19
2012
Duda Over Davis Doesn’t Make Sense
An article by 
With Adam Rubin’s report citing a baseball source that the Mets are open to trading Ike Davis this winter, the offseason rumor mill has officially started spinning. Now, please keep in mind that I’m not necessarily opposed to the team trading Davis away, and while its comforting that the team’s front office is prepared to make changes, this particular change doesn’t necessarily add up for a variety of reasons.
The most intriguing part of Rubin’s scenario is that the Mets are upset with Davis’ ability to accept instruction. Furthermore, Rubin’s source indicates that the team is unhappy with the idea that Ike’s late night activities are impacting his ability to play good baseball. Each would be a realistic gripe. Specifically its reasonable to think that Davis may have pulled out of his early season slump if the supposed claims were true, however in my opinion that it’s nonsensical to think that we wouldn’t have caught wind of such problems before the team went as far as considering the removable of the man who was considered the first baseman of the future just six months ago.
Another piece of this puzzle which doesn’t quite jive for me is the idea that an attitude issue would grease the wheels for Ike’s exit. If I recall correctly, Lucas Duda’s mid-season demotion was due in part to a very similar attitude problem. Now suddenly the Mets will overlook one discretion for another? Let us not forget that Ike Davis was mired in an epic slump at season’s start and didn’t face the same Triple-A fate as Duda, but now that Davis has pieced together a somewhat palatable season he has to go?
I could keep going… Both first baseman with power potential, it was Davis who projected to be the better major leaguer and Duda who seemed to over achieve. Despite the fact that Duda’s career numbers are slightly higher than Davis’, it is Ike who both plays superior defense and who has been given an opportunity to excel in his chosen position while Duda has, until recently, been relegated to the outfield. The writing simply hasn’t been on the wall for a sudden change of heart at the organizational level.
Again, remember that I’m not necessarily against trading Ike Davis, or anyone on the current roster for the record for that matter. I am however against the idea that the Mets are prepared to jettison one of their most promising players over what appears to be a sudden set of circumstances. The Mets need to make roster changes, and Ike Davis undoubtedly has a higher trade value than Lucas Duda. If that’s the reason the Mets decide to trade Davis than so be it, but the situation described by Adam Rubin’s baseball source simply doesn’t make sense. Tough decisions must be made, and this may turn out to be one of them, but I sincerely hope the team makes them for the right reasons…
Follow me on Twitter at @RobPatterson83
About the Author: Rob Patterson
Ultimately, I owe nearly thirty years of Mets related torture to my mother, who is the reason I became a fan. I was too young to remember the 86 run, but hope to see one I'll be able to recall much sooner than later. I enjoy writing about the team and welcome your feedback on my posts. Oh..and I am not with 28!
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I don’t recall anything about an attitude problem with Duda. Only thing ever said about him is that he can get down on himself (lack of self confidence). If anything, the dead opposite of an attitude (arguing with umps, not taking coaching) problem.
I read several articles about Duda having an attitude problem and needing an attitude adjustment. Plus, he can’t run and he isn’t athletic.
You may not recall it because it may have not been reported, but from one who had at least four Bisons games covered by this site, Duda had HUGE attitude problem from day one when he arrived to Buffalo. It was huge and even Wally spoke to us about it saying he understood the reason for it. He carried that chip up until the day he was recalled.
They both stunk this year.I will drive either one to the airport after they are traded.Who cares?Fourteen consecutive games at home scoring 3 runs or less?Both of guys were to supposed to prevent an abomination like that from happening.I hope they are both traded.Good riddance.
Good article, Robert. Like Ivory Snow, you’re 99 and 44 100′s on the money. But please explain your statement that, “…Lucas Duda’s mid-season demotion was due in part to a very similar attitude problem.”
What attitude problem do they share? Duda is known for being a quiet guy who is too hard on himself and occasionally lacks confidence. I don’t think these issues plague Ike.
Everyone loves Duda, they say he’s a great guy…it’s a issue with confidence issue…which might be fixed with a move back to first…
From what I read after Duda was initially sent down, he pouted the first week or so because he wasn’t at all happy about the demotion (who would be?). I never read anything about him having an ‘attitude’ problem when he was up here.
Not a bad article, just a quibble. I recall nothing about attitude being the reason for sending Lucas down. Are you sure you aren’t confusing that with the demotion of V-Spin? Duda if anything has had confidence issues so sending him down would not be because of that for it could cause the attitude that you are trying to correct. Duda was sent down because he was struggling AND he is a defensive liability in RF. IF he had been a great or passable defender in RF he would have most likely not been sent down to start with.
I know Lennon reported Duda’s attitude and clubhouse demeanor was not favorable. But I think his “laid back” attitude and lack of urgency could be what they mean…. regardless, I remember TC said he didn’t take the send down well – but TC also said he’d be concerned if Duda DID take it well
Dang I don’t remember that at all. You got a link?
Best I can find is that he may have been sulking about reduced playing time.
It was a tweet in late July
“Talked to someone about Duda today. Numbers aside, didn’t realize how deep he was in the dogouse, attitude-wise. He’s got some work to do.
Not only lacking in confidence, needs to be reminded staying in bigs not a birthright. #Mets hope sulking doesn’t cont at Buffalo”
Yeah that’s all I found. No actual source credited and basically implied that he was sulking. Hardly a strange attitude issue for a young player.
Frankly and maybe this is just pessimistic me talking – but I view this entire conversation as filler for a slow mets news cycle. I don’t see any value at all in talking about trading a young 1B on September 18th of a losing season.
If this were June or early July, sure. But nothing is going to get done today, tomorrow or the next day. Nothing would probably get done at the earliest until December.
There is so much that happens from now through Thanksgiving – including front office meetings with coaches/managers from the entire organization. Meetings with scouts. Discussions with other GMs. All of these items impact a “rumor” like this one.
If anything it’s just throwing a worm out there and seeing who picks up the phone and makes an offer they cannot refuse. They aren’t going to give Davis away, and they aren’t going to do anything until they actually have player evaluations done in the off-season.
