insult them on his weekly radio appearances, but he is probably better suited as a GM than a club President.
In the end, his manifesto of being “patiently aggressive” at the plate never seemed to provide anything but players striking out while trying to draw walks. He also destroyed the relationship between beloved closer Trevor Hoffman and the Padres for years due to his inability to respectfully communicate and his own stubbornness.
In most cases I felt that he was trying to do the right thing by building from within and creating a “pipeline” of young talent, but he left the club in a worse place than when arrived. Much of that can be blamed on owner John Moores divorce, but Alderson needs to take his share of the responsibility.
We really liked Paul DePodesta while he was here, but he was doomed to failure by the way Alderson set up the Padres organizational chart. He reported directly to Alderson rather than to former GM Kevin Towers, which in turn made the Front Office dysfunctional. After Alderson left, DePodesta’s great baseball knowledge was being used to study beer sales. Really.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/05/view-from-my-window-padres-here-for-4.html
Yes Vinny – I wrote that story and did that interview. He would tell you though that he hated Alderson and still does. And if I didn’t want to share that quote – I wouldn’t have published it. But the point is – he’s 1 person.
How many Padres fans do we all know collectively? I’m merely showing you that 198 Padres fans gave their opinion on the day he resigned and 47% of them gave him a pretty good grade. That means the fan base was pretty split, especially when you consider only about 11% would go so far as to say he failed.
If you’d like to ignore that, that is fine – but if you do then lets not have people say I’m the one with an agenda.
Well, you were trying to show that most SD fans liked Alderson based on a poll on that site, and I just wanted to show that an author of that site hated him. I think that was a fair counterpoint.
Also, I don’t feel a poll of 198 people is going to accurately represent an entire fan base.
I think if you want to judge how he did there, look at the Padres recent records – 4th or last place finish 4 of their last 5 years – I think that gives you a better idea on how he did there instead of a small internet fan poll
Vinny B — “I just wanted to show that an author of that site hated him. I think that was a fair counterpoint.
Also, I don’t feel a poll of 198 people is going to accurately represent an entire fan base.”
Vinny, if 198 fans represent too small a sample, what does one author represent?
Des, one guys opinion or a poll of 198 fans doesn’t prove anything. What proves an argument is facts. And when you look at the facts, you’ll see he didn’t do a very good job.
I brought up that guys opinion because Jessep was using that site to show Alderson was well liked in SD, and I countered that with saying a represenitive of that site bashed Alderson in a interview to MMO. So, my point was, I don’t think that site is great proof of him being well liked.
Now when we are looking at the job Alderson did, I don’t care about what one guy thinks or 198 fans think – I’m going to look at the facts, and they show he did not do well there.
“Well, you were trying to show that most SD fans liked Alderson based on a poll on that site”
No if I was trying to show that MOST SD fans liked Alderson – I’d go find a poll where over 50% of the fans liked the job he did.
I was merely pointing out that WE cannot assume SD fans all didn’t like the job he did based on baseball reference and draft picks
Hi Met Maniac – thanks for responding to me!
Actually, in 2010 I was still supporting Omar Minaya http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/05/why-jerry-goes-and-omar-stays.html
In September 2010 I said I thought Minaya was getting a raw deal but it was time to move on and I endorsed Josh Byrnes as the next GM
That poll I quoted was done the day Alderson resigned from the Padres – meaning fans had time to reflect on his entire time spent in San Diego and vote on how they felt about his entire tenure.
I’m honestly not sure why that is not a fair measurement to anybody. To me, a poll taken today 3 years after Alderson left would actually be less valuable because it involves hindsight and an ability to try and change the past. The day he resigned, Padres fans had a chance to say how good or bad of a job they felt he did. That’s more accurate polling data.
http://www.gaslampball.com/2009/3/26/811360/alderson-resigning-today-a
So I’m not sure how or why that shows an agenda? That’s me seeing how Padres fans actually felt after Alderson’s tenure came to an end. Not my fault they voted how they did which was pretty even actually.
That poll I quoted was done the day Alderson resigned from the Padres – meaning fans had time to reflect on his entire time spent in San Diego and vote on how they felt about his entire tenure.
