26
2012
Alderson Says Stuff… I Say Stuff Too…
An article by 
MetsBlog transcribed comments made by GM Sandy Alderson who appeared in the SNY broadcast booth during the fifth inning of last night’s game.
First lets read what he had to say, then some commentary.
“We’ve looked at pitches-per-plate appearance, from the first half and second half, and they’re down significantly in the second half. I think that sometimes has to do with a mix of personnel. If you go back and look at who we had in the lineup consistently over the last year and a half – because, really the buy-in (to our offensive approach) was over the last year and a half - and when you don’t approach it that way, it can have an effect on the overall approach (of the team). That’s not an indictment of anybody, but there are certain players we’ve had playing over the last two or three months that don’t reflect our approach as well as others. … We didn’t hit with men in scoring position with two outs, and a lot of other things in the second half. But, it really underscored some of the things we need to do. For example, power-wise, if you look at the last four games we’ve won, we’ve out-homered the opposition in every one of those games. We cannot win consistently at the Major League level if we don’t have some measure of power. We haven’t had as much as we need.”
It looks like Alderson is blaming the poor results in the second half on not following through on his philosophy of taking pitches. If you’re looking at Pitches-Per-Plate-Appearance (PPPA) between the two halves to conclude what the problem is, I have to admit that scares me a little.
You see, the way I looked at it was that this team was long on luck and short on talent in the first half. All those two-out runs that carried this team in the first half were unsustainable and simply not a result of a slightly higher PPPA. It was random.
This is a bad offensive team. When Kirk Nieuwenhuis first came up and provided a nice jolt of enthusiasm and offense it was unexpected and very welcome. But as soon as the book was out on him the party was over and he was sent packing to Triple-A. Lucas Duda’s early performance also skewed the results and soon he ended up in Buffalo too. This is simply a bad offensive ballclub that is in need of some very productive major league players. You don’t need PPPA to tell you that.
Moving on… As for how Alderson plans to improve the roster, he said:
“Without naming names, we’re looking at defensive metrics, we’re looking at offensive metrics. What kind of offense we have to get from player A in order to justify playing time if the defensive metrics aren’t there? Is somebody more valuable to another team at another position than he is for us? What is coming through our system, and what is available in the free-agent market? What talent do we have at certain positions that we might be willing to trade, so to shore up at other positions? It’s a complicated process, but I think something every team goes through. We’re doing that currently, trying to assess exactly what we have and try to be in a position – not to move quickly – but be confident in the direction we take over the next six to eight weeks.”
Don’t be bashful Sandy. We already know the names… Lets begin with Josh Thole… Lets throw in Lucas Duda… Lets not forget Daniel Murphy… Are any of those players making up for their defensive deficiencies with their bats? Are their prowess at the plate enough to ignore the fact that they are each ranked last at their positions in most fielding measures?
Speak English to your fans… You’d be surprised at how they are already five steps ahead of you and have been pointing this out all year long on MMO.
As far as whether any Met position player is more valuable to another team at another position, are you simply suggesting that Murphy and Duda could help an American League team as Designated Hitters? It’s not really a position, but I’m pretty sure that’s what you’re probably suggesting. I know you’re not thinking Duda can play first base for some team who all saw how bad he looked in your little showcase that kind of backfired on you. Anyway, yes… bravo… let’s do that. I’m behind you if that’s what you were trying to say.
You asked a good question.
What talent do we have at certain positions that we might be willing to trade, so to shore up at other positions?
What are you saying?
David Wright comes to mind. So does Ike Davis.
Those are the only two position players that have any trade value that could shore up other positions.
Are you giving us a preview of things that are to come?
I sure hope not, because aside from those two I don’t see any position player that has enough value to shore up either outfield position, second base, or the catching spot. Maybe Ruben Tejada, but somehow I’m sure you’ll keep him because of his $450K price tag.
I hope you’re not considering moving one of our top two run producers… Please perish the thought… The trick is to get more productive players like them. Remember what I said at the beginning of this post on how we needed more productive players and not less?
I did agree with one thing you said…
“It’s a complicated process.”
Yes, it certainly is and I only hope you’re up for the challenge this offseason.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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You can’t look at the PPPA to judge if they approached thigs differently in the two halves.
It’s the wrong metric to use for that! It’s not totally a batter dependent stat.
It could be different because of what the Pitcher did not what the batter did!
It could have been high because the pitchers didn’t throw early strikes in the first half (Actually thats true thats why the patience worked in the 1st half) but then they got wise to the fact if you just throw it in there you can quickly get ahead in the count because they know the batter is going to take it in some vain attempt at taking you deep into the count!
So in the second half what did they do? Threw strikes early and often and we took them!
Wound up in Pitcher counts and then had to swing defensively and not aggressively!
A classic case of someone thinking aMetric os good for something but not actually good at telling you what you thought it was good at!
I still have to wonder why he agrees to go on the air when for the most part he just avoids the questions with proccess mumbo jumbo and no real conclusions or answer to the actual question.
And I thought it was quite Odd that after the whole Ike Rumor fiasco that he has not talked to Ike about it even admitting some people attributed the quotes to him (he tried to say wrongly in his usual roundabout way) and with all that he couldn’t walk over to the guy and say don’t pay attention to that crap it didn’t come from us?
Maybe it did!
Mayber he is one of those guy mentioned that would be more valuable to someone else who has an offensive metric that doesn’t justify his glove blah blah blah…
So sick of even listening to this guy cause it’s clear this team’s best move this offseason would be to get rid of him before he does anymore damage!
With all due respect to you Metsie, I think your explanation is a total over simplification. I agree that Alderson talks in circles and is a master at speaking much without really saying anything, but to think that PPPA isn’t an important stat is crazy. Yes, we could both name several examples of great hitters that just “Grip it and Rip it” but in the long haul (and especially with younger and developing players) working the count certainly works in both the batter and the teams overall favor. I mean the Yankees of the late 90′s were absolute masters at it. That is not to say that Lucas Duda’s approach of just resting the bat on his shoulders while FAT fastballs whiz by early in the count is the correct way. The approach that I think (I admit I don’t know the man or have any inside info.) Hudgens is preaching is to work the pitcher. Not just take pitches to take them. Guys should absolutely let it rip if the first pitch is a fat middle in offering. Duda’s issues were not him following or not following instructions but more the fact that I think he was a bit over matched and that’s why they sent him down. Honestly, I like the fact that there is a organizational approach being taught. HoJo is one of my All-Time Favorite Mets, but I thought he was an absolute BRUTAL hitting instructor. What philosophy did he impart? At least now there is an overall approach that was proven successful in the past.
As for dealing with Ike, I don’t think Alderson or the Mets for that matter owe him anything! He is well paid, the Mets have been patient with him (even in dealling with his injury). Maybe I’m a little too “Old School when it comes to these things but player interaction with the FO is not a good thing and unfortunately it happens entirely too much these days, IMO.
Sloatsburg perhaps you misread what I was getting at….
The metric isn’t the problem here it’s a fine metric meant to show how deep you go into counts.
But going deep into counts is not indicative of the approach applied to the PA at all!
