10
2012
Pre-Heat The Hot Stove: Mets & Rockies A Match?
An article by 
You’ve heard it, I’ve heard, everybody has heard it. The Mets do not plan on being active through free agency but they do intend on being active through trades this winter.
Only time will tell what really happens, but those words from Alderson has pre-heated the hot stove oven for sure!
Everywhere you go, you see a list of trade possibilities. J.P. Arencibia, Justin Upton, Josh Willingham, trading Wright, trading Dickey. The list goes on.
The only other team I have seen reportedly looking to be very active in the trade market is the Colorado Rockies.
The Rockies are not looking to deal Tulowitzki, but instead wish to rely on their slew of young outfielders to net them a deal where they are weak. Two of the players being discussed as trade possibilities are Michael Cuddyer and Dexter Fowler. They are also contemplating an extension with Fowler – they haven’t decided one way or the other yet.
At 33, Cuddyer hit .260 with 16HR and 58 RBI while the 26 year old CF Dexter Fowler hit .300 with 13HR 53RBI and 12SB.
Before we get too far, I know you’re wondering about their Coors Field splits.
Cuddyer: .858 Home OPS, .744 Road OPS.
Fowler: .984 Home OPS, .720 Road OPS.
You can certainly make an argument that they are helped by Coors Field, but in 2011 Cuddyer played in a very tough pitchers park in Minnesota and his splits were .829 to .784. So the ability to hit in a tough park is certainly there for Cuddyer.
The same can be said for Fowler who in 2011, had a home OPS of .811 and a road OPS of .782.
Cuddyer is a right handed bat who can play 1B, RF and 3B as well. He is signed through 2014 making $10.5m per season with performance bonuses up to $1.5m in 2014.
He would give the Mets a RF they badly need, but also a safety net at 1B depending on how Ike does against lefties. Cuddyer is a .287 hitter against LHP.
Dexter Fowler is a switch hitting CF who will be in his 2nd year of arbitration this offseason. He made $2.35m last year as a Super-Two player. He plays a very good CF, and has a lot of speed but hasn’t mastered the art of the stolen base yet.
In order for the Rockies to wheel and deal, they need pitching and they need to swap some strengths and fill in some weaknesses.
Back in December, there were talks that the Mets were interested in Eric Young Jr., and that the Rockies were interested in Jon Niese & Justin Turner.
Young Jr played in 98 games, hit .316 with a .825 OPS and 14 steals.
So that is where I start. I begin with Niese and Turner for EY Jr. Now, I want Fowler & Cuddyer so what can the Mets throw in to sweeten the deal?
Well, let’s say for arguments sake the Mets are going into 2012 with Dickey, Harvey, Johan. Then you have Wheeler, Mejia, McHugh, Familia, Gee, and maybe Young or Pelfrey all fighting for two spots.
So, I give the Rockies Gee. I like Gee, he’s a tough kid but he’s never going to net the Mets more than this deal could accomplish. He’s MLB ready and proven which is what Colorado needs.
So we’re at Niese, Turner, Gee for Cuddyer, Fowler, Eric Young Jr.
My last offer would include Daniel Murphy. Another player I’d hate to see go, but if the Mets look to add Young Jr. then part of the reason is a need for speed and athleticism at 2B. That leaves Murphy out.
So that’s my offer: Jon Niese, Justin Turner, Dillon Gee, Daniel Murphy for Michael Cuddyer, Dexter Fowler, and Eric Young Jr. That’s the foundation of the deal, minor league throw ins not included.
I think it’d be a tough deal for both sides. Me, I’d hate to see everybody but Turner go, but the greater good will be worth it. The Rockies I’m sure would hate to give up so much on offense, but if they are as confident in guys like Tyler Colvin then they need to trade some pieces now to get the arms they so desperately need.
Both teams accomplish what they need to do in order to revamp their rosters. The Rockies get 2 young proven arms that don’t cost a ton, they also get a backup infielder in Turner and a guy in Murphy who will likely flourish in Colorado.
The Mets, they fill their needs in the outfield, they rely more heavily on defense at 2B and they continue to work on their younger pitchers to find spots for them in the future. This would mean the Mets only need to focus on bullpen arms and a catcher in a potential deal/signing and gives them a lot more chances to rely on the minor leagues for such a deal.
So what do you think? First, what are your thoughts on a kid like Dexter Fowler patrolling CF at Citi Field?
Second, is my trade offer too much, not enough, just right?
What would you look to do with Colorado if they are actively shopping Fowler & Cuddyer?
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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Moronic trade idea.
thanks for reading anyway!
fowler would be an interesting guy to add for CF. But not trading Neise for him. Or EY.
stick, to get fowler – what would you give up and expect Colorado to accept?
I would have to do some research on him. But, I would be looking more to trading guys like Familia as a basis. And of course the Mchughs of the world!
and I suspect there are other guys that can do what Fowler can (outside of Coors especially) for less than a Neise back.
