3
2012
Daniel Murphy: Deceptively Good At Second Base
An article by 
When I first started to write this piece about a week ago, it was going to be about why Daniel Murphy is not the answer at second base for the Mets. I questioned why some Mets fans are obsessed with this player that was, to me at least, a fringe major leaguer at best. I argued that he wouldn’t even start for the majority of major league teams. I proclaimed if you are going to have a player who is a defensive liability at any position, he better be well worth it offensively, and Murphy being a slap hitter, isn’t worth it. Then I looked at his stats…
Could it be the Mets actually got it right with Murphy? Could he actually be our second baseman of the future? He’s starting to pass the eye test defensively – making some nice plays and cutting down on his errors. He has done better than most projected defensively, but he is still ranked 20/20 out of major league second baseman (that qualified being ranked) in fielding percentage. His fielding percentage is .971. Offensively, the only position his stats qualify him for are second base or shortstop. He would be like a throwback offensive middle infielder, slapping the ball around the field and setting the stage for the heavy hitters in the lineup. The problem is, those throwback guys had great gloves – Murphy is still adjusting to the position.
Oddly enough, Murphy ranks in the top ten in almost every offensive category for second basemen this season. The homerun category is where we see a serious drop off. Offensively, he is holding his own in the second base ranks, which may be why he finally found a home. But the question remains whether he will keep progressing defensively. If he can take the next step defensively, then there is no doubt in my mind that Murphy can be a very good second baseman for years to come. He may never play in an all-star game, but he can definitely be a top ten second baseman in this league.
Fans will have to temper their expectations for Murphy. He’s not going to be a 20 homerun guy, and most likely never going to win a gold glove, but it doesn’t mean he can’t be a solid major league player. Everyone wants a Robinson Cano at second base, but the reality is that Murphy’s offensive skill set is perfect for the prototypical second baseman. That’s why it’s so important for Murphy to get his defensive skills up to par. When you think about it, there is only a handful of second basemen that fans would rather have playing, other than Murphy, when compared to the other second basemen in the league. That says a lot about how far he’s come, and hopefully, where he is going.
About the Author: Mitch Petanick
Mitch is currently an Editor and Minor League Analyst for Mets Merized Online. His baseball experience includes being a former All-Conference collegiate baseball player who had numerous professional tryouts, and he is currently a hitting instructor. He has been involved with the game of baseball for over 30 years now as a player, coach, and consultant. Mitch is also a former Featured Columnist on Bleacher Report. You can follow him on Twitter @FirstPitchMitch.
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It’s like you said Mitch Murphy among all MLB 2B has the 6th best BA,12th best OBP, 11th best SLG, 6th in Hits, 9th in RBI’s and 3rd in doubles. The Mets can do a lot worse than Murphy at 2B.
His Glove work at 2b has improved since the start of the season. He will never be a great defender but until something better comes along he fits the Mets needs just fine for now at 2B.
And, of course, when they get rid of him, he’ll become the next Jeff Kent.
Well I have been trying (almost to no avail) to defend Murphy as a keeper for awhile.
Seems people just want to trade him and you will get before the day out at least one person to say “He’s nothing more than an AL DH”
As for his power numbers how much power does a 2B need?
He will never be a 30-40 HR guy but lets face it neither is Wright and no one complains about his power at an even bigger power position than 2B!
Lets also remember the numbers this year are after he has had two knee operations.
He hit 6 Hrs in half a season last year and 12 the year before that.
He has played the entire season true but he didn’t hit his first HR until sometime in June! Thats nearly half a season and most likely because he was not getting the leg drive you need to pop it over the fence due to those Knee Surgeries.
Because he has not played a full season since 2009 it is also reasonable why he would be a bit tired and slumping in the dog days of August.
With the glove he will make a few errors from time to time but he will also make some great plays like he has the past two games that prove he can make the spectacular and as he learns the position, those knees respond better, His stamina for a full season improves will make more of them and fewer of the errors.
And Murphy is a big part of the FIGHT we saw from the team earlier in the season.
I say the IF is set and anyone looking to trade him is merely looking for another good player to get rid of in favor of some more maybes in the Minors.
I think he did a great job despite room for improvement and it sure doesn’t hurt that he can backup Wright and Davis should the need ever arise.
He is a keeper and for my money you can get whatever you think you will get for Murphyb by trading kids that have no role here now that Murphy has locked up the final IF position for the next 4 or 5 years!
Hi Mitch,
Excellent and objective look at Murphy. Though he might not have the range of other second basemen nor the power of some others, factor in his overall game. He is also not making the mental mistakes of being out of position like earlier this year – in fact, on one recent bad relay play from the outfield, Murph was pointed out as being the only one who was in the right defensive position.
If nothing else, trading Murphy will open up a hole at second just like the trading of Angel Pagan opened up a hole at center – and coupled with the corner outfield positions, the many questions surrounding Thole and our bullpen needs, another hole is something we don’t need at this time and counting on our farm system to produce.
The trading of Pagan didn’t creat the hole in CF, Pagan was a hole in CF. He killed this team with his defense last year and didn’t offer uch with his bat either. He’s not been any better this year defensively for the Giants and aside from a hot May and a hot August he’s done nothing with the bat either.
Even if we kept Pagan we still need to upgrade CF. Torres is not the answer and we have to find out if Nieuwenhuis and or Den Dekker are. I wouldn’t take Pagan back for free. As far as Murphy. He’s a LH bat off the bench/ spot starter on a good team. He starts at 2B right now for us because we don’t have anything better. We have a dearth of capable middle infielders down on the farm or else he wouldn’t be our starting 2Bman.
Sure it did, Pagan was a much better CF and Hitter than Torres has been!
Better hitter, not fielder. Torres is better defensively and has improved after misjudging a few earlier in the year. We already had a hole in CF we just failed to patch it up. When Nieuwenhuis was hitting righties and Torres was hitting lefties they were totally outproducing Pagan as a platoon. I don’t get the 2nd guessing of moving Pagan after watching him kill our pitching staff last year.
By how much .005 better? Is that worth losing .065 of Bat? Hardly!
And Torres is still misjudging Fly Balls and is just awful at positioning himself for hitters where he constantly has to run a mile to get to the ball!
Face it you DEGRADED the CF position!
What? He hasn’t misjudged a flyball in a long time. What the heck are you talking about positioning? Positioning is done by the coaching staff. They position the INF and OF. Fielding percentage isn’t a very good measuring tool for defense and I already said Pagan is the better hitter. Degraded? Hardly. If Kirk continued to at least hit RHP then we’d be just fine in CF and the way Pagan played CF last year you can hardly fault the FO for wanting to upgrade an important defensive position. Torres is only a stop gap anyway. He’s not going to be here next year. You’re doing what you used to get on tagee for, 2nd guessing.
What am I talkng about?
the TRUTH….deal with it!
and hasn’t misjudged a fly ball in a long time…tell me when was the last time Pagan did it LAST year?
Really!
Fonzie,
You cant possibly defending that trade!
Torres played a terrible CF for half the season…and he has been far inferior to Pagan…
All the issues Pagan had here it doesnt come close to the garbage-ness that Torres has brought here…He was sold to Mets fans as an upgrade defensively who would bring stability to the OF and lead-off spot in the lineup….He has done neither
I’m fully aware of this site’s aversion to sabermetrics, but if you were to compare their WARs which considers all things Angel Pagan 3.4 vs Andres Torres 0.8. It’s a landslide in Pagan’s favor.
Even if you were to add in Ramon Ramirez’s War of 0.1, this was an awful trade for the Mets. It wasn’t even, it wasn’t a slight edge, it was one of the most completely lopsided trades of this past offseason by any team and the evidence bears that out.
The Giants toasted the Mets on this one.
I’m not defending the trade, it didn’t work out but you can’t now 2nd guess it because it didn’t work out. It’s easy to say after the fact but the fact is the majority of the people here thought it was a good trade when it was made and to me I would’ve non trendered Pagan myself because he was miserable in CF didn’t do much with the bat and was not a favorite of the manager.
Point was trading away Pagan didn’t create a hole in CF, Pagan was a hole in CF. They just didn’t fill the hole when they brought in Torres.
