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• srt October 16, 2012 at 8:35 am

  ‘For all his numbers, it was only his third since 2001 with a winning record, which could make the Mets wondering if it was all done with smoke and mirrors’

  You cannot include Dickey’s record as a conventional pitcher with that since he became strictly a knuckle ball pitcher. I see this all the time and still don’t understand why it’s done.

  Dickey’s worth right now should be judged solely on his record since becoming a knuckle baller.
  Anyone who thinks he’s done it all with smoke and mirrors is not paying attention.
  • TRS86 October 16, 2012 at 8:44 am

    My thing is that you have to give to get. Dickey has been amazing but his trade value to the Mets MIGHT be more than his value to the Mets going forward. Again, I have no idea because I don’t know the offers he will receive in trade nor the contract demands. At least we know that every option will be on the table. If Dickey can get you a stud OF or a guy like Andrus and you can slide Tejada to 2B, you have to consider it.
    • srt October 16, 2012 at 8:51 am

      I’m sure this FO will be listening to any and all trade offers.

      I also think teams are going to weigh giving up a good, young player for a pitcher that’s going to be 38 next season, no matter what kind of year he had. Not saying it’s impossible, especially if a team has an option to slide someone else into the slot they might be thinking of giving up.
    • jessep October 16, 2012 at 9:10 am

      hey TRS – I still believe Dickey’s trade value is a huge question mark. I believe there are teams that wouldn’t come near him. Some teams have no faith in a knuckler, pair that with his age and you have an unusual trade market for a potential cy young winner.

      Also, I think Dickey knows that an open market for him may not be the best thing. I think he’s a very special case and I think both sides understand that which is why I expect a short deal like 2 years only more $ than his previous deal.
      • stick October 16, 2012 at 2:10 pm

        but, he is cheap.

        not often you can pick up a reigning cy young for $5mill, and not even have to worry about getting stuck if he doesn’t keep it up.

        teams would probably be a lot more leery if he had a career year at an advanced age, but he was signed for 5 more years at big $$!
        • jessep October 16, 2012 at 2:23 pm

          that is where we disagree. If you want value for Dickey, I can’t fathom why a team would give you a big haul for a guy they aren’t guaranteed a 2014 season from.

          It just doesn’t make sense. Cheap in 2013 yes, but in 2014? what is the team’s guarantee at that point?
          • TRS86 October 16, 2012 at 2:25 pm

            Keep in mind they also would obtain compensation IF they offer him a qualifying offer which I am assuming they would.
            • jessep October 16, 2012 at 2:28 pm

              Right but I still don’t buy that a comp pick adds to his value so much that you’d get a big return on him. I think you’re going to see less and less “rental” trades because of the new CBA. And yes having Dickey on your roster all year technically gets them a pick – the same risk is there. Is it worth giving up a lot today knowing u may not have that player on your roster tomorrow?

              I’m not saying Dickey is untradeable, I’m saying his value is hurt by a lot of things such as age, repertoire, contract.
    • MetsWatchman October 16, 2012 at 9:25 am

      TRS86……Dickey has been amazing but his trade value to the Mets MIGHT be more than his value to the Mets going forward.

      This is what I’ve been saying all along. A trade has got to be explored right now during the off season when his value is at its highest. He could be a full one year rental to a team at a very reasonable option year salary. If they wait till the deadline his value will go down and the team may want to make the trade contingent on them negotiating an extension with him, further complicating the trade.

      If the Mets move forward with Dickey, then I think extreme caution should be taken in what they offer him. Overall I don’t think his tenure with the Mets has been smoke and mirrors. But I do believe his dominating performance this past year probably will not be repeated. Also, consistent effectiveness of a knukleballer usually does not last over the long haul. And, when they’re on, they’re very good. But when that ball ain’t knukling, they’re very bad. He’s 37 y/o, all I’m saying is exhibit caution with a contract.
      • jessep October 16, 2012 at 9:31 am

        hey MetsWatchman: Here’s exactly why I think his trade value is LOW

        “Also, consistent effectiveness of a knuckleballer usually does not last over the long haul. And, when they’re on, they’re very good. But when that ball ain’t knukling, they’re very bad. He’s 37 y/o, all I’m saying is exhibit caution with a contract.”

        I agree 100% with everything you just said. That’s why I think his trade value to other GMs won’t be as high as we think because if we think this is true – then how many GM’s think like this?
        • MetsWatchman October 16, 2012 at 11:49 am

          Yes I also agree with you about other GM’s…..but I think they’ll just be reluctant to negotiate an extention with a trade. However, a full one year rental at the $5 mil option is a gamble that will pique a lot of interest with him coming off the year he had.
          • stick October 16, 2012 at 2:13 pm

            teams that are short SP always have to scramble to pick up an arm to fill out the rotation.

            and what they usually end up with is someone like Marquis for $8-10 mill. Or a relaimation project like Pelf or Young for a couple mill.

            so, the chance to get an Ace level pitcher coming off a cy young year at 5 mill IMO is going to attract a lot of bidders.
        • TRS86 October 16, 2012 at 2:27 pm

          Jessep, think teams like LA, Texas, etc that are built to win now and really don’t have the chips or left over cash to get a true under contract Ace. If Dickey is on the market he takes the top of the list for a contending team, if they get over the knuckleball stigma which you already discussed.
• Alex68 October 16, 2012 at 8:35 am

  Dickey said his re-signing with the Mets is largely contingent on whether they also bring back David Wright”
  Not sure whether one player can impact another player. Wright wanted reyes all along, and publically said so, how that worked out? Yeah.. Quite frankly i don’t think SA gives 2 _____ about what RA Dickey thinks or wants.