I haven’t given it any thought because I personally feel it’s a) not gonna happen and b) not the time to talk about such a thing.
Talking trades and moves is always fun as long as we keep it in perspective and realize that rumors are 99% of the time rumors and have no incite to actual front office thinking. I don’t think most people understand how intricate and tangled the works of an MLB front office are. That being said, of course all but 2 Mets are available in the right deal. Heck even those two might be in the right deal. Why shouldn’t everyone be available?
No I’m with you. I get the fun of it, but this is beyond just chattin baseball and potential trades. This is “somebody” starting a rumor that he IS getting traded. It’s created another negative energy around the team – and frankly I don’t get it.
I don’t get the value of saying in Sept. that somebody will be traded, I don’t get the point in getting worked up about it and I don’t get why people don’t see that there is nothing to talk about so this can just be filler etc.
I like Rubin a lot. But I don’t like this story because to me it comes off as “I need something to write about besides the constant dragging of this team.”
No doubt and I wrote the same thing yesterday in the desert. Joe and I disagreed but to me this was about making something that wasn’t there just to drum up some business when there is nothing else to talk about.
The biggest thing I have with rumor discussion is how some overreact and start attacking those in charge for a move that they 1: Haven’t made 2: Have no idea if they are going to make 3: Have no idea if they even want to make.
Maybe Jose should have taken himself out of the game to avoid making baseball history? Just a thought…
LOL, ok so now YOU are pulling a Rubin.
Hey congrats to our former SS Jose Reyes who has helped set a major league record…
LOL
http://www.baseball-reference.com/
Who has time to count this stuff?
ahhh you stole my thunder lol. I was just writing a piece about it. I was tracking the 500k error for a few weeks because I got a kick out of it (and had nothing better to do) and when
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/sports/baseball/baseballs-500000th-error-finds-jose-reyes.html?_r=0
Couldn’t have happened to a better guy
Is anyone surprised that Rubin started this whole thing? It’s all biased off a “baseball source”, it’s not even necessarily a Mets source or even a grounds keeper with the Mets. Realistically, all of us here could be a “baseball source”, it don’t make anything we say creditable. Sadly, Ike is probably going to be stuck with this taint for ever, it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not.
How many players (especially Reyes) have had beat writers come up with some crazy story siting “Baseball sources” and everyone takes them as fact? It’s ridiculous and extremely frustrating.
And to Ike’s defense, Even if he stayed out to last call, that’s still only four hours after he gets off work…how many here can say that they were home four hours after their work shift ended when they were 24?
Some points from yesterday, I want to keep Ike, but I could see if the right trade coming up that you’d have to jump on it. Like, What if someone decided that they’d take Bay in a trade if it cost us Ike?
If we lost Ike, we could do much worse than having Duda as a replacement for a year or two.
As for the Mets “debating” trading Ike or Duda? First, debating is completely different than making plans and actively doing something. and second…you’re damn right they should be debating it…they should be debating every possible scenario…I don’t care what it is…even if it’s trading Wright, Murph, RAD, Santana, Tejada or anyone one else…you’re not doing your job in the FO if you’re not looking at every possibility, not matter how stupid or unrealistic. This team is getting worse every year and sitting back and doing nothing but shop at the junk yard and cut payroll isn’t working.
remember that there are 2 primary sources of leaks. The FO of course, but also the agents. ‘
and agents have their own pet lackey media sources, same as FO people. And they also count as “baseball sources:.
And IMO, people assume that leaks are big mistakes (some letting a secret slip), but in reality, 99% of them are (mis)information put out for a specific purpose.
but in reality, 99% of them are (mis)information put out for a specific purpose”
Stick, for as long as you’ve been a mets fans, how many times you seen this before?? the mets do this all the time. they throw out “player malcontent” news out to the media so they can trade that player and have an excuse at the same time…
Reason why ike is in the hot seat is because he is the most likely candidate to bash this Pathetic FO, their beliefs and lack of help to the roster…
Yes there are two sources, but they aren’t reporting the same thing…
One story and source say the Mets are looking to trade Ike because of him staying out late and him not listening to coaches.
The story and source says the the Mets are debating on which player should be the first came about because we are looking for a response because of what Rubin said.
I think you are giving too much credit to FO’s when you say that 99% of leaks are designed leaks. I’m sure that happens, but I see that back firing more often than not…I believe that most leaks are from some low level admin or someone in the staff or copy room who hears a part of a conversation and get’s slipped $50 from these beat writers for the rumor.
I’m sure where you work or anything, but every place I’ve been, there are always rumors flying around about the boss or another co worker or the CEO or some project coming up…we just have beat writers trying to stuff cash in our pockets for these rumors. I don’t care where you work, there is always at least on idiot running around spreading stories and making them sound bigger than what they are because they are looking for attention.
These are baseball offices in NY, not the CIA…
Sorry, some of my post get deleted…but Mortino’s story is about internal debates and sited Rubin’s story…they aren’t really reporting the same thing.
Right, they should be discussing both in the box and out of the box ideas. What if they thought that the Brewers would trade them Gomez and Hart for Davis and a lower level pitcher? You gonna turn that down?
WHAT???? Those 2 bums for DAVIS???? go back to mock jose reyes bro…
Hart has averaged about 28 HR per season, is RH with even splits and is able to play RF and 1B without looking like an oaf. Gomez is 26 years old and has 16 HR and 33 steals in about 400 PA. Two holes for one.
2 holes?? We’d have TWO 250 hitters and those 2 will combined for Ike’s production, not to mention the salary they will demand will be 10x what ike makes.. and for a team that preaches no money shouldn’t we be concern with players salary as well?? I don’t care much about gomez, Hart i think is done and don’t like him… Gomez in CF as a trade or something i get, not for ike davis though…
you’re mocking a .250 hitter, but what do you expect in trade for a .220 hitter?
How am i mocking them!??? By saying they’re 250 hitters?? And make a lot of money given our financial situation?? Stay with DUDA and IKE and save you the $
The thing is you actually improve your offense and defense. You could go with Gomez in CF, Hart in RF and Duda at 1B.
