3
2012
Sandy Alderson Should Give Us A Kiss
An article by Tie Dyed
By the time 1975 rolled around Al Pacino was considered box office gold. He’d already been nominated for Oscars for both of ‘The Godfather’ films as well as ‘Serpico,’ With the release of “Dog Day Afternoon,” Pacino was catapulted into the Hollywood elite. The film was a true story about a bank robbery in Brooklyn three years earlier. In the role of Sonny Wortzik, Pacino earned yet another nomination. The movie has gone on to be a classic. At the time, however, there was quite an uproar for the ‘excessive profanity.’ This was 1975 after all and the F-bomb was dropped 53 times in a 130 minute film.
In one scene, Detective Moretti is offering Wortzik a deal if he surrenders. The deal is unacceptable. And in typical Pacino fashion, he declines the offer by saying, “Kiss me.” When the detective asks for clarification, Pacino responds, “When I’m being f’d, I like to get kissed a lot.”
I wonder how many of us Mets fans feel like Al Pacino right about now?
We hope that David Wright and RA Dickey will return but in our hearts we know it’s almost impossible. Alderson will offer Wright substantially less than he can get on the free agent market. We can hope that David finds the goodness in heart to turn down more money and spend his productive years playing for a team that is rebuilding. Or he can make more money AND play for a team that wants to win now.
The Mets are rebuilding…yet again. Personally, I’m not sure from what since our last post-season appearance was 7 years ago.
In 2011, Alderson went through the motions of resigning Jose Reyes. Injury prone Reyes wanted big bucks. And although he’d been a Met for 8 seasons Alderson still wanted him to prove himself. He laid down the gauntlet. He challenged Reyes. And how did Jose respond? He went out and became the first Met player to win a batting title. Alderson’s answer? For all intents and purposes, he said, “Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.”
Talking about the departure of his friend and teammate of 11 years, David Wright said, “Of course it opens your eyes. It makes you realize there is an ugly business side.”
Now again the great and powerful Alderson has a Reyes problem–times two. This season David Wright solidified his place as the best hitter in team history. Not to take anything away from Piazza or Darryl or Cleon, but Wright now stands as team leader in hits, RBI’s, runs and doubles. It can be argued Wright means to hitting what Seaver meant to pitching. He’s also been the face of—no pun intended—‘the franchise’—for the last decade.
Part B of ‘The Reyes Problem’ is named RA Dickey. The legitimate Cy Young candidate gave the Mets some attention in the national spotlight with his career blossoming at 37 due primarily to a long forgotten pitch. And what did RA go out and do? He became the first 20 game winner we’ve had in nearly a quarter of a century. In Mets folklore, Dickey will now forever be linked with Seaver, Koosman, Gooden, Cone and Viola.
Poor Sandy Alderson. What’s he going to do…
He recently stated that he will not increase payroll for 2013, leaving it at the current $93/$95 million. It seems unlikely, virtually impossible, to sign Wright and/or Dickey and still keep the payroll to his own self-imposed ceiling.
Dickey has made it well known he wants to see what the Mets do about Wright before he commits to anything. Wright recently stated, “I’ve never thought about putting on a different uniform. But you never know what the future holds.”
If only our GM would commit to winning the same way he commits to keeping payroll low.
Like a presidential candidate, he spins his talking points, plays to the media in short little sound bites and then goes off and does his own thing. Does Mitt Romney really care about working class people? Does Barack Obama really care about those unemployed? Does Sandy Alderson really care about winning?
Alderson talks about rebuilding. But it’s all just idle banter.
History shows that if you want to build a winner, you need to do it around a centerpiece. In 1969, the Mets were built around 2 young pitchers and a manager who knew how to win. The foundation for the 86 team was laid 3 seasons earlier when Frank Cashen acquired proven winner Keith Hernandez. In the late 90’s we built a winner around the bat of Mike Piazza, arguably the best hitting catcher in baseball history.
If Alderson is serious about rebuilding, then why get rid of David Wright? He is well-loved, a bona fide superstar and the only current Met with any post-season experience. If you want to build a winner, you do it AROUND a player like that, not by discarding him.
Sandy Alderson has completed his second season as GM. For both of his seasons our win total has decreased. For both of his seasons attendance has dropped.
We’re now hearing the same lies we were told previously. Every attempt would be made to keep Jose Reyes…until, of course, it got time to make a legitimate offer. Do we really think this winter will be different? I’d respect Alderson more if he’d be honest and not spout political talking points like a presidential candidate. Or like Detective Moretti from Dog Day Afternoon.
Eight years after Dog Day Afternoon, Pacino starred in perhaps his most famous role, Tony Montana. In Brian DePalma’s Scarface he uttered what is the 66th best movie line according to AFI. To adapt the line to Sandy Alderson, “Say Hello to my little payroll.”
About the Author: Rob Silverman
It was 1973 when my dad introduced this 7 year old kid to Baseball and the Mets. It's been a love and passion that has lasted for 40 years, much longer than my first marriage. Since I was little, there've been 2 things I've always dreamed of: 1) Being a successful author and 2) playing right field for the Mets after Rusty Staub retired. Although 4 decades have passed and based on the current condition of the Mets, I have not given up on either dream
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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This is a tad on the harsh side. After all, look at the gleaming example of a franchise the Marlins became when they signed Reyes. Maybe the front office decided who would they rather keep long term if they had to choose only one? Wright or Reyes? And while we miss Reyes, I think we know the answer to that question. FWIW, I think Wright will be retained, especially when you consider that $40M in two players comes off the books in 2014, that ain’t chump change.
I also like that Alderson is vague or looks somewhat condescending and pompous when is asked about what the team will do. He, and the crew he’s assembled, have a track record, and if I’m an owner (who’s restricting funding), then I give him more time to complete the vision. If we’re in the same funk in two years time, okay, I concede the point. But he has earned the right to try and turn it around as he sees fit.
I like your point about Cashen getting Mex in 1983 that turned the Mets around, I also note you didn’t say anything about Cashen’s previous three years in the job when the Mets sucked wind, would we have given him as much time today? Would we have been clamoring for the extension of Steve Henderson to a multi-year deal? Just saying…
Believe me, Peter–I hope I’m wrong. I’d love to see us sign both Dickey and Wright.
