10
2012
MMO Fan Shot: Patience is a Virtue? Not In Flushing It’s Not…
An article by 
We have all heard the phrase good things come to those that wait, but the phrase really only works if you seem to have a plan for the future that you intend to wait for.
Patience works if you have a plan. But I see no plan at work with this organization.
Many have tried to tell me the plan was to rebuild the “AWFUL” minor league system. But that plan was usurped the second we failed to sign half the guys we selected in the draft. If half a draft class was not good enough to try and push the guys we had then the only thing you could take from that is that the guys we had are pretty damn good because half a draft class wasn’t worth replacing the ones that existed.
In two years the only addition of any significance has been pitching prospect Zack Wheeler, and that cost us a player who is among the top five in the National League in a dozen different categories and having an MVP-caliber season. He would have cost us only $13 million to bring back which leads to the next excuse people run to…
Others have said that the plan was to “get the budget in order”. Well, we did cut $55 million from the budget and yet “we are still too poor” is the mantra.
Lets assume we could make Bay’s contract disappear. Will we be able to afford the team then? Just Barely? Can we buy anything with that $16MM? Well if the folks who think we are broke are actually right, then the answer is NO. We just don’t spend that money and we move on with no more than a $75 million dollar payroll for next season. Is that something worth waiting for and looking forward to?
Patience is a gift that is freely given to someone provided that they have showed us they have a plan, and that the plan is sound, and that there is a some sort of reward at the end of the rainbow to reward our patience.
But I see no plan. I see no rainbow. Hell I don’t even see a light at the end of the tunnel. We’re in a dark cave and we are walking deeper and deeper into it with no exit in sight.
If the plan was to rebuild then there would be some evidence of it by signing most of our draft selections and including paying slot price for our second rounder who was unsigned over a difference on $60 thousand dollars.
To the folks who said the farm is still in shambles, apparently in the last two years we could have replaced the bottom 34 players with 34 new players that we drafted, but opted not to sign them. The only assumption was that none of them were seen as upgrades to what we had already. By the way, the unsigned players by the Mets in this year’s draft was the most among all 30 MLB teams.
Also if we were really building for the future, the few Free Agent signings we HAVE SIGNED, would not be one year or two year deals for players from the scrap heap and still hanging around in January due to a lack of interest from other teams. Rebuilding teams would have targeted players and signed contracts that would solve a position of need for a much longer time period to provide a stability until the kids are ready. Then you could trade them for even more kids to keep the minor league train a rollin’.
If the plan was to get the budget in order, well then why did they announce the end of the season two July’s in a row?
The best way to solve budgetary problems is to MAKE more money not save more money. We saved money this year and yet we are still reportedly $23 million in the red this season instead of $70 million. The difference? The $55 million in payroll that Alderson has shed since he took over the reins. Looks like he still has some slashing to do.
There is no plan and it’s easy to see… Look no further than the moves that have been made just this year alone. We did well in the draft the optimists say, just not good enough to keep half the players we selected.
We are Buyers was the message from April through July, and of course the Mets collapsed right on cue in the days leading up to the 31st. Of course they did, after all they lost their ace, their closer, and their number four starter with none of those casualties being addressed. Well that’s not totally accurate, they did initially replace Santana and Gee with Miguel Batista and Chris Schwinden until they were each designated for assignment two weeks later.
I’m sorry, but what we’ve witnessed this season is not a plan and there is no underlying logic here to make our patience pay off. All they are doing is reacting to events as they occur… Sometimes. There’s nothing proactive going on here right now.
There is no plan, unless you consider waiting for a miracle to rain down upon us as a plan. Waiting is neither a plan nor a strategy.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 22 | 18 | .550 | - |
| Nationals | 22 | 19 | .537 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 19 | 22 | .463 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 15 | 23 | .395 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 30 | .268 | 11.5 |
Last updated: 05/17/2013
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Metsie, the CORE salute you….
I’ve said this all along, the guy in charge is here to slash payroll, not to be a genius as some had predicted. this is a really, really sad time for mets fans. and it’s gonna get worst.
He’s nothing but a bean counter Alex. Thats what he knows and thats what he does!
Eisenhardt was the marketing genius at Oakland back in the day and Sandy merely made sure the checkbook was balanced.
Cutting Salary is only half the job. And cutting salary only works if you cut the bad salary and keep the good. All we have cut is good salary, the bad (Bay and in some small way Santana) remains.
We stand to lose 23 Mil this year. Even if we manage to keep Wright for the same money he makes now and get rid of Bay’s pay we still fall 7 Mil short on the profitability side!
Because Attendance is the REAL problem and has been largely ignored by this front office!
If we could somehow purge Bay and Santana we would get rid of 41 Mil in Payroll.
Minus the 23 Mil in losses when all is said and done with no raises and the same attendance, we would have 18 Left to spend to get someone good!
18 Million of “PAYROL FLEXABILITY” is the goal we are working towards!
That doesn’t get you much to make this team a winner and most of it will evaporate to keep Wright and Dickey and Davis and the few guys that are here that anyone wants to build around.
Time to work on increasing attendance because NOTHING creates payroll flexability as well as INCREASED REVENUE!
That should be the plan, but this FO seems to do everything it can to HURT that attendance instead!
great post
Thanks Mitch!
Great job, Metsie!
You know what’s going to follow right? The most Herculean defense of a GM that I have ever seen since I started watching this team.
Oh Im sure….Just as soon as they finish thier production meeting at SaveSandy.com and have a script they all can get onboard with I expect a full court press against this piece!
Thank Bud Selig for being friends to the Wilpons instead of doing what is in the best interest of baseball.
Exactly. Wish he ran the Wilpons out — great work investing all of your money in one person… smart.
“… we failed to sign half the guys we selected in the draft.”
Metsie you’ve made an interesting point but not every potential draft selection has equal value. The Mets signed 6 of top 7 selections, and 13 of the top 15. The guys they signed have far and away a better chance of eventually helping the Mets than those they passed on.
When the Mets eliminated one of their farm clubs for economic reasons, there was less need to sign as many players. Starting in round 25, the Mets signed only two players and didn’t sign 14 of them. Statistically the chances of any of the lower ranked players ever spending time in the big leagues is close to nil. There are some notable historical exceptions of course, but they reinforce the probability that if a player isn’t darned good when he is younger, he won’t be later on.
Des there is only ONE reason to not need guys you drafted and thats is the guys you have already are better!
And if they are then why do we constantly hear the Minor Leagues are no good and we have no one worth trading?
Some of those kids would have some trade value next year to a team who had him on thier draft board but couldn’t get them because we drafted them. And if not them then one of the 30 other guys we already have that we would no longer have room for would have had that value.
There isn’t a team who has even built from within that said I pass on as many guys they drafted as we did!
NONE!
Why not change your name from Fan Shot to S**t Fan!
I guess that from where you sit it is easy to second guess!
I loved Carlos Beltran too but he like Jose Reyes was an injury risk and even if healthy was not going to get us into the playoffs with our pitching problems. Once again, the future of this team lies with the young stud arms of Harvey, and Wheeler!
THAT’S THE PLAN JACK!
Alan get your tongue out of Sandy’s butt. Calling out a GM’s failures is not second guessing. But being Sandy’s buttwipe is even worse, you idiot.