I wonder what it would take to get Carlos Gomez to share time with Kirk?
Amen. Familia & Mejia!
Don’t want Cuddyer. Certianly interested in Fowler. EY Jr. is interesting, for sure. But trading Niese is a No No. I’d rather trade Wright or Dickey. And I don’t want to trade Wright.
Dickey is the perfect sell High guy, if you need to sell him off and Toronto is a better find for prospects and such, in my mind, and their number one need is front line SP.
hey thanks for the comments!
Question for you: If the Rox wanted Dickey to replace Niese in my offer – would you do it?
Also, I think Brandon Morrow in Toronto is pretty dang good… if they don’t appreciate him as a #1 – I’ll take him!
Dickey I would think could net you Fowler, EY JR. and their catching prospect. Or at least that is what I would hold out for.
Does altitude mess with a knuckleball?
He’s actually never pitched at Coors with the knuckler – so I don’t know. I think Dickey’s value honestly is based on 2 things: #1 Contract #2 Team’s perception of knuckler/age
There are going to be teams that want nothing to do with him
I hate the idea of trading Niese. He’s young, cheap, cost-controlled, and still has room to improve. He’s what we build with, not what we trade in hopes of improving.
That said, I don’t see this trade happening because the Mets would be adding on a lot of salary in Cuddyer and the arbitration raise Fowler is getting.
Hi Hank, thanks for writing. I agree with you on the idea of losing Niese – but you gotta give to get right? If we agree the Mets have a lot of options in starting pitching moving forward, can they use that as an advantage in the trade market?
They need CF, RF, C would you agree? So if you’re looking at trades, you need to give a strength to fix a weakness.
Also just in terms of $, the total value of the 3 Rox players is roughly $15m in 2013 while the Mets total value is roughly $7m… so you’re talking about $8m roughly, and that doesn’t account for the potential for cash exchanging hands.
I understand needing to trade value to get other value back, but If I am trading Neise (and I don’t want to, and don’t think that have that much real depth (as opposed to bodies).
But, if I am trading Neise, I am not doing it ofr those particular guys back.
I think we’re mostly agreed. We have pitching, so it’s an area of strength, and thus where we could trade from. We need CF, RF, and C and the trade adds $8MM in additional payroll.
However, I don’t think pitching is such a strength that we can move Niese. Johan is still fragile. Gee is also coming back a severe injury. Harvey looks to be part of the future, but he’s still young and yet to be proven over even an entire season. Dickey is unresolved. Therefore, going forward, there’s an argument to be made that Niese is the surest thing we have in our rotation.
I like the creativity though. I even like the return. I just don’t like moving our sure thing. That, and I also don’t see the Mets adding this $8MM in contracts.
I appreciate the feedback. A lot of Niese’s value to the Mets truly depends on where they have Wheeler, Mejia, McHugh, Familia, Hefner, Harvey and what they plan to do with Gee/Pelfrey.
It’s a tricky spot. Most teams do not have 8 young pitchers who could possibly be on the big league roster in 2013, paired with a potential cy young and a former cy young (who granted is questionable).
That’s why I consider it a strength really… because the depth is there.
2 words “No Way”.
No way – you don’t like Fowler/Cuddyer/EY or no way you don’t want to trade Niese?
None of the players coming back are equal to Niese in my opinion and then on top of that you want to include Gee who has shown himself to be a solid back of the rotation starter who outside of 3 or 4 starts was having a good season. I value them higher than anything you listed as coming back. We need a CF but Niese is a steep price for Fowler.
That should of read “combined I value them higher”.
NJ – that’s fair. I think you’re undervaluing Fowler a bit in terms of what the Mets have in the OF but that’s okay. We will agree to disagree
Ya, but “better than what we have” is a pretty low bar.
A guy like Niese should be able to get you a pretty decent OF by himself.
You could (or should) be right. But who? Okay put it like this
Jon Niese has to be traded (he doesn’t in reality), what OF by himself will be worth it that is realistically out there?
The reason I built the trade AROUND Niese is because I feel Murphy+Gee+Turner have less value than I think most of the comments here do. I’m practically suggesting it’s Fowler+Cuddy+EY Jr for Niese because I like Gee but I think he’s replaceable and I think Murphy ‘s value is tricky based on his lack of fielding expertise and no useable speed, and Turner is a backup.
I agree, if you trade Niese and Gee then you are locking yourself in to a Dickey contract. You are taking 2/5 of the 2013 rotation out.
I don’t like it…and not just because I really like three of the four pieces you’re looking to trade.
My number 1 rule if I were are GM is: You NEVER trade young pitching and you should almost never be the team to give a pitcher his first big FA contract.
Your deal has us trading two solid young pitchers which is a definite NO. The other thing is, people are suddenly assuming that the Mets have a wealth of young pitching. It’s just no the case.
