21
2012
Players Not Happy With Terry’s Remarks, But Front Office Says He Will Be Back In 2013
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Updated 5:10 PM
In an update to this story, Mike Puma of the New York Post says the Mets front office told him that they remain committed to Terry Collins as their manager despite the team’s recent freefall.
He will not be fired at the end of this season.
Original Post 4:30 PM
One should always be careful what he says in anger, and Terry Collins may have really gotten himself into a deep hole after comments he made about the team quitting after last night’s 16-1 loss.
This afternoon at Citi Field, Collins told reporters he regrets making his comments about the team possibly quitting.
“So, as I sat there on the bench last night, I was saying, ‘What’s my next move?’ I thought maybe they need to know — everybody’s frustrated, but let’s just see who’s willing to rise up again and give it another shot. And so I probably did it the wrong way. But I believe in what we do here. We’re going to grind it out on a daily basis.”
Collins said his intention was to fire the team up and not to throw them under the bus or challenge their integrity which is how it came off to many including the players.
He said that after meeting with every player, he believes they are all equally as angry as he is with the way the season is ending.
However, this from Kevin Burkhardt…
This could be the beginning of something, or it could be nothing at all, but the last two times Collin’s lost his clubhouse it resulted in him eventually quitting or being dismissed after the season.
Collins’ antics were damaging last night. How damaging will remain to be seen.
We’ll keep an eye on this….
About the Author: Rob Johnson
109 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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With this team’s roster…could you even tell if they quit? They’re actually playing now the way they were expected to play all year.
Agreed. Even when Wright was over achieving I knew it wouldn’t last. Hope we sell high on Dickey and somewhere between high and low on Wright. Clean house, because they are all overpaid or unproductive or both!.
Collins was a bad hire then and he’s worse now. GET RID OF HIM.
Collins may have been a bad hire, but so was Alderson.
Bingo! Collins was a terrible hire. Alderson is an even worse hire because he wasn’t technically a hire. He was sent here by Selig in agreement with Wilpon. For that reason alone Alderson should be as villianized as Selig and Wilpon, but some fans love his jokes on Twitter. In fact they are three peas in the same pod. All three liars and all three not to be trusted.
What did you expect from alderson? Did you expect a world series? Sadly, this is exactly what the mets were all along, a team that can’ t hit and does not have a major league quality bullpen. If zack wheeler is all we get from alderson, that’s enough for me. Even getting a good first half out of these guys proves that terry can manage. It is not the managers fault that have of his bullpen and rotation got hurt. My overall point is that TC and alderson are not gonna be here when the mets get good again; but the are not doing a bad job getting us to there
I expected some improvement from Alderson is – Is that too much to ask? Look, we all get he didn’t come into a great situation, but he has managed to make it even worse!
Our records have gotten worse each year under Alderson – In 2010 our wpct was .488, in 2011 it was .475, and this year it’s .443. Also look at the quality of players that have left under Alderson: Reyes, Beltran and Pagan – Who has he brought in to replace their production? We are simply a WORSE team now that we were when he took over.
He got Wheeler and that’s nice, but in two years if all you’ve done is brought in one good prospect and let two very good players and 1 good one leave, that’s not enough.
As for the pen, it’s hit fault it’s as bad as it is. Francisco sucks. Ramirez sucks. Carrasco was awful. Batista was awful – His awful bullpen decsions is why the Mets have the worst pen in the major leagues.
The era of alderson and collins should not be judged by winning percentage. And Wheeler is not one good prospect, he is a top five prospects in all of baseball. I believe that we have improved in the one area that actually matters, our minor league talent. Lets be real, the mets are an aging team that does not have a lot of money (which is the Wilpon’s fault not aldersons’). So how do teams get better in that situation, PROSPECTS, not by signing free agents. You made a great point about how the bullpen stinks, which is alderson’s fault. But does 2012 really matter in the grand scheme of things. Patients is the key, I’m a met fan from outside of philly, and when i get crap about the mets, i just say, wait until we get to 2015, then who will be laughing.
If it’s about prospects than why didn’t they sign half their picks? They let a very talented 2nd round pick go unsigned even though he wasn’t demanding unreasonable amounts of money.
If it’s about PROSPECTS then that draft was inexcusable. And as good of a prospect Wheeler is, he’s still just one guy.
The minor league talent has gotten better, you’re right, but Wheeler aside,a lot of that is from what was left behind from the pervious FO.
All they have done in two years is make the major league team worse added one good prospect. Sorry, but I wanted/expected more than that in two years.
And notcie the dates that we have to wait for always keep changing? Not too long ago it was 2014. Now it’s 2015. Next year it will be 2016 – We keep waiting and waiting for things to get better while things keep getting worse and worse!
I guess you haven’t heard of Rafael Montero, Luis Mateo, Micheal Fulmer, Tyler Pill, Logan Verrett, Phil Evans, Nimmo, Cecchini, Plawecki, etc… They’ve added a lot more than 1 good prospect. And usually when a mediocre team has a bloated payroll it gets worse before it gets better. That’s what happens when you’re rebuilding. They’re not rebuilding a 100 loss team with no where to go but up. They were a sub 500 145 million dollar team that was bleeding cash. Niese was the only one of the younger guys who took a huge step forward. The rest of them regressed or stagnated. The team has very little talent.
The players you mention, especially the hitters, have proven nothing yet beyond rookie ball and short season. Most of them couldn’t even hit .250. Aren’t yo being a bit premature here? Let’s see if they are successful at high-A or AA before you go pinning medals on DePodesta’s chest, especially considering his awful past performance. People said the same things about Brad Holt, Tobi Stoner and Eddie Kunz. Where are they now?
Montero, Pill and Verrett have already done extremely well at advanced A. And Don’t just go by the numbers some of these kids put up go by there upside potential like many have with Puello, Lagares, Marte and other guys who have yet to put up numbers either. The names I mentioned all have high upsides and they’ve only been here a year. Mateo and montero both have more polished stuff than both Mejia and Familia and beter command of their pitches.
Until one “ONE” (1) player DePodesta drafted actually makes it to the majors and does something worthwhile you’re better off piping down. DePodesta has a wake of awful drafts and that’s the only fact we have. Your conjecture, speculation and enthusiastic ramblings mean nothing until ONE player actually makes it. To date, none have. I appreciate the fact that you are as giddy as a schoolgirl with what this trio has drafted, but nothing has happened here that all 29 other teams can boast as well. Calm down, relax and wait to see what happens like the fans of the other 29 teams are.
None of those guys are at the same level as a Wheeler or a Harvey. You know that.They are years away.
You know your GM is doing an awful job when in a discussion about what he’s accomplished, the only thing you can bring up a handful of A ball pitchers. That in itself shows he hasn’t done a good job.
You also know your doing awful when your defense of the GM is, wpct doesn’t matter and it has to get worse before it gets better – That’s his only defense he has because he’s been awful so far. He’s had no savvy under the radar signings. He’s had horrendous bullpen signings, no creative trades to help the major league team, he’s failed to sign half his picks this year, and lost three good players(Reyes Beltran and Pagan) and have not replaced their prodcution with anyone from outside the orginazation.
But, hey, we have one good prospect, and a couple of A ball pitchers!!!! That makes it all better. Oh and the Wilpons have no money.
Which drafts were Depodesta in charge of that were awful before he got here? Don’t say the Dodgers cause Logan White ran their drafts. Don’t say San Diego cause Randy Smith and Jaron Madison ran their drafts. And DePodesta didn’t run the draft n 2011. Chad McDonald did. Also I’d like to know who were the dopes who though Eddie Kunz or Toby Stoner were anything to write home about. And BTW I’m not saying any of these guys are the next Gooden or Seaver but to say we only have one good prospect brought in here the last 2 years is false and that was the point I was making so relax with the giddy as a school girl comments. If you’ve watched any of thse kids like I have you’d be impressed too.
Vinny those guys don’t have to be as good as Wheeler and Harvey to be considered good prospects. Especially Montero who’s not nearly as far waway as you think and Mateo stuff is as good as anybody in our system. Those 2 guys can be as good as Harvey and Wheeler. Not saying they will but they can.
I agree he’s done a lousy job trying to rebuild the bullpen. I thought Ramirez and Francisco would be much better than they were. At least as good as they have been. Rauch I thought was a bad signing and he turned out to be the best of the 3. There’s otherwise no defense of the terrible job he’s done with the pen. AWFUL. You did have Francisico as one of the guys you wanted to persue so you can’t now 2nd guess that signing. I did as well.