But let’s say, for argument’s sake, he does. The Wilpon’s splurge and fork over the big bucks.
What would follow is the following question: Well, if you spent the money for Wright and Dickey, why didnt you spend it on Reyes?
Believe me, Cashen made his share of mistakes. But when he came in, he said it will take 5 years to turn this organization around. We all complained…but sure enough, in 5 years, we were in a pennant race. Plus, even from the start of the Cashen era, attendance increased annually as did the wins total–albeit not a lot. But they didnt go down.
I just havent seen any forward thinking on Alderson’s part. He seems more concerned about cutting payroll then to even give us a decent product and a competitive team.
I think the decision was a simple; “I have $120M that I can give to ONE of either Reyes or Wright, who do I give it to? A dynamic SS who may be broken down at the end of the deal, or the guy we see as the face of the franschise?” It’s a judgement call to be sure, but I do not recall Alderson committing to retaining Reyes, which is the opposite of what the team has been saying about Wright. This leads me to believe that they are of the opinion that they can build the franchise around him.
Dickey is a separate case, I would be in favor of extending his current deal two more years (when he will be 40) at a modest ($20M?) rate. If he asks for something like an Ollie Perez deal, is that good business? Not if I’m the GM.
The fact is also that the team lost $70M last year, and around $20M this year, of course product you put on the field has a lot to do with that, but can the Wilpons (who tell Sandy what he can and cannot spend) really afford to splash more cash? Would I want to see the Wilpons taking the Mets down the bankruptcy route?
Also, I don’t recall Alderson promising playoff caliber team within a year..
The fact is also that the team lost $70M last year, and around $20M this year, of course product you put on the field has a lot to do with that, but can the Wilpons (who tell Sandy what he can and cannot spend) really afford to splash more cash?”
well, if you include the fact that the payroll last year was $140M and we lost $70M is the same exact number this year because we lost $20 million yet our payroll was only $90. so the $50 saved on payroll was what we didn’t lose.
Attendance went downin 83 by a couple hundred thousand from 82. They finished last in the NL in attendance in 83. Then it shot up by nearly a half a million in 84. It took Cashen 4 years to put a winning season together and he had no bad contracts to worry about getting off the books.
He also had 5 Top 10 Daft picks to get it done….
And why did attendance shoot up in 84?
Answer Keith Hernandez!
Get a star and you get a crowd!
1984?
Ummm…there were 2 young kids everyone was excited about named Doc and Straw…maybe you have heard of them…
Straw was supposed to be the next Ted Williams
Doc was Sandy Koufax
They got Hernandez in 83. Winning 92 games and a young fireballer named Gooden to go along with a young slugger named Straw is what brought up attendance in 84.
Oakland traded their best players, won 94 games this year with no stars and attendance went up over 200K. WINS = Higher attendance. Losses = Lower attendance. The Mets have proved that. 5 Allstars, losing records, declining attendance = BIG MESS last few years.
Get wins you get a crowd! Keep winning, the crowd keeps coming. Start losing, bye bye crowds, allstars or not.
This is just another irrational viewpoint by the author that is borne out of years of frustration watching totally inept owners who border on bafoon status. These frustrations have led passionate fans to distorted thinking devoid of common sense. I feel all your pain, but I am in total agreement with Peter on this one. First of all to say that Alderson is not commited to winning and/or doesn’t even care about winning, is just plain silly. The man will be judged and his success measured (as with all GM’s) on his ability to assemble a winning team. The notion that his sole purpose is to just cut payroll is rediculous. The FO does have a vision. Some may not agree with their vision but it does exist. Do the naysayers of this regime realize just how bad the state of this organization was when they took over two years ago? When you consider the amount of salary that was, and is still commited to useless, unproductive players, does it really make sense to go out and spend more money at this juncture, on players that will only be a band-aid on a lethal wound. This FO will spend again when the time is right, not as a reaction to the screaming of frustrated fans to “do something”. The state of this team was so bad that it needed to hit rock bottom first. Those who expected Alderson and Co. to turn this franchise around in a year or two, didn’t really have a clue how bad the state of the organization was. I’m glad the author noted that the winning Mets teams of ’69, ’86 and the late 90′s were built around a centerpiece. Well actually not. The “centerpieces” (Clendenon, Hernandez, Piazza) were brought in later around a solid homegrown nucleus. And that’s precisely what this FO is shooting for here. Unfortunately it will take some time, but hopefully things will start to fall into place by 2014.
This! To MetsWatchman!
Uh yeah I forgot the Wilpon’s financial problems don’t factor into Aldersons’s inability to spend freely – wake me when you become rational
LOL…
That and I have no idea how anyone can call the current plan a failure or success after just 2 years in.
Rebuild a contending team while slashing 50 MIL from the payroll overnight?
Thank you Fred and Jeff.
Thing thing is I think some get too caught up in the payroll and the slashing. Really much of the slashing has been of dead weight in Castillo and Perez then eventually Bay and Johan.
What is the effective payroll? The problem with the payroll of course is that it was cut to where you could not off-set the lack of production from those being overpaid. Honestly if they were able to magically shed Johan, Bay and FF’s salary next year with nothing lost, would that slash in payroll actually hurt or help the team?