Torres was only supposed to be a plce warmer until Kirk was ready and he got stuck playing most of the time due to injury. When Kirk and Torres were platooning ,Kirk was hitting RHP well and Torres was and still is hitting LHP well so we got better production out of CF before Kirk went into the Tank than the Giants got from Pagan.
Pagan had 1 HR and 27 RBI’s out of the 5th spot in the lineup in May, June and July. lets not make it out to be like Pagan is having a monster year. He’s had a great August a good May avg wise and nothing in between and his defense has been worse than Torres as bad as you think Torres was in the 1st half, Pagan has still been worse.
The centerpiece of that trade was Ramirez, Torres was the throw in. If Ramirez pitches like he did the previous 4 years then nobody is 2nd guessing that trade. He was sold as a defensive upgrade and a downgrade offensively. Nobody said anything about adding stability to the leadoff spot. The only thing they expected from him was his speed and defense and his defense regressed but still not as bad as Pagan’s defense.
So you traded a regular CF with a Placeholder!
AND CREATED A HOLE IN CF!
Yeah he did he got hurt on opening day which is why Kirk got called up early to begin with.
If you watched the games in 2011 you would’ve seen just how bad Pagan was but you were probably in here flaming out every thread. Pagan was a hole the problem was is Torres didn’t plug the hole which is why we’ll have a new CF next year. I’m not arguing that Torres isn’t any good I’m saying Pagan wasn’t either. Being a better hitter but worse fielder really isn’t saying much.
I watched ever game in both years!
You do realize your the only one on the planet that thinks this was a good deal you know that?
I suppose we are all Liars and your the only one telling the truth on this trade right?
Yes Torres got hurt and then a rookie no one thought was ready TOOK his job even after he was healthy again!
But how come when the trade was criticized at the time it happened all we heard was that it was too early to judge, and now if you criticize the trade it’s second guessing? Are trades no longer up for criticism under any circumstances under Alderson?
Didn’t you get the Memo?
There is apparently only one day that isn’t too early or 2nd Guessing anything Sandy does…Apparently we all missed it!
LOL
My recollection that there were more against the trade – not so much being fans of Angel – as they were believing we could have gotten more in return. I was happy getting Ramirez but couldn’t understand myself why we couldn’t get more for Angel than we did. My only thought was that the Mets were taking a big gamble on the outside chance that Torres wasn’t a one year wonder as a full-time outfielder.
I still think the prime motive was cost savings – getting two players for less than a half million more than it would have cost to have one. Torres was also going on 34 and with Sandy’s recent comments about “inexpensive players” I don’t doubt my hunch is correct.
Pagan was a hole. The hole was not fixed with Torres but the hole in CF was when Pagan forgot how to play the position. Trading him was not the problem. The problem was the centerpiece of the deal having the worst year of his career and Torres not playing CF as well as he has his enitre career.
Joey I don’t hink money had as much to do with it. They were trading a player that went south on them for a reliever who had been excellent for 4 straight years and Torres was nothing more than a throw in. He wouldn’t even be playing as much as he has if Kirk continued to hit righties and Bay didn’t go down twice.
After the way Pagan played last year I find it hard to believe anybody would gripe about trading him away. I was all for non tendering him and Pelfrey but I guess that some people really miss that sub 500 team that roamed Citifield. To each is own I guess.
If somebody 2nd guesses the previous GM all hell breaks loose. 2nd guessing is only okay if it involves a Sandy move.
And Joey what do you think you’re going to get for Pagan coming off a year like last year? The time to trade him was after 2010 to get something good back .When you trade off a year like 2011 you’re not getting a big return.
And for all the griping about trading away K-Rod, Beltran, Pagan and letting Reyes walk the team is still playing about the same as they were with those guys. We sucked with them and we could suck without them.
Oh Please just admit it already and move on…
Pagan was not a hole he didn’t force the FO to bring up a kid early to play CF because Pagan was bad!
Torres did I mean he didn’t even make it to opening day did he?
Deceptive being the operative word. Sorry folks but Murphy is a super-utility guy on a good team
I have been a Murphy defender since 2009. The kid has the attitude and will to suceed. He works hard and is great in the Clubhouse. Over the 4 years he has moved from position to position & has helped this team. He plays a good 1st base when he covers for Ike, & is a 3rd baseman from the beginning. He is 2nd in hitting after David Wright. Sandy likes him alot & has said so. He can be our 2nd baseman for years to come & will get better every day. There really is no one in the minors for 2nd right now so he will be there in 2013. The pressure of learning 2nd will be off & he can concentrate on his offense which will be better.
Right now, at the very least he’s not a problem. Though I’m hoping that Flores can provide roughly the same amount of defense along with more homeruns and the same average and take over the job in 2014. Not to mention we also have Evans and Cechinni in the lower levels; it’s possible that one of them might establish themselves in the next few years, and we could move them over to second provided Ruben’s still around. But there’s no doubt in my mind that Murph should be starting at second on opening day next year.
Flores has as much range as Murphy probably less….Flores is a 3B whom is only playing the position in the minors on occasion because Marte was blocking him in Double A.
Murphy has proved to be better — make that far better — than our resident contingent of naysayers ever predicted. His bat is a doubles machine, with his 33 doubles tieing him for first place in the National League and third place in both leagues. Some of his recent plays in the field are Top Video quality.
Mitch Petanick — Synonyms for ‘deceptive’ include: delusive – deceitful – delusory – false – misleading.
Which of these terms did you mean? Oh, you didn’t really mean deceptive? I thought so.
Hey Des, nice to see you here again. Any word or news on Reese Havens?
Maniac — No. Maybe his star has gone out. According to Billy Beane, some 40% of 1st Rounders never get to swing a bat in the majors. We’ll see in 2013.
I meant deceptive
Mitch — On my monitor I’ll replace ‘deceptive’ with ‘surprisingly.’ That works for me.
I have been a Murphy critic, but with his significant improvement at 2nd this year, I now see him as a solid piece of this team. He has shown he has the ability to learn as he has demonstrated an ability to be a rather good defensive player at 2B. Aside from the absence of the long ball, he is a good component of the lineup. There are bigger problems on this team that need fixing other than Dan Murphy. He is good enough for now until such time as a new youth, such as Wilmer Flores, is ready to come up from the minors. For now leave 2B alone and instead concentrate on fixing the OF, the catching position, and the BP.
He is average at best and he stinks at worst.Born to DH or pinch hit.What is the fascination with this hack??I don’t get it.
He needs to hit 15 hrs a yr if The Mets will seriously consider him as a future longterm second baseman.
It’s hard to ignore what he does offensively to blindly say 15hr is the only way to consider him a long term 2bman – it would be nice to get double digit home runs though
You have to laugh when you hear Mets fans complaining about Murphy’s lack of power at 2B. As if our previous 2nd Baseman(Luis Castillo) was hitting light tower shots. In 4 season with the Mets he Castillo hit a whopping 5 Homers, also cant forget his 31 doubles over that 4 year span which is less than Murphys had this year whom has 33.
Murphy isnt the problem, the problem is the Mets dont have enough professional hitters ot power hitters which is why Mets fans nit-pick when it comes to Murphy.
And all roads lead right back to that stupid new organizational philosophy of trying to make EVERY hitter work a pitcher deep. That is so stupid i cannot believe people are trying to do this at a professional level. If you heard the radio show the other day they were saying there were complaints in the minors that some of the kids are not hitting like they should because they are being forced to “work the pitcher and go deep into counts.
Your hitting approach changes daily depending on who’s pitching/and what the game situation at hand dictates you to do. Like a couple weeks ago Andres Torres took a fat fastball with nothing on it right down the middle for a first pitch strike, with runners in scoring position. That situation calls for a hitter to be in attack mode, not passive mode..and ESPECIALLY when you’re hitting low in the order – you have to drive those runs in and not leave it for the next guy.
That is so stupid it’s beyond words. Everybody is different and should be coached on a case by case basis – if they even need any help. You want to sacrifice your own hitting ability for the sake of trying to get a pitcher to go deep into the count? I mean it’s right there for all to see – all that’s going to do is favor the pitcher. Deep counts mean a better chance of the pitcher using his out pitch and of course less good pitches to hit (which come earlier in the count) and less HRs. Of course there’s going to be less power when guys are now constantly hitting with 2 strikes. All this does is give a young talented hitter more to think about instead of developing him within his own ability. Some guys have good eyes and some not as good – you can’t make them all do the same thing especially when depending on the type of hitter you are it affects the job you’re supposed to do.
