3
2012
Collins Says Duda’s A Keeper, Wants His Players Committed To Drawing Walks
An article by 
Terry Collins was a guest on WFAN yesterday with Mike Francesa and told him that he believes he has some unfinished business as manager of the Mets. They discussed a variety of topics which you can read about on MetsBlog or listen to on WFAN. It was mostly the same stuff we’ve all heard before, but two things that really stuck out for me were the following:
Lucas Duda is a Keeper
There seems to be a huge push for promoting Duda since he was recalled from the minors. Duda will finish the season with a batting average somewhere around the high .230′s. His slugging percentage is 100 points lower than last year and he’ll be 27 in February. He has no defensive position he excels at and has struck out 120 times in 398 at-bats. A keeper? I wish Terry Collins would call Ike Davis a keeper. Calling Lucas Duda a keeper because he drew a bunch of walks maybe? I’ll let you figure that out, but there are not many managers I know that would call anyone with a (negative) -1.5 WAR a keeper. We are getting setup for something here, and as I mentioned last week, I think Ike Davis’ days are numbered and you are looking at your 2013 first baseman. Collins is convinced that Duda is a 30-40 home run guy. Not sure if it’s just overblown hype or a sign that Duda will be back and in a prominent role as Alderson attested twice in the past two weeks. They both gloat over Duda with alarming frequency, but when Ike’s name comes up it sounds more like “we like Ike, but nobody is untouchable”.
Philosophy Of Drawing More Walks
His comments regarding the front office driven philosophy of taking more pitches and drawing more walk seemed out of place. It was almost like he dropped a gauntlet to the players and issued a warning to them. He said he wants players that are committed to this philosophy and who will remain committed from the beginning of the season to the very end. I dont want to make a huge issue out of this, but only four teams had more walks than the Mets this season and last season the Mets led the National League in walks. It’s just very strange, and even though it’s obvious the team has embraced this passive approach, it hasn’t had a positive impact in the wins column these last two seasons. In fact we’ve lost increasingly more games the last two seasons under this philosophy. What this team needs is better “hitters” and better “sluggers”. That’s what Alderson needs to go out and get this offseason if he wants to make an impact in the standings and where it counts the most. Anyway…
On A Lighter Note…
Good friend of MMO, Adam Rubin, is cleaning out some old pics from his Twitter account… Check out this memorable shot…
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About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Oh no! Moneyball philosophy of drawing walks…maybe we can sign Scott Hatteberg
Hey Terry, What’s the point of getting on base if nobody can drive you in?
Yes, or maybe we need three young stud pitchers like Mulder, Zito and Hudson. Those three were right on the money back in the day. But truth be told, they couldn’t have won without Hatteberg.
Remember too…a big part was sticking him at first base even though he was a catcher.
BB supposedly said something like, it doesn’t matter if he can field, he just needs to get on base…at least that’s what he said on the movie.
This is sickening news. Yeah let’s mess up more aggressive young hitter who need NO coaching unless they’re in a funk, let’s just make them change their approach anyway.
Unbelievable that they put so much emphasis on this garbage that has absolutely NOTHING to do with winning ballgames and if anything can hurt you more than anything else. They want to try to get to the bullpen by making the starting pitcher work, no matter who he is, even if he’s a guy with no stuff! Even if he’s Roy Halladay on his best day.
All same approach. Amazing dumb, amazing bad, and you will NEVER see an aggressive, post-season minded team with this approach and this FO in place. Never.
I really believe they teach this bulls**t passive approach just to compensate for their deficiency in having true productive sluggers in the line up. What a shame. I personally love the first pitch swinging approach. More times than none that is the best pitch a batter will see.
Actually Watchmen they teach it becauase it looks good on thier spreadsheet full of “OBP is the Holy Grail” biased Calculator columns they use to judge players with.
They keep whining about a lack of power yet who are the guys we all have heard wispers of not being here next year?
Wright, Duda, Davis and Hairston!
#1 through #4 in the HR column
These are the guys that we may need to let go to get better!
At least thats what seems to be what they are thinking.
Well that should pretty much put the nail in the excuse coffin over what Batting Philosophy they are teaching!
Apparently those of us who were “SO WRONG” about what they were teaching were actually SO RIGHT!
Couldn’t agree more Joe with the opinion that I’d wish they’d come out and declare Ike is a keeper.
I won’t be surprised if they keep Duda for the OF, crossing their fingers he does raise that slugging percentage and batting average. Not sure I agree with the logic because he really doesn’t have a defensive position as long as Ike is here.