After next year; The Mets currently have only Neise, Gee and Harvey for the rotation. RAD is a question mark and Wheeler hasn’t pitched in the majors yet, so until he does, you can’t mark him down as a given. Familia and Mejia are probably best suited for the Pen and McHugh and Hefner haven’t shown they can be successful starters every 5th day. Anyone else is to far out to predict.
You trade two of our three starters in 2014 and now you need to fill four spots in the rotation. Sure maybe you can extend RAD and Wheeler is good and ready, but you still you have to sign two starters from FA and the Mets don’t have the money to do that.
The only reason why I’ve tolerated anything SA has done was because this is an opportunity to build a solid young base that could be used to sustain a long run.
USMF: If the Rockies said they’d do my offer if we give them Dickey rather than Niese – do you do it?
I agree with you on principle of trading young pitchers, I just think in order to fill multiple weaknesses you have to look to your strengths to get it done.
looking at the entire lay of the Met land, I would trade Dickey before Neise.
Easy call. I would in an open market trade Dickey for Niese much less choosing who to trade.
If it was just RAD and the Mets could keep Niese and Gee then I’d consider it…but it’d be tough because I love RAD and it would be very hard to trade away a top ten starter in the league for a few plugin pieces…as good as Cuddyer can be, he’s not a long term solution.
Adding Cuddyer would mean that you’d adding 21mil to the payroll because they’d making a push within the next year or so. But if you trade RAD, they you’d be giving up a corner stone pitcher that you’d need for that push so it doesn’t add up.
plus, I don’t consider the Mets pitching a strength right now, it’s just stronger than the rest of their depth.
Unless you are getting a player back like CarGon (which aint happening) Niese should not even be discussed.
You got a 25 year old leftie making 3m next year and rising up to , 5m, 7m, 9m and then 2 option years for 2017, 2018. How can you build up if you get rid of the foundation. Trading Niese is literally like starting over. Harvey, Niese and Wheeler is definitely what we want in place to move forward. Not friggen Cuddyer.
hey Salty thanks for writing!
CarGo is a drastically different hitter outside of Coors Field.
I see what you’re saying in the shoutbox there and I want to be clear. I’m not trying to get rid of Niese. I’m trying to get something back of value for him that can help not only the future but the present.
I think Niese’s ceiling at best is a quality #2 but most likely a #3 and there’s nothing wrong with that.
My issue is if the Mets are signing Wright then they aren’t trading him – so me worrying about what to get for Wright via trade is a waste of my time.
If they believe Wheeler, Mejia, McHugh, Familia, Hefner, Harvey are all capable of being potential starters PLUS the coaching staff wants Pelfrey PLUS RA Dickey then you need to find a strength out there that you can afford to lose in order to build up a weakness, right?
That strength to me is Jon Niese. A good, not great pitcher – who is locked up, and young and a lefty.
I get that he’s valuable, that’s why I’m trying to use him to get a 26 year old speedy CF. Are the Mets in a better spot with Hairston/Kirk/Murphy in RF/CF/2B but with Jon Niese or are they in a better spot with Cuddyer/Fowler/EY Jr?
I personally think its the latter. I totally agree that it’d be hard to make the deal. It’s those kind of deals that you gotta make sometimes though because talented players aren’t just given away in today’s game right?
Niese as a 3rd in the rotation is the correct rating. His value to the Mets far exceeds anything that we could get in return from Colorado. Fowler would be nice in CF but I think you can get a player like that with other more expendable pieces that the team has.
Seems like a little too much. I’d give them Turner definitely, but not Niese, Gee or Murphy. They’re all young and have proven themselves at the MLB level. We need to build around them instead of trading them away. I like Eric Young Jr and Fowler, so maybe Turner and Mejia for them? Sprinkle in a few prospects and maybe something could be worked out.
Eddie: hey thanks for commenting! From Troy Renck who covers the Rockies via Denver Post – he said the Rockies would deal Fowler for young mlb ready arms, that they want to revamp their rotation now.
Turner to me is a total throw in and has 0 value… so you’re trying to sell the idea of a young CF and a 2B for Mejia and I don’t see why Colorado would want to do that. I think Mejia’s value on a trade market may be less than you think? At least in this scenario of a team wanting a “now” pitcher.
Let me ask you this: If trade talks started with Fowler+EY Jr for Niese. Would you take it?
Whoops, forgot to click reply. My comment is down there.
Way too much. I wouldnt mind dealing an arm for Fowler, but if Niese goes in the deal, I’d want more than just Fowler. Maybe Niese and Turner for Fowler and Wilin Rosario, the young catcher.
I’d want Young due to him also being an outfielder. Having him out in center or right with his speed would be great. Just felt like clearing that up.