So what if Ronnie Cedeno is a guy who’s benefitted from being more patient. That’s as old as the hills and any batting coach who is trying to work with a hitter can get that done as long as there is communication between the two. One can say this philosophy has been a detriment to Lucas Duda, Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, and even WRight to some extent. Everybody is hitting less HRs except Ike because they were probably messed with. Didn’t somebody on this very site say Dave Hudgens was “hands off” as far as Ike Davis is concerned? Although i never read that in any official periodical – only heard it here.
This nonsense of trying to make everybody work pitchers deep into the count has got to GO or else you are going to ruin your minor league talent as well. That’s a terrible way to play baseball. You don’t win backing into a situation.
The deeper the count the better it is for the pitcher to use his out pitch and the less chance of getting a pitch to drive.
What they’re trying to do here is use the by-product of a players talent and make it uniform for everyone. Bad idea.
I don’t ever remember Milan or Backman ever hitting 15 HRs in a season…
If I’m not mistaken the most Teufel ever hit was 14!
Jeff Kent is probably the only one we have had at 2B who ever hit 20 and he went on to be a 30 HR guy as soon as he left!
And Finally Roberto Alomar made it into the hall without ever hitting more than 24 in a single year.
Alfonzo hit 27 in 99 and 25 in 2000
Yep and they played him as much at 3B as they did 2B….
Truth is he was a SS but how the hell you going to steal a job from Rey Ordonez who could field the position second only to maybe Ozzie Smith!
No In 99 and 2000 Ventura was the everyday 3rd baseman and Alfonzo was the everyday 2nd baseman. Alfonzo played 3B in 98 and in 2002 when they traded for Robby Alomar. Yes he was a SS and was moved for Ordonez. You got that part right.
Yadda Yadda Yadda…So your saying Alfonse never played 3B for the mets NEVER!
Ok Mr Truth Angel!
Whatever you say!
Which part of Alfonzo played 3B in 98 and again in 2002 after they acquired Alomar did you not understand? I’m well aware of the positions he played I just said he played 3B and he even played some games at SS. WTF is your problem?
Where in my post did I mention a year?
I said he was not just used as a 2B!
Your the one who tried to change the subject to certain years just so you could try and make a point that really had nothing to do with is Murphy good enough to be the long term 2B!
Dude I was trying to help you out. You said Jeff Kent was the only 2nd baseman you recall hit more than 20. All I did was refresh your memory and say Alfonzo hit over 20 in 99 and 2000 when he played 2B exclusively.
Alfonzo played more games at 3B than any other position all I did was say that he hit 27 and 25 at 2B in back to back years and you answered back that they played him at 3B as much as 2B. Yes except not in those years. 99-01. He hit those HR’s in years when he played 2B only. That’s all. No need to get confrontational.
Ok First off when talking about Kent and the others I was only talking about guys who played only 2B!
Second Alfonso was our 2B for only two years and mostly because of (as I mentioned) Oquendo!
Alfonso played every IF position except 1B which is why I didn’t mention him at all because he was as much a 3B and SS as he ever was a 2B which was only because there was someone else who were only suited for SS and 3B where Alfonso could play anywhere!
He didn’t play 2B because of what he hit he played 2B because he was the only one who could play there at the time!
Totally different subject than what we were on which was….
How much Power do you need to be a regular 2B for the Mets or MLB!
“Ok First off when talking about Kent and the others I was only talking about guys who played only 2B!”..
Ok I was only going by you saying Kent was the only one we’ve had at 2B to hit 20. And Kent also played 3B for us too.
When they brought Ordonez up they moved Vizcaino from SS to 2B and Kent became our 3B starter with Alfonzo and Bogar our backup middle infielders until Vizcaino and Kent were traded for Baerga.
And Alfonzo played 2B for 3 years 99-01. I don’t see what the big deal is. They both played multiple positions.
This is how the 200 comment threads start dude…
You (and/or TRS) think you have me on something you misread that has nothing to do with the point I was making…I respond to clarify and you continue to make your point that has nothing to do with the subject (in this case, how many HRs does a guy have to have to be a regular 2B in the MLB) and in the back and forth 50 comments are made that are pointless and totally off topic!
Tell me Fonzie does a guy have to hit more than 15 HRs to be an everyday 2B Yes or No?
If No then why are you pressing this crap about Alfonso and if Yes then explain why….
But I’m not going to keep playing the Yes I got lost but to hide it I’m going to change the entire discussion to what I THOUGHT it was not what it really is game with you!
Yeah this is how 200 comment threads start. By me saying there was another 2Bman besides Jeff Kent to hit more than 20 HR’s in a season. Yeah it was me who saying Alfonzo hitting 27 and 25 in back to back years as a 2Bman that’s starting this senseless back and forth.
It’s not you saying “Yep and they played him as much at 3B as they did 2B” after I pointed out that he hit those HR’s as a 2Bman.
It was me who correctly said he hit those HR’s playing 2B while Ventura was our 3Bman and said Alfonzo played 3B before Ventura and after Alomar was brought in to which you replied
” Yadda Yadda Yadda…So your saying Alfonse never played 3B for the mets NEVER!” even though I already said he did play 3B. To which I replied I just metioned that he played 3B.
Then it was you who said “Ok First off when talking about Kent and the others I was only talking about guys who played only 2B!”
And I replied in my all out effort to get this back and forth up to 200 comments cause I aspire to be a nuisance to this site like you that Jeff Kent also played 3B like Alfonzo.
So yeah It was me who only wanted to refresh your memory that there was indeed another Met 2Bman that hit over 20 not once but twice to which you could’ve easily responed with “Oh yeah I forgot about him” instead of answering back with misinformation and getting pissed off for me correcting it. I had no intentions of making a war of words pointing out Alfonzo’s 2 years over 20 HR’s.
Now I’ll answer your question: “Tell me Fonzie does a guy have to hit more than 15 HRs to be an everyday 2B Yes or No?” The answer is no. There is no set number of HR’s an everyday 2Bman needs to hit but it also depends on the type of player he is. Our 2 title years 69 and 86 we got a total of 5 HR’s out of 2B in both years.
A guy like Castillo in his prime was a table setter who got on base for the middle of the order, stole bases and played GG defense with the marlins was good enough to win a championship with.
A guy like Murphy who’s a well below average defender doesn’t even need to hit more than 15 but he better have a year like last year when he hit 320 and got on base at 360 and drove in big runs or else you can’t carry his defense. If he’s not gonna hit for a high average like last year then he’s not gonna cut it as our everyday 2Bman unless he hits some more HR’s with that 280/320 OB.
Right now we have bigger fish to fry at the catcher position, Center and Rightfield as well as the bullpen, AGAIN. 2B is at the bottom of the to do list.
“He’s still ranked 20/20″
Enough said.
Comparing Murphy the jouneyman at best to a HOF’er like Alomar.For most of his career Alomar was a better player than Murphy with one hand tied behind his back.Laughable.I can’t wait till Murohy is traded so i don’t have to see these waste of space stories about a hack ballplayer…
Who compared Murphy to Alomar…all we did was compare Alomar to the notion that you have to hit 15 HRs or you can’t be a good 2B with a long career.
In his 17 year career he hit more than 15 HRs in just 5 of them.
Metsie, my bad on the Alomar comparison.The bottom line on DM is he does not hit for power, cannot steal a lot of bases, even though he has improved is adequate at best in the field and has terrible baseball iq.I love him with a bat in his hands.Trade him to the AL in the offseason where h can DH and lets move on already
NP Gary….And I’m not even going to try and convince you your wrong about DM because your not totally wrong in what you say….
But trading him for something trying to replace him appears to me akin to worrying more about watering the lawn while the house is on fire!
It’s an issue of focus and importance.
Who is worse and needs replacing more: (Pick a name and then repeat until only one name remains as your keeper)
A) Torres
B) Thole
C) Bay
D) Murphy
Out of that group if you could keep only one player which one would you keep?
I bet it’s Murphy!
I know he has value and the others do not, so people think Well he should be EASY to trade! We Might even get two players for him! WRONG!
Because even if we got two players what are you going to get for a guy who you think of the way you do?
Flores is not a 2B…
Valdespin might be able to be one but his bat has showed none of the consistency of Murphy’s, His best work coming as a Pinch Hitter!