Also, do you ever look at a stat? Corey Hart has never hit below .260 and is a career .277 hitter with a SLG % .510 or higher the last 3 years. Certainly no slouch.
I’m with Alex on this one. Davis has the ability to put up better numbers than Hart and Hart is going to make 10m next season which is a travesty. Gomez can’t even break a .300 obp. I don’t care if he’s fast, if he can’t hit how the hell is he going to use it. So that would be a NO.
Again, we have GOT to have a influx of speed in the lineup. We don’t have the power hitters to go station to station and while Hart (who would have to come with some cash as you mentioned) might be less than what Ike COULD produce, Hart has already been doing it for 3 years consistently hitting from both sides of the plate.
I get completely that station to station baseball doesn’t work, but getting someones that is fast but cannot hit doesn’t solve your problem. Gomez is a 4th outfielder at best, someone along the lines of Endy. A player you want to do a base runner substitution and late game defense, that is it. If you have the worst outfield in the majors, adding Gomez doesn’t improve anything.
As for Hart vs. Davis. You are basically taking a good defensive 1st baseman making no money and replacing it with a average mid-aged outfielder that makes 10m. None of it makes sense especially for a cash strapped team. Now of there was someones to replace Davis at first you can maybe make a case, but there is no-one. So why trade the same offensive numbers, put them in a weaker position and add 10m to payroll? Take the 10m and sign our other boy BJ Upton ( which I don’t want) and now you have Davis at First and a good defensive fielder (when he feels like it) with some pop.
I’d turn that down in a NY minute.
Of course that was first look but the problem is that both Gomez and Hart are not signed longterm so maybe not.
they could have 10 year deals at league minimum for all I care.
Corey Hart is a 31 year old average at best fielder (probably worse than that).
They’d both come here and get worse (and they aren’t that good to begin with) and Ike would go to Milwaukee and become an all-star with Braun.
Ike Davis at worst will become Corey Hart offensively but with a better glove. I don’t see how that move does anything for the Mets at all.
I would rather see Gomez for a lower level pitcher say (adjust as needed).
stick, I’d rather see Gomez in the opposing dugout
I still don’t get your distaste for Gomez. Incredible, incredible defense based on my eyes and every metric, 16 HR, 4 triples and 16 doubles in 400 PA, 33 steals, even splits, and only 26 years old. He isn’t an OBP king for sure but those numbers certainly play in CF.
Yeah, I was a bit surprised to see Gomez’s numbers at the plate this year. If we could be assured he finally found a bit of a stroke and some power, he could be a viable option in CF. He can still fly and as you said, with that defense he should have no problem with CF at Citi.
It’s just odd that is OBP doesn’t lend well to a lead off type hitter.
The only thing Gomez found is what Braun was hiding in his locker.
Salty I am not so sure about that. It’s more about not getting the PA. Last year he had 8 in 258 PA. That would give you around 21 in 700 PA as well.
He’d need to bat leadoff for the Mets and if there is a spot where OBP is most important it is for a leadoff hitter and a hitter who’s value is based on speed and what they do on the bases.
I don’t see value in a batter who relies on speed but can only get on base 29% of the time. To me that diminishes his value by a ton.
I’m not going to pretend to be a defensive metric expert but here’s what I see (and maybe you can explain)
Rtot — Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg: The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on the number of plays made. This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch numbers into a total defensive contribution.
Gomez is a -8. Doesn’t that make him below average?
Regardless, I don’t like position players who can’t hit. I respect the need for a solid glove in CF especially with Duda in LF. I love a great fielding OF but a guy who relies on speed and can’t get on base, does nothing for me
If he can’t get on base then how does he have 33 steals in 400 PA? Also keep in mind that perhaps he like Cedeno and Reyes would excel with a new approach at the plate. He also has 16 HR, 4 triples and 16 doubles in those 400 PA.
Factor that out over 700PA in a full year and you get 27 HR, 27 2B, 7 3B, and 57 steals.
Again OBP is his biggest knock for sure but that being said if you don’t like him 1st then he has enough pop to hit 7th as well. Last I looked the # 7 hitter lead off an inning at a much higher rate than you would expect. I just can’t do double splits anymore.
Hell you could hit under .100 and get on base 33 times in 400 PA dude!
In fact just hit .082 and steal a base every time you get on!
That was in response to Jessp and the fact that he does not get on base.
Obviously he needs to get on base more but if you aren’t getting on base at all then you can’t get 33 steals.
Metsie’s right, one has nothing to do with the other. One is a measure of base-pad performance once he gets on and the the other is a measure of performance of attempting to get on the base-pads. They guy is a offensive liability and you can get any shill that will be a upgrade at defense at this point compared to what the team has.
Offensively liability? with 36 extra base hits in 400 PA? His OBP is the same as Davis and his extra base hits per PA is about the same as well.
Hmmm lets see…36 EBH vs 27 HRs…Decisions are so hard aren’t they? LOL
2 completely different hitters with different roles… Even if you want to judge them the same I still wouldn’t take Gomez’s historical highs over Davis’s injury return year:
Davis
1st Half .201BA .271OBP .388SLG
2nd Half .251BA .342OBP .517SLB
Gomez
1st Half .233BA .280OBP .423SLG
2nd Half .265BA .315OBP .466SLB
Sorry but a .293 on base is terrible. It’s minor league. The fact he has great speed and ONLY has a .293 career OBP is even more minor league because it proves to me he’s a lousy hitter most of the time.
He’s had 403 plate appearances.
He’s had 16 doubles, 4 triples, 16 HR and 29 SB (resulting in getting into scoring position)
So with his speed as his main weapon he’s gotten himself in scoring position 65 times in 403 times at the plate.
Which means 338 times he’s come up to bat, his speed has been a minimal factor unless he’s scored 1st to home.
He also plays in the most homer friendly park in the sport right now.
I just don’t see it sorry. He’d be great if this was the late 60′s, but its not.
