As many of us said – he’s has and still is the business end of the organizations he has worked for but because he has become a symbol of achievement for many who are into money ball and/or saber metrics and I think they do not want to acknowedge what they thought of him was more a myth than anything else. I do believe as he got more authority in the day to day matters of player personnel he began insisting those below him utilize advanced statistical analysis and we see where that has gotten Oakland, San Diego and the Mets.

and there is being cheap…

u cant give contracts to Frank Francisco 6 mil…Mike Pelfrey 5 mil …Jon Rauch 3.5 mil…Andres Torres 3 mil…

Lil known fact…

For 3 seasons straight Pelfrey has been pitching with a bum shoulder…they KNEW going into the season that he was a huge injury risk…AND STILL did not non-tender him…or trade him…nada…

all this in the same year Jose Reyes is making 10 mil…

We all saw the writing on the wall with Reyes when Sandy Alderson came in yapping about how important it was for Jose Reyes to increase his OBP and plate patience if he wanted a contract…

Well Reyes in 2007 led ALL MLB SS IN WALKS…and was top 3 in 2008…and #1 again in 2011….

not even a peep of an offer…

fact is…Sandy does not specialize in WINNING without a budget..

6 straight years of below .500 ball..
1981 Oakland Athletics American League 64 45 .587 - 1,304,052
1982 Oakland Athletics American League 68 94 .420 25.0 5 1,735,489
1983 Oakland Athletics American League 74 88 .457 25.0 4 1,294,941
1984 Oakland Athletics American League 77 85 .475 7.0 4 1,353,281
1985 Oakland Athletics American League 77 85 .475 14.0 4 1,334,599
1986 Oakland Athletics American League 76 86 .469 16.0 3 1,314,646
1987 Oakland Athletics American League 81 81 .500 4.0 3 1,678,921

The Glory Years = the highest payrolls in baseball
1988 Oakland Athletics American League 104 58 .642 - 1 2,287,335
1989 Oakland Athletics American League 99 63 .611 - 1 2,667,225
1990 Oakland Athletics American League 103 59 .636 - 1 2,900,217
1991 Oakland Athletics American League 84 78 .519 11.0 4 2,713,493
1992 Oakland Athletics American League 96 66 .593 - 1 2,494,160

The bottom drops out…in 1995…sandy starts using sabermetric principles
1993 Oakland Athletics American League 68 94 .420 26.0 7 2,035,025
1994 Oakland Athletics American League 51 63 .447 1.0 2 1,242,692
1995 Oakland Athletics American League 67 77 .465 11.5 4 1,174,310
1996 Oakland Athletics American League 78 84 .481 12.0 3 1,148,380
1997 Oakland Athletics American League 65 97 .401 25.0 4 1,264,218

Mets

2011 – 77-85
2012 – 74 -88

In 18 years as a General Manager…Sandy’s teams finished with more than 81 wins only 6 times…

and in those 6 times…his team had the highest payroll in baseball in 1991…and a top 5 payroll in 1992…his 1988-1990 years were NOT built on sabermetrics….it was old-fashioned scouting…great management in Tony Larussa…getting top talent draft picks…in McGuire and Walt Weiss…and a cheater in Jose Canseco…

This is my long-winded way of saying….Sandy Alderson’s sabermetric reputation is far over-blown…

“They spent $535 million dollars over 4 seasons and have NOTHING to show for it. NOTHING. ”

They have a playoff to show for it and a bucket load of money from fans that paid for what they spent!

What have we got today?

Payroll Flexability? Where is it?

“I think the WIlpons totally dissed their fans”

Amen to that. That is why a lot of us won’t go to see a Met game anymore. It’s the attitude of the ownership as reflected in the lack of concern for the average fan, let alone those who were able to afford season tickets in the past.