Truth is everything you said about Murphy could be said about Tejada… a Singles hitter who can’t steal bases. The only difference is in the glove and instincts.
If and when 2B becomes the part of the team that can most use the improvement I’ll entertain trading Murphy.
But there are MUCH BIGGER fish to fry this offseason.
We are not losing games because of Murphy’s glove or bat or lack of stealing.
We are losing them because our OF sucks and needs wholesale replacing!
When those three positions lock themselves up I’ll be happy to look at improving on a guy who has only 4 fewer doubles than David Wright!
Murphy suffers from what I call “Miguel Cabrera Syndrome”. He doesn’t “look like” a guy who should play that position. His body might be “wrong” he looks a little choppy, and epople think he doesn’t cover the area well. It is assumed he’s there simply ebcause the team wants him hitting everyday and had nowhere else to stick him.
The reality is, however, that he actually covers the spot well enough and is at least average at the position when all is said and done.
Contrast this with “Derek Jeter Syndrome” when a player is well regarded at a position because he looks pretty playing it, but an objective analysis shows him to be subpar.
Hi Fonzie,
Pagan returned to some of his old, non-thinking habits in 2011, that is true, however, in 2010 he was being applauded for using his head properly. He would still be light years ahead of what we have now – Torres was touted as our center fielder for the next two seasons with that two year contract and if he was expected to be just the fourth outfielder in lieu of Kirk or others down in the farm, then we could have done better for an every day player than just a good middle reliever (which so many refer to the role as a year by year a crap shoot).
As far saving about a half million dollars, the Mets have made other moves to save even those small amounts – including eliminating the St.Lucie Rookie Team (which on executive said ran between $400K and a million dollars to operate totally) plus 15 employees mid and low level employees who had been with the franchise for many, many years. Connect everything together and it shows a definite pattern – as speculated by many others like below:
http://www.metstoday.com/7310/11-12-offseason/mets-cutting-rookie-league-team/
Joey, Pagan makes 4.85 and Ramirez and Torres combine for 5.4. They didn’t save money they tried to fill 2 holes with just a bit more money. Didn’t work out becuase Ramirez fell off the map after 4 excellent seasons in a row and Torres can’t hit a RHP to save his life.
Torres doesn’t have a 2 year contract. He’s under team control for 2 years. They could offer him arbitration if they want or non tender him making him a free agent. He’s not signed for next year.
They didn’t bring Torres in here thinking they had a long term answer in CF. they brought him in to upgrade the defense and keep the seat warm until Kirk was ready. CF wasn’t an issue until Kirk stopped hitting RHP. Pagan still has been worse in CF this year. Even statistics show he has it’s not only having seen him botch flyball after flyball, every stat traditional and advanced tell he’d bee poor again in CF. I don’t miss him at all. Sandy shouldve traded him when he got here coming off his one good year. Teams had interest in him. That was the bigger mistake. He sold low off a down year.
And dumping the GCL isn’t that big a deal. We still have as many minor league affiliates as everybody else and even more than some teams still. Less than half of MLB has a GCL team left. They have 2 A ball Rookie leagues Kingsport and Brooklyn. They are one of only 4 teams to have 2 Dominican Leauge teams.
We still have 8 minor league affiliates. Most teams have 7 and some only 6. we had 9, 10 when they had a team in Venezuala 3 years ago. And they only let go of the Pacific Rim scout which means no more Kaz Matsui’s. We still have more area scouts on staff then ever before. I wouldn’t worry about not having scouts in the Pacific.
I agree the cuts were to save money. We all know they were a sinking ship running out of life boats but they cut areas of excess. They still are no worse than any other team and still have more affiliates than some other teams. The 50 million from the payroll was the bigger concern than the cuts you just posted.
Hi Fonzie,
I agree with you that Torres was just a stop-gap but that more could have been acquired for everyday center fielder than an older fourth outfielder and middle reliever. But getting better talent would have also cost more (which other teams looking to dump salary might have agreed to) and based on what we’ve seen, cost played a factor. By spending less on two they did save money.
You have valid points about the Pacific Rim and the rookie team but someone I know did mention that the loss of the St. Lucie rookie team also meant the loss of roster spots and when we take this into account with the fact that we didn’t sign half our draft picks the actual motives behind that decision do see more tied into economics than eliminating unnecessary player development over-costs.
If you noticed the comments attached to that post, one of them asked how a team in the biggest market in the country, with television rights and merchandising and all other sources of revenue, could lose money. It’s still mind-bogging to see it actually happening.
Take care
Yes Joey I was actually just reading the comments. It is hard to believe that a NY team is being run this way. The Wilpons screwed themselves with not only Madoff but funding Citifield and opening it when the team was in the midst of a downturn which hurt their profitability. If they opened Citifield say right after 2006 then that place would’ve been sold out every night for the first 2-3 years.
They happened to open it in a miserable season when everybody got hurt and the backups to the backups got hurt. Since then it’s been all down hill for this franchise. Unfortunately they can’t be forced to sell like the Dodgers were because Wilpons only crime was to not know how to run a sports franchise. he didn’t rob the team like Frank McCourt did in LA.
Like i said before the return for Pagan would’ve been much better if they traded him prior to 2011 coming off a solid 2010 season. When you trade someone off a bad year you sell low and take back less. It’s like if the Mets decided to trade Wright after last season the return would be much less than if they decided to trade him right now. Not that I’m suggesting trading Wright.
Hi Fonzie,
Yes, it’s mind boggling how a franchise with such sources of revenue can be so broke. We all know that teams make their fortunes through a combination of attendance and television so I never expected the Mets to become broke but I thought the Wilpons laid the foundation for making the Mets a losing proposition financially attendance wise back in 2009 by out-pricing themselves but here’s an article written in 2007 which had already anticipated what was going to happen to the average fan long before I did. So we were to be screwed even before most of had even heard of Bernard Madoff.
http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/matthews-lobs-a-brick-at-the-wilpons-monument-to-avarice-greed
You guys need to realize there is a BIG difference between Losing money and Being Broke!
Losing money can MAKE you broke but losing money doesn’t mean you ARE broke!
Neither does having outstanding loans mean you ARE broke!
If you were REALLY broke you wouldn’t have gotten the loan in the first place thats what credit checks are for!
Businesses lose money all the time. Especially in this economy.
Wilpons have various means at thier disposal to pay those bills, but before they use them they will look for other ways that don’t involve using thier money as any business owner would do!
They have cut nearly 60 Mil from payroll from thier last profitable year and reduced other overhead they had.
The problem with spending is not because the Wilpons are broke it’s because thier GM is stupid and thinks a 64M Payroll is going to work in the biggest market in the country!
And when they get there and they STILL lose money then you will see the WIlpons are flush with cash they can spend to get fans back in the seats because they will have to spend before the losses in attendance and corresponding loss of revenue DOES make them go broke because they have run out of options to pay the bills other than RAISE REVENUE!
PUT FANNIES in the SEATS!
Hi Metsie,
You are right – I used the wrong terminology – of course they are not broke, but they have lost money. We know of the half billion investment with Madoff and the roughly sixteen percent annual dividend from it which both went up in smoke. Add that to the loans they now have to pay off and there is little money that they can divert from sources of revenue related to the Mets which most clubs do.
This was suggested in the attached appearing in Amazin’ Avenue last December:
“How did the Mets cover that budget deficit?
“We don’t really know. Some of it — probably around $40-50 million — came from their SNY stake. Another $25 came from the loan from MLB. That comes close to, and might even exceed, $70 million. However, the New York Post (third to last sentence) claims that the Wilpons put $38 million into the Mets this year in order to keep the team solvent. Where this money came from is unknown; it may have simply been the Mets’ share of SNY profits; it may have been additional.”
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/12/11/2627933/an-in-depth-look-at-the-mets-finances
Know I’ve attached this before but it is worth noting just how much sports franchises depend upon television for their revenue and that regional networks and/or television rights are more important to them than attendance figures.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?pagewanted=all
With the loans beginning to have to be paid back, along with the losses incurred by Madoff combined with the drop in attendance and ticket prices, it does all come back to Murphy – the law and not Daniel. I would think that even if the Mets were able to sell out Citi Field each night, the Met organization would still be run by Sandy and retracting because so much is needed to pay back what they owe.