He would not be replacing Ike.
So the real question is, would you take him over Torres and the other CF options (say Kirk, who he could actually platoon with).
I would take Razor Shines over Torres. Trading Davis for Hart and Gomez, no way. Acquiring Gomez for mere dollars, I still probably wouldn’t. This team needs dynamic players and Gomez isn’t even close to it. He would solve some defensive issues but so would Kirk. There are definitely better fish to be had. When you have a team that can’t score 3 runs a game, how the hell is Gomez going to upgrade that when he spends more than 70% of the time failing.
I would take a week old mouldy Ham Sandwich over Torres myself!
Who might be available in CF that would be better than Gomez? Other than Upton I have no idea.
Why are you in such a rush to give up on Kirk?
I mean isn’t that great Hitting coach going to improve him?
Do you honestly think that a hitting coach can actually improve something that isn’t there to start with? Hopefully Kirk is the answer but another LH certainly isn’t ideal.
First off Kirk has hit everywhere he has ever been till Hudgens got his hands on him and
Two Thats what the Hitting coach gets paid to do!
make hitters better than they are currently!
To further the point
Rtot -8
Rtot/yr -12
Rtz -8
Rtzhm -6
Rtzrd -2
Are these stats like golf where – is good? Doesn’t seem like it.
Looking at fangraphs with their UZR and “Fielding” he has been a plus defender every year. Again, based on what I have seen my eyes also back up that stat.
His average for UZR since 2009, which I am told is the only true way to use it, shows him as being the #4 CF during that time behind Franklin G, Bourn and Bourjos. At least seems to be in pretty good company.
I thought you avoided using metrics you can’t calculate easily?
I do. Thus you have something else than is a usable stat for defense other than MY EYES!!! Obviously Fielding % is not a good measure.
Why isn’t FP good measure?
Tell us all why a stat that has worked for 100 years all of a sudden stopped working because a geek decided he could mash up a bunch of numbers to favor what he wants to favor is better?
Metsie – For me – and I can’t tell you what most of those stats mean but FP% is flawed just as much.
FP% only tells you what happens when they actually get to the ball. Isn’t that half the battle?
You don’t get deducted points for the balls you physically cannot get to – but that doesn’t mean somebody else would have failed there either.
Its just like errors. You can only make an error if you can get to the ball. So you can’t always take the number at face value all of the time.
Like Murphy has 15 errors, how many more would he have if he were quicker in the field?
Well if your going to go that far then at what point do you start to take into account where the Coach positioned them where they were out of position to get to a ball they normally would get to, or take into account the bad decision of the fielder to position himself where he can’t get to a ball?
Take Torres for example, He is always playing too shallow and it has cost him plenty!
Is that factored into the newer metric?
As I always say all stats are flawed in some way because I have yet to see one that takes EVERYTHING at play into account.
The fact one takes more into account though does not make it better than the simpler!
Sometime TWO stats are better in those cases.
This is my feeling on metrics like OBP as well…
Why mash the walks and HBP which are not all batter created with BA that is?
Why take productive outs and say they are completly unproductive?
Why not take BA as one half of the picture and find a new metric that tells you what he does in PAs where he does not hit and show how productive PAs that are not ABs are instead!
Lets not get into that though since it’s off the beaten path of what we were talking about…
I would be happy to have FP as one stat and another stat to show how good his range is in general. Then I have a metric to show how often and far he goes to get to balls and the ending result of what happened when he did!
Much more usefull if you ask me since catching a ball can improve over time but getting to a ball is pretty much a constant throughout a career as it is based on physical speed and range.
Metsie – all you’re doing is explaining why measuring defense is not very easy. So many if’s, or’s, but’s, maybe’s, opinions etc.
Well what I’m trying to say is instead of trying to mash multiple stories into one cohesive narrative isn’t it better to tell a few short stories instead where better precision and clarity can be made?
If you did that then FP would be a fine stat again and instead of the flawed mashing you have two very detailed stories to weight as you see appropriate!
mashing different aspects together actually hides key data and loses precision to see acpects you may find important!
Like mashing an Apple and Blueberry pie!
It might seem like it tastes good but once mashed together you can’t say tell what the best proportion of Apple to Blueberry is because it’s all one conglomerated mess!
Thats my main issue with Sabers in general, Not that the concept to create new metrics is wrong but the fact that most of them are just mashed up into a mess that really tells you nothing and forcing you to look at the components to actually find the story they were meant to tell!
Duda will be gone before Davis I think. Davis on a “bad” year leads team in HR and RBI, without hitting lefties either and basically no protection behind him.
I agree hitting almost 30 HR from one side of the plate is impressive. The question, is a full-time or platoon player.
NJ took a look at his stats for the second half this year and even during his rebound he is hitting in the low .100′s from the LH side. Also this new stance has been said by Keith to have potential to cause even more problems vs LH. I know platoon hitters don’t usually hit 30 HR but full-time players don’t usually hit .100 from one side of the plate either.
well, if he can hit 30 just vs. RHP, andyou can find a 1B version of a Hairston (big RH batting platoon split guy) you easily could get 40-45 or so out of the pair. With many fewer outs made And that dog will hunt!
Ike has also not been all that good with the glove. Some snazzy plays, but also quite a few flubs on routine stuff. So not quite sure he is the big GG many thought. maybe the ankle is hurting him there?
anyway, Ike is a fun guy to watch, but he has become quite a 1 trick pony this year. Can he rebound into an everyday, hit lefties enough, guy next year? hope so, if he is back and playing daily!
but still, if he ends up hitting his way into a platoon, so be it.
True but when you have a platoon at 1B you are setting your self up for defensive chemistry issues as well as lineup problems. I am not big on platoons for middle of the order guys myself.
You mean 20 HRs as he has 7 HRs vs LHP.