Oh No I second guessed the moves Maniac…About a day after they happened! LOL
Alan obviously hasn’t read most of what I have written since a year ago July!
WTF?? New slurpers are coming in by the day!?? these people love sandy to some extend it’s downright pathetic.. What plan? Save money so the wilpons can own a team? Sandy’s not here to build, he’s here to slash payroll..
How good is Harbey and Wheeler going to be with no run support because we can’t afford to keep Wright or trade him away to refill a MiL system that could have been filled merely by signing half our draft picks?
I’m not totally up on the draft rules but doesn’t a certain amount of the money not spent on the draft get rolled into next year if your picks didn’t sign?
I am up on the draft rules! They had up to $1.2 million more to spend and only $200K of it gets carried over. The point is to spend it, not get rollover points at 20 cents on the dollar. That’s why no other team does it save Houston and Kansas City.
Great job Metsie. Once Bay’s contract is off the books it will not get re-invested. Just like Beltran, just like K-Rod’ just like Reyes. It’s just more BS who has the ears of deluded Mets fans. The draft example should have garnered outrage from the fanbase instead they gave him hugs and kisses. If not for a franchise that desperately wanted a bat to make run for the [post season, and had tons of great pitching to spare, we wouldn’t have even gotten Wheeler. It was a perfect storm and it didn’t matter who the GM was Wheeler was going for a big bat regardless. All it cost us was the team’s best hitter. Actually the most complete player the franchise has ever had. A player who has yet to be replaced a year and a half later.
The sad thing about Bay’s contract is even if we could wave a magic wand and make it just dissappear they would still be 7 Mil short of turing a profit!
Not even cutting Bay’s contract will bring us to profitability!
YEs he does suck because he hasn’t found a way to get rid of them while other teams do!
All he has been able to get rid of are GOOD players!
We can argue about Reyes’s attitude and the value of stolen bases and his health issues and “Crawford Money” all we want…but the real reason why Sandy let Reyes walk was about saving money.
And for all the people who say Tejada is just as good as Reyes for much less money…you haven’t been looking at the numbers…
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=200&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0
I really tike Rubin, don’t get me wrong…but Reyes is once again in the top three SS’s in the NL (in the top five of all MLB) and Tejada is just a middle of the road average SS.
Thanks for the comment USMF. Actually, one of our writers did look at the numbers on Tejada which also show a troubling trend.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/09/shortstop-ruben-tejada-has-been-on-a-downward-trend-since-may.html
In fact I just looked and saw the post only has about 3,000 reads which is incredibly low for us, so I’m going to re-post it now. Saturday nights is not a good time for posting. I’m forever telling our writers to save their good stuff for M-F. lol
Thanks Joe, read the article, I did miss it and I was surprised at how far back the down trend on Tejada has been.
One interesting note on Reyes Joe D & USMF. His improvement for Miami started to happen when 2 things occurred.
#1 No more Hanley
#2 Batting 3rd in the order.
Now, I heard Evan Roberts say on WFAN that Reyes complained about batting 3rd for NYM. I personally do not remember that but I’m curious if anybody else does?
I know for a fact a lot of Mets fans hated the idea. But did Jose?
To drive the point home in 2012
Batting 1st: .274/.339/.403
Batting 3rd: .302/.355/.515
Yes, I remember it, it was 2010. He whined and cried about it the entire time. Even though at the time it was the best thing for the team. Perhaps he has matured. I always said that he had the ability to be so much more than a lead-off hitter and could actually develop into a very good #3 hitter with low strikeouts, good average and good pop. What an asset that would be in the 3 spot.
I remember the controversy with Reyes batting 3rd on the Mets.
Even though Jerry did try it for a short amount of time, it was reported that Reyes was not to pleased with the idea. At the time, he viewed himself as a lead off hitter and preferred to remain one.
I don’t think his numbers were very good batting third but if I remember correctly, it was a very small sample size. I don’t think they gave him a fair shot at it.
Yeah it was only 20 games and Jerry was desperately trying to save his job. Most likely he was told to put Reyes back in the 1 spot instead of doing what was best for the team.
It allowed them to bat Pagan leadoff where he was very effective, Castillo 2nd where he was uh.. Castillo and Wright 5th to protect Jason Bay back when there was hope for Bay.
Reyes did bat third, but reluctantly so. I remember him saying he felt like he was being removed from his home. When the plan failed he made it clear he never wanted to do it but that he dont write the lineup cards.
just seems interesting to me that 2 years ago it was a big deal and he hated it, and this year it seems to have revived his season.
Maybe Jerry threatened to cut him and Gullien threatened him with communism?
Yup he never gave it a fair shot and the Mets caved.
Problem is, when the guy was brought here, you had EVERYONE in here pretty much telling us how this was the right move, we’re gonna go into the right direction, the guy is a vet, he finds undervalue players like no other etc… the CORE believed.. We had no choice, i didn’t know anything about the guy, then the signing of FA and the drafting of rule V guys started happening, and i started wondering what exactly is there to like about SA? of course, i was called a hater, impatient, marlin fan, etc because of it. fast forward to today, in which the mets are dead in the waters, looking at a second straight losing season under sandy, and the slashing of the payroll seem to be more important and still you’d find the slurpers of his making excuses as to why the mets are in the state they’re in. Nobody knows whether harvey and wheeler will be pretty good for years to come. and just like beltran and reyes, they too can become (Knock on wood they don’t) injury risks. it’s just the way things are in baseball, prospects can not be predicted. in 2015 we may be contenders again, for as long as sandy and none of the goons are anywhere near this team..
GOing in the right direction or having a good day my ass!!
Here is my prediction for t future Alex…
Sandy will cut cut cut and at some point they will be at break even.
Sandy will get fired soon after with nothing but Harvey and Wheeler to build around (All the rest will have to go to balance the books)
And then we will get a new GM who will be charged with getting attendance up and we go right back to what Omar did that everyone thinks was the reason we are where we are or WORSE we go back to the days o Harazin and the best team money can buy making Wheeler, Harvey and Familia, Generation K2!
And at that point every Met fan will agree Sandy ruined this team!
Most already know that the guy we thought we were getting is not as good as they thought!
Even the slurpers know it they just are so invested in him at this point with over a year of animosity and defense of him that they can’t possibly reverse course and say what they know is true because of what they will be put through for admitting they were wrong!
If they hadn’t acted as smugly and as condescending as they had to those who had doubt and saw what was coming they might not have to commit to a position they know is just wrong but have to go with it!
I expect to see a lot of Nick changes to happen in the next two or three years!
Cause some have put all thier credibility into a GM that didn’t do a single thing they claimed he would and fought those who pointed it out as if thier lives depended on it!
Alex,
I ask you for once second to think rationally and objectively. In other words take off your Hater Hat (ie dunce cap or Marlin’s Hat whatever you like). And tell me one 1. Who your favorite Met’s GM was? and 2 who you would have rather of had (that was a candidate) over Alderson?
I completely agree that his handling of the bullpen was nothing short of a failure (even though I think a couple of the guys Rauch and Ramirez just had off years that comes with being a reliever but no excuse for the rest that he brought in) but I think what you and your so called Queers I mean CORE fail to recognize is that he hasn’t even been here 2 years yet! You talk about him not revealing his plan, do you even remember Frank Cashen? He was the George Young of baseball. You rip “Moneyball” constantly! Have you seen the A’s? Do you realize that Sabermetrics, while at times gets a bit carried away is now an absolute fact of baseball life and is employed to different levels by every franchise.