First off Joey so u know…Those two sources you linked to don’t hold much with me as I consider both of them more biased than factual.
NYTimes had a friend of Picard’s posting all sorts of stuff that was hardly true or accurate all to help his buddies extortion scheme to get the Wilpons to settle out of court. Most of which were later proven to be untrue which is why the Wilpons got the sweetheart settlement they eventually did…
And I don’t think much of what is said on the site I deem Alderson Avenue!
There is no real clarity as to who actually owned that half a billion that is supposedly lost to Madoff…
There is even some speculation that those funds were not Fred and Sauls, They certainly were not any Met accounts most likely accounts of the Employee retirement fund and some family members not directly related to Met Finances or the team itself.
Sure they were getting high dividends from Madoff about 6-8% more than the REAL market can get you!
So now they have to leave thier investments in twice as long to get the same money…Big Deal!
If Sandy Alderson went to Fred tomorrow and said he had a guy who could help this team win but it will cost us a 15 Mil for 6 years for a total of 90 Mil I bet he would get the go ahead to sign him from Fred!
Sandy is NEVER going to do that! Cause he don’t like to do that!
The only ones who really harp on the Wilpons for the lack of spending are from two groups…
Those who want to give Sandy an Excuse and those who hate the Wilpons and even blame them for the rainy day!
If they had NO money or if they were broke they would not have just signed up for a massive development deal to gentrify anf rebuild the area around CitiField!
You need money to do that…Lots and Lots of Money!
They aren’t broke, the only think broke about the Mets is thier Front Office and the Attendance figures!
All of which could be solved if the SPENT money not cut more stars off the payroll!
real estate developers don’t normally invest lots and lots of their own money in a project. They borrow it.
Stick will anyone lend you money if your broke?
Hi Metsie,
Know this is a simplistic way of looking at it but I go by the old adage “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”. If it was just a reduction of gate attendance, there would be other ways within the Sterling Equities empire to absorb it. The Mets are too lucrative a money making generator in television and merchandising and the dependence on the team to bring in all this external revenue would be reason enough for them to take every measure possible to not let the product itself sink and turn off fan interest. They would never let a Sandy Alderson-type run this team into ruin, rather, they would depend upon a Sandy Alderson-type to prevent them from facing total ruin themselves in terms of their ability to retain ownership.
There has to be retraction on many of their other holdings as well in order to have allowed this to occur and to even have considered hiring Sandy Alderson as the man who could do it. Of course, that information is confidential but again, where there is smoke there is fire.
I haven’t found any documentation that confirms or denies that last season’s $70 million loss came after the inclusion of, for example, revenue made from the selling of television rights to SNY, merchandising, the expensive restaurants, etc. In any event, it is of my thought that keeping the Mets viable as a winning franchise on the field is essential for them to generate so much of the income their other sources bring in – though independent as far as the books are concerned – that they would not downsize and practice economic retraction simply because the Mets as an individual entity showed a loss of $70 million on the books.
They are trying to weather the bad times for better economic days ahead and I don’t know if they are indeed fighting a losing battle as far as retaining ownership is concerned because their moves are hurting their related holdings directly and indirectly dependent upon the health of the New York Met franchise itself.
Metsie, know you run circles around me with your understanding of the business world but if attendance and concession sales were the main sources of revenue to keep the Mets viable I could see these drastic moves being made (unwise, but explainable) but considering all the multiple holdings Sterling Equities has that are dependent upon the Mets, I just can’t see the measures being taken due to just that. I suspect there are now Sandy Aldersons within other corporations under the Sterling Equities umbrella as well. Can’t prove it, but again, where there is smoke…..
Ciao,
Joe
But there will never be a time when Sandy goes to Fred and says something about wanting to sign somebody for $90 million over six years. Not only is that not Sandy’s style, but if he did I can imagine Fred saying to him “that’s not what we hired you to do!”.
Yes sometimes where there is smoke there is fire….
But if there is fire usually there is a fire starter!
Yes they had financial issues. And people who aren’t rich think if you take a loan it’sbecause you have no money.
But you can’t get a loan if you don’t have any money!
People just kept looking for the things that Wilpon’s may owe people. But never once did they bother to look at what the assets they had were.
The loans on the stadium are held against the stadium not the Wilpon’s bank account.
The Loans on SNY are chump change in comparison as they probably lost more money last year on the team they they had to borrow to start SNY considering they have big money partners like Time Warner and Comcast as partners.
The Loans they took from the MLB have already been paid off and they still have more shares of the team to sell if they needed to.
And we haven’t even touched what the sale of one of thier commercial properties would get them if they decided to sell just ONE!
While the real estate market is down the overhead on it is not much more than the property taxes they pay each year!
So really if all you look for is smoke your going to find smoke!
They haven’t actually found any fire yet and never bothered to look at the hose full of assetes that could put out all the fires if they needed to!
Hi Metsie,
You are of course correct to point out that taking out loans is a standard business practice and loans are not only taken out but given out by the financial institutions in the belief by both parties that they will be able to pay it back from the success of those investments.
But those earlier loans were to buy out Doubleday, to help partially finance a new stadium and to create SNY.
Those were different in nature of the two loans needed just to meet operational expenses for the month which, as the attached article suggests, is indicative of a cash flow problem than expanding the business.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/sports/baseball/mets-struggling-for-cash-receive-40-million-bank-loan.html
The sources of revenue to pay off those loans, IMHO, never materialized in the manner in which they were expected to.
And what makes me believe their is more actual fire than there is looking for it was what Sandy Alderson said upon news of that $40 million bridge loan becoming public. From Adam Rubin:
“Mets general manager Sandy Alderson said last week that the organization lost $70 million this year.
“On Wednesday, Alderson said he was unaware of ownership seeking the newest $40 million loan until it came to his attention this week.
“I wasn’t even aware of the loan until yesterday, so it couldn’t have had any impact on what I’ve done,” Alderson said. “On the other hand, I’m not surprised. With losses that we sustained last year, they have to be funded somehow — and that’s either with cash or debt. I think a bridge loan makes perfect sense given the investments that are expected to close in January.”
The general manager, in charge of running the entire organization for his bosses, was unaware they even applied for a $40 million bridge loan until the day it was announced?
Sandy implying that he was out of the loop? That, I can’t believe but if I’m wrong, then who knows how much more fire there is that Sandy only sees smoke and is out of the loop of?
Joey do you know how much it cost the Wilpons to buy out Doubleday?
A little over 130 Million….About the price of a year’s worth of Payroll!
Even if they took a loan that loan has long been paid off in spades!
The revenues that you deem haven’t materialized haven’t because no one is going to see the team, and using the stadium (namely attendance) and the SNY business has turned a profit two years before it was supposed to!
So your really not talking about more than 250M worth of loans they may have taken that have probably both been paid back on SNY and Doubleday and the only truly outstanding debt payment is in regards to the Stadium which is Real Estate and can be sold at anytime without losing the Mets!
They could even sell shares of the stadium the way they sold shares of the Team if they wanted to to pay back the loans and even if they defaulted would still make the majority of money to be made there because the Mets get all the money from concessions anyway not the stadium!
Hi Metsie,
It just doesn’t seem feasible for a team to be in such financial trouble that it twice needed loans to just to meet it’s monthly operating expenses not with television and merchandising being the money makers that they are today. Putting aside the SNY aspect, selling the rights to SNY alone was a gigantic money maker. And as noted in the past, the Sterling Equities portion of the profits turned in from SNY was still much more than the $70 million they lost with the Mets – and without the Mets, SNY would not be the money maker it is.
It also doesn’t seem feasible for a Bud Selig to urge a non-interested Sandy Alderson into such position if there wasn’t reason.
Know you understand these things much more as a professional than I do as a layman it again doesn’t seem feasible that the Wilpons would do a 180 degree turn about.
Did it need those loans Joey?
Or was it that they had thier own money in other investments and took advantage of the lowest interest rates this country has ever had in it’s history?
Just because you take a loan doesnt mean you need to!
Hi Metsie,
One point we both forgot – the bringing in of CRG, a financial advisory firm involved in corporate restructuring and helping companies who have sought bankruptcy protection.
Something’s cooking and I don’t mean wabbit stew.
Did they file for bankruptcy?
Nuff Said?
