23
2012
Morning Grind: Unsure About Andres Torres? Really?
An article by 
I wanted to comment on yesterday’ report by Mike Puma of the New York Post, who pretty much said a Mets source told him that the front office was unsure about non-tendering Andres Torres.
Let me dispense with all the pleasantries and simply say that Andres Torres was a colossal failure in 2012.
We were sold a bill of goods that not only would Torres be a suitable replacement for Angel Pagan in centerfield, but defensively he was going to be an upgrade.
Both Terry Collins and Sandy Alderson anointed him as the leadoff hitter as soon as the trade was announced. Mind you, from the Giants point of view, he was about to be cut and non-tendered, but he ended up getting tossed in the deal at Alderson’s request.
As it turned out Angel Pagan not only had a great season for the Giants, but ended up being the missing piece to their World Series quest. Good for him. The Giants will either re-sign him to a multi year deal, or they’ll make him a qualifying offer and get a first round pick for him. Either way, Pagan will cash in and deservedly so, and the Giants walk away as the huge winners in that fiasco…
Let me sidetrack a little more…
Remember when Alderson went on WFAN and promised ”wholesale changes”? He made it sound like the entire team would be turned over and that nobody was safe. Who was the one that posted 15 minutes later and called “bullshit” on that claim? That would be me. While most Mets fans salivated at his every word and became mesmerized by that claim, all the signs still point to the fact that “wholesale changes” are very unlikely.
There will no significant additions to the team via free agency. Alderson said, “I don’t expect to make any major acquisitions via the free agent market”. That much is clear.
He also said, “There will be more substantial changes [at catcher and in the outfield] than subtle changes.”
That’s the point where the interview became laughable for me.
A week later he was singing the praises of Lucas Duda as one of the teams “most valuable pieces to our future”, and then reiterated “I can assure you we have no plans to cut Jason Bay and he will report to spring training with the rest of his teammates”.
And now, we hear that they are still unsure of whether they should bring back Andres Torres?
Does anybody in the front office have any idea or clue as to what they are doing?
Here’s the wholesale changes I predicted in the outfield…
Their top producing outfielder, Scott Hairston, will be gone with no compensation. None. Teams were hot for him at the trade deadline, but they hung on to him and now they’ll simply watch him walk out the door. Pretty sure either the Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox will be where he ultimately ends up.
That’s it. That’s your wholesale changes.
Jason Bay will be back, you can bet on it. He’s not an immovable contract, but with this front office he certainly is. They are seriously challenged when it comes to the creativity needed to pull off such a deal. Creativity is the first thing to go when you only have a methodical approach to everything. All issues are over-analyzed. Negotiations drag on until the other team gets tired and hangs up.
Lucas Duda will be back too. Even those who thought Alderson gloated about him as a way to make him more desirable to other teams, are not that brainless to believe that he has any value at all to any team. His value is less than zero. The minor leagues are full of players like Lucas Duda.
Plus, if any of the other 29 teams are looking for an outfielder, the last place they’d look to is the New York Mets who had the least productive outfield in two decades of major league baseball. Duda is our problem and nobody else’s. He’s also our platoon left fielder in 2013 along with Jason Bay.
It’s obvious that Kirk Nieuwenhuis will man either center field or right field everyday next season. Nobody disputes that. His 175 strikeouts will be a permanent fixture somewhere in the middle of the order too, as a replacement for Hairston.
That brings us back to Andres Torres…
Can you imagine bringing back Torres for $3 million dollars?
Someone needs to get that on AMC’s Fear Fest.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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Joe, i like your enthusiasm, but you’re 2 years too late.. From day one we all knew how phony and a liar this guy was, so while he was blowing smokes and the SA apologists were buying his crap while building him his bronze statue we all knew what this man was here for, cut payroll and get out. Nothing more nothing less. reason why there’s so many heated debates around MMO about the guy is because most of those apologist did not believe the guy was here to cut payroll but to build a sustainable winner without having to spend like minaya and others did because he was someone who can find undervalue players alll over USA. Fast forward to now after 2 years of ineptitude and all kinds of bad acquisitions, those same apologists of his are looking for all kinds of excuses to not blame the man.. From he had a good day to the bullpen wasn’t as bad as it seems, to blame the wilpons, there’s a plethora of people who still don’t wanna point the finger at this arrogant POS of a GM we have. It’s a shame because as a couple of people here say, we root for the name in the front of the jersey, funny this guy doesn’t even wear one and he gets all kinds of pass and treatment as if we won 2 WS in back to back years. for as long as he’s here, we’d be a small market like franchise and the losing season will continue because no player in their right mind would wanna play for this sorry ass franchise and its pathetic owners and FO executives..