Theory, that is the problem, once he learns he has noone behind him to protect him, he’ll get more selective on his own without losing his agressiveness. Hudgens has F**** him up along with the entire mets lineup and all the hitters.. How else can you explain this lack of offense at a historic rate? Some people in here said that when reyes is gone the team will be fine offensively, well, it turns out we are not. he’s a dynamic player who could’ve made runs on his own. but hey, we shouldn’t bring in any negative vibe to the team because SA is always right.. He made the right move on reyes regardless what he does the next 5 years, it’s ok to give a guy like SA as long as he wants to turn it around but we’re supposed to condemn players who sign long term contracts in one year. yeah, with that being said, let’s hope Ike is not traded, but as i said, if he is, wouldn’t be surprised, the MEtS have a history of bashing a favorite fan player in the media with BS news so they can trade that player and have an excuse to the fanbase.. It’s been done for as long as i remember, that is this franchise MO
I would say blame the lack of talent by most of the hitters, more than the philosophy of a hitting coach (which you have bass ackwards anyway).
“How else can you explain this lack of offense at a historic rate?”
Murphy, Baxter, Thole, Torres, Bay, Cedeno, Hairston getting at bats? Duda and Ike hitting like AAA players with power?
Cream always rises to the top…
I don’t comment on your shi*** articles nor reply back to you, you have been told many times to avoid me and ignore me to avoid confrontation right? Why do you keep insisting in having any type of debate with me when i don’t wanna??? What exactly is your purpose you PO_S?? didn’t joe D tell you to ignore me and my comments? i don’t wanna debate with you ok? You’re a snake who all you do is try to rile up people so you go like a little bi*** and complain about one’s behavior.. move on and do what you gotta do and leave me the fu** alone!! i have no desire to engage with someone as pathetic as you ok….
1 minute before I replied to you – You said
“Wow, i am seeing really funny jokes in this thread about jose reyes… Glad to see how he’s still a fan favorite in this site.. this thread is supposed to be about ike and duda, yet i see reyes name being thrown out there..”
I was the one making the funny jokes. Hysterical in fact.
If you don’t want me talking to or about you – then recognize you open the door when you do the same even if you’re trying to be “indirect” in order to get away with something.
All I did was comment on what you said – your response technique is the problem we all want to avoid, not mine.
Listen BI*** i was talking about TRS, he responded and we moved on… Keep it moving, as all you do in here in instigate people so then you can go to joe D like a little Bi** * whining and moaning about people’s behavior’s… Stop being a slimery snake for once and do not reply nor attempt to have any conversation at all with me.. you’re the worst and most pathetic person in this site and your track record speaks for itself.. Leave me along as you been told by the site’s owner ok!>?
When you complain about someone “instigating you” who by the way just replied with a baseball focused comment you would probably get more credibility if you didn’t call them a PO_S, a snake twice and a biotch 3 times. Just saying…
Why am i not surprised by your comment?? You should learn how to mind your business..
Well you put it out there for all to read, because you want people to read it. You want people to know you hate Jessep. So you are making it everyone’s business.
Every day you are presenting a case against the FO and the coaches. I don’t necessarily believe in all of it but I feel there can be some truth in there. Do you think you can persuade more people if you present your case in a light that doesn’t seem aggressive and disrespectful to other viewpoints or do you think your anger and your disregard of others is helping people see the light?
Simple rule of the internet.
if you post a comment on a public message board, it is for public consumption and comment.
If you want to have a private conversation with 1 person, send him an email.
Stick, this is a blog ok.. it is own by joe D, he stated prefectly if a blogger does not like to have a debate with someone due to problems, to please respect one desicion, joe D told that person to please comply with my wish and not engage. that person and i have a non so good history of back and forth not opt for children. if you and/or gary don’t know the history please do not butt in.. this ain’t the desert where you guys make your own happy go go rules. thank you!
Alex, why would it make sense for a FO to bash a player BEFORE trading them and thus diminishing their trade value? Now if they want to pull a Redsox and call the guy a dog once he leaves, so be it but they would not be stupid enough to do it before they trade him. If anything they would be talking about how great a guy he is and how he is ready to explode.
TRS86 — Logic seldom prevails with a person who has an agenda and keeps trying to fit all situations into the same bag. Squeeze it here, it pops out there. Funny isn’t it, how the laws of physics work? Yet the answer is always the same. Boring and repetitive are our whiners.
You have your opinion. i have mine… Hope you respect it and move on… I think hudgens along with warthen, TC and the FO should all be fired.. but then again, that’s my opinion…
Fire hudgens if you want, but bring back the same players and probably get similar if not worse results.
bad hitters trying to get pitches they can handle is better than bad players just hacking at everything they can see.
Yup, many of these same guys sucked even more under HackJo. The offense is void of talent so saying it’s Hudgens fault that Ike can’t hit LH when Ike has never really been able to hit LH is a fallacy.
Look at the lineup and at best, all you can say is Wright and Tejada have been helped by this guy!
Murphy is pretty much the same as he has always been with the exception of a drop in power.
The rest have all pretty much declined or have been made worse!
Made that way by this guy? What about those who were improved last year, declined this year and blah blah blah.
If we blame him for Duda, do we give him credit for Reyes?
WHo was improved last year?
Reyes you guys are on record as saying he was playing for a contract! Now you want to give Hudgens credit despite the fact many of you complained he wasn’t following the program?
Name the guys you think improved then explain why they declined after this guy coaching them for the second year in a row?
If you give Hudgens the blame for when hitters do poorly he has to get the credit for when they improve.
I should know better than to ask you questions I know you will just avoid like the plague because you have no one to name as improved and if forced to name them you will expose your insistence on saying they improved as baseless as it really is!
Name the guys who improved please…If not then I say he improved NO ONE!
Now you show me to be wrong and name the guys you think did improve otherwise this is just another 50 comment thread where I ask you a question and you find new and interesting ways to avoid it until eventually we start talking about how useless 200 comment threads are and who is to blame for them!
Answer the question please or conceed the point!
Concede the point? Is this some stupid game to you?
I already said, Reyes, and Cedeno. There’s two. I don’t have time right now to look for the others.
So you came up with two out of 25 (actually more like 35 with all the subs we made this year) and we already established last year that Reyes only improved due to playing for a contract and was never going to repeat that hence don’t sign him….