He’s also done nothing but sign bench players. The starting lineup was inherited except for Torres who was only supposed to be a place holder until Kirk was ready. Everybody was so quick to yell “Thanks Omar” everytime one of his players did something to help win a game. It was Omar’s team. Now that the team has again quit for the 3rd year in a row in the 2nd half, it’s because Alderson sat on his hands and didn’t bring in any help which is a crock. The Phillies and Brewers didn’t mail it in after their GM’s threw in the towel.
You guy’s may not wanna hear it but when your team is not any good and playing sub 500 ball and has a bloated payroll that ownership can no longer sustain because of declining revenue due to the team sucking over the last 2 years under the previous front office and last year you have to trim the fat. K-Rod, Beltran, Pagan and Reyes were the sacrificial lambs. Had we kept them the payrol would be 140 million and we’re a 500 team at best. Maybe if we weren’t stuck with Johan and Bays contracts we could’ve kept Reyes at the least.
Who were the under the radar free agent signings and where were we playing them with no open positions except CF. Rick Ankiel? All the names that people were having a coronary over that were signed by other teams ended up DFA’d or just flat out sucked. Lidge, Qualls, Ankiel, Blanco. If Juan Pierre could still play CF he would’ve been a nice under the radar signing but the last time he played CF in 2009 he was a disaster. Creative trades. Who were we trading. The Pagan trade was considered a creative trade and it didn’t work out. Who else were we trading not named Harvey, Wheeler, Niese and Ike that would bring back anything?
Considering the situation he stepped into with a mediocre roster that was paid like a top team with the team in a financial crisis and a weakly ranked farm system it’s just as over the top to say that he’s done an awful job as Craig Lerners over the top posts about how good a job he’s doing. He’s been here 2 years for Gods sake. If he doesn’t make any deals this offseason his 3rd and doesn’t improve the team at all then I think you can say he’s done an awful job. I can’t say that considering the mess he inherited all because he failed to build a good bullpen and he hasn’t replaced 3 players in a year he was forced to cut 50 million from the payroll so the owners can maintain ownership. Look at what Frank Cashen added to team his first 2 offseasons and even a 3rd and tell me what’s the difference between the two. And Frank had no payroll constraints.
How many All Stars has DePo drafted in his career?
No, it’s not over the top. You know what’s over the top? Saying that in 2 years there’s not one thing he could have done to make things better around here. No trades were possible. No good signings were possible – Are you kidding? You expect a reasonable person to believe that the only moves he could have made were all bad?
I’ve seen plenty of other GM’s make good moves during his time here. What about Joe Nathan? Or Fernenado Rodney? If we actually had made some decent bullpen moves the season looks MUCH different. Think about how many games we blew in the 1st half due to the pen, and despite that we were only three games out of first. The whole dynamic of the season would have chagned if we just had a DECENT bullpen.
This team wasn’t a total disaster that he took over. In BOTH years he was here the teams showed signs of life, yet did nothing to help them. That’s why I’m angry, we shouldn’t be this bad right now.
And with Omar’s kids, nobody ever said they were good enough to win without any help. If you have a team that’s just kids(unless they are a bunch of Trouts), then your not going to be succesful. That’s Sandy’s fault because he’s failed to add anything around them. You can’t win with all kids.
Vinny – Can you tell me what great in-season trades Omar made during his tenure to take the team over the top. We keep talking about what little SA has done, and admittedly. the results show no improvement in season.
I’m just curious with the last few years, which included two “collapses”, what did Omar do to improve those teams during the season?
He made a huge splash with the FA market for sure, especially early on in his tenure but as far as improving the team in season, I remember nothing happening then too. Whomever the GM, and improvement, going forward must be made with in season improvements.
Just because Omar did it, dosen’t make it OK.He made tons of mistakes while he was here and everyone knows that. And not improving the team in season was probably one of them.
Was he an awful GM though? No. Because he also made a lot of good moves too. Like Beltran and Delgado. He also made good smaller moves like Dickey, Endy Chavez and Angel Pagan.
What good moves like that has Alderson made? Wheeler? That’s it. As a fan, I want/expect more than just one AAA pitcher in two years. As good of a prospect as he is, he’s still just a prospect – How many top prospects have we had in recent memory that have busted? So, I don’t feel all warm and cozy that we have one very good prospect.
And we shouldn’t be this bad right now. This team and last years team showed signs of life and both years Alderson did nothing in the offseason and during the season to help them.
You GO Vinny!!!!!
I made TWO references how its is not OK, so not sure why you assumed that’s what I said and had to reiterate it.
I also said Omar did a good job with FA, and he yes he did a good job getting Delgado, I asked what great moves he did in season? The answer, he didn’t either (meaning they were done this year either).
Omar did nothing to improve the bullpen either, which was a huge problem in the demise of 07 and 08 seasons.
SA extended Dickey, and Niese, those are also good moves, in addition to Wheeler.
SA most certainly has a huge year ahead of him this year, and with that his tenure will be determined (IMO obviously), but from some of the talk, it seems to me, that some have selective memories of what actually was going on before he got here.
What’s your point about Omar though? I don’t see how him not building a good pen is relelvant to Sandy not building a good bullpen either. They both did bad in that aspect, so?
Oh and Ok great – He extened two good players that he inherited. That’s nothing to wrtie home about. Tell me, what person in their right mind wouldn’t have brought Dickey back??? It was a no-brainer.
Well why would anyone think he NEEDED to make a move at the deadline when he was here?
2006 we had a 14 Game lead in the division at the deadline!
2007 You might be able to make a case as they only had a 3 game lead which eventually went as high as a 7 game lead before we collapsed
2008 We were only a game behind the Phillies at the break and could have used a Pitcher which begs the question…
Which Pitcher were you trading for in 2007 and 2008 to win it all?
And what were you willing to give up to get him?
We did get Santana, Wagner and Delgado in the offseason of those years…
And we were pretty damn good at the time to consider trading a bunch of prospects at the deadline.
The team in those years didn’t feel like the needed help in fact some suggested they were just underperforming and would rise to thier good level before the season was done.
Losing Pitching at the end of the season could not have been predicted or compensated for because there was not a lot of good pitching available out there!
No I did not say the only moves that could be made were bad moves. What I said is when you inherit a mess like he did and are forced to cut payroll at record levels, to expect a team to improve is ridiculous. He did make some good under the radar signings. Chris Young was a decent signing, Scott Hairston was a decent signing. Mike Baxter was a decent signing, Byrdak was a decent signing. These are bench players and they did a good job coming off the bench and Young pitched well for the most as did Byrdak. He’s had 4 bad starts out of 18. The rest have mostly been quality starts.
It’s also easy to cherry pick the free agents that worked out too. Fernando Rodney! The same Fernando Rodney that’s had an ERA over 4.24 the last 5 consecutive years? That Fernando Rodney. Coming into this year he was worse than all 3 guys that we brought in. I’m sure there were peole out there that thought Rodney was going to pitch better than mariano Rivera. They did speak to Joe Nathan, he wanted to play for a contender first. It’s easy to pick out the guys having good years and say that’s who we could’ve signed but it’s 2nd guessing when it was done to Omar. Agee got killed on this site for doing that.
Yeah you right if he did a better job with the bullpen the season would look a little different, true but in the end the cream rises to the top. This team lacks talent. He had 2 years to evaluate the promising players you thought we had from our system and now we see that guys like Murphy and Duda are not promising players in the NL he has work to do and if nothing happens over the winter then you have a gripe. If he’s giving those kids a shot a becoming major leaguers then where is he bringing in help from the outside? What positions is he filling without giving one of the kids a shot? LF? , Bay CF? Kirk, RF? Duda, 1B? Ike, 2B? Yeah, I could’ve told you Murphy will never be an adequate everyday 2Bman. I actually did say it before the season started. SS? Tejada, 3B Wright? C? Another. So 2 positions he needed to be creative. That’s all.
But I disagree about the team he took over. They were nothing but a sub 500 team with a top 5 payroll and ownership was bleeding cash. They had to dump the high salaried guys. They couldn’t get anybody to take Bay and Johan who take up 45% of the payroll and are dead weight.