As tempting as that would be, I’d have to decline. Niese just can not be given up unless it’s for an outfielder who can swing for the fences or two extremely solid proven outfielders. I see the point you’re making but for those two players I wouldn’t pull the trigger. Why not (Turner included in all these deals) Hefner, or Familia or even McHugh? Maybe package two of them together. The farthest I’d go is Gee with Turner/Mejia/Familia/McHugh/Schwinden. In my opinion Niese just can not be touched.
Eddie – Good discussion… and thanks again for it.
“Why not (Turner included in all these deals) Hefner, or Familia or even McHugh?”
Because I honestly feel like outside of Familia, everybody in that package has 0 value. Familia’s value is truly based on a scouts belief, so I can’t really answer. I’d expect 1 team may love him while another may hate him.
Trade talks are fun right? The tricky part is finding an idea that doesn’t totally screw over the other team. Would I be ecstatic if your offer actually happened? Yes. But that’s why I don’t think it will.
If you’re the Rockies, realistically what would you want?
Well if I were the Rockies realistically I’d want the Detroit Tigers GM to go insane and trade me Justin Verlander for a double a prospect haha.
You do raise a good point, from their perspective they may not want any of those young pitchers if they want ready to go pitchers. I think if Niese can’t be agreed upon, then maybe Gee and other Mets pitching prospects not named Wheeler. How about Hefner? He’s pitched quite well and can be somebody the Rockies can build around. Turner, Hefner and any other prospect for those two guys, or just Turner and Hefner for only Young or Fowler.
Keep in mind that if Colorado is really going to be heavily involved with trades, they will get more pitching from other teams. Maybe even a Verlander-esque pitcher for a Carlos Gonzales-esque player. Not saying that would happen, but they can get more pitching from elsewhere. We’d only ask for a player they didn’t use much for a bench player and a young pitcher with promise.
I think Turner/Hefner would get you Fowler’s luggage ha… it’s tricky because we as fans don’t want to give up anybody that has significant value… but that’s the tough part about trading.
I don’t want them giving Niese away… but if there is value to be had out there, its gotta happen
Turner is playing winter ball this year. I’d like to see him play some outfield. As too Niese it was odd that last winter he was shopped around, then signed long term at the start of the season. Was his spring that good? It seems to me that Niese is even more marketable than he was last year.
Jessep, I am sorry but for this trade idea you get what you deserve.
thanks TRS – I’m not afraid of people disagreeing with me.
So let me ask you this: Fowler, Cuddyer, EY Jr for Niese – do you take it?
Nope.
Cuddyer:
2013 34 Colorado Rockies $10,500,000
2014 35 Colorado Rockies $10,500,000
Fowler: Super two made 2.3M last year.
Young: actually intriguing.
Is that because you love Niese and he’s untouchable or because you’re down on Fowler+Cuddyer?
Neither.
It’s based on need and strength. Without Niese you have no other LH starter than can split up your young RH and please don’t say Johan. There’s no one close in the system. Once you have done that and possibly traded Gee too you have turned a strength into a need all while obtaining an older player in Cuddyer and a guy we are not so sure on in Fowler. We know that Niese can and does pitch well in NY and is signed long-term.
Why on earth would we trade a cheap young LH SP when we have no LH pitchers even close to being ready?
Just say no!
Yes we make a good fit with them, they needpitching, we have a bit more than we can use.
Niese trade? NOPE! He is probably our Ace if Dickey isn’t here, I know you guys love Harvey and Wheeler but lets face facts MAYBE in 3 years they can be aces….
Trade mejia and Familia one some of those AA Pitchers Sandy was talking about.
We need to stop looking at the MLB roster, deciding what is good and then finding a way to get rid of it for guys who work where they are but are not great ballplayers at all.
And suggesting a 6 player deal is never going to happen so I don’t even know why you bothered.
“And suggesting a 6 player deal is never going to happen so I don’t even know why you bothered.”
To start a conversation that has yet to happen?
thanks for the response
But it’s a conversation to send away major contributors to the team away for marginal improvement in other areas.
I see no place where the team is stronger if we make that deal.
You MIGHT improve the OF but so little compared to how much you weakend the rotation in a major way.
Look what happened to this team when it lost Gee this year.
Imagine what that would have looked like if it was Niese instead.
Are those players your asking for back really going to offset that loss?
They won’t even scratch the surface!
What you did was look for guys you think are bad enough that the Rockies will part with and then looked for two really GOOD players to make it so that no one could dare say they would never bite on that.
Well the Rockies would be stupid to turn down your offer it’s just so one sided in thier favor.
Not the way to come up with deals OR improve your team.
I just don’t get wh6y you guys always take the EASY way out and trade your best MLB players for marginal improvement somewhere else never ONCE taking into consideration what your losing to get it.
They need a lot of things over there not JUST pitching….
Helton is 38 and not getting any younger, Trade them Duda for young and throw in Mejia or Familia (or Both!) or maybe one of those A or AA pitchers that are going to have a tough time breaking into the 2014,15 rotation.
And lets be honest here, trading for a .260 hitter? Why because he has double digit HRs in a launchpad?