HI Joe,
To the point as always.
I brought up to somebody I know the point raised by you and others of who is going to deal with Sandy when he demands a top-five prospect for the likes of Hairston. That individual responded that the prospects Sandy was offered were not worth it. I asked for specific names and she could not give me any. So I said she was making assumptions and addressing them as facts.
That I think is the problem – either not enough vetting on the part of those looking to explain Sandy’s moves or simply ignoring the realities of the fiscal situation that puts making the team competitive in the short or long term a secondary priority.
If Torres ends up coming back, I’ll agree with pretty much everything you said. Having said that, shouldn’t we at least wait and see what happens in the offseason before declarding Alderson a liar and a villain? Innocent until proven guilty, and all that?
Too early to freak out, although I’m getting quite pensive about how the SA is going to handle this off-season. I was privately hoping that the Mets were waiting until the conclusion of the NLCS to announce new contracts for DW & RA…. No Dice!
The only scenario where Torres would make sense is if SA traded, say, Murphy for Toronto’s OF prospect Jake Marisnick, and/or Valdespin & Mejia for San Fran’s OF prospect Gary Brown. Under that scenario, you might want to keep Torres as a 5th outfielder because of his experience, in the absence of a better option.
Think we need to be a little patient, although Joe D’s arguments are right on point. I agree that there’s a legitimate basis for concern.
We have a snakeoil salesman running the team and that isn’t even what bothers me most.
What does is how many people are so intent on giving testimonials on his behalf!
Yes people like me. If Toress comes back it is NOT rebuilding. If DW is signed for 20 M for six years it is not rebuiling. It is appeasing the fan base. The clock is running NOW, not two years ago. The doctor Alterson got the Wilpons thru ER now comes the rebuilding or recovery period. I will be down on SA as you are if Toress is back. Let’s see what happens. I suggest either Murphy be traded for a young OF prospect who can at least compete in ST for the job or that Spin gets the CF job by default. Kirk has to show he is ML ready in ST so their will be competition. The snake oil man has you say: I can’t see any Met fan including what you perseive as SA supporters being pleased with Toress coming back.
No way in hell could Murph bring back that kind of player.
I said a prospect who can compete to make the club and possibly win starting CF for Murphy. You make it sound like I said an all star CF.
Toronto Blue Jays have a surplus of catchers and OF’er. They are the perfect team for us to deal with. With Boston out and Yankees aging they may be interested in players such as Gee and Murphy. Please do not give me No Way They Do That because Murphy and Gee are still young and productive to the extent of being players who can compete. I would look for Travis d”Arnold C. Down in the minors is Jake Marisnick a CF with who by 2014 may be ready to take over in CF for us. That is what I call rebuilding.
Murphy doesn’t have enough value to bring back any prospect of significance. That’s a fact. The Padres offered a reliever for him; that tells you how other teams view him. Not sure why you’re suddenly bringing Gee into this.
Two established competive ML young players for two prospects. Give me a break.
As I said Toronto has depth in catching and Ofer’s.
See acquisition of Bobby Wilson from wavier by Angelsto asdd to their depth of cathchers for a possible trade.
I concede Travis D’ Arnold is a top catching prospect but as I said the Jays proved they can compete in tough AL East. If it will take more than Murphy and Gee then as a last resort I would consider trading Wright to them. But then I would want them to inculde their young 3B Bret Lawrie. Again DW for D’Arnold, Marisnick and Lawrie.
Lol, you aren’t very good at these are you?
You got some explaining to do, sir. Lets step outside and settle this
Hey we all Have strengths and weaknesses, unfortunately trade proposals are you weakness
Well TRS say what you will but he’s better at it that you are who never proposes a thing and simply questions deals others came out with….
Toronto would be a match for Dickey. They need front line type starters. They aren’t trading for Wright. They have Lawrie. And Bautista, in a pinch!
Superhero: I owe you an apology with my “Give me a break remark. I see you were right. Thanks for your input. Why were you right.
What I was asking was comparable to a team asking for Harvey and Wheeler and NImmo for two 1.5 players on a scale of 1 lowest to 5 highest. It is a case where prospects are worth more than jouneymen players who happen to be relatively young or in prime. Thankyou.
Agree 100%, although obtaining d’Arnaud would exact a very heavy price. Toronto is a prime trading partner.
Tommy2Cat and TRS:
Tommy2Cat my reply button to TRS is not working:
This is meant for both of you.
Tommy2Cat: Is m proposal fair or not enough. On metrsblog someone said the Jays would do the deal it for Wright but not include Brett Lawrie. Another blogger had in mind d” Armud and Jeff Marisnick for Dickey. Which if any of those deals would you do or eitherone.