You’re venom is truly clouding you. You remind me of (I don’t want to turn this into a political debate) the insane ultra Conservatives who went on record that their biggest goal was to make certain that Obama didn’t get re-elected! No mater what Alderson (and to a slightly lesser degree D. Wright) does you will always be that lunatic on your soapbox screaming about how this one sucks and that one sucks not ever mentioning how bad it had gotten in such a short time under Omar (a man that I VERY BADLY wanted to succeed and wish him great success.)
Stop with your childish playground bullying of calling people stupids made up names (it’s easy to be a tough guy in Cyberspace) and try for once to be objective.
Sloatsburg — Don’t ask too much of Alex. He lives in a world of silly labels and group identity – CORE, slurpers, etc. It’s called terminal immaturity.
first of all, i don’t hate the guy. is it hate to call the man a failure as a GM with proven facts? the guy has been a loser, 8 straight losing season as a GM and counting? He’s supposed to find guys who are good at a low cost, and even at that he’s been a failure; yet somehow i get called a hater and that i am not objective for criticizing his poor job? Not sure whether you were a part of MMO around the time that the guy was hired, but we had to endure endless articles about the guy being a genius, the right choice, the face of the franchise, the players he acquires (including brad f’ing eamus)\ having a good day, yet those same people who were wrong as hell are now defending him for the same thing we said THEN which was that the guy was hired to get the owners some financial stability and get out not to build a winner. the man has NEVER said he’s here to win championships unlike fran cashen.
also, about the A’s. go and check how they’re winning games and come back to me. They are doing anything but moneyballing .. Low OBP and a lot of steals… plus pitching…
Alex,
You still haven’t answered any of the questions. Or re cognized the fact that that it’s been less than 2 years or the fact that the big ticket players that are killing our payroll were NOT brought here by Alderson. I’m not blindly defending the guy but please acknowledge the fact that he walked into a TERRIBLE situation that at times got worse because of possible legal wranglings. If your venom (and the rest of your “CORE” (man I hate that name!)) were directed more at ownership I would be in agreement because I feel that they are the slippery ones that keep moving the target.
Ok, you wanna blame ownership for not adding payroll i get it, but the whole problem i got is that he’s supposed to be a guy who finds undervalue player and he has done a terrible job at that. he’s gotten this team to be worse.
“I ask you for once second to think rationally and objectively”
We ask the dsame thing from the slurpers but we never get it!
In answer to your questions both #1 and #2 have the same answer…
Bing Devine!
I know most of you are too young to remember him and all you have to grasp to are the 86ers built by Cashen!
Cashen was a good GM but hardly great!
And his Rebuild with Kids was not so much of his own doing but the fact the team was so bad for so long he had roughly 10 1st round picks and 5 Top10 Overall picks to build with and all he had to show for them was Gooden and Strawberry!
Compare that to what the Nats have gotten during thier long losing sessions….
Cashen also is the guy who brought you Juan Samuel and was the “CONSULTANT” in those years that bought you Bobby Bo, Vince Coleman and thew worst team money could buy!
In the end as much as he is the only one that anyone under the age of 30 can remember bringing a winner here he was not the GOD of baseball those same people make him out to be!
He won ONE WS! He is still a better GM than Sandy will ever be but the 86ers were really the product of a decade of ‘EXTREME SUCK” that led to lots of high picks that Cashen could easily trade to get the Vets those kids that we had needed to win because they had leadership and examples of what winning players do to win games.
Sandy is not even a tenth as good as Cashen was and Cashen was only half as good as guys like Devine.
You can hide behind the “TWO YEAR” excuse all you want but ask yourself (and be honest with yourself) what has actually gotten better in those two years.
Count the players added over those two years and tell me how many players per year we have gotten that have improved this team.
Then tell us how long it will take at that rate to create a winner and SWEAR to us all your willing to wait the 20 Years it’s going to take for Sandy to succeed if just given enough time!
Wheeler for one. Im sure there are hidden gems in the minors that will turn up soon. Which brings me to another point. And please spare me the rants about how he didn’t draft them. It’s not always who you got but what you didn’t give up. I like that it APPEARS that our system is staring to develop some players instead of either rushing them or trading them away for aging expensive vets. I DON’T HIDE from or behind anything, I truly believe this team will take a very big step next season (a winning record and at least in the conversation for post season) through acquisitions and development If that does not happen then I have to reconsider my defense of the FO.
I am on the record (I will still not spew the venom, thats just not me) and have given you my uneducated projections/expectations. I believe that many are entirely to quick to judge and therefore give merit to the stupidity that is “You can’t rebuild in NY”.
Another point that I’m not sure gets made enough is putting too much weight into what a GM or Manager or Owner, etc. say with regards to expectations. They have to sell tickets too.
So thats it…Wheeler is it thats all he has done in two years!
Thats the reason to give him more time because in 20 years he might come up with 10 more players?
Hidden Gems in the Minors? I’m sure there are!
But what if they are no better than all the guys we are giving away today in the name of Salary cuts?
You want us all to be patient with a guy who in two years got ONE player!
And is relying on the kids from that AWFUL GM you all complain about for the rest of his plan to work?
You are hiding from the truth!
You think getting ONE player in two years is doing something!
And you are hiding from the fact of just how poor a result that is!
More talent has left than has come in!
and the more time you allow that to happen the worse your team is getting!
Your hiding from that reality!
SSDD
Yesbecause anyone who is sane knows Sandy is great and has this team on its way to the World Series right Srt?
Metsie, I believe what she is saying is that we have this discussion everyday where you make these same points everyday and the counter to those points are made everyday and the rebuttal to the counters are made everyday and the reply to the rebuttals are made every day and the responses to the replies are made everyday and the same points are made to the replies everyday.
Bingo.
And the counter points to his post are fine. It’s the jumping off point from there that gets a little too childish and even disgusting for my taste.
Yes and you make the excuses everyday for accepting the degradation of our team!
Well not always the same excuses as many of your past excuses have been abaondoned and shot down by subsequent actions by Sandy exposing the fact that what you believe is happening isn’t REALLY happening!
You thought he was rebuilding the Minors and from within then let half his picks walk unsigned…
You though he was going to Cut Salary to get Payroll flexability so he could sign better Free Agents and even if he cuts bay today and doesn’t have to pay him he is still 6-7 Mil in the loss column which means no payroll flexability!
You thought he was going to trade good players for multiple prospects and to dat all he has done is trade one really good guy for a Pitcher!
The other marginally good guy he traded he got USELES CRAP FOR!
Yes it’s the same discussion everyday from us!
Because we keep making our case and you guys keep coming up with new ewxcuses for why things are getting better only to be forced to abandon them when Sandy’s action prove otherwise!
You know when this repetitive arguments end?
When you excuse makers stop making them and admit Sandy isn’t building a thing he is merely the Demolition crew to tear down the team for the NEXT contractor to come in a and build!
So all this talk about what Sandy is going to bring us is just bull!
He isn’t bringing anything he is just clearing the way until he gets fired for someone else to build!
Lets see that was the rebuttal to the counters in our cycle.