They were hired to advise on the Mets…Not WIlpon’s personal Fortune!
Hi Metsie,
At least our differences shows we are not in cahoots with each other as some have accused us of, right?
Actually, why do you think the search committee recommended that the Wilpons hire Sandy Alderson? As I’ve mentioned, I cannot believe Fred and Jeff just took a 180 degree turn in their business philosophy. Also, since Sandy left Oakland he has not stated (nor has it been reported) than any other teams were interested in his services as G.M. and that he was happy doing what he was doing in the Commissioner’s office and content to stay there, it’s more an odd couple than Oscar and Felix and more of a puzzlement that Yul Breyner ever faced.
Did hey recommend it or did Selig?
And even if they did…they hired him to fix the TEAM finances not the Wilpons…
Do you own any stock?
If you owned Verizon Stock and they lost money would they come to you and ask you to empty out your bank account to pay the bills?
You guys have to start realizing that owning something doesn’t mean you have to pay the bills of that business out of your own pocket!
If the business doesn’t cover the bills you COULD but in most cases what happens is the business takes a loan and hopes it makes money to pay it off.
And in this case they sold shares of stock to pay those bills.
Just as any other company would.
Doesn’t mean all the people who have shares are broke!
http://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/ricketts_interested_in_sandy_alderson/534288
Cubs were interested in Alderson.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/487824-sandy-alderson-exactly-what-tom-ricketts-needs-to-help-evaluate-chicago-cubs
http://www.dmick89.com/cubs/?p=900&fb_source=message
According to MLBTradeRumors.com, Sandy Alderson “asked and received permission from Bud Selig to interview with the Mets for the GM vacancy next Thursday or Friday, and The New York Post’s Joel Sherman says that’s an indication that Alderson wants the job badly.
That doesn’t sound like Alderson was appointed the job by MLB/ Selig. Sounded like he wanted the job.
I don’t think you read what he was saying…Not that Sandy was forced or appointed by anyone…
But it could be that Selig put pressure on Wilpon to hire him that is perfectly reasonable considering he had gone out of his way to loan the team money from his own discretionary account.
The pressure was never on Alderson but it might have been on Wilpon.
No I know. That was just for Joey who’s said on a few occasions that Alderson didn’t really want the job and that no other teams had interest in him since he left Oakland.
Hi Fonzie:
- “OK, fine, let him go and generally manage the Mets. Meanwhile, why hasn’t Cubs owner Tom Ricketts inquired about a guy like Alderson to help him evaluate Jim Hendry and the club since he admits he is not a baseball guy?
A writer’s editorial question is not the Cubs showing interest in Sandy Alderson. Neither is one reporting a circulating rumor:
- “I’d meant to touch on this sooner, but hadn’t gotten around to it. You may recall several days ago that it was reported that a rumor making the rounds was that Ricketts would like to hire Sandy Alderson when he becomes the team’s owner. ”
And these are Sandy’s own words about how strong his desire was to become Mets General Manager:
- “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
Those are Sandy’s words, not mine or a third person’s. Article attached.
BY PETER BOTTE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Wednesday, February 02, 2011
Sandy Alderson had said Monday that he’s had no second thoughts about taking the Mets GM job in the fall. But he conceded Tuesday night that without baseball commissioner Bud Selig’s urging, he probably wouldn’t have even applied for the position or left his previous job with MLB cleaning up its Dominican operation.
“Probably not and the reason was I was already working,” Alderson said during an appearance to benefit the Fans for the Cure prostate cancer charity in Manhattan. “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
“No I know. That was just for Joey who’s said on a few occasions that Alderson didn’t really want the job and that no other teams had interest in him since he left Oakland.”
Hi Fonzie:
1) These are Sandy’s own words about how strong his desire was to become Mets General Manager:
- “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
Those are Sandy’s words, not mine or a third person’s. Article at tthe bottom
2) A writer’s editorial suggesting the Cubs pursue Sandy Alderson is not the same as the Cubs pursuing him:
- “OK, fine, let him go and generally manage the Mets. Meanwhile, why hasn’t Cubs owner Tom Ricketts inquired about a guy like Alderson to help him evaluate Jim Hendry and the club since he admits he is not a baseball guy?
Neither is one reporting a circulating rumor::
- “I’d meant to touch on this sooner, but hadn’t gotten around to it. You may recall several days ago that it was reported that a rumor making the rounds was that Ricketts would like to hire Sandy Alderson when he becomes the team’s owner. ”
——
BY PETER BOTTE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Wednesday, February 02, 2011
Sandy Alderson had said Monday that he’s had no second thoughts about taking the Mets GM job in the fall. But he conceded Tuesday night that without baseball commissioner Bud Selig’s urging, he probably wouldn’t have even applied for the position or left his previous job with MLB cleaning up its Dominican operation.
“Probably not and the reason was I was already working,” Alderson said during an appearance to benefit the Fans for the Cure prostate cancer charity in Manhattan. “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
I’m not suggesting Selig urged him to consider the job. I just don’t believe he didn’t want the job.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/padres/2005-08-23-alderson-cover_x.htm
“He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to work in New York.”
But last winter when Moores came calling, he was ready.
Alderson missed the rhythm of a season at the club level, the “emotional day-to-day winning and losing. This came up with a great owner, a great location, a new park and a team that has some positives. It was really a no-brainer
Hi Fonzie,
1) “I’m not suggesting Selig urged him to consider the job. I just don’t believe he didn’t want the job.”
You might not be suggesting it but Sandy is certain confirming it by stating 1) about urging: “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, and 2) about wanting it: “I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
2) And from your own attachment the owner of the A’s says Sandy Alderson did not just step in the general manager’s role and begin making player personnel decisions as you asserted but “relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.” None of us disagree with you about his use of saber metrics but as to when he began taking charge of it, which we can see was not immediate in 1982. Sandy’s own words “The way I began was keeping my mouth shut.” It was over time that he began using statistics for moves made on the major league level and running the farm system.
We can dispute the time when he began his own decision making but it certainly wasn’t when he first became the General Manager – by his own words and that of Haas.
The full quote from your attachment:
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
“At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old school ways.
“Alderson kept a low profile initially.
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” he says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage, and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.”
Hi Joey D. — Wallace Matthews is not a credible source for information. Here is an opinion of him that borders on being too kind:
WALLACE MATHEWS, IDIOT SAVANT or JUST IDIOT?
Wallace Matthews is a pretty accomplished figure in sports. He was an amateur boxer in his previous life and competed in the 1977 Golden Gloves Tournament and has extensively covered boxing for a while including providing coverage for ESPN, Showtime, SportsChannel, and NBC during the 1988 Seoul Games. However, when it comes to baseball Wallace may be able to put his words together much better than me and speak more eloquently, but he is an unabated jerkoff. It baffles me why he gets paid to write clearly biased articles that are borderline nonsensical.
http://themetropolitans.blogspot.com/2006/10/wallace-matthews-idiot-savant-or-just_25.html
Personally I have read many of Matthews’ columns and comments over the last 10-20 years, and I think he is a big time whiner and class warfare drone. He never seems satisfied with the status quo and finds targets to spew his jaundiced rhetoric. If a reader can see through the tears that Wallace seeks to induce, he’ll find many of the columns are based on poor information and biased reporting.
Hi Des,
Not familiar with Matthews but did see the opening remark about him made in that attachment that confirms your own assessment. From my own experience and that of others I’ve spoken to, however, in might be the only time for many in which Matthews might have made sense for it does reflect many a fan’s feelings about where Citi Field was geared to.
We weren’t alone in our fears of being outpriced.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2009/03/3571_mets_ticket_pri.html
And we know Dave Howard has given us BS before and that a 72 win season in 2009 was more the cause to lower ticket prices than this explanation of his:
“The Mets are sensitive to the economic realities facing our fans and we have lowered our ticket prices in response to these challenging conditions…, This move underscores our appreciation of our fans’ ongoing loyalty and support. We are committed to delivering exceptional service and value to our customers at Citi Field in 2010.”
What is also of most interest is that except for the three years leading to the end of Shea Stadium, the Mets never drew what they did in 2009 – the first year of Citi Field’s existence. Even the great years of 1999 and 2000 didn’t draw as many. Which makes me wonder what they were thinking with a smaller capacity park and much more expensive tickets and more luxury suites -the planning for the new park was done before they were averaging more than 40,000 a game those last three seasons at Shea so how did they think they could get away with it?
http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/nycdata/sports/nymets-attendance.htm
Hi Joey D. — I made an analysis of all the major league ballparks.
