18
2012
MMO Fan Shot: Revisiting the Scott Kazmir Trade
An article by 
I don’t remember much about the summer of 2004. I vaguely remember turning 21 that June, taking an ill-advised trip to Atlantic City, and realizing that all casinos are not created equal. (Apparently you have to win twice at the Taj Majal, once at the table, and once again in the parking garage, successfully making it to your car without getting stabbed).
AC trips aside, I spent the majority of my summer life-guarding at a small apartment complex in Jersey. If that sounds boring to you, it’s because it was. Wake up at noon, open pool at one. Rescue children whose parents were too irresponsible to watch them. Unsuccessfully hit on mediocre chicks. Listen to Mike and the Mad Dog.
If my summer was a reality show, it would have been cancelled after the first episode.
Absolutely nothing of note happened over those three months. Nothing I can remember anyway. Except for one day. July 30. The day we traded Scott Kazmir.
A little after 4:00 P.M. a somber Eddie Coleman came on WFAN to announce that the Mets had acquired Kris Benson AND Victor Zambrano. Mad Dog, working alone that day, then asked, “So what’d the Mets give up Eddie?” “Well, they gave up a lot Chris.”Before going to work that morning I read a blurb in the Star Ledger about how the Mets were interested in Victor Zambrano. But that the deal was unlikely because Zambrano was complaining of elbow soreness and the Devil Rays were asking for Scott Kazmir. This made me laugh. The Devil Rays were known for making ridiculous trade offers. No way. Not happening.
For the first ten minutes I talked myself into the deal. I knew a little bit about Zambrano, that he had a good K/9, but control issues. I also knew Benson was a former number one pick, and at one time a top pitching prospect. So I tried to get excited about the trade(s). Then Chris took his first caller.
“Honestly Chris, what’s the point of being a Mets fan?”
That’s when it sunk in. Despair. Then anger.
Wait, did we really just trade the Mets’ top pitching prospect for Victor Zambrano?
Here’s eight thoughts on the deal.
VALUE
Even if Scott Kazmir had blown out his arm, never pitched a day in the majors, and Zambrano won multiple CY Young awards, the trade still would have been a failure from a value standpoint. After the trade, Texas came out and said they would have considered trading Mark Teixeira in a Kazmir package. The Phillies mentioned that they would have parted with their slugging minor league first basemen, Ryan Howard, who was blocked behind Jim Thome at the time. Even if the reports were just heresay, there’s no denying the fact that on the day of the trade, July 30, 2004, Scott Kazmir was the top pitching prospect in baseball. A highly regarded, 20 year old lefty, with a high 90’s fastball and plus slider. He certainly could have brought back a lot more than a pitcher who was best known for leading the AL in walks, wild pitches, and hit batsmen. If Kazmir was worth a dollar, the Mets sold him for a nickel.
IMPULSE
When Texas came out and said they would have entertained trading Teixeira for Kazmir, there were two messages being sent. The previously mentioned point that Kazmir was worth a lot more than what the Mets got. And the second, and one that’s equally important, is that no one knew Kazmir was available. Which probably means that Kazmir wasn’t available, at least not until the Devil Rays asked for him. This is fine of course. The problem that occurs is, once the Mets internally decide that they are willing to trade him, they never stop and think, “Hey maybe we can get someone better than Victor Zambrano for Kazmir?” A month earlier, the front office viewed Kazmir as the teams future ace, and virtually untouchable. Then, after a better than expected record in July, they send him packing without even letting other teams know he was available? The trade reeks of an impulse buy. Like the time a 19 year old me spent two thousand dollars on a set of 18’ Lexani Rims, after putting a total of 15 minutes thought into the purchase.
Mom: “I thought you were saving that money to study abroad?”
Me: “Um……well…….Um……..Look how shiny they are!”
WHO’S IN CHARGE HERE?
Following the trade, rumors leaked that Jeff Wilpon, and not GM Jim Duquette, was in charge of roster decisions. Reports surfaced that Al Lieter hadn’t liked Kazmir, dating back to a spring training incident involving clubhouse music, and that Lieter and Tom Glavine were known to play golf with Jeff Wilpon. Were they an influence in trading Kazmir? And why was Rick Peterson, the teams pitching coach, allowed so much input regarding the trade? Did Peterson’s opinion trump Duquette’s? The question as to who was actually in charge became a big debate for the rest of the season. Only later would it be confirmed that the Mets had far too many voices making decisions about the roster. Or as Jim Duquette puts it in this 2006 New York Times article, “We had too many cooks in the kitchen, In that situation, if someone disagrees, he might not speak up. The loudest voices are the ones that get heard. It does become sort of like a mob mentality.”