Well I keep asking for you to list all the names of the kids who will win us a Playoff you claim is coming and I just again asked you to note how much payroll flexability you expect Sandy to bring you in 2015…
Got any answers to that or is this just your usual I’ll make excuses and hope Sandy doesn’t do something that exposes it as wrong the way the Build from Within and Payroll flexabilty excuses fell arpt by not signing half a draft and not getting any payroll flexability!
Metsie — Asking trs or srt for the list all the names of the kids who will win us a playoff spot would be easier if you could name the 2015 roster. You can’t so why should they be able? They are showing faith in an administration that you decry. Each side is working with multiple variables, most of which are not now known by anybody.
Please not let contrasting viewpoints devolve into another Last Man Standing issue.
Well I keep asking for you to list all the names of the kids who will win us a Playoff you claim is coming and I just again asked you to note how much payroll flexability you expect Sandy to bring you in 2015…
Got any answers to that or is this just your usual I’ll make excuses and hope Sandy doesn’t do something that exposes it as wrong the way the Build from Within and Payroll flexabilty excuses fell arpt by not signing half a draft and not getting any payroll flexability!
Des you really need to listen to what I’m saying and have said…
THERE IS NO KID that will put us in the playoffs! THATS MY POINT!
There is no payroll flexability because weare not cutting the payroll that could easily be replaced with better players, we are instead cutting the salary that cant’t easily be replaced instead!
Thats the point here! The plan that some folks seem to think exists isn’t actually doing what they expect it to do!
We are not and have not rebuilt the Minors at all!
We got one kid who shows promise for a a guy who we could have traded and resigned who is playing some damn good baseball without losing ANYTHING in the proccess for the rough cost of 13 Million which is the amount we paid towards our Bull pen for the next two years!
And none of that money appears to have helped much!
We are not creating payroll flexability here to spend on what we need either!
We cut 55 Mil and even if we cut 16 Mil more (Bay) we still lose money!
Cutting Santana would put us in the black about 18 Mil, Who are we getting for that?
This is the year we all find out where this team is headed.
Either they resign Wright and Dickey or we are done for another decade!
And that means Sandy will have failed!
Will anyone here admit it?
From the fact that two years in excuses and HOPE are the only arguiments being made for him I suppose not even AFTER he gets fired will they admit it!
And then the argument will be how much credit everyone wants to give Sandy for what the next guy dies!
Vicious cyle no?
Metsie — I’ll expand your view by saying there is no one player who will save our bacon. Just say it without the 16 appended paragraphs. Time is precious and I skim many posts because they don’t get to the point the writer wants to make.
Ah, and now we have the reply to the rebuttal. Like clockwork. What is great about this one is I don’t even have to say anything anymore. I just say reply or rebuttal and you can’t help but to continue.
Yep! Because I like to twist the knife after sticking it into you!
I was wrong below. This is the reply to the rebuttal and the following comment was the beginning of the cycle again.
I’m not hiding from anything Metsie! I thought I gave a quick response and even included my personal expectations of this team and said that if he did not meet them then I will to be one of the ones who think he isn’t doing the job (I will never be part of anything that calls itself “The CORE” though) I’m sorry that I don’t believe EXACTLY the way you do but once again I gave you my expectations and I’m willing to go on record. Unlike you I didn’t call anyone names or insulting other’s opinions. That’s what adults do. Again Cyberspace is full of the fake tough!!!
Sloatsburg, I have deleted your comment in which you used the word “queer” to insult another user. We do not allow sexist or racist remarks here.
So that should mean that we have gotten rid of slurper as well, right?
I think even you can agree that the 2 words are on completely different levels. They did take the slurping smiley out of the shout box if that makes you happy.
Yeah, one is much worse but it depends on the context of how the other is used. Considering I have been told that I am ridding David Wright while holding my Sandy Alderson doll, I think it’s pretty clear what the inclination is. Not my problem, I stopped teaching middle school long ago and middle school rhetoric is saved for the ones not intelligent or articulate enough to come up with a higher level of vocabulary.
Well I would say that Sandy Doll gem of a comment is probably up there as well. Same with the one about a Tuna Casserole pointed towards a female poster.
The slurping one is really just a pointed way to say “drinking the koolaid”. It was funny at first and has grown a little tired because it has been used so much. I think it is an improvement from the other types of comments frankly.
Yeah, it had it’s origins in the kool-aid but of course 90% of the posters here might not even know what the origins of the kool-aid comment is. However, some of the classic posters here picked up on it to have a very different meaning than kool-aid.
No Salty you have it all wrong. Slurping means slurping on Sandy’s balls. It was used in that term in the shoutbox. It had nothing to do with Koolaid.
Yup, it was originally the koolaide but unfortunately some of the users didn’t know that and picked up on it as the sexual reference and then took off with it. Most likely because they don’t get the koolaide reference, before their time.
Yes you included your personal expectations of the team just gave absoloutly no indication of how Sandy was going to get you there!
Being an Optimist is not an opinion and it’s cretainly not an evaluation!
It’s just what it is a WISH!
Everyone wishes for the team to get better it’s just that some of us don’t pray when they see the bus about to mow them down hoping for Divine intervention which seems to be Sandy’s plan and that of his followers!
Some of us get off our knees and get the hell out of the way instead because we know ACTION is better than WAITING!
Oh I didn’t think I needed to repeat myself (and No I will not waste my time to look back on any past post where I mentioned this.) Gaining payroll AND maintaining flexability, tossing the old and overpaid (remember Olie P., KRod, Castillo, etc.) trying to develop players instead of rushing them or trading them before their value is optimized. and Pitching although as I mentioned earlier he failed on the bullpen part of that so far. Metsie, I don’t know you but you sound like an intelligent individual but please tell me you believe that there are other opinions out there that differ from yours that at least have the probability of being accurate? And is it even remotely possible that 2 years may, in fact be a bit premature to turn an organization, and I mean any organization not just the Met’s or even just sports for that matter?
Sure there are actions that could be as successful as mine…
We aren’t doing them under this FO though…
What you say WOULD be a good plan…
I’m suggesting that nothing we have done to date suggests thats the actual plan!
We are ot cutting old overpaid players.
Beltran wasn’t overpaid and neither was reyes!
Bay is though is he gone yet?
Santana is when did he leave?
The next cut is likely Wright and Dickey are they old and overpaid?
And I ask you again what flexability? Were we flexible enough to replace our uinjured starting rotation?
Flexible enough to fix the pen we borke?
Flexible enough to go and buy the badly needed RH Power bat?
Even if we cut bay will we have payroll flexability?
The poroblem is Sloat that what you guys THINK is happening and waiting for isn’t happening and isn’t going to!
So your waiting for somthing that will never arrive with this Front Office!
What you say might very well be a good plan…If only Sandy was implementing it…
he’s not!
He’s just slashing and not doing any of the things you think he is doing!
Metsie,
To your many points.
We are (I assume you meant Not) cutting overpaid players.
Really? Castillo, Perez, and KRod don’t count? Or are you changing the rules as you’re going along of what cutting overpriced players means?
Look I’ve said it before I will say it again If your looking to stone ownership I will be the first in line and in throw as many stones as my arm will take and when my arm wears out I’ll start kicking them. But you cannot sit here in your right mind and say he did not cut payroll.