I guess where we part ways is
“marginal improvement in other areas.” That Fowler, Cuddyer are not marginal improvements over Torres/Kirk and Nobody (assuming Duda goes to LF as planned)
Can you find me a CF+RF via trade that is better?
You have to give something to get something. So lets say Niese is the piece they have to deal because they lock up Wright and Dickey is a tough sell based on age/contract/repertoire
So where would you send Niese and for what?
We can sit here all day and argue hypothetical trades. I think you severely undervalue Fowler especially, so tell me who is fair value for Niese?
Do they improve the OF to the point that the loss of Niese and Gee doesn’t matter?
I sure don’t think they improve the team as much as you think they do, not when you lose two rotation guys for a player who is a .260 hitter and will have only marginal power in Citifield, and some 27 year old kid “slap singles hitter” who hasn’t played a full season in 4 years of MLB service.
Your giving up two big productive rotation guys for a .260 hitter and a part time player….
All in an effort to improve the OF the GM you love so much WRECKED with his cheapness and now you want to correct it by getting rid of GOOD players AGAIN!
When he got he we needed:
Power RHB OFer
Second Baseman
Catcher
Bullpen
Two years later what do we need?
Power RHB Ofer
Catcher
CFer
RFer
Bullpen
The list is getting longer and if we make this deal all you will accomplish is adding SP to the list in a year or so. (if not sooner)
Add to it the fact we will be adding 3B to the list with our 100Mil lifetime offer and when does the improvement you kept promising us actually start?
Defense to a team is like a good diet…
no matter how much u work out…u cant out-work out a bad diet…
the same goes for defense…the mets have to think pitching first, defense second, then offense..
pitching and defensive principles are hammered in the minor leagues…there has to be a consistent philosophy up and down the org with regards to PITCHING and DEFENSE….
the most important positions to fill are SP, CF, SS, 1B and Catcher…RF, LF, 3B, dont have the domino effect that those other positions have.
Right now, the ONLY good 2 way position players we have are tejada and ike…
If you get a TOP SS…u can move Tejada to 2B….now u have improved at 2 positions…
Murphy we can debate on whether u can move him to 3B or punt on him and move Flores up…
At this point, if u can trade Wright + Dickey…and get a top SS/C in those deals…u have to do it….those guys are great guys…but we are not winning any time soon and would just be wasting their chance at a ring…
We need….SS…CF…C…
Thanks for reading and writing, I appreciate it
Would you agree that better defense can improve your pitching? If you have average pitching but good defense is that better than good pitching and average defense?
The premise of my piece was under the understanding that Wright will be signed. In the NL I agree with you, defense in the infield plus CF are very valuable. Right now, the Mets are weak at 3 of those spots (CF, 2B and C).
So my goal was to improve 2 of them at the cost of 1 strength.
Right…well…in this case…i think that u can possibly trade Wright….and aim for an improvement at either C, CF, SS….in particular if u aim at SS, u move Tejada to 2B and improve defensively in 2 areas for the price of 1…
this is why I think if u can convince the Orioles to take on a hometown product ( David Wright lived maybe 30 miles away from Baltimore and Cal Ripken was his favorite player )…
if u can convince them to take on David Wright…in exchange for either their C…their CF…or Manny Machado….u do it in heartbeat…
David Wright in Camden Yards >>>>> David Wright in Citifield…
plus David Wright can be a DH and/or 1B when his range drops off even further…
Boston would be an intriguing option if they wanted to trade Middlebrooks but I think Boston is in cost-cutting mode the same way we are…I dont see them adding on any long term contracts for a while
While I agree that they would be a good team to try to acquire an outfielder from, the trade you suggested is insane. It is a HUGE overpay on our part. Cuddyer has a terrible contract (do we really need more of those?) and Eric Young Jr. hasn’t proven he can be a solid everyday player over the course of a full season yet. Yet you want to give up TWO of our young, cost-controlled starting pitchers, as well as our above-average starting second baseman? No, just no.
hey Superhero, thanks for reading and writing.
I actually don’t think Cuddy’s contract is all that bad to be honest. I do think Jason Bay has scared some of us from paying anybody, but giving him $10m for 2 seasons isn’t terrible. If it was 4 years I’d agree with you. But he still have value today in a lineup and surrounded by guys like Ike, Wright, Duda – he could be a lot more dangerous than he was in Colorado
I still believe people value Gee way more than I do. He’s a tough guy but a) you have no idea how he will rebound and b) he’s a 4/5 starter at best.
So you like Fowler though right? So if the Rox say “he’s available,” what are you offering them that is fair value?
A) It’s a bad enough contract that the Rockies would love to get rid of it if they could. That, his age, and the fact that he had an unremarkable year in Coors Field make him entirely undesirable.