The capacity total of all AL parks is 605,848 seats. The fourteen teams have an average capacity of 43,275 seats.
The capacity total of all NL parks is 705,741 seats. The sixteen teams have an average capacity of 44,109 seats.
Taking a look at median ordering, the Mets CitiField has less capacity than11 NL clubs, and more than 4 other teams. Relative to the AL, seven teams there have more capacity the Mets, seven less than the Mets.
I didn’t consider the seating price points of the various clubs since that is ultimately determined by the local markets of the teams and is changeable.
Does that include the additional seats created by the moving in of the fences and newly available seating areas?
Just Curious….
Hi Des,
Thanks for the research.
With smaller ballparks today, it’s the percentage of capacity filled more than the total attendance which has to be considered. In the case of Citi Field, it was definately a case of charging much less much, more more to get in.
Hey Fonzie,
I don’t ever recall Angel Pagan missing first on a double. And he didn’t even argue the play!
Really, so did you miss the other hundreds of base running gaffs Pagan did too? Stop with the Pagan/Torres argument. Torres didn’t work out, but you make it sound like Pagan was a HOFer that was dumped for the sake of it – he was HORRIBLE too!
We can dispute the time when he began his own decision making but it certainly wasn’t when he first became the General Manager – by his own words and that of Haas.
Right he initially began and relied on others who had been around the game longer but what you left out when you copy and pasted all those quotes was “Using Baseball analyst Bill James statistical formulas he drafted Mark McGwire and Jason Giambi based on power and on base potential. McGwire was drafted in 1984, one year after he became GM.
He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old school ways.
Alderson kept a low profile initially.
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” he says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage, and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.
Using baseball analyst Bill James’ statistical formulas, Alderson drafted Mark McGwire based on his power potential and Jason Giambi based on his on-base percentage.
You have stated a few times that he wasn’t sought after since his Oakland days and there was a quote in that attachment that said he was,
He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to work in New York.
But last winter when Moores came calling, he was.
He arrived in Manhattan in 1998. Also GM’s don’t hand in resumes when a position is open. They are asked by clubs to be interviewed. Selig may have urged him but if he didn’t want to be the GM he wouldn’t have been a GM again. Selig couldn’t have forced him.
Hi Fonzie,
1) I was tempted to paste that to to bring out a point about how inaccurate reporting can be but since you raised the subject…. Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction, indicating that the author of that article, along with the fellow who quoted him (LOL) were unaware that even Bill James has yet to find value in stats in regards to raw talent. From an ESPN web chat he had long after those Oakland draft picks that came when Sandy was the A’s GM:
The question was:
“It was your analysis 20 years ago that demonstrated that minor league statistics are actually useful as a predictor of major league performance. Have you looked at interpreting college statistics, or is there too much noise there? Lewis mentions in Moneyball that the A’s are putting a lot of emphasis on college stats, though it’s not clear whether they are just eyeballing raw numbers or trying to do some sort of translation.:
The answer was:
“Bill James (4:23 PM)
Well, there is a tremendous amount of noise in the data, and it is not clear to me that we can filter it all out and get useful data. But its not clear that we CAN’T, either; we just don’t know.”
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/3503
Note: just because he said it wasn’t clear that it couldn’t be done means he has no definitive answer.
2) I didn’t bother pasting that portion of the article you quoted was that it didn’t refer to clubs seeking him in terms of player personnel but in an executive capacity and when he accepted the offer from the Padres it was to be their Chief Executive Officer. Even you have quoted many times who made the player decisions in San Diego during that time frame and it wasn’t Sandy.
Sorry, but the evidence presented in itself makes for an opposite case.
Um excuse me but when did I say Bill James was behind those draft picks? I said just as clearly as the article stated that he used Bill James statistical formulas to make those picks, it didn’t say he used Bill james himself to make the picks for him. This is why you get in trouble with word twisting to fit your agenda.
Bill James gave no definitive answer but Oakland and other teams believe they’re useful enought so all your doing is what you always do, look for ways to get around the fact that Sandy did what you won’t let yourself believe he did. Do you even know which statistics were the ones used? I’m betting you don’t.
I noticed once I showed you multiple articles stating that Bill Rigney was in fact a consultant that you have laid off the subject. Now you think you’ve found some truth to your conjecture but it’s not there.
He still chose McGwire over Shane Mack and Odibe McDowell of the 3 players his scouts presented to him in the first round of the 84 draft. He chose power statistics over speed and athleticism of the other 2.
He hired Eric Walker when he became the GM in Oakland who was a disciple of Bill James,
“I briefly wrote about the quick changes the A’s made as a direct result of Sandy Alderson being influenced by Eric Walker’s advice over a year ago.”
”
In June of 1984, Mark McGwire was selected 10th overall ahead of two standouts like Shane Mack and Oddibe McDowell. McGwire was taken for his ability to hit for serious power and take his walks. Soon the A’s let Dave Kingman go because he couldn’t get on base despite hitting a lot of home runs. They signed Reggie Jackson to replace him. They got rid of Alfredo Griffin and replaced him with a young SS who had shown the ability to get on base in the minors, Walt Weis who won the Rookie of the Year the following season. Later they traded for Rickey Henderson and Ken Phelps, both of whom are OBP machines with power”
I’ve posted this before but you obviously just chose to ignore.
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
Because he arrived so late in the scouting calendar, Alderson won’t be directly involved in this draft, which takes place June 7-8. In a roundabout way, however, his fingerprints will be on the Padres’ first-round pick —— 18th overall this year —— and all selections thereafter
“He was hotly pursued to return to the club level almost from the day he arrived in Manhattan. Alderson entertained “several opportunities” but pursued none, mostly because of the five-year commitment he made to New York.”
It says hotly persued to return to the club level but there you are speculating that it was as an executive with no real knowledge as to what position teams had persued him for. And in case you weren’t aware GM’s are also executives. You asked a question weeks ago if any other teams were ever interested in him and I just showed you a link saying he was hotly persued and now you’re speculating the positions that he was offered. Hilarious!
Kevin Towers was the GM of SD while Sandy was his boss. Kevin made his decisions based on the philosophy Alderson implemented which means he’s still involved in personnel decisions which Kevin Towers has praised him for. As he was in Oakland after he handed the GM duties to Beane and stayed on as President.
I think you need to research what exactly goes on in baseball front offices, you’re clearly lost in this matter mostly because you have an agenda. I already posted a link when Sandy was hired and posted an article with Kevin Towers praising Alderson for his input in SD.
I don’t know what is sadder….
That you are still having this conversation over who made the 89 A’s a WS winner or that one side is touting the smartness of drafting a player who for all intents and purposes you didn’t need ANY stats or smarts to pick as he could have picked just about ANYONE in the draft, Pumped him up with the massive amounts of steroids that McGwire had and gotten the same result!
Bill James was not the reason the 89 A’s won a World Series!
MEDICAL SCIENCE was the reason they won!
Most notably BIO CHEMISTRY won it for them and made great picks out of what is likely not much of anything without the juice!
If they were really good why did they feel the need to Juice up at all?
You would have to ask Joey why the 89 A’s are always brought up, the initially it started with the Mets hiring of Alderson and if any other teams were ever interested in his services and then he once again went back to the 80′s A’s. I have no idea why he keeps harping on it.
Why did any of the players specifically the established stars feel the need to take steroids? Canseco, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Pettite Sheffield, Dykstra, Sosa, Palmeiro, Glaus, Giambi, the list goes on and on.
Actually no! Your lying there! The one who brought this entire 89 A’s into the discussion was you when we said “Moneyball has NEVER WORKED and Sandy has never SPENT anywhere he has been”.
Not us!
Now your using that team to pump up how smart a baseball guy he is/was when the truth of the matter is he could have used any statistical analysis even go by the color of thier hair, picked any player and had the same success if he just pumped whoever he got with as much juice as McGwire had!
Was he really SMART for drafting McGwire?
Was it the statistical analysis philosophy of Bill James that seperated him from the rest of the MLB?
Or was it all the streoids coursing through his veins that could have been pumped into anyone and make Sandy look smart?
