15
2012
Beltran Sets Postseason Record In SLG and OPS, Pagan Could Net Giants A First Round Pick
An article by 
During the St. Louis Cardinals’ 6-4 win over the San Francisco Giants, Carlos Beltran who hit a two run homer in the fourth inning, became the all time leader with a .817 slugging percentage in National League Championship Series history. This after becoming the all-time leader in the ALDS with a 1.486 OPS.
Last night, Beltran admitted that the Giants never called him after the season ended and that there was still a little bitterness. He has maintained all along he enjoyed his time in San Francisco and was hoping to re-resign with them. ”But hey never called,” said Beltran, who signed a two-year, $26 million deal with the Cardinals instead.
“What we didn’t realize is what a presence he is in the clubhouse, really great with the young guys,” utilityman Skip Schumaker said. “You don’t know what you’re getting in a free agent. You don’t know how they’re going to mix in the clubhouse.”
Meanwhile in the other clubhouse, the other former Met, Angel Pagan, couldn’t stop talking about Beltran whom he calls his teacher and mentor.
“He helped me a lot to be consistent with my swing throughout the year,” said Pagan, 31, who teamed with Beltran on the Mets. “It meant so much. I knew I had the talent, but I needed a push like that, work the right way, to take it to the right level. I learned so many things from him, and I still keep that in my preparation.”
Pagan led the majors with a San Francisco-record 15 triples and was tops on the team with 29 steals, batted .309 with 53 runs scored from August 1st on.
Giants GM Brian Sabean has said he will make a strong effort to retain Angel Pagan and at the very least should make him a qualifying offer of about $12 million for a one year deal. But it’s expected that Pagan will seek a 2-3 year deal this Winter. However under the new CBA rules any team that signs Pagan will forfeit a first round pick if he’s tendered a qualifying offer, and the Giants will get an extended first round pick as compensation.
This might be a good time to review the new Collective Bargaining Agreement Rules as we head into a new offseason as summarized by MLBTR:
- Type A and Type B designations have been eliminated. Instead, teams will have to make players a qualifying offer to be eligible for draft pick compensation.
- The qualifying offer, which will be determined by averaging the top 125 player salaries from the previous year, is expected to fall in the $12-13MM range for the coming offseason. All qualifying offers are for the same duration (one year) and the same amount ($12-13MM).
- Teams will have until five days after the World Series to make qualifying offers and the players will have seven days to accept.
- Once a team makes a qualifying offer, the player has two choices: he can accept the one-year deal or decline in it search of other offers. If he declines the offer and signs elsewhere, his new team will have to surrender a top draft pick (the selection doesn’t go to the player’s former team).
- Teams that sign free agents who turned down qualifying offers will surrender their first round picks. However, the forfeited picks don’t go to other MLB teams. Instead, the first round simply becomes condensed.
- The first ten selections in the draft are protected. Teams with protected picks will surrender their second-highest selections.
- The player’s former team will receive its compensatory selection at the end of the first round. Teams now obtain one compensatory selection, instead of two.
- If teams don’t make a qualifying offer, the player can sign uninhibited.
- Only players who have been with their clubs for the entire season will be eligible for compensation.
On a side note, the Mets still need outfielders. Sorry, you probably already knew that. 
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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I can’t play the game of “we would have had these guys,” because it’s such a crapshoot and to me just a game of what if’s.
When Angel Pagan was here, most Mets fans disliked the way he played the game. You have to also remember that part of letting somebody like Beltran go had to do with Lucas Duda as well. If you had faith in Duda at all, then there was no place for Beltran because there was NO WAY the Mets were not penciling Bay into LF – you can’t change that.
If you want to tell me that all of a sudden you think Duda was going to be what we saw in 2012 – that’s fine. But a lot of people were predicting big things for him in 2012.
For Pagan, I still think his situation is a beautiful hindsight story. I’ve been hearing about “Captain Kirk” for such a long time and had he played the full season and we felt we actually had the CF of the future that some thought – it wouldn’t be a big deal. Ramirez had a better track record than any 7/8th inning guy the Mets could have hoped for and it didn’t work out.
Last night I watched as Quentin Berry doubled and scored a run in the LCS. Berry was a 2010 Rule 5 pick by the Mets and has played 94 games with the Tigers.