The team showed signs of life for one half a season. They didn’t tank because they didn’t get any help. They tanked because they’re not good enough and they have no mental toughness. They have no balls. If they quit because they felt the FO didn’t get them help then all of them need to go. The Phillies and Brewers not only didn’t get any help they threw in the towel but they didn’t quit. You seem to be forgettting they quit in 2010 too. Different manager, different GM same result in the 2nd half. No help from Omar either. Was there an outcry then?
Only someone like you could think a team with 4 All Stars on it was a mess!
And I didn’t even include Santana in that because he hasn’t been what he was the last time he made the ASG.
Santana and Bay are the only contracts on the books that could be considered bad contracts!
And Funny they seem to be the only two we have yet to deal with!
A team with 4 Allstars that can’t play 500 ball for a season and a team with 5 Allstars choked away 2 playoff chances. 145 million bucks for sub 500 baseball is a mess. A GM lost his job over that mess. I don’t care if they have 9 allstars if they can play winning baseball and don’t have the heart or toughness to keep from choking 2 years in a row. Bullpens couldn’t get an out in a big spot. Starters couldn’t hold big leads and those allstars couldn’t get hits off the Nats and Marlins awful bullpens late in games to keep from choking. They choked to 2 horrible teams 2 straight year with all those allstars.
Santana and Bay are the only bad contracts because he already got rid of the other bad contracts. Those 2 are impossible to move without eating all their money which does nothing to free up cash.
Expecting a team to show signs of improvement after two years is ridiculous? You know what’s ridiculous? That statement is ridiculous.
If team truly sucked, then why didn’t he clean house and start from scratch? Why is Wright still here? Why wasn’t Reyes traded for prospects? And worse yet, if he’s trying to rebuild, then why the hell do you not sign half your draft picks????
You either try to compete or you try to rebuild and the Mets are still doing niether. After two years we are STILL don’t have a direction. Is is that too much to ask too? A direction? You know fans like me these day are so spolied, they actually want their team to have a plan! That’s just so over the top, I know.
The best part of your post is where you ask me a question, I answer try to answer it, and you attack me for it! Talk about a set up question, my god.
Oh and his good signings have been according to you: A platoon player, a backup, a starter with 4.37 ERA 1.35 WHIP that spent half the season on the DL – Whoo hoo! And with Byrdack, because Sandy didn’t sign a 2nd lefty, it lead to him being overused and misused, and eventually he landed on the DL because of that.
Oh and you think because some of the young players on this team took a step back this year, that somehow proves me wrong? It doesn’t at all. I knew that every player I talked about wouldn’t turn out as I expected, cause that’s how it always is with young players. I also knew that some of the players we have would experience growing pains – It happens to every young player.
Also, let’s not forget, you AGREED with me about our young talent. In my post about our young talent, you applauded me for it. So, it seems strange that you would take a shot at me saying “the players you thought were promising”, when you actually felt the same way i did.
And let’s not forget the players I was right on the money about – I was right about Niese, Tejada, Gee and Harvey but of course you don’t mention that. Also, the jury is still out on a lot of the other guys I talked about.
Yeah Fonzie which 4 All stars did we have in 2010 and 2009 for an entire season?
And if your GM can’t win one more game than the tam he inherited in two years time it will take a hundred years before he can win two!
This team has gotten worse not better over the last 2 years!
“Expecting a team to show signs of improvement after two years is ridiculous? You know what’s ridiculous? That statement is ridiculous.”
Yeah that statement would be ridiculous if that was the statement I made. love how you twist the words around to help your arguement. twice in this thread alone.
How about what I actually said – When you inherit a mess like he did and are forced to cut payroll at record levels, to expect a team to improve is ridiculous. Now you change it to “Show signs” of improvement. They did “Show signs” of improvement they were 8 games over 500 no? How in Gods name are you getting better when you just cut 50 million dollars from payroll? It’s nearly impossible.
And if you’ve been reading my comments since the day I started commenting I said all along that he should’ve cleaned house the day he walked in the door. Trying to compete with that group by bringing in bottom of the barrel players wasn’t doing anything but delaying the rebuilding process.
I said it after 2008 that the team neaded to be ripped up. 2 choke jobs in a row should have been an alarming sign that that group was never going to get it done. Most people thought I was nuts and if not after 2008 then it should’ve been a no brainer after 2009. Instead we kept throwing good money after bad money and dug the hole even deeper. We could’ve gotten huge returns on Wright, Reyes and Beltran after 2008. We could’ve gotten a decent amount of prospects for Wright, Reyes and Pagan after 2010 and then the Beltran for Wheeler deal would’ve been the icing on the cake.
Why did they not sign half their picks? I don’t know. Maybe they like the 33 IFA’s they signed better. Who knows. They did spend a lot of money on IFA’s this year. And this past draft class was considered much weaker than last years when they signed 38 of their picks. Steve Phillips signed 25 out of 50 one year and when Agee mentioned it he got ripped a new one.
“The best part of your post is where you ask me a question, I answer try to answer it, and you attack me for it! Talk about a set up question, my god”
Really I attacked you? You can’t be serious. Where and how did I attack you. Set up question? What?
” Oh and his good signings have been according to you: A platoon player, a backup, a starter with 4.37 ERA 1.35 WHIP that spent half the season on the DL – Whoo hoo! And with Byrdack, because Sandy didn’t sign a 2nd lefty, it lead to him being overused and misused, and eventually he landed on the DL because of that.”
That’s what they were signed for. Bench! And they did a good job too. Young was signed for insurance and he did a good job. Are we the only team that didn’t have a 2nd lefty? Isn’t that what you always say in defense of your arguments. Other teams this and that. Yeah it’s Sandy’s fault Collins pitched Byrdak every day. Maybe, hope fully in the not too distant future Sandy can take on salary dumos too like Delgado and Santana and maybe he can sign a top free agent but right now he can’t.
Oh and this is like the 3rd time you mentioned how I praised you and applauded you for the post about the young talent Omar left. If I remember correctly I said you did a good job with the post. And I’m pretty sure I said the same thing that I’m still saying. Omar left some nice pieces both on the big club and at the minor league level but the jury is still out as far as developing impact players.
Especially on the position player side. We have potential for some but it’s still just that potenial. Duda is a DH. The rest of his game is just to weak to even consider him a potential impact player. And he has a lot of maturing as a hitter if he’s ever going to be an impact DH. I’ve seen enough of him know where I can safely say he’s not for the NL. Murphy is not the difference maker you said he was. Thole just doesn’t belong in the major leagues. Parnell doesn’t belong in NY. Kirk is a platoon player/4th OFer. He doesn’t just struggle against lefties, he can’t touch them. His bat is too slow, he gets beat by 90 MPH fastballs regularly and doesn’t have any one tool that jumps put at you. Even Ike who I happen to like has major holes in his swing, looks pathetic against LHP and if he’s going to remain stubborn then he has no shot at being an impact player. He’ll end up being a guy who hits majestc HR’s but doesn’t do a whole lot else. And he was nothing close to being a Gold Glover that I keep hearing people say here. He’s been below average this year. He’s the one guy who has a chance to be but if I had a gun to my head I’d say his upside is Adam LaRoche.
I just think you overrate the system as a whole. From a position standpoint the farm is weak. The strength of the farm is the pitching. Flores is the only guy above A ball that I think will be an impact bat but he still doesn’t have a position. Marte, Puello have shown very little improvement. They’re young but i’m not sold on their skill sets. Lagares is another guy who’s most likely a 4th outfielder. He has no power. And he’s bulking up which means he most likely won’t be able to play CF at the next level and that’s where his bat profiles. Vaughn could be decent but another guy that I don’t see as an impact bat. Could be a decent player but not an impact player.
And before you pat yourself on the back for Gee can he pitch a full season. He had a good 1st half last year too but he wasn’t good at all after the allstar break. Tejada I love but again he’s just a nice, high IQ player. Not a big time player. I’m always praising Niese and I’m on the Harvey train too but I have to see more than 10 starts before I annoint him as a stud. He has to master that 3d pitch, you can get by with 2 pitches for so long. I’m confident he will but lets hold off with he I’m on the money with Harvey. I’ve seen these starts many times before by young pitchers and not turn out to be big time pitchers.
And for some reason you seem to think when I say the Mets have done a poor job developing impact over the last 20 years that it’s just a knock on Omar. It’s a knock on the Wilpons which I’ve stated many times. You think it’s irrelevent but the truth is the Wilpons have operated under the same philosphy with the draft with all their GM’s except last year. Adhere to slot recommendations and draft mosty college seniors with no leverage. The same scouts under Steve Phillips were the same scouts under Omar except for a handful of area scouts that Omar added.