TRS: I like to have dialogue. Why is my deal so out of line in your opinion, please explain in more detail.
Way short… It would take wright plus tejada plus fulmer to get all that
Even that is way too light. They don’t need Wright and it is pointless to trade a young Lawrie for him.
Hot where do I begin?
You are asking them to trade three under control guys, two of which are considered to young players for a rental switching leagues. Why on Earth would they do that? They would not trade Lawrie by himself for Wright. It Just isn’t a fit. A blue Jay’s guy came on the other day and seconded What most of us said, think arm and a leg for their stud catcher. Multiple to pitching prospects.
Dickey just for Marisnick and JP Arencibk is that oable TRS.
Dickey for the Jc guy sounds fair, after talking to that Jays fan it appears the Jays are really torn which catcher to keep. The think the kid in the minors is special but love the other guys clubhouse leadership and game calling. If nothing else though can they get some catchers that we can spell?
With the way you promote them, AMC should be sponsoring our radio show.
LOL, yes they should. I’m even an addict of Kevin Smith’s Comic Book Men on top of all their regular programming.
You got that right. I’ve been a huge Kevin Smith mark for years. That show is a nerd’s dream. I popped by the Stash one day earlier this year and bought a few things. Mike and Ming were working that day and I felt so envious because they do what they get to do.
And with the Walking Dead back on with new episodes it’s kind of like the Met season is still going! LOL
BTW AMC and Dish came to agreement on a carriage deal.
Come on, Joe. You know there’s no way to move Bay’s salary. When has any team ever unloaded that kind of money tied to a player with zero productivity?
Gary Matthews Jr.!!!!
The Angels paid over 90% of the salary. They didn’t move it, they just paid him to play for the Mets.
Considering they got the Mets to pick up any of his salary is amazing. If only the Mets could do the same with Bay.
I just don’t think anyone wants Bay. I think if the Mets just cut him, some team will probably drop a half mil, league minimum chance on him. But why would some teams take him, if only for a mil or two when guys like Hairston, for example, can hit 20 HRs in a part-time role and cost the same million?
If enough teams are confident in their advanced scouts to find the next “Hairston,” the market for paying Bay to play elsewhere shrinks.
So anyway yesterday you said Mike Piazza would never have been traded for if it wasn’t for Omar Minaya being in Steve Phillip’s ear.
your quote:
“….and what really put them over the top was Piazza, who Phillips wouldn’t even have sniffed if it wasn’t for Minaya telling him how to make the trade work”
In case you missed it I posted a query asking anybody to find any “evidence” that Omar Minaya was involved in the Mike Piazza trade because this was the very first time i had ever heard of such a thing. I looked on the web and found nothing so i asked out here and nobody responded so I’ll ask you again – where did you hear that Omar Minaya was the one advising Steve Phillips on how to trade for Mike Piazza? Please post your info supporting that claim.
If you are such a fan of Phillips and Francesa, you wouldn’t have to ask other people to do your homework for you.
in other words you don’t have a response. You made it up. You lied – again.
It’s not incumbent upon me to look it up although i DID look for it yesterday and could not find anything so that’s why i’m asking for ANYBODY in the world of MMO to please find a link supporting your claim of Omar Minaya advising Steve Phillips in the Mike Piazza trade.
Is it true or not and if so where is the evidence or article that states it? I looked and can’t find it. I am asking for anybody to help out, even Joe D.
If not, than you clearly and intentionally LIED to me and the readers.
It’s not incumbent on me to hold your hand. I told you where I heard it. From Phillips himself on Mike’s show. It was discussed here on this site. The fact that you can’t handle not knowing something does not make the person smarter than you a liar.
Than ask Joe D to find where it was spoken about on this site. Your “hearsay” is not good enough and not to be trusted.
Ask Joe D to find it on this site or go to the archives on or about this alleged TV interview happened and find it and post it out here. I get a kick out of how this clown is blaming me for asking him to support his claim.
You guys like evidence, not ghosts and goblins, so where is the evidence? Post it.
I’m sure Minaya did help Phillips make tha deal but there was not going to be a deal until Doubleday pushed them to make it from what I understood at the time.
People said the same thing about Burnett and the Yankees still found a trade partner and even got them to pony up a lot of money too!
Exactly. The salary can’t be unloaded. The Mets can trade Bay, but they’d have to pay his salary, or trade a young star along with him.
The Yankees didn’t pay the full boat on Burnett….
And they held out on getting more prospects if Pit wanted them to pay it all…
No offense Joe, but I think “While most Mets fans salivated at his every word and became mesmerized by that claim,…..’ is a gross over exaggeration.