Lmao, GREAT ARTICLE. you will find your retractors here and then, but you’re spot on in everything you said. It’s a shame we’ve been put through this, the reality of it is, this man was brought here to slash payroll and get the financial flexibity that the wilpons needed to keep the team, but, since he was the godfather of moneyball, all the saberheads and gooners somehow thought this man was some sort of genius at finding undervalue players, after 2 years of not finding anyone nor doing anything for the team the same people who pegged him to be a savior etc are now flipping the switch and blaming the wilpons because they’re not giving SA any money to spend, which prompt most of us to ask “wasn’t he some sort of genius at finding undervalue players?” eventually he isn’t nor he’s a genius, he’s just an arrogant old man who thinks he’s above everyone and is smarter than every body, thruth is, he realizes this ain’t SD and now that the pressure is on, he’s blaming his ineptitude in poor statements of PPA publicly while addressing the team. 3rd year in, no plan, nothing to excite the team, just a bunch of numbers thrown our way to keep us busy trying to find out what those are while he sneaks out the back door. Worst GM in Mets baseball history
Question: What blame or responsibility do you place on the owners of this team ??? Do you really believe they (specifically Jeff W) are not behind all the changes in direction and confusing long term plan ? Alderson does have some blame for the roster, but his hands are tied to a budget the Wilpons put in place. He and his staff have done what they could to clear dead weight. With $50 million tied up in two players kills any chance of the team being much better next year. I would hate to see DWright and RA go but with zero cash to spend these types of hard decisions need to be made to bring back some young players and continue to build for 2014 and beyond.
Exactly.
The same point I’ve been making for a very long time. One that isn’t too popular here. Some Met fans seem to want to ignore the elephant in the room that is the Wilpons and the Mets finances.
agreed. this site is awesome but i disagree with the self-titled ‘core’ commenting group opinion just about all of the time.
Their finances are just the start of the problem…
the fact that they impose their style of management is really the issue…
Andres Torres + Jason Bay should’ve never taken away playing time from Lucas Duda, Kirk, and Valdespin….
Bay never should’ve been in LF this year….why? b/c thats where Lucas Duda should’ve been playing all along…
but Bay makes 16 mil….
and the wilpons would’ve been embarrassed if he was on the bench…
So Sandy/Terry have their hands tied ….
and noone notices the elephant in the room
You focus on 2013 payroll when it doesn’t matter. these are extensions we’re talking about. Dickey is making about $5 million for 2013. And extension wouldn’t kick in until 2014.
Odds are, they’ve already figured Wright $16 million in 2013′s budget, so again, the extension isn’t an issue for 2013.
that is, if we ignore the financial mess the Mets have been for about 4 years now.
What the hell are you talking about????? Dickey is basically a met free agent. met have the $5 million option and a 300K buyout.. not sure what you mean by the extension not being an issue. why on earrth would we extend a guy who’ll be 39 in 2014? and don’t give me the knucklerballer year’s crap, Moyer was 50 and he was pitching. in baseball you pitch as long as you want for as long as you allowed by teams. again, will you commit to pay this guy more than $15 million in 2014? ask yourself that question and respond if you like
“why on earrth would we extend a guy who’ll be 39 in 2014?”
Because you think he’ll be good for a few more years.
“and don’t give me the knucklerballer year’s crap, Moyer was 50 and he was pitching.”
1) This answers your other question
2) Moyer is an anomaly
3) Moyer isn’t very good
” again, will you commit to pay this guy more than $15 million in 2014? ask yourself that question and respond if you like”
Glad to see you’re now just joining a conversation some of us have been having for at least 6 months.
???? donal, seriously, it’s my fault.. I didn’t realize how much of an idiot you are… I have no idea what you usually are talking about…
” I have no idea what you usually are talking about…”
Yes, you work very hard to prove that point.
Why don’t you keep quiet for a little while and learn? If you weren’t in such a hurry to drop in your 2 cents, maybe you would actually be able to contribute to the conversations.
Why would the Mets trade David. They are already on the hook for 16MM a year for him next year. Why not keep him at that rate and offer him a 8 year 128MM offer. If he is serious about being a met the rest of his career, that should do the trick. They are already paing him that number anyways next year, why not extend him 8 years. Perhaps they could backload the deal so he takes less for a few years and more later as the Wilpons work through the Madoff mess / get forced to sell eventually. That would give the Mets flexibility.
As for RA Dickey, we all love RA. It would be terrible to see him win a Cy Young and get traded. However, what is right for RA and what is right for the Mets? Be honest here, emotion aside. A 38 year old Cy Young winner with a 2013 5MM salary. He could bring in a haul of players, something the Mets badly need. As much as I love RA, as soon as you remove emotion and look at business, you see what the Mets have to do.
Same with Ike Davis. As much as I would love to build around him, Duda has been more productive when he plays 1B. If Davis could be the centerpiece of a deal for Ellsbury (who is taylor made for Citifield) or a haul of young players, you have to do it openly because you have Duda who has upside to Ike’s potential.
Last one, Daniel Murphy is cheap and is an American league player. I think he gets moved in the offseason with Jordany holding down 2B next year until Wilmer Flores is ready to take over 2B.
Put emotion aside and look at logic. All of the above makes too much sense from a business perspective.
8 more years of a what seem to be a decline 3rd baseman at $16 million per???? Are you serious??????????
Sorry Derek but,
I do not see how Duda has been more productive playing 1st base than the outfield. He has only played there a few games and not hit. Davis has hit at least 19 HR since All-Star game. I like Ellsbury but I do NOT trade Ike Davis for him. Ellsbury is hurt every other year, makes more money than Davis which means we will not trade for him. We will trade for lower payroll guys than Ellsbury. Someone like Bourjos of Angels or Ben Revere type players. Maybe Emilio Bonafacio of Marlins at 2.2 million would be a stretch to get as Marlins have a younger player for CF.
If Sandy traded Ike Davis for one year of Jacoby Ellsbury then Alex would get his wish and Sandy would be ran out of town quicker than a mutant child of Ollie, Castillo and Heilman.
We can actually go and get ellsbury, lester and pedroia from boston for wright, mejia, familia, jason bay and dickey… DONE….
LOL, nice fantasy.
Lol, what??? wouldn’t that be intriguing to the red sox???
Pedroia makes $10 mil in 2013 and 2014
Ellsbury is 2nd year Arb eligible and won’t make those $8 million
Lester will make $11 mil in 2013 and option for 2014.
Couldn’t that be done???? we’re giving them Wright who can revive his career there, bay the same thing and dickey, plus 2 minor leaguers who can help them down the road.. we gt rid of dead weight, add good players and solve a few problem… murphy can move to 3rd while we have pedroia at 2B, ellsbury in CF while duda can be in left and maybe even go after Upton to field RF.. I know is a fantasy, but it can be done
Sorry Alex but it’s just a fantasy type trade.