You can pick apart anything you want, but the facts are that while yes Beltran is having another great postseason – he didn’t have one with the Mets. Wright had a 2nd half slump and he’s called unclutch. Beltran had a WORSE 2nd half slump for the Cards and some people are dreaming of the days when he was a Met.
Pagan is a 31 year old free agent CF who had a below average year at 30 years old. Just because he’s on a playoff team now doesn’t change what he was for the Mets.
People beg for creative trades, well trading a soon to be free agent for a top SP prospect and another soon to be free agent for what looked to be a bigtime middle reliever that the Mets sorely needed is creative.
If Wheeler turns out to be as good as Jon Niese – they will win the Beltran trade. If Ramirez had pitched the way we all should have expected him to – then we wouldn’t be worrying about Angel Pagan.
How Beltran turned out to play the game as if he were 25 again is a mystery to me, too. I don’t think you can predict this sort of thing.
Obviously, his health and work ethic were keys. Let’s not underestimate the power of well-tuned baseball organizations either. What is the consistent St. Louis success formula? I don’t know, but the Mets surely don’t have it. Yes, I think St. Louis is a difference-maker. It’s true for a lot of the best teams.
It’s ethic, attitude, responsibilities, clear rules, expectations, treatment…sigh! I guess a lot of what we don’t have.
maybe he coasted in the 2nd half (resting up?) to get ready for the playoffs? WOuld not be the first older/achy guy that had to pick his spots to leave it all on the field!
Coasting in the 2nd half , waiting for the playoffs……I don’t think so. Cards didn’t even clinch a spot till the last week. Nice try, but that doesn’t account for his 2nd half.
The Pagan trade was about one thing and one thing only — shedding salary. They get rid of Pagan at 4.8 million and take on two player at 5 million. Again, all about savinf money.
People didn’t like the baserunning blunders but you can’t expect to replace him with Kirk who had 228 AAA at bats the year before. If they had gone out and gotten a decent outfielder, it could have been justified. But Torres is 4 years older and off a .228 year in SF so that can’t be justified. So they threw in Ramirez. People loved the stats, but he had been traded 5 times in six years which should have been a warning sign. Plus they did the trade on the same day they signed Franscisco and Rausch and even otu of Spring Training he was not even in front of Parnell. So you basically gave Pagan away. It was a lousy trade from the get go and has not looked better with age.
“The Pagan trade was about one thing and one thing only — shedding salary. They get rid of Pagan at 4.8 million and take on two player at 5 million. Again, all about savinf money.”
…?…
According to Fangraphs, Pagan’s 2012 season is worth $21.6 million and he has a 4.6 WAR.
awesome. So does that mean you think he’s worth that much $? I sure don’t. This is why I don’t really care what a players “war” or projected $ value is. It’s totally unrealistic.
I’ll promise you this. If somebody signs Angel Pagan to a multi-year deal worth $15m+ per year, they will regret it. You can take that to the bank.
Why you jumping down my throat for? I just went to go see Pagan’s value after reading this post and thought I would share what I discovered. Forgive me for living. I didn’t say he should get $21 million, but a $12 million one year qualifying offer is certainly defensible and it will get the Giants a first round pick if declines it.
Mostly responding to FanGraphs, not you bud
my apologies if it came off that way
Jessup not to start here…
But now you know what I mean when I say your way of dealing with things you disagree with is one of the leading causes to the types of responses you get that you consider attacks.
If you didn’t want to start – you wouldn’t have responded. Brendan made mention below that OTHERS attacked him in the past, so my response to him when taken out of that context is harmless – you know it and I know it.
And unlike the other people who probably attacked him – I stepped up and apologized and ensured he knew I didn’t mean it like that.
Yes you did step up, but it’s a shame you had to now isn’t it?
No one had a problem with you saying he wasn’t worth the money…
But it started off with belittling the poster before you moved onto what you wanted to say.
Sarcastic smugness!
If you didn’t have a vested interest in making Pagan look bad and attack those who happen to accept he had a very good year and better than the guys Sandy traded him to get, you probably wouldn’t have reacted the way you did.
You can be a great poster and a horrible one…
It all depends on how much “Sandy Defense” the subject requires and how much the facts presented might cause you grief in the future defense of him.
