NO ONE CLAIMED you said anything about Moneyball or Alderson never spending….
WE SAID THAT!

And then you brought up the 89 A’s in reply!

Are you clear now or do you have some other attempt at twist you want to try out on the site tonite?

I’m also not the one who brought up Alderson never spending anywhere he’s been. That’s just you making something up that he didn’t. I showed proof that he did spend with Oakland and SD until ownership for both Oakland and SD forced him to slash.

Do you have any evidence that McGwire took steroids when he played at USC? He was a stick figure in college. I have never seen anything linking him to steroids until around 93. 94 was when all of a sudden his arms looked like tree trunks. 93 and 94 were mostly missed due to injury and then he came back and looked like the Hulk The only guy who admitted to using them before that was Jose Canseco.

I have never seen anything linking Dave Stewart, Strom Davis, Dave Parker, Terry Steinbach, Walt Weiss, Denis Eckersly, Gene Nelson, Rick Honeycutt, Rickey Henderson, Dave Henderson, Carney Lansford, Harold Baines, Tony Phillips, Bob Welch, Mike Moore, Mike Gallego, Ron Hassey, Jim Corsi, Eric Plunk Greg Cadaret or any guy before or after these guys linked to steroids until Giambi and Tejada came along around 96-97 to go with McGwire who was probably the one who got those two involved in that stuff. If you have anything with all of those guys linked to roids then please post it. I have never seen anything linking that group. Only Canseco from day one and McGwire later on. Then Tejada and the Giambi Bros.

“And just to be clear I’m not talking about you starting it in this thread I meant the staring the entire Soap Opera regarding the 89 A’s in general!”

Again you were the one who started this whole nonsense about the 89 A’s on March 22nd of this year. Making up stories about him not being the one making decisions until 1992 which I also debunked and Joey D is the one who keeps brining it up.

“Probably because it’s the only winning team on Sandy’s resume and with all the other suck you guys need to cling to that!”

For all that suck he finished up in Oakland 1268-1164 with 4 division titles 3 AL penants and a WS title. I hope We have that much suck eventually. I can’t recall us ever making it to the WS 3 straight years. Even if you factor his SD days 397-414 with 2 more division titles he’s still 87 games over 500 with 6 total division titles.

But that team was a product of Steroids not good drafting, not good building philosophy it was the product of a can, bottle and needle nothing more!

Show evidence that anybody other than Canseco was on Roids during the 88-90 run. McGwire was still rail thin until 93-94 and nobody else was linked to roids. The Yankees and Redsox had more guys connected with Roids in their title runs then the 80′s A’s.

oh, the heck with it. Have a good night’s sleep and don’t think about that second inning in tonight’s game.

Joey

Probably because it’s the only winning team on Sandy’s resume and with all the other suck you guys need to cling to that!

But that team was a product of Steroids not good drafting, not good building philosophy it was the product of a can, bottle and needle nothing more!

Not us!

Now your using that team to pump up how smart a baseball guy he is/was when the truth of the matter is he could have used any statistical analysis even go by the color of thier hair, picked any player and had the same success if he just pumped whoever he got with as much juice as McGwire had!

Was he really SMART for drafting McGwire?
Was it the statistical analysis philosophy of Bill James that seperated him from the rest of the MLB?

Or was it all the streoids coursing through his veins that could have been pumped into anyone and make Sandy look smart?

If you want to use the 89 A’s to say he spent our reply is he had to they were all juiced up and getting big Arbitration awards!

If you want to use them to say he was smart and his system worked if you want to see it work again you have better call balco and have them make a delivery!

You are not making a case for yourself inferring I said that. I don’t know how anybody could come to that conclusion based on this

“Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction,”

But then SAYING he was behind those picks! That’s what it looks like you’re saying to me. But then SAYING HE WAS BEHIND THOSE PICKS it is a complete contradiction.

No one said he was behind those picks. What was said was his satistical formulas were used to decide those picks. It didn’t matter if Bill James thought they were quantifiable in the college ranks or not. The point is Alderson did as do a bunch of other teams. And teams today are still drafting by those formulas.

That link does absolutely nothing to make a case against the way Alderson and the A’s evaluated college talent. Bill James works for the Red Sox he does not evaluate college players. He evaluates MLB players which is why he could give no definitive answer. If you’d bother to read the link I gave you would hear scout Bill Gayton say exactly how they implemented statistical analysis into the draft.

And when I make a point about being unaware that he (i.e., “James”) had yet to find value in the stats of raw talent and to then continue the argument that Sandy made draft decisions based on his only means of reference – stats….. that too speaks for itself and a contradiction of words – he (Sandy Alderson) learned how to evaluate raw talent based on advanced statistics credited to Bill James who then said his stats at that point did not apply to evaluating raw talent.