B) Sure, Gee’s just a 4/5 starter, but he’s a solid and cost-efficient 4/5 starter, and it’s not like those just grow on trees. And the injury is not supposed to have any long-term physical impact on him; the only thing that he might struggle with is not having pitched in so long, but he’d get over that before too long.
C) For Fowler, I think Mejia would be a good starting point in discussions. His ability to generate groundballs should make him pretty desirable to the Rockies, considering their ballpark. You’d obviously have to give up more, but it’s a start. And I’m not against pursuing a trade for Eric Young Jr. either, who you could get for less. But giving up someone as valuable as Niese or even Gee for him is completely foolish.
Jessep,
I am not sure the Mets would take Cuddyer due to money (10MM). I think they are going after young affordable players. So, I read where Angels might even let Trumbo go in right deal. Niese OR Gee and prospect for Trumbo.
Gee for Frazier (Cinci)
Duda for Dyson (KC)
Trumbo is very interesting and I could see the Mets working out a deal with LA for Wright if they can’t sign him.
How about Texas? They have Kinsler and Andrus locked up for years and what about Profar? Texas also needs pitching. Who doesnt? Dickey for Profar+???. Move Tejada to 2nd and Profar at SS. Now you can either have Murphy as nice benchplayer or shift him to 3rd and trade Wright for OF help.
Texas wasn’t going to trade Profar for Greinke, or for anyone for that matter. You think they’ll trade him plus others for Dickey?
I think you’d have better luck with Andrus and frankly, I think Niese again is the guy you’d have to trade. I think people severely over estimate Dickey’s value. He’s such a rare case
I think people are overestimating Wright’s value, too. Neither of those guys, a year before FA, are bringing a lot back in return. Certainly not All Star caliber major leaguers. Maybe you can get one team’s top prospect and a few fillers. Maybe.
I don’t mind talk and will you/won’t you. I like it and think it’s fun, but I think what’s most often neglected in these types of conversations are the other team. Most often, people approach these conversations as if other teams are lining up to help the Mets. That’s not the case.
This isn’t directed at you and your post, it’s just a general statement about the topic.
I agree that’s why I’m offering up Niese – not because I think he’s gotta go, but because he’s the value the Mets have.
The only way Wright is of any value is if he agrees to sign with the new team prior to the trade being done. I’d be floored if he did that – because unless it was a team like ATL, it wouldn’t make sense for him to not test the market if he is traded.
I think we as fans want to win every trade now, tomorrow and the next day. Sometimes it don’t work like that. With Harvey, Wheeler, Dickey, and the rest of the young pitchers – would I rather have a good young CF or Niese? I’d rather have the CF because I don’t see how they can drastically improve that spot without giving something of value up. I value Fowler maybe more than most here.
You can’t say you need big upgrades at CF, RF, C, CL and then also say “we won’t give Jon Niese under any circumstances.”
I said the same thing a week or so ago to all the “real” baseball fans who bash Sandy for not making any “creative” trades, but lose their minds when anyone suggests trading Niese or Ike or Harvey. Those are the only legit trade chips the Mets have. If you take them off the block, there’s nothing to work with.
Agreed. We think everybody loves our players. The guys teams would want realistically are Ike, Harvey, Niese, a signed Wright and MAYBE Duda/Tejada/Murphy but to a lesser degree.
If your goal is getting “now” players then you have to look at dealing Ike/Harvey/Niese and of the 3, I’d prefer to deal Niese.
Niese would get the most in return. He’s already signed to a very team-friendly deal and has the makings of a front of the rotation starter. I’m not for or against trading anyone. I’m for making the best moves that help the organization. If it’s trading Niese, fine. If it’s re-signing Wright because the trade market isn’t there, fine.
We agree.
If Niese is the most valuable trade asset then it makes sense to get MLB talent for him right? You’re not looking at dealing Niese to get younger… so if Fowler/Cuddyer/EY Jr don’t fit your criteria, what would you look for in exchange for Niese?
The only thing I don’t like about your proposal is trading the #2 and not getting any pitcher back at all. If those guys are the centerpiece, fine. But who will replace Niese? Not necessarily right away, it could be a prospect. But I’d like not to decrease my headcount of pitchers.
I’m not sure you’d get a young solid pitcher back for Niese if there were other parts of the deal that were attractive to the Mets. It’d be a rob peter to pay paul for the other team no? Why give the Mets “now” value PLUS a young arm for Niese? Why not just keep your young arm and hope he turns into Niese in 2 years?
What did the A’s get back for trading Gio who at the time had at best a 15-9 and 16-12 record
And why wouldn’t a pitcher who is a year younger locked up long term and recently had a 13-9 record after an 11-11 record who lost a ton of good decisions to his pen both those years not get even HALF what Gio got?
Really it seems you think wearing a Met Uni devalues to you just for the wearing!
“We think everybody loves our players”
No the issue is yu think everyone hates our Minors as much as you do!
You think they aren’t good for whatever reason and there fore NO ONE WANTS ANYONE but our MLB performers.