One if the Mets trade Dickey and Wright I would want a butt load of young controllable players in return. That deal wouldn’t even begin to make the Mets any better.
Two for the Redsox side why would they want to players whose contracts are getting ready to expire in return?
Well, lester will be 29 and ellsbury and pedroia are 28-29 respectively, it’s not like we’ll be getting old. i agree is fantasy, but don’t tell me it can’t be done.. the sox are cleaning house, and we have not won anything with wright nor will we. might as well clean total house and get players who are proven winners instead of keep going into future seasons with a known around the league choke artist as the face of the franchise.. Wouldn’t you agree?
I am not having the choke debate, it’s too subjective and leads no where. However, again replacing Wright and Dickey with Lester and Pedroia is about as pointless as possible and basically just shows a bias towards the two players you are trading.
What?? Bias?? We’re trading wright and dickey and a useless bay for ellsbury an OF we deserately need, a good 2B (former MVP) and a SP (stud, and when on, one of the best in the game), how am i being bias??
It’s just a pointless trade. Sorry buddy. If I am forced to trade Wright and Dickey it’s going to be for more than something that would basically leave us the same as before.
From what I have seen of Familia, I keep him. Mejia on the other hand I would include in a trade for an Outfielder.
8 years on top of the option year. wow, that would be horrible.
I’m telling you all…it’s not the Wilpons who are running the Mets…it’s all being done through by Alderson by direction of MLB and uncle Bud.
As bad as Fred has been in owning the Mets…he has always been willing to spend money and he was always involved in the daily operations. Does nobody else think it’s strange that an suit was brought in the office of MLB (one who’s admitted he is only going to be here a couple of years) during the time the Met’s were unable to pay back loans from MLB along with all their other financial problems? Anyone else find it strange the Fred, who has always been a hands on meddlesome owner, all of the sudden has been completely hands off?
Anyone find it strange the Alderson admitted when he was brought in that he really didn’t know anything about the Mets players? Umm, if was interviewing for a job that pays me millions of dollars, wouldn’t a smart move be to research the hell out of the team so you know what you’re talking about during the interview? unless of course you really didn’t interview for the job and you got forced..errr…placed there.
Nobody notice that there wasn’t really an interview process? No other candidates?
You want to judge Sandy by the job he’s done…he’s on the verge of becoming the GM with the worst record of losing seasons in MLB history!
Does that matter? No because Sandy ins’t here to build a winner…he’s here to cut spending and get the Mets back into the black and the way you do that is to cut spending, sell off what you can and to get all outstanding debts paid off. So in reality, Sandy is successful because he is cutting spending and letting the team payback its loans. The unfortunate part about baseball is that it is easier to make a profit if you don’t spend, hope for success but get larger cuts of the revenue sharing because of your low payroll.
The only way we’ll know that the Mets are finally able to go back into active trying to be a winning team is the day the Sandy announces his retirement and goes back to him office in MLB. That’s when we’ll know that MLB has been satisfied with the financial state of the Mets
‘Does nobody else think it’s strange that an suit was brought in the office of MLB (one who’s admitted he is only going to be here a couple of years) during the time the Met’s were unable to pay back loans from MLB along with all their other financial problems? ‘
Nope. My opinion all along has been SA was part of the deal the Wilpons cut with Selig to save the team. I highly doubt SA will be here long enough to see a championship team. He’ll be passing the torch.
Only point I think you’re wrong on was there was an interview process and there were 2 other candidates. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t all just for appearances but it did go down that way.
You have any evidence or proof of this or is this just your personal unsubstantiated allegation? You are saying there is a secret, covert and illegal collusion between MLB’s governing body and one of the owners? You are saying the office of the commissioner was abused to aid a friend and that the GM’s hiring was an under the table deal that would be grounds for impeachment? And that they pretended and staged it to seem like there was a hiring process with seven interviews to make it look legitimate? How long have you had these delusions? Do you always fabricate stories to feed your fantasies?
Sigh……see below.
I’m looking at what I see and I’m making speculative observations. I also see how Bud handled the Dodgers who were in the same position financially and how that was handled and MLB took control away from the Dodger ownership and even blocked a TV deal that could have saved McCourt stake in the team.
So if MLb can do that to one team publicly, why could they not do it to another team in privet? We all know that Bud and Fred are good friends and Fred backs everything Bud wants to do.
Why do you assume that any of this would be shady? MLB is a organization and can handle it’s franchises anyway it want’s to. All the other owners know how important it is to have baseball in NY and wants the team back to making money. It’s a business and it’s all about making money.
Why is my theory so far fetched? Even at the time of the hire, it was know that Sandy was the Commissioners preferred choice. It’s not unprecedented that MLB takes control of a franchise…and it’s know that Fred and Bud are good buddies…and there’s really nothing illegal about it.
What you say is true. But the Dodgers owner was embezzling money, transferring funds into his personal accounts and claiming them as team losses, and couldnt make players payroll. When did the Wilpons do any of that?
As far as we know, they didn’t do any of that…but they were being sued because of suspicion that they profited and had inside knowledge of the largest Ponzi schemes in history.
It’s not like that’s any better…
Plus, if Picard got his why…the Wilpons would be completely broke and would be forced to liquidate all their assets starting with SNY, CityField and the Mets.
MLN needed a plan in place in case that happened and needed the best return on the sale of the team and cutting spending and assets is the best way to do that.
BX Mets, that started since she ran out of excuses for sandy alderson, which we’ve all seen is like her idol somehow. so instead of blaming him for his ineptitude she blames the wilpons and go to extreem lenghts of BS to cover up for him.. You’ll see all most of her comments pertaining to the wilpons and how is their fault.. She’s sandy’s biggest supported in this site.. Pay no mind
LOL…..you’re nothing if not entertaining, Alex.