No he did not say that his stats did not apply to evaluating raw talent and no one said that’s how they evaluate raw talent. The stats are used to determine which of the Raw talented players thay scout are chosen and who said the stats were HIS ONLY MEANS OF REFERENCE? The stats were used to determine which player they would select of the players their staff scouted. He didn’t learn to evaluate raw ralent, his scouts did. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble understanding this.

So you’re speculating that since Bill James doesn’t know for sure if his statistical analysis can be used in the college ranks that means MLB clubs can’t be using them. Again you’re speculating without evidence. Bill James doesn’t know either way because he doesn’t evaluate college statistics he evaluates MLB stats. All of these new breed executives are using these methods still today.

Why did any of the players specifically the established stars feel the need to take steroids? Canseco, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Pettite Sheffield, Dykstra, Sosa, Palmeiro, Glaus, Giambi, the list goes on and on.

I said you stated Bill James made those picks for Oakland? That is utter nonsense.

You are not making a case for yourself inferring I said that. I don’t know how anybody could come to that conclusion based on this:

“Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction, indicating that the author of that article, along with the fellow who quoted him (LOL) were unaware that even Bill James has yet to find value in stats in regards to raw talent. From an ESPN web chat he had long after those Oakland draft picks that came when Sandy was the A’s GM”

I think everyone understood I was referring to Sandy Alderson both times I used the word “he” and to infer anything else is nothing more than taking completely words out of context.

And when I make a point about being unaware that he (i.e., “James”) had yet to find value in the stats of raw talent and to then continue the argument that Sandy made draft decisions based on his only means of reference – stats….. that too speaks for itself and a contradiction of words – he (Sandy Alderson) learned how to evaluate raw talent based on advanced statistics credited to Bill James who then said his stats at that point did not apply to evaluating raw talent.

Bill James was not the reason the 89 A’s won a World Series!

MEDICAL SCIENCE was the reason they won!
Most notably BIO CHEMISTRY won it for them and made great picks out of what is likely not much of anything without the juice!

If they were really good why did they feel the need to Juice up at all?

Bill James gave no definitive answer but Oakland and other teams believe they’re useful enought so all your doing is what you always do, look for ways to get around the fact that Sandy did what you won’t let yourself believe he did. Do you even know which statistics were the ones used? I’m betting you don’t.

I noticed once I showed you multiple articles stating that Bill Rigney was in fact a consultant that you have laid off the subject. Now you think you’ve found some truth to your conjecture but it’s not there.

He still chose McGwire over Shane Mack and Odibe McDowell of the 3 players his scouts presented to him in the first round of the 84 draft. He chose power statistics over speed and athleticism of the other 2.

He hired Eric Walker when he became the GM in Oakland who was a disciple of Bill James,

“I briefly wrote about the quick changes the A’s made as a direct result of Sandy Alderson being influenced by Eric Walker’s advice over a year ago.”
”
In June of 1984, Mark McGwire was selected 10th overall ahead of two standouts like Shane Mack and Oddibe McDowell. McGwire was taken for his ability to hit for serious power and take his walks. Soon the A’s let Dave Kingman go because he couldn’t get on base despite hitting a lot of home runs. They signed Reggie Jackson to replace him. They got rid of Alfredo Griffin and replaced him with a young SS who had shown the ability to get on base in the minors, Walt Weis who won the Rookie of the Year the following season. Later they traded for Rickey Henderson and Ken Phelps, both of whom are OBP machines with power”

I’ve posted this before but you obviously just chose to ignore.

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html

Because he arrived so late in the scouting calendar, Alderson won’t be directly involved in this draft, which takes place June 7-8. In a roundabout way, however, his fingerprints will be on the Padres’ first-round pick —— 18th overall this year —— and all selections thereafter

“He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to New York.”

It says hotly persued to return to the club level but there you are speculating that it was as an executive with no real knowledge as to what position teams had persued him for. And in case you weren’t aware GM’s are also executives. You asked a question weeks ago if any other teams were ever interested in him and I just showed you a link saying he was hotly persued and now you’re speculating the positions that he was offered. Hilarious!

Kevin Towers was the GM of SD while Sandy was his boss. Kevin made his decisions based on the philosophy Alderson implemented which means he’s still involved in personnel decisions which Kevin Towers has praised him for. As he was in Oakland after he handed the GM duties to Beane and stayed on as President.

I think you need to research what exactly goes on in baseball front offices, you’re clearly lost in this matter mostly because you have an agenda. I already posted a link when Sandy was hired and posted an article with Kevin Towers praising Alderson for his input in SD.

