Also, yes, your question about who we could have signed was a set up. You wanted me to answer that question just so you can say “your doing the same thing t agee did!!!”.

Let me remind you that the reason the whole thing with t agee started was with the draft. He would go back years and years and pick out every good player and say we should have drafted them. He was so idealistic that, if Mets actually did what he said, we would have fielded an allstar team of completly homegrown talent.I think it’s pretty clear to see the difference between what he used to do and what I said the other day.

Another difference was that he would bring up players we should have signed voluntarily. What I did was answer a question you ASKED ME. You asked me who was a good under the radar signing and I answered. That’s it. If I brought up on my own out of nowhere, ” we should have signed Fernando Rodney!!! How can this FO be so stupid”, then yes, I would be doing the same thing t agee did. But, I didn’t, all I did was answer a simple question that you asked me.

I have no memory of asking t agee a question, have him answer it, and then call him a 2nd guesser for it. If I ever did that, and I don’t think I did, then I would have been wrong for doing so.

If what your saying is true, that we have no talent and it would have been almost impossible to improve, then why the hell didn’t he clean house and start from scratch? If he KNEW the team couldn’t improve, then he should have traded every valuable piece we had into prospects and young players. He didn’t. Instead he did nothing, except for Wheeler. Who’s great and all, but if your trying to rebuild an entire orginazation, you need a hell of a lot more than one guy.

So to me, whether you think this team sucked and couldn’t improve, or was decent and could have improved, the job they did so far(and “so far” is still a key word here), is awful.

I agreed with you that scaping the bottom of the barrel could not work – and as we know, it didn’t. There wasn’t no margin of error with the players he got – it was a forgone conclusion and that proved itself when it was the players he did inherit were doing it all on their own through mid season and that failure was going to catch up with them due that supporting cast scraping from the bottom of the barrel.

There was no choise but to put one’s hand in the bottom of that barell.

Especially on the position player side. We have potential for some but it’s still just that potenial. Duda is a DH. The rest of his game is just to weak to even consider him a potential impact player. And he has a lot of maturing as a hitter if he’s ever going to be an impact DH. I’ve seen enough of him know where I can safely say he’s not for the NL. Murphy is not the difference maker you said he was. Thole just doesn’t belong in the major leagues. Parnell doesn’t belong in NY. Kirk is a platoon player/4th OFer. He doesn’t just struggle against lefties, he can’t touch them. His bat is too slow, he gets beat by 90 MPH fastballs regularly and doesn’t have any one tool that jumps put at you. Even Ike who I happen to like has major holes in his swing, looks pathetic against LHP and if he’s going to remain stubborn then he has no shot at being an impact player. He’ll end up being a guy who hits majestc HR’s but doesn’t do a whole lot else. And he was nothing close to being a Gold Glover that I keep hearing people say here. He’s been below average this year. He’s the one guy who has a chance to be but if I had a gun to my head I’d say his upside is Adam LaRoche.

I just think you overrate the system as a whole. From a position standpoint the farm is weak. The strength of the farm is the pitching. Flores is the only guy above A ball that I think will be an impact bat but he still doesn’t have a position. Marte, Puello have shown very little improvement. They’re young but i’m not sold on their skill sets. Lagares is another guy who’s most likely a 4th outfielder. He has no power. And he’s bulking up which means he most likely won’t be able to play CF at the next level and that’s where his bat profiles. Vaughn could be decent but another guy that I don’t see as an impact bat. Could be a decent player but not an impact player.

And before you pat yourself on the back for Gee can he pitch a full season. He had a good 1st half last year too but he wasn’t good at all after the allstar break. Tejada I love but again he’s just a nice, high IQ player. Not a big time player. I’m always praising Niese and I’m on the Harvey train too but I have to see more than 10 starts before I annoint him as a stud. He has to master that 3d pitch, you can get by with 2 pitches for so long. I’m confident he will but lets hold off with he I’m on the money with Harvey. I’ve seen these starts many times before by young pitchers and not turn out to be big time pitchers.

And for some reason you seem to think when I say the Mets have done a poor job developing impact over the last 20 years that it’s just a knock on Omar. It’s a knock on the Wilpons which I’ve stated many times. You think it’s irrelevent but the truth is the Wilpons have operated under the same philosphy with the draft with all their GM’s except last year. Adhere to slot recommendations and draft mosty college seniors with no leverage. The same scouts under Steve Phillips were the same scouts under Omar except for a handful of area scouts that Omar added.

Marlin Mcphail was hired by Steve Phillips, he’s the scout who scouted and signed Ty Wigginton, Bobby Parnell, Reese Havens, Josh Edgin, Matt Harvey and Cory Mazzoni to name a few. That’s 3 different GM’s that players he scouted were drafted by. Edwin Bryant Scouted and Signed Niese also a Phillips hire, Steve Leavitt another, scouted Duda. Mike Brown, scouted and signed Ike Davis. Same scouts, same ownership, same philosphy. That’s why I have little confidence in our system producing big time talent. More depth was produced during Omar’s tenure but at least 2 impact players came out of Phillips tenure. The only problem was nothing else was developed under his watch.

Hi Fonzie,

Wasn’t that the one point I agreed with you?

BY getting more than hust Wheeler for Three sent packing All Stars!

Omar did nothing in 2010 and I thought he did the right thing by not doing anything either. That team wasn’t good enough either and making a move for an unrealistic shot at a wildcard could’ve made things worse. My only point was that the team was in a similar situation to the last 2 years and no help came either. Selling would’ve been better than buying.