I understand your dislike of all things this-current-NY-Mets-FO, but I don’t believe the average Met fan is a gullible as you make them out to be. I believe most of us realize that other than a Wright and/or Dickey trade, there isn’t much that will likely to be done in the way of trades b/c we don’t have much in the way of trade chips – either ML or MiL, right now. There are some but depth is still pretty slim and almost non existent for position players.
they have others, but the same people that complain they aren’t making moves would go ballistic if they traded Neise or Ike, because those are the guys that could likely bring real talent back.
and Bay is of course tradeable. as long as you throw in all of his contract, or someone like Neise. so IOW, the best bet for the Mets is to just release him in ST, eat the sunk cost, and not throw away another valuable player just to save money.
I dont think grouping people is the way to go, stick.
I’m against moving Ike Davis or Jon Niese, and I will go ballistic if they do. But I’m also the one who believes they WILL trade Ike Davis based on what I can glean and what I’ve heard.
I wouldn’t go ballistic if they trade Wright for an abundant package, but I WILL go ballistic if they sign him for a penny over $75 million and call “bullshit” on their whole idea that they are different than the past regime.
Like I said last month, Alderson has no plan, and they will sign Wright to a mega-deal and doing so will be evidence that the last two years were a sham and also that what I’ve said all along about this front office will be validated.
There was nothing that Alderson did in San Diego that should have ever made him a front-runner for any GM job. I said that on day one. He has no plan other than CRG and Selig thought he could do a better job of slashing payroll under the guise of a rebuild program. He had a image that would project well and would be pleasing to the masses.
There is no evidence of rebuilding. None. Any moves of consequence were more the result of unloading salary than they were to rebuild. The only think being rebuilt here is the Wilpon image, the Wilpon legacy, and the Wilpon stranglehold, and Alderson is the top henchman.
I said this before he got hired, after he got hired, and ever since. I also said I’d give him a year and a half to see if I was wrong about him, before unleashing how I felt and posting quotes/warnings I said in the past.
Now it’s time for the rest of you to catch up. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
well, when he came on board, you wrote a big piece praising him, so that part seems to be revisionist histroy.
and you seem to have just discredited what you said above, that Bay is movable if they felt like it, since you don’t support bundling him with someone that has actual value. Or however many benjamins it takes to cover his entire salary.
I wrote a welcome to New York piece yes, and I was sincere when I wished him luck. I also wanted to make sure I’d continue to get my credential which I had for two years with Minaya. As it turned out he went from two bloggers with access to 50. I should have waited a week before I wrote my welcome piece.
Oh and regarding Bay, I would bundle him. With David Wright! And I’d want one MLB ready OF or a young SP2 under team control for at least 4 years You can quote me on that.
We ALL wished him well when he got here….
We ALL had high hopes for him….
Then he started making moves that made us say WTF??!??!???!??!
And it was all downhill from there!
While we may have questioned his trading of K-Rod and Beltran at the time he never got crucified for them. It wasn’t until he refused to negotiate with reyes, Traded Pagan for two stiffs, Made no other moves to really improve the team that we started to say this guy is just not going to cut it.
And he might have gotten more time if some posters here didn’t go on a propaganda campaign to try and make all these questionable moves as GOOD DAYS and SMART GMing.
He was getting the time from many of us until that started. We questioned but didn’t harp.
It got ugly when some decided to sell this all as good stuff happening. And it got REAL ugly as a result.
We ALL wished him well when he got here….
We ALL had high hopes for him….
Who is ‘We ALL’?
I saw plenty of comments from Met fans that said from the get go he wasn’t their first choice as GM. I saw plenty of Met fans who were disappointed and not on board from the get go.
I saw many Met fans make mention that he was the shoe in all along, and the other interviews were just for show to comply with the process.
I wasn’t so sure on that day one. But it didn’t take long from the many articles that were published for me to realize the hand writing on the wall with that hiring. That’s why Omar was fired with 2 years to go on his contract. If it was just about slashing payroll and only slashing payroll, they would have kept Omar to do that and saved themselves a couple of million. There had to be more to it than that and I think it more or less came out in the first 6 months.
When I say we all I mean pretty much EVERYONE!
You have some who thought he wasn’t the best choice thats not the same as saying he was a bad choice who was destined to fail.
I’m sure there were one or two who believed that but they couldn’t criticize him for what he did until he did something!
Just about everyone said New Guy lets see what he has and then we saw and went OH NO!
While others jumped for joy and tried to sell it off as smart baseball.
Those same people said 2013 was going to be when things were rebuilt and turned around….
Now it’s all about 2014 and 2015 and by december I gurantee it will move to 2016!