The day he QUIT was enough time to reflect?
I say two years is a more adequate time to reflect. Go ask your friend to do a new poll. Then get back to me. In the meantime lets reflect on Alderson’s first two years here.
BTW it must be cool to have the power to leave a comment in the form of a post whenever you disagree. Isnt it unfair to the writer who wrote the original post including any fanpost me or Metsie write??
I also don’t think a poll of 198 fans represents an entire fanbase. I think that’s a very small “sample size”, don’t you?
That poll was 198 fans? LOL Nice job Vinny, I didn’t even catch that.
No, I’m not saying it does Vinny.
I am saying 198 fans voting is more Padres fans that you or I have probably ever spoken to and is more informative than just saying “Ask any San Diego Padre fan.”
If I wanted to be pro-Alderson in Joe’s post – I wouldn’t have pointed out that the poll was split in terms of people who thought he did a good job versus a bad job.
I’m merely pointing out that there are some Padres fans out there that think Alderson did a better job than we as outsiders think he did simply by looking at standings and draft picks.
If you’d like to ignore what actual Padres fans in a bulk group say, that’s not my problem. I’m merely sharing the information.
And I’m saying insetad of looking at a small internet fan poll, look at his RESULTS. The Padres lost more games in his tenure than than they won. The Padres have finished 4th or last place in 4 of the last 5 years.
That gives you a better pitcure of what he did there, than a small internet poll.
To you it does – somebody who didn’t pay attention to the Padres every day like their fans did.
I will take 198 Padres fans view of Sandy Alderson’s time in San Diego, over yours or mine any day.
I’m not denying its a small sample size, but its more informative than you or I just looking at baseball reference and deciding on what kind of job Alderson did for example: You’re not even considering how he got SD to build facilities in the Dominican Republic. That’s a pretty important piece of information for the future of the Padres – that you won’t find on baseball reference.
Now I’m not saying that made a huge impact in Alderson’s tenure – I’m merely pointing out that a Padres fan is more likely to give a more accurate assessment of his time there than you or I can 3-4 years later.
And when they were asked, the fan base was split even after all those losing years you point to. So you think they didn’t realize their team was bad when they voted?
Okay, you’ll go by a small sample-sized internet poll, and I’ll go by facts and reality.They lost more games in his tenure than than they won. They have finished 4th or last place in 4 of the last 5 years. btw, SD was an 87 win team when he took over.
Again but Vinny – are you trying to suggest when Alderson resigned the people who responded to the poll didn’t realize their team had been losing? I think they have a better idea of what is going on with their team than you do
No, I’m saying a poll of 198 fans doesn’t prove anything. That’s such a small sample that it’s meaningless.
Met Maniac, hey thanks for the response. If you are referencing my post that I’ve been working on all morning – I assure you that you have not read it yet based on the fact it isn’t a pro-Alderson piece… so I’m not really sure how it’s me disagreeing with Joe’s post
By the way the entire post was researched over the past few days and written this morning and I edited it to include the opening paragraph to link to Joe’s post. Thanks for your support though! I hope you read it since it isn’t a reply to this feature by Joe D.
I dont think Sandy has adapted or will adapt. He’s the oldest GM in baseball, 65, and set in his ways. I think they call people ornery at that age.
Ah well another place where the facts mean nothing.
Okay lets deal with what is real.
1. Alderson was CEO of the Padres, not General Manager. The GM during the time you are referring was Kevin Towers. If you are going to attack Alderson for SD picks during that time, then the question you ask is a non-issue. The proper question is to cite the success or failure that the Mets CEO will have, Fred Wilpon. You cannot have it both ways. Either the GM is running the show or the CEO. If Alderson was at fault as CEO in SD then the success/failure with the Mets choices is the same. So which is it, the GM or the CEO?
2. Cherry picking a bunch of first round picks is misleading. To start, using Beane’s quote is a total fabrication of reality. When a team goes 2 for 50, that is in a single draft. Any team that only has 2 successful picks in 50 in the FIRST round would be contracted. Can you imagine getting two first round picks in half a century that are winners? Obviously first round picks have a greater shot at making it to the big leagues and even then it isnt great.