1) I was tempted to paste that to to bring out a point about how inaccurate reporting can be but since you raised the subject…. Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction, indicating that the author of that article, along with the fellow who quoted him (LOL) were unaware that even Bill James has yet to find value in stats in regards to raw talent. From an ESPN web chat he had long after those Oakland draft picks that came when Sandy was the A’s GM:

The question was:

“It was your analysis 20 years ago that demonstrated that minor league statistics are actually useful as a predictor of major league performance. Have you looked at interpreting college statistics, or is there too much noise there? Lewis mentions in Moneyball that the A’s are putting a lot of emphasis on college stats, though it’s not clear whether they are just eyeballing raw numbers or trying to do some sort of translation.:

The answer was:

“Bill James (4:23 PM)

Well, there is a tremendous amount of noise in the data, and it is not clear to me that we can filter it all out and get useful data. But its not clear that we CAN’T, either; we just don’t know.”

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/3503

Note: just because he said it wasn’t clear that it couldn’t be done means he has no definitive answer.

2) I didn’t bother pasting that portion of the article you quoted was that it didn’t refer to clubs seeking him in terms of player personnel but in an executive capacity and when he accepted the offer from the Padres it was to be their Chief Executive Officer. Even you have quoted many times who made the player decisions in San Diego during that time frame and it wasn’t Sandy.

Sorry, but the evidence presented in itself makes for an opposite case.

Right he initially began and relied on others who had been around the game longer but what you left out when you copy and pasted all those quotes was “Using Baseball analyst Bill James statistical formulas he drafted Mark McGwire and Jason Giambi based on power and on base potential. McGwire was drafted in 1984, one year after he became GM.

He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”

At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old school ways.

Alderson kept a low profile initially.

“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” he says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”

He used that to his advantage, and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.

Using baseball analyst Bill James’ statistical formulas, Alderson drafted Mark McGwire based on his power potential and Jason Giambi based on his on-base percentage.

You have stated a few times that he wasn’t sought after since his Oakland days and there was a quote in that attachment that said he was,

He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to work in New York.

But last winter when Moores came calling, he was.

He arrived in Manhattan in 1998. Also GM’s don’t hand in resumes when a position is open. They are asked by clubs to be interviewed. Selig may have urged him but if he didn’t want to be the GM he wouldn’t have been a GM again. Selig couldn’t have forced him.

Thanks for the research.

With smaller ballparks today, it’s the percentage of capacity filled more than the total attendance which has to be considered. In the case of Citi Field, it was definately a case of charging much less much, more more to get in.

Just Curious….

1) “I’m not suggesting Selig urged him to consider the job. I just don’t believe he didn’t want the job.”

You might not be suggesting it but Sandy is certain confirming it by stating 1) about urging: “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, and 2) about wanting it: “I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”

2) And from your own attachment the owner of the A’s says Sandy Alderson did not just step in the general manager’s role and begin making player personnel decisions as you asserted but “relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.” None of us disagree with you about his use of saber metrics but as to when he began taking charge of it, which we can see was not immediate in 1982. Sandy’s own words “The way I began was keeping my mouth shut.” It was over time that he began using statistics for moves made on the major league level and running the farm system.

We can dispute the time when he began his own decision making but it certainly wasn’t when he first became the General Manager – by his own words and that of Haas.

The full quote from your attachment:

“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”

“At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old school ways.

“Alderson kept a low profile initially.

“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” he says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”

He used that to his advantage, and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.”

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/padres/2005-08-23-alderson-cover_x.htm

“He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to work in New York.”

But last winter when Moores came calling, he was ready.

Alderson missed the rhythm of a season at the club level, the “emotional day-to-day winning and losing. This came up with a great owner, a great location, a new park and a team that has some positives. It was really a no-brainer

“That was just for Joey who’s said on a few occasions that Alderson didn’t really want the job and that no other teams had interest in him since he left Oakland.”

Forgot to mention

1) I’ve attached Sandy’s quote before
2) It was again implied that I said something that was not true.

Hi Fonzie:

1) These are Sandy’s own words about how strong his desire was to become Mets General Manager:

- “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”

Those are Sandy’s words, not mine or a third person’s. Article at tthe bottom

2) A writer’s editorial suggesting the Cubs pursue Sandy Alderson is not the same as the Cubs pursuing him:

- “OK, fine, let him go and generally manage the Mets. Meanwhile, why hasn’t Cubs owner Tom Ricketts inquired about a guy like Alderson to help him evaluate Jim Hendry and the club since he admits he is not a baseball guy?

Neither is one reporting a circulating rumor::

- “I’d meant to touch on this sooner, but hadn’t gotten around to it. You may recall several days ago that it was reported that a rumor making the rounds was that Ricketts would like to hire Sandy Alderson when he becomes the team’s owner. ”

——

BY PETER BOTTE

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Wednesday, February 02, 2011

Sandy Alderson had said Monday that he’s had no second thoughts about taking the Mets GM job in the fall. But he conceded Tuesday night that without baseball commissioner Bud Selig’s urging, he probably wouldn’t have even applied for the position or left his previous job with MLB cleaning up its Dominican operation.

“Probably not and the reason was I was already working,” Alderson said during an appearance to benefit the Fans for the Cure prostate cancer charity in Manhattan. “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”