Maybe here at MMO but from what I read there was not an overall consensus across the Mets blogshphere. Not in the comments sections anyway.
Well for everyone you can find that thought Sandy was a istake there were TWO who made him out to be the next Sliced bread!
And I don’t comment on other blogs because most of them are nothing more than Metric spouters who don’t even understand the metrics they are spouting!
I mean just look at that recent crap about Torres being the most patient batter in our lineup!
Hits like crap it’s the philosophy that matters not the result!
A problem many here suffer from as well!
Yes Metsie, do you remember his very first move? I cant remember Hu it was for. lol
LOL! Yes but the first headscratcher really was letting Takahashi go. The problem was he hadn’t hired his brain yet and was under time constraints which should have been the very first inidcator this guy doesn’t really know how to build a team he knows how to hire people to tell him what to do and will only ever be as good as those he hires to advice him.
When he had Rigney he did well, When he got Beane he did well but not as good, It’s been pretty much bust since then.
Because he keeps relying on the same guys who don’t get it done anywhere they have been.
First SA says Reyes as a rental would not bring back that much. Reyes got injured just before the trade deadline. Reyes was going for the teams first batting championship. SA in ST wantede to evsluate Reyes and the time to teade him when he proved he was healthy was then.
As much as Reyes’ value may have decreased due to his injury it still would have been more than what we got as compensation in the draft.
You would have gotten at least one Top Prospect for him just as we did for Beltran who was also abandoned and devalued due to injury risk.
I do agree though they screwed themselves by not trading Reyes before the deadline if thier intention was to not even make an offer at the end of the season.
They could have offerred a 100Mil contract (6 Mil savings) with the same parameters Miami got and he might have taken it. That would give them the opportunity to trade him later if they wanted to and get more than they got in compensation.
Maybe he doesn’t take it and leaves for more money…
Well then at least they could claim they tried!
They didn’t they coveted the comp picks more and what did they got for it?
Pawlicki?
Yet we are still looking to fix the C position?
I can be critical of SA for these non-moves and moves:
1. Not trading Reyes at ST once he proved healthy or not signing him which he never had the intention doing yes he was a snake oil man on that. The Wilpons Picard lawsuit was why they had no intention of signing Reyes with a good cheap replacement waiting in the wings. Yes they could have got top prospects as I now advocate doing with DW.
2. Not trading Hairston which will be offset if the do resign him which is improbable.
3. Playing Torres in CF once we were out of WC. He should have been DFA’d
4. FO bashing Ike he will remember that for sure.
THIS!
I have come to the conclusion that they don’t want to wake up Joe it’s too painful and they would prefer to just sleep through it all and hope by the time they wake up everything will be storybook good again or could at least be dismissed as a bad dream.
As for grouping players to trade well when your in our position thats exactly what you have to do.
Considering how people feel about the players we have here we have to stop looking for the ONE player who can bring back 2 or 3 players and start looking at the 2 or 3 players in our system that can fill one hole, Clear out space so there is no need to let half a draft class go for an excuse as lame as “There is no place to put them” and use whatever we have to get the players who can at least adequatly hold a position until such time as the kids that remain WITHIN can improve upon them.
THAT is how you rebuild, Not by trading off all your best players for lesser multiples.
You have to draw a line in any rebuild for what is going to be the foundation for the next few years. What are you going to build around?
While some think we are still far off and desperate for rebuilding when you look at the potential starting rotation and the pretty much set IF you have to wonder why we intend to get rid of a Wright or a Davis to fix and OF that was detroyed under the same philosophy of trading a good player for multiples in hopes you hit the lottery twice.
GMs aren’t stupid they are not going to give you twice what a player is worth and they won’t even give 1.5 times what you gave them.
Which makes the one for multiple deal in most cases a lateral move with the exception of now your production is tied up in TWO (of the limited) roster spots as opposed to the one where the other roster spot could be used to fix something else.
We should be looking to be on the Multiple side of the trade equation and not with MLB talent (although one MLB player in a deal is fine provided he isn’t really a solution/contributor for you), But with those kids who by themselves may not be enough to make a trade with and adding another player like him to the package.
Get that one kid who will fill your needs for two or three kids you have that do not.
Clear out the stock that does not work for you and get some that does in exchange and creates room for more kids to be signed that might turn into something we DO like or can be traded yet again for another solution.
While we may think guys like Duda and Havens are useless put them together in a package and they have some value….
Because as we see here there are people dumb enough to believe trading one good player for multiple scrubs is a good thing!
As Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute and sad to say in this case we have one running this team!
There is no way if the Mets sign Wright is going to be for as little as 75 MIL.