Marlin Mcphail was hired by Steve Phillips, he’s the scout who scouted and signed Ty Wigginton, Bobby Parnell, Reese Havens, Josh Edgin, Matt Harvey and Cory Mazzoni to name a few. That’s 3 different GM’s that players he scouted were drafted by. Edwin Bryant Scouted and Signed Niese also a Phillips hire, Steve Leavitt another, scouted Duda. Mike Brown, scouted and signed Ike Davis. Same scouts, same ownership, same philosphy. That’s why I have little confidence in our system producing big time talent. More depth was produced during Omar’s tenure but at least 2 impact players came out of Phillips tenure. The only problem was nothing else was developed under his watch.
What you said still doesn’t make it better.. This team after two years should be improving and it hasn’t. 8 games over in the first half isn’t an improvement, you know why? We played good in the first half the previous two years also, and later fell apart like this year. So how is that an improvement? It’s not.
If what your saying is true, that we have no talent and it would have been almost impossible to improve, then why the hell didn’t he clean house and start from scratch? If he KNEW the team couldn’t improve, then he should have traded every valuable piece we had into prospects and young players. He didn’t. Instead he did nothing, except for Wheeler. Who’s great and all, but if your trying to rebuild an entire orginazation, you need a hell of a lot more than one guy.
So to me, whether you think this team sucked and couldn’t improve, or was decent and could have improved, the job they did so far(and “so far” is still a key word here), is awful.
FYI, I said the same thing about Omar only having one lefty. So if you think you found an inconsistency there, well your wrong. But nice try though.
Also, yes, your question about who we could have signed was a set up. You wanted me to answer that question just so you can say “your doing the same thing t agee did!!!”.
Let me remind you that the reason the whole thing with t agee started was with the draft. He would go back years and years and pick out every good player and say we should have drafted them. He was so idealistic that, if Mets actually did what he said, we would have fielded an allstar team of completly homegrown talent.I think it’s pretty clear to see the difference between what he used to do and what I said the other day.
Another difference was that he would bring up players we should have signed voluntarily. What I did was answer a question you ASKED ME. You asked me who was a good under the radar signing and I answered. That’s it. If I brought up on my own out of nowhere, ” we should have signed Fernando Rodney!!! How can this FO be so stupid”, then yes, I would be doing the same thing t agee did. But, I didn’t, all I did was answer a simple question that you asked me.
I have no memory of asking t agee a question, have him answer it, and then call him a 2nd guesser for it. If I ever did that, and I don’t think I did, then I would have been wrong for doing so.
^^^^^THIS!
“You go Vinny”
Very mature………what a shock……
Yep! It was pretty much what you guys have done for two seasons now…Whats the matter don’t like it when your own posting tactics are used against you Sweetie?
Would you prefer I go back to my old repetitive complaining and reminding of all the problems your favorite GM has made instead that you guys constantly complained were sick of hearing?
And now that a guy who has never played the insult game with you is saying it leaving you no way to cite him as a troublemaker is saying it you guys have no plan to get rid of him?
Chuckle Chuckle!
Sweetie? Is that all you got honey? You guys? Who are you guys?
You are child that is incapable of having an adult debate. If someone disagrees with you, you just go on and on without making lucid point.
I have never said SA is my GM, never, you said that, you make that assumption based on absolutely nothing. Sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor that you can’t understand what other people write. You are part of a childish clique and thing its us against them. The act is getting old now.
I know you are but what am I…………..
Comment deleted – Strike 2
Glad to see that someone else “gets it” . We went into this season wondering… if we would get anything out of Johann Santana, wondering about Ruben Tejada. Johann gave us some good outings and then a special moment. He is no longer an ace pitcher but he did come back from the toughest surgery for as pitcher. Being the warrior he is, he should be better next year. The problem is that far too many people on this site expect that his performance should equal his salary and that ain’t gonna happen! These same people are still bitching about letting Jose Reyes go but doing so was a very good move. I loved Jose but he was a bad risk to resign and a drain on the payroll as was Carlos Beltran. Zack Wheeler will be the next “stud” starting pitcher for the Mets. If he proves to be as good as what we have seen from Matt Harvey then we have a formidable starting staff with R.A. Dickey and Jonathon Niese as the first four. Dillon Gee, Johann Santana and a few others will be the guys fighting it out as the fifth/sixth man.
None of us are happy with the Wilpon’s but they are not leaving town! They have made huge mistakes about what Citi Field is all about. The outer building design looking like Ebbets Field was fine but far too much homage to the Brooklyn Dodgers. Ballparks around the majors have been built with statues, street names, and plazas adorned with statues etc honoring iconic players. Has any player deserved these type of honors more than Tom Seaver? What about Strawberry, Carter, Piazza, and Hernandez? Time for some new numbers to be retired to honor these kind of players.
Shea was always a pitchers ballpark, so what did they do? They originally made Citi Field into a hitter’s nightmare! It has been improved so obviously they have admitted the mistake.
The commissioner may have forced Sandy A on the Wilpon’s but the bottom line is that he is here to right a sinking ship and he is doing just that. It is not an overnight chore because the whole ship was sinking and not just the first class section. The organization was bad from top to bottom and that is why Sandy brought in all of his guys who have been GM’s and assistant GM’s in the past. We have seen a number of young players this year who have shown a lot of promise but also their need for more seasoning and expeirence. Kirk ( can’t spell his last name) and Mike Baxter are part of the future. After a disastrous first half. Ike Davi has shown us that he is a 30 -40 homer guy. We have some solid everyday players
here but there are still some holes to fill. If they fill one or two and the young starters continue to mature we will be a lot better. Our bullpen problems will be reduced with less innings to pitch. Far too many appearances for too many guys again.
The team has played horribly in recent weeks and in general since the All Star break. Too many fans were dreaming that we could be a playoff team.because the Mets were over achieving and when we lost Santana and Gee to injury is when the bullpen began to overload from abuse. what disturbs me the most is our poor play at home. By the end of 2012 we will have perhaps the worst home record in baseball.
Is it too much pressure playing in front of the NY media and the savage fan base waiting like vultures to finish off a wounded animal? Something should be done but will ownership and the brass come up with an answer? I often feel that a team needs the “right” players and not just the best ones. Player’s who lead by example, who play with an attitude….with fire. Those are the guys who don’t let the dog days of August wear down a team from a mental standpoint.
.I am one of the “faithful” and even though I am now 2500 miles away from NY….I follow the team and watch every day on TV.
How about telling me and the other fans what you would do to improve the situation?
.
From the Wipons down to the players-THEY ALL DESERVE EACH OTHER!!
The sad thing is the fans don’t!!
This is his problem why the hell is he apologizing to them…..(As Francesa would say) THEY STINK!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bMn0DquGBA
I agree. I have never cared for TC, time for him to go.
I like Collins and this is being blown out of proportion by SNY and FAN. So maybe he slipped up, so what? He’s gotten more out of this team than Manuel would have.
Liz — The naysayers who were lying low are now having a field day. We don’t need a new manager. We need fans who can gut it out. Those are few and far between when the going gets tough. SNY and FAN are playing a viewership game in which bad news sells better than good news.
We need new players. Players with talent and some self pride. 3 straight years quitting in the 2nd half.
I agree with you Liz. TC was a fine hire for the “transition,” but they never should have picked up his option. I dislike it greatly when options are granted way before they’re due.
On the issue of disliking …… I’m still going to watch the games until the end, but I want to see the whole organization flipped this winter. Bring in a GM who cares, a manager like Backman and get rid of all the remnants of the past failures, and DW has to be one.
Last, speaking of Wright… does anybody remember the irritating Rollins’ comment about the Mets being “chokers” after the 2007/before the 2008 season? Wright choked a bunch that year, and seeing how Rollins is so frickin’ edgy/arrogant and Wright so squeaky clean, I’ll bet those comments were more directed at DW than anyone else.
T.C. has got to go, but he’s just an element. He’ll never bring a Mets team to the playoffs. No way, no how.
Others said it best. I don’t think we’ll ever be championship-quality until WIlpons sell.
Rough, rough road ahead.
Time for him to go. Doesn’t matter if a team is good or bad, once they quit on you there’s no turning back. The worst thing you could do is have him around after two straight second half fades if and when this team gets better. It will be 2007 and 2008 all over again. There’s a reason why he can’t hold down a job. Minaya knew his strength was as a minor league coordinator, but he also knew better than to hand him the manager’s job. It took Alderson to make that dumb move, the first of what would be many.