You can be as patient as a clam and if the Pitcher throws three strikes at you your never going to get further than Pitch 3 unless you foul one off or get a hit!
Thats the key point here!
In the first half we were patient at the plate almost to a fault!
But it worked because the Pitchers didn’t pound the zone early against us and by the time they started we were already in a hitters count!
In the second half they did pound the zone to take advantage of the passivity approach and it worked, now instead of being in hitters counts for most of the PA we were in Pitcher counts which puts the pitcher at an advantage and hurts the offense because now your defensive and protecting the plate instead of looking for a good pitch to hit!
the PPPA went down but not because the batting approach changed but because the Pitching approach changed!
Everyone caught onto the fact if you throw a first pitch strike you got a good chance of throwing the batter into a pitchers count for the rest of the PA!
Alot of reading between the lines Joe…It definitely sounds like He’s speaking about Duda and Murph and Thole specifically…Here’s a novel idea, instead of pouring over statistical reasons, look at the journeyman you acquired and expected to man CF, (for a guy who had an off year in ’11 and had extra motivation coming into his FA walk year and who had a history of being much better offensively and with speed) the LF who apparently lost his ability to hit ala Steve Blass losing his ability to throw strikes, and a RF who was a rookie, had a good offensive 2nd half in ’11, was playing out of position defensively, whom you and your management team ‘gave’ the RF job to coming into ST…A young catcher (converted) whom you knew would be lucky to hit 4 or 5 HR, because that’s just not his game offensively…Round pegs square holes…rebuilding a bullpen and overspending to do so…(Jon Broxton… anyone) They say hindsight is 20/20, but none of us get paid like SA and his ‘team’ and i read many comments and articles last year during Sandy’s ‘good day’ questioning those moves even before the season started…
This narrative, still being written by this FO is like Groundhog Day when it comes to the bullpen, excepting their version is a horror film, not a comedy…
Alderson’s act is wearing thin…
Regarding the CF trade, when it went down it really looked like The Mets got the better end of that deal. Ramirez was a solid reliever and Torres was a sppedster who played great D and was a solid contributor to the SFG championship team. I work for a Napa, CA based company and spend a good amount of time out there and EVERYONE I spoke to out there HATED this trade! THey all liked Ramirez (and we all talk about how relievers are so hot and cold from year to year so it may be worth a shot to at least give him a shot in the spring.) And Torres was absolutely loved by the fans and teammates alike. I like Pegan but he was absolutely maddening at times and you want to talk about a player that runs hot and cold from year to year check out Pegan.
I thought this was a decent trade at the time. Sometimes, for some unknown reason these things don’t work out. Other times certain players are better after the first year with the new team. I’m not in ANY WAY suggesting that we should bring them both back (although I wouldn’t mind giving Ramirez another limited shot). I’m just stating the true sentiment that was shared by many when this trade went down.
Well, they HATED the trade in SF and somehow Sandy had a good day here in NY. then, Reality set it, Pagan went to norm and so did Torres. in 8 years the guy has had ONE good season, and i am not sure what you mean by speedster??? He’s stolen more than 20 bases once!!!
So you do recall many thinking the Mets got the better of theat deal? Honestly, I liked Pegan but his flightiness and repeated brain farts drove me nuts. That said, there’s no dennying he’s a better player than Torres but still no world beater.
Yes Sloat but the MOST were the same guys who think Sandy has not made a mistake since he got here too!
There was a small minority of posters here who scratched thier heads over trading a .270 hitter for a guy who hit .240 and a guy who at BEST would pitch just an inning a game…
We were all called HATERS for criticizing Sandy when we should have been hailed for being smart and predicting just how bad that trade was the day it was made!
I don’t know how anyone could get Thole out of what he said….
The Offense is not enough to excuse the defense maybe but then again he neither when it comes right down to it!
I mean everyone knew we needed a catcher as far back as the Omar days!
Thats two years ago already and the only thing you can say in Sandy’s defense of inaction is that there really wasn’t anyone worth getting to replace him!
Hi Joe,
Surprised you forgot to mention Sandy’s take on why Jose Reyes wasn’t traded last summer. He said he it was the right decision if there was even a slight chance of re-signing Jose.
As we know, he never once sat down with Jose’s agent and tried to negotiate when he had exclusive rights and only had to compete against market value and not some nut job from Florida. He did not make an offer even for use as a starting point. He did not even give Jose the chance to reject an offer to show that the Mets were sincere and Jose wasn’t. Then he told Jose to shop around and then come back to discuss an offer and Sandy knows only too well that is not how it is done with one’s own player.
Jose wasn’t traded in the middle of the season only because it would have been financial suicide after the moves already made for then nobody would show up – though it seems not doing so at the time only delayed that anyway.
And it wasn’t that injuries took away from his trading power. An 80 percent Jose with the way he was hitting in 2011 would garner a top prospect from teams in the hunt and in need of a shortstop – even with him being a rental.
his injury absolutely, unequivically, trashed his trade value. Having a guy that is a speed player, with a history of leg issues, go down with a bad hammy right when the trade season was getting going, you don’t think that hurt his value?
he was on the DL with a bad hammy for most of the trade period, and when he came back in late july, it was obvious that he was still hurt. most people were commenting that they were holding their breath every time he ran to first.
No GM was giving up top talent for that, knowing that his leg was a ticking time bomb. And frankly, they were right, because he was a non-factor with the bat and on the bases until the last 2 weeks of the season.
Hey Joey, I didn’t forget it, I simply think that Reyes situation has been beaten to death and people will always choose to believe what they want anyway. Thanks for commenting.
Can you really rely on this guy with a bad back and not the best protection including an unbalanced lineup. Is he really a run producer ALL year, Lets throw out meaningless games when he has about 3 hrs. and 5 RBI’s
Per today’s NY times:
”’Last season, after battling a back injury, Wright was activated from the disabled list July 22 and batted .272 with a .789 on-base-plus-slugging percentage and 8 home runs through the last 63 games of the season. Since July 22 of this year, a stretch of 59 games, Wright has batted .246 with a .687 O.P.S. and six homers.
His sensational first-half performance has obscured his poorer numbers of late. Through the 82 games this season before the All-Star break, he hit .351 with a 1.004 O.P.S. and 11 home runs. Wright through 556 at-bats this year still has a .306 average and .884 O.P.S.
“Personally, it’s the law of averages,” Wright said. “It’s extremely difficult to hit .300 and it’s damn near impossible to hit near .350.”
Manager Terry Collins said he hoped Wright could finish above .300 and added that Wright proved his abilities and his stature in the organization. “What we saw those first three months was truly a statement of how good a player he can be and what he is and what he means to this team,” he said.
“What we saw those first three months was truly a statement of how good a player he can be”
Problem is he is NOT good for the entire season. He can at times for long strtches be very pedestrian in the NO.3 hole for two or 3 mos.
I too am tired of the Mets losing and unless we get players comparable to Delgado, Alou and Beltran then DW can’t help.
Joey you might say DW. Beltran and Ike with Reyes at the top. Its been since 2010 and DW sorry is not a superstar anymore and we are losing with him. DW is a nice piece for a contending team like the Brewers , Tigers , Giants, or may I dare say the Braves.