Thats what you have to show this coach improved the team with his philosophy?
Hell I gave you two to start with and you still couldn’t come up with more?
Tell me something if only two of your students pass your class does that make you a good teacher?
(Knowing you will probably tow the UFT line and say yes it’s not my fault My students are just dumb!)
Again, I do have a life and at that moment could not research a pointless point. My premise remains. If you give him the blame for demise you have to give him credit for the success.
Hmmm…Never seemed to stop you from ordering us to show data when it suited you now did it?
Your premise remains….. UNPROVEN!
Reyes, Cedeno, Wright, Hairston, Tejada, Turner
There’s a few who have better numbers under Hudgens than they did the previous season before Hudgens.
Again, this is pointless. He is no more to blame for the individual successes as he is to get credit for the individual successes.
Again mentioning Reyes who you agreed was playing for a contract….And he was never the passive hitter Hudgens has taught them to be!
Cedeno is better? Why because he walks more? He is not hitting any better than pagan did!
Hairston hit a lot of HRs true but his BA is still .260!
Turner came up hitting the way he did long before Hudgens got to him! Or did you forget that? Maybe we should hire the MiL Hitting coach instead!
Tejada and Wright are the only ones you can seemingly say was helped but Wright is on record as saying he went to his old coach to get himself in order and then half a season in under this great hitting coach started to look like the Wright of last year which everyone seemed to think was not very good!
In the case of Tejada it’s his ability to protect the plate that has made his BA improve and he had that long before Hudgens ever got to him as well!
So really you got nothing but a Hairston (also playing for a contract and regular playing time) and a guy hitting .270 with irregular playing time vs
Kirk
Valdespin
Thole
Duda
Davis
Torres
Bay
Nickeas
Baxter
Yep that sounds like the UFT method for judging good teachers…I had 3 or 4 students who learned in my class so I should be considered a great teacher and the other 90% of my class that failed should just be considered too dumb to learn anything!
I get to use Reyes because I said I do as well as the fact that last year I gave credit to Hudgens for his improvement.
Also, go back and check Turner’s stats and get back to me.
I did check Turners stats….See what he did his first weel here before Hudgens had any affect on him….
What did he hit then and what does he hit now?
As for the reyes point that never worked even for my Father so it’s not going to fly now!
You agreed his plus was playing for a contract which is why he wasn’t worthkeeping as it was not REAL performance or should be considered improvement!
Still you got maybe 3% of the team has improved with 97% declining!
Especially since you got rid of one of the guys you claim were improved!
Turner came up in 2010 and was awful. He came up in 2011 and Hudgens was already here and did well. Credit for the successes if blame for the failures.
Like always this is a pointless debate Metsie. For the pleasure of the readers how about we try for an entire week to not respond to each other’s post and not bring up each other’s views. I am sure the readers would appreciate it.
Awful in what 4 games and 9 PA? Really? Thats the sample rate your going on to say improvement?
Try a sippy cup instead of reaching for these straws!
Whenhe came up in 2011 he was hitting .300 and .378 then after two months of doing that the Hitting coach turned that into .209, .283, .198, .279 and now he is hitting .278 for the year!
Yeah he’s improved a lot!
He’s Good! inthe same way BAD = GOOD!
It’s only pointless because you have no point!
You say there is improvement but can’t cite it and relate anyone who has improved to the coach you say did it!
OK Metsie. Now we are done right?
Until the next time you try and make a point that has no point….
OR proof to support it.
Damn Metsie, can’t you let it go even once? Seriously? Fire and ice, oil and water. Lets just agree to disagree forever and move on for the sake of the readers.
Anyone who thinks a “One Size Fits All” Philosophy will work throughout a MLB lineup is wrong! Your fooling yourself!
A leadoff hitter should not approach ABs the same way a HR hittter like Ike Davis should!
It’s rediculous to think that any one way is THE WAY!
Bruce Lee was the master at teaching this in regards to Martial Arts, the WAY of NO WAY!
a GOOD hitting coach doesn’t try to change the batter all that much merely make his natural swing better and identify holes that are being exploited so that the batter can plug those holes.
And the way you tell the tale is as important as the meaning behind it.
Telling a batter to wait is not the same as telling a batter to LOOK FOR, one assumes what you want won’t come right away, the other suggests it can come at any time! You WAIT you take a first pitch fastball down broadway, LOOK FOR and you recognize it and crush it.
In the end having one Philosophy will lead you to ruin once the other side figures out what your doing!
Being patient to try and get a pitcher to throw more pitches is a mistake from the get go because the Pitcher is the one who decides where the ball is going and once he knows your waiting for something one place he will simply pitch to that other place you don’t like that can be called a strike!
And in the second half it has been clear, look at the games vs Phillies and Nats and it becomes clearer!
Good Pitchers can pound the strike zone without having to give you the pitch you like!
And by the time that pitch might come your already back on your heels behind in the count and now swinging defensivly not aggressively where you can do something with that pitch!
The batter can never dictate to the pitcher as the Pitcher is the one who starts the event!
and THAT is the folly of this One size fits all philosophy that many believe are ruining our offense and the kids we all think aren’t much because they aren’t hitting they are too busy waiting because thats what they were coached to do!
This is the same mistake the OBP centric guys make…Thinking the batter can make the Pitcher do something.
OBP guys think a batter can make a pitcher pitch to him or make him walk him.
But he can’t thats not how it works at all!
“Anyone who thinks a “One Size Fits All” Philosophy will work throughout a MLB lineup is wrong! Your fooling yourself!”
Who in the world is advocating that type of philosophy. I’m sorry but these coaches, players or FO personal would never got where they where if that is what they believed.
Why you might think that is happening is most of the lineup is not dynamic at all. They lack talent and those abilities to that give them specific bonuses in certain areas. Tejada in any other lineup would not be a lead-off hitter. Then you got a bunch of flat table setting kind of hitters like Murph and Wright. Duda was just over-hyped and a better a description is a “pipe-dream”. Davis is really the only player that has some true power and has a swing where the ball naturally jumps off the ball. But that’s it, the team is a bunch of clones of mediocrity.