I did read a quote on not getting rid of Ike unless they can get a piece back to replace those 31 HRs. Not exactly installing confidence he won’t be traded.
Sigh…………… Wouldn’t be surprised if sandy told him to say this…
Maybe they are trying to get his value up to trade. Maybe Boston would take bait for him.
“His comments regarding the front office driven philosophy of taking more pitches and drawing more walk seemed out of place.”
Sandy (during an interview with Gary) said he wants Mets batters to wait until they get a pitch they can handle. That would lead to more walks and likely, more strikeouts, because batters would go deeper into counts. Did anyone ask Terry if this was what he was implying? Or is Terry defying the front office by just looking for walks, irrespective of the pitches thrown to Mets batters? This distinction needs to be cleared up before we conclude that it’s walks, just walks, that the FO wants.
It’s been two years and similar comments like this have been very prevalent regarding walks. There are some statistical sites that would consider a .300 hitter with few walks a poor hitter.
Here is the problem with more walks and more Ks…
There will be FAR MORE K’s than BBs because you only need 3 strikes to K and 4 Balls to walk!
SO waiting really doesn’t help you one bit!
It’s fine to wait for a pitch you can handle right up until the time you have two strikes on you but after that…
You need to handle ALL pitches that are close enough to call as strikes and be able to foul off the un hittable ones in hopes of getting one that IS hittable.
Thats the key to good hitting and high walks not this passive wait wait wait and hope what your waiting for actually comes!
and not only that but the deeper you go into a count the more likely you’ll see a good pitcher’s out pitch. There is so much wrong with this philosophy i don’t know where to begin.
AND………your approach (as you know) changes depending on who’s pitching too!!
What comes into play are the Mets batters facing a nibbler OR a get ahead in the count type of pitcher who throughs strikes. This is where the hitting coach at the start of a series has to do his job and make sure the hitters adapt to the pitcher’s philosphy. That philospopy can change on the game situation and who is on deck or on the bench as a possible PH. Bottom line when strikes over the middle of the plate are thrown there should be good reason not to swing such as a runner has a base stolen.
It all comes down to the fact that there is no “ONE SIZE FITS ALL” answer to being a good hitter!
It is an art of point/counterpoint!
As much a battle of the Wills as it is a battle of the physical.
Taking strikes is NEVER a good idea!
No point to taking it since it’s going to be a strike anyway! You gain nothing!
If you can’t hit it then you got bigger issues because your showing the pitcher thats the pitch he needs to throw to get you out!
Oh you didn’t like that strike? Well here it is again!
You want to wait for a pitch you can hit that is fine right up until the point there are two strikes on you. Once there are two strikes you have to swing at ALL strikes because if you don’t the AB is over,
You NEED to expand the Strike zone with two strikes on you and if all your told is to shrink the strikezone your really just giving up a zone the pitcher can throw to all day until you decide to protect it.
While we can debate all day what it is they are actually telling these hitters to do the bottomline is they let too many fast broadway strikes go buy them and no matter what philosophy you have if thats what you do you will fail.
and not only that but the deeper you go into a count the more likely you’ll see a good pitcher’s out pitch. There is so much wrong with this philosophy i don’t know where to begin.
AND………your approach (as you know) changes depending on who’s pitching too!!
Well the deeper you go into the count the more the Pticher knows about what strikes you don’t like so he can pound you there the rest of the game!
Des, NJ posted the actual quote below.
The Stache said during a previous episode of MMO Radio that some minor leaguer were already complaining about this philosophy. Is there anyway this could be investigated more? Like who are the minor leaguers and what levels, etc?
I want the Mets to win right now like most Mets fans and Sandy. However, I hope any trades that Sandy makes this offseason for probably prospects ready to step into the bigs dangling Ike, Niese or the Dickster doesn’t backfire where the prospects don’t pan out in the bigs and the Mets become even a worse team than they are now. 3 of the 4 biggest contracts and 3 pieces of deadwood- Santana, Bay and Francisco come off the books after next season and even if Sandy resigns both David and the Dickster to contract extensions, Sandy should have a nice piece of change to spend on new players after next season for 2014. With Ike, I think the main concern is how much of a split player he became this year- just a .174 BA and .556 OPS vs. LHP and what Ike is due to earn in 2014 and beyond.