HotStreak, always nice when soemone else points this out about the guy, if i had brought up those numbers i hate the guy.. SMGDH.
As i have been saying, i am glad he had a bounced back season, his stock went up a bit, trade him now while his value is up, we cannot go into the next 5-6 season with this guy making $16+ million to be an OBP guy. he’s not a run producer and in one of his best year, he’s hit 20 HR and 85 RBI. imagine what he’ll become for us in the next 3 or 4 years?
Poor number in the second half, but after carrying the team in the first half, Wright could have used some help and didn’t get any. Isn’t he still one of the top run producers on the team with Ike? Who else is there after them two? We need to keep them unless Alderson is planning on signing Josh Hamilton.
Joe D not only is he one of the top run producers on the team, he’s thee top run producer on the team. He’s scored 26 more runs than the next highest run scorer in the team and is only a couple of RBI’s away from Ike. He’s produced 40 more runs than Ike and is still hitting 307 w RISP and 333 w 2out and RISP with 16 intentional walks with RISP and this knucklehead calls him an OBP guy.
What are we getting for him that is PROVEN? I love and understand the concept of prospects but Wright is a proven commodity and is top 5 3bmen in the league. He wants to stay (so he says), is great guy in the clubhouse, is BY FAR, the most marketable player on the team, and already owns or will soon own every major stat in team history. All that and he’s still relatively young and as I mentioned a very good producer. Realistically, how do you replace all of that? Anything less isn’t worth it. Personal feeling aside.
Sloatsburg, I will never understand how so many Mets fans choose to ignore how good Wright is and speak of him like there’s a thousand third basemen better than him out there.
This coming from a franchise that took 42 years and 200 (whatever the number is) third basemen before they finally found one they could stick with.
Joe D.
Great point and one that is very overlooked! 3b was an absolute blackhole for this franchise and it’s finally filled with an excellent home grown player and there are still some that can’t wait to see him leave. Crazy!!!
Joe D, too bad you must’ve missed how many 3rd Basemen were having good enough season to make us NOT worry about losing this guy and save $16+ million
Like who? You think that if teams that have top third baseman they are lining up just to give them to the Mets? Look at the free agent third basemen instead. At least that’s more realistic. Look at the free agents, read ‘em and weep.
Joe D.
Why would he do that? It would disprove his point. If he had one.
Alex gotta ask…As poor as Wrights numbers were in the 2nd Half…
Can you name a player that was actually better at the plate than him in that second half?
Ike Davis maybe in the HR dept but what about Average?
just giving you a little perspective to think about.
Ike davis has hit 255, Wright 253.. Just to give you heads up.. Also, Murphy and even tejada have a better BA
So you would be happy replacing Wright’s bat with one more like Murphy or Tejada?
Isn’t Wright the “Happy Balance” guy in between the Davis’ and the Murphy/Tejadas?
I just don’t see how you go from being upset about Reyes going and at the same time be pushing Wright out the door!
Both are great players in the grand scheme of things and so much talent has been banished by Sandy already I don’t see how you guys would want to make a case for Sandy to push even more out the door!
If it was a choice between Wright and Reyes I could see the argument and debate on which one was more valuable to keep, but Reyes is gone does it really make sense to get rid of both?
(Note at least we can debate this reasonably unlike others)
I respect what you say about Wright my contention is that maybe it’s a product of unmet expectations more than actual performance.
When you look to make up a list of who should go first from this roster Wright doesn’t even show up in the top 20 on my list….
Dickey, Harvey, Niese, Davis, Wright fill out the bottom 5 spots on MY list….
Cannot wait until his staff logs in and lectures you and belittles you about just how brilliant and ahead of his time his words were!
No they made a different post about the genius of Selig and Beane instead today!
This is a better assesement of what SA said last night in a good piece written by Rubin:
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/57757/alderson-on-wright-dickey-extensions-ike-etc
Listened to this assessment from SA when he was in the booth last night.
Certainly sounds like to me he’s more confident or more willing to work out an extension with Wright than it happening with Dickey.
Oh boy…..
I love when he said you build a team around speed and power, but they have neither! I almost fell over when he said that!
Did he just admit that he didn’t build the team correctly according to how he believes what a team should have to win?
Did anyone point out that he traded away our only power from last year…then let our best speed guy walk away in FA and then trade our next best speed guy last year? He let about 30HR’s (between the three) and over 60SB’s go without replacing them!
When Alderson first got here, he belittled speed and stolen bases. Now that Reyes and Pagan are gone he talks about speed. Lions, and Tigers, and Bears, oh my….
No he didn’t belittle speed. He said SBs are a footnote. And guess what: they are.
Speed is a physical attribute that manifests in more ways than just stolen bases. Especially for a center fielder. It is also a sign of over all physical ability.
So, saying speed is a footnote is not basically taking a shot at speed playerS? got it… funny, Irony is these A’s are anti-Moneyball club. .306 on-base % is 2nd-lowest in AL. And they’re tied for 3rd in AL in stolen bases. but hey, now it’s not about OBP, now it’s about low costing value right? If at first you don’t succeed, dust yourself off and try again right??? You guys make me sick!!!
“So, saying speed is a footnote is not basically taking a shot at speed playerS?”
He didn’t say speed is a footnote. He said stolen bases were. I said that very plainly.
Certainly sounds like to me he’s more confident or more willing to work out an extension with Wright than it happening with Dickey”
That’s easy, Dickey + CY young award = Big raise and he’s 37.
Wright + UnClutch + Back to Back disappearing acts in the second half = Salary may not be as high as it would’ve been in may
Alex
As usual a totally biased (and incorrect) assesment on your part. Look at Wright’s numbers lifetime. How can you say he’s unclutch? The guy is absolutely being asked to carry the team offensively. He has NO ONE ELSE in the lineup. The guy you think will compete for an MVP crown is batting 225 and has proven NOTHING in 3 years (I’m not saying I don’t like him because I feel Ike will be solid in time). Yet Wright will soon go down as the best Met position player ever. I love Dickey and hope he resigns but he’s a 37 YEAR OLD pitcher. I don’t care that he throws a knuckleball he still brings up to 80 and that requires significant effort and will in time breakdown your arm. I know Alderson has proven NOTHING so far but seriously what your suggesting is insane. Please put down the pipe and come back to earth.
“It looks like Alderson is blaming the poor results in the second half on not following through on his philosophy of taking pitches. If you’re looking at Pitches-Per-Plate-Appearance (PPPA) between the two halves to conclude what the problem is, I have to admit that scares me a little.”
And lack of power. He was pretty direct about that. You did post his comments in that regard. Not sure how you missed that.
Best part, or the only part i was interested in was ike davis… he said what we all kinda wanted to hear. you do not trade the only 30 HR guy in the lineup. you add guys around that guy, Ike will become a 40 120+ type player… I can only imagine him with reyes in the lineup.
Not really. Reyes was actually rarely driven in by the clean up spot. It happened, but not as frequently as you’d think.
I didnt miss it. I pointed out what I had a problem with. And because we need power I hope his plan is not to get rid of either of the Mets top power hitters Wright, Davis and even Hairston.