Lol, Thanks…
You complain about us constantly complaining about SA, yet you do the same about the wilpons to cover up for sandy’s ineptitude.. it’s getting a bit tiresome as well.. As soon as someone makes a comment about the wilpons you hit them up with a THIS cuz like when someone bashes the owners instead of your idol.. that is why when KB made that comment about the FO you when ballistic on him and blasted him for not being a true reporter…
Trust me, Alex….my ‘idol’ is not the GM of a baseball team.
srt, can you tell us who your idol is? Inquiring minds want to know.
Actually two….going with my parents on this, who thankfully are both still alive and kicking as they head towards their 80s.
Two hard working, middle class America folks who raised a family the old fashioned way, with jobs and not handouts. Sometimes 3 or 4 jobs to keep it all going. 1950s values instilled in us with no tolerance for excuses or the ‘woe’ is me rhetoric so prevalent today among some. Always there for us when we needed the pick me up.
Also have to thank my Dad for my life long Mets fandom…..or maybe not.
Wow, sounds like mine. Mill and factory workers. Mom worked in a mill until her arms basically fell off and developed carpel-tunnel and dad worked in a furniture factory from the time of 16 years old to 68 years old. My parents told me a story about when I was born and mom was out of work they took food stamps once and felt so guilty they actually threw them away.
Does sound similar.
My Dad keeps saying: ‘they don’t make ‘em like they used to’.
and last but not least, Sandy Alderson.. His vision of this team has help me get trough the tough times of being a met fan.. I love his arrogance and his moneyball mentality. i am really glad he’s leading the FO on this mets. noone like him!
At some point don’t you think you cross the line with SRT in being blatantly disrespectful?
At times I deserve it because I dish it out to, but I venture it would be impossible for you to find a post where she actually is disrespectful towards you or another fan.
I know you don’t understand why I defend her but to me it’s like you take needless cheap shots towards what I believe is the most consistent and fair poster on any Mets blog.
You should write fictional books, Alex. You’re good at making up stories.
You sure act differently when it comes to sandy.. when someone make a comment about him in a good way, you go on and on about how he’s 100% right, and THIS replies, and the wilpons’s suck, is their fault, yet as soon as someone makes a comment about him in a negative way or that you find inapropiate, you blast them and even go out of your way to discredit the person’s comment or their job as you did with kevin B and bob O when they took at shot at the almighty one..
Well, I keep telling you the reason for that, IMO.
I feel it’s just shooting the messenger. To me, accountability starts at the top and the top in this case is the Wilpons. They’re solely responsible for the financial situation as well as every FO they’ve hired.
Conspiracy theory or not, I’m still sticking to my opinion that SA was part of the deal the Wilpons cut with Selig to save the team for them.
Sandy was def part of that package deal…if the wilpons wanted financial relief and loans from Bud….there were going to be some strings attached…
Sandy = that string
You couldn’t be more wrong that I go out of my way to ‘blast’ anyone’s opinions here or have remotely tried to discredit anyone. I dare you to find one example of that…just one.
Unless you feel that stating my opinion, which might be opposite of yours and others is ‘blasting’.
Problem with some of you seems to be if any of us don’t come out railing against the FO as Sandy haters, then we all must be Sandy lovers. Keep trying to tell you, you’re way off on that assumption. You just don’t want to read it, hear it, believe it. Your choice, but you might want to stop getting so angry with those that won’t join your ‘Coeur’. We’re entitled to our own opinion, same as you.
“Problem with some of you seems to be if any of us don’t come out railing against the FO as Sandy haters, then we all must be Sandy lovers.”
Agreed, I stop playing super hero games when I was a child. I have no legion or following and I don’t need a name for a fictitious group to give my opinions any more or less merit.
Alex, it’s my theory and I’m anything but an Alderson supporter. Like you, I was questioning him long before it became popular.
My theory is trying to find a reason why Fred would completely change in MO when it comes to the Mets…and why they would hire Alderson in the first place and why he still has a job today.
It also helps explain why SA seems more concerned with the amount of the Payroll and not who’s on the payroll.
This isn’t excusing what Sandy has done or forgives the mistakes by the Wilpons…but rather tries to explain it better.
Some may call my theory a crazy conspiracy and odds are that I’m off the mark on some of it, but I bet you I’m closer to the truth than many believe.
I am not as big on the conspiracy part of this, however, I think someone did have a talk with Fred and tell him to get his house in order or there would be consequences. Thus the major cut in frivolous spending.
Hey, the whole thing could have been a “Fred, all the other owners are worried and your debts are getting out of hand…I really really think it’s a good idea that you to hire my guy and let him run things until he gets you back on good footing”
Thing is also, it seems that the only move he can make is via FA. all we talk about is we have to sign someone and we have no money.. as if that’s the only way we can acquire good players or players to help us out.. there’s no creativity, no plan, no execution from this FO..
Well obviously we did have the Beltran trade which appears to be in line with the plan of building around young pitching as evident by the Niese extension. However, could there have been more trades? Sure. I think a lot of the reason for lack of movement so far is that there had to be some period of getting to know what you have and are those players problems or solutions. Example, Ike, Duda, Thole, Tejada, Gee…. Hit, miss, miss, hit, hit…
We’ll see.. Because is becoming quite clear this team’s FO just don’t give a F***.. I mean, how else can you explain being a GM and have 8 staright losing season and not care!
Personally I don’t give a damn about what he did in SD and Oakland. However, how is it that you don’t give him credit for the winning seasons in SD but then when it comes to blaming him for what happen when he left SD you count it?
Winning season in SD?
He became CEO in 2005…( not GM )
The Padres were 87–75 in 2004…
The Padres were 82–80 in 2005…
Kevin Towers was the GM of San Diego from 1995-2009…thats 14 years…Sandy jumps on as CEO in 2005…and somehow magically he gets credit for a season that they actually declined in..
…and also magically escapes the criticism of leaving the team in much worse shape than when he found it…
Met fans are like republicans….
If you make this political don’t be complaining when you get your butt kicked in a debate as well.
what happened in 2006?
January 6, 2006: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Terrmel Sledge and Chris Young to the San Diego Padres for Billy Killian (minors), Adam Eaton and Akinori Otsuka.