Lol….true statements
EVERY TEAM single team Terry Collins has managed has either quit on him or he quit on them. And I mean EVERY TEAM freaking team even the team he coached in Japan. He is best suited as Minor league coordinator or bench coach at best.
Off topic
Me and my brother were talking this morning and he said that being a NYG fan kind of makes the misery of being a Mets fan worth it. Don’t know how other Giants/Mets fans feel but the Giants success has made the Mets futility a bit more palatable. My apologies to all Knicks and Jets fans. zing!
Time to bring in Backman. I like Terry but I think Wally is ready to take this mess on. There are a lot of young players coming up and he knows how to get the best out of these players. Backman will fight for these guys and this team. The time is now. I’m tired of waiting until next year, believe, etc. If we are rebuilding the team then lets rebuild with someone who will get as much as they can out of his players.
Did anybody just catch Kevin Burkhardt’s other comments a few minutes ago on the pre-game show.
He referred to when the Mets were playing well but knew that the front office had to do something to help them and when the front office did nothing, even though the players won’t admit it publicly, privately they must feel as being a “kick in the teeth”.
This came after Bobby Ojeda was pointing out certain games he felt were indicators of bad things to come which had to do it seemed with character, like Francisco with the “chicken” bit against the Yankees, another saying to the Nats that they will see them in October and the last game against Chicago prior to the all-star break when they were shut out and seemed too cocky.
Kevin was sounding firm in voicing his own belief and being so frank – even if it’s just an opinion – takes guts considering it is a knock on Sandy Alderson. Even though Sandy does not run SNY, Kevin is still working for the Wilpons.
But of course, spirit counts for nothing, as some still contend.
Spirit counts for zero without talent. You can say my name you don’t have to beat around the bush. Without talent spirit gets you Joe McEwing. Understand now? We have very little talent. Those words Bobby O said you fail to repeat.
Hi Fonzie,
Doing nothing would certainly demoralize a club, knowing it needed help to continue being a contender and that help wasn’t forthcoming. In the first half, the Mets were being killed by their bullpen and it’s to their credit they still managed to be seven games over .500. Their record would have been much better with one or two better arms in relief.
Yet, despite this obvious Achilles heel that needed to be fixed, nothing was being done at all during the first half of the year, with this inactivity culminating with three critical and heartbreaking losses to Atlanta and Washington after coming from behind in the late innings to take leads – all due to the inefficiency of the bullpen Sandy put together two years in a row. Again, he acknowledged publicly right before the all-star break that his main concern was getting better relief pitching – and that he was negotiating with other clubs. He had all season to try something yet did nothing to other than to call up rookies and throwing them into crucial situations. He did not attempt to take the risks all general managers do when in his position.
If the front office does nothing, what type of signal does that send to the players? Such lack of support would frustrate any team and cause it not to give up but to stop playing their game and to being pressing. Starters try too hard not to give up a run which leads to more than one scoring. Batters swing too wildly going for extra base hits and instead of setting up situations to score one or two runs, we wind up with nothing. Instead of going for the sure out, fielders go for the lead runner or even make an unwise throw to the plate which results in giving the opposing team four outs to work with instead of three.
It’s called PRESSING.
Now, a move or two could have been made and the team could still have tanked as badly as it did. No question that could happen. But one must TRY. Doing nothing means getting nothing. It would have been unrealistic to expect the team to continue getting those outstanding starting pitching performances and incredible two out rallies in the second half and they would not have felt the pressure to try and continue so anyway had they gotten help to take that burden off their shoulders.
And Bobby Ojeda also mentioned during the first half that what this team lacked in talent it made up in spirit and he was angry with the front office when the team began to nose dive after that series in Atlanta and Washington and nothing was done. He said that was the time for the Mets to have made a move to prevent the team from falling further.
The problems that caused this team to fade after the all-star break was due to a two year series of moves, non-moves and discarding of players. Two years of the front office and we are now in a catastrophe. Players hint they want to leave and others won’t come here. We are counting on the farm system producing at least two outfielders (three if Duda doesn’t bounce back), a catcher, two starting pitchers to replace Santana and Dickey) plus a revamped bullpen. If Wright leaves add a third baseman to the mix. That’s too much to count on at one time.
Citi Field has turned into a morgue because one did not have the wisdom to see the underlying effects that his vision would cause. It’s going to stay that way for a much longer time unless that vision is revised.
What type of signal did the Phillies ripping away 3 pieces of their team send to their players with no help to replace those players? What signal did Milwaukee send their players when they sold off their ace for a minor leaguer? Did either of those two teams quit? They were 14 games and 12 games under 500 respectively and threw in the towe. They didn’t cry about not getting help and giving away important pieces. They kept on fighting. I also notice you fail to mention that in 2010 the Mets were 11 games over 500 and did nothing to bring in help either. I wonder why you never bring that up. Oh yeah Alderson wasn’t here when that happened.
Ahits so nice to play the game about other teams ignoring fact…. That’s the way of the Alderson gang. What signal did the Phillies send that you totally ignore. They sent the signal that underachieving names who play lazy, lie their two traded outfielders weredoing are going to be dumped. They sent a signal that you play hard and get your stars back you get better. But of course its easy for the Alderson gang to deny or ignore facts in their blinf love for Mr Alderson, the GM who cannot make a move when needed, who cannot make a good move, and can have p[eople worship him for getting one prospect in two years. Its incredible why anyone if not on his payroll could worship this failed hire. How much do you get Fonzie. Surely, you have too much intellect to actually mean the crap you pen!
Yeah lets see who’s ignoring the facts. The Mets 2nd half failures the past 3 years have happened under 2 different GM’s and 2 different managers. You know what the facts are? This team lacks talent. The choke jobs 2 straight years and the 2nd half of 2010 was under a different GM and 2 different managers yet you guys want to continue to throw out the same core group of guys that have no heart, no guts and no mental toughness. You guys want to keep a team together that can’t play 500 ball but had one of the highest payrolls in the sport. Where was the help in 2010 from the GM when that team was 11 games over 500? When did that move come to help in 2010 I seem to forget.
The classic blind love for Alderson line comes out if you don’t say he sucks. That’s all you guys ever come up with. You want facts. This GM took over an absolute mess and the joke of MLB. A roster of overpaid underperforming slobs who had no heart and no mental toughness and a minor league system ranked near the bottom in all of MLB. A team that cut a record 50 million dollars from payroll so the owner could survive and you guys act like he dismantled a contending team. It’s hilarious. This team sucks. The players that were left here did not get it done. And the players that are still here after dumping all that payroll suck even more.
And in only the last two of them did the GM go out in public and say “NO MAS, SEASON’S OVER!”
We were not in any competitive way the first year (2010)!
Our Ace was hurt, Our best Batter was coming off surgery and a year layoff and struggled the first two months of his return.
We were 6.5 games back at the trade deadline in 2010!
Were hoping Beltran was our mid season booster but he didn’t boost.
And that was with Mike Plefrey being our ACE throughout the season!
Name the Pitcher we could have gotten which I wanted us to get after the 2009 Offseason but couldn’t get which was Halladay!
Are you kidding We were 11 games over 500 right before the allstar break and went into the break 8 games over because we lost 4 out of 6 to the Reds and Braves at home and Johan did not get hurt until the end of the year. He got hurt in September after pitching 200 innings to a 2.98 ERA. You’re mixing up the years.
8 games over 500 coming out of the break and we had our full lineup intact coming out of the break cause Beltran came back. You can’t use Beltrans injury as an excuse when the team built up an 11 game over 500 record without him and got him back the first game out of the break. Just because he struggled doesn’t mean that Wright, Reyes, Pagan, Ike, Francouer, Bay until he got hurt but sucked anyway, Barajas should all tank on the season. And Omar didn’t bring in any help either.
And please leave a link that shows Sandy saying no mas the seasons over. We tanked in 2010 because we weren’t a good team not because of injuries. Joey Votto missed 2 months and the Reds didn’t miss a beat. Beltran taking 6 weeks to find his swing is not an excuse to quit in the 2nd half.
Was Murphy there for all of 2010? Why Not?
Was Beltran there for all of 2010? Why Not?
Who was the heart of our order in the first half of 2010?
The Mighty Bay and Wright?
Barajas?
We lost Delgado for good in 2009, And the only options to replace him were Holliday and Bay!