It’s sad, when I saw the interview all i could think of is “what kind of BS is he going to out out there”…
OK, I don’t have the time to really break this down, but I challenge someone to go to Fanghaphs.com…( http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=5&season=2012&month=4&season1=2012&ind=0&team=25,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0 )and investigate the change in approach from month to month.
Sandy was blaming the problems on new/different personal in the line up between hales as the cause in the drop of production.
My question is, what change are we talking about? Wright, Thole, Ike, Murphy, Torres and Hairston have been there everyday…Tejada missed some time, but he’s been there almost all the time.
Are we talking about Duda? the guy you sent down in the 2nd half because he was struggling?
I seem to remember Nieuwenhuis being pretty aggressive, and losing one guy couldn’t have that big of an effect…
Maybe two weeks of Bay (they guy you rushed back from injury with no time in the minors) playing everyday screwed things up, but it was only two weeks so not sure that is the case.
Maybe letting Quintanilla go was the problem…
or losing Mike Baxter is the X factor?
I’m confused, I’m just not sure what big changes happened that could skew the numbers to change he numbers.
Hey, maybe it has to do with the huge downward trend in Wright because Wright stopped trying to hit line drives and went back to his wild uppercut swing because he was left alone in the lineup without any protection?
Or maybe it’s the huge slumping trend of Rubin Tejada? You know the guy who replaced one of the faces of the club before you let him walk away without even sending him a box of candy and is having another great and extremely constant season?
Or the fact the the team was so thin we relied on guys like Quintanilla, Thole, Nieuwenhuis, Johnson, Nickeas, Baxter and Valdespin who showed that they aren’t ready to make the adjustments to play in the bigs or good enough to hit MLB pitching at all?
Maybe it has to do with the team quitting because the FO quit on them and didn’t add any help to any area of the team at the most pivotal point in the season? But I forgot, you said you prefer a 2nd half slump…
And it’s frightening how much this guy is relying on looking at pieces of paper. It’s almost like my worst nightmare that this guy, who is a die-hard saber freak is running this club. I could not believe what i was hearing when he was in the pressbox talking about PPPA and giving so much relevance to that in relation to the many tangibles/intangibles it takes to win games and defensive metrics in relation to forcing what offensive players can play in what positions and all this garbage.
Nothing the man said gave me any indication of him actually being familiar with the players themselves. There is no way this organization can have any success when the people running it put numbers on sheets ahead of the actual players and running it like it was a fantasy rotisserie league. Not to mention he sucks the air out of a room anytime he makes an appearance.
I went and made some popcorn when they said he was coming on in the 5th? I wanted to kick back and enjoy the show. He didn’t disappoint. More lawyer speak only this time it was easier to read between the lines than usual. All in all, sounds like Wright and Dickey could be gone, and that Duda, Thole and Murphy will definitely not be playing OF, C, 2B for the Mets come opening day. But aside from Murphy I dont see much trade value there unless you bundle on or two of them up with Wright or Dickey.
OK, we can’t afford Wright and RAD…I’d say that Torres hasn’t fielded enough to justify his poor hitting, so he’s gone.
I’m not a Thole hater, but obviously he’s replaceable…but who wants him? and who can we find that’s better? We got no in house options and any FA’s are old and have problems.
Murph is a decent hitter, his D isn’t bad, but it’s not great. We trade him for what? and then who plays 2nd? Valdespin? really? he sucks an has an attitude problem. I know, Havens or Flores right? because they have proven to be ready to play 2nd everyday.
Trade Duda? sure…but who want’s 15HR first basemen with very little experience at first?
You either have to trade Wright and RAD and anyone else with value and tear it all down or actually try signing a FA with some value…if we don’t do that, they we are just spinning our wheels in quick sand.
Over on MLBTR (who have snippits from last night’s SA interview with GR0:
Alderson suggested rival teams won’t “put a lot of stock in” the report that the Mets are frustrated with Ike Davis’ attitude and lifestyle. The Mets dealt with the matter internally and are not looking to trade Davis, according to Alderson. “For us to trade a guy that’s hit 30 home runs, we better know where the next 30 are coming from,” he said.
Given Ike’s poor first half or so, I’m hoping it’s 30+ homers next season – as it certainly sounds like he’s not going anywhere.
I really don’t know why he went on last night. He didn’t really say anything. At 1st I thought it was to shed light on the Davis stuff but when they got to it he basically said it was something they’d handle internally and awkwardly mentioned how the concern is it may be perceived as coming from him. Which he is right on but the phrasing of it just seemed off.
Finally the pitches-per-plate appearance comments was a bit scary to hear. I am hoping that he just lost something in the translation but the idea that the offense simply didn’t take more pitches as being the problem was scary.
We had this argument before and I’m glad you finally do agree with me…
If your intention is to say nothing then WHY go on the air and agree to the interview in the first place?
And I would love to hear your take on his quote about handling the Ike thing internally just before he went onto say he has not spoken to Ike about it since that story broke….
How pray tell is this INTERNAL HANDLING being done?
” What kind of offense we have to get from player A in order to justify playing time if the defensive metrics aren’t there? Is somebody more valuable to another team at another position than he is for us? ”
Yeah I got the same thing. Duda and Murphy come to mind and their days may be numbered.
Oh Please Murphy has been playing a Stellar 2B and has gotten better in the 2nd half!
You guys just HOPE it’s Murphy because he is one of those guys you think is tradeable enough to get you more kids you can push everyone off for another 4 years of waiting for Sandy to succeed!
Wait – I could have sworn you are the guy who said we need to only use fielding percentage to measure defense. Wasn’t that you a week ago maybe? Wasn’t that you?
Of the 11 NL qualified 2B’s, Murphy has the lowest fielding percentage.
Stellar? Really?
You can swear all you want but thats not what I said at all….
What I said was the fielding metrics should be broken up into two one showing range and the other using FP to better define the two qualities as opposed to mashing them altogether into one all encompassing number that actually means NOTHING because it hides the range admist the actualy FP!
But you go on swearing to whatever you believe and any fact your little heart desires to make your fantasy fit reality!
It seems to be the only way you can function properly and still retain some self esteem!
I said it after Joe D and I had our crossfire thingy and I will say it again.
I cannot in good conscious compare the winters of 2010 and 2011 to the winter of 2012 just yet. I believe that when your company is in financial disarray and is involved in a massive lawsuit – it effects how things are handled from the top down.
I am going into the winter of 2012 with the following viewpoints
#1 Alderson has shown in recent interviews that this roster will be held more accountable, and that changes will occur.
#2 He’s revealed more of a plan of how he wants to build a successful team in recent interviews
#3 He’s revealed specific needs such as power, fixing the bullpen, need for better defense – things you’d have a tough time finding 2 years ago in interviews.
#4 If the 2013 roster looks like the 2012, I’ll be mad.
I am not gonna get all over the guy BEFORE he gets a chance to do what he says he wants to do. His toughest critics harp on 2010 and 2011 because they choose to ignore the big picture in my view.
Now it’s time to put up or shut up. Show me something. Show me why we were treading water for 2 years. I don’t need a flashy contract, I need results.