(Adrian Gonzalez)
Now look, nobody here can ever tell you what 1 guy did in a front office or what the other guy did.
However let me just say this about San Diego. People here like to point at SD and give blame to Alderson but never credit. What you probably don’t realize is ownership was losing money because of a divorce ala LAD and it was effecting the day to day operations. If you ask Padres fans, they’ll tell you Moores had more to do with failure of the Padres than Alderson.
There is more to the whole situation than simply looking at the standings and saying “Alderson failed.”
First, he wasn’t put in a position to succeed by his owner – Second, he did things there that will help them in the long run that you don’t see in standings… for example setting up shop in the Dominican Republic when the Padres had no presence there.
You’re right, it was towers not byrnes the GM who had put that team together.. But don’t tell that to some of this people…
If you don’t give a damn what he did in oakland, why the constant reminder from you and your crew members about him being a WS champion? and building up the A’s? and how he was a genius etc?? i don’t care what he did in SD either, my point is, he was able to be under the radar while being there and noone noticing how the payroll shrunk big time while he was there and the same strategy they’re using here was the one they used in SD and noone care, well my friend, here in NY we do care. that is why he’s facing the heat of the media and fans…
Show me one post where I call Alderson a genius. The only time anyone that you are saying is in my group, are we really still doing this, says anything about a championship is when someone says something dumb like he has never won anything or he has never spent money.
I have said all along what he did in Oakland or SD is that in fact they are not relevant here because the situation is so much different.
Also, do you really think that being questioned on a couple of blogs and by Mike Fattyfat is actually facing the pressure of the media and fans? About 90% of the fans either never have cared whom the GM is to start with or are understanding of the situation and are still patiently waiting to pass judgment. What you are asking for will happen eventually if things don’t turn around but right now there’s about as much pressure as there is on a batter in the Cubs and Astros game.
You also didn’t answer the questions. How is it that you can blame Sandy for what occurred in SD after he left but then not give him credit for their winning seasons? I guess it’s because that would break the stupid streak you keep referring to.
WAS HE A GM IN SD??????? How stupid can you be!?!?!?!? He wanted to install a moneyball culture in SD as wel by bringing in his buddy depodesta along with himbryl, that is why he and GM byrnes didn’t see eye to eye….
OK so as I said if you are not giving him credit for the successes in SD then you can’t use his time there against him either. So basically the entire point is moot.
Oh and how stupid can I be? Would you like a “retraction” from that statement because otherwise it is a “detraction”.
TRS: If the Cubs win a World Series – you think anybody will ever say “Theo did nothing.”
Of course not.
Same job at Alderson in SD, but its convenient to ignore a 90 win season because “9 straight losing seasons with 2 division titles in the middle.” just doesn’t sound as good.
Theo Epstein has won 2 Ws in the past 8 years. successful young man, really into the game… it’s a disrespect to compare SA with theo right now.. It’s not even close… ohhh and btw, he admitted cubs were rebuilding as a president… Sandy has never even attempt to say the truth ato mets fans…
you do realize that Theo is everything you deride Sandy for being, right? Not old school, not a “real” BB guy, a saber stat head # guy that never played, etc? just with 20 or so less years being involved in BB?
Alex, I am not sure math is ever your strong point but perhaps I am missing something. At times you have said 9 straight losing seasons, most of the time including today you are saying 8 straight losing seasons. Help me out.
93 (1), 94 (2), 95 (3), 96 (4), 97 (5), 2011 (6), 2012 (7).
Ok, to make your point more valid:
Sandy Alderson, President 1993-1995, 1997-1998; General Manager 1983-1998
Can we also add the 1998 season please???? That’ll make your 8 STRAIGHT SEASON AS A LOSING GM… make that 9 with this 2013 punting year…
Thanks for making my point. So you are giving him the blame for 1998 when he was only president right? OK then you have to give him credit when he was president for the Padres. Thanks for agreeing with me, so the streak is actually 4. Correct?
Wow… Just wow.. He was president and GM … from 1993-1995 then again in 1998 along with sabergooner billy…
BEANE TAKES OVER FOR ALDERSON
FORMER GM WILL REMAIN TEAM PRESIDENT
Published on October 18, 1997, Page C4, Article 1 of 1 found, 546 words.
** Filling the shoes of Sandy Alderson, the architect of three World Series teams in Oakland, won’t be easy. So new A’s general manager Billy Beane said he won’t even try.
“The first order of business will be to simplify the vocabulary a little bit,” said Beane, who will succeed the Harvard-educated Alderson.
Alderson, who left his law practice to join the A’s in 1981, officially relinquished his title
Read more here: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SB&p_theme=sb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB0469479C08F93&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM#storylink=cpy
“you do realize that Theo is everything you deride Sandy for being”
Hardly stick….Theo doesn’t ignore what the Sabers tell him because of the price.
Doesn’t discard the top players on his list because they cost too much.
People really need to do at least a little research when you have an agenda. When Alderson became President in SD the team had a 55 million dollar payroll. It went up in each of hs first 2 years, back down a little in his third and jumped up 15 million in his 4th season. Then John Moores, the owner ordered him to slash payroll to 40 million. So payroll went up from 55 mil in 04, he took over in 2005 and in his 2nd to last year the payroll jumped up to 73 million, highest in team history until the owner forced him to cut payroll. But hey it sounds better to call him a moneyballer.
■2009: $ 43,734,200
■2008: $ 73,677,616
■2007: $ 58,110,567
■2006: $ 69,896,642
■2005: $ 63,290,833
■2004: $ 55,384,833
And this losing streak changes daily. First it was 7, then 8 and now it’s up to 9 for some people. A’s had losing seasons from 93-97 his last year as GM and 2 years here. If you’re not counting SD’s winning seasons on his resume then you can’t count 1998 as a losing seeason since he was the President and Beane was GM. Can’t have it both ways. Can’t point out facts though or else Sandy is your lord. it’s much better to be inaccurate and make up stories.
That’s my point, they assess blame for times that they actually give no credit to in reverse.
You can’t have it both ways and honestly, why do we give a damn what he did there?