Who was our 5th starter that year?
Perez and Maine?
WHo could we have gotten to replace them?
The only guy who was available to get that year was Halladay and the Phillies got him we didn’t even have a shot!
Big difference between not doing something and having nothing you can do!
As for Sandy quotes on giving up they have been posted many times….
Do your own searching….
he came out and said we were buyers then said we were not anymore.
If thats not giving up what is?
No Murphy’s bat was replaced by Ike Davis. An improvement. Beltran missed the first half and we were still 11 games over without him and 8 games over when he came back. Injuries are an excuse for 2009 not 2010. We had worse injuries in 2011 and you still cry about Sandy throwing in the towel.
The heart of the order in 2010? The heart of the order that got us to 11 games over 500?
Reyes, Pagan, Wright, Ike, Bay, Francouer, Barajas. That was the lineup that got us to 11 games over. Then they got Beltran back. The same team that you think was a contender then, now wasn’t any good cause it hurts your argument. Yeah okay!
Where was the help then to make that team better? It never came either.
“he came out and said we were buyers then said we were not anymore.”
LMAO
Oh Sandy…When I was a kid my father used this same trick with us….lol….
After coming home from any event me and my brothers always wanted to eat out……So to SHUT US UP and have happy kids in the car for a long drive— my dad would tell us he was taking us to get Pizza,Burgers or Ice cream etc if we were quiet and not fight. So we’d be quiet the whole freaking drive just thinking about what we might get(like met fans waiting to for a trade). And every couple miles he’d say almost there lol…next thing we knew we were home and his excuse was they were closed…lol…and we got nothing(just like Sandy got the Mets at the deadline).
Dandy Sandy treating us like kids
A rookie replaced Murphy’s bat?
The same Rookie who ent through the expected Rookie slump once they adjusted to him and then put us out of contention because he was the only power hitter other than the also struggling Beltran on the team?
Ike and Beltran were the only power hitters in 2010? Wrights 29 HR’s don’t count?
Omar, Randolph and Manuel were FIRED!!! for those collapses.
Sandy was brought in to presumably IMPROVE the team CHANGE the culture of the team.RIGHT???
He has done neither. But worsen the situation
I dont think anyones acting like he dismantled a contender, theyre acting like he let players with value leave and got nothing in return. And now we’re in a predicament where he admitted to his failing to improve the team out of his own mouth. As well as announce the team he put together was soo bad he will make whole sale changes this coming off-season.
As far as your comment stating,
“This team lacks talent.”
YES, you are right it does but thats Sandys fault Omar left him with talent.
Omar left him with:
1B Ike Davis
2B Tejada
2B/3B Murphy
3B Wright
SS Reyes
OF Beltran
OF Pagan
SP Dickey
SP Niese
SP Gee
SP Harvey
SP Santana
——————————————————————————————-
Sandy fielded this team
C Thole
1B Ike
2B Murphy
3B Wright
SS Tejada
OF Torres
OF Duda
OF Bay(leftover from Omar)
———————————————————————————————————————–
He let 2 Allstars go and got back a prospect in return. And didnt add anyone help the major league club. All he did was promote prospects from the farm(The same farm you said sucks) whom helped this team the 1st half of both seasons stay competitive and over .500 record.
Thats the facts!
When will Omar stop getting the blame for Sandys inability to put together a decent team? Omar left this team better off than it was when he was hired.
“I dont think anyones acting like he dismantled a contender”
THIS! It’s not that he deconstructed a contender what he did is dismantle a good base to turn into a contender!
Why does this team lack talent?
Well what do you expect when three All Stars get shown the door with nothing but one kid who hasn’t pitched a game in the MLB is all that came back in return?
He should have gotten more for K-Rod and Reyes if he was insistent on letting them go and then we would have more than just Wheeler to look forward to the next two years as opposed to waiting another 3 or 4 for his one FULL draft and subsequent HALF draft to make it to the MLB and give someone some hope.
And if you ask me it will soon be 4 All Stars out the door before we know it!
Then of COURSE this team will have no talent as we will have given away anyone who was good in the hopes that Dickey Wheeler and harvey will win 30 games each all by themselves!
Leroy that team looks good on paper but you know as well as I do that it was not a good team. And you know as well as I do they could not sustain that payroll with Wilpon still owning the team. They were a sub 500 145 million dollar team. They have to dismantle before they can start improving it unless we get new owners like the Dodgers got with deep pockets that can absorb all that dead weight and continue to add payroll to the good players and get rid of the bad. Unfortunately we don’t have new owners. It’s not about Omar anymore he’s gone but we still have to get out from under those contracts before we can get better as long as the D-bags own the team. It’s not about trashing Omar or defending Sandy. It’s the reality of the situation right now. Omar left a better system than he inherirted but he did not leave a better situation than the one he inherited. He was allowed to sign anybody he wanted. This guy has to dump. Big difference. Leaving off Bay and Thole as part of the team Omar left but adding them to the team that Sandy fielded is unfair . Bay and Thole were already starters. Even Duda was considered an asset left. And using a half season of Johan in 2 years as an asset left is also unfair. I also didn’t say the farm sucked. I said it was it was ranked near the bottom which it was.
All the guys they traded at the deadline were coming up for Free Agency at the end of the year and were traded for Kids to get something other than just compensatory picks!
And who says they won’t go resign them in FA in the offseason the way they went after Cliff Lee in the offseason after trading him?
Which is what we should have done with Beltran!
Should have done with Reyes!
Its because Sandy Alderson’s act is wearing thin too. The constant non-answers and outright lies. Like when he said he hasn’t discussed 2013 payroll with ownership. Yeah right.
VERY premature for the Mets management to call Collins and let him know his job is safe in 2013. These are the same guys who told Collins to at least aim to finish 3rd or else? Why should he be rewarded? Especially with news that managers such as Mike Scioscia and Jim Leyland might be on the way out after the season. One of those two need to be here and take charge of these guys.
For the record, I can’t say I blame Collins for calling out the players, either in a good or bad way. These guys have flat out QUIT in the 2nd half of the season for the second time in 3 seasons. Pathetic. His intention was not to “challenge their integrity”? PISS ON THAT! These guys have NO integrity. If they don’t like what they hear, there’s the door.
It’s the 3rd time in 3 seasons they quit in the 2nd half. They did it to Manuel in 2010 as well. He even called the offense pathetic at one point. Manuel got the blame for accepting the losing, even joking about it in his post game press conferences. Collins preached how he holds his players accountable but that’s all BS too because this is his 2nd straight year the team has quit on him. Tonight he benched Duda for not running hard on a pop up that fell in and he didn’t make it to 2nd. Earlier in the year Wright on a 2 out flyball where he was the runner on 1B barely made it to 3B on dropped ball in the OF and Collins did nothing. He only holds young guys accountable. When do we start blaming the players for quitting and not the manager and coaches? When most of the players on the team are not even established major leaguers and they’ve given up with jobs for the taking in the majors that’s an alarming trend and I don’t think I want any of those guys on the team going forward. Dickey, Niese and Harvey are the only guys who look to be taking their jobs seriously. The rest look disinterested,
Hi Fonzie,
“When most of the players on the team are not even established major leaguers and they’ve given up with jobs for the taking in the majors that’s an alarming trend and I don’t think I want any of those guys on the team going forward.”
You are right with that – it’s a very bad sign. This is not a team of Richie Hebners.
But the question remains – especially in light of the important point you bring out about so many not even being established in their careers – what made them give up? One would think it would be quite the opposite, taking the opportunity to show what they could do. Duda especially, since he was already sent down.
I can understand being demoralized (which we disagree on) but can’t understand not playing hard (which we both agree on).
They don’t believe in themselves. If they’ve quit the last 3 years because they didn’t get help from the front office then they don’t believe in themselves. 2010-2012 2 different GM’s and 2 different managers and the team quit. No help brought on in 2010. Traded Beltran and K-Rod in 2011 and no help in 2012 and all 3 years the team tanked in the 2nd half. When do the players take the blame? When do we realize that they don’t have the talent or the heart to compete? You didn’t see Philly quit when they traded off 2 OFers and a starter and you didn’t see Milwaukee quit when they traded their ace of the staff. They fought hard with what they had. They could fire the whole front office and replace the manager and coaching staff but if the new front office or if this one doesn’t make wholesale changes and get rid of the duds on this team and there are a lot of them left, then we will still have the same results. And if they still had Beltran, Reyes, K-Rod and Pagan all that does is maybe get us to 500 for another 45 million.