As for “Alderson’s picks” in SD, you fail to mention that LeBland, Headley, and Hundley were all 2nd round picks (not even mentioning a guy named Latos in the 11th rd). If you want to look at his record as GM consider that he was responsible for McGwire, Weiss, Tejada, and Giambi to just name a few. And all these are just names that pop out off the top of my head.
3. As for the draft results of this regime being worse than when Minaya, that is also misleading. While Omars’ record isnt complete, how many NY Mets All Stars did his drafts produce? Answer. ZERO. Now Matt Harvey and some of the others might reach that point. But thus far, he has no all star appearances. At the same time, there were no rookie of the year awards from Omar’s drafts. Again, we can look at Alderson with the A’s when he was GM to see he had both ROY and All Stars.
Also, if you are going to be inane and attribute the Padres results to Alderson, the trade in 2006 which brought Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez over from Texas for prospects turned out pretty well. Name one trade Omar made which serious improved the future prospects of the franchise for a number of years.
Why does Alderson get such a pass? It is simple. Because he walked into a horrific situation which is going to take years to dig out from under. Omar left the organization in shambles. Everyone is well aware of little talent was in the Mets farm system when Alderson arrived. Harvey and Flores are really the only prospects left who are more than the AAAA class. Perhaps there is a surprise in the likes of Duda, Kirk, or Valdy but, absent that, there isnt a lot to salivate over.
Also, the Wilpon’s finances are well chronicled. That is the reality of what Alderson has to deal with. The payroll breakdown is terrible with so much going to a couple of players who, sadly, are not contributing much. There is one true tested way to solve bad contracts: time. The Knicks went through it under Walsh; the Yankees are going to face it over the next few years. Met fans will simply have to wait until the bad paper expires. Alderson also had to deal with some insane options that Omar left him with. Shipping KRod to save $17M this year was a smart move. The same will apply to Santana if he is partly effective and in jeopardy of putting in 215 innings.
The bottom line is that it takes many years to turn a baseball organization around. Unlike the economy which can bounce back in 18-24 months, a poorly run baseball franchise takes a minimum of 5 years. As we can see, the book on Omar isnt even written. Harvey and Edgin just appeared at the Major League level. Both look like winners. Flores will arrive soon. Murphy, Ike, and Tejada are just starting to scratch the surface. Niese took a huge step forward and might move into the upper 20% of pitchers in baseball (if not already there). Alderson has just started the process.
Well said.
You missed a spot on Sandy’s left ass cheek.
Alderson played a huge part in the Padres draft. So much so Towers almost quit twice. Towers was micromanaged. The owner himself said Alderson was charged with rebuilding the minors via the draft, NOT Towers.
Poor Sandy, he’s always walking into a field of land mines. What does the Wilpons have to do with his last two drafts? Zero!
Buy yourself an Alderson jersey and pipe down.
Okay Towers was a puppet and Alderson was calling the shots.
Freese, Latos, Headley, Hundley, and Venable are all Alderson’s choices.
Ike, Gee, Niese, Pelfrey and Parnell are all Omars. In addition to Pelfrey and Parnell as choices that Mets fans want to run out of town, need to add in Thole, Duda, and Murphy. It seems the only ones worth a damn from the Omar regime are Niese, Ike, and perhaps Gee. Other than that, nothing more borderline players.
Also, people fail to remember that Alderson brought in maybe the best 1B in Padre history in Gonzalez along with Young in a deal for three prospects. The only reason the present GM has done anything is he was able to trade AGon for a number of prospects (including Rizzo), move Latos for 4 guys who are on the presently on the Padre roster, and had a bunch of picks that Alderson stockpiled.
So anyone who thinks that MInaya left the organization is good shape is insane. His drafts were pathetic and did not churn out much talent. There also isnt a great deal within the organization to trade since guys like Kirk, Duda, McHugh, etc… have almost no value. I will take my chances with Alderson over Minaya any day.
And remember, Omar is responsible for one of the worst trades in baseball history (think Colon) when he was with the Expos. So not only did he do nothing for one organization’s farm system, he managed to completely destroy another.