Why not just admit Pagan had a great year for him, why belittle that simply because Sandy made a bad trade you would like to defend as a good day?
If you want to talk about Pagan, talk about Pagan.
Quit trying to interject personal feelings into it okay?
You weren’t involved in the situation yet stuck your nose in after it was settled. It’s done. Quit trying to use it as some political advantage over me.
Ah so your the only one here allowed to inject personal feelings I suppose?
Are you the MMO Untouchable where rules don’t apply?
LOL, you do realize that he will just respond and respond and respond until you give up right? Best to as I did, go on moratorium and let him find someone new to do this with.
As you have in the other 200 Comment threads we had recently where me and you didn’t talk at all!
Good for Carlos. Hope he continues to hit well in post season.
I noticed he was very vocal about being disappointed or ‘bitter’ as this article states, in the fact the Giants didn’t make an effort to retain him.
I also noticed there was no such comment from him concerning the Mets. In fact, he waved his no trade clause to get out of town last July. Doesn’t sound like a player who wanted to finish his career with the Mets, as some fans have stated.
Oh, and to you Steve Phillips: let me just say you were 100% wrong.
Not only is Beltran a ‘winning’ player, one who helped his team get to post season and is still helping them in post season, he’s also a great presence in the clubhouse.
You’ll almost always hear a player say they wanted to stay with a team after they left. Because you don’t want to be a bad guy as a player and you always need to keep your options open. If somebody wants to believe Beltran wished to finish his career in NY as a Met, that is their business. But if you look at it logically, there’s no reason for it. There’s no reason for an aging player to really want to be with a team like the Mets if he wanted to win a WS in the next few years. It’s 1 or the other.
During Game 5 of LDS, announcers were talking about Beltran as 1 of the greatest postseason players ever. The expanded playoffs have totally ruined any logical conversation about that. Beltran has never even been to a World Series, how can he at 35 be one of the greatest postseason players ever?
You’re gonna tell me a guy like Yogi Berra thinks Beltran is a better postseason player than he was? How about Ruth, Gehrig or Mantle or Jackson?
Andy Pettitte has the most wins ever in the postseason, is somebody actually going to tell me he was a better playoff pitcher than Whitey Ford or Bob Gibson?
As someone who has tried to catch just about all post season games, I believe you have to take some of what these announcers say with a grain of salt. Some are vanilla, some can’t even remember players names (I’m talking to you, McCarver) and some really go out on a limb with some of their analysis.
srt: I agree… TBS PBP announcers have been bruuuuutal. Does Ernie Johnson even do baseball games until October?
It honestly makes me appreciate Gary Cohen so much more.
Give me a game called by Gary Cohen, Doc Emerik or Gus Johnson anyday
Well I guess Shoppach was an exception…LOL
I agree though most do say the right things as there is never a reason to burn a bridge you may need to cross again sometime later in life…
But in Beltran’s case I actually believe him!
He is the kind of guy who doesn’t really care where he plays he just loves to play the game and it is that spirit that makes him such a good player.
HI Jessep,
I agree with you that Beltran probably would not have stayed a Met for the same reasons why Wright and Dickey might not do so now – it was obvious at the time that the Mets were not taking the steps to remain a contender.
Had things been different prior to spring training, 2011 – had we over the winter sought out more than just the “inexpensive” players (as Sandy alluded to) that could only give a 50 percent return in performance – in the pen and for the back of our starting rotation – made it clear the money not used for Reyes would be used for other players, kept KRod (by the way, he was arrested for domestic violence once again last month), etc. I think Beltran would have wanted to stay for another two years.
And the fact that as we were closing in on the wild card we were sellers in 2011 and not buyers IMHO severed the relationship between us and Carlos even if he wasn’t traded.
Honestly…
I think the Wilpons threatening to tear up his contract for getting a surgery he needed THEN Jeff Wilpon leaking the Walter Reed story 8 months later were the nails in that coffin
No player on earth would want to come back to an organization that did him that dirty
This.
Also, the fact that Carlos waived his no trade clause to get out of town is another indicator that he had no qualms about leaving – especially since it was his choice. And probably no intention of re-signing here as a free agent even if the Mets had the money to do so, which they clearly did not.