I agree 100% Collins only holds the young guys accountable…..Charlie Manuel benched there former MVP vet Jimmy Rollins for dogging it on a pop up…thats a statement to a team that no one is above reprove….Benching one of our best players sends a message to everyone and rightfully so…Benching Duda was the right move but you have to be consistent, maybe Duda dogged it because Wright gets away with it all the time. Remember what Duda said when they sent him down Ike was worst than I was and he wasnt sent down, why me.Collins lost this team his fault
Terry didn’t lose them the front office did!
K Burkhardt said it today in the pre-game…
None of the players will say it on the record but not doing anything at the deadline was a Kick in the Teeth to them!
Metsie – Which pre-game show did Burkhardt say that on, Thurs or Fri? Want to cue it up. If he said that, it’s huge.
Joey D said it was yesterday.
“He referred to when the Mets were playing well but knew that the front office had to do something to help them and when the front office did nothing, even though the players won’t admit it publicly, privately they must feel as being a “kick in the teeth”.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/09/players-not-happy-with-terrys-remarks-but-front-office-says-he-will-be-back-in-2013.html#comment-283423
Yep just before yesterday’s game!
I can’t remember if it was the Pre-Game Pre-Game show with Ojeda or the pre-game discussion with Cohen Darling and Hernandez though.
I will attempt to quote him as accuratly as possible here….
“The players won’t say it but it is clear the fact that they didn’t make some move to help them at the deadline (may have said ASB) was a kick in the teeth to this team.”
Thanks MNJ and Metsie, somehow I missed that whole sequence. I’m very shocked Burkhardt admitted that on the air, and if Rubin had said that the attack would have been full on because there were no specific players mentioned.
I have to shed light on this in a post because 1) The comment was shocking and 2) It wasn’t picked up on by anybody aside from this thread.
I searched Burkhardt’s twitter feed and a Google search and found nothing either.
You know me, lol, I’m all about bringing balance to the force.
Understood, just keep in mind that this is at least based on how it is written here KB giving his opinion on what he thinks the players feel. At least that is how it reads.
He said “even though the players wont admit it publicly”. Which infers they said it but wanted it off the record, so is it Burkhardt’s opinion? Or reporting facts as he knows them to be?.
Having not heard the actual quote it says privately they must feel as being a “kick in the teeth”.
He is extrapolating a feeling based on what transpired.
Maybe emailing KB and getting his thoughts on what he said would help. I can only go based on how it was portrayed here.
I guess Dickey’s quotes don’t qualify as proof?
My post is ready. Reached out to Kevin for a reply. Got the actual quote and he did say publicly. Asked him to comment further on it so I can clarify if it was opinion or truly off the record from a player or players that he chose to keep anonymous.
Sounds good.
I would be surprised if he confirms at all either way…
Cause if this goes mainstream chances are likely some players will get very upset with him for saying it in the first place.
They probably did not see him say it at the time.
We will see.
It should also be pointed out that it was right around the same time that the quotes on Winning came out from Wright and Dickey!
There was never any mention of winning in regards to contract before the Harveya dn Deadline!
When he said it I was floored too!
I always suspected that was the case and it wasn’t just the deadline that kicked them in the teeth it started with the refusal to bring up Harvey IMO which was the first sign the FO really could care less about this season.
Gee went down and the went with Batista and Hefner instead of the guy we have all been told is going to make the future good. They lose a few games and then bring him up and he is the guy who breaks the losing streak. Then the deadline hits and they are forced to swallow thier teeth!
And just to be clear we knew this has been a problem as far back as last year!
Dickey is already on record saying that last season they felt the GM gave up on them and after doing it again this year we still wonder why this team has quit on anyone in the second half?
What were they supposed to do? Trade a decent prospect for some middle-reliever on the last year of his contract?
No, Matt, they were supposed to make moves that would have kept the team competitive. I guess to the new breed that is a concept that is very hard to comprehend. I do indeed love the comments from posters that want to beleive that there is no move that can help a team that is one of the worst in the game. If you can’t help the team than that team must be one of the best ever. Is it Matt?
Guess what? Maybe if you guys played like men and stopped crying like babies your manger wouldn’t be saying these things. Maybe if you guys showed some heart, and played like you cared and these remaining games meant something to you, he wouldn’t feel the need to say these things. You oversensitive, spoiled babies! Really, you get to play baseball for a living! At least put your heart and soul into it and man up! Give it your all for crying out loud!
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah our manger is a meanie! STFU! And Play ball like you care! I would be playing my life off if I were you guys! Really?! You’re mad? too damned bad! Grow up! Man Up and work on earning your spot on this roster next season because none of you have and none of you should be guaranteed a job next year! Now shut up you crybabies!
BOOs UPON BURKHARDT FOR NEEDLESSLY OVERSTIRRING A BOILING POT OF PISS; IT’S OBVIOUS WRIGHT,DICKEY,NIESE,DAVIS,TEJADA HAVEN’T QUIT, ONE IOTA; HOWEVER IT’S EQUALLY OBVIOUS THEY ARE ALL JUST AS FRUSTRATED AS COLLINS & EVERY DIEHARD METFAN OUT HERE. THERE ARE THOSE CHOOSING TO BOMBARD HUDGENS’ APPROACH AS HITTING INSTRUCTOR; HOWEVER, NO ONE WAS THROWING ANYTHING BUT FLOWERS HIS DIRECTION BEFORE THE POST ASG COLLAPSE. SO, HE DEVISED A METHODOLOGY THAT HAD MEDIOCRE TALENT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF SUPERIOR STARTING PITCHING TO USE PATIENCE AT THE PLATE AGAINST THE LESS VIABLE ROTATIONS OF MANY OPONENTS; UNFORETUNATELY THE OPOSITION ADJUSTED IT’S ATTACK PLAN AGAINST THOSE SAME HUDGEN’S MOLDED, PATIENT BATTERS WHO, UNFORTUNATELY ARE NOT TALENTED OR EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO HAVE COUNTERED, ON RTHEIR OWN, WITH MORE AGGRESSIVE ABs
IN MY OPINION THIS SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON IS THE LEAGUE’S COUNTER APPROACH RESULTS AGAINST A”CHEAP”, UNVETTED, INEXPERIENCED LESS TALENTED LINEUP
WITH THE ENTIRE ROSTER SALARIED BY A 93-94M PAYROLL WITH ONLY 3 PLAYERS(WRIGHT,BAY,SANTANA) REPRESENTING $57M LEAVING ONLY $37M TO ACCOMODATE THE REMAINING PLAYERS THESE “DISCOUNTED METS” SIMPLY ARE THE LOWEST PAID MLB TEAM REMAINING AS A FRANCHISE WHILE THE “FAN’S LAST” PERSPECTIVE OWNERSHIP INSULTS EVERYONE’S INTELLIGENCE BY APPEARING CONCERNED FOR THE PRODUCT SULLYING UP CITIFIELD’S EXPANSES.
NOT UNTIL THE FANS OUST THE WILPONS WILL NY HAVE RETURNED TO NATIONAL LEAGUE BASEBALL CREDIBLITY AND I BELIEVE IT WILL TAKE A TREMENDOUS SACRIFICE BY NY FANS TO FULLY OUST THESE “PRETENTIOS FOOLS BY EMBARASSING MLB, BUD SELIG, THE WILPONS ASND ALL INVOLVED IN THE PERPETRATION OF THIS CHARADE BY BOYCOTTING THE 2013 ASG;
NOT ATTEDING GAMES, NO ONE CARES MUCH ABOUT IS NOT GOING TO OUST THESE WILPONS ANYMORE THAN POLITE TAX DEBATE IN PARLIMENT WAS GOING TO KICK THE REDCOATS OUT OF “THE COLONIES”
THE WILPONS, THE ENTIRE BASEBALL WORLD SHOULD BE PUT ON NOTICE THAT THE ECONOMIC SUCCESS OF THIS UPCOMING ALLSTAR EXTRAVEGANZA IS HINGING UPON THE EXTENT THE WILPONS PROVIDE A MEANINGFUL COMPETITIVE PRODUCT ON THE FIELD COME APRIL!
CONSIDERING THE EXTREMELY HIGH COST OF WORKING IN NYC, THE 100M PAYROLL MARK IS LUDICROUS & A MORE APROPRIATE SCALED $`120M LEVEL SHOULD BE PROVIDED
Always love a good rant, especially when it’s spot on.