INCOMPETENCE AND DISTRUST
Ever since the Kazmir trade there has been a distrust between fans and ownership. And rightfully so. Especially when you read articles like this. In the aftermath of the trade, a slew of rumors came out about the Mets and how they run their front office. Rumors the Mets denied. But as a fan, even the most optimistic, you couldn’t help but think that the people in charge of your favorite team were vastly incompetent. And to top it off, they were now lying about it. The whole thing came across like a bad corporate cover up. Even 8 years later, I still find myself doubting almost everything ownership says.
15 MINUTE RICK
Rick Peterson’s Met obituary is a short one. Six words to be exact. I’ll fix him in 15 minutes. When he retires from baseball, Peterson will be remembered for helping develop the big three of Mulder, Hudson, and Zito. Maybe people will also praise his many innovations in the study of pitching mechanics. But Met fans will most likely remember him for the influence he had in trading Kazmir for Zambrano. It’s not totally fair. The Mets could have said something like “Hey Rick, we’re gonna try to get Zambrano for you, but there’s no effing way we’re trading Kazmir for him.” Peterson never should have had the power to be so influential in the decision. But he was. And his arrogance, and subsequent failure to “fix” Zambrano, is what a lot of Mets fans will remember.
POOR VICTOR ZAMBRANO
I always felt kind of bad for Victor. It’s not like he was a free agent we gave big money to and didn’t perform (I’m looking at you, Jason Bay). I think he always knew who he was as a player. A fringe major league starter with control issues. It’s not like he told the Mets to make the deal. I can only imagine how the conversation went after the trade went through.
Rays Manager: Hey Vic, we just traded you to the Mets.
Zambrano: Oh… Did you get anything good back for me?
Rays Manager: Ha! Yeah we did… Scott Kazmir, only the best lefthanded pitching prospect in baseball! Don’t worry, no pressure Vic…
2007 COLLAPSE
Kazmir s big league career may have never lived up to the expectations we all had back in 2004. For one season however, it did. In 2007 he led the league in strikeouts and made the All-Star team. His final numbers: 206 IP, 3.48 ERA, 1.37 WHIP, 239 K’s. Do the Mets collapse in 2007 if Kazmir is pitching every 5th day? It’s a fair question to ask.
PEDRO, CARLOS, AND OMAR
After the 2003 season, Omar Minaya was offered the GM job to share with Jim Duquette. They would be co-general managers and have equal power. Minaya declined the offer. After the embarrassment of the Kazmir trade and another losing season, Wilpon offered Minaya the full time gig in the fall of 2004. Telling Omar, “ We’ve become totally irrelevant” (Don’t worry Fred, we still are). The rest is Mets history. Omar convinces ownership that they must spend money to compete in the New York market. Taking almost the opposite approach of Jim Duquette and his “we won’t sign anyone to more than a 3 year contract” method that ended up costing us Vladimir Guerrero the previous offseason. The Mets went out and spent big on Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran, and traded for highly priced first basemen Carlos Delgado. If Kazmir comes up to Shea in 2004, does he create enough buzz that Fred sticks with Duquette another season? Do we not then sign Pedro and Beltran?
It’s been a little over eight years since the Kazmir trade, and in that time the sting has mostly worn off. Scott Kazmir never won a Cy Young or a World Series. He never became Nolan Ryan or Dwight Gooden. Time, will undoubtedly diminish the significance of the trade. The incompetence of it eventually fading away behind the Mets’ more recent incompetence. In 20 years when a young fan reads about it, he will see only the career stats of both pitchers. Never truly knowing what a colossal blunder the trade was at the time. Even now, I still wonder how Tampa was able to pry Kazmir from the Mets? How could they have ripped us off so badly? It’s as if Jeff Wilpon stumbled into the wrong casino, and there in the parking deck were the Devil Rays, holding a knife, asking for his blue chip.
This Fan Shot was submitted by MMO reader, Noah Rainwater. Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over 12 thousand Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com. Or ask about being a regular contributor, and share your opinions with an engaging community that loves to debate
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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You know, while I thought the price was too high I actually understood the trade at the time. I don’t know at this point how easy it is to find but the guy had dominated in inter-league play posting a 2.72 ERA and incredible BAA in those starts as well. Again, it was a risky trade but that is what happens sometimes when you “go for it” without considering the consequences.