I never mentioned anything about Reyes. I loved Reyes and was said to see him go, but this is just my opinion here but after this year he strikes me as a bit of a Snake bitten player.
Beltran was NOT COMING BACK!!! We got the ABSOLUTE best we could for him. I love Beltran, infact he is one of my all time favorite Met’s and I tell all my SF Giant fan friends that he was not treated well by the mets and met fans. He will go down in history as one of the most overlooked/underappreciated Mets ever. That being said, Wheeler looks to be a STUD and if he’s close to being as good as advertised Sandy fleeced Sabean.
Bay and Santana still being on the team: Just curious, did you HONESTLY have this sentiment about Santana right after he pitched the no-hitte? It doesn’t really matter either way just curious. To your point I want Bay out of here in the worst possible way I’m a little more patient with Sanatana but if we could get something of good value for him I say go for it! Them being cut is completely out of the FO’s hands! As I said I have 0.00 love for ownership but how much more can we ask them to choke down financially when they are already $23mil in the red? I get that it’s not the fan’s problem but there is little the front office can do about that. I know what happened with the Dodgers and Red Sox but that is a once in a blue moon thisng. The Red Sox did give up a very good player in AGon and I’m not so sure we had something they wanted.
Wright and Dickey being next to go. I can’t even debate that with you because now you’re predicting the future and unfortunately I do not possess that gift. I envy you that’s a pretty cool talent to have. That being said I believe every situation is treated differently and because there may have been similar things said during the Reyes negotiation means less than zero to me. I feel Wright will resign. I think signing Niese to a decent contract was a good move and somewhat unexpected.
We share the same sentiment on the Bullpen but I do feel Rauch and Remirez will be much better next year.
The RH power bat I feel MAY come this off season.
The fact that we still don’t have the flexibility, I believe is more a product of our shady ownership constantly moving back the target on the FO. The Wilpons are one of the worst owners in baseball and I will NEVER defend them. I will be somewhat more patient with Sandy Alderson. One more season I believe is very realistic.
Was K-Rod under performing? If not then he wasn’t being overpaid!
Did we get anything worthhaving from trading him?
As for Perez and Castillo they were as good as cut before Sandy got here!
I hardly call that an accomplishment or part of his plan.
Which underperforming overpaid guy did he cut besides them?
Certainly not K_Rod as he was not under performing at the time!
Actually, that was referring to the many of the comments to your well thought out post, not the post itself. Me thinks you’re a little too defensive.
I know SRT and yes I was being defensive….
Can you blame me here?
Point is (as I said to TRS) if people didn’t fall over themselves trying to make excuses for Sandy or keep insisting he is doing one thing his actions say differently we would not be having this discussion as often as we do!
My post is really to address all the different reasons and plans people are attributing to Sandy as a reason to not take him to task.
Well I addressed the two (actually three but #3 Attendance wasn’t fully fleshed out) excuses made for Sandy that are just hopeful claptrap and not a realistic look at what is actually happening!
I might be perfectly fine with a slow build from within if I actually SAW a slow build from within!
I might be perfectly happen with cutting payroll to get spending flexability to buy better talent provided the BAD talent were the ones being purged and some actual Payroll flexability was in the offing…But there is none!
Even if we don’t sign wright we will lose money next year. 23 M in losses minus Wrights salary what do you have to spend?
Keep Wright get rid of Bay what do you have to spend?
Cut Bay and Santana what do we have to go get someone good?
Yet people don’t look at the endgame here they merely look at the move itself and make excuses for liking it!
I used to play tournament chess…To play well there you can’t just look at the move you made when you make it you have to look 4 or 5 moves ahead to see what the result might be in a best case and worse case scenario…
I follow this plan to it’s conclusion and all I see are a bunch of unproven kids who may not be any better than the guys we have, trades of great players who will not get you back more than you gave and no payroll flexability even in 2015 which would be 5 years of “GIVING SANDY A CHANCE”
As dumb as it sounded to think the Mets would pull off a miracle in July with a little help it sounds even dumber to think there is a playoff in our future before 2020!
Because all the guys who FILL holes are the only ones people seem to want to trade or talk about trading!
I believe I am being quite FAIR to Sandy right now!
I give everynew manager/gm/player 3 years to show me something.
First year you don’t need to improve it’s a gift, Second year you need to at least show me some promise and if you don’t there is no need to even go to that third year!
Because two bad years out of three makes waiting for years 4 and 5 a waste of time!
If he can’t improve the team or show some logic in his actions after two years he won’t do it in three or four year either!
Well, anyone that reads here often enough knows my opinion….it’s all about the money.
It’s all about saving the team for the Wilpons first and foremost. Everything after that hopefully might include an actual contending team someday.
Yes SRT it is about the money….
Do you think Sandy is fixing that and if so when?
I laid out the financial picture for everyone here….
We lost 23 Mil this year….
If Attendance stays the same and if Wright resigns for the same amount he gets paid now how much money will we have to spend once Bay and Sanatana are gone and is that amount enough to fix the team?
Thats the question I pose to those who claim Money is the problem here and Sandy is fixing it…
Because from what I can see he isn’t fixing it!
in 2015 we will have 18 Mil of profit to spend.
Enough to get you another Davuis Wright maybe but that won’t help unless you keep the David Wright you have!
Sandy didn’t ‘fix’ the money problems all by himself. Wilpons hired that team that specializes in helping out organizations going bankrupt. I’m sure they had much to do with some of those cost savings across the board.
I think you need to separate your issues.
Slashing team payroll was just one cost saving measure instituted to save the team. Sandy was probably tasked with doing that and still fielding a somewhat ML team.
The Wilpons either cannot or will not invest in this team right now. They’re not laying out the money the Angel or Dodgers did this season, in hopes of higher revenues and a better return.
“Slashing team payroll was just one cost saving measure instituted to save the team”
Has it worked? Is the team Saved?
We lost 23 Mil this season. If we cut Bay’s 16 mil will we have brought the team back to profitability?
If Wilpon can’t invest it’s because Sandy failed to do what you propose he was trying to do!
When Sandy finds a way to turn a profit then the Wilpons might invest again.
So far cutting Salary has not gotten the job done!
And when the goal is not met using the methods you chose then you failed!
Well, anyone that reads here often enough knows my opinion….”
Yeah, to defend sandy at all cost… The biggest slurper in here is you..
And on that note, you’re the biggest offender of SSDD.
Been asking you for days to prove it. Your talk is cheap.
LOL! SRT taking The Coeur to task!
so, if I got this straight, as long as everyone agrees with your opinion, there will stop being debates?
that actually does make sense!
No until one side proves thier point which I think I have done pretty well here and the Sandy side has not!
Did you see a single post here who managed to say what the plan is?
Some said it was to turn the team to profitability…Has that happened?
Some say it was build the team from within has that happened and if so who is it that we got other than Wheeler?
Prove to me Sandy has a plan by telling me what it is and what he has accomplished towards meeting that goal you think he has….
Can you?
Or is all anyone has is hope and excuses for a year that hasn’t come and might never in the way you believe it will?
Shall we continue this until 2015 and what then?
Or do you guys just hope to jump off the bandwagon the day he gets fired and try to claim you were unhappy all along?
‘Prove to me Sandy has a plan by telling me what it is and what he has accomplished towards meeting that goal you think he has….’