The few guys you DO like you don’t want to trade regardless of the fact they don’t play a position we need and would prefer to play them out of position instead.
Flores to the OF or lets Trade Wright to make room for him…
You think no one wants Duda yet there was a whole conversation during the last games of the season about how many teams were scared to death of Duda and what he could do.
Why isn’t he tradeable for something?
Your issues are al about YOUR LACK of percieved value for our fringe players not the rest of the leagues lack of ewanting them.
So you choose the best of the roster best, creame of the crop because WHO could refuse such an offer and what you ask for pack is squat!
The issue is YOU UNDERVALUE what we have not that other teams do.
Which is how you talked yourself into thinking this was a good deal.
I bet if you traded Wheeler and Nimmo for a back up DH, they’d be fine with it.
Of course. The rules always change with them.
Dont be a dooshbag Donal. Start another flame war. The unholy trinity are in rare form. Who is starting this war, cause I guarantee I’ll finish it. So I suggest you end your circle jerk.
You have something to add about the baseball topic, or are you just going to call names, make threats and immediately blame others for it?
You want us to not talk about you, but it’s okay for you three to do it. I prefer not to comment on this guy’s posts. But i had to let you know we are not blind to what you and Donal’s intent was with your remarks. My reply to put it simply was, when one of us explodes remember how it started. And never forget that what you start, I will finish. That’s how it’s always been.
Does Danal?
I think you have me mixed up with someone who cares what you say. I could care less who you talk about or what you say. My remarks were explicit, so kudos to you for cracking the code. They were also 100% correct. If you feel the need to “explode” because the double standard you hold when it comes to baseball (and we’re talking about baseball here, right?) has been pointed out in the same public forum in which you perpetrate them, then that says far more about you than it does anyone else. If you want to talk about what the Rockies and Mets have to trade, that’s fantastic. Take your threats elsewhere. They’re worthless to me.
“you started”
So very mature. And who starts when yo uand your buddies go on and on for hours i nthe shoutbox?
I don’t understand why you have to include Murphy and Gee. You would just be creating another hole since your giving up 2 of your 5 starters.
I think Niese for Fowler straight up is debatable( But I still wouldn’t do it though).
Also, you are way overvaluing EY Jr. He’s not that good. He’s a .217 hitter away from Coors and never started a full season in the majors.
hey Vinny, thanks for the read.
I’m including them mostly because I truly feel their value is not that high. When it was reported Murphy may be dealt for Luke Gregerson, that set an alarm off to me that people don’t like Murphy.
For me personally, I’m down on Gee because I think he is an average pitcher who has some real good outings but might not be the same guy when he returns.
EY Jr did hit above .300 away from Coors this year, to be honest – I think the Mets liked EY last winter and I think he and a kid like Valdespin could be a 2B combo if this deal occurred.
Let me ask you this then: If you were told, go get the best value for Jon Niese. What are you trying to get? Realistically now….
I wouldn’t be afraid to include Gee in any deal (I already addressed the issue with the number of pitchers), but as a player, back-end starters are a dime a dozen. I wouldn’t nix a deal because of Dillon Gee.
That’s not what I meant. I meant trading both Niese AND Gee in the same deal without getting any pitchers back. I think that makes no sense at all.
Jessep, I think being down on Murphy because of a trade rumor is ridiculous. Do we even know if the rumor was even true? Also, maybe the Padres just low-balled the Mets? You don’t know if that’s his real value.
However, I don’t think Murph is the future at 2nd, but I’m not going to give him away for nothing though.
I understand what you’re saying and agree with it as far as not getting replacements for the pitchers, but does it matter if those pitchers are ready to start now? Think of it this way. Let’s assume the Rockies offer legit pitching prospects. Maybe not top-10 guys, but guys who project to be no worse than Gee. So for the sake of this argument, the Mets are losing 2/5ths of their rotation and not immediately filling it with Rockies players. Would you rather have Niese, Gee, Kirk and Duda or Fowler, Cuddyer, maybe Chris Young and Mejia? And remember, McHugh and Wheeler could be ready by June or July. Not to mention whatever prospects are returned. Maybe they’re also ready by June or July.
I don’t know if Fowler and Cuddyer are the right guys to make this trade happen. Point is, I think there could be a scenario where trading Niese and Gee and not immediately getting back pitchers who can immediately contribute does make sense. Other teams might have those players. Maybe Upton and Parra from AZ. I’m just throwing names out there.
Sorry, but I think there are much better ways to improve our outfield than to trade 40% of our starting rotation.
it’s a foolish move. You don’t have to trade 40% of your rotation to improve your OF. It’s not necessary.
Why make your rotation an uncertainity when it doesn’t have to be? If we trade Niese, there are other players we can trade for(or sign) without giving up Gee.