We all understand prices go up but there are enough of us to see when ownership is trying to max that profit by strangle holding the fan base. BTW – looking at photos from the upper decks right past third base in St. Louis, Cincinnati, Philadelphia and San Diego, those in the “cheap seats” can actually see all of left field. The reason? The Wilpons wanted to give patrons at that expensive and exclusive restaurant a better view of the field at the expense of all the fans above.

That’s another way of “dissing” a good portion of the fan base.

When the Mets played the 2000 season, my seats (same appx. location as my debacle at CitiField) cost $38.00 seat. By the time we got to the first year at CitiField, the tickets were now $150/seat. I think the WIlpons totally dissed their fans. This is a baseball game. It’s not supposed to cost $600-$1000 to go to a single baseball game. That’s why attendence keeps dropping. So now the tickets cost maybe around the same price as the last year in Shea Stadium. But those prices had almost doubled in 4 years. Something is wrong with this model. As a kid tickets were $4.50 for box seats, $2.50 for reserved seats, and $1.50 for bleachers, and it was like this for years.

Look at the Yankees, they have loads of empty seats all the time too, with the $1250 seats, that used to cost $10 just 22-25 years ago. That doesn’t look like inflation adjusted to me. If the Wilpons wanna put fans back in the seats, make it reasonable to come to the games, and put a quality product on the field. In the edge of inexpensive hi-def tv’s, why would anyone want to spend so much money to go to a game, when there are 81 of them (at home) each year. At least in Football, there are only 8 games. Just my .02.

So I’m not sure where you’re getting that I think “making a playoff means nothing” since my entire argument is based on the fact they DID do that.

Add Nothing together and what does it add up to?

I guess the Mets from the 80′s did nothing too
They only had two Postseason appearances!

When the A’s get to 17 Appearances in 18 Years let us all know…
You might have finally proved something about Moneyball.

Winning an average of 95 games with 4 playoff appearances is better for any fan base than winning 84 games and 1 playoff appearance.

Talking about attendance or the players on the team is just talking points to try and diminish a team that did a better job than our team.

I guess I really need to check my priorities because if somebody offers me my pick between the two

A) 4 playoff appearances in 5 years with an average of 95 wins a season
or
B) 1 playoff appearance in 5 years with an average of 84 wins a season and 2 epic regular season collapses

I don’t think my first reaction will be “well which team had the better attendance?” The fact that yours is – really says a lot about what you look for as a fan.

You either are blatantly TRYING to argue with me or you have absolutely no idea of the market in Oakland, or the issues with that stadium.

Did the A’s under moneyball pack the place and make money hand over fist the way we did?

NOPE!
In fact they made so little they were forced to sell off all thier good players who did NOT cost a lot because they couldn’t afford them!

So they got to the same place as those mets but never got the big payoff when the winning was happening…

You’re going to honestly tell me that $535million was spent well because the Mets made it to the LCS in year 1 of that spending and then because they were “competitive” in September in 07 and 08?

Just FYI – they weren’t “competitive” in September – that’s why they missed the playoffs.

Now you want to compare it to the period of time that the book Moneyball was written?

There is a DRASTIC difference between spending $535m over 5 seasons reaching the playoffs ONCE and doing what the A’s did from 99-06. If the Mets made the playoffs in 07 and 08, you’d have a much better argument. But they didn’t – so you don’t.

The A’s made the 5 times in those 8 years. To get 5 playoff appearances for the Mets, you gotta go back to 1986. Comparing that only makes the A’s look that much better. So thats 5 appearances in 8 years compared to 5 appearances in 27 years. Yeah – they did nothing.

Tell me right now: If I told you that you could trade the Mets 06-10 seasons where they spent $535m for the A’s 2000-2004. You’re gonna tell me you’re taking the Mets results? Really?

So on a 20 year deferred payment plan they made all the money owed the player in 10 years!

Sure they did but Sandy spent it on that crappy Bullpen rebuild that netted us scrubs!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rsoxatte.shtml

this is what happens when you WIN consistently