Fantasy.
Exactly, they will give him $100MM+ and it will validate that this front office is no different than the last one. And the contract will be worse than Beltran who was 28 and on the rise, while Wright will be 31 and on the decline.
Worse than Beltran? Are you implying that Beltran’s contract was bad? I’d do that again in a NY minute, injuries and all. Regarding Wright…remains to be seen.
‘Now it’s time for the rest of you to catch up. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.’
Talk about ‘grouping’.
There were plenty of us who knew from the get go that SA was part of the deal the Wilpons cut with Selig. Deal that included the #1 goal of saving the team for the Wilpons.
I’ve said it so much so, that many here are sick of me saying it.
So who are these ‘rest of you’ that you keep referring to? I can’t help but think the small minority that commented when he was hired about the ‘adult in the room’ are the ones you keep directing these type of comments to.
Understanding that reality going in is why some of us didn’t/don’t bother with the hate spewed daily for this FO. Where’s the same rhetoric for the Wilpons? Isn’t it their doings and machinations that have this team where it is – and this FO in place – to begin with?
Still thinking ‘some of you’ are shooting the messenger. So much so, that a handful have gone on record saying they’d be happy with the Mets totally tanking, if that got this FO out any sooner. Sad…
I highly doubt SA will be here any longer than his one and done contract. By then, the Wilpons should be firmly entrenched with their hands back in the cookie jar – or it all falls apart anyway despite Selig’s many favors and they sell the team. Me…I’m hoping when it’s just Jeff left, that’s exactly what he does.
if the FO obsessed get their wish as you note, forget the team ever getting better, because this will look like the good old days. More likely to see Jeffy just take back over, and have a complete gut job.
Yeah cause we all know Sandy’s way is the only way that works right?
Well it’s been quite awhile since 1989 why hasn’t it worked since then?
Actually, when I wrote that line I could still hear the words of two of my writers who spoke to me and emailed me all a-glee saying this was a Sandy Alderson they never saw before. They were excited and happier than can be. I think we were going to do an MMO Crossfire piece with one of them and me, but it never materialized. I think Matt over at Metsblog was one of those who were mesmerized and I did a reaction piece to his reaction, lol. (Sorry Matt). Unlike me, Matt’s opinions echo the majority of Mets fans. I’m the like kid who is locked up in the attic where my opinions on the team are concerned. ;-D
Joe, I posted a link a couple of times where you too were in support of Sandy and even yourself said that those expecting moneyball from Sandy were way off.
TRS I change my mind on a great variety of things. I’m a blogger. My passion is what drives me to the keyboard and always has. Sometimes I say things I’d love to take back, sometimes I wish I could have been more fiery. I’ve been skeptical of Alderson from day one, but kept my mouth closed if only to give him some time to see if I was wrong about him. He only furthered my skepticism and if you think I sound angry now, I’ll warn you that it will be much worse six months from now. This is just the beginning of a metamorphosis.
We all do Joe, you have every right to. However, I think, maybe I am misunderstanding, that you are implying that you knew it was a bad decision all along and he wasn’t the right man for the job.
I have said all along if after the 2013 off-season there hasn’t been a dramatic change then I too will hold the pitchfork. However, I have no problem with admitting that I supported Omar TOO long and held on until the last few months. I refuse to say I knew all along that Omar was the wrong guy for the job.
Again, maybe I am misunderstanding.
This was what I was referring to:
“Let me tell you the little I’ve learned about Alderson in the past month. We all know about his impressive run as the general manager of the Oakland A’s, and nobody can question his integrity and accomplishments during and after his Oakland days. I am extremely proud that Alderson, a former US Marine, will be running the Mets beginning today. Things are going to get better with Sandy now calling the shots.”
Now of course you may have and are certainly able to now think that he is a bumbling buffoon. However, you like many of us were very excited with his selection. I like you was not excited because he was supposed to do some moneyball magic. In fact he wasn’t even the guy moneyball was about. I just thought he was a guy who could get the overall mess from finances to minors to mlb back organized again. I always saw him as more of a new CEO.
Hmmm….so if Joe D. changed his mind about all things SA since he was hired, maybe some of the other Met fans did as well.
I think the more than came out AFTER his hiring – including the secret 25 MLB loan, the extension of the same, the 40 MIL bridge loan to get to investors, etc. – opened up many Met fans eyes.
If this truly were a rebuilding effort, that takes approximately 5 years anyway. So those that still believe have no problem being patient.