You’re probably right, but I think you put your team at a distinct disadvantage if you shut yourself off to a certain trade possibility. No one wants to just dump these guys, but if you want top-shelf talent back, you have to deal your own top-shelf talent, or take on salary.
Jon Niese, Justin Turner, Dillon Gee,and Daniel Murphy for Michael Cuddyer, Dexter Fowler, and Eric Young Jr ? That’s an absolutely ridiculous deal for the Mets. If they can’t get Fowler, EY Jr. AND a bullpen arm or catcher just for Niese and Turner, there’s no way I would consider Niese to the Rockies. Plus Cuddyer makes too much for the Mets to pay a player whose best position is probably DH.
I think the idea of a Mets-Colorado deal is farfetched, anyway because in order to get back the maximum for Niese, you have to deal him to a contending team that can part with multiple pieces to fill a need for a young lefthanded starter, such as Cincinnati. I’d say Niese for LeCure, Mesoraco, and Heisey might be viable although I’d discuss Mike Leake and Billy Hamilton, too. Probably any 3 of those for Niese would be worth considering. Obviously, this assumes the Reds want Niese as much as they wanted Latos a year ago because I can’t see the Mets letting him go for much less…
Not bad at all, but as long as you have sandy and the wilpons at the helm, not happening, cus those guys don’t have a set of balls to pull that trade off.
fair enough Iarman! Thanks for reading and commenting!
Fowler if I am correct hit. 300 for the 1st time in 2012 so unless he can put up similar #’s to Pagan then no, ut his fielding is GG quality.
I would not trade Nielsen unless Tull or Gonzalez included.
LH pitching in NL East is a must w/Freeman, Harper, McCann, Heyward, Bourn, etc.
LH pitchers w/Niese makeup AND contract are a bit rare.
Fair point regarding the NL east sarge, thanks.
I think trading Niese for huge contracts is not really what the Mets need to do. If they ever dealt Niese, I’d hope they just fill multiple weaknesses not just hope 1 player can carry the load.
CarGo to me is Coors Field. His home/road splits are drastic and Tulo isn’t going anywhere
I think you are still missing the fact that we would have NO LH starter. Even now we got like two LH in the organization I think, LOL.
No TRS, I get that. But we also have no CF, RF, C. I totally get the value of a lefty starter – but you can’t tell me its impossible to be competitive without one. The Reds finished with the 2nd most wins in MLB and have a 5 man rotation made up of all righties.
The Cardinals only LH starter was Jaime Garcia who pitched 4 times from June-August.
If Niese can net you something of value to help fill weaknesses than you can’t be afraid to do it solely because he’s a lefty. I understand the value of a lefty starter, but I also understand having AAA players in CF, RF, C are on the field more than the 30 games a lefty starter may pitch.
Those guys don’t play in the NL East. If you trade Niese it also has to net a pitcher in return as well as an impact player. Not guys like Fowler and Cuddyer. Heck the Rockies most likely would give away Cuddyer.
So then you’re not trading Niese for anything unless you get a lefty starter back? If the question was would you rather have Kirk/Hairston/Thole/Murphy together with Niese or would you rather upgrade 2 or 3 of those spots and not have a lefty (assuming you don’t trust Johan)?
I’m not trying to get rid of Niese, I’m trying to use his talents to fill several other weaknesses. The weakness of no lefty starter is not more important than no CF, C, RF to me. You can go pick up a lefty starter if you need one. Guys like Paul Maholm are not impossible to get
“If the question was would you rather have Kirk/Hairston/Thole/Murphy together with Niese…”
WRONG QUESTION!
The question should be does it really take (or worth doing) screwing up your rotation for marginal improvment of guys it really shouldn’t be all that hard to find upgrades for?
You could make the upgrades you claim your going to get for as little as 10 Million dollars and retain one of your best Rotation arms!
You have not suggested getting cream prospects back for Niese.
You don’t need to trade away a Niese to improve those positions. Pagan was a move like this and how well did that go towards filling holes?
In the end you will lose much more than you gained and what you gained you could have gotten WITHOUT the loss by just going for each player on an individual tade for Minor leaguers we already have you feel are not capable of filling the holes in the first place.
Get the same improvement your willing to settle for without costing you the hardest thing in baseball to find, Reliable and potential Ace type starting pitching.
I don’t want to give up Niese no matter what the cost. This guy is just getting into his prime and is coming off of a 13 win campaign. I like Fowler, but is he really worth a guy like Murphy? I think not, Murphy is going to be a cornerstone of the infield for years to come. The trade is interesting, but the Mets just give up too much talent.
PA Met Fan: Thanks for reading & commenting!
” I like Fowler, but is he really worth a guy like Murphy? I think not, Murphy is going to be a cornerstone of the infield for years to come”
Wow, you think way more highly of Murph than I do and I love the guy. I think calling Daniel Murphy a cornerstone of the infield is a huge compliment. I’d rather have a good CF than Murphy @ 2B though to be honest.