To me there’s no sense in being mad about his 2013 plans until you actually see them in action.
I’ve waited this long, I can wait another year.
Hi Joe,
Know that the Reyes situation had been beaten to death but only raised it because Sandy’s comments about it last night again questions his credibility at least with the public. So it wasn’t really about the message but the messenger.
The more one listens to Sandy, the more evidence there is that his knowledge of the game – not as an observer but as a front office executive – is limited. I first suspected this when he conducted his first studio interview on SNY after he was hired and taking questions from a phone in audience. When asked about Citi Field’s dimensions in regard to the Mets lack of home run power, he said the players would have to learn how to hit home runs there.
When Sandy is being interviewed about the business of sports, agree with him or not, he comes across completely different, a well educated and experienced individual who knows what he is talking about. Completely different than when talking about the subject of baseball.
Some question why I bring up his Oakland years. When he was hired by the Mets, we were bombarded with public relations hype on how he built the great Oakland clubs through his great baseball mind and vision. What the Mets could not say was that – at the urging of Selig of course – he was hired for his legal, business and financial expertise to keep the club solvent enough for the Wilpons to retain ownership and not forced to sell it.
How can anybody who watched his interview last night, or others in the press box throughout the season, believe this is the same individual credited as being the architect of those great Oakland teams?
Joey D: I think you forgot to mention Bill Rigney by name.
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Literally!
Hi Fonzie,
Once you stop rolling with laughter on the floor, read what I wrote to Jessep and perhaps then you can understand why his stint at Oakland had to be raised. It was the only credentials we had to go on.
Would you hire somebody without checking his or her credentials? That’s the first step any employer does. And have you never known employers to later on question the validity of those same past credentials after seeing the quality of work performed not being up to par the past work presented in one’s portfolio?
In this case, it is obviously not the employers doing their vetting but the fans for the argument has always been for what reason was Sandy was hired for – not the public perception spun by the media relations department but the actual one.
Re-examining his Oakland years was one way of vetting to find out the real reason, one way or the other. That is called research.
Now, with Sandy having nearly two years on the job, the researching doesn’t need to go that far back.
Now continue with your rolling on the floor and just try to avoid getting skin burns.
No thanks Joey. Knowing how incorrect you’ve been regarding the Oakland A’s and your constant false assumptions and weak conjecture with no facts to back you up, I’ll pass from wasting any more of my valuable time reading your BS posts. Everybody knows what he did in Oakland, well mostly everybody knows and what he did there has no rellevance to the Mets in any way shape or form but you go ahead with your obsession, have fun, no matter how wrong you are, it’s your right if you want to waste your time distorting facts from 30 years ago.
Sorry Fonzie,
But by avoiding the question about his credentials and only providing comments of no substance instead of thought out answers shows you are acting like a politician who either has no answers or is attempting to distract others from asking those questions themselves.
So again, why does Sandy give astute and detailed answers when it comes to business and cannot do the same when asked questions regarding the game itself? Why does he come across as two different types of people?
I don’t give any more answers because I’ve given you enough information over the last 6 months to where you can write his biography but your agenda is so driven you purposely avoid the facts and you are not man enough to admit you were wrong so you dwell on false claims day after day until you find someone to believe all your BS and all you have done is make a fool out of yourself to where you are getting on other readers last nerve by constantly rehashing the Oakland A’s from 30 years ago. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. You seem so pathetic. Hard to believe you are the age you say you are. Hard to believe.
LOL, Jessep
It’s because the focus is on Sandy Alderson and the credentials he brings to the front office and now that we have enough time to judge him based solely on his work with the Mets, I have learned that bringing up the subject of Bill Rigney at this point only serves as a diversion from those questions about Sandy.
Sandy has had enough time for which he can be judged on his work with New York whereas before, all we had to go by was the credentials attributed to him in Oakland and that was why Rigney had to brought into the equation. We’ve now had close to two years to judge him and though you do have a valid point that in some aspects two years might not be enough time to fully evaluate what he is doing, it is more than ample enough to get to an understanding of his knowledge or lack of it and where his strengths are. That’s why I mentioned the two different types of interviews – when it comes to the business, financial and legal aspects of sports just from the way he talks it is obvious he is astute in these areas. But when it comes down to an actual focus on the sport itself, we see a completely different type of individual, one who certainly appears as not being the astute person he is on the business end.
One also recognizes the legal double-talk catching up with him (as pointed out with his explanation of why he did not trade Reyes during the middle of last season) so it is also a matter of at least his public credibility (how he conducts himself behind closed doors I am sure is much different).
So now we have enough time to judge Sandy Alderson in New York, and that includes deciphering what his specific role is with the Mets really is due to a better understanding of the Wilpon economic situation and Sandy’s non-player personnel experience during his thirty year career in baseball. Who did what at Oakland really does become irrelevant except for us historians of the game for the question would have been answered in part due to nothing more than the elimination process, pro or con.
Bring up Oakland, but I look at what he did in SD and a better metric fro his performance. Sadly, he took a winning team and turned them into 60 win team.
You just hit the nail on the Rigney head there USMF….
They don;t want to talk about it merely because they don’t want to accept the fact that the only good thing on Sandy’s resume is the 89 WS A’s and they really don’t want to deal with the fact that he got an A for that because Rigney did the homework for him!
Sandy would be a great GM if he had another Rigney to advise him….
DePo is no Rigney!
And all the crap on Sandy and DePo’s resume proves that!
Which is why they really hope to avoid any mention of Rigney because it blows Sandy’s resume into the dumper if they can’t use it as part of his “TRACK RECORD” “SUCCESSFUL” “PROVEN” cliches when describing Sandy!
The only thing Sandy has proven is he doesn’t like to spend and he’s better at gutting payroll than winning championships!
Hi Metsie,
If Fonzie was rolling on the floor with laughter when Jessep asked why I didn’t mention Bill Rigney, I’m afraid he going to get a hernia laughing at what you just mentioned…..
Questions, questions, questions – that is the only way one can find out anything. And the more Sandy appears in the Ralph Kiner broadcast booth, the more questions he raises about his professional baseball knowledge beyond that of a fan, observer or team executive. How can show such astuteness as a business man and not talk about the game at the same level?
Yes that was quite hilarious. It’s easy to see why you two get along so well You guys are number 1 and 1A as top notch BS artists.
Yes Fonzie everyone is a BS artist except the guy who says there are only 16 teams in the MLB!
NOW I”m ROFLMAO!
Hows that show leather taste dude?
Nope, not everyone just you two.
Yes because 16 teams in the MLB and Reyes and Beltran were not All Stars in 2011 are the gods honest truth!
Thats your story and your sticking to it!
Maybe if I actually said there were only 16 teams in all of MLB and that Beltran and Reyes weren’t Allstars in 2011 that would be true but since I said neither of those things all you keep doing is proving how full of shit you are. 16 NL teams. See the difference? This is exactly why you flame out every thread. Word twisting!