Joe, I disagree that the minors are full of players like Lucas Duda. As you know, like yourself, I am completely disgruntled with the current leadership of the Mets, but I am still hoping for at least one big multi-player trade that will bring a catcher and outfielder to the Mets. I think Duda in left or right field can produce 20 hrs, 70-80 rbi and a decent average. In a trade, I think he can bring back a decent major league pitcher or better defensive outfielder who can’t hit, but I think Duda is a keeper. I would assess the market for Dickey and Niese and if there’s a team out there willing to give up a package of major-league-ready players for either of them plus a throw-in non-prospect from the Mets, that’s the move I’d make. We shall see.
I understand and respect your opinion, but I just dont see Duda, now 27, as anything more than a part time designated hitter. He’s 27 and he is what he is. What we saw is what we’ll get.
I think Duda could be more than what we saw last year…I think with more experience and a solid approach he’ll be a very solid, but not great run producer…but I think he has much more value at 1st and not the OF. He’s too slow for the OF, but his play at first was decent enough.
I really think that he’d be a nice pick up for someone looking for a cheep and better than average production 1st basemen.
I am not so sure that he could ever produce better than average results at 1B. 1B is no slouch position.
If you want Encarnacion, Fielder or Pujols production then no, he doesn’t match up…but he could fit the Teixeira, Freeman or Reynolds type of production. Most of the average 1st basemen are good for 20-30 HRs and 80-100 RBI…that’s not a unfair expectation for Duda, especially in the right ballpark and right lineup.
You add the fact that he’s really cheep, it make him all the more attractive to a club that needs a little pop at first and doesn’t have a ton of money to spend.
In a 250 games, he’s hit 29HR’s 120RBI and batted .256. That’s including call ups and growing pains and 129 games at old CitiField with no protection around him. It’s not fantastic, but it’s not bad for a guy making less than 1/2 a mil.
At the plate, Duda does have the talent to be a very good hitter IMO. He’s a big strong guy with a quick bat, and a good eye. I was really shocked to see how poorly he hit last year.
I’m starting to wonder that if problems at the plate last year was mostly mental. I think he has admitted to having low self confidence in the past, and I heard that when he was sent down that he had a very poor adittude.
Just someting to think about, cause I think Duda has the ability to be a good hitter, as we all saw in 2011.
I think part of his problems were from his struggles in the field and the false expectations put on him.
I can’t remember who said it, but someone on SNY said that you don’t make power hitters and you should try to force power from them. The best approach is to just let them hit and the HR’s will come naturally. But you are just hurting a young player when you tell him that he should be a 20+ HR producer in his first year of playing.
I can tell you from experience (from someone who is still playing) , I’ve never tried to hit a HR and actually hit one. Every bomb I hit was when I was just looking for a good pitch to hit and to put a good swing on it. Every time I go up looking for a HR, I ended up swinging at bad pitches and chasing breaking balls and falling behind in the count. I either missed badly or hit the ball off the handle of an out.
‘I think part of his problems were from his struggles in the field…’
I agree with this 100%. Duda, as reported, had a confidence problem to begin with when he first came up. I can only assume that his poor play in RF was weighing on him and it was affecting his at bats as well.
Part of the issue was the fact he was behind Ike and Ike was struggling as well.
Add to it the fact that they had Ike for an entire PA to work on getting breaking balls over to LH Batter and were well in the LHB approach zone by the time he got up to the plate.
Because of the fact we were so LHB heavy in the lineup, most of our LHBs were at a disadvantage.
Duda will bounce back in my opinion the question (despite his down year) is not the bat it is whether the Bat is enough to excuse the glove in the OF, which is highly doubtful.
While putting him at 1B would seem to be the way to go Ike stops that from being an option and if one has to go I would rather see Duda go instead of Ike because Ike has the glove Duda will NEVER have!
hes 26.
If the source is correct about the front office debating about bringing back Torres or not, then I am at a loss. Even if the sole purpose of Alderson’s existence is to cut payroll, why even think about Torres at a minimum of a couple million through arbitration. Even 80% of his 2012 salary is an overpayment let alone a raise from it which is always possible in arbitration. Of all the decisions facing the FO, this one is a no brainer. Torres is not worth anything more than non-guaranteed invite to Spring Training.
Agree.
I don’t know why they bother…if the plan is not spend and build for 2014, then just do it.
I really wish SA just ripped the band-aid off when he got here instead of giving us this dbl message cr@p.
If you watched/listened to SA at the end of the season during his State of the Team address, you knew 90% of it was pure unadulterated BS. Go back to 2010 to the glowing articles about how he managed to have 10 players on the roster at or close to the league minimum. Then last year, Beltran traded, K-Rod traded, Reyes gets let go, all moves you understood as reducing payroll, but then you get the subtler moves. Moving Pagan to you get Torres/Ramirez back at the same salary, not resigning Capuano at $5MM for two years. Doing nothing about the catcher’s position. It’s all about keeping payroll at about $90 million, after telling everybody it would be at $100-$110 million. SA simply has zero credibility right now. Didn’t he leak to reporters that Wright and Dickey might be taken care of before the World Series? Maybe we’ll have big news tomorrow, but I wouldn’t hold your breath.