Honestly…I think Beltran became privy to the details preventing the Mets from being competitive on the free-agent market…
And I do believe Reyes became privy to that as well…there were comments initially over the winter where he said he was hurt…but he said he now empathizes and understands why the mets were not able to make an offer.
as much as i get on the wilpons case….i really think that they were banking on the madoff money being there…and now that it isnt…there is a domino effect
this is what happens when u build a business on Bullsh*t
I don’t think we realize the impact of the two collapses and then the devastating injuries and poor performances since 2009 either. The Wipons didn’t account for declining attendance when they dished out those contracts and built the new stadium. Jason Bay was basically the last straw.
its not just the declining attendance…
they no longer have the safety net of getting 12-18% guarenteed returns on Bernie’s money….
they were taking deferred salary…throwing into the bernie accounts…then paying back the players and pocketing the difference…
so say they are paying bobby bo 1 mil per year for 25 years…they were MAKING 4 mil per year…and giving Bobby Bo 1 mil..and the public says they are the dummies…they were laughing to the bank…
NOW…they have to pay Bobby Bo 1 mil per year for 25 years…but they arent making 4 mil per year on those accounts anymore…
They had a bunch of their MET business entangled with Bernie Madoff…now that the smoke has cleared…they are trying to find ways to make up the difference…
at the end of the day…their window to fix this situation and become profitable so they can put money back into the pool that supports the small market teams is shrinking by the minute..
Notice that Bud Selig in October 2010…basically forces the Mets to have Sandy take over and help them get out of this mess…
then he gives them a loan…
then he gives them an extension…
then he gives ANOTHER loan…and doesnt tell the rest of the owners…
THEN in May 2012, he awards the stumbling bumbling Wilpons a 2013 all-star game…which is basically a windfall of cash…
Selig is desperately trying to help the wilpons get back up off the ground…
Selig was the same guy who killed the Doubleday sale to Cablevision
Selig has been in cahoots with the Wilpons FOR YEARS…and other league owners are not happy with this..
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2002/08/Issue-221/Franchises/Doubleday-Fires-Back-At-Wilpon-With-Valuation-Countersuit.aspx?hl=MLB%20Labor&sc=0
At the end of the day..
Their $430 million loan on the team is due in 2014.
SNY, is also heavily leveraged, to the tune of $450 million, a loan that must be repaid in 2015.
And the Mets’ Citi Field bond payments leapt from $19 million last year to $43.7 million.
Not to mention the deferred contracts that they REFUSE to talk about…
or the fact that their Madoff money is no longer there…
Welcome to the future…
The thought never occurred to me that Pagan would be worth a first round pick as these new rules are kind of confusing. Thanks for posting them. It does make the Pagan trade look even worse than what it was. I’m assuming Ramirez and Torres will be non tendered?
I should have heeded the warning of my friends when I started commenting here a couple of months ago. The owner of this site is obviously more concerned with traffic than he is readers who are attacked even for leaving something as simple as data. I wouldn’t dare share an opinion here because I see how those are dealt with by the regulars here. This site isn’t Metsmerized it’s Demonized.
Brendan: You’ll note above I did apologize to you if it came off that I was attacking you.
I was merely responding to the fangraphs data and dollar figure you provided. Nowhere did I say anything about you or attack you.
I thought you provided an interesting discussion point, so I responded. That’s all that happened or was meant to happen.
I accept, but this was the third time this happened to me in a short time. When I defended the move to pickup Shoppach I was attacked unmercifully here. All I said was it didn’t cost us prospects to get him and he was an upgrade over Nickeas. I never make outlandish statement or post extreme views and opinions. But even when you simply assert relevant information it’s still reason to get torpedoed here.
Brendan, lemme welcome you to MMO, this site is the best Mets blog there is, don’t let one person who is known as a FDB make you think that everyone in here is an AH. please, feel free to comment anytime you want in here and do not let the comment of one person influate your thoughts, we’re all free to express ourselves in here, i am just shocked that the person who attacked you doesn’t get called out more often publicly, after all, he’s a “WRITER” in here and should be able to let others have their opinions as well..
But hey, with him is either he’s right or you’re wrong
Alex you do realize that you or one of your “group” were most likely the ones to criticize him for approving of the Shoppach trade.
I don’t remember anyone complaining about Shoppach himself only the fact that we gave away a guy that was heralded as a sign that things were so much better and the type of player we would see this FO pick all the time only to see him traded for a guy who really isn’t all that good in the grand scheme of things.