And you need to do some research and understand that just becaus Payroll goes up doesn’t mean the GM spent!
Arbitration, Previously signed backloaded contracts, and inflation can account for ALL of tat increase you keep touting as SPENDING.
The thing Alex, I think there is a plan…it’s not in Aldersons character not to have a plan.
The problem is the goal. Our goal as fans is to have the team win…we all want a winner.
Sandys goal isn’t about winning. It’s about getting the team profitable again. He’s gonna get the team back in the black and leave and hopefully he successor will have plenty of young talent and financial freedom to build a winner. This is all part of his five year plan. He knows what he’s doing. That’s why we don’t see any real additions to the roster…that’s why nobody gets offered more than two years, but usually only one.
That’s why we won’t see any major changes this year and the only changes we’ll see next year have to do with Bay, Santana, Wright and RAD coming off the books.
Maybe Wright can get extended, You can pay him the same as what his option is and not hurt payroll and next year, you’ll just have to transfer the chunk that Bay was taking over to Wright.
Me personally, I hate the way Alderson is doing it. I think it’s better to invest money in players and get people to the park and watching TV to turn a profit instead of being OK with losing and crushing the fans base in the process. You have to remember that the Mets aren’t the only team in town. You lose fan interest, they’ll turn to the Yanks, Giant, Jets, Net, Knicks or what ever else. New Yorkers aren’t going to pay to watch a loser.
USMF, while i agree with you in some point, you cannot help to wonder why was that not the plan the told us the fans who actually pay for tickets and team merchandise etc? Theo got to the cup and said: “be patient, we’ll rebuild to make a championship team” noone in chicago is crying wolf because he was honest, and he has a plan… this man has been lying from day one, his arrogance and snarky ass comments have left a bad taste in a lot of mets fans, and instead of him apeace the fan base, he keeps taking shots at us and insulting our inteligence with ridiculous comments about PPA while in an interview about the team’s state.. it’s pathetic what we have been put trough the last 2 years. we lost 3 All Stars, got nothing in return.. and all we worry about is we have no money! it’s the wilpons fault.. well, isn’t he supposed to be this great evaluator who finds undervalue players to help the team…
I don’t want to be appeased. I want a sustainable winner, something the Mets haven’t had in a long time.
I think there is some truth to what you are saying but I think his plan is also to build a sustainable winner instead of a one year wonder. Of course he wants to win in the longrun because that will increase revenue.
You also have to keep in mind that in order to invest money in players you have to have money to invest. It’s a catch 22. If the Wilpons were to fork out say an extra 30M on payroll and then that still turn out like the Marlins then they would most likely lose control of the team making a futile attempt at a one year turn-around. I think that is why you are seeing a much slower more controlled plan because the Wilpons themselves can’t absorb the losses and the team is too much in hock to borrow that money on it’s own.
That’s the problem with the MLB…there are a few ways to turn a profit and one way to lose money
Teams can spend a ton of money and stock up on great players and win like the Yanks, Sox and Phils. Winning fills the park and sells merchandise. The problem there is that it can backfire on you too…Yanks have out spent their mistakes and age problem, but as we see with the Sox, Phils, Marlins and the Mets, if something goes wrong, the whole thing can backfire on you and you lose (may) money…I Mets lost that way and I think the Marlins have too…the Phils and Sox I think still should make a profit, but next year may be a different story.
You can not spend money and keep payroll down and hope that you can build a winner from within. Do to revenue sharing, you’ll still make money/profit…but it’s hard to get the fans to get behind a team like that. Look at how hard it is for people to come out and see the Rays…they’ve been winning and still can’t fill the park The Marlins did nothing for years and then because they opened a new park and spent a ton of cash they expected to fill the park and it didn’t happen, of course the team sucking didn’t help either.
Or you could just lose and make money no matter what the the Marlins have done and the Pirates have done.
What’s scary is the the team is losing money and cutting spending…that’s a bad sign. But i bet they are doing better than we think…wait until the big MLB check goes out. Didn’t I read somewhere that the Mets are now getting $30mil from MLB instead of paying them a few mill every year?
Oh don’t get me wrong, I think to win you have to eventually spend money.
It’s just a while back I heard one of the GM’s on MLBN say something that I thought about and it summed up my feelings as well.
You don’t head into FA looking for pieces to bring you to the top, doing that is a recipe for disaster and if you do it could back fire and set your organization back a decade. You use FA to put you over the top once you have built from within. That way you are much more able to tolerate a bad signing or injury.
Thus I do think the Mets are almost to that point of needed to spend again, while I don’t think that year is next year yet I still do believe that some moves can be made this off-season with the current budget and future projection of players in mind.
Thus if there is a player like BJ Upton who fits the long-term goal and you can get him for that odd contract I have been proposing then sure. It’s still a risk but it’s calculated on the rest of the team being more ready in 2014.
All good points that I largely agree with.
Trimming the fat, so to speak, is done all the time in business. But if you don’t invest in your product, you’re not going to get very far.
Yup, basically I view this year as the second year in restructuring the company and hope once that is done they will reinvest.
Not arguing, so don’t take it that way…it’s an honest question…
Do you remember who the other candidates were? I honestly don’t remember any interviews…all i recall was some names thrown out by the media which many people take as facts and not speculation.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5715234
Here’s one article:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-10-14/sports/27078108_1_fred-wilpon-chicago-white-sox-assistant-jerry-manuel
Snippet:
‘The Mets are still in the process of requesting permission to speak with candidates employed by other teams and were impressed by those who interviewed this week. Wilpon and Ricco interviewed Boston assistant GM Allard Baird on Monday, Chicago White Sox assistant GM Rick Hahn on Tuesday and former Arizona GM Josh Byrnes Wednesday. They will speak to Dodgers assistant GM Logan White Friday.’
OK thanks.
really enjoyed the article…nicely done!
however, i disagree on its substance. as Branch Rickey said – we can finish last (or here, fourth), with our without these guys.
Bottom line is this – if we were competitive or had money, its a no brainer to resign david long term.
given that we have neither, why tie up payroll on what could be a highly overpaid player for the second half of what will be a very long term contract? that’s why we’ve suffered the last several years in the first place.