Depends on what you think his plan was.
IMO, it’s part of the deal the Wilpons made with Selig. On that end, he’s on his way to accomplishing exactly what he was probably tasked to do – help the Wilpons save their team.
Historic $50 million dollar slashing of payroll from one year to the next.
Revamp the farm system.
I don’t believe SA will be here long enough to see a contender here. He’s a ‘one and don’ type GM. Highly doubt his contract will be renewed. He’ll be handing off when that ends.
No SRT it’s what do YOU think his plan was and did he accomplish any of the goals of that plan?
I have been more than Clear Sandy has NO PLAN! He is just waiting for something to happen and reacting to it when it does!
That is what I think Sandy’s plan is and his actions seem to support it!
You all have ideas of what his plan is but the facts show he hasn’t made moves to suggest it IS the plan nor has he succeeded in accomplishing any of the goals you claim he is here to accomplish under his plan!
We have no payroll flexability, we hve no profitability, we have not goten rid of the bad contracts just the good ones and we have no been rebuilding the Minors because to date all that has happened is Wheeler and a Year and ahalf worth of draft picks in two years time!
Think I have been more than clear on what I think the plan was: Save the team for the Wilpons at just about any cost.
Costing the Wilpons 23 Mil..How long has he saved them?
Another two years? three?
the wilpons are still the owners. and are likely to be the owners at the end of 2013 seson.
so yes, that part of the plan is working.
the rest of the plan seems to be to tread water until they get a few more good talents out of the minors and have the largest dead wood contracts off the books.
hence the logic behind the people (like TRS I believe, though he can certainly speak for himself) who think you need to see what happens in the off season following the 2013 season to decide if the plan (whatever it actually is, since Sandy is not going to supply the details beyond what he already said) is actually going to lead to what they want, a consistent winner built for a long run, not a one shot deal.
and a big part of that will depend on the player development system that they have revamped too.
So you agree with the article and “THE PLAN” is to wait for something to happen?
Is that a plan or just a hope?
Metsie — You’ve shown that you have strong opinions. Sometimes I’ve agreed with them. To say you’ve proved most anything is a bit of a stretch. It’s just your view, so anointing it with holy water tells me just that you’re persistent.
Last man standing perfectly describes the method.
Yeah I see abot 10 different comments from you that say absolutly nothing!
Last Man Kneeling hoping and praying Sandy pulls a miracle out of his butt so you can hop off that fence and come out of the closet!
Lets see did that start the cycle over or are we on reply to the rebuttal? Rinse, repeat.
As bad a GM as Minaya was, it figures we’d replace him with someone worse. LOL, only the Mets.
Minaya takes over a team that went:
2003 66 W – 95 L, Attendance: 2,140,599 (11th of 16)
2004 71 W – 91 L, Attendance: 2,318,951 (11th of 16)
And in his first two years he took that and went:
2005 83 W – 79 L, Attendance: 2,829,929 (6th of 16)
2006 97 W – 65 L, Attendance: 3,379,535 (3rd of 16)
Alderson replaces him and inherits a team that goes:
2009 70 W – 92 L, Attendance: 3,168,571 (5th of 16)
2010 79 W – 83 L, Attendance: 2,559,738 (8th of 16)
And in his first two years he goes:
2011 77 W – 85 L, Attendance: 2,352,596 (9th of 16)
2012 71 W – 91 L, Attendance: 1,930,346 (11th of 16)
** W/L 22 games left prorated based on last 30 days W/L%.
** Still nine home dates left.
Don’t you think that payroll is relative to the discussion?
As well as the new ballpark and the dead weight of some contracts.
Dead Weight?
Seems to me the two biggest contracts of waste are still here!
All we got rid of was Perez and Castillo for a grand total of 20 Mil and anyone would have done that!
Bay is still here!
Funny the Yankees found a way to dump Burnett and the Sox found a way to dump Becket AND Crawford!
We haven’t done ANYTHING to tget rid of the DEAD weight all we have gotten rid of so far is the GOOD WEIGHT of productive players who get paid fairly for thier on field contributions!
I think that it’s fair to add payroll and dead weight contracts to the decision…the real difference is Omar reinvested money that came off the books from contracts IE: the Mets payroll didn’t change much the first few years under Omar…Alderson/Mets has pocketed the money as a way to get the team back in the black.
I think the bigger question/factor is the overall financial flexibility the Omars Mets has vs. what Alderson has.
Omar was tasked to build a winner…Alderson was tasked to get the Mets back to profitability and pay back the money the team owes.
I truly believe that Bud went to Fred and said “your team is screwed and you know it, MLB officials are worried about the future of the team and its ability to stay profitable. Because you and I are buddies, I’m not going to publicly embarrass you like I did with the Dodgers…but instead, I’m placing my own guy in charge of running the Mets…you stay out of his way and let him get the team’s debts taken care of and once the team in better off, I’ll hand you back control.”
We can argue about this all day long, I believe investing in players and building a winner gets fans in the park and people watching on TV and buying merchandise. That’s how you become profitable again. But the sad fact is, MLB and the Mets are a business first and they have to make money before anything else and the safer bet is to cut spending.
‘Omar was tasked to build a winner…Alderson was tasked to get the Mets back to profitability and pay back the money the team owes.’
In a nutshell, This.
So then he failed!
We are not profitable (losing 23 Mil this year alone) and he has done nothing to pay back the money they owed only added to it!
They had to sell shares of the team to pay the bills Alderson could not manage to pay due to lack of creating revenue!
It’s hard for us to say he failed…don’t get me wrong…I’m with you 100% on this.
But (like in politics) numbers can be presented a lot of diferant ways to to prove what ever point the presenter wants to make. The “Mets Baseball Club” may have lost money, but how about Sterling Equities?
Did SNY make money? how much money dose SNY feed into the Mets part of Sterling Equities? Was that money factored in? Citi Field is not part of the Mets, how much money did they bring in and how much made it over to the Mets?
There is a lot we don’t know and I’m sure we aren’t getting the full picture. All we can say for sure is, the Mets are not improving in the field and it dosen’t appear that next year is going to be any better.
Seems to me like this entire thing is way too close to mimicking the presidential race and how Republicans and Democrats have convinced themselves that they are the only ones with the correct answer and anything else is just worthless excuses.
Seriously, how in the hell could either side of the Alderson debate prove anything yet?
‘Seriously, how in the hell could either side of the Alderson debate prove anything yet?’
You can’t. All we know for sure right now is the Wilpons have managed to hold onto the team for now.
It really is mimicking the presidential debate, and I know you follow that relatively closely. One side says that the economy was President Bush’s fault. The other side says it’s due to Obama’s inactivity. One side says they need more time to fix that big of a mess. The other side says you have done nothing to fix it. One side says blah, blah, blah… and they all claim that the facts and god and country are behind them…. LOL.
Very True!!!
Well what one side has proved is all the stuff your thought WAS the plan here has not actualy been implemented!
The Finances aren’t in order and we are not building from within by refusing to sign half our draft picks!
So while I can’t prove Sandy has no Plan…(how can you prove that something does NOT exist!), I have successfully proved that the Plan you thought was in affect was NOT in affect!
There is one thing you can prove and that is the Mets have no money. Where the speculation exists is who is mandating the austerity measures. Are the Wilpon’s saying there is a cap on spending no-matter what, or is it Sandy.