All of the cntroversy with Shoppach was about if he was a cancer or not due to his parting shots at the Sox once he left….
Just because you don’t curse or use derogatory words doesn’t mean you don’t offend people, you do it all the time, and as soon as somebody knew comes in here and they disagree with you, you treat them like dirt, yet somehow you still in here being admin and a writer for the site.. yeah, great way to welcome new bloggers in here you ____
LOL, who are you talking to here buddy?
hey Brendan – In every walk of life you’ll have people who disagree with you no matter what. We cannot change that here. The HOPE is that people who disagree with you do so in a respectful manner, not in verbal assaults or name calling etc.
I don’t know who attacked you for the Shoppach remarks (I know it wasn’t me) – so if they don’t apologize, I will for them. Even though I’d bet whatever they said is far different than my reply to you.
I was merely trying to comment on what you brought to the table. Not an attack. You’ll see people try to drag other users name through the mud – and that is what it is.
There are thousands of readers out there, allowing a small handful to ruin your experience here just isn’t worth it.
“The HOPE is that people who disagree with you do so in a respectful manner”
Which is what you didn’t do….
Except if you look at what I wrote, I ASKED Brendan if that stat fell in line with his views of Pagan.
“awesome. So does that mean you think he’s worth that much $? I sure don’t. This is why I don’t really care what a players “war” or projected $ value is. It’s totally unrealistic. I’ll promise you this. If somebody signs Angel Pagan to a multi-year deal worth $15m+ per year, they will regret it. You can take that to the bank.”
Tell me what is disrespectful about engaging him in a conversation regarding something he posted? If you take out the context that OTHERS attacked him in the past, then this wouldn’t be seen as an attack.
We don’t need Brendan’s post to be a political storyline to get an agenda across against other users. So let it go.
He felt it was an attack, I apologized and assured him that is not how it was meant. I’d bet the people he refers to regarding Shoppach, did not do that.
Continuing to discuss it when you weren’t involved is merely trying to make it a big deal. Just let it go and move along.
To try to be as fair as possible, I think beginning the comment with “awesome” gave the impression of snarky and put the guy on defense from the beginning.
And to be fair as possible it sure wasn’t the worst example of what happens around here….
but it is aa example of how these enemy posts get started.
Don’t be TRS, even you have notice how much of an ___________ this guy is..
Alex I am not getting involved in a petty dispute between adults. I did that by accident last time.
I must say, with is postseason numbers (Regular Season as well) being as good as they are, is CARLOS BELTRAN a HOF??
Good question Alex but does it go here? LOL.
Uhhh, if you do not wanna answer then don’t.. IMHO he is, the guy is a clutch performer who was mistreated by NY Fans, including many on this site.. I’d take this guy 10x over a certain overrated choker who gets a lot of love just because he’s good looking..
Because he’s good looking………………….where do you come up with this?
Alex you goofy non-coherent reply using friend… LOL.
I am saying that this is a good question but shouldn’t be posted in the middle of a conversation about Jessep. LOL.
Make it a new post at the bottom. I don’t mind responding to it. When have I ever not given my opinion on something
Kay, maybe it has something to do with the big ugly growth on Beltran’s face?
TRS – I just find it insulting, in general, when people assume that opinions are drawn on superficial qualities. Unfortunately it does happen (by what I call pretend fans) but it sets up real female sports fans back centuries. Using broadstrokes to assume everyone judges a player like this is one of those things that gets under my skin……….
With that being said, sans the mole, (which I wonder why he’s never had removed, especially en light of the whole Niese nosejob) Beltran is FAR better looking anyhow! hahahahahah
Kay I wouldn’t get twisted over it. It isn’t an insult to women that he’s after. It’s much deeper than that.
‘…gets a lot of love just because he’s good looking..’
What? hahahaha
Funniest thing I ever heard. Not unless you believe the majority of Met fans on MMO are teenage girls.
You are correct TRS!
fair enough – it wasn’t meant to be anything toward Brendan merely pointing out that FanGraphs telling me Angel Pagan was worth $21m is ridiculous.
Which is why I ensured Brendan of my intent after he referenced his views on my response.
Great! Lets consider it a lesson lerned and be done with it then!
