Comments on: Mets Minor League Positional Depth Chart: Catcher

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:07:54 +0000

yeah i dont believe i have seen it broken down for minor leaguers yet…

IMO, im totally happy with a all-glove, no bat C, who calls a great game, handles a staff well, throws runners out

he can hit .220 for all i care

a C will have influence over 120-150 pitches per game…

multiply that by 130 games

thats over 15,000 pitches a catcher has thrown at him over the course of a season….

if he has issues with handling balls in the dirt…throwing runners out…calling a good game….

his 20-25 HR’s wont have as much of an effect on the team’s success as the other aspects of the game

People have changed their perception of what is important for the positions up the middle ( SS/2B/CF/C )

Defense is still primarily the key for those positions…u cant win with a poor defensive catcher

Of the 10 teams that made the playoffs this year

6 division title winners and 4 WC winners

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/seasontype/2/position/c/order/true

9 of their catchers ranked in the top 11 defensively

the only one missing from the list was Geovany Soto….and that was b/c he didnt play enough games with Texas…his fielding percentage was .997 which would’ve placed him at #1

this is why i laugh when our so-called analysts discuss catching and focus on their offense

a big bopper for a catcher is useless if he cant catch

For example, after 2000, if Mike Piazza was in the AL…he would’ve been a DH on most teams…

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/year/2005/seasontype/2/position/c/order/true

Go year by year…and Piazza’s defense went down…and down…and down….in 1999, 2000, he had the best fielding percentage among all catchers…

in 2001, it slipped to 10
by 2002, he was off the list

in 2004, we had a chance to get arguably the best defensive catcher of all time….this would mean that Piazza would have to move to 1B and put off getting record for HR by a catcher for winning…

neither the Wilpons nor Piazza were going to put WINNING above that

this is among the reasons why our team never wins…

they never put WINNING first

its always something else

now its…

O we need to sign David Wright because he’s the face of the franchise

Winning comes 1st and foremost…

all the fans that would’ve complained in December that we signed Pudge would’ve changed their opinion if Pudge leads us to a WS at any point from 2004-2008

I seriously feel that Pudge on the 2005-2006-2007-2008 teams results in a different outcome

we dont go with backup catchers in 2007
we dont go with Schneider in 2008

By: Nathan

Nathan — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:21:03 +0000

LOL Yeah they are. I haven’t looked into it for him. What is the breakdown for him? My point was more focused on the things that take place on the diamond that don’t show up on the score card or aren’t reflected in the standard stats. Advanced metrics have, supposedly, helped player evaluations but I rarely have the time to go that in-depth with each minor leaguer. However, power in the minors is usually seen as king. If you have a guy that shows power and doesn’t strikeout a ton they are often herald. I do agree that name recognition through the draft or pedigree, does have a bias but in the end it rarely wins over talent.

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:11:33 +0000

I believe the hits now are broken into Line Drives, ground balls, fly-balls,

By: Nathan

Nathan — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:28:26 +0000

I hope you are right in Centeno being a difference maker. However, the hard data is not the sole judge of minor league talent. Scouts and scout wannabe’s have been using “projections” for years. Whether it works or not, I will not judge except to say many players have proven projections both ways. In fact I do this while watching a game. For example The sound of the ball coming off the bat can mean quite alot about how well a pitcher is doing early on and yet if outs are made there is no statistical way to judge how hard the ball was hit. I have never much followed this catcher but he could be a hard line drive hitter or a lucky punch a judy guy but the stats won’t show it either way.

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:18:30 +0000

reality on a fan site?

this guy puts a DH as the best catching prospect in the org

i think reality left a few stops ago !

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:17:01 +0000

of course, i want all of them to be HOF caliber players.

the argument for me is based on how we rate and evaluate the chances of that happening.

Personally, I think the fact that Cam Maron is from Hicksville, grew up a Mets fan and could be another hometown kid does good. it makes him an easier story to root for.

the same with some john franco jr. who we drafted. I actually met john’s cousin at JFK coming from Florida and he was telling me about his son.

His son idolized the mets growing up.
His son grew up in NYC
His son got drafted by the mets in 2009

His son passed up on the mets signing bonus and went to Brown

There is no way in hell you are going to tell me that the media wouldnt root for John Franco’s kid a lil bit more than say….Greg Vaughn’s kid ( Corey Vaughn )

I saw more articles about JJ Franco in the few months after being drafted than I have seen about Corey Vaughn…who is still in the org

Its just a nicer story…we like nice stories.

But please, never let nice stories get in the way of LOGIC

that nice story is 99.999% of the logic behind Petey Pete’s list

maybe its the cold engineer aspect of me…but i look at facts, hard data.

there are intangibles that a catcher brings that affect the game

his ability to develop relationships with umpires…get into the batters head….get into the pitchers head….have his staff trust him…

Pudge was a master of this …this is why he was able to take a young staff in Florida and lead them to a title…

this is why he took the worst team in baseball and in 1 year they made the biggest single record improvement ( detroit 2003-2004 )…2 years later they are in the WS

I seriously think the Mets have a gem on their hands with Centeno

By: Roxio

Roxio — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:00:43 +0000

Insulting readers who disagree or criticize your work means you might want to consider another hobby. Clearly you expect everyone to just drop to their knees and praise your work, which is a fantastic fantasy but has nothing to do with reality on a fan site. Assuming this is still a fan site where all opinions are welcome. Lately it doesn’t seem that way. This site is starting to resemble MetsBlog Lite.