Most of the lineup are role playing bandaids brought in by this GM because he traded away the dnamic high average hitters!
We traded a .270 hitting CF and replaced him with a guy hitting .223.
We traded a RF who hit .300 last year with 22 HRs and is hitting .267 with 29 HRs and replaced him with a bunch of guys who can’t break .260 in BA with less than half the HRs combined!
Why do I say they are teaching this throughout the lineup?
Just look they ALL seem to be waiting for the first fat strike to cross the plater before they start thier AB!
People get where they get based on who they know not always WHAT they know!
Idiots hire idiots all the time!
Actually we traded away:
.262 .322 .372 .694
for
.244 .325 .363 .687
Unfortunately for us, Pagan rebounded.
ACTUALLY a .280 Lifetime for a .239 Lifetime player!
Metsie, I have agreed to not comment on anything you say for a week. Do me the same favor. Lets see how much better it makes the site. Last time.
This is really Ike Davis’s 1st full season in the majors. AS both years either he started in minors his first year and last year was also not a full season. I am not worried about him at this time as he is not the problem we have. The rest of lineup is.
Wow, i am seeing really funny jokes in this thread about jose reyes… Glad to see how he’s still a fan favorite in this site.. this thread is supposed to be about ike and duda, yet i see reyes name being thrown out there..
Alex, I am not bashing Reyes. I was commenting on the fact of how stupid a countdown to 500,000 errors was and the fact that it was Reyes made it more relevant.
trs: it’s worth noting. maybe if some people don’t wanna read about reyes committing the mlb’s 500,000th error they should, sit this one out?
Relevant to who??? Was that a big deal?? Come on man… the bashing of the guy just to defend SA is a little pathetic no??
Who the hell is bashing him to defend SA? Come on, it’s 500,000 errors in MLB not for Jose Reyes. It could have just as easily been David Wright but luckily the Gods gave him the night off.
Terry does prattle on most of the time, and likes to put his foot in his mouth (an impressive feat for a man his age!), but he did say something profound the other day.
basically, every player in the clubhouse is available/could be traded. And with the way the team has performed the last few years, exactly the way it should be. There are no untouchables.
and you could pretty much put out a similar quote on any player (the team is discussing whether to keep/trade). Every team should do that.
If the source is correct and the Mets are interested in trading him, it makes no sense to turn him into a platoon player (with Duda playing against lefties). If I am interested in trading Davis, I want him playing everyday and getting to 30hr’s. I want to maximize his perceived value. Now we are dealing from weakness and admitting to teams that he can’t hit lefties?
Also, if you want Duda in a possible LF platoon for next year, doesn’t it make more sense to have him getting as many reps in LF as possible?
Davis did a creditable job hitting lefties before the ankle injury. His approach was to go the other way, with power. He is capable of doing it, but not if he is sitting on the bench. As a lifelong fan this organization has one again left me dazed and confused.
True…
This.
Which is why Martino says that neither are being shopped aggressively and the Mets are still deciding who the future 1B will be. One plus one = 2 every damn time. Tell me how that doesn’t fit the situation perfectly.
To find out if Duda can even play 1B you play him at 1B vs LH and to find out if he can play OF you play him in LF vs RH. Seems easy to me.
I think the latest sequence of events (Duda back at first) is nothing more than the organization showcasing Duda for a trade. The hope being that his comfort level at first base will lead to an offensive explosion at the plate and make for a very positive audition. Hey…..it could happen. But this is the Mets here and this is the way it will probably play out: Duda gets traded to an AL team where he could play 1B/DH and he’ll become a 40 HR, 100RBI offensive powerhouse. Like I said, this is the Mets.
it doesn’t make sense…..
Which is why I believe this rumor to be true!
Just because yesterday’s rumor regarding Davis being uncoachable or hangs out late looks to be untrue, why are some now saying Davis has no attitude problem?? Does one bad rumor wipe out the fact that from day one he consistently jaws with the umpires which in my opinion only hurts him? Have you not seen his antics reach a frenzied pitch at least three times this season alone? Haven’t you seen him sulking and griping in the dugout, most of the times sitting by himself? He has an attitude problem and it needs adjusting. Maybe he is coachable, and if so then I blame Hudgen’s for his continued regression against left-handers and overall.
OK, going back to the topic of the thread instead of odd personal attacks.
the premise is, would they trade Davis (for logically a good return) and swap in Duda?
well, it could happen. and the #s seem to support it, because so far they are basically the same hitter!
davis: .251/.335/.453/.788 OPS. 1 HR per 21 ABs, 1 RBIs per 6.4 ABs (751 ABs)
Duda: .260/.339/.435/.775 OPS 1 HR per 26 ABs, 1 RBI per 6.4 ABs (1123 ABs)
so basically, in their relatively short careers, other than Ike hitting some more HRs (projected to about 10 over a full season), they are equally productive. And exactly the same at producing runs (based on RBIs), though Duda even produces at a higher rate discounting driving himself in with a HR.
MiL harder to compare. Duda put up much bigger numbers, but he also spent more time there.
so as always, the past is interesting, but projecting it to the future is what makes or breaks a team. But still, don’t make it sound like Ike in his career has been babe ruth, and Duda has been a AAA lifer.
Anyway, the Mets have many holes. So if they look at 1 position where they have 2 viable options, and can trade one of them to fill other gaps, OVERALL the team can be better. You do have to give to get. And if Ike can bring back a real catcher to build around, and a solid CF, then can be better overall.
Stop being so logical…
Of course if the Mets DO feel that Davis and Duda are very similar and one has to go and Davis has more trade value then Davis will be the one traded. Makes sense. We can all disagree on who is better but that isn’t up to us anyway.
Duda also will save a few mill next year (since Ike is hitting Arb I believe). In case that is important…
You have Duda’s numbers shown for Davis, and vice versa. Course, it doesn’t make much difference, except for AB’s.