Hi Fonzie,

Will agree with you half way.

I don’t think Alderson inherited such a mess that a few key additions – instead of the inexpensive players he admitted he got – could have made the Mets a contender for the entire 2011 season.

As it was, the near dozen players he added did nothing but hurt the team and yet despite that group of “inexpensive” players, those that he “inherited” went on something like a 49-36 clip after a horrible 5-14 start. There is no question that had a better group of of players been acquired over the winter their overall record could have been much better than when it hit it’s peak. Better players obtained during the off season, combined without the subsequent getting rid of KRod and Beltran, and the team that played so well for so long (again, despite the mediocrity obtained by our GM) could have certainly held it’s own with St. Louis and Atlanta in that wild card race (the injuries to Niese and Murphy can’t count because they were unforeseen).

But I agree with you that when being forced to cut payroll at such record levels, it is indeed ridiculous to expect a team to improve. We didn’t realize it at the time but the signs were there for when help was needed in 2010 as we were fighting Atlanta for first place in the division, Omar did nothing as well. This is because the general manager might have changed but the owners – and their financial problems – didn’t.

Yeah that statement would be ridiculous if that was the statement I made. love how you twist the words around to help your arguement. twice in this thread alone.

How about what I actually said – When you inherit a mess like he did and are forced to cut payroll at record levels, to expect a team to improve is ridiculous. Now you change it to “Show signs” of improvement. They did “Show signs” of improvement they were 8 games over 500 no? How in Gods name are you getting better when you just cut 50 million dollars from payroll? It’s nearly impossible.

And if you’ve been reading my comments since the day I started commenting I said all along that he should’ve cleaned house the day he walked in the door. Trying to compete with that group by bringing in bottom of the barrel players wasn’t doing anything but delaying the rebuilding process.

I said it after 2008 that the team neaded to be ripped up. 2 choke jobs in a row should have been an alarming sign that that group was never going to get it done. Most people thought I was nuts and if not after 2008 then it should’ve been a no brainer after 2009. Instead we kept throwing good money after bad money and dug the hole even deeper. We could’ve gotten huge returns on Wright, Reyes and Beltran after 2008. We could’ve gotten a decent amount of prospects for Wright, Reyes and Pagan after 2010 and then the Beltran for Wheeler deal would’ve been the icing on the cake.

Why did they not sign half their picks? I don’t know. Maybe they like the 33 IFA’s they signed better. Who knows. They did spend a lot of money on IFA’s this year. And this past draft class was considered much weaker than last years when they signed 38 of their picks. Steve Phillips signed 25 out of 50 one year and when Agee mentioned it he got ripped a new one.

“The best part of your post is where you ask me a question, I answer try to answer it, and you attack me for it! Talk about a set up question, my god”

Really I attacked you? You can’t be serious. Where and how did I attack you. Set up question? What?

” Oh and his good signings have been according to you: A platoon player, a backup, a starter with 4.37 ERA 1.35 WHIP that spent half the season on the DL – Whoo hoo! And with Byrdack, because Sandy didn’t sign a 2nd lefty, it lead to him being overused and misused, and eventually he landed on the DL because of that.”

That’s what they were signed for. Bench! And they did a good job too. Young was signed for insurance and he did a good job. Are we the only team that didn’t have a 2nd lefty? Isn’t that what you always say in defense of your arguments. Other teams this and that. Yeah it’s Sandy’s fault Collins pitched Byrdak every day. Maybe, hope fully in the not too distant future Sandy can take on salary dumos too like Delgado and Santana and maybe he can sign a top free agent but right now he can’t.

And if your GM can’t win one more game than the tam he inherited in two years time it will take a hundred years before he can win two!

This team has gotten worse not better over the last 2 years!

Also, let’s not forget, you AGREED with me about our young talent. In my post about our young talent, you applauded me for it. So, it seems strange that you would take a shot at me saying “the players you thought were promising”, when you actually felt the same way i did.

And let’s not forget the players I was right on the money about – I was right about Niese, Tejada, Gee and Harvey but of course you don’t mention that. Also, the jury is still out on a lot of the other guys I talked about.

If team truly sucked, then why didn’t he clean house and start from scratch? Why is Wright still here? Why wasn’t Reyes traded for prospects? And worse yet, if he’s trying to rebuild, then why the hell do you not sign half your draft picks????

You either try to compete or you try to rebuild and the Mets are still doing niether. After two years we are STILL don’t have a direction. Is is that too much to ask too? A direction? You know fans like me these day are so spolied, they actually want their team to have a plan! That’s just so over the top, I know.

The best part of your post is where you ask me a question, I answer try to answer it, and you attack me for it! Talk about a set up question, my god.

Oh and his good signings have been according to you: A platoon player, a backup, a starter with 4.37 ERA 1.35 WHIP that spent half the season on the DL – Whoo hoo! And with Byrdack, because Sandy didn’t sign a 2nd lefty, it lead to him being overused and misused, and eventually he landed on the DL because of that.

Santana and Bay are the only bad contracts because he already got rid of the other bad contracts. Those 2 are impossible to move without eating all their money which does nothing to free up cash.

You are child that is incapable of having an adult debate. If someone disagrees with you, you just go on and on without making lucid point.

I have never said SA is my GM, never, you said that, you make that assumption based on absolutely nothing. Sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor that you can’t understand what other people write. You are part of a childish clique and thing its us against them. The act is getting old now.

I know you are but what am I…………..

Santana and Bay are the only contracts on the books that could be considered bad contracts!
And Funny they seem to be the only two we have yet to deal with!