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:51:08 +0000

lol

yeah the agenda’s here are kinda fishy…

petey pete lists 5 guys for the title of best met catching prospect

the guy at the bottom of the list has the best CS% rate, highest batting average

the guy at the top of the list had the lowest CS% rate and was made to be a DH

By: Nathan

Nathan — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:48:02 +0000

I don’t understand the argument. Don’t we all want our ML guys to succeed and develop? Whats with all this nonsense about a guy in a top 5 list being junk. He’s our guy and he had a statistically fine year. Why do some people need to bash a player just to try and prove they know more than the next guy?

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:47:31 +0000

i dont see any other team doing that to their top catching prospect

I am sure Killa Cam will improve his defense, game-calling and incredible 13% CS rate by being a DH !

The same way Francisco Pena improved the quality of the AA bench by sitting on it more often than the guy who replaced him…

who was that…?

you guessed it …

Juan Centeno !

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:44:00 +0000

Considering the guy he thinks is #1 on the list…had a 13% CS rate and was made to be a DH for 30 games this year….i dont think anything can surprise me with Petey Pete aka Bill James…

By: This is stupid

This is stupid — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:39:40 +0000

They did that to get his bat in the lineup when Cordero started

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:37:49 +0000

yes, its easy to have less passed balls when you are no longer a CATCHER !

what an amazing discovery

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:36:59 +0000

2012 – 13 % CS vs. 41% CS

and guess where that landed the top rated catching prospect in Petey Pete’s eyes

as a DH

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=maron-001cam#standard_fielding::none

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/06/mets-minors-daily-attack-of-the-clones-dooms-aberdeen-st-lucie-cruises-to-another-win.html

it turns out the coaching staff doesnt think Camron is even suited to catch low A ball…and the coaching staff didnt think Francisco Pena was suited to start over Juan Centeno…

but please…dont allow any of this to get in the way of Petey Pete’s expert eye-witness analysis

Petey Pete = Metsmerized version of Bill James

By: This is stupid

This is stupid — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:31:04 +0000

And maron has less passed balls

By: This is stupid

This is stupid — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:30:40 +0000

So basically maron has more power, way better obp, slightly higher average, less GDP’s and a much higher walk rate. Centeno throws out more runners and strikes out a little less.

By: This is stupid

This is stupid — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:28:16 +0000

For centeno’s second year it’s 7.3bb% and 13.7K%

By: This is stupid

This is stupid — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:23:37 +0000

Juan centeno-
2011 21 years old high a: 318/368/382 39cs% .2 passed balls/game .075 GDP/game 6.7bb%12.4K%
2012 22 years old double a: 285/337/342 41cs% .11 passed balls/game .38GDP/game 15.3bb%13.7k%

Cam maron-
2011 20 years old low a(Kingsport): 317/431/410 24cs% .07 passed balls/game .03 GDP/game 15.3bb% 13.7K%
2012 21 years old low a (Savannah):300/403/408 13cs% .06 passed balls/game .095 GDP/game
13bb% 17.8K%

By: Nathan

Nathan — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:54:52 +0000

Interesting post Pete, I do enjoy checking in on the minors from time to time. I don’t really have the time to keep up with it so you and others insight insight is appreciated. As to the argument at hand, It really doesn’t matter were a player is slotted in these kinds of rankings. Being in the top 5 is almost the same as being #1 on a list that is as thin as this one. Centeno may keep progressing and end up playing in the majors. If he does well no one will stop him and remind him that his “Ceiling” is low and he has to start playing badly. All this means is that his tools specifically bat do not project well. He may continue to adjust and be a solid hitter. These lists do not stop him from fulfilling his dreams. As for Pena being ahead of him, this is a prospect list conundrum Pena has pedigree, Pena looks like a ballplayer, He should be better than he is, but he isn’t. One is hard pressed to not add him because he should be there and hopefully he will. This could be the reason he is on the list. Centeno is on the llist for what he has done and Pena is on the list for what others think he will do. That is all, it isn’t a dig to anyone’s talent just a different way to view a players formadibe years.

By: Just-Da-Damaja

Just-Da-Damaja — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:07:03 +0000

and yeah batting average isnt the only stat that matters..

thats why i brought up DEFENSE

and in that case..Juan Centeno is defecating all over the guys on this list

so not only does he hit for higher avg

but he ALSO throws out runners at a much higher rate

but no !

Petey Pete saw Centeno 3x times a couple of years ago…

Lets ignore all the statistics

why use fangraphs
why use base-ball reference

petey pete = my baseball reference

when i wanna know how good someone is…i dont pull up stats….

i ask Pete if he has seen them play