You did I said the Mets were ranked 25th and you replied they couldn’t be as there are only 16 teams in the league…
You guys made my day today. I’ve really enjoyed the repartee. But I do think the anti-Sandy thing is getting a little threadbare. For those of you who are looking for a formulaic way to judge Sandy, you’ll be forever disappointed. Any smart executive who uses subtlety and marketing skills is probably just protecting his, and his team’s legitimate interests. A few knuckle scrapers — none of you guys — on this site are just too simplistic to understand Sandy’s or any baseball executive’s challenges. Baseball is basically an analog game of on-field plays. The front office decisions can now be captured for posterity and allow any interested fan to analyze, bisect, and set exacting standards that no one in management can repeatedly meet.
A comparison of Sandy to a performing classical pianist has much to recommend it. Nowadays, consumers want the pianist to be ‘note perfect.’ We have digital tools to help support our opinions. Yet years ago, the greatest performer in the recent century, Vladimir Horowitz, was hardly note perfect while he ran the keyboard. Even so, his performances were legendary. He produced great recitals. The goal of Sandy is to be effective in the roles assigned to him by whomever — Fred or Bud. So despite the endless rhetoric and cross-barbs here on MMO, the Sandy story is developing and has not yet been completed. I don’t give a hoot if what he said on an unscripted interview in September matches perfectly with his thought three month earlier. Why would anyone care? Give the man the space his challenge demands. Otherwise you’ll be disappointed.
Hi Metsie and Des,
Both you guys gave me a chuckle with your analogies and I’d like to share them with you.
Metsie, when you talked about a mirror image, remember the Three Stooges episode when there was a wolfman in the hotel and a woman screamed at Curly yelling out “wolf, wolf”? Of course, there is a BROKEN MIRROR in which the wolfman stood behind of and when Curly went to take a look to be sure he really wasn’t so frightening to look at…., well, you can guess he was shocked and couldn’t believe that was his mirror image! He even said “that can’t be me!”
Des, on the old Adam West Batman series, Liberace himself played the role of the world’s greatest concert pianist – he was actually perfect. Bruce and Dick are listening to a radio broadcast of him while camping in the woods – taking a break from being Batman and Robin. Not knowing that Liberace was also a crook, the pianist purposely hit one wrong key – and with that, both Bruce and Dick realized something had to be terribly wrong for that to occur that called for Batman and Robin!
BTW – my brother did study music at Juliard Prep and the Manhattan School of Music and can pick up on those things. He once pointed out the mistake he heard of one orchestral woodwind player starting his passage one bar too soon and quickly stopping. I was unable to pick it up until several plays later, but who else would have even noticed?
But as far as Sandy, I still think the Mets are in the stage of getting their economic house in order and that is where the primary focus is of Sandy at this point. So IMHO this period in time one cannot be judged for the way baseball matters are being handled on an overall basis.
Holy Mortgage Payment, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Hi USFM,
Sandy was the CEO and limited partner in San Diego and was not involved in the day to day operations of player management.
A while back Joe D. mentioned that I raised a very good question as to why no other team ever approached Sandy about being it’s general manager after he left Oakland. Not one team did he ever interview for during the eight years between Oakland and San Diego. Not one.
Fonzie did post some articles about teams believed to have had interest in Sandy during that time but those articles only contained rumors with no evidence to back up the claims – no statements from team officials, no statements from Sandy and no details about a selection process with his name appearing on the list of those being interviewed – information that is routinely made public by the clubs in question. I have never come across an interview in which Sandy himself makes reference to having been approached or having turned down offers from other teams – if one can be located it would be appreciated for at least it will provide evidence that his services were indeed sought after by teams other than San Diego in which he was not hired to be the general manager.
Actually I did show an article with the writer saying that he was hotly persued for quite a few jobs but being how full of BS you are you’re now going to say it was just a rumor. LMAO You are so full of BS it isn’t even funny. Pretty sad as a matter of fact. It seems you are quite jealous of Sandy. Did someone pass you up for a GM job? lol
Yes Fonzie,
That article mentioned Baltimore and yet gave no quotes from anyone associated with the team, even in the form of un-named sources and nor has his name appeared on press releases from clubs when they were conducting interviews.
All to often we hear of rumors that are unsubstantiated. Provide links that are, even if it’s just a quote from an un-named source. Always answering back with personal attacks might make people look bad but let’s see how much it affects the points they’ve been raising.
The disrespect of some people goes without even a hint of warnings for some people…
Look we have to deal with the fact that with Freddy (talk to Sandy) Wilpon taking a backseat now, how nice for him, that means …..OMG…Jeffy’s in charge and that has to scare the crap out of you. When you think that we’ve had 2 ownerships in over 50 years and during that half century you could only really once be totally confident that we’d win today and that was in 86. As much as I loved the miracle if you really looked at that team you knew it was just that….a miracle. So once again as true diehards we will do what we always do….PRAY for Alderson and hope in this winter of our discontent he and his team J.P. and DePo have done there homework and act accordingly.
Nothing upset me more than when he said he still felt he made the right decision in holding onto Reyes rather than trading him for prospects last year, because he thought they had a chance at resigning him. Everything the Mets did and didn’t do in the offseason indicates that they were never going to have the money to resign him. We’re not dumb Sandy! Don’t talk down to us or lie to us!
Hi PG,
Exactly why I felt it was important to address that part of the interview. It’s an issue of credibility and this has been a point of contention with the Wilpon family even before Sandy came on board. Can understand why he said what he did last night – he could never say we didn’t trade Reyes because it would have been a public relations nightmare that would have resulted in the fans staying away in droves (which happened, anyway).
What he said was another example of lawyer spin which could not be construed legally as a lie or deception since he used the word “hope” but it is not reflective of the truth nevertheless. But I agree, it’s still an insult to our intelligence and what the Met organization does not understand is that actions like these are turning more and more of the fan base off – not the way that the team itself has performed this season other than for the period of weeks when their play reflected just punching in the clock (not entirely all their fault due to the lack of spirit which we now know came in part from the team feeling it was kicked in the teeth).
That’s why I mentioned Billy Beane – at least he is honest with the situation with the Oakland fan base about why he had to trade Geo Gonzalez. Though he tried to put the best light on it by talking about the prospects he obtained and how it was going to close some holes, he did not evade the issue that the Gonzalez trade was inevitable because of the arbitration issue.
A PERSONAL MESSAGE TO JOE D.
Can you please ask Fonzie to again rise from above what you once referred to as gutter talk. There is no justification for him calling anyone pathetic and saying he actually feels sorry for him.
You had to call him out on that once and it seems you have to do that again. As you know, Jessep and I have the same disagreements and yet things are so pleasant enough between us to where we can joke about it.
I know, too many have advised me to just ignore his type.
Thanks as always.
A personal message to Joey D. Stop with the obsession and move on with life. Your boring us to sleep.No one cares about the late Bill Rigney’s adventures in the broadcast booth and golf handicap.
Hi Joe,
Know this is a little bit late but did anyone notice during that interview how Sandy implied it was a group decision not to send Davis down earlier this year? I thought it was the front office that wanted him demoted and that the manager and coaches – with the support of the players – talked him out of it.
An honest way of talking about talking about that t decision would have been acknowledging his people down on the field caused him to change his mind, admitting that he was wrong and those who were making the case for Davis were right.