  The two, on and off the field, represent the Mets and they would be taking a dramatic public relations hit if they traded or let them walk after 2013″
  Well, while you’re right, so did reyes, and again, how did that work out for him and the mets? These people at the helm just don’t care about public hits. they still getting paid.

  “An argument can be made if the Mets don’t see themselves as contenders next summer they could continue their rebuilding by dealing them for prospects. Any such deal, however, would be contingent on the other team being allowed to negotiate with them before making a trade. It would also be an admission they are a long way from being competitive”
  They are a long way.. signing wright to a long term deal would make us the same team we were this year at best..
  • stick October 16, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    “These people at the helm just don’t care about public hits. they still getting paid.”

    I half agree. They aren’t being driven by PR concerns, but not because they have their paycheck, but because they are trying to build a team that can be a sustained playoff caliber team for years in a row, even if it takes a few years of building to get there.
    • TRS86 October 16, 2012 at 2:27 pm

      Yeah, one of the good things about this group is I finally feel they MAY be making decisions that are the best for the team instead of what the fan wants…. the adult in the room theory.
      • Metsie October 16, 2012 at 3:04 pm

        Please list the decisions you think reflect this ADULT theory….
    • Metsie October 16, 2012 at 3:03 pm

      “but because they are trying to build a team that can be a sustained playoff caliber team for years in a row”

      Which moves have they made towards that goal?
      What are they building?
      I see a lot of tearing down in preperation to rebuilding but other than Wheeler what have they actually rebuilt?

      What moves have they made to start down that long term competitive path?
  • Alex68 October 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Stick and TRS,thanks for reading and commenting!! however i will disagree on something, they’re not telling the fan base exactly that they’re rebuilding the team, instead they wanna hold on to certain players to keep atracting fans to the seats and sell us the notion that we’re not rebuilding when it’s clearly they are.. so they’re lying from the get go, so that BS about building a team to be playoffs caliber every year needs a bit more than the crap they’re putting on the field.. Sell as high as you can with dickey and wright, tell us we’re rebuilding for 2014 and beyond and stop BS and insulting our intelligence..
    • TRS86 October 16, 2012 at 2:38 pm

      It really depends on how you look at it. One Dickey and Wright aren’t signed yet. Two there are different ways to rebuild a team. You do not have to tear it down to the dirt in order to rebuild it. Three, why should I care what a GM says his plans are to the public? I am a big boy, I understand that they aren’t placed there to tell the fans the truth. No GM does that.
• METS62FAN October 16, 2012 at 9:22 am

  JOHN, I TAKE GREAT EXCEPTION TO THE FOLLOWING,”R.A. Dickey had been a journeyman with a trick pitch his entire career, ”
  AS ROBERT ALLEN WAS CERTAINLY NOT A KNUCKLER HIS “ENTIRE” CAREER,ONLY THE SUCCESSFUL PORTION THEREOF.

  AS THE PITCH IS MORE A DYING ART THAN “TRICK” IT’S EFFECT ON YOUNGER & YOUNGER OPPONENTS WILL NOT DECREASE AS DICKEY IS CURRENTLY THE LAST PRACTICIONER ACTIVE ON THE MOUND. AS EACH PITCH FOLLOWS IT’S OWN UNIQUE TRAJECTORY IT NULLIFIES THE TYPICAL & PREDOMINANT HITTING PREPARATIO TOOL (VIDEO STUDY)
  IN MY ESTIMATION IT IS NO MORE A “TRICK” PITCH THAN THE SPLITFINGER WAS TO BRUCE SUTTER OR CUTTER TO RIVERA..
  IT CERTAINLY SHOULD ENHANCE HIS VALUE MUCH MORE THAN UNDERMINE IT SUTTER HAD HIS SPLITTER, RIVERA, THE CUTTER & McGRAW HIS SCROOGIE. ALL ARE/ WERE EFFECTIVE CLOSERS WHILE DICKEY’S STRENGTH IS THE REPEATABILITY OF HIS PITCH(100+ TIMES/GAME) ALONG WITH ITS’ UNIQUE BEHAVIORS LENDING IT A HUMILIATION FACTOR THAT UNDERMINES A YOUNG SLUGGER’S CONFIDENCE(SEE BRYCE HARPER)
• Metsie October 16, 2012 at 1:18 pm

  Can we please stop calling the Knuckleball a Trick Pitch?

  It’s no more a trick than a changeup, slider or a sinker is!

  Most pitches are predicated on getting a certain type of spin mechanics to get the ball to break one way or another.

  The Knuckleball is merely a pitch that relies on little to no spin!

  No different as far as spin mechanics go as a slider or curve is in that regard.
  It’s not a trick, there is no magic wand the only reason why it’s rarely used is because most people can’t seem to handle the grip needed to produce little to no spin thats all!

  Just as some pitchers can’t seem to handle the grip in other pitches they throw because they can’t get the ball over the plate.