The way thinks have shaked out with the new CBA, it has completely undermined this front office’s strategy and worked against their philosophy.
For a front office that was depending on building from within with a boatload of draft picks and counting on the usual free agent compensation, that dream has been quelled. The capping on draft spending including the International Draft was a game changer for Alderson, and a huge one at that.
Sitting on your farm for five years all of a sudden looks like a terrible strategy. The question is can this front office adapt or even realize that trading for the purposes of winning or sustaining a championship caliber team just became the the top route to success.
Can this front office be aggressive on the trade front? It’s not something they can boast much success on. Other progressive GM’s have already had the foresight to see these changes in the CBA coming. It really wasn’t a surprise. Those GM’s changed tactics and became big players on the trade front.
You will never see another deal like the Wheeler/Beltran swap again. That was the last of it’s kind. Giants got burned, and everyone saw the adverse effect that came from no compensation for Beltran after he left them. It was their first glimpse into life under the new CBA where there is no free agent compensation for players traded in their walk years. We got lucky, but that perfect storm that matched a team desperate for a bat and another team asking the for a team’s top prospect won’t soon happen again.
If Alderson sticks to his guns about not trading prospects for productive major leaguers, the world will pass him by until he’s ultimately replaced with a younger and more progressive thinking model. In the meantime the franchise will remain stagnant.
WHILE CERTAINLY DAVIS IS EASILY THE PREFERRED KEEPER TO DUDA; PERHAPS THIS IS A RECREATION OF THE OLD GM PLOY FAVORED BY BRANCH RICKEY WHO WANTING TO DEAL “PLAYER X” WENT INTO TALKS BY SAYING “I’M WILING TO DISCUSS A DEAL FOR ANYONE; BUT “PLAYER X” CREATING A SALIVATIONAL RESPONSE IN THE OTHER GM WHO’S SUDDENLY ON A MISSION TO ACQUIRE THE UNREACHABLE PLAYER X INSTEAD OF THE PLAYER HE INTITIALY SOUGHT TO ACQUIRE (DAVIS) AS IN THIS EXAMPLE THE OBVIOUS PLATYER X IS DUDA; IT’S MORE LIKELY THAT TYHE ALDERSON TRIUMVIRATE((ALDERSON, DiPODESTA, RICCIARDI) SEES THE OBVIOUS BETTER PLAYER IS IKE; HOWEVER I BELIEVE IT WAS FRED WILPON THAT ONCE INDICATED HIS SPECIAL INTEREST IN IKE (RELIGOUS AFFILIATION PREFERENCE?) WHO KNOWS?
OBVIOUSLY DAVIS DOES HAVE THE GREATER TRADE VALUE WHEREBY I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THEIR FIRST TARGET TO IMPROVE RHH/OUTFIELD PRODUCTION COULD HAVE BEST BEEN SERVED BY PKGING DUDA,PARNELL &/OR MURPHY AS A PROPOSED PKG TO AZ FOR UPTON, PRESENTLY UNDER CONTRACT THROUGH ’15 @ 14.25M PER. THUS SOOTHING MUCH OF WRIGHT’S CONCERNS AS WELL AS REPLACING THE BFF HOLE LEFT BY REYES’ DEPARTURE. AN AGREESSIVE GM MIGHT THAN FLOAT WORD OUT TO BJ”S AGENT THART A DEAL CONDSTRUCTED SIMILARLY TO REYES’ @ LOWER VALUE IN YR ONE(’14) & MKT VALUE IN SUBSEQUENT 4 YRS COULD BE AVAILABLE SHOULD BJ CHOOSE TO GAMBLE ON REUNITING THE “TIDEWATER TERRORS”aka (JUSTIN UPTON, BJ UPTON., DAVID WRIGHT) SIMPLY BECAUSE AS THE WORLD KNOWS 40%+ OF OUR EXISTING PAYROLL DROPS OFF BEGINNING IN ’14.
I BELIEVE ALL OF THAT CAN CERTAINLY BE PART OF AN OFFSEASON PLAN OF DRAMATIC POWER INFUSION COINCIDING WITH IMPROVED OUTFIELD PLAY.
OVERAL PAYROLL CAN BE MAIPULATRED BY A 7M SAVINGS IN REPLACING RETREAD BULLPENERS(BATISTA,RAMIREZ,RAUSCH,ACOSTA, BYRDAK) WITH OUR MINIMUM WAGED EXCESS ARMS OF CARSON, EDGIN, HENER, McHUGH,GORSKI AS THOSE INCL 3 LHP UPGRADING THE SPLIT TO ACCOMODATE THE LH POWER HITTERS SO DOMINANT IN OUR DIVISION,( UTLEY,HOWARD, HEYWARD, FREEMAN, McCANN ETC)
SURELY THE ROTATION GETS AN IMPROVED FACELIFT WITH THE NON-TENDERING OF PELFREY, THE NON SIGNING OF YOUNG WITH THE IKELY HALF-SEASON SANTANA ELACEMENT BEING WHEELER TO EVENTUALLY COMMENCE THE 2013 SEASON POST ALLSTAR BREAK WITH A LIKELY ROTATION OF HARVEY,WHELER, DICKEY, NIESE, GEE AS THE MAINSTAYS IN WHATEVER ORDER COLLINS/WARTHAN PREFERS AT THAT JUNCTURE.
SHOULD AZ NOT BE OVERWHELMED BY THE PKG I PROPOSED THERE’S CERTAINLY A PLETHORA OF YOUNG OUTSTANDING PITCHING THAT I HAVEN’T MENTIONED BEING USED IN FLUSHING. YOUNG PITCHING…THE COIN OF THE REALM OF MLB OFFSEASONS…
Excellent article Robert. Adam Rubin is an ass and let’s leave it at that. A baseball source? Are you kidding me? It’s not like he said a source within the organization. Trade Duda to an A.L. team(Tampa Bay?) and lets move on. Ike has already proven that he can hit home runs in Citifield or for that matter anywhere.Why don’t the Mets try to get Keith Hernandez to help Ike?