But again, lawyer double-talk. It was indeed a group decision but he is misleading the public about his role by avoiding the issue that he was one of those who wanted Davis sent down.
This casual remark by itself is not so important nor would it be necessary to even mention it on my part except that when taken into context with all the other issues he has twisted around it again comes down to the question of his own public credibility and personal integrity. Either he doesn’t understand that many of the fans see through his select choice of words to paint different pictures or that he simply doesn’t see it in himself that he is not being honest with people.
Interesting since Sandy and Terry both had announced that they had no plans on sending Ike down. But hey, you’ve never been accused of posting facts now.
http://risingapple.com/2012/06/07/if-ike-davis-gets-demoted-whos-on-first/
Hi Fonzie,
I was going by memory with this based on reports that I recall going on at the time but have not been able to substantiate this, finding mostly stories about Terry Collins and nothing about the split I remember being reported.
Perhaps I was confusing it with the Mike Pelfrey situation last March when some wanted him released and others didn’t.
In any event, since I am unable to substantiate what I thought was being reported at the time I made a mistake, wrongly accused Sandy Alderson of doing something he obviously didn’t, and apologize to both Sandy and those at MMO for making a statement about something that seems (unless I find information to the contrary) I got my facts wrong.
This was my fault and these is no excuse for it . I did not bother to do my own research to confirm what I thought I remembered.
As others know, I do indeed attach links and quotes to back up my opinions unlike what you accuse me of. This time I failed to at least vet myself before making such an accusation, jumping upon my admitted mistrust of Sandy Alderson’s public statements without giving him a fair chance. And with that you are right.
I am not perfect. I get things wrong just like everyone else I will not attempt to find some sort of quote that could be spun to give what I said a false sense of credibility.
I am also man enough to admit when I am wrong which, of course, is something you do not have to worry about because you are always perfect So go ahead and enjoy this at my expense. I set myself up for it and have to take my lumps.
It was stated in an interview with Sandy on the Air Joey!
Hi Metsie,
Thanks for at least giving me some hope that my memory was not going on me.
I’ve been looking for a link to that interview, hoping one of could find it. Meanwhile, until proven otherwise, I will admit to be being wrong on this issue.
Interesting how you use an article from AFTER the time in question to argue with someone who was talking about BEFORE the decision was made to NOT send Ike down!
Tell us what was discussed on air Mr Twista Word. Tell us if Ike went down to the minors or not.
Actually, Sandy admitted there was consideration about sending Davis down.
“.We actually thought the easier thing to do at the time was to send him down. I think a couple other prominent players, Lind and Gaby Sanchez, were sent down too. The precedent was set but we just didn’t feel it was right in our situation and it paid off for us with Ike.”
But was Terry in agreement with that? At the time he said:
“This game is not easy. If he is going to be an outstanding major league player he has got to learn to fight through some tough times. Every time somebody goes into a slump we’re not sending them out. They have to learn to fight and fight through it, grind out at-bats and make it work and learn how to adjust.”
“He’s not going to learn how to adjust if he’s in Buffalo,’’
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/citi_sticker_BcXKonPU636C3FpZEOYSxL
At least now we can say there was a disagreement on what inital action to take based on these conflictng comments. Quoting…..
“The decision was made after a long discussion that included Sandy Alderson, Terry Collins, and the rest of the coaching staff. They have decided that even though Ike Davis has continued his season-long slump, he will not be sent down to the minor leagues in the immediate future.”
….does not mean there was initial agreement. Sandy said it was considered as an option. Terry says it would not have been a good option. Who was saying what behind the closed doors? That still has to be researched but now there is enough factual evidence to get me at least partially off the hook. It might still not have been Sandy so I’m not going to accuse him again of misleading people, but we do have to find who were the ones who wanted Ike sent down.
And getting back to the original point, Sandy talking about the importance of the PPPA as a team approach, there is this:
” Everyone knew what Davis was capable of, however, no one knew how to get Davis back to his 2011 days. Except for Dave Hudgens and Terry Collins. While Davis continued to slump, he wasn’t seeing the ball well at all. Swinging at garbage in the dirt, away from him, inside; any pitch not in strike zone, Davis would swing at. That’s when Davis got the OK to swing first pitch, even with Dave Hudgens coaching his patient approach at the plate. They were hoping for more first pitch fastballs that Davis could turn on. He wouldn’t get the fastball or a strike all the time, but when he did, he would be able to make contact with it. The first thing Collins wanted out of Davis was to put the ball in play. After that, they could worry about situational hitting and where to place the ball.”
http://newyorksportsworld.com/2012/07/29/ike-davis-remarkable-return.aspx
Davis had to get the OK to swing at the first pitch? Shows the one who made that decision to begin with fouled things up more than making things better.
Yeah consideration. As there should’ve been consideration the way he looked. He looked like he didn’t belong in the Major Leagues. But the bottom line is they hung with him and kept him up with the team. You guys are like squirells looking for nuts. Mickey Mantle was once sent down. Roy Halladay was once sent down. Big deal!
Fonzie, what we are saying was that there was a DISPUTE on what to do. And that it appears Terry Collins wanted him to work it out in the majors while Sandy said – and I quote:
“We actually thought the easier thing to do at the time was to send him down”.
Yes, we all agree the bottom line was that the Mets didn’t send him down. That doesn’t take into consideration, however, the steps that led to that decision nor the arguments made pro and con. Since Terry said sending him down to the minors wouldn’t help while Sandy said they thought the easiest thing to do was to indeed send him down, to imply that everyone was on the same page just doesn’t pan out.
And it is not so much who felt what but that with all the other misleading and contradicting statements Sandy has said, this over-simplification only re-inforces the lingering doubt in the way he describes things since his explanation of the Davis situation is representative of a behavioral pattern at least with the public.
Not to mention the fact that Sandy’s insistance on working more into the pitch count actually prolonged Ike’s slump when finally he was told to swing at the first pitch.
Can you nitpick just a little more. Why don’t you plant a bug in his office so you can continue to dissect every step he takes and every word he says. I don’t get the obsession. The things you choose to pick apart are totally mundane.
Yourthe guys nitpickin…
Everyone heard Sandy’s interview, Added to the quotes from Terry it’s obvious the coaches wanted to keep Ike here and the FO (prob not Sandy but DePo and Ricciadi) wanted to send him down!
Truth is you were one of the few that agreed with whoever it was that wanted to send him down…
I have an article on record stating otherwise!
Joey D. — “Sandy’s insistance on working more into the pitch count…”
Sandy didn’t say what you claim. He wants them to hit the first pitch each batter can handle. He doesn’t want them to necessarily take a hittable pitch and then go after a less desirable pitch when they are deep into a count. At least that is what Sandy claims he said.
Save yourself the time Des. Joey has one mission here. To nitpick every little thing Alderson eats, drinks, says,etc… It’s never ending.
Hi Des,
If that is so, then I am confused about one thing. Why did Sandy refer to the drop in that PPPA? Wouldn’t such a factor then be irrelevant as Metsie has pointed out?
Oh, by the way Fonzie, you were once asked by the owner of this blog to rise above the level of the sewer. Guess you are still working on it.