Jessep, check your email.
Yep Awesome…
How many pounds of Sarcasm was loaded into that one word?
It’s your sarcasm and smugness that makes people want to give it back to you…
Something I have tried to say to you for months.
Metsie, and whoever else: I’m going to try to make myself as clear as I can.
This was a blog about Angel Pagan & Carlos Beltran. There have been very few comments about the written opinions of the subject. A user felt one of my responses was an attack on him – I apologized and assured him it wasn’t meant to be – he “accepted.”
Right then it should have gone BACK to the topic of the post. That wasn’t an invitation for anybody who has ever had a problem with me to state their case as misguided as it may be by some.
This is not a blog written about whether or not you like Jessep. Nobody else was involved in that exchange – and it was handled between us before the rest decided to interject.
All you’re doing by continuing the discussion about ME is doing exactly what Brendan is talking about.
Now move along, and if you want to talk about me I suggest you go sit on the domain JessepIsABoob.com or whatever – but take it off this thread.
Jessep, seriously learn from your previous encounters and move on. Don’t worry about what those guys think.
Metsie October 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm .
Great! Lets consider it a lesson lerned and be done with it then!
And who is perpetuating it now?
Too many people begrudge our ballplayers once they leave even the good ones. I never got that. I wished Tom Seaver and Mike Piazza well after they were gone, as I did Darling, Kent, and especially Tug McGraw and David Cone who were two of my favorites. Maybe it’s just human nature, but I never got caught up in any of it and never could understand it. I guess the myth is true, there’s no such thing as a friendly divorce.
Glad they did well, but this milk has been spilled long ago. Time to move on.
“When Angel Pagan was here, most Mets fans disliked the way he played the game.”
Since when was this a popularity contest?
the same met fans that disliked the way he played the game were loving him in 2009-2010…
This is NY…the same Yankee fans that LOVED Nick Swisher are now booing him relentlessly..
“What have you done for me lately” should replace New York, New York as the theme song at any NY sports venue
Damaja. with the way things are looking, this doesn’t look like NY, more like KC or pittsburgh…
Alex with payrolls of 140M and 95M give or take, how do you back up a claim of being like KC or Pitt? Those 2 combined didn’t spend what the Mets did in 2011 and were 30M below them this year.
The problem isn’t, and I think both sides can agree to an extent, how much money they are spending but what they are spending the money on. From anything to FFF to Bay to Johan their money is not currently spent effectively.
The problem is the bad contracts are still here and have been added to….
The few players that were worth the money they were getting paid were all let go.
well it costs NOTHING to release/bench Bay…
thats poor decision making…
FF is a moot point…the pen issues the mets mainly had was the bridge GETTING to FF
Johan was signed in 2007…to a deal that had 30 mil in deferred money payable in 7 years…
Johan for most of his tenure as a NYM played just fine…to bash the contract 5 years later is 20/20 hindsight at its worst.
Johan from 2008-2009-2010 had one of the best ERA’s in ALL OF BASEBALL…playing for teams that had crappy bullpens and even worse defenses…AND still produce stud numbers…u deserve that contract..
had Johan put those numbers up for the Phils or Yanks, he has a WS ring on..
JDD, are you saying however that as currently constructed the Mets are anywhere near maximizing their 95M payroll? The money is not distributed effectively plain and simple. It’s not the amount of money being spent it’s what it is spent on.
Not when half of that 95 MIL is tied up with just 2 players for 2013.
Releasing Bay doesn’t solve half that problem. Still have to pay him.
The 2010 Giants had almost half their payroll wrapped up in Barry Zito and Aaron Rowand…
2 guys that didnt see the light of day come playoff time…
2010 payroll distribution
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ts76JOioApkb62aMqSgLT7A&output=html
yeah…that whole theory of u cant pay X player a certain % of the overall team salary is garbage..
esp when the bulk of ur productive players are in their pre-arb/arb years
For example…
If the mets field a team with 7 position players and 3 SP and 4 relievers in their PRE-ARB years…
and they sign a free-agent to a market level contract…..and resign a player who will be a free-agent soon …those 2 guys will make up the lions share of the payroll….if they are unproductive…the answer is to REPLACE those players …and use the fact that you have many pre-arb players who are productive to your advantage…
the mets dont do that…
they make a bad signing which is mistake 1…
then they cant admit the sunk cost…which amplifies mistake 1 and creates more issues..