Agree 100% with what you said upfront about KB, Hudgens and the majority of the payroll tied up in three players. That in itself was not really the big problem but trying to field the rest of the team with about 37 mil is. That and Bay doesn’t produce.
It’s on the Wilpons first and foremost.
If only they had not backed out of that deal with Einhorn. That would have been a win/win for us fans.
Sorry 62 but I must point out there were quite a few of us who were throwing veggies at the Hitting coach early in the year (pre ASG) over the passivity some batters were showing at the plate.
The only ones throwing Flowers on anyone this year are the same ones throwing flowers on Alderson 24/7/52 and now that the bloom has come off the flowers they have broken out a supply of excuses to throw instead!
Hey guys,
Gotta admit I do feel good having been the first to bring up Kevin Burkhardt’s comments. But beyond the words, remember I also pointed out how his voice sounded when he was saying it. He didn’t seem to just be reporting but with his tone of voice came across as if he was agreeing with it.
We know how demoralized things are, but a friend of mine forwarded me this article which even caught me off-guard as to how things are at Citi Field. Wonder if Clayton noticed the same thing earlier this week?
It’s a good read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/sports/baseball/mets-ending-season-that-has-questioned-fan-loyalty.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=all&_r=0
I just don’t understand how anybody, after reading all the documented evidence presented over the past few months, can believe this is a front office with a vision and that moves were made in the best interests of the club.
Or saying that the players don’t understand things like the front office and thus dismissing them feeling 1) they were kicked in the teeth, 2( they believed in themselves, 3) knowing the front office had no faith in them was hard to swallow and 4) just one baby step has been taken to build a winner.
What Sandy Alderson is doing is quite common in business. Unfortunately, those principles apply to industries which produce commodities or provide services and if economics forces them to take losses, re-structure themselves, it is done without public fanfare. It is different when those principles are applied to professional sports franchises, especially in a big market. There is a difference being a consumer and being a fan. Consumers don’t follow a product or a company with the day to day passion of a fan.
Even teams building for the future can still compete in the present – or, at least try to.
People believe in what they WANT to believe Joey thats the issue….
Just as people who know thier company is filing for bankruptcy believe all is going to be well and they will still have a job and don’t jump ship until they get thier pink slip from the company!
People prefer to believe everything will be just fine even when all the evidence points to the contrary!
It makes them feel better!
Why do you think people love reality TV and shows about rednecks catching aliigators or living on mountain tops?
Because when they watch it they can say to themselves Hell I though my life was bad but I could be them!
We do what seemingly makes us feel better so in this case believing everything is fine and closing your eyes to the truth makes them feel better.
And they yell at those who remind them of the truth because it busts up the dreamy state they want to be in!
.
Hi Metsie,
And the argument is always made about the team collapsing after the all star break in each of the past three seasons.
But what is not mentioned is that nothing was done to help avoid that by strengthening the club in any of those years. We saw it coming in 2010 when Omar did nothing after getting Bay in the winter. Coincidence that finances were starting to fall apart? When in 2011 a team is still discimated with injuries and despite starting off at 5-14 finds itself in the middle of the wild card hunt we saw not help coming but shipping off it’s top hitter and closer.
And this season when our bullpen was killing us all season, nothing was done to help that, even when it was obvious help was needed despite us being tied for the lead in the wild card. As mentioned before, both last season and this season we saw the other players PRESSING to do so much because the front office did so little.
I would rather go down fighting than go down without even a whimper. That’s the real thrill of victory and agony of defeat. This is not an agonizing end to the season due to a competitive loss. This is a disgusting way to end the season for the third year in a row due to a front office that didn’t attempt to keep us in the game.
How many All Stars has DePo drafted in his career?
According to Fonzie none. DePo has been a GM, assistant GM, and in charge of payer development and scouting for two decades. But he never had anything to do with drafts, scouting or anything else player related.
Hi Smart,
Don’t hold it against anyone for implying that despite DePodesta having been a general manager, assistant general manager and one in charge of player development and scouting for two decades he has had nothing to do with drafts, scouting or anything else player related. There are some who say the same thing about Bill Rigney and insist that one with no professional knowledge of the game could study Bill James and immediately and do those things instead.
“When you inherit a mess like he did and are forced to cut payroll at record levels, to expect a team to improve is ridiculous.”
Hi Fonzie,
Will agree with you half way.
I don’t think Alderson inherited such a mess that a few key additions – instead of the inexpensive players he admitted he got – could have made the Mets a contender for the entire 2011 season.
As it was, the near dozen players he added did nothing but hurt the team and yet despite that group of “inexpensive” players, those that he “inherited” went on something like a 49-36 clip after a horrible 5-14 start. There is no question that had a better group of of players been acquired over the winter their overall record could have been much better than when it hit it’s peak. Better players obtained during the off season, combined without the subsequent getting rid of KRod and Beltran, and the team that played so well for so long (again, despite the mediocrity obtained by our GM) could have certainly held it’s own with St. Louis and Atlanta in that wild card race (the injuries to Niese and Murphy can’t count because they were unforeseen).
But I agree with you that when being forced to cut payroll at such record levels, it is indeed ridiculous to expect a team to improve. We didn’t realize it at the time but the signs were there for when help was needed in 2010 as we were fighting Atlanta for first place in the division, Omar did nothing as well. This is because the general manager might have changed but the owners – and their financial problems – didn’t.
How were they bringing in enough players to make last years team contend when he had to fill 13 roster spots with 10 millions dollars? That wasn’t a 90 win team he took over. That was a 79 win team with a lot of holes who’s number 1 starter didn’t throw a pitch. It had 4 dead weight contracts Perez, Castillo, Bay and Santana and 135 million dollars commited to the roster before one move was made, coming off a year when 50 million was lost and even more was projected for 2011.
Omar did nothing in 2010 and I thought he did the right thing by not doing anything either. That team wasn’t good enough either and making a move for an unrealistic shot at a wildcard could’ve made things worse. My only point was that the team was in a similar situation to the last 2 years and no help came either. Selling would’ve been better than buying.
“How were they bringing in enough players to make last years team contend when he had to fill 13 roster spots with 10 millions dollars?”
BY getting more than hust Wheeler for Three sent packing All Stars!
Well he should’ve traded Wright, Reyes and Pagan when he got here. That was his mistake. Then he sold low on Pagan after his bad year last year. He couldn’t have traded Reyes at the deadline last year because he had just come off another hamstring pull and wasn’t playing well. nobody is going to trade for an injured player for a stretch run. He did very well for Beltran. Getting a top pitching prospect for 2 months of Beltran when he had no compensation for the team acquiring him was a job well done. K-Rod with that ridiculous option wasn’t getting much back. Nobody is giving up top prospects for a former allstar with a 17.5 million dollar option. If he didn’t have that option hanging over him the return would’ve been better and more teams would’ve been in on him. If he was still an allstar he’d still be closing for somebody. He had to accept arbitration because nobody wanted him. The Mets did well just finding a taker for him and the way he’s pitched this year proved he’s not only not worth the 17.5 but not even the 8 he got to set up.
“How were they bringing in enough players to make last years team contend when he had to fill 13 roster spots with 10 millions dollars?”
Hi Fonzie,
Wasn’t that the one point I agreed with you?
Joey you said if better players were brought in we could of hd a better record. Yeah, sure, you could say that about every team but when you’re forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel you have no margin for error. You have to make sure you scrape the bottom of the right barrel. A lot of people here think those are the types of players he wants to persue rather than the fact that he didn’t have much choice. The day of his introductory press conference, during interiew he basically told everybody that the team already had a lot of money commited to the roster before he made a single move. He made it pretty clear that they wouldn’t be players for any big name free aents because of the lack of payroll flexiblity. It’s not like he had 3 young studs in the starting rotation like Bill eane had when he went to K-mart for players that got a book written about. He got a book written about with mostly players that Aldersons farm system left him with. Maybe Sandy can get a book written about him because of the players Omar left him with.
HI Fonzie,
I agreed with you that scaping the bottom of the barrel could not work – and as we know, it didn’t. There wasn’t no margin of error with the players he got – it was a forgone conclusion and that proved itself when it was the players he did inherit were doing it all on their own through mid season and that failure was going to catch up with them due that supporting cast scraping from the bottom of the barrel.
There was no choise but to put one’s hand in the bottom of that barell.