Sorry, this is way off topic, but Adam Rubin posted a “Remember This” photo that had me cracking up just now:
http://twitter.yfrog.com/klcd4idmj
Ohhhh, I know someone who will like that….
^^ This?
Lol, BINGO!
This one pissed me off just for the sake of how out of touch they are. I am fine with them being rich and trying to maintain their way of life after being swindled but if you whining that you got swindled at least park the copter down the road instead of showing off.
I was floored when that happened at the height of the Picard stuff. I couldn’t believe they would do something so blatantly stupid.
Joe D. — Love ya man, but sometimes you’re such a populist, just focusing on the optics of an event. Why do you assume the passengers didn’t pay for the short ride to Miami (as I remember it?) out of their own pockets. Probably they didn’t but why assume they didn’t?
Well Des how could they pay it out of thier own pockets when all we hear on a daily basis is they are broke, have no money and thats why Sandy doesn’t spend?
The Wilpons aren’t broke…far from it. The Mets are broke, which is different all together.
I didn’t care about this story one way or the other when it broke but I highly doubt the Wilpons paid for that out of Mets money. If they did, they should be tarred and feathered.
So I ask why are the mets broke SRT because of the Wilpons?
Or because we keep shooting our sttendance in the foot by not making a deal that gives people hope and going on TV and pretty much throwing in the towel each July?
As well documented, it’s a combination of under projected revenues since Citi field opened, making it difficult to meet payroll and debt. That along with the monies they lost due to Madoff, legal expenses and money they had to pay back due to the settlement with Picard & Co. rather than go to trial. Think that alone was $162 MIL.
So to answer one of your questions, most undoubtedly yes….low attendance and revenues definitely contributed to the problem.
So is that Wilpon’s fault really?
In 2009 they didn’t lose a penny.
Attendance has gone down every year since then I just don’
t see how the Wilpons have caused that and constantly get blamed for the financial problems.
I don’t know what to tell you Metsie.
If it wasn’t the Wilpons that had all Mets monies tied up in those Madoff accounts, then who was it?
If you want to put blame on revenue figures wouldn’t it always start with the owners of a ball club? They set the payroll, right?
And I believe they did make revenue money in 2009 – first year Citi was opened. But if I’m not mistaken, it was still under what they had projected for the first year. All subsequent years were of course operating in the red.
So your saying Madoff made attendance decline is that right?
There is a correct answer here you know…It’s just that you are reluctant to say what it is…
Who did they hire that has made attendance decline….
His name isn’t Madoff.
Madoff is NOT why people stopped going to see the team play and reduced the revenue.
Why was the attendance below projections? Based on the money they had invested in Madoff cause thats what you seem to say.
1 – The Mets had RECORD BREAKING ATTENDANCE RECORDS in 2006-2007-2008…
where did the profit of that money go?
2 – The Mets will make almost 100 mil in revenue before they sell 1 citifield ticket
Citigroup – 20 mil
TV Rev sharing – 50 mil
MLBAM rev sharing – 30 mil
and this does NOT include Merchandise sharing….or SNY money….if we include THOSE numbers…we are talking almost 200 MIL in revenue….BEFORE any attendance is factored in.
1- Payroll and revenue sharing
2- They also owe a lot of money for CitiField, SNY, and payroll.
You are assuming they start every year at 0. They don’t. They’ve been starting in the red
And from what I’m reading, ending in the red as well for 2012 – which is why it doesn’t surprise me that the payroll will not be increasing.
I’m wondering what ‘creative’ tricks they’ve got up their sleeve to meet debt going into the 2013 season.
SNY is in the black…they make about 60 mil in profit after they split the proceeds with the other people that started it off…
…and again….the loot they made off with for 3 years in a row ( 06-08) went in their pockets…09-10-11 now they wanna act like a startup business…
in reality….they cant operate the ballclub w/o the madoff money they were counting one every year…that was part of the equity they said they had in taking out the loans to finance Citifield..
….to me…a potential sale in the future is why the mets/red-sox dont want future financial burden…
rumor has it that the red sox may be selling their team in the near future as well…I ( hopefully ) see the wilpons/selig just prepping the team up to be sold…a NYC team with 0 committed dollars to the future + SNYdollars + the fact that they are in the biggest media market in the world can net the wilpons at least 1.5 -2.0 bil
Wow…Red Sox selling? Interesting…first I’ve heard of that.
Hiring that CPG (if I’ve got that name right) company, slashing payroll, downsizing, etc. I believe was part of a plan to pay down debt in the event the Wilpons had no choice but to sell should they have lost some billion dollar lawsuit with Picard. Since that lawsuit was settled for a ‘mere’ $162 MIL, in the short run they’ve been able to hold onto the team. Remains to be seen what happens going forward.
But if they are going to sell, the less debt the team is carrying, the more profit in their pockets.
I heard that report on the Sox and they adamantly opposed it but that has to be taken with a grain of salt as well.
To me I never have cared for stuff like that. I don’t care if they ride a damn personal jet and drop in by parachute as long as they run their organization with an ounce of credibility.
Well said Tie Dyed!
Thanks Metsie
We’re always talking about how much we love David Wright and we want to see him retire as a Met. If we really had any humanity, we would urge him to bolt this sorry, stinking, rotting corpse of a franchise. He loves New York…. I could see him playing 3rd base for the Yankees in ’14. In any case he’ll make so much money elsewhere (Philadelphia, Baltimore?) in 2014, that he’ll never have to leave the greatest city on the planet.
scary…but i said the same thing last year…
i can see David Wright and Jose Reyes riding off into the sunset of their careers as Yankee World Series winners the way we saw Doc + Darryl…
then the yankees can say it was the Yankee way that made it happen…
when in reality it was the Wilpon way that made sure it would NEVER happen for DW + JR
Excellent work – this is right on point.
I watched last night as the Yankees waltzed into the playoffs yet again. Our best case scenario is to resign the players that led us to another sub-500 season – yay!
I’m disgusted to be a Mets fan… yet again.