JDD, are you saying however that as currently constructed the Mets are anywhere near maximizing their 95M payroll? T
Its not a 95 mil payroll though…
its at least 115 mil…
but 75 mill of that 115 mil is going to 5 players that are here…and about 6 players who are no longer here..
the solution would be to:
1 – Come straight with the fans about ALL the deferred contracts from 1995-Present that are really counted against the payroll…
2 – Have a clear and consistent plan for moving the mets towards the future…
(a) u cant have Torres and Jason Bay taking away valuable playing time from Kirk, Jordany and Duda….and say you are building for the future…
(b) u cant hold onto trading pieces like Byrdak and Hairston…in a meaningless season…and say you are building for the future…
3 – Stop using the media as a way of dealing with players. everytime a player is about to leave the mets, we hear 100 stories about how bad they are in the clubhouse or some other pet peeve the manager has with them…even when the manager denies it…its poor public relations…and it only will scare away future draft picks and free-agents from coming to our club
We keep talkingabout how much is tiedup in two players but the trut of the matter is if Jason Bay would just be the Power hitting RH bat he should be no one would really be complaining about the money tied up in Bay and Santana….
Santana hasn’t earned his keep the last two years but how could he when he was injured or rehabbing?
If he comes back strong next year who is to say the money spent on him is wasted?
Truth of the matter it’s only Bay’s money that is being wasted here and if they just bit the bullet, stop playing him hoping he does something to unwaste it, and spent 15 Mil more to get a guy who is a REAL RH Power bat to replace him, we would not have had the season we just had or more notably the bad second half.
The main problem with this team is the lack of a complementary RH power bat to go with Wright….
And the only solution people seem to have is to trade the only RH power bat we DO have instead!
Wait…I thought Scott Hairston was a free-agent..
You keep saying this. I would like to know what power RH bats you think the Mets can pursue considering the $$ they are willing to spend or the other players major/minor they have you could trade for one?
Why should I limit my search to what a cheap bastard GM is willing to spend?
Why should spending be limited at all? Does the MLB have a salary cap all of a sudden?
I don’t accept the entire premise that they can’t spend! it’s just bull they keep feeding you to excuse the Moneyball plan that they know will never fly if admitted to to a NYC audience!
It theoretically could cost the Mets big time if they release Jason Bay. His contract calls for a vesting for 2014 at @17MM if he has 600PA’s in 2013. I think the thought process is, knowing their luck they cut Bay, he goes to a small club, makes a comeback gets his 600 PA’s and then the Mets have to pay him again in 2014. Better to keep him, platoon him at best and then cut him at the All-Star Break when it becomes impossible to reach the 600. Given his horrific past performance the Mets cannot be accused of bad faith/collusion as there is no justification at this point for starting Bay.
The team that picks him up would assume the risk of his option vesting.
I’m not sure either is true there…
If we cut him we pay him for next year only. The Option is dead because he won’t get those innings.
If someone else signs him it’s as if he signed a brand new contract and the only affect is they can pay him a minimum amount that gets deducted from what we owe him.
In both cases the option would be dead as we will have terminated the contract.
If he gets those innings somewhere else it will be under the new contract not ours.
Metsie is right. If Bay is cut prior to the option – the option is dead and the Mets are technically buying out the contract. They can pay the buyout in the year following the release – but that would depend on the contract’s language.
Basically if the Mets release Jason Bay it is costing them at minimum $19million. If the Pirates pick him up after the Mets release him, they are not held to the option whether it vests or not.
I don’t think that’s true. If released the team that picks him up pays the league minimum and the Mets are responsible for the contract which would include a vesting option.
Old School: No because when you release a player from his contract, you are terminating the option and thus buying it out.
If the Mets release Jason Bay – they pay him what he would have been guaranteed only and the rest of the contract is officially voided. Thus they’d pay him his $16mil salary plus a $3m buyout fee.
I stand corrected and thanks for the correction. So no real reason to keep him.
Literally the only reason is a HOPE that he shows some form of life early and you can at least get something back for him even if you have to eat his contract. But the chances of that are so slim
AT this point I don’t think even a performance to rival Babe Ruth would entice anyone to take him.