Metsie makes a very valid point in one of the comments where if x amount of dollars are spent on a valuable name attendance may rise to a certain degree and cover that cost where the overall loss is the same but the product on the field is better and they are in a better position to succeed quicker. I personally believe there is a risk in that move but the risk he outlines has a better chance of succeeding instead of doing nothing. Who is making that decision to not move forward? WE DON”T KNOW. I tend to believe is more strongly pointing to Wilpon’s directive, but that’s just me.
One you have to have money to invest in that player and two you have to make sure that player isn’t just full of empty calories to the fans. That is how you get Jason Bay’s. Again, I say that they should be creative and find a way to sign BJ Upton. If they will or can? I have no idea.
Well if they want BJ to show up for 2013 they should of traded for his lazy no running ars back in 2011.
TB decided that his lazy no good arse was too important and too valuable to trade to anyone, including the Mets.
I knew that comment wasn’t going to come off right. Was trying to make light that he is so lazy it would take him 2 years just to show up for the first game. Joke=Fail.
Even if they say there is acap on spending WHY is it capped to the levels it is?
ATTENDANCE!
Something else Sandy has failed to improve!
LOL, Ah yeah I missed that entirely. Anyway, I still think Gomez is the best fit through trade and then BJ would be a nice addition if not.
By the way, Go Daddy got hacked… LOL.
Hi USMF,
Been raising those questions myself and the only conclusion I can come to is that the debt is even worse than has been reported.
Not sure how you can say definitively one way or the other that he’s failed.
I think you’re confusing initially saving the team for the Wilpons with the secondary make it a profitable team from there.
Wilpons still own the team.
Wilpons are still in debt. Said debt appears to be less but by no means is this team anywhere near in the black.
As for building up the farm system – I’d say some goals were accomplished. He did turn over staff there to a good extent. We have moved up in the rankings, but due in large part to one pitching acquisition credited to Sandy (Wheeler) and three that have moved up in ranks to the previous regime.
Well SRt if they are as broke as you say then how is losing 23 Mil going to keep the team for them?
Only way to save the team if they are broke is to turn a profit…Has he done that?
Hi SRT,
I wonder how one can be credited with building up the farm system when only one club in the majors (Pittsburgh) signed less draft picks than the Mets. And they refused to sign their number two draft pick (75th overall) over $80,000 slot money. From what I read, any draft pick making the top 100 is considered a top prospect – was not paying $80,000 worth more than not having him?
Do you think Sany has solved the Payroll problems?
How much Payroll flexability has he created in two years?
We lost 23 Mil this season…
Lets say he finds a way to get rid of Bay without having to pay him…
How much Payroll flexability will we have this offseason if that happened?
-7 Mil?
Looks like for now the Mets are committed to a payroll around 100M. I am guessing that means that the following year it will still be around 100M.
Poof goes the Payroll Flexability then doesn’t it?
They lost 23 Mil this year with a 90+ Mil payroll…
So we are shotting for losing 33 Mil next year?
Again who are you getting with the money?
What Free Agent is out there to change the path from one to the cellar to the playoffs?
If Sandy can get rid of Bay without having to pay him, he should skip executive of the year, and go straight to canonization, since that would be a bigger miracle than parting the red sea.
This is a perfect example of how you can take any set of data and skew them towards your belief.
What you fail to mention. With Minaya he inherits a team that is labeled as an “embarrassment” from Phillips because the big name free agents all flopped, but a lot of that contract money came off the books. 2004 payroll was at 100m where 2005 was at 93m after signing Beltran and Pedro. They also had established youth like Wright and Reyes, along with the friggen man Clif Floyd, Glavine and Feliciano. The team had good pieces and Minaya was able to make some opening moves that made it a lot better. The team had a bunch of name recognition with their stars and they were a group trending up.
For Alderson, the team is void of talent and money and there have not been many positives since 2006. This is not to relinquish blame from Alderson and the moves he has conducted it is merely to say that the first 2 years between Minaya and Alderson had completely 2 different environments to work in and 2 completely different mandates to work under. Minaya was to win where Alderson is to go into austerity mode.
Honestly, I think 2014 will be more like 2005 for the Mets.
So then tell us who are we going to sign in 2014 that would equate to Beltran and Martinez for just around 18 Million (That assumes Wright signs for the same as he gets paid now and Bay and Santana are gone!)
There is nothing that this organization is doing to even come close to putting out a team in 2014 that would compare to 2005. Even you said you are fine until off-season in 2013 to start re-investing. You can’t all of the sudden start making moves in one off-season and improve enough positions to get a team to that level.
Sure you can. Trade for Justin Upton, sign BJ Upton and pray wheeler and familia become the next Cain/Lincy combo.
Excuse me but I hardly think you can say having the SAME Wright and Reyes PLUS Beltran, Santana and K-Rod not to mention all the kids we are currently playing like Harvey, Davis, Duda, and Tejada,
As a team that was DEVOID of talent compared to the 2004 squad!
Reyes sure, but with a player of his skill set a 23 year old Reyes is always better than a 30 year old one. Not going down the “Beltran/Krod Metsie Comment Hole” so we can agree to disagree. I my opinion this is turning into one of Alderon’s only good move. Davis is nothing spectacular and Duda’s nickname should change from “the dude” to “the dud”.
As for Tejada, he is a nice player (seems to be running out of steam), Nothing great but a nice average SS.
Just look at the rosters before the Beltran and Pedro signings and forget who is the GM. The roster in 2004-2005 is a much stronger lineup on paper. Also Cameron was on that team too. 2005 the stadium was alive. All you can hear is MVP chants for Floyd who was on a complete tear. The team just had such a better balanced group that he started with and he did a great job elevating it.
Well Salty the 23 year old might sound better in theory but compare the numbers the 23 year old put up compared to the 30 year old!
Yes the stadium was alive in 2005!
Cause Omar signed two guys who caused a run on season tickets and brought Attendance up!
Which is what I have been Saying Sandy should do in order to solve the problem of payroll flexability!
for every 160K increase in attendance a team stands to make 20 million!
Sign one guy at 17 Mil who brings in 320K more fans and not only did you pay his salary you got the losses down from 23M to break even!
All we have done is purged the contracts who drew people and kept the contracts who don’t!
Even cutting Santana is not going to net you 25 Mil in savings because he still is a draw when he pitches!
I agree, austerity is not a winning philosophy. So it goes back to my original point “the first 2 years between Minaya and Alderson had completely 2 different environments to work in and 2 completely different mandates to work under. Minaya was to win where Alderson is to go into austerity mode”.
So if you had a worse starting point and a even worse plan, there is no way the team can be in a position to compete.
Ok lets agree they had different goals when they started…
Minaya met his goals in his second year….
Here we are in year two going on three and Sandy has yet to get the austerity that was needed to make the team profitable!
I’m not arguing that Sandy’s goal wasn’t to fix finances…I’m arguing that what he did (His Plan) failed toget that job done!
Amnd even if we give him TWO more years to finish the end result will be a lowly 18 Mil in payroll flexability that is not going to be enough to change us into a good team!
SO even if I give you the fact that Sandy had a different goal the issue of his failing to meet that goal still exists…His PLAN has failed so far to get the job done!