I don’t see how the players you listed for the Padres are that much better than the Mets? I mean, one of the players you listed for SD was Nick Hundley, who hit .159 this year – .159! I’d rather have Josh Thole.
You only listed three players that I’d say are good players for them, and that’s Freese, Headly and Latos. Freese by the way, was traded for a 38 year old Jim Edmonds who hit .178 for SD. I see you failed to remember that.
You also forgot to list Matt Harvey for us who, has top of the rotation potential. The Mets have drafted more major leaguers with less picks than SD, so I don’t see how you can laud their drafts, yet bash the Mets.
And you have to remember with Omar that Montreal wasn’t a stable orginazation(obviously). He wasn’t working under normal circumstances at the time the trade was made. Oh, if we are going to go over his history, let’s remember that he had a hand in scouting or signing players like, Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Jose Reyes, and Nelson Cruz, just to name a few.
Finally someone who knows what they’re talking about.
It is nice to see that someone else on this site “gets it” …..Being saddled with bad contracts is part of the game. I would be willing to bet that every team has either players under big contracts that are not producing at all or players long gone that are still on the books!
Signing draft picks? It’s a crap shoot especially when you are dealing with kids that are still growing physically and kids who have excelled but against lousy competition. Do you look to sign the best player available regardless of what your needs are now? You bet but then you end up having 2-4 guys in the upper part of the system while you still have a Jose Reyes on the team. Our GM decided that Ruben Tejada was ready and that the risks with Jose did not merit the further drain on team finances for the near future. Smart move if you ask me!
Let’s face it…for most players, loyalty means squat! David Wright wants to stay in NY but he will not be low balled by Sandy. If David decides to ask for the moon….then Sandy will see what he can get in a trade. Will most of us want to see David leave? No, but if he was traded for the right value and that value performed well….we would move on to fixing the other pieces of the puzzle. The one thing that won’t happen will be losing him and getting nothing in return.
like they did with Jose. The Marlins payed way too much for a guy with his baggage of health problems. I’d bet that they would not make the same offer if they had to do it today. Looks like they are now dumping salary too.
I guess that you too feel that we need to be patient a bit longer! I think we will be pleasantly surprised by the time we start the 2013 season!
Alderson will go down as the worst GM in mets history and he will set this franchise back years. I never thought I’d say this but I miss Minaya.
you ain’t kidding. I wanted him gone like everybody else but seeing what we have now? I’d take Omar back in a nannosecond. What’s the worse he can do? Sign somebody to a big contract if the team had the money? Whoop-de-friggin- do
God i wish Omar was back.
Nimmo, Fulmer… Nothing to brag about but damn, they are looking good to me and any other scout who talks about them.
2012 draft, yes an abortion, but Joe D has once again missed the point. Without the cash to spend, the draft strategy changes to safe and signable picks. That why you get a Cechinni instead of a McCullers.
Joe D:
Please, open your eyes and start putting some blame on the ones funding this whole operation. You always are quick to point out Sandys flaws but never the Wilpons.
Perhaps you’re afraid to get on their bad side. It would stink to stop being invited to all the blog interviews with the Mets FO. It’s just so weird to never hear about the cause of their problems. Which is the inability to raise the payroll back up to where the team could be competitive again. You always go for Sandys jugular. Never a bad word about the Wilpons. Please, tell me why you think the Mets being unable to fund a 130 million team is Sandys fault? Love to hear how to explain that to me!
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/10/the-moneyball-mets-i-dont-think-so.html
As I said in the last line of my piece on the new CBA
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/11/balance-is-the-key-to-the-new-cba.html
“Sorry Sandy, it looks like you’re going to have to go back to the drawing board.”
All I can add is that the reputation Sandy Alderson once had as a baseball genius has been exposed for the myth that it is. But he has been given total control of the club as dictated by the commissioner not because of his baseball prowess but because of the drastic financial debt and re-financing required for the Wilpons to stay as owners.
You used Mike Pelfrey as an example of successful drafting and player development.
Ya…
Well when compared to picks like Schmidt and Luebke.
Hell Pelfrey looks like a downright stroke of genius!