And any performance uptick that could would immediatly cause suspicion of juicing (at worse) or give him the knock of only being good when his contract is up.
No one would touch him in either case.
What is more likely is they will go through ST and see what he does only to cut him before the season starts.
Only thing that might inspire an earlier cut is the Rule 5 needs for roster spots.
I must say this, just because you don’t curse doesn’t mean you’re not insulting the person you’re debating baseball with.. i am not fan of saberstats, however, everyone is entitle to their opinion, whether they’re right or wrong this is a free country, and in this blog everyone is allow to express them, often then not i am part of the problem, but i keep those discussion with the same people.. SRT, TRS, heck, even donal, but at some GD point Joe D must realize how much jesseP is damaging this site.. he’s a person that rubs a lot of people wrong and has had problems with many people here during his time. i do not know of any conversation that has been placed between both of them, but damn, at some point he should tell him to at least cool off with the new people that come here. with that guy is i know more than you, i’m right and you’re wrong and no looking back..
Giants would be fools not to give Pagan a qualifying offer, and Pagan would be a fool to accept it. The Giants and Pagan will be big winners. San Fran will have two first round picks, and Pagan will get a 2-year $26 million deal with a $13 million option in my opinion. He was in the top ten of all MLB center fielders and he’ll get paid like one.
Even if Ramirez pitched for us like he could, it would still have been a matter of giving up so much for so little since most of us saw Torres as 4th outfielder. The only the way the trade would have been a steal for us had Torres repeated his one only good season (2012 can’t be considered a tremendously bad year for Andres since he only hit eleven points below his lifetime batting average anyway).
As others have said, it was basically getting two players for the cost of one. Since it seemed the Mets were determined to re-build instead of competing, one wonders why Sandy didn’t focus on getting some younger prospects for Angel instead as many are contemplating for DW. I’m sure they were out there.
You still act like we traded this Pagan instead of the crappy one from last year. Stinks that he had a great year but they wanted nothing to do with paying him that amount to produce like 2011 again.
Hi TR,
Last I looked, that crappy guy of 2011 had prior seasons of .306 and .290 and even in that “crappy” year his bat was worth almost one run per game and nor can 2012 be considered a career year.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paganan01.shtml
If you want to say they should have expected a rebound in 2012, I am ok with that. However 2011 stats would not have been worth 2012 pay. He was rumored by many nonMets sites as a non tender candidate.
The guy had an OPS under .700 in 2011.
Hi TR,
Pagan is making $4.85 million this season – not much of an expense.
But since it was decided to rebuild the club, we would have done much better going the route for prospects that could possibly really help down the road rather than fill-ins. Can’t believe there were no teams unwilling to part with one or two prospects for Angel but can also perceive the front office not wanting to further disenchant the fan base (i.e., the buying public) by trading regulars for prospects while saying they were not going to give up on the upcoming 2012 season.
But with this ownership being in the financial state it is in, we have to seriously question the motives of most every move beyond it’s impact on the team now and in the future. Sad, but that is what is has come down to. Only a hunch but I suspect privately Sandy would rather trade both Wright and Dickey than re-sign them so not to spend the money.
Joey, you are still missing the part that many sites that weren’t Met related had him as a potential non-tender. You aren’t getting prospects for that.
Also a guy that had an OPS under .700 at almost 5M? How can that be cost effective?
Hi TR,
Zack Wheeler wasn’t the only prospect being offered for a less than three month rental.
What does that have to do with anything?
And your missing the part where being wrong and a fool isn’t ok or acceptable just because there are a lot of other fools who agreed with you!
The GM of a team is supposed to know and be able to evaluate talent better than others.
He made a trade and got burned! Doesn’t matter what he though Ramirez and Torres were capable of he was WRONG about it!
Doesn’t matter what people thought of Pagan at the time they were WRONG about it!
What you should be concerned with was WHY you were wrong, what about your evaluation proccess led you to the WRONG answer…
And how can you change it so that you don’t get taken or mistaken in your evaluations again!
Anyone who thought Pagan was not worth having was wrong!
And the excuse your applying here could easily be used for Omar when he signed all those guys you say were paid too much and didn’t do anything!
What did everyone think about Bay at the time?
Does that make Bay a good signing?
I wouldnt be surprised if Pagan goes to the Bronx….