Of course this does not consider the fact that many in the Mets organization were concerned about Kazmir’s delivery and injury potential which they were right about.
Good job here Noah.
At the end of the day, the Mets were right to be concerned with Scott Kazmir – they just did a bad job of masking it and trading him at a high price. Looking back – I feel like they rushed it rather than going to find a big piece and allowing a team to ASK about Kazmir.
So right idea – poor execution. Great write up.
Hi Noah,
Great point about the Mets not letting other clubs know they were willing to part with Kazmir – who knows who they could have gotten in return if Kazmir was indeed just brought up by Tampa Bay.
It seems from what you posted, many teams would have been interested in Scott/
I remember it the same way. It just seemed that if you are trading a guy like that, you should get mroe for him. The way Victor flamed out did not help.
I seem to recall being cautiously optimistic about Zambrano though, largely based on those inter league stats. But again, the price was wrong. He seemed like someone you get at the deadline for smaller chips.
Oh, and of course, picking up someone that was known to be damaged without seeming to do appropriate due diligence was not good (butt foreshadowed Putz!) either.
When you look back (in life, not just BB), it is amazing how one decision that seems small at the time can have such far reaching implications. Say they did trade him tot he Phils instead for Howard. The Delgado deal never goes down, and likely 2006-2010 look a lot different.
Great article ! Does anyone else remember on the day of the trade Harold Reynolds (then at ESPN) offering his comment that getting Zambrano for Kazmir was a great deal for the Mets ?
Hi Noah,
“Following the trade, rumors leaked that Jeff Wilpon, and not GM Jim Duquette, was in charge of roster decisions.”
Whoa, a general manager who was not really in charge of roster decisions? What’s next – implying Sandy Alderson was not in charge of the same decisions in Oakland?
can you give it a rest for 1 thread at least? Especially one that has zippo to do with the current or previous GM?
Didn’t care for him much but Doubleday was dead on with his parting shot when he proclaimed Jeff Wilpon was going to bring this team down.
Good article. This trade, even with how Kazmir has flamed out now, was shockingly horrible. Still makes me shake my head.
I’m convinced that Leiter was a Yankee double agent and Glavine a Brave double agent sent in to help destroy the Mets.
the only thing Glavine really did for the Mets was leave Ike behind. And that was only because the Braves (shockingly) did not wait for the arb deadline to pass, knowing the Mets were not going to offer it.
I disagree, I actually think Al was very under appreciated. He wasn’t an ace and had to carry the staff as an ace and did a very good job in doing so. He finished with 95 win and a 3.42 ERA in 7 years.
I was at his last game as a Met. After seeing that in person, I am still bitter!
Just as with Beltran, Wright and Glavine, one game doesn’t a player make.
he got squezzed by the home umpire and if u dont give Glavine the outside corner…he is ineffective…
what ticked me off was his blase attitude in front of the camera after the game…
he said:
“I’m not devastated, but I am disappointed,” he said after allowing seven runs in just one-third of an inning. “Devastated is a word used for greater things in life than a game. I was disappointed in the way I pitched.”
You have to at least pretend like its the end of the world when you are eliminated like that…
He was also interviewed later on after making that comment, and does put it all into perspective.
“My parents always taught me to have perspective, to recognize where parts of your life really fit in the overall picture,” Glavine said. “When you become a parent, you see things differently. The health and welfare of your family comes first. Maybe I wasn’t prepared to hear that word — devastated. As disappointed as I was, I didn’t think about devastation, not because of a baseball game.
“My son is 11, he has a friend who’s going to lose his leg to cancer. That is devastation. That was an awful game, a terrible outcome for us. But it wasn’t life and death. What I said — how I answered that question after the game — was a reflection of how I was raised, that the game is fun and important and sometimes disappointing. But there is a point where your disappointment e
Despite the fact that Zambrano was a dud and there was so much hype about Kazmir, anyone who watched Kazmir’s side-slinging delivery should have realized that he was always one step away from arm problems!
Imagine this nightmare….Kazmir has a good season or so, the Mets decide to sign him to a long term, big dollar deal and wham he ends up lame and we pay for it years down the road.
I wonder how many years did Tampa end up paying Scott for?