I dont get the fascination with Lucas Duda. His negatives far outweigh the positives. I’m also becoming very concerned that we will lose Ike Davis which I would consider a big mistake. Maybe Rubin was right? Maybe the front office is not in his camp? There seems to be a whisper campaign afoot.
It’s not a fascination with Duda Seligman, it’s a desire to trade Davis that has them talking about Duda.
While I would say it is accurate to say Collins wants his players committed to drawing walks. I took it as in the context of doing so by better plate discipline by not expanding the strike zone and then swinging at pitches outside the strike zone. Therefore as been stated at other times swinging at better pitches keyword swinging. I continue to doubt that he wants his players to go to the plate looking for a walk rather than a hit but that is just my opinion.
Collins full quote for what it’s worth went as follows:
“We got to find some guys that are really willing to stay consistent with their approach at the plate. Not to try to change too much. We went a year and a half here where we led all of baseball with on base percentage, base on balls. Where we got on base. We created runs. A lot of two out hits.
When we started to play in the 2nd half guys got away from the plan. Started to expand the strikezone, started to swing at pitches they couldn’t handle. Again, it was human nature of the fact that everybody wanted to step up and be the guy to right this ship.
What we got to do is maintain what we’ve done, what made us succesful. Stay with it and realize we are going to have a couple of tough weeks. Every team is going to have them but we got to fight through that. We got to find the right guys that are going to be able to do that.”
Man, I was looking for that quote and couldn’t find it. Thanks.
That sounds nothing like how it is being portrayed and seems consistent with what the focus has been on all along.
Interesting. It seems Terry was just referring to plate discipline rather than trying to draw walks.
I guess that doesn’t get as many conversations going.
Well he did seem to say he wanted more base on balls not more hits…
“We went a year and a half here where we led all of baseball with on base percentage, base on balls.”
Aren’t hits better than Walks?
“It seems Terry was just referring to plate discipline rather than trying to draw walks.”
That is at least my take Donal. I have yet to read or ever hear Collins say he wants his guys to take fastballs over the plate until 2 strikes because he would rather they walk than God forbid hit an extra base hit somewhere.
If there is such a quote I would sure love to read it as I would surely find such a comment to be the dumbest thing he could ever say deserving of a worthy berate from my part.
Mitch, i know you haven’t been in this thread yet, but you made a comment on another thread, and i just wanna say that the CORE salute you and is with you 1000000%…
From Mike kerwick: We’re talking to Mets GM Sandy Alderson in a few. I suspect this is how he will open his address. http://bit.ly/p0D0pC #mets
Of all our hitters, Duda appears to benefit from swinging earlier in the count. Once he get 2 strikes, he’s extremely susceptible to a low breaking pitch, which accounts for most of his K’s.
Would rather keep Ike, unless Met brass knows something we don’t.
Every time Duda has a lame AB I here the movie Caddyshack when the kid in the pool saw the O’Henry bar
hear
Alderson hasn’t been the GM of a winning team in years, no wonder, with this dumb a** approach. We watch fastballs down the middle that should be crushed over the walls.
From Rubin: 3rd day of change: Jeurys Familia will relieve in winter ball. “We had a little conversation,” Terry Collins said. That was Mets’ preference
and if you tell me collins was given a paper to read of what this FO wants your kidding yourself.. he has absolutely no say in what this team will do
managers normally don’t decide that stuff. They can give their opinions, but the FO is supposed to decide what to do with guys (minors or majors, pen of SP). that is their job.
I don’t need to watch stats. but we were amongst the worst teams while ahead in the count… that should tell you all you need to know about this bogus phylosophy to proved nothing during the season..
From rubin:
Alderson said goals are: 1. Build through farm. 2. Retain core players. 3. Add free agents/trades on “fairly judicious basis.”
What is this damn obsession with walks? This must be a Mets thing. When Alderson becomes commissioner expect a new annual award, Most Valuable Walker.
It’s a sabermetric Moneyball thing….
Guys who walk don’t get paid a lot.
OMF,
Instead of playing baseaball with 25 different talents that all have something to offer when you’re trying to WIN and get to the post season the philosophy has shifted from playing ball, winning, and going after the other team to trying to get the starting pitcher out of the game by making him throw as many pitches as possible.
That’s what it is now – let’s try and get the SP out of the game – regardless if it’s a guy with a flat 85 mph fastball throwing hanging breaking balls that you would go after and attack or a Roy Halladay on a good day when he’s throwing nothing but strikes and you have play a different kind of game completely.