If you want to use the 89 A’s to say he spent our reply is he had to they were all juiced up and getting big Arbitration awards!
If you want to use them to say he was smart and his system worked if you want to see it work again you have better call balco and have them make a delivery!
And just to be clear I’m not talking about you starting it in this thread I meant the staring the entire Soap Opera regarding the 89 A’s in general!
Probably because it’s the only winning team on Sandy’s resume and with all the other suck you guys need to cling to that!
But that team was a product of Steroids not good drafting, not good building philosophy it was the product of a can, bottle and needle nothing more!
I never uttered a word about moneyball wether it worked or not. I don’t discuss moneyball because it’s got nothing to do with the Mets. That’s about Billy Beane and Oakland. If we were working under that philosophy we wouldn’t be drafting HS kids. The moneyball A’s drafted college kids.
I’m also not the one who brought up Alderson never spending anywhere he’s been. That’s just you making something up that he didn’t. I showed proof that he did spend with Oakland and SD until ownership for both Oakland and SD forced him to slash.
Do you have any evidence that McGwire took steroids when he played at USC? He was a stick figure in college. I have never seen anything linking him to steroids until around 93. 94 was when all of a sudden his arms looked like tree trunks. 93 and 94 were mostly missed due to injury and then he came back and looked like the Hulk The only guy who admitted to using them before that was Jose Canseco.
I have never seen anything linking Dave Stewart, Strom Davis, Dave Parker, Terry Steinbach, Walt Weiss, Denis Eckersly, Gene Nelson, Rick Honeycutt, Rickey Henderson, Dave Henderson, Carney Lansford, Harold Baines, Tony Phillips, Bob Welch, Mike Moore, Mike Gallego, Ron Hassey, Jim Corsi, Eric Plunk Greg Cadaret or any guy before or after these guys linked to steroids until Giambi and Tejada came along around 96-97 to go with McGwire who was probably the one who got those two involved in that stuff. If you have anything with all of those guys linked to roids then please post it. I have never seen anything linking that group. Only Canseco from day one and McGwire later on. Then Tejada and the Giambi Bros.
“And just to be clear I’m not talking about you starting it in this thread I meant the staring the entire Soap Opera regarding the 89 A’s in general!”
Again you were the one who started this whole nonsense about the 89 A’s on March 22nd of this year. Making up stories about him not being the one making decisions until 1992 which I also debunked and Joey D is the one who keeps brining it up.
“Probably because it’s the only winning team on Sandy’s resume and with all the other suck you guys need to cling to that!”
For all that suck he finished up in Oakland 1268-1164 with 4 division titles 3 AL penants and a WS title. I hope We have that much suck eventually. I can’t recall us ever making it to the WS 3 straight years. Even if you factor his SD days 397-414 with 2 more division titles he’s still 87 games over 500 with 6 total division titles.
But that team was a product of Steroids not good drafting, not good building philosophy it was the product of a can, bottle and needle nothing more!
Show evidence that anybody other than Canseco was on Roids during the 88-90 run. McGwire was still rail thin until 93-94 and nobody else was linked to roids. The Yankees and Redsox had more guys connected with Roids in their title runs then the 80′s A’s.
Yeah I see your on the I didn’t say kick tonite…
NO ONE CLAIMED you said anything about Moneyball or Alderson never spending….
WE SAID THAT!
And then you brought up the 89 A’s in reply!
Are you clear now or do you have some other attempt at twist you want to try out on the site tonite?
Fonzie,
I said you stated Bill James made those picks for Oakland? That is utter nonsense.
You are not making a case for yourself inferring I said that. I don’t know how anybody could come to that conclusion based on this:
“Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction, indicating that the author of that article, along with the fellow who quoted him (LOL) were unaware that even Bill James has yet to find value in stats in regards to raw talent. From an ESPN web chat he had long after those Oakland draft picks that came when Sandy was the A’s GM”
I think everyone understood I was referring to Sandy Alderson both times I used the word “he” and to infer anything else is nothing more than taking completely words out of context.
And when I make a point about being unaware that he (i.e., “James”) had yet to find value in the stats of raw talent and to then continue the argument that Sandy made draft decisions based on his only means of reference – stats….. that too speaks for itself and a contradiction of words – he (Sandy Alderson) learned how to evaluate raw talent based on advanced statistics credited to Bill James who then said his stats at that point did not apply to evaluating raw talent.
I said you stated Bill James made those picks for Oakland? That is utter nonsense.
You are not making a case for yourself inferring I said that. I don’t know how anybody could come to that conclusion based on this
“Yes, he educated himself through Bill James but by then saying he was behind those draft picks it is a complete contradiction,”
But then SAYING he was behind those picks! That’s what it looks like you’re saying to me. But then SAYING HE WAS BEHIND THOSE PICKS it is a complete contradiction.
No one said he was behind those picks. What was said was his satistical formulas were used to decide those picks. It didn’t matter if Bill James thought they were quantifiable in the college ranks or not. The point is Alderson did as do a bunch of other teams. And teams today are still drafting by those formulas.
That link does absolutely nothing to make a case against the way Alderson and the A’s evaluated college talent. Bill James works for the Red Sox he does not evaluate college players. He evaluates MLB players which is why he could give no definitive answer. If you’d bother to read the link I gave you would hear scout Bill Gayton say exactly how they implemented statistical analysis into the draft.
And when I make a point about being unaware that he (i.e., “James”) had yet to find value in the stats of raw talent and to then continue the argument that Sandy made draft decisions based on his only means of reference – stats….. that too speaks for itself and a contradiction of words – he (Sandy Alderson) learned how to evaluate raw talent based on advanced statistics credited to Bill James who then said his stats at that point did not apply to evaluating raw talent.
No he did not say that his stats did not apply to evaluating raw talent and no one said that’s how they evaluate raw talent. The stats are used to determine which of the Raw talented players thay scout are chosen and who said the stats were HIS ONLY MEANS OF REFERENCE? The stats were used to determine which player they would select of the players their staff scouted. He didn’t learn to evaluate raw ralent, his scouts did. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble understanding this.
So you’re speculating that since Bill James doesn’t know for sure if his statistical analysis can be used in the college ranks that means MLB clubs can’t be using them. Again you’re speculating without evidence. Bill James doesn’t know either way because he doesn’t evaluate college statistics he evaluates MLB stats. All of these new breed executives are using these methods still today.
Hi Fonzie,
oh, the heck with it. Have a good night’s sleep and don’t think about that second inning in tonight’s game.
Joey
LMAO you too Joey!
No I know. That was just for Joey who’s said on a few occasions that Alderson didn’t really want the job and that no other teams had interest in him since he left Oakland.”
Hi Fonzie:
1) These are Sandy’s own words about how strong his desire was to become Mets General Manager:
- “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
Those are Sandy’s words, not mine or a third person’s. Article at tthe bottom
2) A writer’s editorial suggesting the Cubs pursue Sandy Alderson is not the same as the Cubs pursuing him:
- “OK, fine, let him go and generally manage the Mets. Meanwhile, why hasn’t Cubs owner Tom Ricketts inquired about a guy like Alderson to help him evaluate Jim Hendry and the club since he admits he is not a baseball guy?
Neither is one reporting a circulating rumor::
- “I’d meant to touch on this sooner, but hadn’t gotten around to it. You may recall several days ago that it was reported that a rumor making the rounds was that Ricketts would like to hire Sandy Alderson when he becomes the team’s owner. ”
——
BY PETER BOTTE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Wednesday, February 02, 2011
Sandy Alderson had said Monday that he’s had no second thoughts about taking the Mets GM job in the fall. But he conceded Tuesday night that without baseball commissioner Bud Selig’s urging, he probably wouldn’t have even applied for the position or left his previous job with MLB cleaning up its Dominican operation.
“Probably not and the reason was I was already working,” Alderson said during an appearance to benefit the Fans for the Cure prostate cancer charity in Manhattan. “Absent (Selig) asking to go ahead and pursue this and to some degree urging me to pursue it, I’d still be in Santo Domingo studying Spanish.”
**
“That was just for Joey who’s said on a few occasions that Alderson didn’t really want the job and that no other teams had interest in him since he left Oakland.”
Forgot to mention
1) I’ve attached Sandy’s quote before
2) It was again implied that I said something that was not true.