I was just about to post the same thing, keeping him could have had worse consequences than trading him for a dud.
Hi Alan,
That’s what I think is going to happen to Stausberg in Washington with that hard whip of his due to stretching his arm too much behind his shoulders. Perhaps that is why he was shutdown by the nationals as well.
Kazmir is nothing more than a prime example of why you don’t hang on to prospects if the right players are available to trade them for. Especially when it comes to pitchers whose careers can end in the blink of an eye.
assuming of course it is for the right player. and you have to keep some of them to fill out your own roster. The trick, of course, is picking a cole hamels to keep and not a scott Kazmir!
there were a lot of people back then who could accept the logic behind the trade (taking a flyer at the playoffs, and worry that Kazmir might not hold up(, and the majority of the complaints werea bout who they got back.
This trade still gives me chills. In a way I’m kind of glad he didn’t end up being a Verlander or Cain in terms of impact and talent.
There were also rumors circulating just prior to the trade of Kazmir’s night life, heavy partying and possible recreational drug use. Although there was no photo proof as with Grant Roberts, I could see Jeff pulling the trigger on the trade with no factual evidence.
” If Kazmir comes up to Shea in 2004, does he create enough buzz that Fred sticks with Duquette another season? Do we not then sign Pedro and Beltran?”
I doubt it. Duquette was one of Philips’ guys with a an interim tag. A remnant of when Doubleday was still making decisions. Wilpon wanted to get rid of all that and wanted to bring in his guy, Minaya.
Unless the Mets actually made the playoffs with Kazmir’s help, Duquette was moving on.
Oh please! Minaya was way more of a Phillips guy than Duquette was….
Actually Minaya was hired specifically to help Phillips out b/c the Wilpons felt he was too green.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2003-05-04/sports/18230185_1_gm-jim-duquette-steve-phillips-gm-job
Wilpon also told the Daily News: “When I first elevated Steve to the GM job, we had a plan, the center of which was a support team for him in Dave Wallace, who was there for his expertise in pitching, and Omar Minaya, who was there for his expertise in Latin America. Along the way, we got away from that plan when Dave and Omar left the organization.”
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Al Goldis…one of the “superscouts” that influenced the kazmir/zambrano trade…was actually a local NY guy who was a St. John’s batting instructor ( 69-70) , limo driver…long-time friend of the Wilpons…and was Jeff Wilpon’s batting instructor back in the 70′s…..
Al Goldis had more influence over Jeff than Duquette….
Tony Bernazard had more influence over Jeff than Omar…
Sandy made sure to hire 2 of his guys that are loyal to him immediately…but Im actually scared to see what happens when Sandy leaves…Neither Depo and JP are GM material…and I see nothing that suggests the Wilpons have changed their stripes…
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Some fun articles on the Wilpons…
http://grandslamsingle.com/forum/printthread.php?t=2054
Jeff also said he goes on scouting trips to educate himself, not to foist his will on player personnel or to operate behind Duquette’s back.
“I think my job at the end of the day is to question,” Jeff said.
Former Met employees say Fred Wilpon is a yeller, but Jeff Wilpon actually could get physically imposing when he loses his temper. The result, these executives said, is a feeling that if you do not agree with the Wilpons, your job is in jeopardy and this breeds “yes” men. For example, one former executive says, ex-hitting coach Denny Walling did not agree that minor-league hitting coaches should also serve as the first-base coach and challenged Jeff’s counter view at a large, preseason meeting, and “he was essentially fired that day.”
Duquette and Jeff Wilpon say Walling was fired for job performance, nothing else, and Jeff says he pleads for honesty from his employees even if it contradicts his views. “No,” Jeff said when asked if he had an anger-management issue.
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If you remember the scenario, the Mets were coming off back to back disastrous seasons in 2002 and 2003. When the trade was made, the Mets were 49-53 and insanely decided to make a playoff run. Kris Benson was going to be a free agent that year so rather than be patient and sign him for 2005, the Mets pull the tigger on this fiasco. Then Mets decide because they don’t like Benson’s wife, to trade him to the Orioles. You can’t make this stuff up.
The Mets’ talent evaluation has always been poor. From Steve Chilcott to Jason Bay — and way, way too many in between. The whole system has sucked for too many years. Scouting, drafting, minor leagues, general managers, ownership. The proof is in the bottom line. 50 years and most of ‘em have been frustrating.
The great baseball player has found really a good relief of his stress.
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