Are you drunk Joey? Nothing I said would be considered in “The Gutter”. You can’t be serious. Go find something Sandy did wrong in Vietnam. I’m sure you’ll find something. He may have farted en route to Saigon.
He didn’t say what you claim either…
All Sandy has ever referred to as “THE APPROACH” but he has never explained fully what that approach is…Hudgens has touched on it a few times And his most telling quote is it’s about WAITING for your pitch not anything about swinging at strikes!
I am not a SA lover or hater. His grade is incomplete but this offseason is his test and if not his legacy then his defining moment as Mets GM. There are no do overs. SA as did a lot of fans thought Ike should be sent down. If Ike being perceived to be “uncoachable” that is even more reason. The decision which SA had the final say was not to send Ike down. If an organization has everyone on the same page then you need just one man operation. The bottom line Ike did it his way (no one ruined his swing as of today). He has recvoved from a terrible injury and any Valley Fever effects. SA deserves the credit for not sending him down because he listend to his subordiates opinions and ultimately made the correct decision.
Hi Hotstreak,
“SA deserves the credit for not sending him down because he listend to his subordiates opinions and ultimately made the correct decision.”
Exactly. If nothing else, it was Sandy taking the advice of others to formulate his decision. Which is also a point a few of us make about Sandy being the face or spokesperson of the club and not necessarily the one directing it from the top.
Yes Hotstreak you are absoloutly correct that the final decision made was the correct one (one of the few we have seen in two years)
What people don’t seem to understand (and Joey has tried to point out to those who reply with nothing more than vitriol) is Sandy is NOT a baseball evaluator even he does not claim that as his strength.
He relies on his Baseball advisors and back in the day he had a good one in Rigney but since he died Sandy has relied on guys who are just not any good at it!
And when the wrong decisions are made it isn’t so much that Sandy screwed up other than to go with the guys who don’t know any better!
Those guys were WRONG about Ike and Sandy went against them and won!
Maybe he should think about that before he tries to upgrade that bullpen a third time in a row considering how well his BASEBALL ADVISERS advised him the previous two times!
Hi Metsie,
Thanks again for pointing out that I wasn’t making a claiming but following up on Sandy’s own words as provided by Joe D. But in fairness to Des, at least he said the same about sandy by adding the rider “At least that is what Sandy claims he said”.
But this discussion furthers the evidence that being an analytical type cannot turn an inexperienced individual into a decision making baseball professional for, if anything, his emphasis on a declining PPPA shows Sandy’s shortcomings with an inability to recognize the focus has to be on the artistic side and not the statistical one. Sandy did not talk about it terms of individuals but it in terms of a “team” approach. I am sure if he did a study of that stat he would find some hit better with a higher PPPA and others with a lower one.
Because of that, one should allow the individual to be coached in a manner according to his individual talent. In fact, the whole question of the PPPA in relation to a team is irrelevant except on the damage that can be caused when enforced as a team approach. We’ve seen that with the example I provided regarding Ike Davis.
As far as Ike not being sent down, someone in that group had to initially think the easiest thing would be to just send him down. It wasn’t Terry Collins, at least according to what the manager said. It would be surprising if the one who analyzes stats was the one who didn’t want him shipped out – wouldn’t it?
Joey you know why Sandy mentioned PPPA?
Cause thats what DePo told him!
As I always say…Garbage in…Garbage Out!
“Are you drunk Joey? Nothing I said would be considered in “The Gutter”. You can’t be serious. Go find something Sandy did wrong in Vietnam. I’m sure you’ll find something. He may have farted en route to Saigon>
Hi Fonzie,
No, I went out and found something much more appropriate to the conversation instead about “Mr. North Jersey, USMF, Vinny B. – Thank you for debating with class and not going into the gutter ever” followed by ” Fonzie – Follow Vinny, MNJ and USMF’s examples. Everyone else, my apologies.”
Yes, I am serious. This is the full post – from the sole owner of the website:
“Joe D August 26, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Damn, almost a half hour of my Sunday sifting through 130 comments mostly about arguing semantics or refusing to give one person credit while taking it away from another.
Mr. North Jersey, USMF, Vinny B. – Thank you for debating with class and not going into the gutter ever. Thank for also agreeing to disagree and ending your disagreement on positive notes.
Maniac – You have your email now.
Metsie, Jessep, Fonzie – Follow Vinny, MNJ and USMF’s examples.
Everyone else, my apologies.”
- to which you replied then as you do now:
“Fonzie13 August 26, 2012 at 2:25 pm
What do you mean Joe? There were no insulting comments at all from me or Jessep.”
It’s a shame that you can’t see this in yourself and that it came to the point that someone in charge had to tell you to follow others by not going into the gutter.
This is my take on the whole question of how those on MMO should deal with each other. If the parties involved agree to fight it out with each other using insulting personal remarks directed at the other, than that is fair. If one does not want to participate on that level, and has stated it repeatedly, that is more than just unfair – it is vicious.
And what does this have to do with saying you’re nitpicking. That’s in the gutter? OK, since you keep saying I’m in the gutter I’m now going to take a step into the gutter. Grow a pair already and act your age too while you’re at it. If you don’t like your misinformation called out then that’s just too bad for as long as you continue to speww out misinformation I’m going to call you out on it. Shalom!
Fonzie,
No need to add anything, you are making the case for cyber-bullying splendidly on your own.
I hope you take the opportunity to read the attached so to recognize your behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the New York Mets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberbullying
Cyberbullying? What would you call what Metsie does? Cybermurder? Funny you take no exception to the constant badgering of anybody with a different opinion but if someone calls you out for the garbage you post you go on like a 9 year old who just got reprimanded by the principal. You really are a pathetic individual. You must’ve gotten slapped around as a kid. No backbone whatsoever. Cyberbullying give me a break.
“What would you call what Metsie does? ”
Giving you a taste of your own medicine!
Speaking to you the way you speak to others!
Fighting Fire with Fire!
Hi Metsie,
I hope you know I was not accusing you and Jessep of being cyber-bullies since you both have the tougher skin to go at it with each other in that manner and are sensitive enough not to apply that principle to others who don’t.
That is not the behavior of cyber bullies but of two heavyweight champions going after each other in battle….., I think!
….
Fonzie,
Remember the point I made – Metsie and others seem to have an understanding that they will punch it out with each other so what they do back and forth to each other is fair game for they all are abiding by the same rules. Jessep has it out with Metsie and even though Metsie and I basically are in agreement with things, Jessep doesn’t address me in the same manner he does Metsie because he understands the difference between the two of us regarding how we like to address things.
That is different than one making personal and humiliating attacks at another who does not want to participate in that kind of behavior and instead just wants to participate in a polite debate and disagreement. The link I provided specifically points that out as a characteristic of cyber bulling.
The bottom line is again, your behavior has nothing to do with the New York Mets. Unlike Jessep and Metsie, they know what is and isn’t fair play depending upon the individual. You are not the only one guilty of this – there are many. And we can all be guilty of hurting other’s feelings, intentional or unintentional, but in those are cases of it being the exception and not the rule, as it it is too when one is put into a position to respond in such manner – another point brought out by that link.