This was my experience regarding Sandy when first coming on board.
I heard he was the one who was the architect of the Oakland clubs so I thought he was a good general manager. When I saw him first interviewed on SNY and when asked about changing Citi Field he said Met hitters would instead have to learn how to hit home runs there. That was my first question mark?
When players were released and new ones signed, I could not believe it. But I was told by many that this is Alderson’s genuis – to look outside the box via money ball and saber metrics. At that point I was skeptical and started to wonder if we were trying to cut down costs as Sandy was saying 2011 was going to be a transition year and we would have more money to use in 2012 when contractual olbigations (not naming names but felt he meant Castillo, Perez and I sensed KRod and Beltran and was nervous about Reyes).
But I could not see anything in the reclamation projects and second rate players that he gathered. Some were telling me to just wait and see – Sandy had the inside track. I doubted it. As the season progressed, I knew it and was convinced the Wilpons were in much more financial trouble than being let on (which eventually became public, too).
I still had my doubts about money ball and putting a team together based on advanced computer statistical analysis but it wasn’t until this early spring that I did more vetting due to points raised by Metsie and it was then when I found out all about his lack of professional baseball background, the coming in “cold” bit, the connection of Bill Rigney, the relationship between Bud Selig and the Wilpons, the circumstances regarding Sandy being urged to take a job he wasn’t interested in, all his other work in baseball not involved in player personnel and concluded that out new general manager was indeed just a lawyer and business person coming in to kee the franchise financially afloat for the Wilpons.
At first I thought he was a baseball person but not a good one, despite the hype about him in Oakland and then I realized he was not a baseball person at all. All the pieces of the puzzle fit into place.
“We were sold a bill of goods that not only would Torres be a suitable replacement for Angel Pagan in centerfield, but defensively he was going to be an upgrade.”
No, we weren’t. It was generally accepted that he was keeping Kirk’s seat warm.
Hey, what did you say about Puma reporting that the Mets were going to have Wright and Dickey signed by the World Series? Why does this unsubstantiated rumor from an unnamed source have more weight? Does he swear on a Bible before using Twitter?
I was kind of wondering why Torres wasn’t cut last week when they dispensed with those other players they cut from the 40.
Torres Should never be allowed to put on Mets Uniform again. Unless he is being paid bare minimum and is a bench player. Duda, oh Duda, What are you? YOU’re not an outfielder, I would never trade Ike Davis to give you first base that would be the biggest error since a certain trade of Nolan Ryan.
Duda is a DH, he is a lumbering, moody bat off the bench with occasional power. Yes he is a a huge dude, this Duda but, he doesn’t square up on balls with enough regularity to be considered a true slugger. Go ahead Sandy trade Ike, for the easily mentally manipulated Duda and this is what you will get. 160 strike outs 15 to 20 HR’s and a 235 batting average. Ike now fully recovered and finally having a full recover season under his belt goes elsewhere and hits 280 with 35 hr’s and 110 rbi’s with 120 strike outs. & 100 walks. If he is surrounded by any other potent bats, lookout Ike hits 40 hr’s with an even better average and more rbi’s…
Duda, his the Mike Pelfrey of hitters. The potential is there but he is a head ase that needs constant monitoring. Yeah Ike’s got some fire to him..boo hoo. Sandy, what Marine did you ever know that didn’t have some fire to him?
I like Kirk, h has a history of catching up to the competition he faces at every level. Kirk ends up with 120k a 260 to 285 batting avergae 20 to 25 hr’s 15sb, 70rbi’s or more.. not bad for a CF.
Jayson Bay, sigh if this man had any kindness in his heart he would retire and do the franchise and fans a favor.. He has made enough money and should just go Big Foot hunting back home in the pacific northwest woods. He simply cannot not turn on the fastball anymore. This is a guy who was known as a high fastball hitter and a fastball hitter in general. His bat is slower than a Chris Young fastball in the 9th inning.
This thought just occurred to me. What Met will have a huge break out season next year?
DANIEL MURPHY! I am not a huge fan of Murph’s but, he is now acclimated to 2b and not too shabby. He is comfortable enough there that I have a feeling we will see 15 to 20 hrs and 65 to 70rbi from with a 305 avg.
You know who would be a great lead off man for the Mets Brett Gardner who may actually be available from the yankees. Time will tell.