Now it’s all one approach. Hello last place 2013. Already.
You should ask Joe D, Bayonne, and alex. It seems to be what they zero in on when anyone discusses hitting and plate discipline.
You forgot to mention Terry Collins there….
“We went a year and a half here where we led all of baseball with on base percentage, base on balls.”
Donal, a lot of us know you lack baseball knowledge about aproach at the plate, you’ve never play the game yourself so you wouldn’t know what a coach is telling you when you go to the plate.. It has been point out throughout baseball that if you work the count on your favor, you’ll get a better pitch to hit, however, with this mets, it’s the total opposite. you ever wonder why the mets lead the league in 2 strike hits and 2 strike RBI at some point? That’s because the league caught up to them and their stupid ass phylosophy. did you check the stats of the mets went ahead 2-1 or 3-0 or even 3-1 in the count? their slugging % was amongst the worst in baseball, along with BA and RBI and HR. doesn’t that tell you something? most of this hitters went in there looking for “their” pitch, but that pitch was normally after trying to work the count, at first the league wasn’t aware of what the mets hitters were doing, but once they found out, they started throwing strikes, putting hitters in a hole right away, hence a lot of defensive swing and drop of productons on even the most prolific hitters on the team. therefore, most of the hitter became a bit more aggressive and that’s why your lord SA made those ridiculous PPA comments, which turn out to be false as the mets hitters were taking one less pitch per at bat..
Sandy Alderson: “Overall a disappointing season marked by some positive things.”
Yeah, a No hitter and …. what else??? Maybe Ike bouncing back? Harvey? Wright first half?
dickey? Notice how all those guys STILL pertaing to the minaya era??
Sandy Alderson said trades may be “more active, but not a given.”
Good luck with this guy improving the team…
Alderson: “I don’t want to give the impression we’ll be in the free-agent market looking for significant” pieces”
Translation: No FA signing this year.. Unless is garbage players…
I wonder why the hitters in the second half were, in Sandy’s words “Started to expand the strikezone, started to swing at pitches they couldn’t handle. Again, it was human nature of the fact that everybody wanted to step up and be the guy to right this ship.”
Could it have been the burden of trying too hard because they knew they had to score more runs to create a bigger lead to protect the bullpen from blowing – on top of seeing that the starting pitching was starting to falter and thus that meant even more runs required to offset the more runs we were giving up?
That, of course, is not Terry’s fault.
But as far as drawing more walks, don’t you think one has to also talk to the opposing pitcher about that?
Generally, if you don’t swing at the crap they throw off the plate, opposing pitchers get the message.
And if you don’t swing at the stuff ON the plate merely because it’s not your favorite pitch to hit the Pitchers get THAT message as well!
They also get the message that your not going to swing at the first pitch strike so might as well throw it and get into a pitchers count right away and take away the hitter’s advantage.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/58372/sandy-alderson-address-offseason-challenges?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Thanks for the link…..interesting.
Would you guys just admit obp is good and stop this “moneyball and sabermetrics are retarted” crap? EVERY single front office uses sabermetrics. all of them. And it was proven like 10 years ago that obp is more important than batting average by people way smarter than any of us. Just stop.
It was never proven thats just a myth!
It was proven every year for the past three years that higher OBP does not lead to higher RS!
Doesn’t correlate to RS in anyway!
That teams with a lower OBP score more runs than those with a higher OBP.
But you keep on believing all this crap you think is true because it was posted on the internet if thats what makes you feel smart.
HI OBP,
Not a statement about the importance of OBP but rather the ascertation that it’s importance (one way or the other) was proven about ten years ago. The annual range give or take a few points from batting average to OBP has remained about the same about the last 60 years – minus the six year period (1963-1968) with the increased strike zone and the steroid era.
IN fact, for a number of years between the late forties and early fifties, the OBP range was actually about ten points higher than we get now. If getting on base any way possible wasn’t deemed as important more than a half century ago past, it would show up in the variation between batting averages and on base percentages.
Meant Hi “This is stupid” not Hi “OBP” LOL.
Duda is the Butch Husky of the 2013 mets. Wait and see. Ike is the keeper everyone knows it. Ike plays Gold glove caliber first base, he has heart, and he is a 280 to 290 hitter with 30 plus homer power. His 302 last season was no fluke. Sadly he will be hitting monster home runs elsewhere and we will see Duda walk 100 times, strike out nearly 200 times and hit maybe 20 home runs and play barley adequate first base..Sigh…