All the salary he cut cost him revenue.
And in the end by the time the team turns a profit at best you have 18 Mil left to work with on the payroll flexability.
That is if no one else on the team gets a raise between now and 2015 which we know is not likely!
Austerity is good for getting rid of costs that don’t produce but we have yet to get rid of those costs that don’t produce!
You can count Perez and castillo if it makes you feel better but the truth is anyone would have done that at the time and since then the only salary that has been cut is productive salary!
The bad salary remains!
Minaya absolutely met his goals. I don’t know if Sandy met his. With such a drastic reduction in payroll we should hope that it was a one time hit to shore up the balance sheet but who knows if there is a 3 year plan as they are fielding the we want to make a competitive team line BS going. They did hire that company that helps teams shore up their balance books and I am sure there are many recommendation that they are following. How long the plan is I don’t know but one-two years seems on the short side based on how drastic last year was.
So I agree with you on a certain degree and I feel you are doing a great job defending your hypothesis. Where I tend to separate from you is I feel the mandate is coming more from Wilpon’s than Sandy and that is why I am not as harsh on Sandy.
Where I think you have a very valid point is where if x amount of dollars are spent on a valuable name attendance may rise to a certain degree and cover that cost where the overall loss is the same but the product on the field is better and they are in a better position to succeed quicker. To me that has a better chance of succeeding than just plain cuts both from a revenue and loss perspective. Where that fails more on is Sandy because he should have plans in place like these to promote to ownership and attempt to dictate a path forward. Based on what I saw during the trade line I am not impressed.
Well all I can say is the Wilpons MAY have set the budget but it’s all Sandy on how he gets there…
I don’t see any owner saying here is the budget and this is WHO you should spend it on.
More likely to say they set the goal. Stop Losing money and left it to Sandy to figure out how to do that.
And he hasn’t quite realized that while cutting payroll might have been a part of the way toget it could never solve the problem by itself and some push to increase revenue was in order.
At current trend they will draw 2299347 in total attendance.
Thats DOWN 53,249 So they basically lost about 10 Mil from the attendance they had with Reyes and Beltran. Who can say how much was beltran and How much was Reyes but I think it is at least safe to say Reyes was the Majority as most fans gave up on Beltran before the season even started.
They might have maintained Attendance if our GM didn’t go on the air in July and pretty much say the season was over…How much in ticket sales did that cost us?
All I know is they need to boost attendance or lose Wright and Dickey and if itgets to that point getting rid of Santana and Bay is not going to help.
Unless you can buy a good #2 SP, All Star 3B and Power Hitting RH Bat for around 30 Mil between them.
Hi Metsie,
Does that $10 million loss in ticket revenue take into account the price cuts all year- which included those $5 seat promotions? Could that figure therefore be more?
Who knows Joey we are losing bottomline numbers here!
Whatever it was they made per ticket is actually irrelevant as they make a lot more on every ticket sale than just the ticket, Food, concessions, parking etc…
I have a new requirement for reading comments here. I search for the word “slurp” and read who says it.
I then choose to not read whatever that person says in the thread. Unfortunately for this author – they said it twice…so I didn’t read because the use of that word to me tells me everything I need to know about the discussion.
Yeah I think the bestway forward for you is not make anymore comments because you already have more than enough rope out there to hang yourself with! LOL
What I find amazing is a well versed and literate adult would need to use that word in their vocabulary to describe a certain group of Mets fans on a Mets site.
Yes it’s so much more adult to call someone a HATER or NOT A FAN like you guys do!
ROFLMAO!
Ah but there you go not being able to back up your comments. I continually have middle school rhetoric thrown back at me, yet I haven’t called anyone a hater or not a fan. In fact I defend Alex as a fan. I would think that on a Mets site we could resist calling any other Mets fans middle school rhetoric.
Hmm where was your high and mighty attitude towards those who DID use Hater and NOT A FAN and why did your attitude only include the word Slurper?
Not a peep from you when the HATER was being thrown arund LONG BEFORE Slurper was ever used here!
One, as I said I defended Alex against the attacks of not a fan. If they are not a fan why are they on here unless they are trolling but that usually doesn’t happen for years at a time.
But as Salty said do we honestly think that slurper and hater are on the same level?
Personally I find being called a slurper much less insulting than being called a Hater!
How it’s not unanimous among Mets fans that this guy is doing a LOUSY job with the resources he was given just goes to show you how deep the belief and love of sabermetrics and the Moneyball book/ideals is among a segment of the fan base. They have nothing else to lean on and those 2 things give average people a sense that they understand better what it takes to win and what it takes to build a team when it does not.
Sandy preached the virtue of advanced statistical analysis during his introductory press conference. I thought advanced statistical analysis was supposed to make up for lack of money. Guess it doesn’t…and now lack of money is the excuse. Give me a break!!!!
As a matter of fact those ideals take you away from what it takes to win at a competitive level misleading people to believe that all you have to do is look at numbers in order to evaluate and build a team based on on base percentage. And sabertmetrics is best used to see if you can try and find cheap ballplayers at good prices, you don’t need it when looking for impact players. In fact you don’t need it looking for backups either.
Sounds like a recipe for losing to me and that is exactly what is happening. Mike Baxter is Saber Sandy’s ode to sabermetrics.
Big deal, a bench player who’s having a nice year. Whoop de do.
Hi Jessep,
I guess too many here are Garfield fans since he often calls Odie a slurper too!
I don’t think it was him not giving it a fair shot…it was one of those ideas that was mentioned to the press before it was mentioned to him…then the press brought it to Reyes and he said he’d do what ever the team wanted\, he just wanted to play but he didn’t seem to be enthusiastic at the time.
At the same time HanRam got moved from lead off to the 3rd spot and he seemed to like the idea, but lets be honest, Haney was much more a run producer vs. a run scorer like Jose.
Jose was coming off of injury so his timing was way off and he struggled…they moved him back to lead off and eventually he got better as the season went along.
Everyone assumed the worst of Jose and said all the negative that the assumed Jose was thinking…but I never actually saw a direct quote from Jose that showed the hated the move or he pouted or anything else.
The media had it out for Jose and I could never figure out why.
Well TRS we are up to 135 Comments here and I note 26 posts from you and MAYBE one of them actually discussed anything posted in the Article!
And you wonder why we have 200 Comments threads around here?
Well guess what you ALONE account for `12% of those 200 commenys nearly ALL of them off topic, argumentative, about a poster, and having NOTHING to do with the text of the Article!
Just thought I should point that out to you since you seemed to be interested in being High and Mighty GOOD poster today!
And yet Metsie how many of them were in response to you responding to me? Remember the rebuttal to the counter, lol.
Well if you had not posted 26 posts of non-sequitor off topic posts then there would be no replies to your useless drivel would there?
You start these 200 comment barrages by adding your 26 posts (and counting) off topic banter!
And I will note they happened in other threads just recently I stayed out of just to MAKE this point!
Again, you replied to most of the comments which in turn were in reply to you. LOL. How many of your own comments in your own post have been on topic?
And most of my replies were meant to get you back ON topic….
You reply to those was “Lets see that was the rebuttal to the counters in our cycle.”
You want the posting around to get better and really reduce the number of comments around here then jst stay away and you will see a marked change in the direction you want!
You just come here to attack posters and make trouble!